Our thing was James would drop me off, be my Uber and then pick
me up. And then when he picked me up in
the car, I was still like numb from the amazing sex I had and I
just couldn't open up, you know, I just, I couldn't talk about
it. So he thought I was holding
back. But what it was was I was just
trying to process what happened. And then we get to start
watching the videos and he sees how the passion and the
chemistry and he's like, Oh my God, like I can't watch this.
Hey everybody, I just wanted to give you a quick notice.
I am starting to offer a one-on-one coaching session.
It's called ask Crystal. It is coaching for individuals
and couples as they explore ethical non monogamy, whatever
your dynamic is. I've been living in this dynamic
for 10 years and I've learned a ton.
And I hope to share some of that wisdom with you in the hopes
that it will help you. So you'll get the details in the
show notes and I hope to see you there.
Hello Crystal Well Chair, I am super excited to introduce a
friend of mine. We actually met at a lifestyle
event a year or two ago and she just is such a super quality
person. So I would like to introduce
cuckoldress Anne and also her He's not going to be talking
with us today, but her, her lovely husband.
He, he's a incredible gentleman too.
James and so welcome Anne. I'm so glad you're here.
Thanks. I'm thrilled to be here, so
appreciate it. It's been a while since I've
been on a podcast so, but was really looking forward to this.
Yeah. And I, you know, one of the
things that I learned at this I, I don't go to lifestyle parties
as a rule, but it was such a glorious one.
And we met so many great cut couples.
It was the high point of the whole weekend for me and I
think. I mean, I would have to agree.
And it's, you know, one of the sad things about it is that you
don't do that every weekend or at least once a month or
something like that, you know, and, and so it's great to be
able to reconnect with you and, and carry on and see what's new
and what's changed and things like that.
So anyway, I'm really glad you're here.
Anne also has a very good blog and I'll have our producer put
her blog link into the show notes so that you can, you can
read some of her writing 'cause it's, it's very, very good, very
genuine and really gives you an insight into, you know, they're
thinking her and her husband as a cuckold couple.
So one of the things, one of the topics that the last article
that I read, the last blog post that I read was about cuck angst
and cuckoldrus angst. And that caught my attention.
And I wonder if you wouldn't describe from your understanding
what both of those are and then explain your experience having
cuckoldrus angst and where that comes from.
I think that would be very informative.
Well, on my, from my viewpoint and also learning through James
over these last what, 7 years where we've discovered, you
know, the term cuckolding. It's, it's when he he loves it,
but he hates it. You know, it's almost like an
emotional masochism. He wants to see me in this
passionate space with another man, especially at, you know, I
love tall black men who just have this bravado and he loves
it. But then he's also like, how
come I can't do that anymore? And so to me, that's the angst.
It's him. But he it's his jam.
As hard as it is, it's his jam. He wants that because he knows
that I'm getting what I want when he gets that.
But when I when he gets that way, he knows that I'm in a good
space, but it's hard for him to witness.
So it's one of those things. A long time ago I was on AI.
Don't know if I was on a podcast with Venus.
And it's just like, guys, be careful what you wish for.
This is not an easy an easy path.
You know, you say you want this. Oh, it's gonna be hot.
I'm gonna see my wife fucking. Well, we started out in the
swinging space and we've always been adventurous, trying new
things. And I think the so him watching
me have sex or seeing a Dick go into my pussy, that's nothing.
I mean, that's, that's, that's porn.
You know, he, he's seen that what he likes to see is the, as
he says, the forest, not the trees.
And that's what drives. Him wild.
And he can be Moody. He's an intense guy.
He's a deep thinker and will overthink it and will think
himself into doubt. But on the other, it's, you
know, they'll say they want it, they love it, and they hate.
It but he sounds so much like bitchard.
That's the same thing very intense, very intellectual and
intensely loves this. I think he's kind of gotten over
his cock angst in in that way. I mean, he's just into the pure
joy of it now. But it's that thing that you
just alluded to, the watching. To me, that's what Compersion is
watching the person he loves most in the world in pure
passion and pure joy and just the energy of it, you know,
because I don't care who you are after you've been married a long
time, you can't sustain that intensity.
And I think that's a lot of what draws people into some form of
consensual non monogamy or just cheating because it's like that
new relationship energy and it's beautiful to watch.
But I think, you know, James's experience is probably much more
common than than not because you love it and you hate it.
You know, you love to see her excited and and it's a little
worrisome to you. So that's the thing that you
juggle. Right.
And years ago I had my by curiosity came out and I'm like,
you know, I wonder what it would be like to be with a woman.
I was probably like late 30s, early 40s.
And he's like, you should just try.
This is how we were. Go for it.
Try it. You don't know unless you.
Probably you don't know and. So, you know, this was when you
put ads in like the underground papers, you know, there wasn't
the Internet searches and we at the time.
And so I looked for lots of different women.
But then I went, there was a lesbian bar not far from her
house. And it we're in a, you know,
pretty good area and it was in a safe location.
And I started going there on Friday nights after the kids
went to bed, he'd watch them. And I ended up meeting a woman
and we were in love and we had a really intense relationship for
about two years where she went on vacation with us.
The kids just knew her, you know, as Debbie.
And that was James first experience with angst because he
saw this and I think he felt. It wasn't just a sexual thing.
Yeah, it wasn't just sexual. It was a real involvement,
right? And she was not bisexual and so
when she stayed over it was James me in the middle and her.
But there was never any. She had no no interest in a man.
So there was never any 3 way or threesome like any scene
swinging. So that was our first, you know,
when we discovered the term cuckolding, thinking back and
kind of reading more, it's just like, aha, that was this was we
were doing this a long time. We just didn't know.
We didn't know, right? But that's, you know, but that's
also where you touch on compersion that where you get
beyond the angst and find joy in your partner's joy.
That's that's a very evolved concept and it's a very evolved
couple that can reach that. And so that was probably 20.
It was probably 20 years ago or so. 25.
I'm not gonna like, I'm not gonna give the real years ago.
But we have matured and grown together so much since that.
And then even since I wrote my last blog post, we have come a
long way, you know, emotionally together as a couple stronger.
So much easier to talk about things when things are either
pester, you know, pestering, or you really wanna talk about
these emotions you're feeling with these other men that you
engage with so. Right, right.
Yeah. Powerful, powerful stuff.
This is the stuff I think that's worth writing and talking about
because everybody gets off on the salacious aspects of any
kind of sex stuff. But when you get into the real
inner workings of this dynamic and you see how it plays out in
a real couple's life and how profoundly intimate these
conversations are because you're you're going way deep.
And that's just not a place that every couple goes to or can go
to. And so well, I've said for a
long time, I think cuckold men are an are a higher life form.
They're just more evolved. They, they have had to master
themselves. They've had to master their own
insecurities and their own oh, proprietary sense that they had
might have had ever over a woman.
And I, I just think it puts them on a higher platform.
And so I'm, I'm so glad to hear your story.
You know, I, I didn't know that about you.
And it compels me to share that I had one of those experiences
too. It was before I met Rich.
It was in, you know, when I was single and I met a woman at a
business meeting. And Long story short, she came
over and it was on and we stayed together for about a year.
But it was real love. It was real love.
I mean, it was women are completely different than men.
I'm just so glad that I had the experience because it rounded me
out in a way, and I haven't pursued that since.
But I don't regret having had it at all.
At all. Well, and I think finding those
real, those real connections in this lifestyle, whatever it's
with a man or a woman is so rare.
You know, you, if you started out swinging, you go to what we
got tired of. It just seems so superficial.
Like, we have met some fantastic friends, you know, that we don't
have sex with, but, you know, some of our best friends we've
met through that. But, you know, you meet someone
at a party. Like, I'll never forget this.
It was, you know, not that far, probably 10 years or so.
And there was a woman. And I don't try not to drink too
much when I go to these things 'cause I like to keep my wits
about me. And I just don't think I'm a
pretty drunk, you know? So I mean, who is I get?
Slop, I get sloppy, I pass out, you know, that sort of thing.
So anyway, I met this woman and we started getting it on and it
was so hot and I'm like, wow, maybe I found someone else I can
engage with because the physical chemistry was just so on.
And then her and her husband hosted an event, a party at
their house. I don't know, a year later or
maybe like six months later and she didn't want, she didn't even
acknowledge what, you know, that those the moment that we had
together and that was it frustrating to me.
You know, it's like, come on, like what's what are you afraid
of? That was so hot.
Like were you, were you performing or I it seemed so
intense. And I think some people just
don't they're afraid to go a little bit further.
I wasn't gonna, I wasn't insisting on a relationship,
but. Yeah, but but to pursue, pursue
that to where it could have gone.
And I think that does happen with people.
The intensity of something that's outside of their normal 9
dots scares them. It scares them.
And they, and they're, you know, they're afraid that maybe they
might get carried away or, you know, something will interfere
with the equilibrium of their life.
And so I think I, I think that's probably pretty common too,
especially when people are exploring by things.
I I think that's especially true.
Yeah, but I even, well, that's a whole other subject.
But even in as we, you and I look for the black gentleman
that turn us on, it's less like some of them are so superficial.
Someone said, oh, they're hunters.
They just kind of go from one to another and yeah, they're afraid
of getting, you know, too emotionally attached.
And that is, I mean, and I don't wanna force a narrative, but
when you can't just create and make a sustainable connection,
friendship, like right, why? Why does it have to be so hard?
So. Yeah, and it's we can all guess
at why so many black men do that.
I'm sure white men do that too, but I don't do white men.
So I, I don't have any frame or reference there, but I think it
is, you know, for, for many of them, it is a numbers game.
They don't want to get too, they don't want to fuel anybody's
expectations that they're going to be around longer than maybe
they intend to be. And it's really frustrating.
So I know I've heard, I think you and I have touched on this
topic before, but it brings me to my next question of I know
you've mentioned a time or two. I think you mentioned in that,
that blog post that I read that, you know, in an ideal world, you
and James would find sort of like a permanent third where it
would be a regular permanent, you know, partner that you could
make a real relationship with. Is that still something that
you're interested in, you know? We've evolved since then.
I think I have discovered that I have a slut slutty side and I do
like variety and though having a non like, if you will, a slutty
boyfriend who's, you know, there's non monogamy, but we
have a deeper connection. You know, that's kind of what
I'm seeking now. I'm at one point, you know,
we're like, oh, maybe we have someone and he moves in, but
then it's like, well, the reality of it and then are you
gonna limit your sexual freedom if you have someone move in?
You know what, in a fantasy world, it seems great, but you
know, all the cards would have to just everything.
The everything would just have to play out perfectly when you
talk about the reality of all that, right?
And not just the sex part, the just just the.
Realities of day-to-day living, yeah.
How how would all that work? Yeah.
And you know, I've got like 22 married adult children.
Like how is all that gonna interface and how much
explaining? But but also just to have more
fun. I like, you know, meeting men,
what I like to have. And I have probably three or
four men here that I really enjoy.
But everybody is so busy. If I could find someone who
lived close and wasn't afraid of an emotional attachment and we
could, you know, get together every once a month, that would
be ideal. Knowing that we're both safe and
we're both exploring other things.
Yeah. I don't know if I'm explaining
myself, I but we don't. We've really come a long way.
Having someone like just move in just isn't something that does
anything for me anymore. And maybe, and I'm not to say
that will never happen, but yeah.
And we've sort of evolved the other way.
I think part of my wanting of a permanent move in 3rd is the
sheer frustration of all the fakes and flakes that we've run
into. I mean, we're in a, we're in a
diversity wasteland in Portland and it's so hard.
So everybody's out of state and the, and the difficulty of
navigating all that. So we've talked about it for a
long time. We, we would love to have a
third that we could get really involved with and he would sort
of be the black head of household.
And how would that look on on a day-to-day basis?
And you know, same thing. How would we explain this to our
neighbors and our and you know, our my kid.
Well, I would say never say never.
You know, I don't. I'm somebody who isn't gonna say
that's not gonna happen. But it's not at such a driving
force anymore only because the reality of it, if I don't think
I want someone in here like head of house, you know, the black
male, the black head of house. But as I'm saying that today, I
could change my mind next month. You know, it just depends on the
dynamic of the relationship that you established with this
person. And you know, everything
develops over time and grows. But I did have one, I have one
lover A in my blog, He somebody I've known for, I don't know, 15
years. And there was a point where his
office, he moved jobs and his, his office was literally like
less than a mile from here, my house.
And I remember when that happened, I took him out for
lunch and I'm like, you know, would you be my bull like I
need? And he's like, sure.
But he would come over, you know, in his lunch hour during
the day several times a week. But it got to be boring.
I mean, it just got to be kind of boring because.
Sort of routine. Yeah, I was always in my room
like so much for the marital bed was just not very exciting.
At some point, you know, it's just like, OK, well, we need a
change of scenery. But see he was married and so he
would only married with a hall pass.
So supposedly I've never and it it got old, but I think if you
found the right person and you could do a lot with and you
could travel with, I think that'd be great.
So. Bichard and I are both very
intense and we have a real we both share a a pretty high
intellectual level of what what interests us.
We're interested in really delving into intimacy.
What is it? How do you build it?
What does it take? Not just the physical stuff,
it's like, how do you really get inside someone's soul and be
comfortable delving it? Because that is just limitless.
That is just limitless. And I think that's where we
that's where we found the most excitement with each other is
like really dive in deep. Dive in deep.
And what would you say in this, in this current phase of your
life? It sounds like you you need some
variety and how are you finding the people that you're
connecting with? You know, when I say variety,
it's only because the people that I connect with seem to be
single or married, have kids, work, you know, are
professionals and just don't have a lot of time.
So right now I think it's impossible to, I haven't had
luck finding, you know, a single person.
That's why I decided not to get so hung up on that.
But I have met, you know, a couple of people on lifestyle
Lounge and then Lifestyle Lounge and it's kind of like phased out
and we're on SDC. Haven't really met anyone.
I've met a few people there, but not locally.
I think a lot of like the guys that go to Splash and that Texas
SW are on SDC and then Midwest also and then Cassidy is kind of
the newest lifestyle site. I haven't we created tried to
create a Fetlife a long time ago because we were kind of we had
some good friends swinging that we met through swinging who are
really into BDSM and they're like, oh, you need to be on
Fetlife. But at the time we didn't
locally, we didn't see anything that really got us excited.
So I need to get back on to felt life and see if I can find men
who don't come through the swinger space.
Sometimes I think when you meet men that come through the
swinger space, they're they don't always appreciate the
cuckold dynamic. You know they say they do, but
they don't. They don't understand it, they
don't understand it and then they're likely to judge it as
well. So it's it's more difficult.
Right. And and then I've met people
through like word of mouth or this friend in LA, it's like, I
want you to meet. I would really love for you to
meet, you know, this person. And so that it's worked out that
way too. But for the most part, the
gentleman I've had, I met, I met somebody through black to white
of all places. But again, he's really fun, but
he's probably 40 minutes away and he's a single dad raising a
child on his own. So going back and so it's but
most mainly it's been the swing sites 'cause that's just what we
were comfortable with. And at one point James was in
charge and now he's, he doesn't do any of it.
I'm all I'm in charge. He doesn't do any like vetting
or pre screening. There wouldn't be a whole lot to
screen anyway. It's not like, you know, you put
a search in for the, you know, the black gentleman in Phoenix
And I've, I've met them all, you know?
That's that's me too. Portland there's.
Four of them here, and I've met all of them and none of them are
the right guy. So let's circle back.
We started to talk. You described in some detail
what James experienced with cuck angst.
Talk about how you experience cuckoldrous angst.
What causes angst for you in this process?
I think what causes cuckoldrous angst stems from this long
standing relationship that James and I have.
I'm a very sensitive person and always worry about other
people's feelings, in particular his.
And so for instance, an experience, you know, cuckolders
angst is I'm just gonna talk about this one thing.
So finally meet somebody local and the sex is great, you know,
doesn't live far and James has met him super.
He's like, oh wow, he's got it so nice.
He's very warm person. This is great.
But what would happen is I would go say, say, go to his house.
And then our thing was James would drop me off, be my Uber
and then pick me up. And then when he picked me up in
the car, I was still like numb from the amazing sex I had and I
just couldn't open up. You know, I just, I couldn't
talk about it. So he thought I was holding
back. But what it was was I was just
trying to process what happened. And then we get to start
watching the videos, and he sees how the passion and the
chemistry, and he's like, oh, my God.
Like, I can't watch this. You know, at one time, I think
he closed. Yeah, I think we're watching on
an iPad. I was like, I just can't watch
this. And so I became a little
hesitant to share too much because I was afraid it's going
to hurt his feelings. And now we've learned so much
through that experience that we can watch those moments together
on. And he enjoys editing those.
Like there's two men that I get with that.
There's this deep physical connection when we fuck.
And he's like, these are the things I love to edit.
As hard as it, you know, it's kind of contradictory.
And so I think what I worry about is, is he OK?
Is he gonna be OK? You know, instead of worrying
about am I gonna be OK, I'm worried about, like, how is
James gonna feel? And he would get irritated with
me. He's like, come on, Like, this
is part of it. So sometimes he has to correct
me to just, you know, go for it, don't you don't have to ask for
my permission to do things 'cause even though I find the
men, I set up the dates, I still feel like I need his validation,
but I don't. And he's like, you know, come
on, like, because I worry that he's going to react in a way and
I'm going to hurt his feelings. So I think that was it.
And, but the first time I witnessed the cuckold angst was
with my, that woman that I was dating because I experienced
angst, but I was, I didn't experience it like I've
experienced now because I'm, you know, I'm a little bit older, I
have more experience, you know, we don't like to say the word
old, but you know, I have more wisdom and now I have more, I
well, and also I have more confidence.
But it is learning your, the cues that your cock is giving
off and he can get really quiet and Moody.
And then I'm like, like, what's happening here?
I know. So some but but he but but also
he's like I want. I wish you wouldn't tell me when
you have dates. Just go, like, I would love to
just be surprised. So I feel like I have to ask, I
need to tell him. And he goes, I wish he wouldn't
tell me. Like, you don't have to tell me
everything. So we've come a long way since I
wrote about it, you know, a year and a half ago.
So that's my next. That's what I'm going to start
writing about, I think. What?
Is it your perception now that you've kind of gone through that
learning curve, that that anxiety that he feels is kind of
the draw for him too? I mean, it's, it's not a
negative, actual negative thing. It's like part of what he gets
out of this, You know, that's a question I get all the time,
like, well, what's your husband getting out of this?
And I think part of it is that angst he wants to feel that he
wants to feel that tension. He wants to feel that he, he
just wants to feel that. Do you feel like that's
happening with James too? Oh, I think, oh, definitely.
I mean, he does want to feel that, but I still sometimes, you
know, instead of saying, well, just, you know, you need to just
suck it up. That's too bad you feel that
way. You know, he may want to talk
about it and then me just, you know, I've heard some, you know,
come some cuckolders may just let their cucks do and be.
But I'm kind of somebody that doesn't like that kind of energy
around, you know. So I would rather as I would
rather kind of get to the bottom of it so we can move forward
instead of and learn from it as opposed to always feeling like,
did I do the right thing? Did I say the right thing?
Did I share it the right way? But now when we see those
videos, we like we love watching them.
I'm not, you know, I don't have those.
I don't have that hesitation. But I think it's it's also
indicative that your relationship itself is very
evolved. I mean, if all couples
communicated as carefully about such intimate details, you know,
I think there would be better marriages in the world.
And and I think that's one of the things that this dynamic can
bring to the table that you have access to if you take it.
If you take it, you know, it's a wonderful communication tool.
And, you know, it touches me that you're so sensitive to his
needs and, you know, tuned into what he might be feeling too.
But that's that's a beautiful thing.
Yeah, I mean, I, I, I do find that you as a man and you want
to be a cuckold, you have to have a strong personality.
But we're all human, right? Like everybody's going to feel
vulnerable. And you have, you have to, we
have to be vulnerable with each other.
And that's sometimes that's not easy, you know, to let your
guard down and just say what's on your mind.
I think, you know, originally maybe, you know, he has this
fear. He's so James and I had a very,
very robust sex life and, you know, just some physical
complications. Things aren't quite as they once
were. So he knows he can't provide it.
But sometimes he's like, well, why I, why can't I do that?
So it's like, well, you can't because a you don't.
Because you can't. I thought you had you.
I thought you had bravado at one point and but guess what?
You don't. He's like, well, why do you let
them spank you? You know, like I we when we
tried BDSMI just could not. I didn't like him dominating me.
I didn't want him spanking me. I just tying me.
I just thought it was silly, like no like.
And that's not really the dynamic that your relations,
your fundamental relationship was was founded on.
So it's almost like play acting and that either fits or it
doesn't fit. Right.
And so when you meet people and they have new, they introduce
new ideas and new things just like, oh, we're gonna try this.
And so we've tried so, so many things.
This this would be a whole nother conversation of all the
things we've done and tried together and what I didn't
really like with James, where I love it with other men.
And that's part of what gives me angst.
Is he gonna be OK with is he gonna have angst or is he just
gonna be jealous or, you know, my and hopefully I answer the
questions on cuckolder's angst. It's more just like, is he gonna
be OK or. And it hasn't.
It's really not, you know, And I do experience, I guess,
cuckolder's angst when I haven't had a lover in three months.
But now. But that's.
Kinda. It's a different kind of angst
where you that's a whole. That's a different.
It's a different angst. Yeah, you've got just.
A different. Concern for Jame, the concern
for James angst and the I'm sad 'cause I don't have a bull
angst. You know the two separate
things, but they're both angsty. They're both angsty.
They're. They're both angsty and so, you
know, so, you know, women have to be strong too.
And communication is so important.
And yeah, honestly, James and I've had our best conversations
in bed. That's that's our safe space.
That's where we pretty much talk about everything though.
I could be making dinner and we talk about things come to mind,
you know, and and it's not all serious.
It's sexy, it's fun. It's not all just, you know,
gloomy. It's very positive and upbeat
most time so. Right, that's.
But, but it's real, so that's the most important part.
Yeah, well, you, you guys are a great demonstration about many
of the most important elements of how to make a a cuck
relationship work and be joyful and still function and not blow
each other up. It's it's it's a beautiful
thing. So I'm going to make some notes
for myself so that our next topic, next time we talk, we can
take a deep, deep dive into some of these other topics because
you're a wealth of experience and sensitivity and knowledge.
And I think our listeners would benefit from from hearing your
perspective. So I want to thank you, thank
you, thank you for spending some of your time.
It's been a delight. I wish we lived closer because
we'd be doing coffee more often and stuff.
But you know, if this is, this is a an acceptable substitute if
we can't do that. So anyway, thank you so much for
your time. OK.
Well, thank you. I really, really enjoyed it.
So look forward to the next one. Yeah, yeah, we will connect and
we will. We'll take another deep dive.
Thank you so much, Anne. Thank you.
And the way to find Anne's blog will be, as I mentioned, on the
show notes, and you could go read some of her great stuff
over there. There's some really sexy stuff
over there too. I'm telling you, you'll like it.
Thank you. Until next time, Crystal Welch
out.