Welcome to Beyond Monogamy with your host, Blogger, podcaster,
and speaker Crystal Welch. This show explores how
relationships are changing in the 21st century from consensual
non monogamy to cuckoldry, polyamory, and interracial love.
This is the place to learn everything you wanted to know
about consensual non monogamy. Now, without any further ado,
let's welcome your host, Crystal Welch, and dive head first into
this episode. Hello friends and followers,
Crystal Welch here. I am super, super excited to
bring you an interview with Drew Marston today.
Drew is a lifestyle connoisseur and curator.
He's an experienced bull and the publisher of Spade magazine,
which many of you are familiar with and I'm just super, super
excited to have a chance to talk to him and find out a little bit
more about him. So y'all are invited.
So here we go. So, so Drew, thank you for
agreeing to to chat today. I wanted to 1st ask you, your
publication is so professional and so colorful and so well
done. How did you tell me about how
you started Spade magazine and how that idea developed and how
you've evolved and all that background?
Sure, sure. So first, let me say that it is
an honor to be on your podcast and to be talking with you and
getting to know you better and to have this opportunity to
share with your listeners as well about Spades.
So I started it as a blog, originally on the Blogger
platform in 2014, and it's kind of as a lark to do some Queen of
Spades interviews and things just kind of took off from
there. People really liked reading the
interviews, and so I started slowly adding other content
pieces to it, setting up a schedule for publication.
And then around 2017, the Blogger for some reason decided
to shut the blog down. And they didn't give me a reason
why. They shut the blog down South.
After three years and some fantastic success, I had close
to, I believe, 200,000 followers on Tumblr when that was still a
thing from the blog. We had about 30,000 on Twitter
and it was over 3 million views for the blog itself.
So there was a kind of an interest in starting it back up
again and people were clamoring for it and people had my e-mail
address were asking when it was come back, but I could not find
a venue to republish it because that not too long after that
Tumblr decided to shut down. So I kind of went into a period
there where my career start to take off.
So I really didn't have time to do it.
And then I'll say around 2019 or so, summer of 2019, an
opportunity came back to use the platform Gumroad and then to try
to design it myself when I couldn't find some designers who
would work with the content. And so I just kind of set about
learning a program, a website called Canva and teaching myself
how to do that and kind of put out a first publication to some
friends and got some feedback and just kind of designed it
from there. And and that's where we are
today to putting, working on, putting out more regular issues
as it gets popular again so. Well, it's super, super
impressive and I'm happy to hear that I use.
I'm a Canva user too and it's like solved so many problems.
Yes, I love it. It.
I know it's and it's easy. Like even people like me who
know nothing about tech stuff, it's super easy to use.
So, so yeah, it seems like a lot of people that write and blog in
this space. I mean we all have to find our,
I mean all these issues from the judgement from platforms like
Tumblr that you know, Yahoo takes it over and decides that
they don't want any more X-rated.
It's a completely ruined Tumblr. There was such great curated
content on there and it's frustrating.
So we all just kind of have to, I think, be flexible and find
our way around. But I'm really glad that you
found this space because your stuff is really impressive.
And I'm. And I'm.
Very, very, very proud to announce and he's going to
feature one of my articles in there, so.
Yes, it's going to be in the very next issue, the 5th issue,
and it's a fantastic article. I hope you guys all check it
out. It's beautifully written and
it's this actually this whole issue, the fifth issues I kind
of believe one of my best issues.
It kind of marks a turning point because from design standpoint I
believe that we've kind of got, I've kind of gotten it to look
the way that I want but also the content is just it's just firing
this issue some of the best that I've I've collected so far so.
Yeah, it's very good. I'm excited.
So let's talk about one of our common interests.
Obviously, you've had some interest in you have an interest
in the lifestyle, the queen of spades.
I clearly have an interest in black man.
That's the article you're gonna feature.
So let's talk about our mutual love.
Sure, sure. In this day and age too, it's so
amazing to me that race is even still a deal, but it's like more
of a deal now than it's ever been.
And that's so in some ways that's so disheartening for me.
I I still get attacked online pretty regularly because I I
state my clear preference for black men.
And so of course I'm judged as a racist regularly, you know.
And I go back and I retell the tale 1000 times with my first
boyfriend my first love was black and it's just been with me
my whole life and so if you wanna call that racist, I'm
gonna call it. It's my preference and but it's
it's amazing that in this day and age and 2022, we're still
fighting this race. It's it's worse now than it's
ever been. And I, you know, I don't want to
get into any kind of politics, but clearly the political
environment has hurt that whole discussion a lot and I'm hoping
that we can circle the wagons and bring that around because it
hurts. It hurts all of us.
And frankly, I'm just sick of
it. I agree with you 100%.
It seems that, you know, of course we're going through
particularly in this country well the world really a time of
upheaval and change. And I think you kind of have
that happen every 40 to 50 years.
And I think we're kind of right there at the that that cycle.
But that stuff seeps into the lifestyle because we're we're
living you know in this world. This is not what we do 24/7.
But I do think that some of this that we're seeing in the
lifestyle, some of this coming after people for their
preferences or their, you know, being proud, being able to say
hey, this is what I like this, these are, this is who I like.
I think a lot of that is being amplified by people being able
to just kind of put anything out there.
And I think some people want don't necessarily feel relevant.
And so one of the ways that they can feel relevant or feel heard
is to be critical because I noticed that a lot of times,
especially in the social media age, what we do is we tend to
respond to the people that criticize us more than the
people who compliment us. And I think, you know, all of us
are guilty of that. And I think some people in order
to be heard, will criticize you just to be noticed, just to be
on your radar. And So what I say to to people,
I actually had a conversation with someone on Twitter the
other day, primarily through DMS.
And they were talking to me about, you know, Spades magazine
and me glorifying the Queen of Spades and and and all of that
and that particular lifestyle. And I told him I was like,
listen, no one forces you to be in this lifestyle.
Everyone who's in this lifestyle is up in it of their own choice,
and they're expressing their own preferences.
There are plenty of things out there that are not my
preference. I don't go to those people's
spaces and then tell them, you know, how I feel about them or
how they should be conducting themselves, especially if
they're not harming anyone, especially if it's all between
consensual adults. I have a choice to move on, not
participate and not to go into those spaces.
And so I think what we have to do in this lifestyle is we have
to be, we have to be bold and say these are our spaces, these
were created for us by us. We're proud of what we are and
we're not going to let you come into these spaces and bring your
negativity and and and bad energy and your criticisms and
and all of that. If you're not participating, you
should not be in these spaces. You know, that's a super mature
and adult response and sometimes mine isn't as much.
So I will swear and then block. I do a lot of blocking.
But but I really appreciate your perspective and that's the first
time I've heard it and I think it's.
I think you're right on that. We do as just as human beings.
We tend to feel like we have to defend against negativity rather
than support positive comments. I mean, I I'd do my best to be
gracious when someone compliments me, but I know I'm
much I'm exactly that. I'm much more reactive to people
who want to criticize. But I think your perspective is
right on. You know, this is our choice.
We're not hurting anyone. We don't force anybody to be
here. You don't have to read my stuff.
You don't have to subscribe. You don't have to look at it.
So move on to the next thing you know.
But but I don't want your hate. I just don't want your hate.
We live in a very reactive culture.
We live in what is called a clap back culture.
So for instance, I work primarily as a consultant in
what would be called the niche of the PR field.
And so one of the things that I advise my clients a lot because
one of the things that happens is someone will say something
and then the response the meeting.
We then have meetings and tons of emails go back and forth
about what do we say about this. And so my response to them is
#1, know who you are, OK. And I actually attended this
conference where Tyler Perry was speaking and he said this and it
kind of stuck with me. He said that one of the things
that he had a celebrity friend that was in trouble that was or
had somebody had said something about them negatively and it was
going around social media and this person was upset and they
knew they were going to respond. And so he called him up and he
said, I know you're going to respond, do not respond.
He said you have to know who you are.
He said when they talk about you, they have to say it in a
blog post. When you talk about them, you
have to call a press conference. So you have to understand what
you're dealing with. And I think when we, when we
respond to the negativity, when we respond to the criticisms, a
lot of times, especially if it's not constructive, you can tell
when it's constructive criticism and when someone's having a
genuine concern about something that you can address.
But when it's just the silly stuff, the the shaming that we
see this going on, we can we can respond by letting them know
that we're not going to be taken in that direction.
Yeah. And I think you, you you really
like let people know, hey, this is not someone who's going to
continue this back and forth with me, so it's not worth my
time to even try and bring them down.
Yeah, I think that's an important distinction that you
said that because we are in a very, we're in a very reactive
time in history right now. But I think it's obvious that
there's a segment of people who don't believe like we believe
and they want to criticize and they somehow are energized by
negative pushback. And for all of us, I mean, I
feel like I'm being called to rise to a higher standard, you
know, to do exactly as you've suggested and not engage, not
defend. You know, you're never gonna
change. You know, you're never gonna
change a racist's mind. You're just not going to.
They're gonna have that. You know, Democrats and
Republicans are not gonna change each other's minds.
And so why engage in the the negativity?
So I think that's, and I, and I would just say that to all of
our listeners too, is to for all of us to be vigilant and turn
down the temperature, don't respond, don't respond to that
stuff and certainly don't respond in a negative way.
I'll shut my computer down and then swear, but I don't want to
swear, but I don't want to swear at anybody.
So yeah. You know, yeah.
Just don't give, just don't give them that power.
Yeah. Don't.
Don't give them that power. And don't let them know that
they've had that power over you. Do it in private because it's
not, you know, you're not gonna change anybody's mind and it.
Doesn't it doesn't. Add anything and so you know,
engage with the people who are genuinely curious.
Engage with the people who want to know who are curious about
you, curious about the lifestyle, curious about, you
know, race, play, whatever it is.
Those people. Want to join in and enhance
those experiences with you? Yeah, yeah.
And and I'm, you know, that is the bulk of my followers.
Most of them are not heavy lifestyle people.
They are mostly cucks and cuckoldresses.
They are trying to learn. Most, many, many, many of them
do not, are not in cuck relationships, but they want to
be. And so they're trying to find
their way. You know, I'll engage with those
people all day long because I I wanna help in any way that I
can. But when somebody comes off the
wrong way, they're out. And I just don't.
I just take no prisoners with it.
But I, and I think that that's, I think that's the right 'cause
I want to encourage curiosity, I want to encourage people who
want to learn. And that's why we do these
podcasts, 'cause we can learn from each other and and it
benefits everyone, it benefits everyone.
I agree 100%. So now I want to ask you a few
kind of voyeuristic questions about bulls.
Awesome. Because yeah, my my little
niche, I I have not interviewed a lot of bulls, just a couple.
But a lot of my followers are interested in the bull
perspective, like how do you #1, How do you vet a person or a
couple that you might want to engage with?
How do you, what is your criteria?
How do you go about that process?
So I think it's different for for every bull.
For me personally I go through. So I've I've been in the
lifestyle as a bull for about 15 years, maybe a little bit more.
And I would say over the last eight or so, every two years or
so, I try to re evaluate you know what I'm experiencing, how
I'm growing, what my interests are and then try to clearly
articulate those, try to clearly communicate those to people and
look for people who fit, you know that that particular thing
that I'm looking for. And so the best way to vet, the
best way to vet is just by having conversations.
I just, I have kind of, you know, I've done enough
communication over those years that I've kind of developed a a
a checklist or a list of questions that I can ask.
And I can pretty much figure out about 3 to 4 questions.
And you know, where I'm kind of going with this and you can kind
of engage, you know, especially if you're talking with couples,
if you're talking with the husband or if you're talking
with the wife, just, you know, by how they communicate.
So yeah, I would say for me it's just really kind of being in
tune where I am at that moment in my journey and then trying to
find people who fit that particular interest.
So that way the the vibe is good, the communication and and
everything is good and you're not trying to force something to
fit. Because I've been in that
situation where like when I first got involved I first
started being in the lifestyle where I wanted to be with this
you know particular person or or something.
But it wasn't a good fit. We we were not compatible.
We just, we weren't looking for the same things and so that is
really the most important thing in vetting.
And I agree with you completely. I just wrote recently reposted
an article about. It was a.
It was an article that I wrote some time ago about.
It was written for inexperienced bulls trying to be a bull.
And you know, from my perspective and the things that
they need to keep in mind and the things that they that I have
experienced that have gone wrong.
And I think from my perspective, having a lot of both good and
not so good experiences, that's the key thing is can as quickly
as you can determine the person that you're talking to are, are
you interested in the same thing?
I mean that common interest is the key thing.
Do you know, in terms of dominant submission, in terms of
getting the husband involved somewhere or not boundaries, all
of that stuff, but wanting the same thing?
Because in my experience, when I meet a bull that isn't very
experienced, what what my most often experience of that is, is
that very often they will, they will say anything just to get
the job done, you know, and I say, look, I'm sapiosexual, I'm
demisexual. So I need some brains and I need
some connection. That's just me.
And you know, without those two things, nothing happens
downstairs at all. And and so I try and be very
clear about that and they go, yes, I want connection, yes, you
know I'm an intellectual or whatever and they're nothing
even close to that you know, So, so that the inexperienced bull
in my, I've just met so many of them, they will misrepresent
what they want either because they're not self aware enough to
really identify what they really want or they're just they just
want an experience. And they have.
They're afraid. If they say that, then you will
eliminate them. And what they don't understand
is that that's actually better because if they lie, we do
engage. And I can quickly determine that
everything they said was not true.
It creates, it creates really bad feelings.
And then I'm out you know you'll never see me again and and it
makes you know and I found at a certain point trying to get
through COVID 2. I I found myself getting pretty
cynical because of just inauthentic bulls and so so
that's why I'm interested, you know, and I wish all of them
were just exactly like you there'd be there'd be a lot
happier women out here if, you know if all the bulls were self
aware as you and is experienced as you.
And you know as much of A gentleman.
I mean it doesn't require rocket science.
It just requires being being curious about somebody else and
excavating them a little bit and saying oh that's a fit for me or
that's not a fit for me and going from there.
But deceiving and misrepresenting is absolutely
the wrong way to go. Well, you know, so I can
remember when I was thinking back to like when I first got
into the lifestyle and was first as a bull.
Fortunately, I have no horror stories like there was, there
was really not something that I look back that I'm like super
embarrassed about that, you know, that went wrong.
I behaved myself in a bad and an unbecoming way, primarily
because, you know, I I knew how to deal with people.
So, you know, at that time when I entered the lifestyle was
always I was already running a business and the business was
kind of taking off. And so I was, I was learning how
to communicate with people in a way that would distinguish
myself. So I kind of, you know, relate
that into the lifestyle. But there were a lot of mistakes
that I made that were just based off of inexperience.
And the thing that I find the longer that I'm in that the big
difference between what inexperienced bulls don't
understand is the 2 ES OK one. They're looking at it because
they think by joining into the, by coming into the lifestyle,
it's going to be easy because they believe that, you know,
this woman is, you know, married, she has all of this and
she's just looking for one thing.
And that's what I'm looking. For Yeah, available.
That's all I need. I just need somebody who's
sexually available. Exactly.
And so they believe, you know, that's where I'm at, that's
where she's at, that's you know how this is going to work out.
But from the couple perspective she already has that which the E
that she's looking for is enhancement.
And when you understand that then you understand that you
have to bring a different perspective and something
different to how you present yourself, what you bring to the
experience and and you know also how you look at yourself.
It's also kind of you know you have to do some self work to get
to the to get to the stage that I'm at in the lifestyle, I had
to do a lot of self work. I had to do some internal work
to make myself not just a better bull, but a better person
altogether. And then that becomes a
reflection of what you present to other people when you're
learning, when you're educating yourself, not just about the
lifestyle but about other things.
Because then you can also be like a great conversationalist
when you have, because you know you're going to have to talk at
some point, you know, so you know that.
That's one of the things that I the disconnect in You know we
have to get I I think the couples are right and and
looking for the enhancement and we have to show them how to find
bulls who will fill that enhancement component.
But particularly to the new bulls, the inexperienced bulls,
we have to get them from away from the easy mindset into
understanding the enhancement mindset.
And once you do that, you grow exponentially in the lifestyle
and as a bull. And you really get the
experiences that you were you thought you were looking for
when you came in, sometimes way better than you ever imagined
they could be. Well, you just had a mouthful
right there. And that's something super
important that I want to emphasize is that that
expectation that everything should just be quick and easy
Because absolutely, in the cuckold world, it's just not
that it's complicated, it's it's more complicated.
There are more layers of complexity.
You're actually entering a marriage.
You're being invited into someone's marriage.
And. And willfully and but there are
expectations there and and one of the things that I've also
struggled with a little bit is sort of the there is a
difference between the swinger set and the cuckold set.
It's two different lifestyles. It's two different lifestyles
and the cuck portion of that is much, much, much smaller.
So the chances of finding bulls that are used to the swinger
style or the swinger rules or the swinger protocol or whatever
you want to call it are much more prominent.
It's much harder to find bulls that have had experience with
cuck couples and understand how to how to graciously play a part
in that. I know that a lot of our swinger
friends go out of their way, you know, like and some of them will
have these hardcore boundaries that they won't see anybody more
than twice because they don't want attachment to form.
You know me, I'm looking for attachment.
And so it's a much harder sell, you know, for a bull who wants
to just come over and jump me, you know, to say, look, I'd like
a little companionship. I'd like a little, you know, a
date once in a while or, you know, and that's that's a whole
different world and it's much, much more difficult.
But trying to educate swinger bulls into how to be a good
cuckold bull? It's not an easy task.
Well, you know that mentality that a lot of, a lot of
so-called bulls have is it would work if, you know, some swinger
couples weren't. So what's the word I'm looking
for here? So done with single guys, you
know, because primarily because of you know, the way they they
act and so you know, they start looking to the hot wife and the
the cuckold dynamic, but they don't understand that there's
relationship there, there's nuance there.
Right, right. And there's there's relationship
within relationship, you know what I mean?
So like for instance, you know, just as an example, if I met
you, there's a relationship that I have with you that is
distinctly different than the one that I would have with your
husband. Yes.
And but it. But he's involved.
So there's these, there's there's all of these dynamics
that are working. And you have to understand that.
You have to understand nuance. And that's why working on
yourself is so key, because then you're not trying to project,
you know, you're not saying, yes, I can do this, yes, I can
do that. Yes, I can do this just to get
in, right. And then now you have to
remember the persona that you created for yourself because
you're not realistic. You know about about who you
are. Right.
Bring yourself, bring your best self, but also be mindful of
those dynamics and how those work.
And that takes, that takes some work, that takes some time, that
takes understanding, nuance. And you know, if if you're just
a squirrel trying to get a quick nut, that's not going to work
for you. Yeah, certainly not with cuckold
couples. It is a lot more complex and
it's so it can be so intensely satisfying, done the right way
with the right people. Where there's high, high respect
between the cuck and the bull, they might have playful, you
know, interaction. Like my husband loves a little
playful humiliation and absolutely loves to hear, you
know, small penis or whatever from the bull.
You know, he he that's part of his makeup.
But it takes, like as you said, it takes some some nuance and
some time and some effort. You know, that's the thing that
I've seen people who aren't willing to put the time or the
effort. They just want the quick hit.
And, you know, it's sad to me because the times that we have
connected correctly with the right people, it's so intensely
satisfying, so intensely satisfying, because all three
people are thrilled with all three people, you know, and it's
and you know, it's just better than than any other thing.
That's why. I guess that's why we're doing
it, but yeah. Those are my best.
Those are my best experiences. I mean, almost, almost all of
them have become good friends. Yes, you know, and sometimes
even closer friends to me than, you know, some of my vanilla
friends and some family. Yeah, because we have this thing
in common that we can be open and honest and transparent with
each other and and candid about, you know, our fantasies and what
we love. And yeah, it's just, but boy,
it's it's just really, it's challenging, it's challenging to
put all that together and I'm past the point where I really
want to take a bull to school about that.
I mean if somebody came to us just genuinely curious and
wanted to learn how to how you know how to do all that with a
couple, I would certainly invest some time in that if they were
genuine. But you said the key thing is
for all of us, all three parties involved in our dynamic must be
highly, highly self aware. It's the key to everything.
You have to know who you are, what you're capable of, what you
where your boundaries are and be able and willing to be open and
honest and transparent about that.
And then you've got, you've got an arena to play in that's
virtually unlimited. It's unlimited.
Yeah. I mean you find so I find a lot
of times that you know when you make that effort and you get to
know someone and you get relationship.
I always say that, you know whatever boundaries that you
were told at the beginning, a lot of times they're going to
want to push those. Why?
And and and that's actually a great thing.
That's this. Once you're once, you're
starting to see that you have a very important ingredient to the
whole relationship that means they trust you.
Right. And when that happens, all kinds
of magic happens. All kinds of magic.
And that is the land that I hope
to lead others into. To not be so quick and not be,
you know, to do the work on yourself.
To be curious about other people.
To be willing to invest some time and some effort into
something of real quality. Because in our experience, we
have never. We firmly believe at this point
that there's no possible way that we would have as good a
marriage as we do had we not had deeply involved relationships in
the past. And and still with a bull or
two, you know, there's not like 100 of them.
But those relationships that have gelled up and meshed are
golden. They're golden.
We all have been willing to expand and grow and we grow each
other. We grow ourselves and we grow
each other and where are you gonna find an opportunity like
that? I mean, it's just it's.
Just not many. Not many, not many anywhere in
life that you look, not just in this actual arena, but anywhere
you look that you can be in a pot of people that are willing
to stretch and grow and and grow together like that.
So that's very cool. I'm so happy to talk to you,
save, save. You are a breath of really fresh
air. Thank you.
I'm up here. I'm up here in Oregon where it
is a black man no man land. So I'm I'm perpetually, I'm
perpetually frustrated. So I have excuse me for my
frustration. Bleeds through everything.
No. Worries.
No worries. I have AI have a vanilla friend
who moved to Bend, I want to say a year ago and he's thinking
about moving to like the Portland area.
And so I remember it was a group of us that were together with
him at one of his at one of our lunches before he left and we
were laughing cause one of the one of my buddies said Oregon,
He's like he goes, I think the only other black people out
there are the Trail Blazers, exactly.
Exactly. And I'm just and you know
they're not easily dateable but you know, but yeah I and I often
joke, you know there's 66 black men that live here.
I've I've met them all and you know and yeah, so well.
So that's really that's really refreshing It's just really
refreshing to to talk to someone so self aware and in the role
that you play because it's it's really important and there are
those of us out here who so want what you, what you are and what
you have because it's just golden.
We've had our best experiences in the lifestyle with people
like you who are self aware and and and know how to act.
Just know how to act. I I don't know if you've seen
there's been a lot of articles recently and I I'm on medium
because it's a great place to curate content and to get
feedback on your content. But there's a lot of articles
that are appearing in there now that having to do with women
have sort of left behind men. You know, there's a lot of
articles out there about, you know, in cell men and that women
are just over it and they're not not putting up with the BS
anymore and you know, that's a real thing.
I wondered if that was right now.
I'm seeing it in print so much now that I think it's a probably
a real thing. But then you know and so at the
heart of the issue is it that women have, we have sort of
systemically raised our standards to the point where the
average man, unless he's self aware, unless he's willing to
take on himself and his self-awareness and and grow, he
might find himself really alone. As women have become more
financially capable, we, you know we often just opt out.
We opt out. And so that I, you know, I hope
that that's not here to stay. I hope that there's a Clarion
call for men to just rise. Whether you're black or white or
red or yellow or whatever you are.
You know be the most that you can be because there's a lot
available in life to you if you can develop those sensitivities
and. I I I'm really hoping that we're
we're at that point where men begin to begin to rise up
because you are 100% right there is this disconnect in which and
we're seeing these this a lot in these conversations that we're
having really about woke culture and toxic masculinity it's it's
quickly becoming a either or camp you have to be for
something or against something it's kind of becoming that
mindless tribal you know you're you you have to pick a label not
whether you've actually thought about the issues not actually
thought about what's the core of what's being discussed but just
pick one and then that's that's the group you have to go with
and you have to go with 100% of what they say.
And So what we're having right now is we're in an era where
probably for the first time since ancient societies that
were largely matriarchal in their leadership female
empowerment and it's a global phenomenon And so men who have
been in a male dominated society are now facing.
You know we're brought up in believing this one thing and
being taught this one thing about how we interact with the
world about how we look at ourselves how we view our
masculinity. How we view women, how we view
our sexuality, all of those things.
And a large part of that is built on these old notions of
roles and how women fit in their particular role.
And women in female empowerment kind of shatters all of that.
It threatens. It's very threatening.
It's very threatening when you when you know you're when you
know it's not about your pleasure anymore.
It's not about your ability to provide anymore.
It's you have to face someone who's the opposite sex, who is
now viewed as who is viewed as your equal, who can, you know,
do as much if not more than you can in society.
And that is very, very, very, very very threatening to a a
vast swath of men, but also to the voices that are really
influential right now, especially with men.
And I'm I'm hopeful that we don't go backwards.
It feels like it's sometimes that we are.
But I'm hopeful that because this is out there, this is in
the open, that a lot more men are going to have to realize
that they have to step up and they have to evolve.
For me personally, I have a big, so I I come from probably one of
the toughest arenas that it is to change.
And as far as like deprogramming and all of that, I grew up in a
very conservative Christian, evangelical religious
background. As a matter of fact, from the
time that I was 7 until about the time that I was 14.
They were training me to be a preacher because I was always
kind of the nerdy kid who's, you know, reading history and all of
those kinds of things. And so you know you're it's one
thing to grow up in that culture, but then it's another
thing to become someone who as a preacher is supposed to be a a a
steward, a guardian of that particular culture.
And then as you grow older and you realize I don't what I'm
feeling and where I'm being pulled towards and the knowledge
that I'm learning doesn't necessarily fit what I've been
taught. And so you have to do some
examination and that's really the hardest thing.
So now I have to examine about you know what I've been
learning, what I've what I've been taught and what is wrong
about that, what is so toxic about that and come to terms
with that. So the the the view of evolving
and doing that internal work I had to do at a very young age
when I start to realize that a lot of that stuff that I was
taught was not correct and it was incredibly toxic and was
limiting of who I could be as a person.
So coming out of that and transitioning into, OK, so this
is what I have to do to put forth the effort to evolve
within all areas of my life, not just as a bull, but within all
areas of my life. I've kind of reached that that
that space where I'm good with that because I've done, I've
done some really hard work, especially that a young need to
deprogram myself and to try to live my best and fullest self.
You know what I mean? Good.
On you because there's not very many people coming out of the
evangelical community that aren't that self aware and that
and you put your thumb right on it.
A lot of this toxic stuff is coming right out of
evangelicalism. I mean that's been patriarchal
forever. I was in, I was a financial
advisor for many years and the office, the office that I was in
it, it's also a very male dominated field.
There were there were three of us, three of us females advisors
in that firm. The rest were all men.
Well, they had secret meetings every week, Promise keepers And
for those of you who don't know who the Promise Keepers are,
they believe that women should not.
I mean I was one of the biggest producers in the company and
they believe women should not work, that women, women have
only one role and that is to be breeders, to stay at home, have
kids. They are to be deferential to
the husband and that he, he is the leader of.
I mean how do you, how do you come out of that environment and
then arrive where you are. I mean that's like a miracle,
Drew. I mean, really, seriously,
that's that's that's big. The more that I look back on it,
the more that I I I I realized that that is true.
But it's also it's also helped that along the way I met some
really great and empathetic people who not only opened me up
to the possibility of what being different, what he evolving and
growing out of that looked like, but also worked with me where I
was. They met me where I was and
helped me to grow. But you.
But you had to bring to the table an open mind and curiosity
to even let that in. So good on you.
Holy cow, Holy cow. Well, I think you ought to go
back and start speaking to that community back there.
I, you know, I, oh, my goodness. I so, so my my my father's still
very much, you know, you know he was in Promise Keepers back in
the day when we were growing up. And you know he's still very
much, I mean even though he's not involved actively in like
you know many of the churches and organizations and things
like that, that mentality and that ideology is still very much
a part of him. You know how he looks at the
world. So just based on like his and I
interactions. I was going to ask you, what
kind of relationship do you have?
Those are those are two very different worlds.
It is oil and water. Is is is is literally oil and
water. And I feel like the older that I
get, the more comfortable I am and the more comfortable I am in
my evolution, the happier I am. And for him, that represents it.
It for him that represents a a slap in the face, a sign of
disrespect, because it is a rejection of everything that he
put into me. Right, right.
So, yeah. And it's yeah.
So the I'll just put it this way that the the the best thing for
me to deal with that is to usually just kind of keep my
mouth shut and say, uh, huh, yes, Uh huh.
Yes. Whatever.
No, I that's that's remarkable
and I'm super proud of you that you were able to take yourself
on and find your own happiness and your own truth in there and
and I think that's just the bottom line for all of us.
I mean at the end of the day, we have only so much allotted time
here on this earth and it's up to us to figure out, you know,
what's going to, what's going to offer the the most satisfying
existence that we can have here. And unfortunately, I don't think
enough people are even in that question enough.
They're sort of going on day by day.
And when there's so some of these deep questions are really
there to be asked and you can excavate such incredible joy and
freedom by just really being, honoring and being true to
yourself through that. Well, that's what a great
conversation this has been. I am just so excited to finally
talk to you and boy you are just a whole bag of gift.
That's. Thank you.
You are, you are, you just are.
I'm sure I had one other I I had a billion questions and of
course we get off on a tangent and I can't remember half of
them. It's typical, but since my
followers typically are much less experienced than you are,
what would be your best advice other than what you've already
given? To be self aware, To be curious,
to be open and to be kind? To be kind to people?
People who might want to? What's the best way do you
think? Or you could you advise people
to approach this lifestyle and find an entry point?
What do they need to know? What what resources should they
reach out for that would help them navigate their own way?
Well I kind of touched on it as far as you know what I feel
Bulls should do as far as you know couples, I think for them
really the communication is going to be one of the best, the
best things, you know one of the things that you see particularly
with our lifestyle is almost always it's the guy, the
husband, the male partner who is usually interested 1st and finds
resources. And a lot of times the the most
prevalent resources are you know the bad stuff, the porn or the
memes or you know things that are usually are centered around
shame and guilt. But I would tell them to just
kind of dig deeper beyond that. I think you know if they're
listening to this podcast they're on a very you know
they're they're they're on a very good start to their journey
of learning more from individuals who are in the
lifestyle and to also listen to other you know podcast.
There's some other great ones like keys and ankles and as in
these cultures and some others that you can listen to that that
would be really great educational sources.
And one of the things that I find too dealing with new
couples is once these guys start to get this knowledge and then
they take it back, the wife wants to listen to this kind of
stuff rather than the other stuff because this is from real
people who can speak to individual instances.
So I would say communication, openness, honesty and patience
because a lot of times, you know, one of the things that I
see with, you know, a lot of these husbands is, you know,
they present it and of course, you know, you have to deal with
societal programming. So this lifestyle is very much
different from, you know, what we're programmed for societally.
So to to be patient with someone until they reach that point of
understanding, OK, this is something that I would like to
go and try. I or I trust you enough to
explore this particular Ave. And you know I've, I've told a
couple of guys this that one of the things that they have to
work on is work on your relationship, work on you know
who you are as a partner. Work on your trust.
So that way, like when you're bringing something to her, you
know? She's open.
Yeah, she's open, yeah. And it's not just some.
It's not just some, you know. Crazy idea.
Yeah, some, some, some fantasy that she brought to her, just
like, you know, 'cause you know, I, I, I told a buddy him honest.
Like it's like you know every guy you know it seems like if
you meet somebody and like especially if you become
intimate with them, all of us, almost all of us within like
that first I would say month. But really it's probably like
that first week or two or something.
We've said something stupid like hey, let's have a threesome, you
know what I'm saying? Like and then we start bringing
out all this other. So they're used to you bringing
out these ideas but just be intentional in the way that you
approach this. So and it always, it goes back
to effort. It goes back to effort.
Goes back to Everett. Yeah, yeah, you.
You said a lot there again, that most it's mostly men who
discover, especially in the cuckold world, discovered at
first. But their only frame of
reference is porn. And so they know they there's
something there that's attracting them to it.
But porn is not the deal. It's not the deal.
And so I would just say to add on to what Drew already advised,
which was great, great advice is do talk with people who are
actually living in the lifestyle to tell you what it's really
about. Venus is a great person.
Her whole thing is about loving cuckold relationships, and she
and I are very much aligned with that.
But find, talk to people or listen to people or listen to
pot or listen to and read stuff from people who are actually
living in that lifestyle. They're not just writing
erotica. They're not just writing porn.
They're not just only fans, you know, They're people who are
living a lifestyle because it's meaningful and joyful for them,
you know, and I think you also mentioned patience.
I think that's a key is to not try and go slow.
Go slow. There's not a race here.
Go slow. Introduce one idea at a time,
talk it over, try it on mentally, see how it fits, and
if not, jettison it. Try something else.
But but get your input from people who know, from people who
are living this way. They'll give you the straight
scoop, where the potholes are, where the joy is, and everything
in between. So.
And it's a lifestyle. It is.
It's, it's, it's it's a lifestyle.
Yes. You don't do you know everything
24/7, but it's sliced, it's a journey.
You know you're not, you know it's kind of like, you know,
dieting and exercise and and things like that, you know, So
growing up I used to be not I I was didn't come from an athletic
family or fitness minded or any of that kind of stuff.
And so when I get in, get involved in it, it's like, oh,
OK, so I want to hit this goal. And then if I start seeing this
and this and this and I'm reach this mark and then I reach that
mark and it's like, OK, well that didn't happen.
Now I'm disappointed. Now I'm checking out.
Now I'm looking for, you know, different things.
It's like, no, it's it's a journey.
It's a process. It's about consistency and
showing up and and doing the work, you know, So.
And boundaries. Boundaries are a great thing,
yes, because that shows that you're thinking about it in a
way. But boundaries aren't always
permanent, so. Especially in a three person
configuration, they can morph around all over the place, but
it requires all of those people to be self aware enough to say
this is working for me and this is not working for me.
Let's make an adjustment here. And is that working?
You know, And that communication about those things will lead you
to a very exalted place. And and that's what I hope for
everyone that dips a toe into this lifestyle, 'cause it isn't
something that, you know what, we're so far in, we we can't.
We could never put it down. We can't.
It isn't a pick up. It isn't a pick it up and put it
down thing. No.
We're. In this I'll be on the hunt for
black men till I die. I was actually telling this to a
really a really good lifestyle friend.
I was telling them, I said I've been in this so long that I
don't even really vanilla date. Like, if I start dating someone
seriously, it's either going to be someone who is in this
lifestyle or who is open to it because I can't see myself
leaving. But you're not going to put it
down. Yeah, yeah.
And that's, that's, those are the kind of people, listeners,
that you want to get your information from because they
are living it, because they believe in it, because they
found. And why is that?
Because we have collectively found tremendous joy and freedom
and just joy in it, which keeps us here, which means we can't
step away because why would we? There's no reason that we would.
Those are the people you wanna
take your advice from? Exactly.
Really, Drew, I loved every single second of this.
We're gonna have to do it again. I'll come up with a whole other
tier of questions, but I. Thank you.
I'm down. So, so, so, so much for your
time. I know it's valuable and I just
appreciate you so much. And I for for our listeners, I
will post all of Drew's contact information, his website, the
magazine, please subscribe. It's golden and you'll be able
to contact him there. But thank you sincerely for
spending some time with me. I just, you know, I'm gonna be
thinking about stuff you've said now all night and and then I'll
have to start writing it down because you know, that's that's
how I roll, so. Anyway, I'm glad to be on, glad
to make this connection with you and have this fantastic
conversation. This is, yeah, this is.
Super fun. Thank you so, so much.
Until next time. Until next time.
Thank you for tuning in. You can access Crystal's latest
blog and podcast at C Welch Poly on Medium and find her on
Twitter at Crystal Welch 99. Your questions and comments are
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