1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:05,240 You know, she really enjoyed or liked the soccer coach, our kids 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,840 soccer coach. She was younger and you know, we 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:10,800 have lots of bedroom talk about and nothing happened, right? 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:12,680 We just sort of fantasize about it. 5 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,920 And, and she said to me one day, she said, you know, you sort of 6 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,680 seem a bit sad after we, you know, we've been fantasizing 7 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,120 about that. And we, she said, we don't have 8 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,040 to do that anymore. That's making you jealous. 9 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:25,880 And it was actually the opposite. 10 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,120 I said, no, no, no, it's, I'm not sad because it's fantasy. 11 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,560 I'm sad because it's not, doesn't feel like it's going to 12 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,280 become reality. And she was kind of surprised by 13 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:36,560 that. And, and again, we'd had this 14 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,720 heart to heart and, and I said, I really want you to do this, 15 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,360 like pursue this. And so that was the first time 16 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:47,720 we sort of had a, a real sort of, it's more of a, a cock 17 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:50,000 dynamic. There wasn't really the 18 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:54,920 humiliation piece, but she was doing something on her own, you 19 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,560 know, And it, it turned out better than expected for both of 20 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:08,440 us. Hey everybody, I just wanted to 21 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,760 give you a quick notice. I am starting to offer a 22 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,360 one-on-one coaching session. It's called Ask Crystal. 23 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:20,560 It is coaching for individuals and couples as they explore 24 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,680 ethical non monogamy. Whatever your dynamic is. 25 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,000 I've been living in this dynamic for 10 years and I've learned a 26 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,240 ton. And I hope to share some of that 27 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,280 wisdom with you in the hopes that it will help you. 28 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,160 So you'll get the details in the show notes and I hope to see you 29 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,800 there. Good afternoon. 30 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:43,240 Crystal Welch here and the Beyond Monogamy podcast today 31 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,440 I'm very excited to have a conversation with. 32 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,920 It's just a friend I met on Twitter of all places. 33 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,440 He is a physician, a practicing physician. 34 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:59,520 His wife and he are in some type of dynamic, which I'm gonna have 35 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,240 him describe. But it's been a really 36 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:06,680 fascinating journey to hear how they are evolving and have 37 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:08,440 evolved. And I thought it would be 38 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:13,960 interesting for everyone to get a peek into this good doctor's 39 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:18,800 life and and how he navigates this with his wife. 40 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:24,120 So welcome, Doc Aaron. Crystal, thank you for for 41 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,920 having me on your show. So let's start with why don't 42 00:02:27,920 --> 00:02:31,200 you tell us or tell our audience, how did you meet your 43 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,080 wife? And was your agreement in the 44 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,080 very beginning to just have a sort of traditional monogamous 45 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:39,640 marriage? Yeah, that's a good question. 46 00:02:39,640 --> 00:02:43,640 You know, we we met, we worked together actually, and, and met 47 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:48,560 that way and, and pretty early on in our relationship had a 48 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,440 fair amount of sexual adventure. And, you know, we both had a a 49 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,040 pretty high sex drive. We got into, you know, some non 50 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:59,240 monogamy, but it was, you know, always done together and in this 51 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,120 consensual way. So, you know, we went to some 52 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,960 swimming, swinging clubs and we met some other couples and and, 53 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,240 you know, it was fun. It never really was amazing 54 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:13,680 though, you know, and, and it wasn't until we sort of did this 55 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,600 more one sided monogamy that we sort of found that that that was 56 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,160 the, the sort of spice that really fit for, for our 57 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:25,600 relationship. Tell us how that evolved for you 58 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,920 because one of the questions, frequent questions that comes up 59 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:33,280 for a lot of men is because this is typically a male driven 60 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,520 dynamic. How do I get my wife to do this? 61 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,160 And you know, how did that start for you? 62 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:46,040 And then what was her response? I, I got lucky 'cause I'm, I'm 63 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,480 probably one of the the rare guys where it was was more her 64 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:54,800 idea, at least initially. And we, we were talking one, one 65 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:59,080 night and, and just kind of sharing past stories and, and 66 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,480 she said, just tell me something kinky that you would, you know, 67 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:05,160 I had done with a, a previous partner and I, I dated somebody 68 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,760 when I was in university who, you know, have long distance 69 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,600 relationship with her boyfriend. So her boyfriend would come out 70 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,120 and visit and when he would visit, they would end up having, 71 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,720 you know, they'd have sex together and then she'd sort of 72 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:19,920 come back and hang out with me after that. 73 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,000 I mean, I had no idea what cuckolding was. 74 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,720 Didn't really feel like a cuckolding thing, but I, I, you 75 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,160 know, loved the experience and was recounting that to my wife 76 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,920 and, and she really, you know, thought that was kind of pretty 77 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:33,520 neat. And, and then she started 78 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,720 recounting stories of, of a boyfriend she dated in 79 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,160 university. And, you know, her, her stories 80 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,800 rivaled mine. You know, he had a roommate and, 81 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,600 and it started with, you know, the roommate kind of listening 82 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,880 to her and her boyfriend and they knew he would listen and it 83 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:55,200 both got them both off. And she started, you know, 84 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,000 progressing it to where she would leave the door open and, 85 00:04:58,280 --> 00:04:59,440 you know, he would sit on the couch. 86 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,880 Imagine like students, like small place, right? 87 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,040 And you know, he'd sort of watched them and, and one time 88 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,920 she just, you know, without asking her boyfriend, just 89 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,000 invited him in and and took charge. 90 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,160 And, you know, he sort of watched them up close and you 91 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,440 know, it progressed over over weeks. 92 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:20,000 And, and she said she had a great six month relationship 93 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,120 with the two of them kind of trying out new things. 94 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,520 And there wasn't a lot of recent activity. 95 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,760 Occasionally, you know, but it was more she would, she would be 96 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,640 with one of them and then go be with the other one or one of 97 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:33,960 them was making dinner and she'd be making out with one of them 98 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,000 on the couch. Or she'd she'd recall movie 99 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,480 nights where, you know, they'd be watching a movie where she's 100 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,880 got a guy on each side of her and you know, she's kind of 101 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,120 taking turns with them. And, and I just, I love that. 102 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,040 I mean, it was a huge turn on for me to hear that and clearly 103 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,280 a huge memory and turn on for her. 104 00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:52,000 And, you know, I asked if it was something she'd want to do again 105 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,680 and she absolutely said, you know, she, she would for sure. 106 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,360 And, you know, and then it kind of progressed from there. 107 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:00,800 Cool. I heard a number of different 108 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:05,120 things in there, but a, it sounds like she, she was sort 109 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:09,120 of, she sort of gave herself permission early on to be 110 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,400 sexually free, which is really cool because I think that's a 111 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:14,320 hard place for a lot of women to reach. 112 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:16,000 They have to sort of evolve to it. 113 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:21,440 So good on her for that. And then it also sounds like the 114 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:26,320 configuration that she had in college there was sort of Poly 115 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,760 flavored where, you know, it wasn't you, you said it wasn't 116 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:35,520 really a threesome, but they all got along and they all you know, 117 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,680 they she sort of switched back and forth. 118 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,760 That's kind of a more of a Poly dynamic. 119 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:45,480 So because what I'm seeing in the field out here is a lot more 120 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,080 cut couples are kind of evolving, seems like to me 121 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:54,360 anyway, many cut couples are evolving toward a polydynamic 122 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:59,400 where they might have one boyfriend that's more steady. 123 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:05,280 I I know a number of couples who have live in boyfriends, so 124 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:07,640 there's a lot of possibility there. 125 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:12,320 Have you ever while you guys were developing your own rhythm 126 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,360 and your own interests, did you ever Have you ever found 127 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:22,240 yourself feeling jealous or left out as your wife took lovers 128 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:24,600 but. You know, I have a little bit, I 129 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,560 mean, it's, it's part of the appeal of it, right? 130 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,160 And I think what you see about Polly, probably, you know, it's 131 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,000 probably accurate. You know, for my wife, at least 132 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,280 a one time stand or one day stand doesn't really work. 133 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,640 You know, it's got to be somebody that she has a 134 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,560 connection with and and you know, and then develops a bit 135 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,040 more of a relationship with, right. 136 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,560 And it just makes it safer. You can do more things. 137 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,600 And but there was always still a bit of a power dynamic like she 138 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,680 would she would be the one in charge that the times it didn't 139 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,760 work well was, you know, we were, I had to find somebody 140 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,280 online or through a dating site or something else. 141 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,080 And if I was pushy, really wanting somebody or wanting this 142 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:05,760 to happen, I mean, it just didn't work right. 143 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,560 So like her being in charge and her her finding somebody that 144 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,280 she could really connect with, you know, it made it better, you 145 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:15,760 know, certainly better sex for her. 146 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:17,960 It was just more intriguing for me. 147 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,120 I never really had this huge jealousy. 148 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,880 Like I really did like knowing that that she was having a 149 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,680 really good time. There was just something, 150 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:30,640 there's a little bit of angst there, but not a lot. 151 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,280 Like there was something that it was just such a turn on about 152 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,880 that, you know, the first time we did it because we can't, we 153 00:08:37,919 --> 00:08:40,360 sort of had swinging things. We've been in the same room with 154 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:45,080 other couples and swapping. We didn't do that a lot, but you 155 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:49,880 know, she really enjoyed or liked the soccer coach, our kids 156 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,400 soccer coach. He was younger and and you know, 157 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,440 we'd have lots of bedroom talk about it. 158 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:57,920 Nothing happened, right? We would just sort of fantasize 159 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,560 about it. And and she said to me one day 160 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,200 we're sitting down at the beach having kind of just a heart to 161 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:04,960 heart talk about our relationship. 162 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,560 And she said, you know, you sort of seem a bit sad after we, we, 163 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,680 you know, we've been fantasizing about that. 164 00:09:12,680 --> 00:09:15,320 And, you know, we, she said, we don't have to do that anymore. 165 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,680 That's making you jealous. And it was actually the 166 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:19,160 opposite. I said, no, no, no, it's, I'm 167 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,640 not sad because it's fantasy. I'm sad because it's not, 168 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:24,880 doesn't feel like it's going to become reality. 169 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,080 And she was kind of surprised by that. 170 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,160 And again, we did this heart to heart and, and I said, I really 171 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,040 want you to do this, like pursue this. 172 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:37,360 And so that was the first time we sort of had a, a real sort 173 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:43,080 of, it's more of a, a dynamic. It wasn't really the humiliation 174 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:47,400 piece, but she was doing something on her own, you know, 175 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,960 And it it turned out better than expected for both of her. 176 00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:53,040 That's fantastic. And the other thing that I'm 177 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,960 hearing too in your description is you guys really take your 178 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:01,360 communication seriously. Like she's concerned about you 179 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,960 having jealous feelings. You're wanting her to have 180 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,600 pleasure. I mean, that's, that's really 181 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,560 good stuff for a healthy relationship, which is why, you 182 00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:15,160 know, I get back to why isn't everybody doing this? 183 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,160 But of course, everybody won't ever do it. 184 00:10:17,560 --> 00:10:20,080 But it's it, it's such rich ground. 185 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:25,120 If you can find that place where you know you both are invested 186 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:29,280 in it, you both are having fun, you're both stimulated, it's 187 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:34,040 keeping your relationship fresh and growing all the time. 188 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:36,160 I think those are such important things. 189 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,760 And those are some of the things I think go stale in the monogamy 190 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:46,440 world and why a lot of people choose to pursue something like 191 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:50,480 this because it's, as I've said many, many, many times, my 192 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:55,160 favorite psychologist, Esther Perel has said, you know, all 193 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:59,400 human beings have two core conflicting needs, the need for 194 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:03,960 safety and security and the need for change and adventure. 195 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,240 That's hard and that causes a lot of conflict in monogamy. 196 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:14,880 If the this this way of being consensually non monogamous 197 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:19,840 really solves both of those issues, do you feel that that's 198 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:21,520 that that's potentially true for you? 199 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,480 I mean, I that's how I see it for us, my husband provides the 200 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,360 safety and security and stability that the relationship 201 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,440 needs. You know, I bring the heat. 202 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:32,000 That's how it works at our house. 203 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,280 Well, Crystal, absolutely right. I mean, I, I think that that 204 00:11:36,560 --> 00:11:39,480 those two needs are probably even more true for women than 205 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,480 men. You know, I mean, if you look at 206 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:47,360 the research, the it's upwards of 50% of men fantasize about 207 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,760 this, right? And it's a very small number 208 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,600 that do it and it's a smaller number of women who fantasize it 209 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,240 but about it. But I think, I think women, you 210 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,040 know, they may be looking at it from a place of fear and just 211 00:11:58,040 --> 00:11:59,600 not enough understanding about it. 212 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,360 I think men bring it up to women in a terrible way. 213 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,160 And, you know, the porn and stuff out there is terrible. 214 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:09,400 So, you know, people just get a, a wrong conception or, or idea 215 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,760 of, of what this can be right? It, it, it can actually be 216 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:18,200 something quite beautiful and, and, and you know, quite amazing 217 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,080 for all three people involved or more, depending how you set it 218 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,040 up. If you, if somebody came to you, 219 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,520 let's say you had a patient that came to you and was asking your 220 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,000 advice, saying they were conflicted and they wanted their 221 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,320 wife to do this, but they didn't know how to bring it up. 222 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,440 Or maybe it's a woman saying, you know, my husband wants me to 223 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:39,920 do this. I'm not sure about it. 224 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,520 Sounds intriguing. How would you advise them? 225 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,720 Well, I can tell you I would, I would definitely not talk about 226 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:47,520 this with patients. OK. 227 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:49,600 So that that would, yeah. That's right. 228 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:51,760 You're not a you're not a psychologist, so that's not 229 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,560 really your wheelhouse. But but you know what, it is 230 00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:59,600 something that that I mean, you know, I can tell you certainly a 231 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:04,440 good rich sex life is really important for health, right? 232 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,520 I mean it, it's a huge part of being human. 233 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,800 I think monogamy can work for a lot of people. 234 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,800 I think it doesn't work for a lot of people. 235 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,760 And I think, you know, I would encourage people to, to take a 236 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,080 risk and explore the options. It doesn't mean it's right for 237 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,880 everybody, but, but at least have the conversation, right? 238 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,880 And I, I think there's a lot of people out there who just don't 239 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,520 have the conversation. So they, you know, they either 240 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,320 miss out on something or worse, you know, they, they go have an 241 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,960 affair or something else, right, Which you know, is, is harmful 242 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,920 to a relationship as well. So, you know, there's, there's 243 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,000 huge potential benefits from this. 244 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,800 And, and I can certainly tell you from experience when, when 245 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:47,000 my wife has a new boyfriend and you know, it's not that often, 246 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,320 right? But like when she has a new 247 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,040 boyfriend and it's sort of hot and heavy in those first few 248 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,040 months, like, you know, will sometimes play around with 249 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,600 denial, but like she's much more turned on. 250 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,880 She's much happier. There's definitely much more 251 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:03,560 desire or she'll try to do the the chastity things sometimes 252 00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:07,000 with me, but you know, or denial, but she she always 253 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,480 breaks it before me, you know, so you. 254 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,440 Know that's a terrible problem to have, Absolutely. 255 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,160 You know, so I, I don't know that I could truly do do that. 256 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,920 Well, we tried a little bit, but. 257 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:24,320 It sounds to me though, that you guys are playful, you're having 258 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,200 fun with it. You, you don't bend it hard and 259 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,400 fast rules. You just experiment with things. 260 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,640 I mean, I think a lot of those things are the key elements, the 261 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:38,360 key elements to keeping it fresh, keeping it fun, keeping 262 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:42,560 it alive and just being creative and supportive of one another. 263 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,400 I think that's it's really just beautiful how you've explained 264 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,680 it. So I appreciate your your story 265 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,800 very much. Like having having that 266 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:55,920 connection being authentic, you know, if something's not 267 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,920 working, you know, speak up works better. 268 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:05,760 I found if you know the the female part of the relationship 269 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,840 is determining, you know, who's she gonna meet and that sort of 270 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,880 stuff, right? It it really you gotta let her 271 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,240 her run the show a little bit. With this, I think that's really 272 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,320 key. I mean, 'cause really one of the 273 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:23,600 core tenants, as I understand it is, and the way that we pursue 274 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,480 this is very much like like you guys do. 275 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:32,400 This is a it, it should be, it should be a female choice. 276 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,800 I mean, we're not the opposite of that is how it's portrayed in 277 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,680 porn as a fulfillment of a male sexual fantasy. 278 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,600 You know, we're not, we're not kink dispensers. 279 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,040 And when you're, you shouldn't look to your woman to fulfill 280 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,800 your kink, develop the, the conversation and develop the 281 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,960 interest and ask questions and be curious about her and find 282 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,840 out what you can find out there. Because you might be surprised, 283 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,240 you know, if you approach it in that manner, you know, as she's, 284 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,080 you know, you're interested in her having more pleasure or 285 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:12,320 having more fun or having more interest in her life rather than 286 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,560 fulfilling the male's kink fantasy. 287 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,880 I think if people would approach it more like that, they'd likely 288 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,240 have better results. Do you agree? 289 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,880 Do you agree with me? Yeah, absolutely. 290 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,960 And there's nothing wrong for the people that really like the 291 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,360 humiliation piece. It just didn't work for me and 292 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,720 and our relationship. But you know, because it also 293 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:34,560 makes it more about the man, right. 294 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,880 But you know, that's what is working for both people. 295 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:43,600 Then then great. But yeah, I, I think, I think 296 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:48,720 presenting it in a way of, you know, like I want to expand our 297 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:54,200 relationship and I'm, I really, I get off on seeing, you know, 298 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:58,960 you enjoy yourself and you know, I know from like some of the 299 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,400 things you've said, you get off on on wanting to be with 300 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,599 somebody else. So like, let's let's explore 301 00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:08,079 that together, right. I think the safety factor too, 302 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:11,839 you know, it's a lot harder for women to have their man go off 303 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:15,040 and be with somebody else. So, you know, making it that one 304 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,520 sided non monogamy really worked for us. 305 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,960 That was part of the deal to make this, you know, a success 306 00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:25,200 and all. It's like she's got that 307 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,200 security. I'm not going anywhere. 308 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,520 But hey, if she wants to have a really good time with, you know, 309 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,760 a younger guy or somebody with more stamina or whatever, it is 310 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:36,720 great, right? Like she gets to have a lot of 311 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,880 fun and I get to share in that fun too, right? 312 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:44,760 It's, it's a pretty erotic thing watching you're, you know, the 313 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,480 person you love more than anything, getting dressed up for 314 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,800 a date. And you know, you see your head 315 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,560 off and you, you know, she's probably not coming home till 316 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,800 2:00 in the morning and you're counting down those minutes and 317 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,960 you can't sleep and you're extremely aroused, right? 318 00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:03,320 And you know when when she gets home and she starts telling you 319 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:09,200 all about it and you know it's and you see how routish she is, 320 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,080 It's. Pretty sexy. 321 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,320 Well, I'm so, so happy you took a few minutes to talk to us 322 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:21,440 because it just from the, the conversations that we've had 323 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,360 online, it just sounded like you had a wonderful dynamic and 324 00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:27,240 you've, you've found a way to navigate that. 325 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,800 I'll ask you one last question before we end. 326 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,800 Have have you had any big problems or issues that have 327 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,400 come up that you've had to navigate? 328 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,840 And if so, how did you do it? You know, the only thing that's 329 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,520 sort of come up over time, a couple of times actually. 330 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:49,280 I mean, she's she's an incredible catch and, you know, 331 00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:54,720 very, very beautiful woman. So it, you know, sometimes when 332 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,560 she's been with a bull for six months or something and they do 333 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,600 develop a connection, right? Like that person does start to 334 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,360 fall in love. And you know, then sometimes 335 00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:05,920 we'll get to a point where they say, look, I just want you to 336 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,120 myself, like, you know, like, let's stop all this and let's 337 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:10,760 just have our relationship together. 338 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,800 You know, that that does become a problem. 339 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,480 It's it's not a for sure thing that it's going to happen with 340 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,400 somebody. But you know, you can see how 341 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,280 how that's a possibility. So, you know, having ways to 342 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,440 navigate around that is going to be important. 343 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,560 Again, that goes back to the communication, right? 344 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,480 And, and when we've had that happen, like we've usually ended 345 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,600 things with with that bull or boyfriend. 346 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:37,240 They're not the mean way or anything like that. 347 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,040 But it, you know, it just starts to become a little bit too messy 348 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,000 with that. And it's, it's not that feelings 349 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,080 aren't going to develop. I mean, it's hard for my wife 350 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,680 and somebody to be having sex for six or more months and and 351 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,440 not develop feelings, right? I mean, that's normal. 352 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,280 I think it's. It's not just sex. 353 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,400 Anybody that says it's just sex is probably lying about that. 354 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,840 You know, there's something more to that, but it if it starts to 355 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:01,920 become a bit too intense, then that's a problem. 356 00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:05,160 Yeah, Yeah, we, we've been through that too. 357 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:10,160 And I think what you've just described is the difference 358 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:17,920 between having a connection and also having a commitment. 359 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:22,960 You might have a connection with a bull, but my connection, my, 360 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:28,160 my commitment is to my husband. He, he comes first. 361 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,640 He's the one that's standing at the door at the end of the day. 362 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:36,160 And it but it is tricky, you know, it's I think it would be 363 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,640 unusual to spend a good amount of time with a bull and not 364 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,600 develop feelings just as you stated. 365 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,400 But it sounds like it sounds like you got. 366 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,720 Well, and, and Crystal, to be honest, both sides, right? 367 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,880 Like we, we were, you know, we, we lived out on the East Coast 368 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,920 and we were driving down, you know, just to point to this 369 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:58,040 vacation spot. And, and, you know, so we're in 370 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,240 the car for like 5 hours and it's, it's me, her boyfriend at 371 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,520 the time and, and her, and you're just having conversations 372 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:09,520 in the car and, you know, it's like, it felt almost like this. 373 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,400 It's hard to describe it like this relationship between the 374 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,240 three of us, right? Like he's expressing what he 375 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,040 likes. Actually, he really opened up 376 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:21,200 and and said that, you know, when, when she would go over to 377 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,240 his place back home, you know, he, he absolutely loved knowing 378 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,000 that she's coming back to me. You know, like there was just 379 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,920 something that boosted his energy about that way. 380 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:36,760 Like here he's fucking this guy's wife and, you know, really 381 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,400 enjoying it and just knowing what comes after that. 382 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,640 And you know, but having those conversations, the three of us 383 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,960 it, it just made me realize there's, there's it's not like 384 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,680 one and done like a one night standing just doesn't work. 385 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,320 But you, you are building a relationship with another 386 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:53,920 person, right? You've got your primary 387 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,200 relationship, but you are building this other 388 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:57,960 relationship. And I, I don't know that enough 389 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,240 of that is really discussed in the cut dynamic. 390 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:06,240 It still does tend to be more focused on the man as opposed to 391 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,960 what that woman needs and how that relationship develops. 392 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,160 Yes, I you're so right about that. 393 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,360 And I think that my friend Venus and I have talked about this 394 00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:18,680 many, many times. We can't understand why every 395 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,520 woman wouldn't want a cuckold husband. 396 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,440 But you know, we say that jokingly, but but we, the 397 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,960 benefits for us are obvious to us. 398 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,640 And when asked what are the benefits to the man, one way 399 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,560 I've described it is, well, if you have a bull that you have a 400 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,360 relationship with and all three of you get along and you have 401 00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:42,840 that chemistry and you've got good communication. 402 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:49,040 You know, the benefit to the husband is he gets to sort of 403 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,280 feed on that new relationship, inner energy that that she 404 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,640 brings to the relationship. But also from the bull 405 00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:00,400 standpoint, he has all the pleasure and all the goodies 406 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,280 from the woman and none of the responsibilities, 'cause that's 407 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:05,000 the husband's. Yeah. 408 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:07,880 Well, it's, it's a good, I don't know. 409 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,160 I mean, it's a good point. I mean, tell you before we have 410 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,360 to go. I mean, we, we had a, we had a, 411 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:17,600 one of her boyfriends over, I guess a few months ago and, and 412 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,000 we had a weekend to ourselves and, and we're just watching a 413 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,400 movie and hanging out. And you know, you're right. 414 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,200 I mean, it's, it's nice for the woman because, you know, I, I 415 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,480 got some nice dinner stuff. I'm making him dinner. 416 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,280 We're kind of hanging out like he's getting her wine. 417 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,640 And, you know, we kind of get part way through this, this 418 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,320 movie, they're making out. She'll still come over and kiss 419 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,000 me a little bit. And, you know, eventually, like 420 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,760 he just says, you know, can we go to the bedroom? 421 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,240 And I mean, she just, it's quite sexy, right? 422 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,800 Like your wife smiling at you as they head off to your bedroom 423 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,000 and they're in there for a bit having sex. 424 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,160 And, and, you know, she'd come out just to to check on me. 425 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,480 And, you know, I can see that he's orgasmed in her, right? 426 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,360 Because she climbs on me and she's rubbing a little bit on 427 00:23:58,360 --> 00:24:00,720 top of me. And you know, clearly I'm 428 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,000 covered in him now, right? And. 429 00:24:02,360 --> 00:24:04,680 And. You know, this was kind of quite 430 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,440 sexy and and she says, well, why don't you finish cleaning up? 431 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,840 And then, you know, she goes back in there, has some more 432 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,640 sex, but we end up having sex the same night. 433 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,760 And it's just, it's, it's really kinky and fun. 434 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:21,640 And you, you have such an interesting mix of crazy 435 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:26,320 emotions with the whole thing, you know, and, and we ended the 436 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,640 night actually because she wanted us both in there and 437 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:33,840 we're both sort of spooning her and you know, it's kind of sexy, 438 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,560 right? It's, it's, yeah, it's a neat 439 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,440 experience. So I would really encourage, 440 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,280 like your listeners, you know, talk to your spouse and, and, or 441 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,720 your partner and, you know, take a risk with that, but be very 442 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,720 authentic and honesty. Like these are the things I 443 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,600 would like. What do you want? 444 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,760 And, you know, have that very honest, real conversation. 445 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,720 Yeah, absolutely. And also ask what might be in 446 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,600 the way if if there's an interest and there's still 447 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,360 hesitancy, dig deeper into that. Find out what's in the way. 448 00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:09,040 Because together you'd be surprised what you might be able 449 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,080 to discover about each other. And it might take you to an the 450 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,720 exalted place that you just heard from Doctor Aaron here of 451 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,600 where you can be in a, in a long term marriage that, you know, 452 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,400 many of his peers who were married probably in the same 453 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,600 length of time are kind of stale and kind of bored and kind of 454 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,880 not having sex anymore. And he's like, woo Hoo. 455 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,960 Well, and this, you know, I've not ever had an affair and my 456 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,560 wife hasn't ever had an unconsensual affair. 457 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,600 You know, I can tell you this is a lot more fun than having an 458 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,760 affair and it's a lot more fun than it just, you know, dying 459 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:50,200 and becoming stale, right? So, you know, it's, it's, it's a 460 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:51,760 way to make it pretty interesting. 461 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,800 Yeah, absolutely. I just thank you so, so much for 462 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,400 spending some time. I think, I think our listeners 463 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,440 will get a great deal out of what you shared. 464 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,320 Cause what I got out of it was just a whole lot of joy and a 465 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:08,320 whole lot of communication and a whole lot of love between these 466 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,640 two people. So thank you so much, Doctor 467 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:15,120 Aaron and we'll, we'll have to check in with you again here in 468 00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:17,760 a while and and maybe have another session.