1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,520 This is Wendy Montroy and you're listening to Turtle Tea with 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:05,960 TTPG. We're bringing you bite sized 3 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,920 turtle and tortoise species care and husbandry info. 4 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:11,360 This show is brought to you by the Turtle and Tortoise 5 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:13,960 Preservation Group, whose mission is to ensure the 6 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,840 survival of the world's turtles and tortoises through captive 7 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:24,240 breeding. All right. 8 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,440 Today we are talking to Dirk Barnard, the founder of Tortoise 9 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,439 Conservation South Africa and recent keynote speaker at the 10 00:00:32,439 --> 00:00:35,440 TTPG conference about Common Padlopers. 11 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:37,880 And I'm going to let you say the species name because I'm going 12 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,160 to screw it up. Hermopus aureolitus. 13 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,360 Thank you. Welcome, Dirk, and thank you so 14 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,160 much for joining me today. You're actually my first in 15 00:00:47,160 --> 00:00:49,640 person guest. Can you tell me how you got 16 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,720 started with this species? Yeah, it's a. 17 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:54,680 It's a. It's actually a weird story, you 18 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:56,560 know, I was. Probably about 6. 7 They're 19 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,600 around, you know. We we call the rural. 20 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,720 Areas outside of our cities, townships and the nightclubs in 21 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:09,800 those areas we call Shebeens and my dad had a company, basically 22 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,320 a vending company that. They were to drop. 23 00:01:12,320 --> 00:01:14,760 Pool tables and jukeboxes in the Shebeens. 24 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,760 And yeah, a couple of times they've they've been to the 25 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:22,920 Shebeens and they were fully. Loaded with pool tables and 26 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,040 jukeboxes. And they'll ask the locals, you 27 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:26,960 know, we see you carrying a huge tortoise. 28 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,120 Please just don't do anything till to it till next week. 29 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,120 And the next week they come and it's just the shell that's 30 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,040 remains. And So what they initially did 31 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,560 was offered some money loaded. Up the tortoise took it. 32 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:40,440 Home. We actually doctored them a 33 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,760 little bit. Look after them and it wasn't up 34 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,400 until. About 5 or 6 years after that I 35 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:48,120 actually realized. That you need permits. 36 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:52,240 Because tortoises are protected. In South Africa, so yeah, got my 37 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,680 permits and was was able to keep them legally. 38 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,160 And yeah, since then, I've just always tried to be a little bit 39 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,960 more cautious and educate people on the vulnerability of these 40 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:05,240 these animals. You know, if it's if it's an 41 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,920 animal that's. 60 plus years. Old you know it's 3-4 42 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,440 generations that is going to be wiped out to cook one meal. 43 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,880 Yeah, that's sad. Let's take a quick look at their 44 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,160 Natural History. It's always important to 45 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,360 understand that before you try and keep an animal in captivity, 46 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,920 what is their native range and what is the type of climate that 47 00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:29,520 they live in. Yeah, like so the the weird. 48 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,840 Thing is, I would say they're most predominantly in the 49 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,240 Western Cape. As you may know, the Western 50 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:40,160 Cape is the Biome that has the most critically endangered Biome 51 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:41,880 in the world. Renault's that felt there's less 52 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,400 than 4% of it left. It is the Cape Floral Kingdom. 53 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,720 It's the richest floral Kingdom in the world. 54 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,320 Richest bulb. Diversity in the world and we 55 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,440 also have the most succulents in the world, so. 56 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:54,880 Out of those, especially with the. 57 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,760 Succulents, many of them are in the Western Cape if you look at 58 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,240 more into the succulent. Carew where they also occur also 59 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,040 a lot of. Different succulent species then 60 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,160 if you go more to. The easterly side of South. 61 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,120 Africa and the Eastern Cape. You the small. 62 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,280 Part are there you? Do find them Northern Cape, you 63 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,200 find them as well. And the most interesting thing 64 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,760 about these biomes is some of them have winter rainfall, some 65 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,760 of them have summer rainfall, some of them go below freezing 66 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:24,640 point in winter and yeah, some of them even flood in winter. 67 00:03:24,640 --> 00:03:29,320 So very harsh conditions in one sides and very nice conditions 68 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,120 on the other side. So and they're also found along 69 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,200 the coast. So you know the the argument to 70 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,880 be had that you know they are very arid species, even our semi 71 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,200 semi deserts and full blown deserts they. 72 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,600 Do get quite a bit. Of humidity, early morning. 73 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,160 So that's the other. Reason why you'll see wild 74 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,200 populations do not have predominant pyramiding. 75 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,360 Do they deal with extreme heat as well in any parts of the 76 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,480 range? OK, so I'm not going to try and 77 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:57,400 butcher. Your your. 78 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:02,400 Fahrenheit conversions I'd say in excess of 120°F. 79 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,480 Oh my gosh, yeah, that's very. Very hot and then obviously 80 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:11,600 below freezing. Which is 32 so that's pretty 81 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,000 extreme. Do they brewmate at all if it's 82 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:20,240 very cold or if it's dry? Yeah, so basically all reptiles. 83 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:22,760 Are not, you know, full on hibernating reptiles? 84 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,720 Depending on if it's obviously snowing outside you won't see 85 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,080 them. But they'll be very. 86 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,200 Opportunistic. Even in winter, as soon as the 87 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,720 sun comes out and they can bake a little bit in the sun, they'll 88 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,960 do it. It was quite interesting to to 89 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,000 compare, you know, some of our tortoise species in South 90 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,760 Africa. I mean, I was now at the Ashton 91 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,920 Biological Preserve to comparing just a little bit headnotes with 92 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,640 each other on how the. Gopher tortoises actually 93 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,880 excavate. Their own holes and none of our. 94 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,040 Tortoises do that. So they make use of pangolin and 95 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,160 art park and porcupine and so on. 96 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:00,600 Holes, and in many cases you'll see them even with the Cape mole 97 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,160 rats, they'll use some of the holes you know, whether with the 98 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,800 arreolas being such a small species, a friend of mine. 99 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,120 Actually, he takes his cell. Phone with him and has a 100 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,400 connection with a little camera and a wire and then he sits that 101 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:18,560 down and then he actually sees them anchored down in that in 102 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:20,600 the cold at times so. They. 103 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,920 Actually do go in head first into their Burrows and then as 104 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:29,360 soon as you want to even try. Even with my captive ones, if 105 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,600 you're just trying to move them to soak them or anything like. 106 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:33,640 That they basically push forward. 107 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,080 And they try and lock their legs that you can't get them out. 108 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:38,640 Probably some of something like a pancake tortoise. 109 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:40,640 Yeah. And actually, that's a good 110 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,360 point for people that don't know they're one of the world's 111 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:48,520 smallest tortoises. Adult weight, Is it like 150 to 112 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:50,760 300 grams? Does that sound about right? 113 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,560 You know, it's, it's, it's weird, you know, even in the 114 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,160 past few days when I asked people like, do you think 115 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,480 Aldabras are bigger than? Galapagos because there's that 116 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,960 that. Divisive opinions, but again, 117 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,920 you know, I've, I've seen some of the aerial artists that are 118 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,840 considerably bigger than 300 grams, but it's just not the 119 00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:10,200 norm. So many people ask me. 120 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,800 Is South Africa tortoises? And they make a statement. 121 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,480 South Africa tortoises are. Obviously much smaller, smaller 122 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,680 than the Somalian ones and it's not 100% true. 123 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,480 You know, now and then we do get an absolute massive mail and it 124 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,800 just looks historically inaccurate completely. 125 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,400 But again, you you, you go on what's what's in the books and 126 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,600 what's in the daughter And if a random guy from South. 127 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:36,560 Africa tries to tell you. Different you're going to think 128 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:38,240 probably is not telling the truth. 129 00:06:39,280 --> 00:06:42,000 Let's talk about what threats they're facing in the wild. 130 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,720 What are the main things that they have to worry about at this 131 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:46,720 point? OK, so. 132 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,000 You know, no matter what you see on social media, there's, 133 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:55,840 there's always, I always use the analogy that, you know, people 134 00:06:55,840 --> 00:06:58,320 that aren't in Wildlife Conservation have the have the 135 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,880 most to say about Wildlife Conservation and you'll get so 136 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,520 many different news reports and so on, on, on why animals are 137 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,400 facing threats and stuff in the wild 100%. 138 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,360 The biggest threat to. Any tortoise species in South 139 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:18,000 Africa is electrified fencing. I don't, I don't think a lot of 140 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,600 people are aware of that. They're going to say poaching. 141 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,120 Yeah, so. You know, poaching definitely 142 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:28,000 has is a factor. Pay trade is definitely. 143 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,280 A factor, but effectively if you look. 144 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:37,080 At the amount of animals, just the mass amount, you know a lot. 145 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,280 Of people would say. For instance, that fine boss, 146 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,000 you know, some of the guys that may appreciate the little a 147 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,760 little bit more that that for instance, farm with Proteas. 148 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,920 Proteas germinate better when they exposed to smoke for many, 149 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,400 many years. Many people have believed that 150 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,280 once every five years protea forms and fine boss need to be 151 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,440 set alight and it's 100% not true. 152 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:04,320 They've done new studies on it. If you do it anything between 25 153 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,960 and 30 years, every 25 and 30 years, your germination is still 154 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,560 very good. What does happen is cigarettes 155 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,240 and stuff being thrown out of windows and in many cases 156 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:20,760 arsenic fires are started. I didn't don't quote me on this. 157 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:25,120 I think it was 2013 in the West. Coast there was a huge. 158 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,960 Fire. The estimation was over 100,000 159 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,960 angular tortoises died in that fire and that is why I for 160 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,720 instance believe that the angular tortoise, believe it or 161 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,880 not, is currently the most under threat tortoise species in the 162 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,960 Western Cape. Their numbers are much more than 163 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,960 what other tortoises are, but if you look at the amount of babies 164 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,320 hatching in comparison with the amount of. 165 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:47,800 Adults that are. Dying on the. 166 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:52,000 Roads or with. Electrified fencing and other 167 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:56,120 than electrified fencing I would say second, but maybe not in 168 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,400 comparison with fires. But is bite? 169 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,760 Crows and white necked Ravens. We're not becoming migratory 170 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,560 birds anymore. The University of Cape Town did 171 00:09:04,560 --> 00:09:05,920 a. Study a few years ago. 172 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,160 Of the average mean temperature in Cape Town, if you take summer 173 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,720 and winter combined get about 17°C. 174 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,440 That's within about .2. Degrees Celsius of the 175 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,520 preferred. Temperature that crows like, 176 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,680 breeding in the wild. There's obviously roadkill. 177 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,400 Obviously the city is expanding more and more, the rubbish dump 178 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,760 sites are getting bigger, continuous and endless supply of 179 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,600 food and. The issue is that their chicks 180 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,480 are. Becoming more and more adaptable 181 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:39,040 to learn how to predate these animals and to get on that. 182 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,040 Many people would say it's only the small species that are 183 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:43,760 affected, like the aerial artists. 184 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,800 I've personally been close to the West Coast National Park on 185 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,560 a game farm. Where a pied crow picked off the 186 00:09:51,560 --> 00:09:53,920 head of a. Fully grown adult angulate 187 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,400 female tortoise. If I'm remembering correctly, I 188 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:01,040 think the California desert tortoise is having problems with 189 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,960 Ravens as well. Yeah, so the. 190 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,680 The one thing and you know so many. 191 00:10:06,680 --> 00:10:08,960 People have, will have. These kind of questions of, you 192 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,320 know, why aren't you just buying the things that you need and why 193 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,960 aren't you just at the end of the day doing more? 194 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,120 And you know, we all know with any nonprofit. 195 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,560 Your biggest threat is always. Funding and those kind of 196 00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:23,080 things. I'll never say that my biggest 197 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,640 threat is initiative or having a world to work, but at the end of 198 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,480 the day, somebody. Has to pay for these. 199 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:33,120 Kind of technologies, I know for instance in California what they 200 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,480 have done and I have actually started getting. 201 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,680 Quotes for that is to. 3D print fake tortoises and lace them 202 00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:43,520 with a grape vinegar or something that's very bitter and 203 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,600 as soon as the they're just trying to think you I think you 204 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,120 guys. Are Ravens. 205 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:50,840 Just trying to think of the American more American. 206 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,360 Yeah. So when the crow or Raven does 207 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,440 puncture that shell, then it obviously teaches them this is 208 00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,680 extremely bitter. It's not a nice thing to predate 209 00:10:59,680 --> 00:11:03,720 on. And yeah, it's it's everything 210 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:05,640 is. Cool ideas, but. 211 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,720 At the end of the day, everything costs money, so. 212 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,280 We just need to get people with 3D printers crowdfunding and 213 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:13,920 sending you, yeah. Tortoise. 214 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,760 I'll, I'll take take it. With an open hand, you know our 215 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,080 government also will most probably also impose a 30% 216 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:21,240 import. Tax on. 217 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,120 Like they do on all the kind of. Products that we get. 218 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:25,760 Externally, but you know, that's life. 219 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:31,840 So you said electric fences are a big problem, Some poaching. 220 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,280 Obviously predation is a big problem. 221 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:40,000 I know the IUCN listed them as least concerned with their last 222 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:46,240 assessment in 2017, so I'm assuming that maybe they need a 223 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,920 new assessment. Sounds like they're in more 224 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,040 trouble than then we think they are. 225 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,080 Yeah, so the. Assessment you're referring to. 226 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:57,480 That actually published a. Book about that to me on the 227 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,000 creation. I think it was 2023 that book 228 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,640 came out. I do have a full copy of it. 229 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,720 It's. A massive book but to be honest 230 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,480 a lot has happened since 2017. The amount of developments even 231 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:14,960 just around my city and the again, the threat. 232 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,440 With this is the focus. Is more on plants, the focus is 233 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,880 much less on reptiles. I always find it strange. 234 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,800 That people are. In so many cases, so in love 235 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,640 with cats and dogs just like me and you, but for the same time. 236 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:32,840 I always say, what about the little guys? 237 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,480 You. Know that's where I came with 238 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,800 this passion for chelonians and chameleons because at the end of 239 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:41,800 the. Day those two are the. 240 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,800 Species, for me personally, that are the most vulnerable in South 241 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,640 Africa, and there's also a lot of stigma around it. 242 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,480 You know of in many African cultures they believe that 243 00:12:52,560 --> 00:12:55,640 chameleons are deadly toxic if they bite you. 244 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,440 Or if you have a. Tortoise on a chain at your 245 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,080 house. That it keeps spirits away. 246 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,560 And it's it's those kind of educational talks that we need 247 00:13:03,560 --> 00:13:04,800 to. Have with a with a. 248 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,680 Broader public and teach them that you know just because your 249 00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:10,960 grandma said something 50. Years ago it's. 250 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,760 Not necessarily correct. And that's, I mean, if we just 251 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,080 look at at common things, I mean, in the 1950s, you could 252 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,400 buy lion Cubs in in London. And it's just, you know, 253 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:27,160 cultures adept and we have to be the guys that that at least try 254 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,800 as conservationists. To spread the correct. 255 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:34,040 Message and to educate not. Only adults but. 256 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:38,200 The main thing is to focus on children and educate them that 257 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,040 we need these to protect these animals, that if they actually 258 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:42,680 want to see them in the next generation. 259 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:48,000 Are they kept as pets in your area at all or or is it you 260 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,880 fighting the good fight and no one else keeps them? 261 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,320 So look, my, they, they are. I wouldn't. 262 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,040 I would say in my probably in my province, there's probably less 263 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:00,880 than 10 people if it's. That much? 264 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,720 That that keep. Them in my country obviously a 265 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:08,520 little bit more but the the big thing for conservation, if it's 266 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,640 like these you know it's it's it's very similar to what you 267 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:16,200 have in the US You know if somebody in Texas were to and 268 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,560 you miscorrect me, it's the. Texas desert tortoise if. 269 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,000 Somebody were to try and save them like I've been told, 270 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:27,040 relocate them on as soon as they hear that there is development 271 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,560 that's been approved and again, don't quote me on it, but as far 272 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,760 as I know a friend of mine mentioned you if you wanted to 273 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:35,600 do it and remove them from an area. 274 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,360 Where they obviously will die. Out. 275 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,440 Or they will be bulldozed that it's $500 per tortoise that they 276 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,840 do. Relocate now in South Africa. 277 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,560 In many cases, your challenge like this would be and obviously 278 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:51,240 at the end of the day, you know as as. 279 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,280 People that. You guys have a in in my 280 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,120 opinion. A prettier word that you. 281 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,840 Use than conservation and preservation that you just half 282 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,920 get the idea that you're trying to preserve conservation efforts 283 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,080 and obviously. The The diversity of species. 284 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:12,320 But you know, the the big thing for me is when you're working 285 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,880 with these kind of animals and then some very limited numbers 286 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:20,040 and very few people are doing it, you know, there's so many 287 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,000 people that are opposed to people keeping. 288 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:23,480 Reptiles. But where do you? 289 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,440 Think the African animals that you have in your zoos, yeah, are 290 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,160 coming from they come from my country. 291 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,840 I know most of the people that supply them to your country. 292 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:34,520 You know, it's, it's not like there's just a. 293 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,880 Little factory that that these. Animals are coming from and the 294 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,760 the issue that I have is if there's less and less people in 295 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,800 my community and I I fully. Supported that that it should be 296 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:47,880 regulated with. Permits and all that, but at 297 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,080 least you need to give the people the opportunity to prove 298 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,880 be proven wrong and if three different people are working 299 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:55,240 with them. Every few. 300 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,880 Years I can change out one of my males with one of these and at 301 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,440 least then you have clean bloodlines and good genetic 302 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,200 diversity in your in your breeding group. 303 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:06,080 Yeah. And the more people you have 304 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,120 doing that, the better as far as diversity goes. 305 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:14,800 So I'm assuming that they are not being imported to the US or 306 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,720 other countries at this point. As far as I know there has been 307 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:23,800 2 imports in the past 18 months into the US with aerial artist. 308 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,280 You know, at least the one good thing is, you know, pre 2000 309 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,400 and. 4 You could still actually legally. 310 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,080 Export some of the wild caught animals out of South Africa, the 311 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,360 US and many other countries. Actually did receive. 312 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:41,680 Some of the stock, most of them did not make it and what I at 313 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,840 least try and do in in building my network. 314 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,440 Is at a later stage. When I have more stock is to try 315 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,200 and have conversation with with zoos and people that are 316 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,000 willing. To have stud. 317 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,200 Books and that is to reach out to them and say I will be 318 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,200 willing to. Supply you with species. 319 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,720 And in the end of the day, it's not ego buying, it's actually 320 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,000 supplying somebody with new genetic diversity. 321 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,839 They can supply me with other species and you know, the one 322 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:09,800 nice thing at least is you can keep. 323 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:11,960 The the species that. You've always wanted to do you 324 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,280 can keep it with the good conscience, clean conscience, 325 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,880 but at the end of the day you are helping the species. 326 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,440 The the only other thing and I and I did mention this in my 327 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,000 talk, which might be slightly controversial. 328 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:29,520 What I would like to see, at least in in the pet trade, is. 329 00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:32,280 That if we. Were to work with different 330 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,000 species and say for instance I work. 331 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,720 With with Pixies. Arachnoides, or whatever the 332 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,200 case is an endangered species. It does make things. 333 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,480 Difficult if you work with. Certain governments like 334 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:44,600 Madagascar. Or South. 335 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,440 Africa, where they promise money will not be faulted out, and it 336 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,920 does that. It's a registered organization, 337 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:56,160 a registered MPO, and if you make $500 in one year selling 338 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,400 tortoise species, that 5% of that money. 339 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,160 Gets allocated to. That nonprofits and that it. 340 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,520 Actually directly. Goes back into Wildlife 341 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,840 Conservation in the wild. Of preserving land or. 342 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,240 Yeah. All right, so let's let's dive 343 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,880 into captive care. Do you find them hard to keep, 344 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,840 or would you say they're kind of like a beginner species? 345 00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:22,320 I wouldn't necessarily say they are a beginner. 346 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,040 Species purely because they diet, but I would say that 347 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,120 they're easier. Than the angular tortoise to 348 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:30,640 keep and they are less susceptible to NBD. 349 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:37,200 So yeah, they're the biggest. Thing and it's, you know, I'm. 350 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:42,000 Obviously very appreciative of the the fact that I could visit. 351 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,840 Your country and see a diverse range and especially the 352 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,200 Terrapin species that you guys have that's much bigger than 353 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,640 ours. But for me, always the the big 354 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,960 thing with. These tortoises is a diet. 355 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,600 Diverse diet and that's what I like for instance with 356 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,000 Cappadolla forms that if you buy products from them they have a 357 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,440 whole list of different products you can buy it's not like a 358 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,000 Missouri type pellet with just one staple and that's it you 359 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,880 know some days you can give a little bit more hibiscus than 360 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,360 you could give plantain a little bit more stinging nettle that 361 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:17,000 you give hibiscus you know it's proper very diet the one of the 362 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,440 big things is succulents should. Be a part of their. 363 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,000 Diet, and I think this is where where. 364 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,000 People start to to. Lean a little bit away from 365 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:27,680 reality, if I can call it that, you know? 366 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:29,680 A lot of people. Are opposed completely to 367 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,640 carbohydrate rich. Diets which I'd agree to. 368 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:34,800 To an extent. But a lot of the. 369 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,360 Succulents that we find are quite rich in carbohydrates and 370 00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:41,160 it's something that they do need in their diet and require. 371 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,960 So yeah, I mean, there was a couple of things I did wrong in 372 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:46,440 the post. I don't understand why they're 373 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:48,160 not breeding. Temperature was one of them. 374 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:53,920 Moved to a new place, Room got very, very cold below 15°. 375 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,680 Sorry. Below it was about 5. 376 00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:59,920 Degrees in winter, I know for you guys in the States, you're 377 00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:03,280 not going to be able to fathom that with your central heating 378 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,480 and all that and then obviously. Adjusted the diet that. 379 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,080 It's more suitable to what they get in in the wild and 380 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,400 fertility. Everything went up and today 381 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,200 they're breeding quite rapidly. Do you keep them singly as 382 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:16,920 adults, or do you keep them in groups? 383 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:22,480 Well, usually with my adults my males are quite relatively well 384 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:24,960 behaved. In the past I have had males 385 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,360 that are. Not so well behaved so. 386 00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:31,840 I usually keep them in groups of two females and 1 male and then 387 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:36,640 just occasionally then I rotate the males and yeah, nothing, 388 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,560 nothing too special, but I'd say probably the most important 389 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,920 factor where that in some cases they'll only lay. 390 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:48,920 Eggs if there is an. Overhang of slate or stone or 391 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,080 some they want. That cover for the eggs. 392 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,200 And they'll feel secure laying under it. 393 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,040 Sometimes they don't lay. I mean, I've got a female that 394 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,920 will only lay under the slate, and I've got another female 395 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:02,480 that's opportunistic. Sometimes it's completely in the 396 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,640 open and I think it's. Also to do with a predatory 397 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,960 threat. You know, but more more 398 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:11,280 interesting than that is you know, if. 399 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,040 There's a felt fire. Many people will. 400 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,560 Always say afterwards you know. The animals have no chance in 401 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:18,400 hell. That they could. 402 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,360 They could live. And then you go afterwards and a 403 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,000 couple of them have survived because they'll literally Nestle 404 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,760 themselves under. The thick brush, but. 405 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,200 Under a huge, massive boulder. And the boulder will absorb. 406 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,760 Most of that heat and the bottom part will not obviously be past 407 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,400 boiling point, but in some cases you'll see the keratin is a 408 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,320 little bit damaged, it'll look more brown and in some cases. 409 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,960 It'll start. Literally peeling off, but 410 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,440 perseverance. Do you keep them outdoors or 411 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,200 indoors or do you do rotation or? 412 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,600 OK, so there with. All my my smaller ones, even 413 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,000 with angular tortoises as well, I keep them indoors. 414 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,640 With at least the first. Three years of their life in 415 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,760 winter and in summer, dependent on the weather like I mentioned, 416 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:09,240 the Western Cape is can be diverse, can look very nice and 417 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,840 sunny in the morning and rainy in the afternoon, especially in 418 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,040 my area. So I will have. 419 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,880 I find the easiest thing is to have very large meat crates and 420 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:21,680 you can carry that in and outdoors. 421 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:27,120 The most important thing with that is obviously not to have 422 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:32,120 too much sun and too much water. So always have a proper shelter. 423 00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:36,600 Over the the meat crates and also very important is have a 424 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,440 couple of holes drilled in that. Meat crate. 425 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,960 So if you were, if you were to just. 426 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,720 Go out for coffee and something and forget about them and it 427 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,840 starts raining. You're not going to have 428 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:47,680 floating tortoises when you get back home. 429 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:53,120 Yeah, and what's the approximate size of their enclosures as 430 00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:56,400 adults? As adults, I'd say about. 2 431 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:01,600 meters by 1m is. Probably the best that you at. 432 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,760 Least that you can offer and then just a lot of different 433 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,280 little hiding spots. They do like little nooks and 434 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,240 crannies that they can actually go in. 435 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,560 Like I mentioned, they do like going in head 1st and physically 436 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:15,720 when you were to pull. Them out, they they. 437 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,440 Wet themselves in. I always wonder how. 438 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,640 The heck they get out of it because it looks like a very, 439 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,920 very. Tight, cramped spot, but yeah. 440 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,080 And nothing, nothing too serious or anything like that. 441 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,960 Obviously artificial lighting, very, very important component. 442 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,600 It's something that I'm struggling to get sponsorship 443 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,000 on. So if you maybe know of anybody 444 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,560 that's that's interested in that, they can hit me up, but. 445 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,800 So you have UV and heat lights for? 446 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,160 Them so I've got on. Both the. 447 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,080 East and the West side of the enclosures. 448 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,360 I've got a heat bulb. It's interesting to see that 449 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,680 predominantly the one side. They just use for. 450 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:57,120 Basking the other side, they use more for laying eggs and yeah, 451 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,560 soil depth you're looking at about I'd say in your terms, 452 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,200 you'll talk about 5 inches. At 12:12 plus. 453 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,720 Centimeters and I mean it's a sink, it's a species that the 454 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,280 females. Really, get above. 1112 455 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,960 centimeters. So yeah, that's that's one of 456 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,640 the reasons why I like keeping them indoors, not just for their 457 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:23,120 size, but purely because of my area, like I mentioned, my my 458 00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:25,080 area within 20 square kilometers. 459 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,400 Of George, the city. In the Western Cape there's no 460 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,080 natural tortoise species found. It is predominantly wet. 461 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,640 We at the bottom side of a mountain just on the other side 462 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,960 of the mountain closer to the succulent Carou. 463 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,920 It is semi desert area so. All the clouds hit that. 464 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,200 Mountain and they don't go. Over, so they stick. 465 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,360 Over my house. So you get a lot of downpours 466 00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:49,200 and. It's, it's more, it's, it's more 467 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,200 just lower temperatures and very little UV. 468 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,400 And, you know, in the past I have tried it. 469 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,560 And then you get animals that learn more to respiratory 470 00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,680 infection. Obviously they don't want to 471 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,320 breed. They're not happy. 472 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,680 They get a little bit more lethargic. 473 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,080 They eat less. And since I've moved them 474 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,000 indoors, you know the the big thing is not to have them with. 475 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,240 Overheated with lights. Twice a week just missed them 476 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,120 lightly and I've got a Fogger in my room just to raise the 477 00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:19,720 ambient humidity because I find that especially with with some 478 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,360 of the countries. That I've at least visited. 479 00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:23,840 To see the husbandry. That there's. 480 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,640 So much focus on providing heat, but it's extremely dry heat. 481 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,800 Like desiccating? Yeah, it's like. 482 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,120 A. 100 watts on each side or 100 watts plus. 483 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,960 But there's no form of, you know, in many cases, the water 484 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:40,600 bowl. Will be dry but they they 485 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,720 literally did fill that water bowl a couple. 486 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:47,000 Hours back but it's just so much evaporation so yeah, I'd. 487 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,360 Always suggest, especially with your. 488 00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:51,560 Hatchlings, my hatchlings. I've got heat lights. 489 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,440 But coupled to the heat. Lights and the timer is a Fogger 490 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,760 running. So basically from 8:00 in the 491 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,480 morning till 7:00 or so at night, OK, there's a Fogger 492 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,880 running. I know we touched a little bit 493 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,120 on diet. Do you do any supplements or 494 00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:11,000 pellets or anything like that? Interesting story. 495 00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:16,600 So I actually did experiment on all the different feeds I did 496 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:21,600 get in some Missouri pellets, specifically imported them I did 497 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,720 buy in Hikaru. 'S tortoise pellets as well. 498 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,360 There was another brand I tried, I can't remember what their name 499 00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:32,680 was, but yeah, you know, it's it's like with anything, even 500 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,400 with certain children, certain of them or like it, some of them 501 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,480 weren't at all. And then I just started printing 502 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,200 all the big companies in the world, their commercial diets, 503 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,600 and trying to see what is in it, Why is in the one, what benefit 504 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,080 it actually? Does have two tortoises, so. 505 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,920 In the end I did actually buy in all the different vitamins, 506 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,600 amino acids, all that and tried to formulate it all. 507 00:26:57,120 --> 00:26:59,360 Correctly, it was successful to a. 508 00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:03,040 Certain extent. And then I just decided remove 509 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,440 all the amino acids, you know, the plants over their natural 510 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,440 amino acids, the natural proteins and yeah. 511 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,960 If you look at folic. Acid and biotins stuff the 512 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,160 tortoises need, and you can supplement that to a very small 513 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,400 extent. But so I actually. 514 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,120 Formulated my own. Tortoise diet with that it's. 515 00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:24,560 Basically 7 weeds dried, dandelion dried, dried, plantain 516 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:25,640 dried. Hibiscus. 517 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,200 Timothy Hay, Orchard Gross Stinging nettle, Mellow 518 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,600 marshmallow robos, and I think that's about it. 519 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,200 But yeah, just to have. Long strand fibers in the diet. 520 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,280 It's not a powdered form. That's what I struggled to 521 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,960 understand with diets like Rappeshi. 522 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,160 You know it's a powder form. You're losing the the long 523 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,400 strand fibers and no tortoise blends their. 524 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,080 Food before they eat it so. They need that fiber. 525 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,520 Yeah, so. And again. 526 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:54,720 What I? What I also. 527 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,120 Do you know, I'll put, for instance, the Timothy hay in a 528 00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:00,440 in a hammer mole. You know, if there's so many 529 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,840 other guys in the USI don't think it's a good enough excuse 530 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,160 and I'm stepping on toes, but it's. 531 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,600 So easy to go to the store, get mustard. 532 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,760 Greens and all those things, you can put it in a bowl, snip it up 533 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,400 a little bit. I'm not saying everybody needs 534 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,600 to have a hammer mole. I mean, if you can get a company 535 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,920 to hammer mole, Timothy Hay and that for you. 536 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,200 If you've got. One or two. 537 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,080 Tortoises. It's quite easy just to cut it 538 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,760 up. By hand, cut it up in about half 539 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,400 inch pieces and you can sprinkle. 540 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:30,920 That over the lettuce. We all know. 541 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,120 Tortoises are obsessed with lettuce, but it's got very. 542 00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:36,520 Low nutritional value. They got a very, very. 543 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,560 Keen, good sense of smell. So if you do, put hibiscus 544 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,880 powder a little bit. On and you do put the dried 545 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,760 timothea in orchid grass on. You're basically forcing them to 546 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,520 eat like a grassland. Species supposed to eat. 547 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,680 So yeah, big focus. For me is on diet and getting 548 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,320 the correct roughage and everything in. 549 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,720 And yeah, main thing, just make sure there's enough fog in the 550 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,400 enclosure and do not make the mistake of thinking that African 551 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,200 species do not always need water at all times. 552 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,000 Yeah, I think that's something people do a lot. 553 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,760 I mean that for the longest time with ball pythons, people were 554 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,600 like, oh, they're they're from Africa. 555 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,200 You just keep them dry and they do not do well when kept dry. 556 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,880 They need that humidity. How active are your guys? 557 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,200 Are they running around or they come in and check you out when 558 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,200 it's feeding time? So this is, you know, a lot of 559 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,440 the things that I. Talk about is is self-taught 560 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,400 over the years. You know, nobody, nobody in the 561 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,480 world is going to convince me that a tortoise doesn't have an 562 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,920 extreme sense of smell. If I for instance cut up greens 563 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:50,320 and I put and it's semi weight, you know the hibiscus. 564 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:54,800 Fuses with the latest. And if I walk into that reptile 565 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,800 rhythm, it's like 2-3 seconds and. 566 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,480 All the little tortoises are. Immediately, like on the edge of 567 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,400 the enclosure, waiting like little dogs. 568 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,080 For their food. If I do it with most of the 569 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:04,960 other. Feeds. 570 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,360 They take a minute or two and take their time to actually get 571 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,600 there. You know, like stuff like 572 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,480 Mulberry leaves for instance, doesn't give off that much of A 573 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,200 scent and it usually does take them a while. 574 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,720 To to get that sniff. On and then they'll come in and 575 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,120 dine. But for me, it's just extremely 576 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,840 relaxing, you know, I'm. Probably like a very. 577 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,640 Old man in that regard, but like waking up in the morning making 578 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,800 a cup of coffee and just looking at the you can literally hear 579 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,440 their little mouths crunch the leaves. 580 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,680 It's very thin, yeah. Just need some incense or 581 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,160 something running in the background. 582 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,520 So we touched on this a little bit, but I'm assuming that they 583 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:50,760 are very expensive and almost impossible to get in the US if 584 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,520 you're interested in them. Yeah. 585 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:59,440 So again, you know, I'm, I'm always hesitant with. 586 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,320 With. Saying things like these unless 587 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:03,960 somebody actually asks me about it. 588 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,000 So I've added in the. Past where people say. 589 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,640 You know, love the work you're doing, you know, you're helping 590 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,280 tortoises in the wild, helping tortoises in captivity with the 591 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,120 knowledge is spreading and better for the community. 592 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,120 And it would be so nice if one day we could help you with the 593 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,480 organization. It's just going through 594 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,360 difficult time currently. But. 595 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,680 And then like at the end of the conversation, like 2 sentences 596 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,160 later. But if you are interested in 597 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,440 selling, you know we can offer you $4000. 598 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,240 Per per. Aria lot of searching and this 599 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,520 is what what and again controversial opinion maybe to 600 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,040 some, but this is what I call ego buying you know everybody is 601 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,760 is in that regard are so focused on having the expensive animals 602 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,440 that. Are rare and versus spending 603 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,280 that money to help them in their. 604 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:54,480 Yeah, so. This this is this is. 605 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,680 Why I want to and again, it it may be a controversial opinion 606 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,160 for some, but you know, that's what conservationists try and 607 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,240 do. We try and mitigate certain 608 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,040 things, but over mitigate. And that's probably not the 609 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,680 right English, but English is my second language. 610 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,440 But yeah, to. Try and at least have a certain 611 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,400 fund, funnily enough, and it's it's so ironic. 612 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,680 You know, lunchtime, we just. Had a quick chat about. 613 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:26,640 This And just as I got into the room, I got a message from a 614 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,000 friend of mine and he's opening a conservation center in South 615 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,080 Africa and he. Said we'd love to have. 616 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,840 You on a display to market other MPO's. 617 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:37,560 But what we'd like to do with the? 618 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,840 Funding that we get in for the new wildlife. 619 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,480 Area that we are. Creating and it's a semi zoo 620 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,080 area as well is that 10% of our. Total profits goes to. 621 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:51,120 Other nonprofits and they'd like to incorporate my nonprofit as 622 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,320 well as other ones in that and that's exactly what I have, but 623 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,680 apart from that is to do it in. Specific areas. 624 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,720 If you look at Draco and so on, you know. 625 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,040 Look at their locality. If you look at radiato, 626 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,320 whichever species. And you try and at least change 627 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,000 in their natural habitat. Obviously, in some cases it 628 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,120 won't be possible. I've tried, you know, working 629 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,600 with guys with African cichlids, some of the countries, it's just 630 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,560 simply not possible. The habitats, it's just not 631 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:20,440 there anymore. It's gone. 632 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,760 And the last remaining of those species are in captivity. 633 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,840 So you know it's going to be a much more. 634 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,880 Tedious process. To try and do that in some. 635 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:30,800 Areas, it's so focused. In that little. 636 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,520 Locality. That locality is totally. 637 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,400 Overdeveloped and it doesn't exist anymore. 638 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,880 Yeah, unfortunately that's happening with a lot of animals. 639 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,320 Where there's nowhere for them to go back to, even if they're. 640 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,280 Yeah. So that's, that's just my, you 641 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:45,840 know. Obviously, I was Bill. 642 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,040 Gates or somebody like that, I would, I would not have 643 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,520 alternatives like these. And I'll just say I'll find it 644 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,640 myself. But you know, in in this way, I 645 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,120 just say in a much more ethical way, you can still do your 646 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,080 passion, still follow your hobby and with a good clean 647 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,800 conscience, you can still say, but I'm not just breeding 648 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,720 animals, I'm saving them in the wild as well. 649 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:06,880 Yeah. So. 650 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,239 Yeah. So is there anything that we 651 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,280 missed on captive care that you think people should know as far 652 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,920 as taking care of them? Well, I think firstly, your main 653 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,639 thing should be, you know, for instance, a guy like me, if I 654 00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:24,880 breed them, I've got photos of my hatchlings when they are 655 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,320 born, OK, After a couple of months, I still have photos of 656 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,840 what they look like. And I think, you know, to 657 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,800 prevent these kind of things, if there's any speculation of 658 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,800 documentation being forged or anything like that, then to 659 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,320 counter that you can at least say, listen, the guy that I got 660 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,800 them from 100% legal documentation is there. 661 00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:48,719 Babies are raised in captivity and you can count all those 662 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,199 arguments to prevent these kind of. 663 00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:55,280 Irregularities, but that is probably your biggest threat. 664 00:34:55,280 --> 00:35:00,000 Is getting a tortoise that could not be captive bred and they're 665 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,680 all going to really. Struggle to adapt. 666 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,640 Into a small environment. Like I said, mine love being in 667 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,080 the enclosure. I never see them stressed pacing 668 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,080 up and down the enclosure. But again, in the past, if I've 669 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,760 done that with rehabilitation animals that. 670 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,640 First few weeks they are. Highly stressed. 671 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,160 They don't understand why they're there, but at the end of 672 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,800 the day, you can't release them because they are pathogenic. 673 00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:25,880 So yeah, it's one of those tough, tough things. 674 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,760 Yeah, it is. So if you happen to be lucky 675 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,520 enough to come across them, I guess, you know, really do your 676 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,040 due diligence as far as make sure they're captive bred, 677 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,160 right? Look, ask for pictures. 678 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,400 Ask for the pictures of the setup and the babies and the 679 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,080 parents and all that kind of stuff. 680 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,520 Yeah, I mean, I've, I've been asked about guy by guys like 681 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,080 this in the past and you know, I understand fully. 682 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,160 Some people are just much more reserved. 683 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,200 They don't want to. Have people at their. 684 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,120 Home and show all those kind of things but at the end of the 685 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,480 day, if you if you're the person that's advertising these animals 686 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:08,680 you know just as I mean I've got a a sphinx cat and I've got. 687 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:10,800 A rescue cat that. Doesn't matter for me with both 688 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,440 of them in both circumstances. The 1 is really cheap, the 1 is 689 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,320 really expensive. But for me, both, I physically 690 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,720 want to see where they come from, how they were raised. 691 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,280 Where they're ethically raised. And yeah, that's why I got both 692 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,080 of them because everything, my due diligence was done and I was 693 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:27,760 happy with all the circumstances. 694 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,280 All right. Well, thank you, Dirk for 695 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,280 joining me today and for our listeners. 696 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,600 Be sure to subscribe. So you don't miss our next 697 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,480 episode, we're going to be talking about common Padlopper 698 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,440 breeding and hatchling care. If people have questions, where 699 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,560 can they find you online? OK, so my Facebook is just Derek 700 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,320 Barnard or you can follow my. Facebook page Tortoise. 701 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,000 Conservation South Africa and then. 702 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,400 Brackets, brackets. TCSA. 703 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:58,200 Otherwise, they can e-mail me on info.tortoiseconservation@gmail.com. 704 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:00,920 OK. And you are a registered 705 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,240 nonprofit, so if people want to donate, they can find you at 706 00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:07,440 those places, right? Yes, it's 100%. 707 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,520 All right, perfect. Thanks again. 708 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,280 Cool, thank you for having me. Thank you for. 709 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,960 Joining us for Turtle Tea with TTPG. 710 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,440 Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss out. 711 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,320 We're brewing up new episodes twice a month every. 1st and 3rd 712 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,800 Monday. If you have any questions or 713 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,720 suggestions for future topics, you can reach me at 714 00:37:27,720 --> 00:37:33,400 wendy@ttpg.org or find me on the TTPG group discussion on 715 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,560 Facebook. For full show notes, 716 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,840 transcripts, and info about our guests, visit turtletea.org. 717 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:44,160 Until next time, keep learning, listening and loving those 718 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:44,800 turtles.