He gets a lot of joy out of me being the one in charge, but
it's so hard, especially for men like my husband, to let that go.
Like they want it so bad, but they fight it.
They have this huge desire and fantasy to be super submissive,
but to actually do it, it's some days it's like pulling teeth.
Like, hey, you forgot who's in charge here, man.
Hey everybody, I just wanted to give you a quick notice.
I am starting to offer a one-on-one coaching session.
It's called Ask Crystal. It is coaching for individuals
and couples as they explore ethical non monogamy.
Whatever your dynamic is. I've been living in this dynamic
for 10 years and I've learned a ton, and I hope to share some of
that wisdom with you in the hopes that it will help you.
So you'll get the details in the show notes and I hope to see you
there. Hello listeners.
Crystal Well Chair, and I am happy to report we've got a good
conversation to have today with cuckolders.
Abby. She is a queen of spades, She is
a content creator and she's going to tell us a little bit
about how she got into this lifestyle and and where she's at
with everything and maybe where she might hope to go sometime.
So, Abby, welcome. Thank you so much for having me.
Let's start with how, how were you raised?
What did you hope for relationship wise as a kid?
I mean, did you aspire to like just get married, have some
kids, White picket fence? That's how I grew up.
How did you What were the ideas that you had about relationship
when you were small and maybe even before you were ever
looking for a partner? Pretty similar to yours.
I grew up. My parents are actually still
married. So I grew up with married
parents who, you know, I, I strongly believed in marriage,
but I noticed they didn't have the most loving relationship.
And so I knew I wanted something different, like a different kind
of marriage, But I knew I always wanted to like I was like, I'm
going to be married and have kids and everything's going to
be perfect. So when you thought about having
a different kind of marriage, did that just mean that you
wanted one that was conflict free or you wanted a completely
different situation? My dad is a very passive person,
and my mom is definitely the dominant person.
And I always didn't like that so much just because my dad never
stood his ground, you know? And so I was like, I want a
strong man. I want a guy who's going to put
me in my place if I needed to, which ultimately it led me to
picking really bad men. But it's interesting how that
works in the psyche. I just recently had a
conversation along those lines. I can be very assertive and very
sort of masculine. And now I'm drawn to the same
thing. I'm drawn to very, very
masculine men for, for some of the same reasons that you
identified that I I wanted what I didn't have.
And it's interesting how we just develop like that as human
beings. So now you're married and you
have a family and you're also in the lifestyle.
How did all of that happen? So my husband and I met on a
dating site which happened to be a kink website and on his
profile it noted that he was into cuckolding which I had no
idea what that was. So I had been recently divorced
and looking just to I was like I'm never getting married again.
I'm going to live my best life, I'm going to fulfill all of my
desires. So I went on the website
thinking I was kind of kinky, but I have no idea the level of
kink that I had in me or that there was out there in the
world. So I met him on there and it was
a pretty easy conversation honestly because of the way we
met on that on that website to start the journey.
But when I first Googled what it was, I was very shocked and
turned off. Like there's no way I'm doing
that. Well, tell me more about this
'cause you, you know that you wanted something different and
you're on a kink website. How did he explain cuckoldry to
you? And what about that turned you
off? When you Google it like it's, it
literally sounds like there's this little tiny guy in the
corner and you're demeaning them and degrading them and like, how
can I ever treat someone I love like that?
That sounds mean. I can never do that.
And then he sent me Venus's podcast and he said this is a
really lovely podcast. It really explains it well.
And there were some people on Twitter I didn't even know there
was naughty Twitter at the time. So he sent me Venus's podcast
and I binged listened to several of her episodes.
She described it so beautifully. And then some of the people I
would follow on Twitter showed it and I saw through watching
some of that. Like it actually is loving.
Like you can tell the partner is loving it.
It's not mean. And you could see that love.
And that's when I was like, OK, I can do this.
That's that's really helpful for new people looking to try and
find a way in. So thanks for explaining that.
And I think have, you know, I know I learned along the way
that not everybody has to do this the same way.
I know some perfectly lovely cuckolders and long term
marriages and they don't do any part of the humiliation play.
That's fine. You know, it's just finding what
works for you. My husband happens to love it,
you know, does does your husband, did he embrace that
part of it or you do you do more of a just non monogamous thing?
He likes he He has a fantasy for the humiliation.
It's hard to do because I feel like in order to do that you
have to have the right bowl. He's hard to humiliate because
he like I can't do the small penis humiliation because he is
not small person. He's very well endowed.
So it's kind of a joke, but so I have had to learn that.
There's definitely things we were wanting to explore further
in the humiliation aspect, but yeah, I guess Long story short,
he is into the humiliation part of it.
And so that's really interesting.
Talk a little bit more about how you rearranged your mindset to
be open and that you realized that you weren't hurting him,
but it's something that he enjoyed and something that might
have been sexually stimulating to him.
How did you sort of school yourself along those lines?
More trial and error to be honest.
So like our first date when we so when we met, we were long
distance and so he said we'll just keep dating and just send
me pictures or whatever. So I did that, but I thought who
cares? He doesn't care.
We haven't even met. So but then when we met, we went
to I had a kind of pre arranged I'd been speaking to a guy.
I pre arranged for this guy to meet us at this local sex club
and so we went on on our first date there and ended up taking
this other guy back with us to the hotel.
And so it was kind of like a test for me to see how he was
going to react to that scenario. And through the whole evening at
the club, I was kind of having fun, obviously, but also testing
him to see like, is he going to react like previous partners and
like, get jealous or shame me later?
And none of that happened. And I saw like his eyes were lit
up like a Christmas tree. And you can just see that like
just total adoration. And he was totally into me.
And we'd already developed a pretty good connection online or
not online, but speaking to each other since we were long
distance that it just, it was just like fireworks.
So it sounded like that, just the willingness to experiment,
to try something and and then follow that where it goes.
That is hugely great advice for our listeners out there that
wonder about that and are afraid to do that.
But it sounds like you had a great experience and and when
you could observe that he was just totally enamoured of you
for indulging in this thing that you guys were creating together,
what did that do to your level of trust for him?
Oh, it magnified it. Like I don't think I've ever
really fully trusted someone. Like I trust him because it just
because I've always been a promiscuous person.
I've always been pretty outgoing and it's a lot of what guys
always love about me when they meet me.
And then when they date me, they're like, quit flirting,
quit being flirtatious. And I could see that he that
never turns him off. He actually loves it.
And so to be able to be my true authentic self, I've never felt
more me or more able to trust a partner in my whole entire life.
You have just said a mouthful there, girlfriend.
I know I have to often talked about this profound intimacy
that can come from this lifestyle.
And you just very succinctly described how that happens where
you have an idea and you are unsure, but you try something
and then you see how everybody feels about it and then you talk
about it. You know, all of a sudden you go
from a relationship to like real intimacy and that's where the
party is. And it's hard.
It's it's thank you for sharing that because that's, that'll be
really, really helpful for our listeners who are looking for an
on ramp and not quite sure how to find it because they're
scared of all these different elements.
And that was very, very, very helpful.
So thank you for sharing that. Absolutely.
You guys have been together for now a couple of years and what
challenges have you met that you that you've been able to solve
and some may be that you haven't been able to solve?
Well, he was in the lifestyle for a good 20 years before
meeting me. So he's had a lot of experience
in lots of things where I was coming in as newbie and pretty
much open and willing to like he always tells everybody like I
just dove in head first. So it's pretty much open and
willing to kind of just let's do this, he'd say.
He'd bring up a topic kind of like throw it out the wall and
see if it sticks kind of person. And now further into it, I felt
like he was kind of driving it a little bit on certain things.
And then now it's like now that I'm settling in to me, there's
certain things that I like more that maybe he doesn't love so
much. And so we've had to find a
balance as far as that goes because, you know, he sometimes
he has, you know, we've had things happen and he's like,
this is not how I imagined our lifestyle, like at all.
And I'm like, well, you, it's not just one way, like I get to
decide too. Now.
It's not just, you know, we have to have these discussions
because it's going to evolve over time because we're both
going to decide what works, what doesn't.
Something I might like, he might not.
Those are some of the challenges we've had.
Which are all absolutely perfectly normal.
Nothing in our society teaches us how to have a healthy non
monogamous relationship. But you said a couple things
that are really important there. And first of all, your
recognition of him and your appreciation of him who embraces
and encourages your personal sexuality.
That's huge because the men in our culture, that's not what
they're taught. You know, the patriarchy says
women stay home, have the kids be quiet, don't vote, whatever
they you know, and so saying go ahead and you know, fuck the guy
down the street is it's it's usually not on the menu, you
know, and and so, but but you describe that beautifully how
you guys are navigating in that you're appreciating him for just
letting you be you. You know that you feel yourself
for the very first time that you can experience your own
sexuality as it is, and not everything is going to be
predictable even to you. You know, you'll find you might
find things that you really enjoy or really don't enjoy and
it it'll all be a surprise. But the fact that you have
figured out that as you talk about these things, you can
figure out what works, what bothers the other person, how
much, how important is it? And then and you just, and you
navigate that way. So that that was really, really
helpful. Thanks.
Thanks again for sharing that. You're welcome.
Is there anything in your experience that you haven't been
able to solve yet and that you're still kind of grappling
with? I I wouldn't say we haven't been
able to solve it. It's just kind of like I
mentioned before, just the evolution of certain things and
then also balancing regular life with lifestyle because, you
know, before we were long distance, so I would have to
play by myself and then we'd have to do it that way.
We figured out a way to do that long distance.
And then now that we're in the same home, well now it's family.
And so you think, how do you do that?
And what if we can't have a sitter and then we're still in
the same boat where, you know, you might have, I might have to
go by myself. And then we really haven't
finessed the when I play by myself because it's just, well,
I'm just, I'm just too nice. I just, I really love, I
wouldn't say I'm too nice, but like he's a, he wants the bull
to come in and have his way with me and then see you later, you
know, or if he's there and he's having a small talk, that's
fine. But when he's not there, he's
like, what the fuck? It's taking so long.
Like why aren't you calling me? I'm ready to talk about this.
I'm excited and I'm just so in in the zone and enjoying it.
I love the connection that I do have with my bowls.
So I love to chat, chat and snuggle and all of those things.
Have you guys set some boundaries that way?
Like if I'm out with a bull, I, you know, it's, don't call me,
I'll call you, you know, have you set some rules or some
boundaries like that that will help, help it be a little less
gritty? Oh yeah, we had to learn that
cause one time he was like, I texted him like we're done.
And then we were, me and the guy were talking for like 30-45
minutes and by the end of it, he was like irate.
And so then he's like, OK, just don't tell me you're done until
he's like leaving, you know, So we've had to like go over things
like, OK, this is what you, you just can't just don't text me
till like you're free to talk, 'cause when, when it's done,
when he thinks I'm done, he wants to talk.
It's his time in his mind, it's his time for us to have that
time of even if it's on the phone or if you know, he's out
of town or whatever, then that's our time.
So he doesn't want to know I'm done playing until I I can
actually talk to him on the phone or if I'm coming home.
That seems that seems like a reasonable compromise.
Was that pretty easy for you to implement that?
Yeah, it was, but it was just, it was just a learning curve of
trying to figure out like, OK, how do we, you know, how do you
feel? Cause he's pretty easygoing, but
that was just kind of the one thing that we really kind of
struggled with finessing. Haven't you noticed that when
they get sexually excited, they're not very reasonable?
No. Go on.
Like calm down. I'm like, I'm in cloud 9 over
here. I just got my world rocked.
I know, back the fuck off and go Jack off or something.
Why are you? So mad about leave me.
Alone. That's funny.
I love that, that's really funny, but it's really true.
Men with hard ONS are not reasonable at all.
They're all their thoughts. Down there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you can't talk to them.
They're, you know, Yeah, Like that.
So you said some important things there.
And this comes up very, very frequently with, if not most,
very many women who are consider themselves to be cuckoldresses
and men who want to be cucks. This notion of sort of topping
from the bottom where they desperately want you to do it,
but they want you to do it their way, their time on their time
schedule, their way and everything like the way they
want it. It sounds like you're
communicating pretty well with your husband, but how do you,
let's say, get him to recognize first of all, that he's topping
from the bottom and that's not what this is about?
And maybe a couple of ideas about how you redirect him when
he's doing that. That's a good point that I do
think he that is, and until you said that I'm like, he, that's
exactly what he's doing and I hadn't thought about it and I
don't that's something probably I need to work on is telling him
because I've, I've said before, you know, this isn't always
going to be the way you've imagined it, because now you
have me involved. Before it was just you and your
imagination. So that's a good reminder.
I do need to do that because my husband is a very alpha, like in
every, every aspect of life he is.
And so he definitely tries to talk from the bottom all the
time. And I think if he realized he
would, he would, you know, just really kind of giggle at me
because he would know I'm right. Well, it's, it's definitely an
issue that that you don't want to just sweep under the carpet
because because you know, one way that I have found that has
worked with my husband is to let him know when he's doing it and
say, I understand your motivations for that because you
want to see it a certain way. And he doesn't do it at all
anymore. But in, in the early days, but
it, it's it, it begins to rob my joy.
Yeah. What's joyful?
What's what's joyful about this is that I can finally be myself
and own my sexuality and have a man that celebrates that.
But it's on my terms, not yours. Exactly.
And and if and if you bring that to his attention, that when he
does that, it starts to rob your joy and your freedom and you
defeat the whole purpose of it. Well, and it probably, if he was
being honest, it probably defeats his joy too, because he
gets a lot of joy out of me being the one in charge.
But it's so hard, especially for men like my husband, to let that
go. Like they want it so bad, but
they fight it. They have this huge desire and
fantasy to be super submissive, but to actually do it, it's.
Some days it's like pulling teeth, like, hey, you forgot
who's in charge here, man. Yeah.
No, I I totally get it. My husband is a total A2 and he
just craves this other side. It's easier when you have a, an
A a longer term bull that understands that and can kind of
help play that role out. But in the absence of that, when
you're just dealing with mostly one off strangers here and
there, it's really up to you to to regulate that.
But for the cucks that are listening out there, take this
conversation to heart and understand that you probably
formulated a lot of your ideas about how you want it to be from
porn. Your wife is not a porn star and
she's not your kink dispenser. Encourage her to express herself
sexually 'cause you'll get more joy out of that and she'll get
more joy out of that. And let her do it her way.
She may do one thing one day and another thing another day, but
let her be free. That's what she finds joy in,
and that's what you ultimately are finding joy in.
And every time you try and top from the bottom, you rob her
joy. Yes, and and so stop it.
Stop it. Just stop it.
Yeah, I don't remember exactly what it was.
The other day I did something and I denied him and he was
like, you've been watching my Twitter.
Why yes, I have. Yeah, thank you for the idea.
And I have a whole list of plans for you.
Yes. Which you will obey.
No, it it's fun, it should be fun.
It should be playful, it should be no, you know, if, if you're
bumping up against the tension thing, then then somebody's off
track a little bit. But this topping from the bottom
is really common. And it, and it does, it robs
joy. It robs joy and freedom 'cause
that's what it robs is your freedom to make your own
choices. And that freedom is attached to
the joy that this lifestyle can bring.
So. And I wonder if it's harder for
Cox, who Like my husband, who they've been in the lifestyle or
cucks that have had previous cuckolding relationships and
they have someone newer like me. You know, that once they're
cuckoldress actually like gains her voice and knows, OK, this is
how I'm doing it. This is what I want and this is
how I'm going to play with my bulls.
And it might look different than what you thought playing with
her bulls might look like. Like you have to be OK with it.
Well, that's exactly right. And again, I think too many of
them are bringing in their own ideas from whatever they've seen
in porn. But here's here is the payoff
for you guys. I hope you're listening.
The joy that your wife has gotten from you embracing her
freedom and her sexuality, that comes back to you in spades when
if you're an alpha and you can see your wife gets to observe
you being subservient to her and a bull or however that plays out
for you. That sense of value and that
that deep affection that comes from having another human being
recognize this sort of shameful thing that you hold that I think
many cucks are, are ashamed because they have this
subservient thing when society tells them they need to be
strong and aggressive all the time.
You know, when you're loving partner can see you lay all that
down and be submissive to her or the bull or whoever.
However that's working out. Your addiction to your wife will
escalate about 10 points because it works both ways.
She's going to love and appreciate you more for letting
her be free. You will get the same thing.
On the flip side, B let it go. Stop trying to control and your
wife will observe you doing that and she'll love you even more.
Instead of shaming you, which is what you're most likely afraid
of, she's going to love you even more.
So try that on because that's now we're starting to get down
into where the goodies are in the cuckold life.
It's this profound intimacy that can come from it, but it goes
both ways. It's not just A1 sided thing.
Yes. What do you hope for the future
for you and your husband? How How would if you had your
ideal wish, how would your dynamic evolve over time and,
and or or just keep or just progressing in the way that it
is? So for the future, we don't have
a huge community out where I live for for cuckolding.
And so I've kind of been reaching out to some couples
that I've seen on social media recently to hopefully start a
group because I would love to have a community of like minded
people. I've gone to some events and
just being around people who you can fill your like fill your
complete self around. Also to like meet other bulls.
I found a couple local bulls that I like, but it would just
be nice to have that connection of other couples that are like
us too. And I feel like it would benefit
them and our community because I feel like this is such a
wonderful relationship. It is the best I've ever been
in. I just feel like more women
should explore it, you know, And I just would like to share that
with as many people as I can. You know, I have exactly the
same motivation. You know, I think our
relationship now is probably 10 or 20 times more intimate and
more joyful than the marriage I was in for many, many years.
And it is the consummate cake and eat it too lifestyle if you
do it correctly. And I think you shared a lot of
the Nuggets about how you start and and you're careful along the
way and you, you know, self correct when need be.
And those are all the steps that it takes.
But the joy and the intimacy and the connection that you get is
just unparalleled. And I agree with you totally.
We all, we have a very small community of like minded and I
feel that probably it's mostly going to be online because
they're not in our area. It'd be great if they were.
But staying in touch with the people that you resonate with,
however you need to do it. I think community is very, very
important because we can all share ideas, support each other,
have a group of people that can help you problem solve when you
need it. I think the men especially need
that. Women tend to make friendships a
lot easier and I think it's really good for the men to
connect with other men and say, man, I didn't know she was going
to put me in high heels. Yeah, I've noticed that with my
husband. Like when we've gone to
lifestyle events, like the first one we went to, he was like, Oh
my God, like look at all these people.
They look, they're just like when he started, he felt like,
you know, ashamed and like, why do I like this?
And then he was around all these other people that had the same
desires. And you would think you'd see
them at PTA meeting and you're like, Oh my gosh.
So now you walk around at school or at the grocery store
wondering, are they? Do you know, 'cause there's so
many people that are in the lifestyle, you just wouldn't
know. Yeah.
And I think, yeah, that's absolutely true.
They're they're everywhere. They're around us everywhere.
But a lot of this, I think, especially on the male parts,
has to do with coming to terms with their own shame.
And community can go a long way to helping you recognize that
you're not so you're not a weirdo, that you're not a
pervert. You know, there's lots of men
that have those ideas and those fantasies and they have
beautiful relationships with their wives and girlfriends.
And dealing with shame is is a big hump to get over.
But recognizing that it's there is like the first step.
So yeah, Abby, as we close out, let the listeners know where
they can find you. So you can find me on Twitter or
X as it's called. I don't know what to call it
anymore. Cuckoldress Abigail or a
cuckold? Just Abby.
And then also there's links on there for my only fans if you
want to check out some of my kinkier stuff.
Well, you've, you've really given us some great, great,
great food for thought here and I'm so glad that we got a chance
to chat and I hope we can do it again sometime soon.
Me too. So thank you so much for your
time. I appreciate you.
Yeah, thank you for having me on.
I had a great time.