1 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:17,560 Hi, welcome to the latest episode. 2 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,160 Call Me Mistress. I'm your Hostess, Mistress Mia, 3 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:24,080 and today I bring you a special guest, one from Maryland, one 4 00:00:24,080 --> 00:00:26,760 from Missouri, The Show me state. 5 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,560 And you're getting ready to show us so much with your book. 6 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,360 I bring you Alicia Walker and Arielle Kuperberg. 7 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,360 So ladies, welcome to the show. Thanks for having us. 8 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,600 Absolutely. I know we tried this before, so 9 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:46,800 we're going to give it a whirl. But you all wrote this wonderful 10 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:51,320 book bound by BDSM, unexpected lessons for building a happier 11 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,320 life. And I, I love this book. 12 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:59,480 Myself and Edie Boleyn, we both read it and she is of one of the 13 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:03,680 Doms in the dungeon. She is very insightful, very 14 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,600 intellectual about the psychology behind BDSM. 15 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:11,560 And so we really have extensive conversations about it, but you 16 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:13,280 know, it's great. And like I said, we really 17 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,320 enjoyed the book and we were talking a lot specifically about 18 00:01:16,320 --> 00:01:18,720 the different topics that you've brought up that really isn't 19 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:23,720 covered in a lot of BDSM, you know, literature quite 20 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:25,920 truthfully. So that's why I was kind of a 21 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,160 refreshing to read yours. And I was like, oh, this is 22 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,360 great. You know, you lay it out so 23 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,600 easily for people to really comprehend so. 24 00:01:33,960 --> 00:01:35,920 Thank you. Yeah, I loved it. 25 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,760 So, Ariel, would you tell us how how you all started this? 26 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,240 How did you all meet? We met probably over 10 years 27 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:47,640 ago at this point on a Facebook group, actually for academic 28 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:49,040 mothers. And there was a long 29 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,080 introductory thread and everyone was kind of like introducing 30 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,280 themselves and saying what they did research on. 31 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,760 And Alicia introduced herself and I think she mentioned she 32 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:02,280 had just done a study on women who had affairs with other 33 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:04,280 women. But I identified as straight and 34 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,160 I had been working on a study that was on college students who 35 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,080 said they were straight but who had hooked up with same sex 36 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,160 partners. And I was kind of stuck on the 37 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,520 project. And I was like, hey, we should 38 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:18,840 work together and you should help me actually finish writing 39 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,640 this paper. And since then we became like 40 00:02:21,640 --> 00:02:23,960 really good friends. We started off chatting on 41 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,760 Facebook and having, we still chat probably daily on Facebook 42 00:02:28,640 --> 00:02:31,680 and now we've met, you know, several times over the years now 43 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,600 at conferences and stuff. But that was, I think we 44 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,960 originally had this kind of shared interest in sexuality 45 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,600 topics. And yeah, we've been 46 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:43,920 collaborating ever since then. That's wonderful. 47 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,400 And so you all came about to discover how you were going to 48 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,000 write this book. So, Alicia, how did you start 49 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,560 that? I had about 6 different students 50 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,360 independent of each other just approach me after class and say 51 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,240 hey have you ever thought about studying BDSM? 52 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:05,160 In the first like 3 or so I said, no, I, I haven't really 53 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,200 thought about it. And by the 4th 1 I started 54 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,600 thinking maybe I should start thinking about it. 55 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,840 And so I approached Arielle because I love working with her. 56 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:18,480 And I said, hey, you know, what if we did this project and she 57 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:22,920 was game. So we, we designed a survey and 58 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,400 interview protocol and we launched the study and Arielle 59 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,080 came up with this great idea to post invitations to participate 60 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,560 in Reddit, sub subgroups, subreddits and got a lot of 61 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:39,000 folks that way. And then we had a large group of 62 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,120 undergraduate researchers who were helping helping us. 63 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,960 And a lot of them were actually in the BESM community, which was 64 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:45,880 really helpful. And they helped kind of inform 65 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,240 the questions. And they were on Fetlife. 66 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:53,880 And so we got permission from Fetlife and put a call out there 67 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,840 as well. And pretty soon we had a really 68 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,400 large sample. This is actually the largest 69 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:04,760 study on BDSM to date. We had 96 completed interviews 70 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,840 and like 20 more than 2400 survey bugs that. 71 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:09,800 That's right. Yeah, yeah. 72 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,160 Yeah, I remember you saying it was almost 2500 people that you 73 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,000 did this survey and and you asked them several obviously 74 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,360 extensive questions. What kind of stuck out to you 75 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,440 when you were writing this, this survey? 76 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,000 What were you thinking? Like God, what are people really 77 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,160 into? Yeah, I think part of it was 78 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,240 finding out what are people into like when people say they're 79 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,040 BDSM practitioner, what does that actually mean in the like, 80 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,440 what have they actually done? What do they typically do? 81 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,280 So, yeah, I think as I said, I'm interested in like kind of 82 00:04:39,280 --> 00:04:43,440 hidden sexual behavior too. So that's just like, you know, 83 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,920 tell me the numbers, like, how often are people doing these 84 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,760 types of things? But we also asked a lot about 85 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,440 community benefits they had gotten from the BDSM community. 86 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,440 That was something I was interested in having had some 87 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,480 like, different encounters with the BDSM community. 88 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:05,480 So in some ways, like I grew up in a very religious community 89 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,840 and there were some aspects of the BDSM community that you 90 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,320 wouldn't think they'd have anything in common, but I think 91 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,920 they do just that like sense of community and all these kind of 92 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,560 like non sexual benefits that people are getting from it. 93 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,160 So yeah, we had a lot of questions on that. 94 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,800 We had questions on like how many friends do you have who are 95 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:30,120 into BDSM and, you know, life and their attitudes, all sorts 96 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,840 of different questions. Yeah, that's, that's incredible. 97 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,440 I know you all had talked about in your book specifically you 98 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:43,160 said that you were losing community and you had to, you 99 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,720 said specifically you put in what you get back in the BDSM 100 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,840 community. So I thought, you know, it's 101 00:05:49,840 --> 00:05:52,120 entirely true. I I try to explain to people in 102 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,080 our area, we don't have the really the best community. 103 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:59,880 I find that there's a lot of cliques and it's really strange. 104 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,720 I find it really strange because parts of them kind of frown upon 105 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,120 crossdressers and then I don't know it. 106 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:14,080 It's just, I want it to be a non judgmental group, but it 107 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:18,120 sometimes people, I don't know if it's, I don't know, maybe if 108 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,480 it's just the lack of education with people I don't know. 109 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,200 But that's just been my experiences. 110 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,480 I think every community has some like inherent problems and 111 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:33,640 disagreements and like, you know, things that people feel 112 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,120 really passionate about that people outside the community 113 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,040 would have like no idea what they're talking about. 114 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,120 But yeah, I think there's also, I don't know, for me, I moved 115 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,280 last year, I moved states after living in the same place for 15 116 00:06:46,280 --> 00:06:49,200 years. And like, as I was writing this 117 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,880 book, thinking about like, how do people form communities? 118 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:53,920 How do people find that sense of connection? 119 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,160 And I think that's something a lot of people are kind of 120 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,000 thinking about these days as if you've read, people have talked 121 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,120 about there's no, you know, people don't have community. 122 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,080 They all stay home. They're on their like Facebook 123 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,640 all or, you know, not Facebook whatever young people do. 124 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,920 Like that's the one. Yeah. 125 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,160 Like the, you know, they're all on their computer all day and 126 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:16,800 like not interacting with people. 127 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,240 And I think people want more of a sense of community. 128 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,760 And it's it was interesting to see like there's this whole 129 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:29,200 build up community with all these rules and kind of social 130 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,760 ideas about how you should do things. 131 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:36,760 But it also that kind of leads BDSM partitioners to have this 132 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,280 built in community that gives them all these benefits that 133 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,440 they could kind of like step into very easily. 134 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:46,520 OK, now Alicia, in the book you all mentioned that a lot of 135 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:52,320 people say that when they get into the BDSM community, almost 136 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:57,680 feels like it's home to them. Yeah, that came up a lot in the 137 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,320 interviews. People talked about discovering 138 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,280 BDSM and like finally feeling like they could fully be 139 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,560 themselves and they were fully accepted and they found people 140 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,360 like them and that it was very much like coming home. 141 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,040 And you know, what a wonderful gift that is. 142 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,640 How many people never really find that for themselves? 143 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,120 You know, lots of folks just kind of wonder around sort of 144 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,120 like where is my place? Where exactly do I fit in? 145 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:27,280 And so I think that was just really powerful for folks to say 146 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:32,760 and really stuck with me as just not an unfortunately not an 147 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,000 experience that everyone has. Yeah, because I felt like when I 148 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,919 saw that that one part of a chapter where you talked about 149 00:08:40,159 --> 00:08:43,679 freedom for society, expectations, and then it just 150 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,800 kind of rolled into the gender burdens that some people 151 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,760 experience it to me, it's resonated because I think about 152 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,120 the primary people that come to see me are cross dressers. 153 00:08:55,640 --> 00:09:01,240 And, you know, I feel like so much of what they experience is 154 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,360 problematic in their life, that they can't be who they are, you 155 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,720 know, and we see that a lot of times too, with where it goes 156 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:10,600 from cross dressers. They'll start off as a cross 157 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,400 dresser, then they'll go into being a transgender person and 158 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,680 so forth and just kind of expand from there in their life. 159 00:09:16,680 --> 00:09:19,080 But I don't know what else have you all? 160 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:19,960 Yeah. Go ahead. 161 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,200 You were going to say Ari? I was going to say, I think 162 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,080 there's a lot of areas and gender is definitely one of a 163 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,000 major one, especially right now. I feel like in this current 164 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,000 moment, but there are a lot of places in society where like 165 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,920 society expects you to behave one way and that may not be the 166 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,840 way that feels authentic to you. So I feel like when there's that 167 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,440 tension, like you want to find some place where you could. 168 00:09:40,560 --> 00:09:43,840 I think last time when we had our like, failed attempt to 169 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,440 record this last week, you talked about like catharsis. 170 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,680 I think there's like catharsis to be able to like reconcile, 171 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:55,520 like and be accepted for parts of yourself that society is 172 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,000 like, don't do this, but you're like, but I really want to do 173 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,480 this. And then finding people who are 174 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,240 like, well, that's cool. You could do that and you could 175 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,800 like be yourself around us is, I think, very powerful. 176 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:08,600 It really is. It really is. 177 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,760 So Alicia, when you go into embracing vulnerabilities, when 178 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,960 you all were discussing this in your book, you were talking 179 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,520 about finding people and trusting certain people with 180 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,120 your secret. How were people gauging with 181 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,240 that? Like was it specifically they 182 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,200 would go on Fetlife? Would they try to find the 183 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,000 community like that? So it depended. 184 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,560 Some people found community by going to munches and play 185 00:10:33,560 --> 00:10:38,920 parties, some people only had community online fetlife or 186 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:43,680 Reddit, or some people were even in BDSM Facebook groups. 187 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:49,240 So it depended on what access folks had because you may live 188 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:55,200 in a place where there isn't ABDSM community or maybe you 189 00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:58,120 don't know that there is. So for example, I know that 190 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,600 there's a BDSM community here in Springfield's, but if I didn't 191 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,560 know that, I would not know that, you know, if you just like 192 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:07,360 ran a Google search or something, it would seem that 193 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:12,800 there isn't 1 at all. And so unless you stumble on to 194 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:17,200 someone who can kind of, you know, be a realtor into that 195 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:21,360 community, you, you wouldn't have one locally and you might 196 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,440 end up resorting to online, even though there is actually a 197 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,280 community available to you here. And, and I understand why the 198 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,640 local community isn't necessarily super visible 199 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:33,640 online. I can see where pit books would 200 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,080 feel like it's not a very safe place here to do that. 201 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:40,320 It's pretty conservative here, so you know, it's a delicate 202 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,560 line and a lot of places for folks to walk. 203 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,040 You know, how do we connect with like minded folks but also keep 204 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,440 ourselves safe? Yeah, that's interesting. 205 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,080 So Ariel, what has been your favorite part of the book that 206 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,000 you've spoken about and you've written about? 207 00:11:55,840 --> 00:12:00,320 I I feel like my favorite part writing about was there was a 208 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,840 chapter just on like what is PDSN and what do people do? 209 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:08,360 And I like, there was a lot of like I knew a lot of it, but 210 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,280 there was even more stuff I hadn't heard of that I went and 211 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,840 researched on. And I don't know, just having 212 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,400 those numbers of like, how often do people do this? 213 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,600 How often are people doing that? And like, let's read all about 214 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,720 like Easton or whatever topic of the day I'm reading about. 215 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:25,840 I thought that was really interesting. 216 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,640 I thought I really like the chapter. 217 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:34,240 We also wrote on community and all the non BDSM communities 218 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,160 people were involved with. I did some of the analysis of 219 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,960 like we had a survey question of just like what other communities 220 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:48,320 are you a part of that also meet up in person regularly and 221 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,480 looking and trying to like sort them and figure out like how do 222 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,320 we categorize these? And so for instance, a lot of 223 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,800 people were into like what I would call like creativity, like 224 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,440 creating things or playing music or doing art projects or 225 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:07,000 exercise or role-playing was a big one, wearing costumes. 226 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,800 And then we we're kind of in that with like the BDSM 227 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,360 community incorporates all these different things that just 228 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,680 humans like to do in their free time. 229 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:18,680 But I thought it was really interesting to be like, what do 230 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:20,240 humans like to do in their free time? 231 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,480 And yeah, as I said, you know, moving last year and trying to 232 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,960 completely restart my social life in my mid 40s, I feel like 233 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,720 I got a lot of insights and kind of was able to use stuff from 234 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,080 the book to like, they're like, OK, you have to, like, show up 235 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:38,680 to the same place over and over again. 236 00:13:38,680 --> 00:13:41,840 So I'm going to go do that and, like, make some friends. 237 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:43,600 And it actually worked. So yeah. 238 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,960 So as the personal question I have are, were you 2 actually 239 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,760 active before all of this at all in the BDSM community? 240 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,640 Like, did you go to a function to kind of explore things? 241 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,560 So I had had some encounters with the BDSM community when I 242 00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:05,880 was younger. I would say my spouse is kind of 243 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:10,440 super vanilla. So I did end up married to 244 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:11,920 someone who's like crazy vanilla. 245 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:18,120 But when I was in my 20s, I dated a BDSM practitioner for a 246 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,480 little bit, and I had some friends who were active in the 247 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:25,360 BDSM community, and I went thanks toy shopping with some of 248 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,720 them. So I've had some encounters, but 249 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,080 we didn't, yeah, we didn't do as much like participant 250 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:31,920 observation as I feel like we could have. 251 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,080 We didn't, we didn't, we didn't have IRB approval for that. 252 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,160 That's the big thing. We were not approved to attend 253 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,400 anything like that. I did get some invitations from 254 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,640 folks that I interviewed and some very kind invitations that 255 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:49,720 I had to pass on because I did not have IRB approval for that. 256 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:57,760 And prior to initiating the study, no, I had never, I had 257 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:03,120 read about BDSM dungeons when I was in college, actually an 258 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:08,360 undergrad, but more as like professional, you know, like you 259 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,280 like folks that have a dungeon and that's like their profession 260 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,680 is to do that. So I, I was aware of it from 261 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:19,920 that, from that aspect. I don't even think I ever dated. 262 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,320 If I dated someone who was into BDSM, they didn't tell me they 263 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:26,120 were into BDSM. Doesn't mean I didn't obviously. 264 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,880 And yeah, I don't think I've ever been invited to any. 265 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,040 No, I don't think I've ever had any invitations whatsoever. 266 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,680 Maybe I haven't lived in the right place or I, I don't know. 267 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:38,560 But no, I've never ever been invited. 268 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,320 A cool thing, though, while I was interviewing folks is people 269 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,160 kept saying, well, I can just tell from interacting with you, 270 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,000 even over e-mail, that you have like a really dominant 271 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,200 personality. And I really like dominant 272 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,240 women. And I remember telling my mom I 273 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,800 was like, I'm very jealous. And I feel like if I weren't to 274 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,680 BDSM, it would solve a lot of things in my life because no one 275 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,760 in my regular life ever says, I really love that You're a 276 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,360 dominant woman so. That is too funny. 277 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,760 So I was going to say the reason why I asked that, because were 278 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,160 you all like it? Was it really a big shock to you 279 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,720 when you listen to some of these people talk about things and 280 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,880 answer your surveys? Was it more or less like, oh 281 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,240 really? I had like, I'm like, I have 282 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,600 been studying sex and teaching about sex for almost 20 years. 283 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:30,560 So I wouldn't say it was like anything super shocking for me 284 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,640 personally, but it was interesting. 285 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:41,120 I mean, I, yeah, I think I, I interview people about their sex 286 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,720 lives all the time. And I had interviewed people who 287 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:49,400 were BDSM participants for other studies that were not about 288 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,480 BDSM. So it had come up in other 289 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,520 interviews. So it wasn't really shocking 290 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,720 exactly. It was just interesting. 291 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:04,920 I think folks were it was like really important to people that 292 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,599 we understood that hey, we're your neighbors, we're your Co 293 00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:11,800 workers, we're your friends, we're your family. 294 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:13,920 You know, we're not these like super strange people. 295 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:18,119 Like media wants to paint us. And people talked a lot about 296 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,720 like the stigma that they feel all the time, which made the 297 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,480 fact that every single person I interviewed was so happy all the 298 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,359 more surprising. You know, you're talking about, 299 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,800 oh, I'm a part of this like super stigmatized group and it 300 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:35,000 has to be like really secretive, but I'm like insanely happy. 301 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,360 You know, that really made that stick out. 302 00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:40,240 I don't, I've never interviewed another group of folks for a 303 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,800 study where every single person I talked to was like really 304 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:44,960 happy. So that was to me, the more 305 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:50,240 surprising thing than any specific sexual practice or PDSM 306 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,440 practice that anybody talked to me about. 307 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:57,840 And that was that was the main premise of your book, was that 308 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:03,320 everyone that you engaged with in this this study was. 309 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,600 Happy. Yes, yes. 310 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,720 And I think, yeah. And, and it's funny because 311 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,600 since then I've collected data for a different study. 312 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,600 And there's been a lot of people in that study who also do BDSM 313 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,680 who've asked me about the book. And when I said, oh, yeah, you 314 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:20,920 know, it was like, really wild. Everybody was so happy. 315 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,120 They look at me like, why would that be? 316 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,880 I'm like, OK, if you're not in the BDSM community like that, 317 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,240 it's actually very unusual. And so, yeah, that became the 318 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,880 basis for the book because I kept saying to Ariel, like the 319 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,280 big thing that all these people have in common is that they're 320 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,880 like, really, really happy and like, what's going on? 321 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:39,840 Why are people, Cuz I've interviewed other people who are 322 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,640 sexually fulfilled. So I knew it wasn't just, oh, 323 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:44,760 they're sexually fulfilled, it's something else. 324 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,160 So yeah, for me that was that was way more surprising than any 325 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,760 particular. And people did go into, like, 326 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,520 great detail about the scenes that they participated in, the 327 00:18:55,520 --> 00:19:00,120 practices they were into. But yeah, the how happy everyone 328 00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:01,600 was the most shocking thing, yeah. 329 00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:05,080 And do you think maybe just the reason is that they can actually 330 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:09,040 gauge with other people in a community and they can actually 331 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,600 be completely honest with what they want with other people 332 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,160 without judgement? Yeah, I think it's the 333 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:21,440 authenticity, it's the level of trust and communication and that 334 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,480 sense of community. And I've said this Ariel, 335 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,720 before, but I was jealous talking to folks. 336 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:28,920 You know, they're talking about like, I've got this group of 30 337 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,120 people that I have holidays with and, and game nights or 338 00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:34,480 whatever. And, and, you know, I want to 339 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,240 throw myself a party for getting full professor and I don't have 340 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,080 30 people in the same town. I could advise something like 341 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,040 really jealous of y'all, you know, your network of folks. 342 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,600 I mean, I think that's impressive in general, but 343 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,640 especially in the world we live in right now, where loneliness 344 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,320 is, is in an epidemic and, and people are not as connected like 345 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,040 Arielle was saying earlier. Yeah. 346 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:56,440 I think so. No, no, no. 347 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:57,360 Go right ahead. Go ahead. 348 00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,120 Oh, I was going to add, I think yeah, it's. 349 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,520 I mean, the premise of the book ended up being like, what is it 350 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,760 about BDSM that makes people so happy? 351 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,880 And there's community, there's the ability to be authentic, the 352 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:14,520 ability to kind of break these strict norms about gender and 353 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:18,120 how we're supposed to be. But there's also, like, it 354 00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:21,000 allows you to exercise your creativity, which I think is 355 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,840 something that, like, humans are happier when they can be 356 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:25,920 creative. Humans are happier when they can 357 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,880 like connect with other people. And it just kind of incorporates 358 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,360 all these different things into it that it's kind of like, we 359 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,520 call it like a blueprint, Like there's like here, just like 360 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:39,760 live your life this way. And it incorporates all these 361 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,680 different things about life that like, makes people happy in 362 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,840 general or usually makes typically makes people happy. 363 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,360 Right. Yeah. 364 00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:50,440 So I think that's. Yeah. 365 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,640 That did end up becoming the book is like, what is it Like, I 366 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,920 remember we were talking at one point, Alicia was like, I don't 367 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:57,400 know what the story of this book is. 368 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,360 Like, I don't have anything except that they're really, 369 00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:02,640 really happy. And I'm like, well, maybe maybe 370 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,840 that's. And that did end up being the 371 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:06,640 story. It's like, what is it that makes 372 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:08,920 humans happy? And what is it that BDSM kind of 373 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,320 has built into it? But like, sexual pleasure is 374 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:17,280 also part of it too, I think. But yeah, I think the the 375 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,480 ability to like live authentically and talk to people 376 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,200 and be your like true authentic self and have that community is 377 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,120 also really important parts of it. 378 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:32,120 You know, I, I throw lifestyle parties probably 7 to 10 times a 379 00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:35,560 year. And when I host these parties, I 380 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,800 always get like vendors that will come that are in the 381 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:44,520 lifestyle and I will get, you know, entertainers that are part 382 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,720 of the lifestyle. Anyone that is kind of, you 383 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,000 know, under that umbrella of BDSM, I try to bring them 384 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,600 together. And I have gotten people that 385 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,760 have just come from all over the states for some of these events. 386 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,840 And I, it's flattering. It really is. 387 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,840 It's just, to me, it's just an incredible thing that people can 388 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,040 really just come together without judgement. 389 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,880 And like you said it, it really is so fulfilling for them that 390 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,480 they can express who they are. I said, you know, it's very sex 391 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:21,320 positive and people are just kind of like they're kind of 392 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,280 awestruck at 1st and just kind of dumbfounded because it's like 393 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,440 really, we can, we can do that here, you know, But we, we leave 394 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,720 the dungeon open and, and people just come and they just enjoy 395 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,000 every aspect of different things of the, of the party, whether 396 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,280 it's, you know, the drag show or the fire show or the, the, the 397 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,040 vendors, you know, selling paddles and whips and, and 398 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,200 seeing scenes. And we'll do like demos, you 399 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,560 know, rope demos and, and that kind of thing. 400 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,480 So it, it really is, it's so much fun. 401 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,880 And like you said, we're in this time where it's like we have to 402 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,440 be guarded and, and we're lonely at times. 403 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,800 And when people, you know, they don't have anyone to reach out 404 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,880 and really express themselves, it's just a sad thing. 405 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,040 So it's just a great thing that we can all be together and, you 406 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,920 know, experience the joys of, you know, human sexuality, you 407 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:16,440 know, without, without so many limitations, you know, But 408 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,720 Ariel, you said that you, you taught, you've been teaching 409 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:24,120 about sexuality, obviously for 20 years about this and, and the 410 00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:27,880 kinks and everything else. Now, did you all watch the show 411 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,920 Bonded? I did not. 412 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,720 OK, Well, I think when Alicia mentioned that, a lot of her 413 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:40,920 students were asking about, you know, writing about BDSM. 414 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:47,960 So there is a character, it's a show on Netflix and it's just a 415 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,000 a funny little drama, but it it's wait, I. 416 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,520 Have I have seen some of this? I think I've seen a few 417 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,360 episodes. Anyway, yeah, sorry I didn't 418 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,160 recognize the the title, but yeah, yeah, I did see a. 419 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,080 Little bit of it. So just in case the listeners 420 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,880 don't know. So it's she was a psych major, 421 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,520 she goes she's studying psychology and she's a college 422 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,480 student, but at the same time she's a professional dominatrix 423 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,640 and she doesn't necessarily work at a specific dungeon of her 424 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,440 own. I think she has like she goes to 425 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,840 rented space dungeon, but then she'll do a lot of outcall and 426 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,400 everything else. But she kind of talks about, 427 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,920 well, not really talks about, but a lot of the episodes are 428 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,560 about different genres. And it's just, it's the funniest 429 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,520 thing. It really is. 430 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,920 And it's, it's funny because after me doing this for 30 431 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,200 years, I always think like, is there really something else that 432 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,520 I don't know about? But I, you know, but I'm getting 433 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,440 ready to interview this gentleman. 434 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,880 And he's been a client and I interviewed him quite some time 435 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:54,000 ago and he was a little shy kind of about putting himself out 436 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,320 there. But he's, he's an absolute doll. 437 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,040 He's such a sweetheart. But his kink and I never 438 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,440 experienced this before was the rubber balls. 439 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,760 They're, they're those rubber bouncy balls and they make them 440 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,360 adult size. But what's interesting is a lot 441 00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:19,080 of them, they actually have insertable like penis inserts, 442 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,960 like vaginal type inserts in the structure of these bouncy balls. 443 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,400 And so one of my associates who's in the dungeon with me, 444 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:33,120 Liv, she she's a doll. But he's like, yeah, Madam Liv, 445 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:36,840 I just want to go out by the pool and I want you to bounce on 446 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,760 the bouncy ball for me. So here she is in her bikini, 447 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,840 and she's like, this is the easiest session I've ever done. 448 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:53,600 So, you know, in just, in just in your studies and you all 449 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:58,160 being professors, obviously it's like, do you think everyone has 450 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,120 a kink? I don't know if everyone has 451 00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:03,280 something that rises to the level of kink, but I think 452 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,840 everyone has a little something, you know, like I have a hand 453 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:13,680 thing, you know, like how somebody's hands look could be 454 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:20,200 like a big turn on or turn off, you know, like like it would, it 455 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,360 would be challenging for me to be really attracted to someone 456 00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:25,720 that I thought had not attractive hands, which is like 457 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,880 weird that I'm just a little strange side. 458 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,160 Is it like hands? Hands like vascular like hands? 459 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:38,480 Pretty hands. Men and women's hands, Yeah, no, 460 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,360 it's just a certain like and, and some of it maybe I think I 461 00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:45,680 do not have attractive hands. So it could be something about 462 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,720 projection. I really don't even know like 463 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:52,480 where and as you would like the shape, like the shape of the 464 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,960 hands and and. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for 465 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,040 sure. So I think probably everyone has 466 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:03,200 something, maybe not doesn't rise to the level of kink, but 467 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,680 they have a little something. What do you think? 468 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,480 Are you? She's like, I'm not telling you 469 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,360 about my hand fetish, but yeah. You. 470 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,160 Know, I think a lot of people, I mean, I'm not going to say like 471 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,280 100% of people have like a kink or something, but I think a lot 472 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:27,120 more than you would expect yeah. And I know what I do. 473 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:28,880 We haven't done like a kink survey. 474 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,160 Maybe I should do that. But I do like anonymous surveys 475 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:37,040 of my students sometimes in class and like, I don't know, my 476 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:45,080 class is now like over 70% queer and I mean so. 477 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,080 Yeah, right. Yeah, no. 478 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,520 And whenever we talk about anything, I always have students 479 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,200 come up to talk to me after class and like, or even like 480 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,480 writing this book. So many people have come out to 481 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,760 me as BDSM practitioners. Just this weekend alone, I had 482 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,480 two different people come out to me at like, I went to a show and 483 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,480 ran into some people and they were like, oh, you just wrote a 484 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,080 book about BDSM. Like me and my late husband 485 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:15,080 lived in like a 24/7 like dominant submissive arrangement. 486 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,800 And I was like OK cool. Like I hope you told. 487 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,360 Them to buy the book, right? For most, that book are real. 488 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,360 Geez. No, but like a lot of people 489 00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:30,000 since writing this book have like come out to me as BDSM 490 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:35,440 practitioners who I wouldn't. I mean, as I said, it's hard to 491 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,320 shock me, but it's like, it's not necessarily like the people 492 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,960 you would expect. Yeah, 'cause you, you think 493 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:43,800 they're going to look different, you know? 494 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:45,960 Yeah, you think they're? Going to be like goth and have a 495 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:46,880 lot. Of yeah. 496 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:52,240 Do something, but they're not like, they're just like typical 497 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,800 people. Well, you know, it's funny 498 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,920 because I've met swingers, you know, within the last 10-12 499 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,040 years and they said, well, you know, whenever 50 Shades of Grey 500 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,800 came out, that's when we really thought, oh, we could try to be 501 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,080 a swinger. We could try to go into that. 502 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,200 But growing up, I can remember the only BDSM movies, the story 503 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,320 of oh, which is to me is OK. And then the secretary, which to 504 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,960 me was a beautiful story. I love that, that movie. 505 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,040 That was that was the thing. It just like it always felt like 506 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,800 a bad stigma because I mean, they made her look crazy. 507 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,720 She was mental health and then then we had like 8mm with 508 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,720 Nicolas Cage in the 90s. It was like CD and made BDSM 509 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:35,320 just look like really dark. And so I think we just kind of 510 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,920 get stuck in our minds, like, but then Christian Grey came out 511 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,720 and Christian Grey is like, hot. Yeah, I feel like my first 512 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,680 encounters with BDSM was like Buffy the Vampire Slayer kind of 513 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:53,000 scenes and Stephen King books. Like there was Gerald's Game 514 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,000 where I don't know if you read that, but where he like, 515 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,480 handcuffs her to the bed and then dogs or something or yeah. 516 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,160 So yeah, I've read that in like middle school. 517 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,400 So that was like my first, yeah. I'm like, that was the first 518 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,560 time I really encountered BDSM. So there was like media stuff. 519 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,360 And yeah, that was probably like the early 90s that I first read 520 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,200 that. But yeah, there was some stuff, 521 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,720 but it was it was more like a joke or even today, like there 522 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:27,120 was an SNL Saturday Night Live episode recently where they had 523 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,600 Keenan Tom Thompson or Thomas or whatever his name is, the guy 524 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:36,520 who's been on forever talking about he's like doing only fans 525 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,280 and like sitting on a birthday cake. 526 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,720 But it was like a joke. Like the, yeah, like the, it's 527 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,000 usually shown as like the bad guy or like the, you know, the, 528 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,360 like the villain of the episode or the joke of the episode or 529 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,440 something like that. It's not shown in like a very 530 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,640 positive light. And I think 50 Shades, I 531 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,280 remember in 50 Shades of Grey, the book came out and I, I 532 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,080 remember someone reading it next to me on the train and I was 533 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,480 kind of like reading over their shoulder, like, what is this 534 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,040 book they're reading right next to me? 535 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,640 Now, see, when that came out, I remember I had a bunch of 536 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,720 students in my social sexuality class who were BDSM 537 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,280 practitioners who were raised in hell about 50 Shades and how 538 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,800 inaccurate it was and how much they hated it. 539 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,800 So I never ended up reading it. But have you seen the recent 540 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,040 Hulu show, The Dying for Sex show? 541 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,560 It's actually, yeah. It's actually based on a true 542 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:33,880 story about this woman who was on a quest to have an orgasm 543 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,360 with a partner before she dies of cancer. 544 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,440 It sounds really uplifting. It actually was though, in like 545 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:46,520 a weird way, but I think that was the most realistic portrayal 546 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,840 I think I've ever seen. Probably because it was based on 547 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,600 a true story. It's like an 8 episode limited 548 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,880 series kind of thing. Completely worth the time. 549 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,160 But yeah, it's not like making fun of it and not positioning 550 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,560 anybody as like a villain or anything like that. 551 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:06,000 So it really stands out because of what you're describing, which 552 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,240 I think is the norm, yeah. Yeah, 50 Shades of Grey. 553 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,320 It, there was this one scene at the very beginning, kind of like 554 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,880 already engaged with, you know, going out and seeing each other 555 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,280 and, you know, you took her to the infamous Red Room. 556 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,640 But he has her on the bed and he attaches A spreader bar to her 557 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,960 ankles and he flips her over and she's, you know, a hundred, 120 558 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:29,600 a 130 lbs. And I'm like, Oh my God, don't 559 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:30,760 do that. Gonna break her ankles. 560 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,440 You know, that's what I'm thinking in my mind. 561 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,160 But I mean, I know it wasn't accurate, but it just put it in 562 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,120 a sexy light for people. And that's what I, I try to keep 563 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:43,240 the positive with people on it. But I remember Exit to Eden, 564 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,760 that was another one. Rosie O'Donnell, Dan Aykroyd. 565 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,920 That was early what, early 90s, late 80s? 566 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,920 But great, funny movie. And again, it makes fun of BDSM. 567 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:55,760 So it's just like, come on, people. 568 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,560 Hollywood could do. Better Hollywood always likes 569 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,600 things that are, like, tawdry. And what's more tawdry than 570 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,840 alternative sex, right? Exactly, exactly. 571 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,960 But fun times it really is. It's interesting. 572 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,200 So do you all see a Part 2 to this to the book? 573 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,080 I think we're working on other projects now. 574 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,560 One of the things we're collecting data on now is 575 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,800 polyamory, so polyamorous relationships, and I think 576 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,160 that's going to be our next big book. 577 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,160 Other than we're also writing like a textbook about sex, 578 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,600 which, yeah, that's not really like a research study. 579 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:39,960 No, it's OK. It's all right. 580 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,840 Well, we have a lot of articles coming out though from this. 581 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,920 From this data, I could definitely see a project in the 582 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,560 future about female Doms. We did not. 583 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,720 I don't know about in the survey, but in the interviews I 584 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:57,760 think I only talked to maybe 8 of them. 585 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,800 So I could definitely see a future project that just focused 586 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,680 on female Doms. Yeah, we have a few other 587 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,560 articles we're working on getting out now. 588 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:10,719 One looks more into community participation and who benefits 589 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:15,440 the most from BDSM communities. We have one that's like floors 590 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:20,120 more about the masculinity and how men use BDSM to kind of 591 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,560 break these ideas about gender. So yeah, we have a few other 592 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,639 articles that are going to be more like scientific journal 593 00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:31,679 type articles, not a whole book, but we definitely have. 594 00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:34,400 I feel like we have like 5 in progress and I can't even keep 595 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:39,040 track of them anymore. It's a lot of data. 596 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,800 So, well, let me tell you. So if you're doing your research 597 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:48,000 on the polyamory topic here, the actual person who coined the 598 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,920 term was Morning Glory. You know this, right? 599 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,679 And I just happened to have Oberon Zell's private phone 600 00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:58,400 number. And but he was married to 601 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,480 Morning Glory and they actually had a, a commune of people 602 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,720 together. And he is a brilliant, brilliant 603 00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:09,200 man. I did an interview with him a 604 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,120 few years ago. I was actually going to do 605 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,880 another interview with him. I think he kind of likes me and 606 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,240 I kind of like him. But he's brilliant. 607 00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:20,440 He has, he has his doctorate in psychology. 608 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:25,560 He has written, Oh my goodness, probably 1212 to 20 books. 609 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:31,880 I mean, it's, it's incredible. They have, they have a lot of 610 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,800 merch of him because he's, you know, this, he looks like a 611 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,200 wizard. He's just a cool old sexy man, 612 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,640 you know? He's. 613 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:46,240 Great, he's great, but and his late wife sounded like just an 614 00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:49,200 absolute sweetheart. And you know, he was talking 615 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:54,320 about the concept of being Polly and how you know when you are in 616 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,680 a relationship, how not everyone in your in your relationship 617 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,560 within you know, two people can can meet all of your needs. 618 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,240 And at the time, I was kind of like, come on, This is why you 619 00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:09,240 marry your spouse. You know, they got to meet every 620 00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:11,600 need. Come on, you know, and you don't 621 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,280 want to think that. But then when you talk to him 622 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,120 more about it, he was just, it's very enlightening. 623 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,400 He's a very enlightened man. He's he's really, he's 624 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,760 incredible. Oberyn is a wonderful man. 625 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,080 I think Alicia has actually written a little bit about that 626 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,520 because she wrote a couple of books on infidelity, so non 627 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,640 consensual, non monogamy. And that was something she 628 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,240 talked about. I remember reading in one of 629 00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:41,080 your books, Alicia, about how we put all this stuff on an 630 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,200 individual marriage to like meet every single one of your needs 631 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,880 and they're supposed to be your best friend and everything else 632 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,480 in your whole life. And it's a lot for one person. 633 00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:53,880 Yeah. It really has. 634 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,520 It's amazing. I know I've, I've dealt with 635 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,760 that myself and my husband's amazing. 636 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,640 But sometimes he thinks he can meet every need as much as he 637 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,280 wants to. And I'm like, honey, that's the 638 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:05,560 sub in you. That's it. 639 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:13,040 Your little sub, you know, But you know, I love the BDSM 640 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,080 lifestyle. I really love it. 641 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,080 And it is, it is. I could not be without it. 642 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,640 You know, a lot of people, they, we have this little thing within 643 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,760 the community will say, you know, are you purging more or 644 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,360 less? Like, are you getting rid of all 645 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,240 your things and throwing BDSM away? 646 00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:32,680 And a lot of people, you know, they do that. 647 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,040 Whether it's, you know, crossdressers, whether it's 648 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,600 just, you know, people who are active participants, whether 649 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,840 it's, you know, Dom Subs, doesn't matter. 650 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,320 There's a point where someone has to give it up for some 651 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,360 reason, whether it's, you know, their own personal guilt or 652 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,080 relationships and they get something, get into something 653 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,560 new and they just their partner doesn't want anything to do with 654 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,760 it. That happened to me years ago. 655 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,200 But but a lot of people, they'll say, you know, I got to, you 656 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,800 know, purge my things and, you know, they'll get online and 657 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,240 they'll, you know, sell their stuff. 658 00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:08,160 And it's just, it's sad to see because they always come back. 659 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,680 Because in actuality, it's so cathartic in your life that when 660 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,480 you find your peace with it, you'll never leave. 661 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,240 Yeah. So you said this happened to you 662 00:38:16,240 --> 00:38:17,400 a few years ago? What? 663 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,760 This happened years ago when I was first married. 664 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,880 I college, high school. I knew when I was 13 years old 665 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:26,720 that I wanted to be a dominatrix. 666 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,600 And, you know, I went to school, went to college, just kind of 667 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,560 pushed it down. And then I started, you know, 668 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:37,520 pimping out my boyfriend and, you know, created my own 669 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,640 dungeon, you know, in my early 20s and, and started seeing 670 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,880 clients years ago. But when I got married, he was 671 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:49,480 very vanilla. And we, we kind of met on other 672 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:54,080 levels outside of BDSM. And, you know, I, I started a 673 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:58,280 family business and I started, I continued on with my, with my 674 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,160 degree. And, you know, you just kind of 675 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,600 brushed it aside and I thought, well, maybe I could live without 676 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,360 it. And, you know, I went without 677 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:06,920 BDSM for, you know, six years too long. 678 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,360 So it happens. But I get a lot of 679 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,960 crossdressers. They'll come and they'll bring 680 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,800 me all of their belongings because they don't, they don't 681 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,000 want to deal with it anymore. Or they'll get in a relationship 682 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:18,680 and they're like, she's not going to understand. 683 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:22,240 I got to purge all my stuff, you know, it's, it's just sad to 684 00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:26,960 see, you know, yeah, I had this guy and, and he's a rubberist, 685 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,200 you know, and he, he brought me his latex back bed. 686 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,200 He brought me all of his rubber and, you know, latex gear and 687 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,040 all his stuff. And he had hormones he was 688 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,640 taking. And, you know, it's like, I'm 689 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,440 like, well, I'm not going to take your hormones, but I'll 690 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,640 take everything. So it, it's just funny, but it's 691 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,080 sad at the same time. But but yeah, I. 692 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,480 Feel like that could be a study all all in itself, you know? 693 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,680 Like, yeah, it really could. It can be one of my very good 694 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,720 friends. She wrote her thesis on her 695 00:39:54,720 --> 00:39:58,640 crossdresser husband. They have an open relationship. 696 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,400 He has no desire really to be with other women. 697 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,960 But, you know, I think he would. I think he crosses into, you 698 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,280 know, bisexuality. He's just not, you know, 699 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:09,920 obviously telling everyone about. 700 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:14,280 He's very secretive. But even even then, you know, I 701 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,400 keep bringing up crossdressers, but but you know. 702 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:24,240 It's it's like it's just that one part of BDSM where when 703 00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:27,600 they're true to themselves, being a crossdresser, they don't 704 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,280 like to age. And when they start to age and 705 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,840 their looks start to fade and they could no longer be pretty, 706 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,360 that's when it's kind of like it's done. 707 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:36,760 It's sad. It's sad. 708 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:39,280 Yeah. I don't know. 709 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,880 I just kind of see different things about different people in 710 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,560 the kink community. I think, you know, it's our 711 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,480 biggest thing to and you know, I try to be an advocate for 712 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,880 people, but you know, being a Dom, I never try to dominate 713 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,680 over anyone. It has to be, you know, I have 714 00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,040 to talk to them, I have to know them, I have to gauge with them. 715 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:04,280 And a lot of people, they really have this misconstrued idea that 716 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,160 just because they're a Dom, they can be dominant over everyone 717 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,760 and kind of be disrespectful. And so a lot of submissives, 718 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:16,120 they go through a lot of really kind of personal attacks from 719 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:20,160 people in the community that that really kind of mistreat 720 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,040 them, you know, and take advantage of them. 721 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,480 So a lot of me sub females go through it and it's, it's much 722 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,720 more difficult for them to actually find a partner because 723 00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:31,920 a lot of times they'll just find overpowering dominant male who, 724 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,640 you know, takes advantage. It's it's a sad situation. 725 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,440 But. Anywho, I, I, I'm really going 726 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,280 to enjoy your book and I'm going to share it with other people 727 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,040 and, and pass on to to everyone because like, we're in 190 728 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:46,400 countries, so they need to buy the book. 729 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,720 Bound by BDSM, unexpected lessons for building a happier 730 00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:54,160 life, and Alicia Ariel again. It's been a pleasure. 731 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:56,200 Thanks for. Having us, Yeah. 732 00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,640 Thank you so much. And if you want to be in contact 733 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,800 with Oberon, I'll certainly pass along his info so you can reach 734 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,400 out to him. He's a wonderful man. 735 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:04,800 He sounds like it. Yes. 736 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:10,360 So until then, I will say this has been the latest episode of 737 00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:11,720 Call Me a Mistress.