Hi, welcome to the latest episode.
Call Me Mistress. I'm your Hostess, Mistress Mia,
and today I bring you a special guest, one from Maryland, one
from Missouri, The Show me state.
And you're getting ready to show us so much with your book.
I bring you Alicia Walker and Arielle Kuperberg.
So ladies, welcome to the show. Thanks for having us.
Absolutely. I know we tried this before, so
we're going to give it a whirl. But you all wrote this wonderful
book bound by BDSM, unexpected lessons for building a happier
life. And I, I love this book.
Myself and Edie Boleyn, we both read it and she is of one of the
Doms in the dungeon. She is very insightful, very
intellectual about the psychology behind BDSM.
And so we really have extensive conversations about it, but you
know, it's great. And like I said, we really
enjoyed the book and we were talking a lot specifically about
the different topics that you've brought up that really isn't
covered in a lot of BDSM, you know, literature quite
truthfully. So that's why I was kind of a
refreshing to read yours. And I was like, oh, this is
great. You know, you lay it out so
easily for people to really comprehend so.
Thank you. Yeah, I loved it.
So, Ariel, would you tell us how how you all started this?
How did you all meet? We met probably over 10 years
ago at this point on a Facebook group, actually for academic
mothers. And there was a long
introductory thread and everyone was kind of like introducing
themselves and saying what they did research on.
And Alicia introduced herself and I think she mentioned she
had just done a study on women who had affairs with other
women. But I identified as straight and
I had been working on a study that was on college students who
said they were straight but who had hooked up with same sex
partners. And I was kind of stuck on the
project. And I was like, hey, we should
work together and you should help me actually finish writing
this paper. And since then we became like
really good friends. We started off chatting on
Facebook and having, we still chat probably daily on Facebook
and now we've met, you know, several times over the years now
at conferences and stuff. But that was, I think we
originally had this kind of shared interest in sexuality
topics. And yeah, we've been
collaborating ever since then. That's wonderful.
And so you all came about to discover how you were going to
write this book. So, Alicia, how did you start
that? I had about 6 different students
independent of each other just approach me after class and say
hey have you ever thought about studying BDSM?
In the first like 3 or so I said, no, I, I haven't really
thought about it. And by the 4th 1 I started
thinking maybe I should start thinking about it.
And so I approached Arielle because I love working with her.
And I said, hey, you know, what if we did this project and she
was game. So we, we designed a survey and
interview protocol and we launched the study and Arielle
came up with this great idea to post invitations to participate
in Reddit, sub subgroups, subreddits and got a lot of
folks that way. And then we had a large group of
undergraduate researchers who were helping helping us.
And a lot of them were actually in the BESM community, which was
really helpful. And they helped kind of inform
the questions. And they were on Fetlife.
And so we got permission from Fetlife and put a call out there
as well. And pretty soon we had a really
large sample. This is actually the largest
study on BDSM to date. We had 96 completed interviews
and like 20 more than 2400 survey bugs that.
That's right. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I remember you saying it was almost 2500 people that you
did this survey and and you asked them several obviously
extensive questions. What kind of stuck out to you
when you were writing this, this survey?
What were you thinking? Like God, what are people really
into? Yeah, I think part of it was
finding out what are people into like when people say they're
BDSM practitioner, what does that actually mean in the like,
what have they actually done? What do they typically do?
So, yeah, I think as I said, I'm interested in like kind of
hidden sexual behavior too. So that's just like, you know,
tell me the numbers, like, how often are people doing these
types of things? But we also asked a lot about
community benefits they had gotten from the BDSM community.
That was something I was interested in having had some
like, different encounters with the BDSM community.
So in some ways, like I grew up in a very religious community
and there were some aspects of the BDSM community that you
wouldn't think they'd have anything in common, but I think
they do just that like sense of community and all these kind of
like non sexual benefits that people are getting from it.
So yeah, we had a lot of questions on that.
We had questions on like how many friends do you have who are
into BDSM and, you know, life and their attitudes, all sorts
of different questions. Yeah, that's, that's incredible.
I know you all had talked about in your book specifically you
said that you were losing community and you had to, you
said specifically you put in what you get back in the BDSM
community. So I thought, you know, it's
entirely true. I I try to explain to people in
our area, we don't have the really the best community.
I find that there's a lot of cliques and it's really strange.
I find it really strange because parts of them kind of frown upon
crossdressers and then I don't know it.
It's just, I want it to be a non judgmental group, but it
sometimes people, I don't know if it's, I don't know, maybe if
it's just the lack of education with people I don't know.
But that's just been my experiences.
I think every community has some like inherent problems and
disagreements and like, you know, things that people feel
really passionate about that people outside the community
would have like no idea what they're talking about.
But yeah, I think there's also, I don't know, for me, I moved
last year, I moved states after living in the same place for 15
years. And like, as I was writing this
book, thinking about like, how do people form communities?
How do people find that sense of connection?
And I think that's something a lot of people are kind of
thinking about these days as if you've read, people have talked
about there's no, you know, people don't have community.
They all stay home. They're on their like Facebook
all or, you know, not Facebook whatever young people do.
Like that's the one. Yeah.
Like the, you know, they're all on their computer all day and
like not interacting with people.
And I think people want more of a sense of community.
And it's it was interesting to see like there's this whole
build up community with all these rules and kind of social
ideas about how you should do things.
But it also that kind of leads BDSM partitioners to have this
built in community that gives them all these benefits that
they could kind of like step into very easily.
OK, now Alicia, in the book you all mentioned that a lot of
people say that when they get into the BDSM community, almost
feels like it's home to them. Yeah, that came up a lot in the
interviews. People talked about discovering
BDSM and like finally feeling like they could fully be
themselves and they were fully accepted and they found people
like them and that it was very much like coming home.
And you know, what a wonderful gift that is.
How many people never really find that for themselves?
You know, lots of folks just kind of wonder around sort of
like where is my place? Where exactly do I fit in?
And so I think that was just really powerful for folks to say
and really stuck with me as just not an unfortunately not an
experience that everyone has. Yeah, because I felt like when I
saw that that one part of a chapter where you talked about
freedom for society, expectations, and then it just
kind of rolled into the gender burdens that some people
experience it to me, it's resonated because I think about
the primary people that come to see me are cross dressers.
And, you know, I feel like so much of what they experience is
problematic in their life, that they can't be who they are, you
know, and we see that a lot of times too, with where it goes
from cross dressers. They'll start off as a cross
dresser, then they'll go into being a transgender person and
so forth and just kind of expand from there in their life.
But I don't know what else have you all?
Yeah. Go ahead.
You were going to say Ari? I was going to say, I think
there's a lot of areas and gender is definitely one of a
major one, especially right now. I feel like in this current
moment, but there are a lot of places in society where like
society expects you to behave one way and that may not be the
way that feels authentic to you. So I feel like when there's that
tension, like you want to find some place where you could.
I think last time when we had our like, failed attempt to
record this last week, you talked about like catharsis.
I think there's like catharsis to be able to like reconcile,
like and be accepted for parts of yourself that society is
like, don't do this, but you're like, but I really want to do
this. And then finding people who are
like, well, that's cool. You could do that and you could
like be yourself around us is, I think, very powerful.
It really is. It really is.
So Alicia, when you go into embracing vulnerabilities, when
you all were discussing this in your book, you were talking
about finding people and trusting certain people with
your secret. How were people gauging with
that? Like was it specifically they
would go on Fetlife? Would they try to find the
community like that? So it depended.
Some people found community by going to munches and play
parties, some people only had community online fetlife or
Reddit, or some people were even in BDSM Facebook groups.
So it depended on what access folks had because you may live
in a place where there isn't ABDSM community or maybe you
don't know that there is. So for example, I know that
there's a BDSM community here in Springfield's, but if I didn't
know that, I would not know that, you know, if you just like
ran a Google search or something, it would seem that
there isn't 1 at all. And so unless you stumble on to
someone who can kind of, you know, be a realtor into that
community, you, you wouldn't have one locally and you might
end up resorting to online, even though there is actually a
community available to you here. And, and I understand why the
local community isn't necessarily super visible
online. I can see where pit books would
feel like it's not a very safe place here to do that.
It's pretty conservative here, so you know, it's a delicate
line and a lot of places for folks to walk.
You know, how do we connect with like minded folks but also keep
ourselves safe? Yeah, that's interesting.
So Ariel, what has been your favorite part of the book that
you've spoken about and you've written about?
I I feel like my favorite part writing about was there was a
chapter just on like what is PDSN and what do people do?
And I like, there was a lot of like I knew a lot of it, but
there was even more stuff I hadn't heard of that I went and
researched on. And I don't know, just having
those numbers of like, how often do people do this?
How often are people doing that? And like, let's read all about
like Easton or whatever topic of the day I'm reading about.
I thought that was really interesting.
I thought I really like the chapter.
We also wrote on community and all the non BDSM communities
people were involved with. I did some of the analysis of
like we had a survey question of just like what other communities
are you a part of that also meet up in person regularly and
looking and trying to like sort them and figure out like how do
we categorize these? And so for instance, a lot of
people were into like what I would call like creativity, like
creating things or playing music or doing art projects or
exercise or role-playing was a big one, wearing costumes.
And then we we're kind of in that with like the BDSM
community incorporates all these different things that just
humans like to do in their free time.
But I thought it was really interesting to be like, what do
humans like to do in their free time?
And yeah, as I said, you know, moving last year and trying to
completely restart my social life in my mid 40s, I feel like
I got a lot of insights and kind of was able to use stuff from
the book to like, they're like, OK, you have to, like, show up
to the same place over and over again.
So I'm going to go do that and, like, make some friends.
And it actually worked. So yeah.
So as the personal question I have are, were you 2 actually
active before all of this at all in the BDSM community?
Like, did you go to a function to kind of explore things?
So I had had some encounters with the BDSM community when I
was younger. I would say my spouse is kind of
super vanilla. So I did end up married to
someone who's like crazy vanilla.
But when I was in my 20s, I dated a BDSM practitioner for a
little bit, and I had some friends who were active in the
BDSM community, and I went thanks toy shopping with some of
them. So I've had some encounters, but
we didn't, yeah, we didn't do as much like participant
observation as I feel like we could have.
We didn't, we didn't, we didn't have IRB approval for that.
That's the big thing. We were not approved to attend
anything like that. I did get some invitations from
folks that I interviewed and some very kind invitations that
I had to pass on because I did not have IRB approval for that.
And prior to initiating the study, no, I had never, I had
read about BDSM dungeons when I was in college, actually an
undergrad, but more as like professional, you know, like you
like folks that have a dungeon and that's like their profession
is to do that. So I, I was aware of it from
that, from that aspect. I don't even think I ever dated.
If I dated someone who was into BDSM, they didn't tell me they
were into BDSM. Doesn't mean I didn't obviously.
And yeah, I don't think I've ever been invited to any.
No, I don't think I've ever had any invitations whatsoever.
Maybe I haven't lived in the right place or I, I don't know.
But no, I've never ever been invited.
A cool thing, though, while I was interviewing folks is people
kept saying, well, I can just tell from interacting with you,
even over e-mail, that you have like a really dominant
personality. And I really like dominant
women. And I remember telling my mom I
was like, I'm very jealous. And I feel like if I weren't to
BDSM, it would solve a lot of things in my life because no one
in my regular life ever says, I really love that You're a
dominant woman so. That is too funny.
So I was going to say the reason why I asked that, because were
you all like it? Was it really a big shock to you
when you listen to some of these people talk about things and
answer your surveys? Was it more or less like, oh
really? I had like, I'm like, I have
been studying sex and teaching about sex for almost 20 years.
So I wouldn't say it was like anything super shocking for me
personally, but it was interesting.
I mean, I, yeah, I think I, I interview people about their sex
lives all the time. And I had interviewed people who
were BDSM participants for other studies that were not about
BDSM. So it had come up in other
interviews. So it wasn't really shocking
exactly. It was just interesting.
I think folks were it was like really important to people that
we understood that hey, we're your neighbors, we're your Co
workers, we're your friends, we're your family.
You know, we're not these like super strange people.
Like media wants to paint us. And people talked a lot about
like the stigma that they feel all the time, which made the
fact that every single person I interviewed was so happy all the
more surprising. You know, you're talking about,
oh, I'm a part of this like super stigmatized group and it
has to be like really secretive, but I'm like insanely happy.
You know, that really made that stick out.
I don't, I've never interviewed another group of folks for a
study where every single person I talked to was like really
happy. So that was to me, the more
surprising thing than any specific sexual practice or PDSM
practice that anybody talked to me about.
And that was that was the main premise of your book, was that
everyone that you engaged with in this this study was.
Happy. Yes, yes.
And I think, yeah. And, and it's funny because
since then I've collected data for a different study.
And there's been a lot of people in that study who also do BDSM
who've asked me about the book. And when I said, oh, yeah, you
know, it was like, really wild. Everybody was so happy.
They look at me like, why would that be?
I'm like, OK, if you're not in the BDSM community like that,
it's actually very unusual. And so, yeah, that became the
basis for the book because I kept saying to Ariel, like the
big thing that all these people have in common is that they're
like, really, really happy and like, what's going on?
Why are people, Cuz I've interviewed other people who are
sexually fulfilled. So I knew it wasn't just, oh,
they're sexually fulfilled, it's something else.
So yeah, for me that was that was way more surprising than any
particular. And people did go into, like,
great detail about the scenes that they participated in, the
practices they were into. But yeah, the how happy everyone
was the most shocking thing, yeah.
And do you think maybe just the reason is that they can actually
gauge with other people in a community and they can actually
be completely honest with what they want with other people
without judgement? Yeah, I think it's the
authenticity, it's the level of trust and communication and that
sense of community. And I've said this Ariel,
before, but I was jealous talking to folks.
You know, they're talking about like, I've got this group of 30
people that I have holidays with and, and game nights or
whatever. And, and, you know, I want to
throw myself a party for getting full professor and I don't have
30 people in the same town. I could advise something like
really jealous of y'all, you know, your network of folks.
I mean, I think that's impressive in general, but
especially in the world we live in right now, where loneliness
is, is in an epidemic and, and people are not as connected like
Arielle was saying earlier. Yeah.
I think so. No, no, no.
Go right ahead. Go ahead.
Oh, I was going to add, I think yeah, it's.
I mean, the premise of the book ended up being like, what is it
about BDSM that makes people so happy?
And there's community, there's the ability to be authentic, the
ability to kind of break these strict norms about gender and
how we're supposed to be. But there's also, like, it
allows you to exercise your creativity, which I think is
something that, like, humans are happier when they can be
creative. Humans are happier when they can
like connect with other people. And it just kind of incorporates
all these different things into it that it's kind of like, we
call it like a blueprint, Like there's like here, just like
live your life this way. And it incorporates all these
different things about life that like, makes people happy in
general or usually makes typically makes people happy.
Right. Yeah.
So I think that's. Yeah.
That did end up becoming the book is like, what is it Like, I
remember we were talking at one point, Alicia was like, I don't
know what the story of this book is.
Like, I don't have anything except that they're really,
really happy. And I'm like, well, maybe maybe
that's. And that did end up being the
story. It's like, what is it that makes
humans happy? And what is it that BDSM kind of
has built into it? But like, sexual pleasure is
also part of it too, I think. But yeah, I think the the
ability to like live authentically and talk to people
and be your like true authentic self and have that community is
also really important parts of it.
You know, I, I throw lifestyle parties probably 7 to 10 times a
year. And when I host these parties, I
always get like vendors that will come that are in the
lifestyle and I will get, you know, entertainers that are part
of the lifestyle. Anyone that is kind of, you
know, under that umbrella of BDSM, I try to bring them
together. And I have gotten people that
have just come from all over the states for some of these events.
And I, it's flattering. It really is.
It's just, to me, it's just an incredible thing that people can
really just come together without judgement.
And like you said it, it really is so fulfilling for them that
they can express who they are. I said, you know, it's very sex
positive and people are just kind of like they're kind of
awestruck at 1st and just kind of dumbfounded because it's like
really, we can, we can do that here, you know, But we, we leave
the dungeon open and, and people just come and they just enjoy
every aspect of different things of the, of the party, whether
it's, you know, the drag show or the fire show or the, the, the
vendors, you know, selling paddles and whips and, and
seeing scenes. And we'll do like demos, you
know, rope demos and, and that kind of thing.
So it, it really is, it's so much fun.
And like you said, we're in this time where it's like we have to
be guarded and, and we're lonely at times.
And when people, you know, they don't have anyone to reach out
and really express themselves, it's just a sad thing.
So it's just a great thing that we can all be together and, you
know, experience the joys of, you know, human sexuality, you
know, without, without so many limitations, you know, But
Ariel, you said that you, you taught, you've been teaching
about sexuality, obviously for 20 years about this and, and the
kinks and everything else. Now, did you all watch the show
Bonded? I did not.
OK, Well, I think when Alicia mentioned that, a lot of her
students were asking about, you know, writing about BDSM.
So there is a character, it's a show on Netflix and it's just a
a funny little drama, but it it's wait, I.
Have I have seen some of this? I think I've seen a few
episodes. Anyway, yeah, sorry I didn't
recognize the the title, but yeah, yeah, I did see a.
Little bit of it. So just in case the listeners
don't know. So it's she was a psych major,
she goes she's studying psychology and she's a college
student, but at the same time she's a professional dominatrix
and she doesn't necessarily work at a specific dungeon of her
own. I think she has like she goes to
rented space dungeon, but then she'll do a lot of outcall and
everything else. But she kind of talks about,
well, not really talks about, but a lot of the episodes are
about different genres. And it's just, it's the funniest
thing. It really is.
And it's, it's funny because after me doing this for 30
years, I always think like, is there really something else that
I don't know about? But I, you know, but I'm getting
ready to interview this gentleman.
And he's been a client and I interviewed him quite some time
ago and he was a little shy kind of about putting himself out
there. But he's, he's an absolute doll.
He's such a sweetheart. But his kink and I never
experienced this before was the rubber balls.
They're, they're those rubber bouncy balls and they make them
adult size. But what's interesting is a lot
of them, they actually have insertable like penis inserts,
like vaginal type inserts in the structure of these bouncy balls.
And so one of my associates who's in the dungeon with me,
Liv, she she's a doll. But he's like, yeah, Madam Liv,
I just want to go out by the pool and I want you to bounce on
the bouncy ball for me. So here she is in her bikini,
and she's like, this is the easiest session I've ever done.
So, you know, in just, in just in your studies and you all
being professors, obviously it's like, do you think everyone has
a kink? I don't know if everyone has
something that rises to the level of kink, but I think
everyone has a little something, you know, like I have a hand
thing, you know, like how somebody's hands look could be
like a big turn on or turn off, you know, like like it would, it
would be challenging for me to be really attracted to someone
that I thought had not attractive hands, which is like
weird that I'm just a little strange side.
Is it like hands? Hands like vascular like hands?
Pretty hands. Men and women's hands, Yeah, no,
it's just a certain like and, and some of it maybe I think I
do not have attractive hands. So it could be something about
projection. I really don't even know like
where and as you would like the shape, like the shape of the
hands and and. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for
sure. So I think probably everyone has
something, maybe not doesn't rise to the level of kink, but
they have a little something. What do you think?
Are you? She's like, I'm not telling you
about my hand fetish, but yeah. You.
Know, I think a lot of people, I mean, I'm not going to say like
100% of people have like a kink or something, but I think a lot
more than you would expect yeah. And I know what I do.
We haven't done like a kink survey.
Maybe I should do that. But I do like anonymous surveys
of my students sometimes in class and like, I don't know, my
class is now like over 70% queer and I mean so.
Yeah, right. Yeah, no.
And whenever we talk about anything, I always have students
come up to talk to me after class and like, or even like
writing this book. So many people have come out to
me as BDSM practitioners. Just this weekend alone, I had
two different people come out to me at like, I went to a show and
ran into some people and they were like, oh, you just wrote a
book about BDSM. Like me and my late husband
lived in like a 24/7 like dominant submissive arrangement.
And I was like OK cool. Like I hope you told.
Them to buy the book, right? For most, that book are real.
Geez. No, but like a lot of people
since writing this book have like come out to me as BDSM
practitioners who I wouldn't. I mean, as I said, it's hard to
shock me, but it's like, it's not necessarily like the people
you would expect. Yeah, 'cause you, you think
they're going to look different, you know?
Yeah, you think they're? Going to be like goth and have a
lot. Of yeah.
Do something, but they're not like, they're just like typical
people. Well, you know, it's funny
because I've met swingers, you know, within the last 10-12
years and they said, well, you know, whenever 50 Shades of Grey
came out, that's when we really thought, oh, we could try to be
a swinger. We could try to go into that.
But growing up, I can remember the only BDSM movies, the story
of oh, which is to me is OK. And then the secretary, which to
me was a beautiful story. I love that, that movie.
That was that was the thing. It just like it always felt like
a bad stigma because I mean, they made her look crazy.
She was mental health and then then we had like 8mm with
Nicolas Cage in the 90s. It was like CD and made BDSM
just look like really dark. And so I think we just kind of
get stuck in our minds, like, but then Christian Grey came out
and Christian Grey is like, hot. Yeah, I feel like my first
encounters with BDSM was like Buffy the Vampire Slayer kind of
scenes and Stephen King books. Like there was Gerald's Game
where I don't know if you read that, but where he like,
handcuffs her to the bed and then dogs or something or yeah.
So yeah, I've read that in like middle school.
So that was like my first, yeah. I'm like, that was the first
time I really encountered BDSM. So there was like media stuff.
And yeah, that was probably like the early 90s that I first read
that. But yeah, there was some stuff,
but it was it was more like a joke or even today, like there
was an SNL Saturday Night Live episode recently where they had
Keenan Tom Thompson or Thomas or whatever his name is, the guy
who's been on forever talking about he's like doing only fans
and like sitting on a birthday cake.
But it was like a joke. Like the, yeah, like the, it's
usually shown as like the bad guy or like the, you know, the,
like the villain of the episode or the joke of the episode or
something like that. It's not shown in like a very
positive light. And I think 50 Shades, I
remember in 50 Shades of Grey, the book came out and I, I
remember someone reading it next to me on the train and I was
kind of like reading over their shoulder, like, what is this
book they're reading right next to me?
Now, see, when that came out, I remember I had a bunch of
students in my social sexuality class who were BDSM
practitioners who were raised in hell about 50 Shades and how
inaccurate it was and how much they hated it.
So I never ended up reading it. But have you seen the recent
Hulu show, The Dying for Sex show?
It's actually, yeah. It's actually based on a true
story about this woman who was on a quest to have an orgasm
with a partner before she dies of cancer.
It sounds really uplifting. It actually was though, in like
a weird way, but I think that was the most realistic portrayal
I think I've ever seen. Probably because it was based on
a true story. It's like an 8 episode limited
series kind of thing. Completely worth the time.
But yeah, it's not like making fun of it and not positioning
anybody as like a villain or anything like that.
So it really stands out because of what you're describing, which
I think is the norm, yeah. Yeah, 50 Shades of Grey.
It, there was this one scene at the very beginning, kind of like
already engaged with, you know, going out and seeing each other
and, you know, you took her to the infamous Red Room.
But he has her on the bed and he attaches A spreader bar to her
ankles and he flips her over and she's, you know, a hundred, 120
a 130 lbs. And I'm like, Oh my God, don't
do that. Gonna break her ankles.
You know, that's what I'm thinking in my mind.
But I mean, I know it wasn't accurate, but it just put it in
a sexy light for people. And that's what I, I try to keep
the positive with people on it. But I remember Exit to Eden,
that was another one. Rosie O'Donnell, Dan Aykroyd.
That was early what, early 90s, late 80s?
But great, funny movie. And again, it makes fun of BDSM.
So it's just like, come on, people.
Hollywood could do. Better Hollywood always likes
things that are, like, tawdry. And what's more tawdry than
alternative sex, right? Exactly, exactly.
But fun times it really is. It's interesting.
So do you all see a Part 2 to this to the book?
I think we're working on other projects now.
One of the things we're collecting data on now is
polyamory, so polyamorous relationships, and I think
that's going to be our next big book.
Other than we're also writing like a textbook about sex,
which, yeah, that's not really like a research study.
No, it's OK. It's all right.
Well, we have a lot of articles coming out though from this.
From this data, I could definitely see a project in the
future about female Doms. We did not.
I don't know about in the survey, but in the interviews I
think I only talked to maybe 8 of them.
So I could definitely see a future project that just focused
on female Doms. Yeah, we have a few other
articles we're working on getting out now.
One looks more into community participation and who benefits
the most from BDSM communities. We have one that's like floors
more about the masculinity and how men use BDSM to kind of
break these ideas about gender. So yeah, we have a few other
articles that are going to be more like scientific journal
type articles, not a whole book, but we definitely have.
I feel like we have like 5 in progress and I can't even keep
track of them anymore. It's a lot of data.
So, well, let me tell you. So if you're doing your research
on the polyamory topic here, the actual person who coined the
term was Morning Glory. You know this, right?
And I just happened to have Oberon Zell's private phone
number. And but he was married to
Morning Glory and they actually had a, a commune of people
together. And he is a brilliant, brilliant
man. I did an interview with him a
few years ago. I was actually going to do
another interview with him. I think he kind of likes me and
I kind of like him. But he's brilliant.
He has, he has his doctorate in psychology.
He has written, Oh my goodness, probably 1212 to 20 books.
I mean, it's, it's incredible. They have, they have a lot of
merch of him because he's, you know, this, he looks like a
wizard. He's just a cool old sexy man,
you know? He's.
Great, he's great, but and his late wife sounded like just an
absolute sweetheart. And you know, he was talking
about the concept of being Polly and how you know when you are in
a relationship, how not everyone in your in your relationship
within you know, two people can can meet all of your needs.
And at the time, I was kind of like, come on, This is why you
marry your spouse. You know, they got to meet every
need. Come on, you know, and you don't
want to think that. But then when you talk to him
more about it, he was just, it's very enlightening.
He's a very enlightened man. He's he's really, he's
incredible. Oberyn is a wonderful man.
I think Alicia has actually written a little bit about that
because she wrote a couple of books on infidelity, so non
consensual, non monogamy. And that was something she
talked about. I remember reading in one of
your books, Alicia, about how we put all this stuff on an
individual marriage to like meet every single one of your needs
and they're supposed to be your best friend and everything else
in your whole life. And it's a lot for one person.
Yeah. It really has.
It's amazing. I know I've, I've dealt with
that myself and my husband's amazing.
But sometimes he thinks he can meet every need as much as he
wants to. And I'm like, honey, that's the
sub in you. That's it.
Your little sub, you know, But you know, I love the BDSM
lifestyle. I really love it.
And it is, it is. I could not be without it.
You know, a lot of people, they, we have this little thing within
the community will say, you know, are you purging more or
less? Like, are you getting rid of all
your things and throwing BDSM away?
And a lot of people, you know, they do that.
Whether it's, you know, crossdressers, whether it's
just, you know, people who are active participants, whether
it's, you know, Dom Subs, doesn't matter.
There's a point where someone has to give it up for some
reason, whether it's, you know, their own personal guilt or
relationships and they get something, get into something
new and they just their partner doesn't want anything to do with
it. That happened to me years ago.
But but a lot of people, they'll say, you know, I got to, you
know, purge my things and, you know, they'll get online and
they'll, you know, sell their stuff.
And it's just, it's sad to see because they always come back.
Because in actuality, it's so cathartic in your life that when
you find your peace with it, you'll never leave.
Yeah. So you said this happened to you
a few years ago? What?
This happened years ago when I was first married.
I college, high school. I knew when I was 13 years old
that I wanted to be a dominatrix.
And, you know, I went to school, went to college, just kind of
pushed it down. And then I started, you know,
pimping out my boyfriend and, you know, created my own
dungeon, you know, in my early 20s and, and started seeing
clients years ago. But when I got married, he was
very vanilla. And we, we kind of met on other
levels outside of BDSM. And, you know, I, I started a
family business and I started, I continued on with my, with my
degree. And, you know, you just kind of
brushed it aside and I thought, well, maybe I could live without
it. And, you know, I went without
BDSM for, you know, six years too long.
So it happens. But I get a lot of
crossdressers. They'll come and they'll bring
me all of their belongings because they don't, they don't
want to deal with it anymore. Or they'll get in a relationship
and they're like, she's not going to understand.
I got to purge all my stuff, you know, it's, it's just sad to
see, you know, yeah, I had this guy and, and he's a rubberist,
you know, and he, he brought me his latex back bed.
He brought me all of his rubber and, you know, latex gear and
all his stuff. And he had hormones he was
taking. And, you know, it's like, I'm
like, well, I'm not going to take your hormones, but I'll
take everything. So it, it's just funny, but it's
sad at the same time. But but yeah, I.
Feel like that could be a study all all in itself, you know?
Like, yeah, it really could. It can be one of my very good
friends. She wrote her thesis on her
crossdresser husband. They have an open relationship.
He has no desire really to be with other women.
But, you know, I think he would. I think he crosses into, you
know, bisexuality. He's just not, you know,
obviously telling everyone about.
He's very secretive. But even even then, you know, I
keep bringing up crossdressers, but but you know.
It's it's like it's just that one part of BDSM where when
they're true to themselves, being a crossdresser, they don't
like to age. And when they start to age and
their looks start to fade and they could no longer be pretty,
that's when it's kind of like it's done.
It's sad. It's sad.
Yeah. I don't know.
I just kind of see different things about different people in
the kink community. I think, you know, it's our
biggest thing to and you know, I try to be an advocate for
people, but you know, being a Dom, I never try to dominate
over anyone. It has to be, you know, I have
to talk to them, I have to know them, I have to gauge with them.
And a lot of people, they really have this misconstrued idea that
just because they're a Dom, they can be dominant over everyone
and kind of be disrespectful. And so a lot of submissives,
they go through a lot of really kind of personal attacks from
people in the community that that really kind of mistreat
them, you know, and take advantage of them.
So a lot of me sub females go through it and it's, it's much
more difficult for them to actually find a partner because
a lot of times they'll just find overpowering dominant male who,
you know, takes advantage. It's it's a sad situation.
But. Anywho, I, I, I'm really going
to enjoy your book and I'm going to share it with other people
and, and pass on to to everyone because like, we're in 190
countries, so they need to buy the book.
Bound by BDSM, unexpected lessons for building a happier
life, and Alicia Ariel again. It's been a pleasure.
Thanks for. Having us, Yeah.
Thank you so much. And if you want to be in contact
with Oberon, I'll certainly pass along his info so you can reach
out to him. He's a wonderful man.
He sounds like it. Yes.
So until then, I will say this has been the latest episode of
Call Me a Mistress.