1 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,480 Whether you're outside grilling, changing diapers, or just trying 2 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,520 to catch a breath, A Young Dad Podcast is your spot for real 3 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,160 conversations about fatherhood, manhood, and everything in 4 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:20,480 between. I'm your host. 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,240 Jay and I sit down with dads, experts, and everyday men to 6 00:00:23,240 --> 00:00:25,920 talk about the joys, the struggles, and the lessons that 7 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,960 come with raising kids and building a meaningful life. 8 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,200 From mental health and relationships to faith, family, 9 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,920 and the funny stuff only dads understand, YDP is here to 10 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,480 remind you that you're not doing this alone. 11 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,560 So grab a juice box, grab a snack, kick back and join the 12 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,800 conversation. Because fatherhood doesn't come 13 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,320 with a manual, but it should come with a podcast. 14 00:00:49,480 --> 00:00:52,640 A college football tackle in 1970 changed everything, leaving 15 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,400 today's guest AC4C5 quadriplegic. 16 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:57,640 But what didn't change his expectation? 17 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,720 He finished Cornell the 1st for a quadriplegic graduate, earned 18 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,519 dual master's, a law degree, and tried cases for 40 plus years at 19 00:01:04,519 --> 00:01:08,400 Nassau County ADA while raising triplet boys. 20 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,000 This is a story about redefining limit, leading with dignity in 21 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,520 building a legacy that outlives circumstance. 22 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:16,440 So whether you're outside reeling, mowing the lawn, 23 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,160 changing dirty diapers, or maybe you finally got a moment to sit 24 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,680 down, relax and listen to your favorite show, thanks for being 25 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,680 here and thanks for tuning in. Today's guest is Ken 26 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,240 Quadriplegic lawyer, Cornell and Columbia graduate, long time 27 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,800 Nassau County assistant District Attorney and deputy Bureau 28 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,160 chief, disability advocate and proud father Triplet has been 29 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,240 more I dream of things that never were they. 30 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,240 Ken Kunkin story that came out in 2023 captures a lifetime of 31 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,720 great service and expectation setting that lifts everyone 32 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:46,440 around him. So make sure you grab your juice 33 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,120 box, grab a snack and let's jump in today's real and honest 34 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,200 conversation. And of course, welcome Ken to 35 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:52,160 the show. Ken, welcome. 36 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:53,960 Thank you, Jay. Thank you for having me as your 37 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:55,560 guest. Of course, of course. 38 00:01:55,560 --> 00:02:01,120 So let's let's go back all that all this time to, to 19/19/70. 39 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,680 So you're playing college football and a, a tackle 40 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:09,000 happened and pretty much what what happened after that? 41 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,280 I mean, we kind of told a little bit, but what like went through 42 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,800 your mind? Did you know right away what 43 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,000 what was that next thing that happened next? 44 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,160 OK, well I was playing on Cornell's lightweight football 45 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:20,880 team. We were playing in a game 46 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,480 against Columbia University and the game was at Cornell and it 47 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,560 was hard to kick off. I ran down the field, tackled 48 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,080 the ball carrier and I felt like there was an electric shock 49 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,320 shooting through my body and I lost all movement as well as all 50 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:39,400 feeling below my shoulders. So I didn't know what the extent 51 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,200 of my injury was. I didn't know that I had damaged 52 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,200 my spinal cord. I hadn't even heard of a spinal 53 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:49,440 cord injury before my injury. So I was pretty much in the 54 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,840 dark, just like everybody else was while I was laying on the 55 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:54,360 field. Why I couldn't move. 56 00:02:54,400 --> 00:03:00,080 What was it like realizing that you couldn't move and like now 57 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,480 your life is is probably changed for forever? 58 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:08,000 You know, everything changed. Firstly, before my injury, if 59 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,560 you would have asked me to describe myself, I would have 60 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,960 talked about how in high school I started on the varsity 61 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,640 football team. I started on the varsity 62 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:20,200 baseball team, excuse me, the varsity wrestling team. 63 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:24,240 I played on three or four different intramural softball 64 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,560 teams. I worked during during the 65 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,680 summer as a lifeguard and I probably would have added at the 66 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:31,680 end. And I was a fairly good student 67 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:33,800 as well. So I always thought of myself 68 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:38,080 first as an athlete and 2nd, that I had a pretty good mind 69 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,720 and also as a good student. So suddenly my life totally 70 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,800 changed. Here I was with no physical 71 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,040 movement and totally dependent now on my mental, my 72 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,680 intellectual abilities. And So what? 73 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:52,200 What kind of told did I have on you? 74 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:56,840 At first, realizing the physicals like gone was 75 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:58,760 devastating. Devastating. 76 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:03,600 I mean, I need to rely on everybody for all my activities 77 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,760 of daily living. I might add that when they I was 78 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:11,280 still on on the field and they put me on a stretcher and lifted 79 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,680 me up to carry me off the field, it felt like I had been 80 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,240 decapitated and they were just carrying my head off the field. 81 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,800 That's what I thought. Suddenly I had no body. 82 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,920 I just had a head and that was the extent of my being at that 83 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:26,440 time. That's. 84 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:29,440 Crazy and So what kind of things happened next? 85 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,720 Like where did you go? Did you go straight back to 86 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:37,240 classes or what was like the next step in in life? 87 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:39,840 Like after, right after that, what were some of the challenges 88 00:04:39,840 --> 00:04:43,040 that you faced, like immediately after, like moving forward? 89 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,840 Well, I spent the next nine months and 20 days in various 90 00:04:46,840 --> 00:04:51,320 hospitals and rehabilitation centers, and at the time very 91 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,000 few people even told me what the extent of my injury was and what 92 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,280 a spinal cord injury entail. And when I was moved to a 93 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:02,480 rehabilitation center, I met for the first time many people that 94 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,600 were injured far longer than I was, and they didn't seem to be 95 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,560 doing much of anything with their lives. 96 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:09,800 Most of them just seem to be sitting home. 97 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,280 Now remember, I got hurt in 1970. 98 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,200 This was more than 20 years before the Americans with 99 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,800 Disabilities Act took effect. So most facilities were not 100 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,760 wheelchair accessible. I didn't see people out on the 101 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,000 streets in wheelchairs, let alone people who couldn't move 102 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:26,960 their arms as well as their legs. 103 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:31,960 So to me it was not only very strange the condition I was in, 104 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:34,960 but I didn't know of anybody else in my condition. 105 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:39,200 I mean, I was heard about 25 years before Christopher Reeves 106 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,640 devastating injury and he became a tremendous role model for all 107 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,160 of us. But at the time I was injured, I 108 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:50,160 didn't know of anybody that I could look to for motivation or 109 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,000 inspiration or to tell me or show me that you could still 110 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,480 live a useful, productive life as a quadriplegic. 111 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:02,400 So how did you like find that that motivation or that that 112 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:07,560 desire to to not just be, you know, a homebody bedridden, 113 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,360 chairridden and do more than just you know, then what the 114 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,400 average, I don't want to say this sounds probably awful, but 115 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:16,400 like the average like quadriplegic was doing at that 116 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,000 time that you saw. You know, I was fortunate that I 117 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,640 had a very supportive and encouraging family and group of 118 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,360 friends that kept encouraging me that since I still had my mind, 119 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:30,120 there was a lot that I could do. And I had a vocational counsel 120 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,560 at the rehab center by the name of Joyce Mash, who encouraged me 121 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,920 to go back to college and continue with my education. 122 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,200 And with her help and the support, encouragement of my 123 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,520 family. Right after I finally was 124 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,240 discharged from the rehab facility, I went back to Cornell 125 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,480 University and I continued my studies in industrial 126 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,560 engineering. Now, Jay, I might add that once 127 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,600 again, this was so uncommon back then. 128 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,600 You didn't see people in wheelchairs up at Cornell. 129 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,200 Then there was one other student who had used a wheelchair. 130 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,240 He was injured also when he was up at Cornell, but he was a 131 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,800 paraplegic. He had the use of his arms. 132 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,640 I had to be wheeled around everywhere that I went. 133 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,440 Almost every building at Cornell had steps in front of them and 134 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,760 it was that one ramp or curb cut on the entire campus. 135 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,840 My first day back at school I had to be either pulled up or 136 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:27,720 bounced down close to 100 steps just to attend my first day of 137 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:28,640 classes. Wow. 138 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:36,040 And so going from going back to Cornell and having to be be so 139 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:40,520 assisted and not be able to really access anything, what did 140 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,200 it have like a toll like where you're thinking, man, this is 141 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,280 this is gonna be tough. I don't know if I can keep doing 142 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:46,400 this. I don't know if this is gonna be 143 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,600 possible. You know, I remember after my 144 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,640 first day having my personal care attendant lie me in bed, 145 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,320 and I remember staring at the ceiling thinking I must have 146 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:00,520 been crazy to go back to Cornell so soon after my injury because 147 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,760 I'd only been out of the hospital 11 days back then and 148 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,680 trying to continue my studies when there was nothing that was 149 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,120 wheelchair accessible. You know, ironically, one of the 150 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,600 few places I could go to Cornell, one of the few 151 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,800 activities I could do was to go to watch a football game because 152 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,160 I could get into the stadium that was accessible. 153 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:22,480 You know, virtually nothing else was. 154 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,800 But I had no Plan B at that time. 155 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,200 I didn't know what else I would do if I didn't make a success 156 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,280 out of this. Yeah, I mean was the plan to So 157 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:33,679 what I guess what was the plan before the injury? 158 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:35,080 Well. Before the injury, I was 159 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,480 studying industrial engineering, and here I was at one of the 160 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,679 most prestigious schools for engineering in the country. 161 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,840 While I was in the rehab facility, it seemed like the 162 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,480 medical professionals were reluctant to answer any of my 163 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,760 questions, but they had put out a pamphlet that told you 164 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,280 basically everything about what somebody with a spinal cord 165 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:58,000 injury could expect or do, depending on the level of their 166 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:59,000 injury. I'm hurt. 167 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,080 Between the 4th and 5th cervical, when I looked for the 168 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:06,080 level of my injury, they had a page that talked about possible 169 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,680 careers. And the only thing that I saw 170 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,600 back then was that someday I may be able to sell magazine 171 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,720 subscriptions over the telephone. 172 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,520 And I was devastated. And in fact, at that time, I 173 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,560 couldn't even dial a telephone or take notes or write anything. 174 00:09:22,680 --> 00:09:25,720 So I thought even that may be too difficult for me. 175 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:27,360 Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. 176 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,640 If the only thing you can read is saying that you need to use 177 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,200 your arms and your hands, that's going to be pretty discouraging. 178 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,720 That's going to not not feel great and you know. 179 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,240 Jay, this was, well, this was well before the age of laptop 180 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,160 computers. In fact, the phones then were 181 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,360 Rotary phones. They weren't even touch tone 182 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,480 phones. So we're talking about 55 years 183 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:49,200 ago. So how? 184 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:54,640 Did you do like schoolwork and coursework and all the class 185 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:55,920 work? I'm sure Cornell offered you 186 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,200 accommodations because of the injury, but how did you just 187 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,560 like you got multiple degrees, obviously you got a bachelor's, 188 00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:06,320 2 masters in a law degree. How did you get that during this 189 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,320 time where there wasn't the computers, there wasn't the 190 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,080 technology and times look a bit different in that in that sense. 191 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:13,560 Well, it. Was really difficult. 192 00:10:13,560 --> 00:10:17,560 I remember going to class my first day, couldn't concentrate 193 00:10:17,560 --> 00:10:20,200 at all because I was so worried about being pulled up and down 194 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,680 all of the steps and sitting there listening to professors 195 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,520 and I couldn't take notes. So it was really, really 196 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:28,920 difficult. And they really didn't have any 197 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:33,920 special accommodations for me. They had converted a room in a 198 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,520 dorm that used to be a lounge to make it a little bigger for me 199 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,760 to have a dorm room. But other than that, I was 200 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:44,160 relying on my personal care attendant that I had, that I had 201 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,440 hired, you know, that I hired through ADS. 202 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:50,080 Although that first time I was back, fortunately one person 203 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,160 volunteered who was up there to be my attendant, but I relied a 204 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,800 lot on his help as well as help from classmates, fraternity 205 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,640 brothers, football teammates, and that helped me get through 206 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:04,040 IF. You didn't have that support 207 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:05,360 network. Do you think you would have been 208 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:06,520 able to get through it? Probably. 209 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,720 Not and by support network. I must give so much credit to my 210 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:15,480 family and friends because they kept encouraging me every step 211 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,720 of the way, trying to reassure me that they felt there was 212 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:22,040 still a lot I could do as long as I applied myself. 213 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,320 And with their help and support, I was fortunately able to 214 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,160 complete my undergraduate degree in engineering. 215 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,400 But I knew engineering really wasn't a viable field for me and 216 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,240 elected. I took in psychology. 217 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:37,000 My professor there by the name of Doctor James Moss, took an 218 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,760 interested me and felt I could make a difference to others if I 219 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,160 worked as a counsellor. So with his encouragement, I 220 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:48,960 changed my career goal and went on to earn a master's degree at 221 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,880 Cornell in counseling and student personnel administration 222 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,360 and then increase my counseling credentials. 223 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,640 I went to Columbia University, the school I was actually hurt 224 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:00,880 playing against when I had my injury. 225 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,160 And he had a second master's degree, this one in 226 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,320 psychological counseling and rehabilitation. 227 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,400 And I want you to think about this, Jay. 228 00:12:08,560 --> 00:12:12,320 At that time, I now had three Ivy League degrees, 2 from 229 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:16,760 Cornell, one from Columbia, 2 master's degrees, and no one 230 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:18,960 would hire. Everyone seemed to feel I was 231 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,800 just too disabled to work, and I had looked for a job for a year, 232 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,960 sent out more than 200 resumes, and I was even turned down when 233 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:28,920 I off the violent. You know, my service. 234 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:34,080 What's that one organization willing to give me the chance to 235 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,880 show what I could do, and that's the Viscardi Center on Long 236 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,040 Island. They hired me to work as a 237 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,640 vocational rehabilitation counselor, to be counselor to 238 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:45,560 other individuals with disabilities. 239 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,200 And that changed my life. And so. 240 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:50,720 How, how did that change your life? 241 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:52,760 Like you finally got hired. You went through all this 242 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:57,520 schooling and and everything and was it, was it ironic going to 243 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,880 Columbia at first? Like was there? 244 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,640 Was there some like, I can't believe I'm here, You know, it's 245 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,760 the universe has a funny way. Whenever I heard the name 246 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,680 Columbia, I would start to get depressed because it would 247 00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:15,280 remind me of my injury and here I was now going to school there. 248 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,920 So yeah, it was very strange to do that and. 249 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,520 So you're working as a vocational rehabilitation 250 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:23,600 counselor. How did that change things for 251 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:24,360 you? Well. 252 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:29,240 I started working there 1977. So at that time I had now been 253 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,760 injured for 6 1/2 years. And during that time as well as 254 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,880 that continued after that, I needed to receive a a lot of 255 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,760 help from a lot of people because I was dependent on 256 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,160 others for all my activities of daily living. 257 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:46,680 Now here I was employed as a vocational rehabilitation 258 00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:50,440 counselor where for the first time I was in a position where I 259 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,720 could help others, that I could give back. 260 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,240 And that was a wonderful, wonderful feeling to be in a 261 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,280 position where now I could finally help others and. 262 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:06,880 So when when you were helping others, did it make, I mean, I 263 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,200 guess the only way I can think the phrase this question is did 264 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:15,240 it help you feel like more quote UN quote like normal? 265 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,560 Did it help you forget about the injury a little bit? 266 00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:20,240 I mean, it's hard to forget, but. 267 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,560 It was very strange because even though I was working with other 268 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,840 individuals with disabilities, I was actually the more physically 269 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,720 limited than one of the people that I was counseling. 270 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:35,800 But it gave me the self-confidence to know I still 271 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,840 was in a position where I can help people, that I could still 272 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,560 work, that I could still earn money and make something of not 273 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:46,240 only my life, but to be served as some type of role model for 274 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,680 others. I saw people I was counseling 275 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:53,040 looking at me with pride that somebody with a disability could 276 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,600 work and help people. And it just made me feel so much 277 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:57,760 better about myself. Yeah. 278 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,080 Well, can I think if you're on, you know, the other side of and 279 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,200 like if I was facing a serious disability or something and I 280 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,880 was on the other side from you in that situation, I would have 281 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:13,000 to think as like the person receiving the services, like, 282 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:17,160 you know, maybe, maybe it's not that bad kind of thing. 283 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:22,720 Maybe I can work through this. Maybe if he can do it, I can do 284 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:24,040 it kind of thing. I would take a lot of 285 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,560 encouragement from that personally seeing someone and I 286 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,040 don't want to say like worse off, but like you said, more 287 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,480 physically limited or more limited that has been more 288 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,640 impacted than myself. I think I would take that and be 289 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,720 like, you know what, I think I can, I can work through this 290 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:40,000 kind of thing. Well, I was. 291 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,400 Hoping I would have that type of impact on others because as I 292 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,840 indicated, I didn't have a role model back then that I could 293 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,280 look to for hope and inspiration. 294 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,400 And I hope maybe now I was in a position where I could serve as 295 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,440 some type of role model for others. 296 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,280 Definitely. No, I and I definitely think 297 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,920 being in that position, like helping others like you, you 298 00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:03,440 become that, that role model and you're able to set the example 299 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,040 through it all. And so while you're doing this, 300 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,160 when, when did you end up going to, to law school? 301 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,120 Well. I worked for a little over 2 302 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,320 years as a vocational rehabilitation counselor and my 303 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:19,280 duties and responsibilities kept expanding while I was there. 304 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:24,360 And one of my roles was to speak at conferences before groups and 305 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,560 organizations concerning affirmative action and non 306 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,400 discrimination for people with disabilities. 307 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:35,320 And often after my talks I would be asked questions and while I 308 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,160 do my best to answer them appropriately, I was always 309 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,560 careful to caution. The question is, they should 310 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,120 really speak with a lawyer about their concerns. 311 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,280 I guess it didn't take long before I started to think, you 312 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,960 know, there's no reason why I couldn't become that lawyer. 313 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,560 And as it turned out, I had a brother who's three years older 314 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,320 than me that was actually working as a lawyer. 315 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,360 He was a defense attorney working for the Legal Aid 316 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,320 Society at the time. And I used to go and watch him 317 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,280 in court and think, this looks really interesting. 318 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,680 And at least while I was in watching him, it looked like 319 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,359 what he was doing was mostly verbal, right, speaking rather 320 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,440 than writing. And I started to think, you 321 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,480 know, maybe that's something I could do. 322 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,400 So for a number of reasons, I decided that maybe law would be 323 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,800 the next best step for me. So I left my job and went to law 324 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:23,760 school. When? 325 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:29,000 Did it become a lot easier for, for you to like, communicate 326 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:33,880 with like technology and be able to like take notes or record 327 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:38,120 things or like communicate in in different ways other than just 328 00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:39,520 verbal? You know, it was really 329 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,240 difficult. Again, this was stillwell before 330 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,240 the age of laptop computers. And since I really couldn't 331 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,920 write, in fact I had difficulty just turning pages of a book. 332 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,120 So it was extremely difficult to do that. 333 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,480 And when laptop computers came out, I was not computer savvy at 334 00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:59,640 all. So I really didn't know how to 335 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,680 operate them even if I could. You know, most of the time the 336 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,600 voice recognition that they had in some of the computers was 337 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,720 very difficult to train and use and get used to my voice back 338 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,480 then. And trying to operate, you know, 339 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,840 a mouse was really difficult for me because I didn't have 340 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:22,720 dexterity in my and my arms are hands to even move the mouse and 341 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,200 intact. In terms of communicating, I 342 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,680 would have described myself pretty much as an introvert 343 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,880 before my injury. So I was not one that liked to 344 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,920 speak up in class or even like to approach a stranger to ask 345 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,600 for any sort of help. So it was extremely difficult 346 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,400 trying to make do with my limited movement and the way I 347 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,800 felt about myself in public, definitely. 348 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,360 And so then you're you're in law school and going through law 349 00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:50,600 school. What was there any like 350 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,200 challenges? What was the most difficult 351 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,680 part? Best parts of being at Columbia 352 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:55,480 for law? Well, I. 353 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,360 Didn't go to Columbia for law, I went there for my second masters 354 00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:00,400 degree. I actually went to Hoster 355 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:04,440 University on Long Island for law, and fortunately, they were 356 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,000 pretty well set up the campus itself for people in 357 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,960 wheelchairs, even though I usually had to sit in front of 358 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,760 the front row, in front of the front row on most of the 359 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,680 lectures. And as a result, I felt like I 360 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,920 was being stared at even more because here I am. 361 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,120 They almost have to look at me there in order to see the 362 00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:24,960 professor. So it was that way at Cornell 363 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,400 and Columbia as well. So it was still difficult, and I 364 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,960 had to rely on my memory a lot since I couldn't take notes. 365 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,720 I worked very hard to train my memory to get better. 366 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,200 And fortunately, through a lot of hard work and a lot of help 367 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,240 for my classmates, I was able to complete law school. 368 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,040 And while I was there, my brother encouraged me to do an 369 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,680 internship at the district attorney's office because he 370 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,520 felt that way. One, my office would be in the 371 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,560 same building as the courthouse. I would get to go to court 372 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,680 without much difficulty. And that there would be people 373 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,760 there that would be paralegals, legal secretaries, police 374 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,480 officers. There'd be a big support system 375 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,560 if I worked at the DA's office. And he was very right. 376 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,440 I enjoyed my internship, decided to apply for a full time job 377 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,520 there when I graduated. And I was very fortunate that 378 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,000 the District Attorney at the time. 379 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,760 A person by the name of Dennis Dillon was a very forward 380 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,520 thinking, progressive individual who based his hiring decision on 381 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,240 my abilities rather than my disability. 382 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:28,200 But let me just continue a little further. 383 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,760 I was fortunate to be hired there after three years of law 384 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,880 school. I passed the difficult New York 385 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,360 State Bar exam the first time that I took it. 386 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,120 I began my work by going through a very intensive 4 week training 387 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:44,240 program where they taught us all aspects of trial techniques from 388 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,520 a prosecutor's perspective. And I was so proud to go to 389 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,040 court my first day and I couldn't fit through the 390 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,600 swinging doorways in the courtroom to get to the 391 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,400 prosecutor's table. The doorways were too narrow to 392 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,840 let me to get through with my electric wheelchair. 393 00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:01,960 I couldn't believe it. After all of that work, you 394 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,200 feel. Just like deflating and just so, 395 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,600 so heartbreaking in that moment. Like you're doing everything. 396 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,880 You worked your ass off and you're just, you're literally 397 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:14,920 can't sit through a freaking door, you know? 398 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:19,360 I it was like, what more do I need to do all right to just 399 00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:23,480 have the opportunity to work and show what I could do like you. 400 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,720 Finally overcome all everything, right? 401 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,760 You overcome all the schooling, everything, internship, working, 402 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,640 finishing it, passing the bar. You do, you check all the boxes, 403 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,800 do all the things. And then you finally get there 404 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:39,520 and there's literally a physical barrier to you getting in. 405 00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:44,040 It sure was difficult, and I felt it was a very gutsy move on 406 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,400 the district attorney's part to hire me because the hair, you 407 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:53,120 didn't see a quadriplegic as a trial attorney anywhere at that 408 00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:54,400 time? I certainly didn't. 409 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,080 There certainly weren't any on Long Island back then, or you 410 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,000 didn't even see them in the courtroom. 411 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,120 I think people were shocked to see me when they saw me in 412 00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:05,360 court. No, I definitely would be a 413 00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:07,920 little taken back if I, if I was on the other side from you and 414 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,280 be like, what's what's happening? 415 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:11,680 I would be a little taken back personally. 416 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:19,120 And so after that, that first court experience, what did 417 00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:21,480 anything else like change? Was there anything else that 418 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:25,240 like came along with working at the DA's office and moving 419 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,160 through that, you know? It, it was very strange because 420 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,960 again, this was well before the Americans with Disabilities 421 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,920 there. And as it turned out on my first 422 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,120 trial, it happened to be a bench trial, trial with no jury. 423 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,400 And the defendant was an individual who was both deaf and 424 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,160 mute. We needed a sign language 425 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,840 interpreter for the trial. And here I was, I had just 426 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:50,120 finished working as a vocational rehabilitation counselor helping 427 00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:53,200 people with disabilities. And the first person that I was 428 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,400 prosecuting on a trial had a very significant physical 429 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,640 disability. So the second trial that I did, 430 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,120 the defendants father, who the defense called as a character 431 00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:08,000 witness was a paraplegic. And here I was cross examining 432 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,280 somebody else in a wheelchair and I'm thinking, boy, what a 433 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,360 trajectory. My career has come. 434 00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:17,680 My first two cross examinations were an individual who is deaf 435 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,480 and mute and an individual who's in a wheelchair. 436 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,360 I couldn't believe this is how I started my career. 437 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,800 So did you. Was there was there like any, 438 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,040 because I know you obviously you have a job to do right in that 439 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,760 moment, but was there any like like, did you feel for those 440 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:33,840 people? You're like, man, I I get what 441 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,480 you're going through and did it make it harder to like to do 442 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:38,680 your job? It sure. 443 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,800 Did. I mean, you know, I always 444 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,520 thought that if I actually ever did go into criminal law, I 445 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,240 would go in as a defense attorney. 446 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,200 That's what my brother did. And to think, here I was on the 447 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,640 other side. It was quite an adjustment. 448 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:57,560 But I realized what I was doing is trying to help victims of 449 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:02,080 crimes, trying to give them the proper support and help and 450 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,920 through the legal system. And I actually felt very good 451 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,080 about being on the side I was as a prosecutor, trying to help 452 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,680 victims of crimes obtain justice. 453 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:18,000 And I might add that, you know, one day I was outside the 454 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,760 courthouse going to lunch with some friends, and an individual 455 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,960 approached me on the street. This was after I'd been working 456 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,320 for a couple of years. And he came up to me and he 457 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,920 goes, Remember Me. And those are words you usually 458 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,560 don't like to hear as a process. You're. 459 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,360 Outside the building and I didn't because I had been 460 00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:39,160 prosecuting a lot of cases by then and he told me his name and 461 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,760 I still didn't remember him. And finally, he said, you had me 462 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,920 for two DWI's while you're in district driving while under the 463 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,320 influence, he says. And I want you to know I got 464 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,160 into a program, I got the help that I needed, and I just wanted 465 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,400 to thank you. And he walked away. 466 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,160 And it was like, you know, first my reaction was that was close. 467 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,200 And then after catching my breath, it was like, you know 468 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,760 what? I felt really good that I made a 469 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,440 difference in his life as well. Here. 470 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,640 Somebody I had prosecuted thanked me for making a 471 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:16,360 difference in his life. And So what when you first were 472 00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:20,080 injured, when did you actually get access to a an electric 473 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,280 wheelchair well? I got access to an electric 474 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,000 wheelchair while I was in the rehab facility, but I couldn't 475 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,000 use it up at Cornell. There were no curb cuts. 476 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,360 There were no ramps. Gotcha. 477 00:25:31,360 --> 00:25:33,240 The only thing? That I was in my dorm room, had 478 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,680 10 steps in front of it so I couldn't use it at all. 479 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:38,200 No, I. Was just. 480 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,160 But that was a hit, OK. I was more so asking like if 481 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,800 they if they were like technology at that time. 482 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,520 I'm sure they've gotten better overtime. 483 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,320 Slimmer much? Better overtime, much better. 484 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,880 And I might add, you know, just to give you another story about 485 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,360 when I first went back to Cornell my second semester back, 486 00:25:56,360 --> 00:25:59,040 they had a fire drill. And, you know, I'll turn a fire 487 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:00,680 drill. Everybody has to evacuate the 488 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,160 building. And they asked me the next day 489 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,920 how I managed. And I told them very honestly, 490 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,400 you know, I was able to get out by having my attendant bounced 491 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,720 me down the 10 steps in front of the building. 492 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,280 But I felt bad that I know I slowed up other students who 493 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,360 were exiting. And Jay, wouldn't you know, 494 00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:20,600 within two weeks, they put in a ramp to the building. 495 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,240 First time I had a ramp that I was able to use. 496 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,840 And they did that not for my convenience, but for the safety 497 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,400 of the other students. And I still, I felt great about 498 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,040 that this year. At least I didn't have to go up 499 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:33,880 and down those 10 steps every day. 500 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:35,280 Yeah. That's a big difference. 501 00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:37,760 That's a big difference. And even if it wasn't directly 502 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,400 for you, right, it was, it so helped, it so benefited you a 503 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:42,720 lot. You're definitely a big 504 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,640 difference in all that, right? So. 505 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,080 And so I guess the part of the story we haven't covered yet, 506 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:48,400 we've talked a lot about your career. 507 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,520 We've talked talked a lot about your injury, but we haven't 508 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,640 talked yet about when you met your wife and when she came into 509 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,120 the picture with you, OK. I actually met my wife by 510 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,720 knowing that I needed an attendant at the time to help me 511 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,360 on weekends. I had divided my care into two 512 00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:07,440 positions. Somebody helped me during the 513 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,880 week and somebody who helped me on the weekends. 514 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:14,320 And, you know, I've used to put an ad in the local newspaper, 515 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,040 and it was really difficult getting the appropriate help 516 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,600 that I needed. And somebody had suggested I put 517 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,600 an ad in the Polish Daily News, which was published in New York 518 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,000 as well. So I put an ad in the Polish 519 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,640 Daily News. And I was very fortunate that 520 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,200 the woman who later became my wife answered it. 521 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:37,640 So the way I met my wife was she called on the phone to answer 522 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,720 the ad. And while I had female 523 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,640 attendance in the past, one of the difficulties is they must be 524 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,360 big enough and strong enough to lift me from the bed to the 525 00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:50,040 wheelchair because I can't transfer on my own. 526 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,520 And I found that in order to lift me into the wheelchair, the 527 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,240 women usually needed to be pretty tall to reach over the 528 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,440 back of the wheelchair to lift me. 529 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,240 Most of the women that were answering my ads were usually 530 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,440 between 5 foot two and five foot four. 531 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:10,400 And I felt that you needed to be at least 5657 to be able to 532 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,760 reach over the chair to lift me. So my first question whenever a 533 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,360 woman answered the ad was how tall are you? 534 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,320 Because I knew they had to be tall enough to lift me into the 535 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,640 chair. And I remember answering, asking 536 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,080 the woman who answered my ad, who later became my wife, how 537 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,800 tall are you? And she immediately responded 538 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,520 184 centimeters. And I'm like, Oh my goodness, 539 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,960 now I have to convert centimeters into ink in my head. 540 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,680 Fortunately, I was good with math and I realized that's 541 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,160 almost 6 foot 1 inches tall. So I knew I had a meter. 542 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,920 And when I did, I was so fortunate that she's an 543 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,240 absolutely phenomenal person. Her name is Anna. 544 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,880 She's actually sitting just off to my right, just off camera, 545 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,200 and she's made an enormous difference in my life and. 546 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,920 So I guess, how did you convince her to marry you? 547 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,520 How did you woo her? How did you get her from 548 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,520 caregiver to to wife? Okay, well, first of all, you 549 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,880 know, as my caregiver, you know, we spent a lot of time just 550 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,280 talking in addition to the care and it turned out we, we just 551 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:21,280 really clicked. You know, we got along real well 552 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,320 and, and after a while our relationship started to 553 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,800 progress, excuse me, into a very good friendship and then into a, 554 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,360 a romantic relationship. Excuse me, I'm just going to 555 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,840 have my wife give me a drink. You're fun, but. 556 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,520 Excuse me, I told my wife early on that there would be no long 557 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,040 term future I would never consider marriage. 558 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,560 I just didn't think that was something in my future. 559 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,840 I thought it may be too limiting to the woman to marry me and I 560 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,160 made it very known that I would never get married. 561 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,440 So marriage was out of the question. 562 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,320 And I had an aunt by the name of Betty Who. 563 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,680 You know, when I told her this, she kept trying to encourage me 564 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,480 not to feel that way, that she felt I still had a lot to offer 565 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,320 in a relationship and she encouraged me to open be open to 566 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,520 it. I still would have never and 567 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,440 felt confident enough to ask Anna to marry me. 568 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,040 And as it turned out, Jay, she actually proposed to me. 569 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:20,920 She actually proposed to me, boy. 570 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,920 Were you wrong? That's right. 571 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,840 And I was. But I was at least smart enough 572 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:31,880 to accept and to marry her. And when we got married, when we 573 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,200 decided to get married, it was Anna who told me that she wanted 574 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,400 to have my baby. Wasn't my idea. 575 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,640 It was Anna. And I ruled that out as well. 576 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,840 I mean, I just didn't think that was a possibility for me at the 577 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,840 time. I have been paralyzed for more 578 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:52,800 than 30 years, and I was already in my 50s, so the thought of 579 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:58,120 becoming a dad was just not in my thought process at all. 580 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,520 But Honor encouraged me to pursue it. 581 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:06,080 And she looked into various options, and one of those was in 582 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,160 vitro fertilization. And she encouraged me to pursue 583 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,120 it, and I did. And it wasn't easy. 584 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,840 And remember, this was quite a while ago, But through the 585 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,280 miracle of science, Anna became pregnant. 586 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,400 Yeah. That's a that's a different time 587 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,440 too, because that was what, the 80s, right? 588 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,800 Well, no, now it was at that early Cousins. 589 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:32,400 We got married in 2003. So I think mine, I was in my 50s 590 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,200 and you know, while in vitro was taking place, you didn't hear a 591 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,640 lot about in vitro for somebody with a spinal cord injury. 592 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:45,640 No, it's I was going to ask to kind of how because there's 593 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,120 this, there's this couple that I actually follow on TikTok. 594 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,720 He's a paraplegic and his fiance, he became a paraplegic 595 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,000 in 2022. His name is Nevin, he has AT7 596 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,880 spinal cord injury and his fiancee's name is Amber. 597 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:05,560 And I, I like, I, I enjoy their content and I like him sharing 598 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,000 his story. And they share about, because 599 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,160 people on TikTok are really weird and they ask those kind of 600 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,440 questions about like how and stuff. 601 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:14,960 And they're rather open about it. 602 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,920 But they share like the only way pretty much that they will 603 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,480 reliably be able to like start a family is going to be through 604 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,640 IVF. And so it's, that's why I was 605 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,800 going to ask because it was like how everyone's curious how, how 606 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,480 did that work? How did you end up with triplets 607 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,360 boy? Well, it was difficult and you 608 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,280 know, we tried IVF through first they tried what was called 609 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,600 Electro ejaculation and I went through a few different 610 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,320 procedures and it didn't work for me. 611 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,800 So I was really discouraged. But I had a wonderful doctor by 612 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,040 the name of Doctor Bruce Gilbert who kept encouraging me that it 613 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,760 would still be possible for me to father a child and eventually 614 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,440 decided that what we needed to do was to have surgery. 615 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,920 And we actually had surgery on my scrotum to extract viable 616 00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:04,520 sperm and have it implanted it to my wife, Honor and Miracle. 617 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:09,160 On miracle she became pregnant and at the time we had three 618 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,960 viable embryos. And the doctor suggested his 619 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,760 advice was let's implant all three and hope that at least one 620 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,800 took right? Because even the chances then, 621 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,640 yeah. Really slim, yeah, I think it's 622 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,720 that's pretty common I think too with IVF is that you implant 623 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,040 multiple at the same time. Well, we had three that were 624 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:33,960 doable and both Anna and I each had a brother and sister that 625 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,640 we're very close with. And we talked about, you know, 626 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,720 if we're going to have a child, wouldn't it be great if we had 627 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:44,720 it more than one? And my sister has identical 628 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,760 twins. And I thought, you know, 629 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,600 wouldn't it be great if we ended up with twins? 630 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,240 Wouldn't that be ideal? So we'd only have to go through 631 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,560 IVF once. And while IVF at that time was 632 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,400 becoming more common and that, you know, and they were finding 633 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,440 one more that it was doable, it still was a long shot in our 634 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,760 case. But they implanted 3 embryos and 635 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,080 I was present during the sonogram when we saw not just 636 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:18,679 one or two, but three viable embryos implanted that we're 637 00:34:18,679 --> 00:34:20,840 taking. And I couldn't believe it. 638 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,520 Here we was. She was pregnant with triplets. 639 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:24,639 That's. Crazy. 640 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:29,480 And so when you did become a father a little bit later in 641 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,440 life, right, what what kind of went through your mind? 642 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:33,960 What kind of things were you thinking? 643 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,800 Now you have three boys. What the kind of thing, How did 644 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,480 that change kind of that this next phase of your life like 645 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,639 moving forward? Everything changed. 646 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,320 You know, one of the first thoughts was how am I going to 647 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,199 get them home to the hospital. Here I had a minivan and we 648 00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:53,560 tried to look for car seats and the minivan to accommodate both 649 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:58,720 me and three babies at one time, which was really difficult was 650 00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:03,560 we have to remove the middle seat in the minivan just in 651 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,280 order for me to get in and out of the van. 652 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,440 It's difficulty just finding enough car seats that was small 653 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,200 enough, but big enough for the babies to fit in the van with me 654 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,280 in the van to get them home from the hospital. 655 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,360 So initially we had a nanny to help out, but you know, it was 656 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,880 still really difficult. The nanny needed some time. 657 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,480 And what were we going to do when the nanny left here? 658 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:28,440 My wife was also my caregiver. Just to tell you what feeding 659 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,440 time was like. You know, when we had no nanny 660 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,640 is we'd have the three boys in the high chairs around the table 661 00:35:35,720 --> 00:35:39,240 and me and my wife Anna all at the same table. 662 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,480 And my wife would give a bite of food to my son Joey, then a bite 663 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,680 of food to my son Jimmy, then a bite of food to my son Timmy, 664 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:52,120 then a bite of food to Daddy to me, then a bite of food to mommy 665 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,720 to Anna. And we'd go around the circle 666 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,600 and that's how we would eat. I tell you, it was quite a show, 667 00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,440 Jay. If anybody was there to watch 668 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:00,000 it. I love. 669 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:06,080 It and so how how did fatherhood overall like change how you like 670 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,160 approach like your work or approach like your day-to-day or 671 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,120 even like approach like your own like personal like struggles and 672 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:15,680 things like that? How did it? 673 00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:16,920 How did it change things for you? 674 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,040 Well. It changed it in every way you 675 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,440 could possibly think of. Firstly, it took my mind off 676 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:29,760 myself and my disability and all the worries I had about how I 677 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,320 was going to get through each day. 678 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,600 And I spent most of each day worrying about my boys, my 679 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,840 children. I spent hours and hours 680 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,200 wondering how are we going to work, make this work and how am 681 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:41,800 I going to be able to provide for. 682 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,800 I know when I was injured, one, my father, you know, really 683 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:50,000 stepped up and he provided me with whatever financial help I 684 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,480 needed. And I really questioned would I 685 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,640 be in a position to not only support myself and my wife, but 686 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:58,880 three children? I mean, I had a good job. 687 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,680 I was working as an assistant District Attorney, but raising 3 688 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:07,160 kids as well as my medical expenses was a substantial sum I 689 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,840 knew I would need. And unfortunately, since I 690 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,440 couldn't help with the physical care at all, I knew my role was 691 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,640 mostly as a provider, you know, to continue to provide support 692 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:19,720 for my wife and for my my children. 693 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,200 And, you know, I was worried what would happen if I ever lost 694 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,520 my job. You know, how would we make this 695 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,480 work? And Jay, I think I worried 696 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,160 morning, noon and night how we were going to make this work. 697 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:35,640 And it just changed my whole perspective on things, on life 698 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,800 and a reason to live, you know, Now I knew every second I was 699 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:44,440 devoting my life to making my boys life as good, as pleasant, 700 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,440 as wonderful it could possibly be. 701 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,680 And in fact, I even appreciated more how devastating it must 702 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,040 have been for my father when he learned of my injury. 703 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,000 You know, if I even thought that anything could happen to one of 704 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,560 my children, it would be devastating. 705 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,320 And it made me think about all of those things. 706 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,640 But it just puts so much pleasure to my life, so many 707 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:11,680 smiles just to look at my boys and just feel so good about 708 00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:15,320 watching them grow and develop and watching my wife care for 709 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,640 them. And it changed everything in my 710 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,960 life for the better, every single thing for the better, 711 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,200 right? Add that whenever people saw me 712 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,720 with my boys, they always thought I was their grandfather. 713 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,000 And people always come up and say, oh, you must be such a 714 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,440 proud grandfather. So that always put things in 715 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,840 perspective for me as well. Definitely. 716 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:37,240 It's been great. I love. 717 00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:40,840 It and so that's, that's so cool because I, it's so cool to learn 718 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:42,600 about other people's like fatherhood journeys. 719 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,480 And you know, we, we all share a lot of the same things across 720 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,320 the across the lines, right? No matter where you are, just 721 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,000 the smiles, the joy. And honestly, do you think if 722 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,800 you wouldn't have had the boys if things didn't work out back 723 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,640 in the early 2000s, do you think you would have had the same, I 724 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:03,000 guess, motivation and will to keep going on if you didn't have 725 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:04,600 the boys? Definitely not. 726 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:06,440 Definitely not. I mean it. 727 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,520 It gave me a wonderful reason to get up every morning with a 728 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:14,640 smile on my face and to try and look happy and positive because 729 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,120 I didn't. I never wanted my children to 730 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,320 see me depressed in the least little way, or to see that I was 731 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,000 worried about anything, you know? 732 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,280 I wanted to put on a happy face and help and support them and my 733 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:32,400 wife in every way possible and it it just gave me a reason you 734 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,760 want to not only survive but achieve more and more to make my 735 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,840 children proud of me as well. And I guess my last question 736 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,880 before we'll wrap up here is what how did you deal with like 737 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:49,680 the the mental side of things, seeing your boys grow up, play, 738 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,120 be physical. How did you deal with that side 739 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:53,640 of it? Because I know that part still 740 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:55,240 in you, your mind still there, right? 741 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,000 Being able to think back to when you were an athlete, things like 742 00:39:58,000 --> 00:39:59,360 that. How did you deal with the mental 743 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:04,720 side of it knowing like? I they're asking Daddy, daddy, 744 00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:06,560 play with us, play with us, play with those kind of thing. 745 00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:09,720 How did you deal with like those like, I guess like heartbreaking 746 00:40:09,720 --> 00:40:12,160 moments, like for yourself, knowing like I can't play catch 747 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:13,920 with you. I I can't throw you around. 748 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,320 I can't do this that and the other with you kind of thing. 749 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,080 How did you deal with like the mental side of that? 750 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,040 You know it. Was really difficult, you know, 751 00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:23,880 as I indicated, growing up, my life revolved around sports, 752 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,920 morning, noon and night. And I remember my father at a 753 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,560 very young age teaching me how to throw, catch and hit a 754 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:35,240 baseball and I knew I cannot do that for my boys and I felt 755 00:40:35,240 --> 00:40:38,000 really sad about that. It was devastating. 756 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,480 Unfortunately, my brother stepped up and provided a bit of 757 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,720 a, a role model and help doing that as well and you know, 758 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,000 helping them with some physical activity. 759 00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:52,000 But my boys do early on that it was important to remain in good 760 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,680 physical shape. And we tried to expose them to 761 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,000 still a lot of activities. We took them roller skating, we 762 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:03,200 had them involved in intramural basketball, we tried intramural 763 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,400 wrestling, we did archery. We tried to expose them to a 764 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,240 lot. And as it turned out, what they 765 00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:12,480 took an interest in was martial arts. 766 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:17,440 One of them wanted to pursue martial arts and we took them to 767 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,720 a demonstration and they liked it. 768 00:41:19,720 --> 00:41:24,160 And we enrolled them in a school teaching Taekwondo and they 769 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,120 loved it. And all three of my boys now are 770 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:31,840 second degree black belts in they've also studied Brazilian 771 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:33,880 Jiu Jitsu. And I felt so good. 772 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,320 One of my concerns was growing up. 773 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:38,080 So there. Was a lot of beating up on each 774 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,440 other as they were growing. Up, yeah, but also other. 775 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,080 Maybe they'd be bullied and they wouldn't be able to defend 776 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:45,960 themselves. And I couldn't help. 777 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,360 And here I was so glad to see that they like martial arts. 778 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,840 I was certainly worried about them being in sport. 779 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,720 But they liked it, pursued it. They later became instructors in 780 00:41:56,720 --> 00:41:58,640 IT. They were instructing other kids 781 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:03,720 in Taekwondo and and they're best friends my boys, so they 782 00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:06,280 never fought amongst each other. They've always been very 783 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:07,800 supportive and helped each other. 784 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,960 Here they are second degree black belts in Taekwondo. 785 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:15,360 My boys are now 20 years old. They're juniors at 3 separate 786 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,520 colleges in upstate New York, ones at State University of New 787 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:23,120 York at Morrisville, studying renewable energy, ones at 788 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:28,320 Syracuse University pursuing a dual major in communications and 789 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,000 public affairs and wants to be a journalist. 790 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:35,960 And my third, Joey is actually at my coma alma mater, Cornell 791 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:40,040 University. He's mechanical engineering and 792 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,680 they're all doing just great and I am just so proud of it, I can 793 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:44,840 tell. How proud you are just talking 794 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,880 about them and you thinking back through the stories like you, 795 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,840 like I can tell there there's a part, right, that you know, 796 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,920 there that natural part of you as a father, right, that feels, 797 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:55,960 you know, for the things that you didn't get to do. 798 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,680 But overall, I can tell very much so that you're you're just 799 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,160 so happy, so pleased and so proud of how things did turn out 800 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,520 long term. And it's really great to see. 801 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,120 Best part of my life. No, no question about it. 802 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:12,240 And it's it's just wonderful to spend time with my children, but 803 00:43:12,240 --> 00:43:17,320 also to see how well they get along with each other and our 804 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,040 best friends. And in fact, last weekend we 805 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,760 were up at Cornell visiting my son Joseph. 806 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,880 And unfortunately, he had an attack, appendicitis, and had to 807 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,200 go to the hospital. And, you know, we spend a good 808 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,320 deal of time sitting by his bedside while he was in the 809 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,320 hospital getting the appropriate treatment. 810 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:39,160 And his two brothers came often, you know, to visit and help when 811 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,960 they could. And I know it's so frustrating 812 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:47,120 for me not to physically be able to help, but it's so encouraging 813 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,400 to see his brothers helping in any way they can. 814 00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,800 And in fact, they've remained so close these times, I think. 815 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,320 That's so comforting to like, as a, as a father, like knowing 816 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,440 that, you know, 'cause when, when that, you know, natural 817 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,400 time comes for all of us, you know, like, you can rest easier 818 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,400 knowing like, OK, they got each other. 819 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:08,480 They got each other, right? They're gonna be OK. 820 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,120 I think that's amazing. All right, Ken. 821 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,240 Well, let's jump into the dad zone here and then wrap this 822 00:44:13,240 --> 00:44:14,800 thing up, shall we? Sure. 823 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,080 Our Dad Zone's design has a few questions that kind of bring our 824 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,600 conversation to wrap up a conclusion here with some fun, 825 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,080 because sometimes we get into heavy topics, sometimes we talk 826 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,280 a lot of things that may be a little bit heavy. 827 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,240 So a little fun at the end never hurts anyone. 828 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,280 And so the dad's own first question is, does pineapple go 829 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:31,240 on pizza? None of. 830 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,440 My pizza and it's never gone at any of my kids pizza but they 831 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,760 enjoy a lot of different foods and I might add my wife's a 832 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,600 vegetarian so white boys have grown up knowing their mother 833 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,840 doesn't eat meat or fish and they all have different types of 834 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,560 appetite and foods they enjoy but pineapple on pizza is not 835 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,160 one of them good. Who are three people, dead or 836 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,280 alive, that you would like to invite over to have dinner with 837 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:56,000 you? Well. 838 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,360 One of them, of course, would be Barack Obama. 839 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,840 I have found him to be such an inspirational figure. 840 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:06,040 And the fact that he grew up having, you know, one parent who 841 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,640 was African American and one that was white in many ways 842 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,320 reminds me of my relationship with my wife. 843 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,480 I mean, my wife and I are different in so many ways. 844 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,080 One of them is she is Catholic and I am Jewish. 845 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:24,000 So growing up, we've exposed my boys to both religions, right? 846 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,880 We celebrate holidays for both religions at our home. 847 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,920 And I wanted them to be exposed to the fact that there are 848 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,000 people with very diverse backgrounds that not only can 849 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,360 get along but learn a lot from each other. 850 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:42,760 So I found Barack Obama to be a perfect example of how somebody 851 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,800 with his background could rise to be one of the what most 852 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:48,720 inspirational people in the world. 853 00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:53,200 Very cool to more people. Well, one is, you know, in terms 854 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,360 of meeting people, I'm still active in the Viscardi Center 855 00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:00,400 where I work before I went to law school, and I bought my boys 856 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,640 there a number of times, and I wanted them to see that people 857 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:08,360 with disabilities can be so helpful and still do so much for 858 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,000 so many other people. So I've met people at the 859 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:15,000 Viscardi Center without picking out anyone in particular. 860 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:20,000 I find so many of them are just so inspiring when I see not only 861 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,800 the hardships that they face they've overcome, but how they 862 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,640 handled the daily challenges in their lives and how they've gone 863 00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:29,240 on. They help others love it. 864 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:31,720 And then one is one piece of advice that you would offer to a 865 00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:34,880 new dad, aged 18 to 22, just starting out his fatherhood 866 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,320 journey basically. To be there with your children, 867 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,400 they look at you, they look towards you for help, advice, 868 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:45,480 for guidance, for inspiration. And we all know that we don't 869 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,000 know all the answers, that we're often learning at the same time 870 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,240 our children are learning. But to do your best to be 871 00:46:52,240 --> 00:46:56,040 attentive to your children's needs, to recognize that what 872 00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,520 they really want is somebody who could be patient with them, who 873 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,840 could be understanding, and somebody who can help guide them 874 00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:07,280 to develop the right values and the right character to become 875 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:09,880 the best individual they could possibly be. 876 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:11,840 I love. It all right, Ken well now for 877 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:16,280 the clear take away of the CTRA of this episode of the Ctras are 878 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,960 an opportunity for you to listen or to reflect and to think back 879 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,800 on this episode and to know what you're taking away and some 880 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:23,760 reflection and some action for you moving forward. 881 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,240 So the take away I want you to have this week is limits are 882 00:47:26,240 --> 00:47:28,240 real. So is agency standards and 883 00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:30,720 systems turned hope into outcome reflection. 884 00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:33,240 Where are you lowering your expectations because the path 885 00:47:33,240 --> 00:47:35,920 isn't paved and action? Pick one quote UN quote 886 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:39,160 impossible goal, right the first unglamorous step and do it for 887 00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:42,280 the next 24 hours and then tell someone who will hold you to it. 888 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,000 So if you want to go back through that CTRA for this week, 889 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,680 go to rewind the last 30 seconds and it'll be right there. 890 00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,040 One thing I do want to share is of course, a little bit about 891 00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:51,360 Ken, where you can connect with him. 892 00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:56,480 See more of his work right here on KENKUNKE n.com. 893 00:47:56,720 --> 00:47:58,520 This is where you can find more about Ken. 894 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,240 You can find about feedback, media, podcast events, contact 895 00:48:02,240 --> 00:48:03,840 information. You can purchase his book as 896 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:07,040 well, all right here on his website and you can purchase I 897 00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,920 Dream of Things but never were and hear more of his story. 898 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,320 You can also hear his story, a sample of the audio book here on 899 00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,520 YouTube as well. So lots of great stuff on his 900 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:17,480 website here. So please do check this out. 901 00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,400 Definitely helps and supports Ken in the work that he's doing 902 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,800 and being able to share his story to a larger audience cuz 903 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,080 the story is inspiring. So it's fantastic. 904 00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,960 And with that, Ken, thank you so much for your time today. 905 00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,240 Thank you for reminding us that standard shaped stories and that 906 00:48:33,240 --> 00:48:36,320 service outlast setbacks. If this episode moved you, the 907 00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,680 listener, share it with a friend who needs proof that courage 908 00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:40,760 scales. Remember to rate, review, 909 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,520 subscribe, and do all the things you can to support the podcast. 910 00:48:43,720 --> 00:48:46,160 And we'll bring you more real conversations that make us 911 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,240 better men, better dads, and better neighbors. 912 00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:50,920 And until next time, right here on the Young Dad Podcast.