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Hello, and welcome back to a 
better world. 

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This is your host Mitchell, J 
Raven and we're very glad you're

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joining us again today. 
Today, we're going to have 

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another very interesting show we
have with us. 

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Catherine, Ingram, who is the 
author of this book? 

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Passionate presence and 
Catherine goes around the world.

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Actually teaching, she conducts,
Dharma dialogues, wherever she 

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goes all over, Europe, Asia the 
United States and sits in a room

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and very, simply speaks. 
People about the nature of self 

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and the nature of being which is
what this book is about. 

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And I encourage you to get it 
and take a look at it for 

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yourselves and connect to the 
energy that's within it. 

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Hello Catherine. 
Hello Mitchell. 

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This is wonderful to see you. 
Good to have you. 

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So first of all, what is it that
everyone gets involved in sort 

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of a spiritual Endeavor, or 
path, for different reasons. 

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It may have some underlying 
Being similarity, but what was 

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it? 
Feel better. 

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Yeah. 
Right. 

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Hoping to get out of suffering. 
Yes, right? 

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Yeah. 
Is that what it was for you? 

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That was what it was for me. 
I would say it was, it was to 

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try to come to terms with the 
kind of suffering that I was 

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feeling in through my, you know,
young adulthood having had a 

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very difficult childhood and 
wanting to make sense of life 

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and of this world and raised 
within a particular. 

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Religious tradition. 
Not exactly. 

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No, my grandmother was Catholic,
but she died when I was seven. 

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And then my parents were really 
not very religious. 

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So I, when I was about 12, I 
Came Upon the notion of 

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agnosticism, which simply means 
don't know. 

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Sure. 
And that made a lot of sense to 

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me. 
So I thought for a while I was 

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an agnostic had a group that 
belong to. 

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Yes, I had her, I had a label 
and but it did. 

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Have much in the way of 
explanation of anything. 

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So I kept going, kept seeking, I
didn't ever really particularly 

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connect with Christianity as a 
form, and I began to study more 

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in the Asian traditions in my 
later, teens having read be 

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here. 
Now, by Ram Dass and I was very,

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I was very influenced by that, 
and he had more of many were. 

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Yeah, and sold a million copies,
and I did end of be here. 

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Now, there was a book Just 
suggested reading list that he 

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had put together, and I went out
and got every single book on 

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that book list, really, and read
most of them. 

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Some of them didn't quite click,
but I read almost all of them. 

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So, and that launched me into 
this whole again seeking a more 

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of a teacher to, to Really train
with, which a process that 

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eventually led me to naropa 
Institute in 1974, where Host 

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of, you know, credible roster of
teachers where there and I met 

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my first teacher, about their 
Buddhist teacher, began 

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practicing Buddhist Meditation 
which I did for 17 years and 

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helped start a center and helped
set up Retreats around the world

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in the Vasa training. 
Yes. 

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And teacher was Joseph, that was
Joseph Goldstein. 

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Wonderful, wonderful teacher. 
Yes, the bush order we. 

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All right, and then after a long
time of practice, though, I came

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to a point of discontent, And 
things weren't really, again, 

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weren't making sense in a way 
and practice began to Fall Away 

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the notion of practice began to 
fall away. 

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But for a while I gather that it
provided you with some sense of 

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meaning. 
Yes, some sense of purpose, 

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immunity Ernie connectedness, 
yes to community. 

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But also to life itself. 
Yes, it's so very much so it was

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definitely a rich and And 
beautiful time, those many, many

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years of being with my Buddhist 
crowd, and training and 

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wonderful, places often in Asia,
just living a life in which we 

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considered these things on a 
daily basis and often were in 

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Deep Quiet Retreat. 
So that was, that was wonderful.

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But then the context though, was
there, a sense of direction of 

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it. 
Relative to the idea of samadhi 

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or Nirvana or yes, everyone 
weakening. 

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There was a there was definitely
an emphasis on progressing on 

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the path. 
Yes. 

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And this became more and more 
problematic for me and yet 

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within it. 
And within the teachings of, you

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know, Buddhist Traditions. 
There's this idea that wakeful 

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mind is with us all the time. 
Yes. 

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It's a paradox. 
It's like right. 

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Nowhere to go. 
Nowhere to progress. 

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In fact, right? 
It, which is much more appealing

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to me. 
Yes, I gather that's why I was 

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just outlining this. 
Yes. 

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And so within the structure 
itself, emits a strange thing to

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say because we are the living 
teaching anyway so it's not. 

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There isn't some kind of church.
You go to and belong to its 

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yourself. 
Yeah. 

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So called within the discipline.
Yes. 

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That's right. 
Yeah. 

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But within whatever Community 
you were in, I'm gathering. 

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You did not connect to that idea
of this is it? 

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Well, I didn't that wasn't so 
much emphasized. 

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Actually, you know that we were 
very much in a progressive. 

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You know, you keep practicing. 
Keep practicing, certain things 

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will certain - mind stays will 
eventually fall away. 

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Well, they weren't falling away.
I mean fact, the more that I 

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looked at them, the worst they 
seem to be because I could see, 

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they were so clear. 
All right. 

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Exactly, there was no 
distraction from them. 

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So so I became very discouraged 
and kind of all notion of 

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spiritual practice, just fell 
away, and it began to look like 

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my father had always said like a
big waste of time. 

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So unfortunately I was unfit for
the world at this point. 

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I mean, I really didn't feel 
that, I could just go out and 

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just try to, you know, play the 
power game or the money game. 

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Or the romance game, or whatever
happened to be? 

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It was this though. 
I had just seen too much and I 

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fell into depression and, you 
know, during this period, if I 

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went into a grocery store and 
there were just normal people 

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about in that, which they're 
usually would be, you know, in 

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Marin County where I was living 
at the time, I couldn't be in 

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there. 45 minutes, I would have 
to just leave without the 

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groceries. 
I just felt like an alien in 

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this world. 
Because the Dharma had been my 

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life and now that wasn't so much
you know, appealing to me or I 

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wasn't connected to whatever I 
had known and I didn't feel that

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I fit in the in the ordinary 
kind of endangered the 

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day-to-day. 
The, you know, the progressive 

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game of get more, have more, be 
more. 

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Be somebody all those things. 
I wasn't had no interest in that

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either. 
So we're to progressed along the

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path. 
I had. 

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I was I had deconstructed so 
much some part of me eating, 

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right? 
And some part of me knew that I 

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was not going to be relaxed and 
any of those games because they 

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all looked very temporary and 
fraught with, you know, all 

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kinds of problems. 
So at this point, I then began. 

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Well, after this two-year 
depression, there was an 

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openness You know, I think 
depression can lead you either 

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into madness or into into a 
whole radical shift and there 

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was this openness and I began to
hear about a teacher, an Indian 

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named bujji very unusual. 
Indian teacher, who really was 

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just offering his own direct 
life experience, really without 

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a teaching per se But what his 
message was was that there's 

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nothing to seek and nothing to 
do and nothing to get and really

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just relax into this sweet taste
of true self or true nature, 

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relax into it. 
The route relax into what is 

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right now here with no 
improvement and When I went and 

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met him and said in front of 
him, his confidence in that 

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relaxed. 
Sense of presence was 

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contagious. 
He'd been had been relaxed like 

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that a really long time so it 
was very it was just contagious 

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the the certainty that he had 
and the way that it exuded in 

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everything he said and did and 
that was the turning point out 

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of this depression and into 
really I would call the 

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mystical, the truly mystical 
experience of life, where you 

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are, sitting comfortably in your
own skin, in your own self and 

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you're feeling a connectedness 
to all that. 

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You feel, you feel in sitting 
here right now, a connection to 

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your own self self on to self, 
he used to call it, not Mitchell

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and Catherine so much, but sell 
fun to self even though Mitchell

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and Catherine are honored. 
And And coexist and coexisting 

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in our conversation conversation
but that really, it's the 

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underlying feeling of being and 
belonging which you feel more 

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strongly when you're sitting in 
the center of your being. 

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And that's where you're hanging 
out. 

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And that's what then you begin 
to feel. 

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And notice in every other thing,
even if you're looking in the 

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eyes of reptiles, you see it 
there shining, you know, and in 

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anything it's active, or So many
people, but often people might 

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feel a kind of alienness, you 
know, that would be a typical 

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natural response of biological 
response. 

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Your biology will tell you 
probably to run away but in 

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fact, another and that might be 
appropriate in many cases but 

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another another coexisting 
awareness can be going on which 

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doesn't see any Alienness 
necessarily but sensing being 

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yes, sensing being exactly right
and sensing being animals 

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interestingly are an incredible 
expression? 

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Yes, not beautiful. 
Russian Russian. 

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Yes, yes. 
Because what do they do? 

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And they're hanging out. 
Yes. 

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Well, like I said the other 
night at, yeah, session. 

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You know, that the quote I had 
started the thing with was I 

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hoped someday to become the 
person my dog thinks I am. 

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And I was pointing out that 
maybe the dog is actually seeing

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the real. 
You, you know, right now, not 

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someday but actually now 
relating to that, which is just 

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here. 
As far as we know, right, that 

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dog just does not have a mind 
full of thoughts and, you know, 

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plans? 
Yeah, and he's not doing a whole

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one up. 
One down judging thing, and all 

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the things that we that we do 
that. 

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Give us a feeling of separation.
Ocean with each other. 

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So this perspective really 
bypasses. 

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That sense whereby you're much 
more interested in feeling 

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family like with someone rather 
than proving to that person. 

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Something about yourself or 
trying to get that person to 

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prove something about themselves
to you. 

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It is so simple. 
Yes, it's so right here, yes, 

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right. 
And I remember Tropa, since we 

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were talking about some of this 
before in his cutting through 

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spiritual materialism which for 
me remains at Major classic, you

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know. 
Yeah. 

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Speaking about the whole idea of
spiritual credentials. 

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Yes. 
And one of the things Catherine 

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that I gather in your speaking 
and writing is that that just 

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utterly completely Flies out the
window, where it belongs. 

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You know, there's no such thing 
as that. 

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There's only being and your your
relationship to it. 

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Yes. 
Right. 

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Will act point out in the book 
and passionate presents. 

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I outlined seven qualities. 
That emerge naturally. 

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When one on when one is sitting 
in this presence and they're 

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very simple qualities, that we 
all already know in our hearts. 

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Could you spell those outfits? 
They are tenderness, you know, 

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we don't everyone understands 
what tenderness means 

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discernment, the, the awareness 
becomes sharper because you're 

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not constantly on some Personal 
Agenda that has to be gotten for

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you, right embodiment, which is 
the recognition that you live in

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an environment. 
In an ecosystem, you're an 

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embedded part of that ecosystem.
You have a body. 

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There's a material reality and 
Feet are on this Earth and as I 

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say in the book there may be 
some Divinity somewhere else 

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possibly but the only one we're 
going to know is through this 

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body and on this Earth. 
Genuineness or authenticity 

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genuineness being the the 
expression of your naturalness 

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again, without having to do a 
big presentation and we love 

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being with people who are 
genuine, right? 

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I know I do even if even if 
they're Wilder crazier, foolish 

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or whatever it is, if they're in
their authenticity, there's this

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they get a pass. 
Silence. 

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The the quality of Silence, 
which is the Silence of the 

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heart, which is the place that 
is never spoken in any of us 

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that deep. 
Well, of silence is one of the 

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things one comes into touch 
within this passionate presence.

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It's there, as a quality, you 
can almost feel it. 

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Delight. 
Quality of delight which is the 

228
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current of joy that if you admit
it, you feel, right? 

229
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I mean, usually, people are busy
reciting their problems. 

230
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But underneath everybody loves 
to be, they still want to be 

231
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almost everybody. 
Very few people commit suicide. 

232
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But almost everybody's when 
faced with not the litany. 

233
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Yes, we're faced with not being 
at all. 

234
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They really like being. 
And if they'll just admit that I

235
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do, Sooner than being faced with
not being, then being faced with

236
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death, they would be in touch 
with this joy. 

237
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That is there's really 
ever-present and I don't mean a 

238
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kind of giddy silly pollyannish 
thing. 

239
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I mean, just a current of 
well-being that is saying oh 

240
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yeah, it's good to be alive. 
Quality of wonder wonder which 

241
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set knows that we live in a 
mystery and that the appropriate

242
00:16:27,700 --> 00:16:31,400
response to mystery is all and 
wonder and that gives a 

243
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freshness to our lives. 
It gives us a sense of Innocence

244
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it allows us to be to live with 
beginner's mind as Suzuki roshi,

245
00:16:42,500 --> 00:16:46,400
put it Let's see. 
I don't know if I've left any 

246
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:51,100
out. 
Is that seven? 

247
00:16:51,100 --> 00:16:57,600
It might have been could I add 
one? 

248
00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,200
Yes, add beauty beauty is what 
actually would say, maybe that's

249
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been woven in a bit. 
I have a section in the, in the 

250
00:17:05,900 --> 00:17:10,300
Delight chapter, in fact. 
Yeah, called pervasive Beauty a 

251
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subsection called pervasive 
Beauty and it is absolutely an 

252
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important aspect. 
And this sense of beauty, when 

253
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you say pervasive what it 
implies is that it's a shift in,

254
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it's a shift in the perception, 
it's a shift in the perceiver, 

255
00:17:31,300 --> 00:17:33,200
rather. 
Right? 

256
00:17:33,900 --> 00:17:37,400
So that yeah, for instance, I'll
tell a story, a quick ways. 

257
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:43,100
When I first went to be with 
pooja-ji in India, he lived in a

258
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very he's dead. 
Now he lived in a very polluted 

259
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,600
Town terribly polluted. 
Such that the air was just dark 

260
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with we're in India, in Lucknow 
India and I'm nondescript town 

261
00:17:55,700 --> 00:17:59,000
except that it was very polluted
and he was there and he was 

262
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:03,900
there. 
And outside of his home, there 

263
00:18:03,900 --> 00:18:08,800
was this mound of garbage, 
covered, with warthogs, hairy 

264
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:13,500
wart hogs, large ones, eating 
the garbage and you know, you're

265
00:18:13,500 --> 00:18:18,700
in this darkened, polluted 
atmosphere and your The snorts 

266
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of these warthogs growing over 
garbage. 

267
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I mean, it was like a vision of 
hell, you know, and at first 

268
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,100
when I went to it, yes, it was. 
And I first, when I went there, 

269
00:18:27,100 --> 00:18:30,200
I almost felt nauseous, you 
know, just looking at all this 

270
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,600
stuff and smelling it. 
And after I had gone there and I

271
00:18:34,608 --> 00:18:38,800
was interviewing him the first 
week I was there after our first

272
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:43,000
two hour session of one-on-one 
interview, I walked out of his 

273
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:48,200
place and the world looked 
different and the Hogs looked 

274
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:49,900
beautiful. 
And I was thinking about 

275
00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:51,700
warthogs. 
Look, really beautiful to each 

276
00:18:51,700 --> 00:18:54,800
other. 
A bit of male warthog, great to 

277
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,000
have a female Ward honking and 
the fact that they were eating 

278
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,600
the garbage was, no problem. 
I was happy for them that they 

279
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:06,400
had the garbage there to eat and
it had all lightened up in a 

280
00:19:06,408 --> 00:19:10,500
very strong way. 
Again, it was this sense of 

281
00:19:10,500 --> 00:19:13,900
instead of a resistance and 
feeling things as alien, it was 

282
00:19:13,900 --> 00:19:18,100
a sense of feeling it, as one's 
own, you know, just Yes. 

283
00:19:18,100 --> 00:19:20,700
It all just felt an extended 
sense of being. 

284
00:19:20,700 --> 00:19:25,000
So, in this way, I speak about 
pervasive Beauty in the book 

285
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:29,700
that it's a shift in the 
perceiver, right? 

286
00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:35,400
What a great and graphic story 
because if you could shift that 

287
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,200
much rather do something great 
was going. 

288
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,400
Yeah, it's, well, there was 
something great going on in that

289
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:45,300
room. 
Yes, that's right. 

290
00:19:45,308 --> 00:19:50,500
Pervasive mean, I think a human 
Naturally tends toward the 

291
00:19:50,500 --> 00:19:53,900
appreciation of and being 
ensconced in ut. 

292
00:19:53,900 --> 00:19:56,700
Yes. 
And when he or she wakes up a 

293
00:19:56,700 --> 00:19:59,600
bit to the order of things. 
Yes. 

294
00:20:00,300 --> 00:20:04,200
You know, the beautiful natural 
order and I'll tell you, I, 

295
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,600
maybe there's even a knife, you 
don't mind if I make a 

296
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:14,600
recommendation co-author, a book
and a few more humor. 

297
00:20:15,100 --> 00:20:19,200
Yes, you know, when I know when 
I More wakeful. 

298
00:20:19,300 --> 00:20:26,400
Yes, I see the inherent humor in
the whole set up both the human 

299
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,500
and the ordinary natural world. 
Yes, absolutely. 

300
00:20:29,500 --> 00:20:32,500
It's just great comic relief for
everyone. 

301
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,900
Yes, yes. 
And you you do you become much 

302
00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:40,600
more childlike. 
Not childish, but childlike in 

303
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,000
that understanding and things 
are, you know, funny or now, it 

304
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,100
is not. 
To deny the suffering of the 

305
00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:50,300
world at all. 
There is tremendous suffering in

306
00:20:50,300 --> 00:20:53,700
this world. 
And, you know, if you if you if 

307
00:20:53,700 --> 00:20:55,700
you're not noticing it, you're 
not paying attention. 

308
00:20:57,300 --> 00:20:58,400
Yes. 
Yes. 

309
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:03,100
And so to hold all of that and 
let it let it wash through as 

310
00:21:03,100 --> 00:21:05,500
the play of existence to know 
that. 

311
00:21:05,500 --> 00:21:07,800
Yes, it hurts to lose the loved 
ones. 

312
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,600
Yes. 
It hurts to see the cruelty of 

313
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,900
humans with themselves and every
other creature on earth. 

314
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:16,500
Yes. 
All of that. 

315
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,900
Breaks one's heart over and over
again. 

316
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,000
You know, to the degree, you let
that in and wash through is the 

317
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,700
same degree that you can feel 
the joy as well. 

318
00:21:28,100 --> 00:21:30,800
If you're blocking it out on one
end, you're not going to feel it

319
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,600
on the other. 
And you can play it safe and 

320
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,000
wear your armor, and not feel 
much at all. 

321
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,300
And be just kind of like in some
neutral ground or insulated 

322
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:42,400
insulated. 
Somehow. 

323
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,400
Yes, you can insulate just or be
an ostrich, but if you want to 

324
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,600
really play it in a rich way. 
Yes. 

325
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,700
And have you need a courageous 
heart to do it because you feel 

326
00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:54,500
a lot. 
Yes. 

327
00:21:54,500 --> 00:21:59,700
You feel so much then you're on 
this big spectrum of feeling the

328
00:21:59,700 --> 00:22:03,900
intensity of the Suffering. 
The Of the joy tears. 

329
00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:08,700
Come easily and and quickly 
passed quickly, that's a 

330
00:22:08,700 --> 00:22:11,200
function of authenticity and 
genuineness. 

331
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,600
Yes, absolutely. 
Yes it is. 

332
00:22:13,900 --> 00:22:17,200
You Catherine have very 
beautifully segue into the next 

333
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:21,100
question that I really wanted to
bring up here to you, which is 

334
00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:23,800
what is the relationship? 
And it's funny because I know 

335
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,500
you've been a social activist in
many ways in your life. 

336
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,200
Now that you are doing what 
you're doing, doing the doorman,

337
00:22:32,300 --> 00:22:34,900
Logs and all and I had such a 
wonderful time with you that 

338
00:22:34,900 --> 00:22:38,400
night at Tibet House. 
It's just very beautiful. 

339
00:22:39,300 --> 00:22:43,600
Thank you. 
And also rich with humor so I 

340
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:49,700
thank you. 
There is so much suffering and 

341
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,200
I'd like to kind of just frame 
it if I could in this way. 

342
00:22:54,200 --> 00:23:01,100
We live next door to each other 
and the person next door is very

343
00:23:01,100 --> 00:23:04,900
loud and vexatious. 
Yes, and pollutes. 

344
00:23:04,900 --> 00:23:12,200
The water that is then going 
into my home and fouls, the air 

345
00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:17,400
and and disrupts the soil. 
So my my tomato plants can't 

346
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:23,800
grow properly have the right. 
Sweet taste, and insured. 

347
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:30,000
My life is now experiencing the 
suffering because it happens 

348
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,300
that my neighbor is going 
through this himself because of 

349
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,500
the tortured - that's a of his 
own mind, right? 

350
00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:39,500
Yes. 
And yet I'm going to expand that

351
00:23:39,500 --> 00:23:42,100
micro picture to the macro. 
Yes. 

352
00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:44,500
And so we have a planet that's 
very beautiful. 

353
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:49,600
Yeah that we love and are as you
so beautifully put we are our 

354
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,300
planet. 
We are our world and yet we see 

355
00:23:53,300 --> 00:23:56,100
elements. 
It's others destroying it. 

356
00:23:56,100 --> 00:23:58,200
Literally destroying the 
ecosystem. 

357
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,100
Not to mention other humans and 
other sentient beings. 

358
00:24:01,900 --> 00:24:07,600
What is the role of someone who 
is more awake in handling 

359
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,600
dealing with that reality? 
Yeah, well, I mean one element 

360
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:17,100
of it is to see the way in which
we also collude that each of Our

361
00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:20,500
Lives is got an Eco price tag on
it as well. 

362
00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:23,800
And to be very Vigilant about 
tread. 

363
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:28,100
As Lively as possible. 
Even though living in frankly, 

364
00:24:28,100 --> 00:24:31,300
Living in America, it's very 
difficult to not be using 

365
00:24:31,300 --> 00:24:33,900
resources that a 
disproportionate way to the rest

366
00:24:33,900 --> 00:24:37,800
of the world. 
But, but we can, at least have 

367
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:42,300
it in our awareness and try our 
best to model as Gandhi. 

368
00:24:42,300 --> 00:24:44,800
Put it model the change. 
You want to see be the change, 

369
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,000
you want to see? 
So that's the first part. 

370
00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:51,400
And the second part I would say 
is that we have to come from 

371
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,900
understanding first. 
You know, you couldn't, you're 

372
00:24:55,900 --> 00:24:59,000
only going to have an appeal to 
somebody who you perceive to be 

373
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,500
in ignorance. 
If you have some understanding 

374
00:25:02,500 --> 00:25:05,900
of the person and have some way 
of conversing with the person, 

375
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,100
you can't do it just by 
violence. 

376
00:25:08,500 --> 00:25:10,700
You can't just beat them into 
submission. 

377
00:25:10,700 --> 00:25:12,000
It. 
We don't live in a world where 

378
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,200
that's any longer possible as 
we're seeing. 

379
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:20,700
So clearly on the political 
stage so this is It's a gandhian

380
00:25:20,700 --> 00:25:25,000
principle and it it works for 
the most Or it may not always 

381
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,400
perfectly work. 
But for the most part, it works 

382
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,000
that if I come to you as a 
friend and I appeal to you as a 

383
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,200
friend first with understanding,
you're going to be a lot more 

384
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,100
likely to listen to what I have 
to say. 

385
00:25:41,500 --> 00:25:44,600
That's right, there's a human 
heart inside. 

386
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,500
Yes, everyone! 
Yes, exactly, yes. 

387
00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:50,700
And there may be times when you 
just simply have to stop someone

388
00:25:50,700 --> 00:25:53,800
by any means possible. 
Yeah there may be those times. 

389
00:25:53,900 --> 00:25:59,000
But it's good to have exhausted,
all of the other gentle ways. 

390
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:04,000
First and just in terms of you 
know, just out with it, like, 

391
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,300
really political activism in one
way or another. 

392
00:26:08,300 --> 00:26:11,600
Yeah, and it could be that the 
pen is stronger than the sword. 

393
00:26:11,700 --> 00:26:15,400
It could be any number of ways. 
These things that in your heart 

394
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,800
and your experience really have 
value. 

395
00:26:17,900 --> 00:26:21,200
Absolutely make a contribution. 
Oh yes, very definitely. 

396
00:26:21,500 --> 00:26:24,800
And especially if if they can be
informed, This understanding 

397
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,600
that we're speaking about here. 
Yes. 

398
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,500
Yes, then they're very 
effective. 

399
00:26:29,900 --> 00:26:31,400
Yeah. 
That's it's very good to hear 

400
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:37,100
because as we know, so many 
people on a spiritual path as 

401
00:26:37,100 --> 00:26:41,300
its called, yeah, you know, feel
that they can sort of deny the 

402
00:26:41,300 --> 00:26:45,100
world and material existence in 
exchange for some kind of divine

403
00:26:45,100 --> 00:26:48,300
experience. 
That puts all of this away, 

404
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,600
right? 
And yet this is our world as you

405
00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:52,600
one of your points of 
embodiment. 

406
00:26:52,700 --> 00:26:54,600
Yes, we're embodied. 
Let's use it. 

407
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,800
Enjoy yes. 
And honored and respected 

408
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,700
talking about honoring and 
respecting. 

409
00:27:00,700 --> 00:27:04,100
I want to just thank you. 
Thanks so much pleasure. 

410
00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:07,000
Good to have you here. 
You're doing beautiful work and 

411
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,500
I just want to help support that
travels around and you as well. 

412
00:27:11,500 --> 00:27:13,300
You're doing very beautiful 
work. 

413
00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:19,500
So much Wow, I hope you're awake
and in turn on. 

414
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,900
As I am, this was very 
beautiful. 

415
00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:24,500
Well, my name is Mitchell. 
J Raven. 

416
00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:27,200
Thanks so much for joining us 
and I look forward to seeing you

417
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:28,600
all next week.