1 00:00:33,100 --> 00:00:35,700 Hello, and welcome back to a better world. 2 00:00:35,700 --> 00:00:38,200 This is your host Mitchell J Raven, and we're very glad 3 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:43,100 you're - again today today we are with the author of this 4 00:00:43,100 --> 00:00:45,900 book, you can change the world dr. 5 00:00:45,900 --> 00:00:50,400 Ervin Laszlo. He is hungarian-born and is 6 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,100 internationally known for his work in systems theory. 7 00:00:53,100 --> 00:00:57,700 He's written many many books. Dozens in fact, he has consulted 8 00:00:57,700 --> 00:01:00,700 to government's prime, minister's United Nations 9 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,000 everywhere. There are troubles where people 10 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,800 need to see straighter and understand more from a systemic 11 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,500 point of view. You what it is that's going on 12 00:01:10,700 --> 00:01:14,800 well this has led him to a very in-depth study of the 13 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,300 environment and social systems and that is very much the 14 00:01:18,300 --> 00:01:24,500 subject of this book as well as an idea and a prompting of what 15 00:01:24,500 --> 00:01:29,400 we as individuals we down on the ground can do to make this world 16 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:33,100 a better place and in fact, not just a better place but quickly, 17 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,000 so we're very glad to have you as a guest today, dr. 18 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,200 Les looks very nice to be here. Good. 19 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,800 Good. Have you so I know what inspired 20 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:45,300 the book because of your deep feeling about what's going on on 21 00:01:45,300 --> 00:01:48,200 this planet. What are some of the statistics? 22 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,800 I think that could help to awaken people a bit. 23 00:01:50,900 --> 00:01:54,500 One of the actual statistics of where we are sitting on the 24 00:01:54,500 --> 00:01:58,300 precipice today of, really environmental and social 25 00:01:58,300 --> 00:02:02,300 collapse. Well, on the one hand, we have 26 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:07,000 social and economic division in the world, which is not 27 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,400 sustainable, because more and more people are being pressed 28 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:15,300 into really abject poverty. We now estimate that about half 29 00:02:15,300 --> 00:02:19,900 of the world's population, just about 3 billion people living on 30 00:02:19,900 --> 00:02:23,500 less than five dollars a day and about one and a half billion 31 00:02:23,500 --> 00:02:25,900 perhaps on bond dollars. But these are statistics, are 32 00:02:25,908 --> 00:02:28,700 not very reliable. It will be very much more also 33 00:02:28,700 --> 00:02:33,600 and perhaps It's even less but likely to be optimistic at this 34 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:38,100 point. So the spread of inequality in 35 00:02:38,100 --> 00:02:40,800 the world is enormous and of course it's highly visible 36 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,800 because Wells and power is distributed is all over the 37 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:49,000 world, it's just not distributed evenly but it spread everywhere, 38 00:02:49,100 --> 00:02:51,300 right? So on the one hand, you have 39 00:02:51,300 --> 00:02:56,200 this enormous problems of how people have access to resources 40 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:01,600 and have access to wills and can live If I just survived a 41 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,900 vegetated, what do you Economist say about this? 42 00:03:04,900 --> 00:03:09,200 I mean they see the disparity and they're spinning off 43 00:03:09,300 --> 00:03:13,300 theories of world growth and the like all day long. 44 00:03:13,300 --> 00:03:17,800 I mean is there not any consensus among them that 45 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:23,500 suggests that the so-called global market system as is isn't 46 00:03:23,500 --> 00:03:27,100 really functional. Well depends on whom you ask it 47 00:03:27,100 --> 00:03:32,500 is of course economists Of the classical schools even called 48 00:03:32,500 --> 00:03:35,900 neoclassical economics, would trust to the market system. 49 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,600 Sometimes call this is Market fundamentalism in believe that 50 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:45,500 the market system will cure all ills, eventually it will spread 51 00:03:45,500 --> 00:03:48,700 the wealth and everybody will be better off. 52 00:03:49,100 --> 00:03:50,900 All you have to do is play the market. 53 00:03:51,300 --> 00:03:54,700 Now, other people point out that the market system, the market 54 00:03:54,700 --> 00:03:58,700 itself Works. What's Works only when what, 55 00:03:58,700 --> 00:04:03,000 what is known as the Playing field is level or in other 56 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,400 words, everybody has the same chances more or less than turn 57 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,100 on the market. When some people to use a mix 58 00:04:09,100 --> 00:04:11,600 similar have owned all the chips, and you have others are 59 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,700 very few than those who have the great majority of the chips. 60 00:04:15,700 --> 00:04:18,600 When they play the market, they are likely to end up the winners 61 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,400 much more so than the others. So the rich get richer and the 62 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,300 poor get children. And that is still my mother 63 00:04:25,300 --> 00:04:29,300 raised me on that phrase. Yeah, that is still the case by 64 00:04:29,300 --> 00:04:32,600 a large The world. And the hope is a Pious, hope 65 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,200 that if you just become wealthier eventually, we also 66 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,600 will trickle down but it doesn't recall for a number of reasons. 67 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,700 Also, because poverty is self-reproducing. 68 00:04:44,500 --> 00:04:47,900 It's a lot of people are logged into a vicious cycle, right? 69 00:04:47,900 --> 00:04:51,100 I don't have access to any resources, they can't help 70 00:04:51,100 --> 00:04:54,400 themselves, and they just try to survive from day to day. 71 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,500 Of course, the over overwhelming, also their 72 00:04:57,500 --> 00:05:01,800 immediate environment before us Testing the citizens is Giants, 73 00:05:02,100 --> 00:05:08,300 citizen the third world and over overloading the carrying 74 00:05:08,300 --> 00:05:12,000 capacity of the lens. Also, polluting a great deal. 75 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,600 It's not their fault and this is just happening because there's 76 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,200 alternative of course, they pollute per capita per person, 77 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,200 lost less than than the rich people. 78 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,600 Also called rich people. Nice bathroom still. 79 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:29,700 As long as we have 20% of the world's population having 86%. 80 00:05:29,900 --> 00:05:34,400 Of the consumption is right now just to go back to the 81 00:05:34,700 --> 00:05:39,200 economists view for a second economics is considered a social 82 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:44,500 science and based on what you just shared with us, it shows 83 00:05:44,500 --> 00:05:49,500 that the current systems as they're operating Ardis up 84 00:05:49,500 --> 00:05:53,300 functional, they're not working. And so from a scientific basis 85 00:05:53,300 --> 00:05:57,000 they've actually got the evidence of the dysfunction. 86 00:05:58,300 --> 00:06:02,000 So we've gone from Theory, a free market Enterprise, and 87 00:06:02,100 --> 00:06:06,800 maybe slight regulations, or, or if playing field, flat, and even 88 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:11,400 to this, current state of affairs isn't this enough and 89 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:17,500 ample evidence to to show to disprove the validity of those 90 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,700 theories? Not really, you know, because as 91 00:06:20,700 --> 00:06:24,000 the saying goes, statistics can be made to support anything. 92 00:06:24,300 --> 00:06:29,300 Especially statisticians, as they say that the flex is that 93 00:06:29,300 --> 00:06:33,600 you Play around with numbers, you can show that education is 94 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:38,300 making inroads that actually. People are spending more are 95 00:06:38,300 --> 00:06:41,100 saving more. They are all kinds of ways you 96 00:06:41,100 --> 00:06:44,000 can package this. I see but the fact you can find 97 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,100 the silver lining. Yes. 98 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,500 Even acquisition regulation is growing you see now if it 99 00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:51,900 wouldn't be growing there would be a lot different kind of a 100 00:06:51,900 --> 00:06:54,800 ballgame. You could probably then hope 101 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,600 that gradually as higher levels of Education coming hyah laughs 102 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,400 hyah life. Of styles and quality of life 103 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,600 will come about. But as it is is growing and the 104 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,200 growth occurs primarily in the poor parts of the world is still 105 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,500 growing near not quite but near 90 million persons a year and 106 00:07:14,500 --> 00:07:18,200 edits to the world population. That's quite a quite a size 107 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:23,000 efforts relative to world population control having any 108 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,800 kind of measurable effect, classic remotes of controls 109 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:31,000 don't work and they are very arbitrary and Very dictatorial, 110 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,600 telling people that they can't have more than the number of 111 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,600 children are trying to sterilize people, Etc, don't simply don't 112 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,400 work. The only way that can work is by 113 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,700 raising the level of Education of people raising Social 114 00:07:44,700 --> 00:07:47,400 Security. So that for example families 115 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,700 will not be needing large numbers of Offspring in their 116 00:07:50,700 --> 00:07:54,900 old age, to support them or not believing even during their they 117 00:07:54,900 --> 00:08:00,800 are adults life to support them by working on the Undefined, you 118 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:07,400 know, so all these kind of persons are actually producing 119 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:12,200 an effect the backlash. So that's right now we can 120 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:16,100 expect that poverty is research, regenerating cells are 121 00:08:16,100 --> 00:08:19,200 generating to scientist. NE you just simply don't reach 122 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,400 the poorest segment and there are exceptions. 123 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,500 Of course they are. We means of ways and means of 124 00:08:24,500 --> 00:08:28,400 reaching the poor populations. The best example for that is. 125 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:33,600 So so called micro When people who don't qualify for any kind 126 00:08:33,700 --> 00:08:36,500 okay I guess I can still get an amounts. 127 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:41,700 You know, 70 80, 100 $120, a whole group is usually 128 00:08:41,700 --> 00:08:44,500 designated as being responsible for each other. 129 00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:48,200 So they don't offer any guarantee any collateral but 130 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,600 they have each other's word do something. 131 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,600 And these people then buy a cow set up a little stand on the 132 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,600 street do something, you know, that we have an idea by a 133 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,600 screenshot Act. Fatigue of some sort engage in 134 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:05,000 some kind of economic activity. And if success of this movement 135 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:09,000 has been phenomenal, the repayment rate is higher, and 136 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,400 the micro credits, than in the commercial credits by the 137 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,700 batteries. So it shows if you trust people 138 00:09:14,700 --> 00:09:18,700 to do something to say, pull themselves up by the bootstraps, 139 00:09:18,900 --> 00:09:23,000 if you give them, the means they will do so and you don't operate 140 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,400 on the Standard Market System. Basically, you have to start the 141 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,200 process. Yes, exactly. 142 00:09:28,300 --> 00:09:30,800 Exactly. Now From an environmental point 143 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,500 of view. What do you see and what can we 144 00:09:33,500 --> 00:09:36,800 do? Well, and environmentally be 145 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:41,700 know that the carrying capacity of the planet, in terms of its 146 00:09:41,700 --> 00:09:47,300 biological productivity, terms of the lens and the fisheries. 147 00:09:47,300 --> 00:09:52,300 And then, the sees all these what is being produced on the 148 00:09:52,300 --> 00:09:57,400 planet is being over. Loaded, you know, verse we take 149 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,400 out more from the planet than it can regenerate. 150 00:09:59,700 --> 00:10:04,500 Rate, the exact figures are available in the sense that we 151 00:10:04,500 --> 00:10:07,700 know what the so called. Ecological footprint. 152 00:10:07,700 --> 00:10:12,800 Yes, of an individual should be 2 point 2 hectares per person if 153 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:18,800 people would not consume more than the produce of 2.2 ha from 154 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,500 the productivity or years right here. 155 00:10:21,500 --> 00:10:23,100 Yeah. And that's why they would be 156 00:10:23,100 --> 00:10:26,400 relying the productivity of that area, you know? 157 00:10:27,100 --> 00:10:32,000 And then add the This productivity could regenerate so 158 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,100 that year after year, people could draw on this much 159 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,300 biological resources and that's based on the total world 160 00:10:38,300 --> 00:10:40,400 population is that's the population. 161 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,800 Diversity, get the total productivity of the earth and 162 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,700 divided by the total population. Then you get the per person per 163 00:10:46,700 --> 00:10:48,800 capita how much you can use, you know. 164 00:10:49,300 --> 00:10:54,100 Now it turns out that the average is 2.8 ha insert 2.2 165 00:10:54,400 --> 00:11:02,000 almost a third higher and the over The over charged the 166 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:07,200 grizzly could overshoot, right? Is debt is much greater there 167 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,100 would appear because we only get to this. 168 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,900 Seemingly, they still still an overshoot but still similar. 169 00:11:13,900 --> 00:11:17,600 Your mother's figure of 2.8 hectares per person because 170 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:19,400 people the poor countries are on the Run. 171 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,800 Ha Bangladesh is a half a hectare so that we can have in 172 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,400 the US the average footprint be 12 and a half dollars in Sweden, 173 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:33,400 being 6 hectares in I'm going to eat ha and Japan, Etc, similar. 174 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,600 So the average is out to fairly low. 175 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:43,400 But clearly you have at least six times of the of the use of 176 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,400 the biological resources, the planet in the so-called rich 177 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,300 countries, then what would be sustainable? 178 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:55,000 So, what since its this is real, this isn't like having your hand 179 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,800 on the manufacturer in the printing, press for money and 180 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,700 dealing with dead. In that way, this is actual 181 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:07,000 material that sustains life or no longer sustains life. 182 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,900 How long can this out of proportion scenario last before? 183 00:12:11,900 --> 00:12:18,300 There's an actual dive? Nobody knows you see there in 184 00:12:18,300 --> 00:12:20,300 the in it. Be mathematically figured to 185 00:12:20,300 --> 00:12:22,400 some stance. No, even mathematically. 186 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,700 Cannot be figured because we can't that working 187 00:12:25,700 --> 00:12:28,800 probabilities. These systems are not 188 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,800 deterministic and not mechanical. 189 00:12:31,100 --> 00:12:34,500 We don't know when it reaches the so-called Tipping Point, the 190 00:12:34,500 --> 00:12:39,000 point of collapse, we know that is bound to reach it but how 191 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,500 just how soon we don't know. Because we don't know when a 192 00:12:42,500 --> 00:12:49,600 relatively piecemeal wave of Change is Going to shift into 193 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:54,400 so-called abrupt mode, but if you hold all variables constant 194 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:59,100 based on today's proportions. You could make, you know, 195 00:12:59,100 --> 00:13:02,800 granted it's it's not a real number, but it would at least 196 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,500 give some indications and putting aside a moment, the 197 00:13:06,500 --> 00:13:11,800 abrupt, you know, precipitous reality of a Tipping Point, even 198 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,400 with things out of proportion as they are, I'd imagine that the 199 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:22,400 future isn't all that far. We are already at the breakdown 200 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:27,100 point, it's not breaking down on a global. 201 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:31,200 Well level because there are an awful lot of vested interest and 202 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,500 they all become compensating, a seemingly compensating on the 203 00:13:35,500 --> 00:13:40,400 level of putting in more money Capital, applying newer 204 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,100 Technologies and Technologies can sometimes correct for 205 00:13:43,100 --> 00:13:44,000 things. Yes, right? 206 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,000 It's sort of like somebody who has a bad eyesight and it's 207 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,600 really cold coma and something. Seriously wrong with the eyes 208 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,200 and the lips wearing eyeglasses stronger. 209 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,800 Stronger eyeglasses and says, well look, I'm seeing seeing 210 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:56,400 pretty well so much for nothing wrong. 211 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,600 And I think given time comes when the school 21. 212 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:03,100 Correct? Yeah. 213 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:05,700 So we have already reached the point where it's not 214 00:14:05,700 --> 00:14:09,800 sustainable, when it actually reaches the point where a global 215 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,500 level of collapse comes a kind of a chaotic situation. 216 00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:18,900 We don't know already. We are Global level of stress, 217 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:24,700 behold, terrorism, and War situation, and the fear and all 218 00:14:24,700 --> 00:14:27,000 that is actually a manifestation, a see. 219 00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:31,000 Symptom of the stress in the system, people wouldn't be with 220 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,600 the less frustrated, feeling less marginalized. 221 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,200 Obviously, they would not be ready to sacrifice their lives 222 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,000 for what they consider to be a Cause, right? 223 00:14:41,100 --> 00:14:42,200 Sure. Sure. 224 00:14:42,900 --> 00:14:46,700 Well in the talk that you gave yesterday that I attended at the 225 00:14:46,708 --> 00:14:55,800 UN at the church Center, you, you made a point about what what 226 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:57,600 would it be too? What? 227 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,700 What you were talking about, what we can do essentially to 228 00:15:02,300 --> 00:15:05,400 individually correct. The situation and I was 229 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,200 wondering if you would just address that and you see be 230 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:13,600 expect and the everyday logic that somebody is in charge. 231 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,900 Somebody, we're going to do the things that are necessary are 232 00:15:16,900 --> 00:15:19,700 used to that from childhood on. There's always a teacher the 233 00:15:19,708 --> 00:15:21,400 government is supposed to. Yeah. 234 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,400 At my, your child is a teacher and I know your parents when you 235 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,000 grow up then you think oh, that is the state's administrative. 236 00:15:27,100 --> 00:15:30,900 Ation there is the government or perhaps that some people in 237 00:15:30,900 --> 00:15:34,000 business will know how to manifest, how to manage after 238 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,700 their managers. You know, sometimes somehow or 239 00:15:36,700 --> 00:15:41,400 other the the world will be kept going because somebody is taking 240 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,400 care of it. Well, this belief is turns out 241 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,400 to be incorrect because nobody is actually in charge. 242 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,700 Nobody even knows exactly what is to be done. 243 00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:55,000 Plus the people who are really have a greater power. 244 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,200 They also have the greater The interests. 245 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,300 So they are the least likely aside from some people with 246 00:16:01,300 --> 00:16:04,200 really creativity and commitment and morality, you know, there's 247 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:08,400 always exist but on the whole people of the most vested 248 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:12,600 interest in maintaining the status quo, are those who profit 249 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,200 more from this, from the present system. 250 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,300 So therefore they are fear actual change. 251 00:16:18,300 --> 00:16:23,200 They want to oppose change, the Reverend dude, the recognize 252 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:28,800 that change is inevitable but But they hope that they can keep 253 00:16:28,900 --> 00:16:32,100 control of the chain. So they stay on top of the wave 254 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,300 really system. Systemic change of the kind, 255 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:40,800 which is really becoming a new world, a kind of world which is 256 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,800 truly sustainable and Humane. It would have very different 257 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:50,400 forces operating in it and material possessions and money 258 00:16:50,500 --> 00:16:54,200 and the concentration of power and wealth would not be the main 259 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,400 driving forces. What was the IMs? 260 00:16:56,500 --> 00:16:59,000 What would Was other forces he referring to. 261 00:16:59,100 --> 00:17:02,900 I think you know human nature is not necessarily so programmed 262 00:17:02,900 --> 00:17:05,599 from birth. That we are only happy. 263 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:08,099 If we are more and more material possessions, in fact there have 264 00:17:08,099 --> 00:17:11,099 been some studies made on the physiology of the brain 265 00:17:11,099 --> 00:17:13,500 recently. Which showed that people with 266 00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:16,400 more material possessions actually are exposed to more 267 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,500 stress. So, the happiness factor is not 268 00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:22,900 really connected with how much you own that is such a thing as 269 00:17:22,900 --> 00:17:28,000 the quality of life, which is not the same as the City of your 270 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:32,300 material living standards. How much resources you use? 271 00:17:32,300 --> 00:17:34,300 How much energy, you consume, etc? 272 00:17:34,300 --> 00:17:36,500 Etc. It's a different kind of thing. 273 00:17:36,700 --> 00:17:38,900 You can have a very high quality of life. 274 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,700 This somewhat more modest consumption, more modest use and 275 00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:46,700 more recycling. More ways of using that you 276 00:17:46,700 --> 00:17:49,700 regenerate the resources that's entirely possible. 277 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:54,600 And people who do that actually lead healthier lives, have a 278 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,200 better quality of life. Many of the things that I really 279 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,700 are, beautiful are satisfying in the world money cannot buy, is 280 00:18:03,700 --> 00:18:06,000 this a money? Can buy resource, you know, I 281 00:18:06,008 --> 00:18:07,900 just came back from India. Dr. Laszlo. 282 00:18:07,900 --> 00:18:11,600 And I saw people who were working in the fields and 283 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:17,500 honestly, they don't have many Rupees to their name, and I saw 284 00:18:17,900 --> 00:18:21,600 not in all cases, but in many cases enough to make mention of 285 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:26,600 it, a sense of peace and a sense of ease with their lives. 286 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,000 That the westerners that were walking around the same place 287 00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:36,200 did not possess. Well, this is a fairly common 288 00:18:36,500 --> 00:18:39,200 experience that I've had in traveling and so-called third 289 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,400 world countries, were not only interestingly enough and 290 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,200 ironically enough, our people at greater ease and they have a 291 00:18:46,208 --> 00:18:49,200 different entirely different relationship to time, but 292 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,200 they're also more generous than most people. 293 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,400 I know of the moneyed classes here in the United States. 294 00:18:57,300 --> 00:18:59,200 Or they have a different sense of living. 295 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:05,000 It's a more longer term way of looking at the world in a Dia, 296 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,500 father's forefathers have left. This is the way they expected to 297 00:19:08,500 --> 00:19:11,900 be the a part of nature. They see the cycles of Nature 298 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:17,200 and human culture, is somehow something has a long 299 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:18,500 perspective. Yes. 300 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,100 Exactly. A deeper deeper root. 301 00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:23,400 That's right. And we believe that there is, 302 00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:27,100 there's a spiritual Dimension, which is not necessarily How 303 00:19:27,100 --> 00:19:29,000 much you eat it? People will tell you in this 304 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,500 poor country says, I'm sure they told you that you can only eat 305 00:19:32,500 --> 00:19:36,600 so much anyway in a day, you only need to basically one good 306 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,100 bed to sleep on, you know, and why do you need all that? 307 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:45,900 So it's not and that's true. The question of sacrificing, I 308 00:19:45,900 --> 00:19:49,000 might know, this is not your cutting back, you have to make 309 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:54,000 do without what you make do without is it is Superfluous. 310 00:19:54,300 --> 00:19:59,100 So then if you don't need what, In the current situation, close 311 00:19:59,100 --> 00:20:03,400 to the Tipping Point, where we see that global patterns have 312 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,900 already changed relative to whether it's not a maybe it's an 313 00:20:07,900 --> 00:20:12,100 already. What can the ordinary citizen 314 00:20:12,100 --> 00:20:14,600 do? Is there something he or she can 315 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:20,300 do and on what level can he or she participate in kind of 316 00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:25,700 taking control where our so-called leaders have not the 317 00:20:25,700 --> 00:20:29,700 ordinary person? Is the key this world is made up 318 00:20:29,700 --> 00:20:34,500 of ordinary persons and by the ordinary persons who live in the 319 00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:37,000 so-called Rich, part of the world, have a choice. 320 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,600 Whereas some of those people that you talked about where they 321 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,500 have lived in a traditional way, it was a few rupees a day or 322 00:20:44,500 --> 00:20:47,600 whatever currency they use. They don't really have much 323 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,400 choice, they have to do what they are doing to maintain 324 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,000 themselves and then away happy often doing that unless they 325 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,500 live in the big city slums and really land and Artificial 326 00:20:57,500 --> 00:21:01,600 environment is depressed, but as long as they lead them, allow 327 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,200 them to live traditional Lifestyles, they happy. 328 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,300 But those of us who live in a world that is that so-called 329 00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:12,700 industrialized world. We have a choice, we can't lead 330 00:21:12,700 --> 00:21:16,200 different. Kinds of lives is a very simple 331 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,700 test, very simple question. Each person can ask himself or 332 00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:25,900 herself is the way I live possible for all people on this 333 00:21:25,900 --> 00:21:28,700 Earth. It's not as though everybody 334 00:21:28,700 --> 00:21:31,900 would have to leave. Same kind of life live the same 335 00:21:31,900 --> 00:21:38,500 way, but do I, for example, consume food in a way that 336 00:21:38,500 --> 00:21:41,800 literally would make it impossible to feed our people. 337 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,000 Very simple example. If I find myself eating, red 338 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:52,000 meat, or the level, which is a typical consumption of red meat 339 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,500 in America, and in some parts of Western Europe and in Japan, 340 00:21:55,500 --> 00:21:57,000 which has came, it was vegetarian. 341 00:21:57,300 --> 00:21:59,200 Before and I was heavily meet oriented. 342 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:04,800 Now, if you have to do that, the the amount of agricultural 343 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:09,200 produce you would have to come up with Worldwide to feed the 344 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,900 cows, with have to double Universe. 345 00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:16,500 We need another planet, the size of the Earth, just to be able to 346 00:22:16,500 --> 00:22:21,500 feed all the cows, to be able to provide all people on Earth, 347 00:22:21,500 --> 00:22:26,100 with that amount of meat. So it's simply not eight, not 348 00:22:26,100 --> 00:22:30,200 not capable. That kind of diet, you cannot 349 00:22:30,300 --> 00:22:32,900 maintain. You cannot free spread to six 350 00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:36,300 and a half billion people. Many of these things are like 351 00:22:36,300 --> 00:22:38,700 that or material energy consumption. 352 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,600 Particularly are non renewable materials. 353 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,900 Fossil energies is such that if you attempted to say, could all 354 00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:48,300 people consume line test, you would say no. 355 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,700 The planet just isn't big enough for that. 356 00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:55,300 But even if people did that, it seems to me that at this point, 357 00:22:56,100 --> 00:23:01,000 So called pull in the waist. Is that really going to be 358 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,200 sufficient enough to tip the scale in the other direction? 359 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:09,800 It the large multinationals remain utterly and completely 360 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,800 intact. Even if you know, 20 million 361 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,500 mean, one thing that might get affected as the cattle industry, 362 00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:19,400 that would be a good thing. But is that going to be 363 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:24,000 sufficient to literally save us from this Tipping Point? 364 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,000 From this point of environmental collapse around meet your first 365 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,100 and psychological collapse, I will Say two things about this. 366 00:23:31,300 --> 00:23:34,400 First of all, this is not a question to ask you. 367 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,300 Well, has to do once you 31 lives and the present time on 368 00:23:38,300 --> 00:23:40,900 this Earth and you have to do the right thing. 369 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:42,900 Yes. And if you do the Right Moves 370 00:23:42,900 --> 00:23:46,400 with oneself, happily, we have, whether it works or not, you're 371 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,600 at least you did what you could. And this is the satisfaction, 372 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:55,100 you can draw from living, you cannot control this large 373 00:23:55,100 --> 00:23:59,200 processes, but the second thing is this, you have to recognize 374 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,300 That ultimately, the individual x. 375 00:24:03,300 --> 00:24:08,200 A critical amount is what decides, but businesses produce, 376 00:24:09,300 --> 00:24:14,200 what political systems decide on, because we do not have a 377 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,400 top-down system basically. Basically, we have a system 378 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,200 that's in the economy is driven by the consumer, by the demand, 379 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,300 mmm-hmm, by the client, we have in the political systems that 380 00:24:25,300 --> 00:24:29,400 driven by voters and popularity of the decision. 381 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,100 Curves in most parts of the world. 382 00:24:31,100 --> 00:24:33,900 Certainly in those parts of the world where we have real choice. 383 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:41,100 So if we not only live the right way, I mean a responsible way, 384 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,500 but we also communicate how they live shorter. 385 00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:49,600 Others, and example, provide an example, these examples can 386 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,700 spread very fast. Yes examples. 387 00:24:51,700 --> 00:24:54,900 I mean, I'm in fashion in blue jeans, spreads very fast. 388 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,400 It could also spread the responsible living. 389 00:24:57,500 --> 00:25:01,500 And in fact, sorry, Indications are going to serve is that in 390 00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:04,700 the u.s. adult population. There may have been about 10 391 00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:09,300 years ago, three million people, who live on this responsible 392 00:25:09,300 --> 00:25:13,000 way, the so-called cultural creatives about 10, 12 years ago 393 00:25:13,100 --> 00:25:15,400 and now they are 49 Millions, if not more. 394 00:25:15,900 --> 00:25:19,700 So it's spreading and spreading in Europe and in other parts of 395 00:25:19,700 --> 00:25:22,700 the world we have to join that wave. 396 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,000 Eventually that is Will stabilize the system. 397 00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:30,000 Yeah that is no other way because there's nobody And do it 398 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,600 from above from the outside. People themselves must do it. 399 00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:36,600 Do you suggest people be politically active in terms of 400 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,500 let's say letter-writing campaigns or many ways we can be 401 00:25:40,500 --> 00:25:43,900 active in your probably why the internet the way you live in 402 00:25:43,900 --> 00:25:46,900 your communication, you communicate on the internet 403 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,300 visual congress with man and Cetera. 404 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,400 You try for example, suggesting a pledge of sustainability to be 405 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,400 taken by your Alexis politicians that they would devote primary 406 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,400 attention to questions of longer. 407 00:25:59,500 --> 00:26:02,200 Term sustainability, locally and globally. 408 00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:08,100 You know, you can participate in becoming for example, members of 409 00:26:08,300 --> 00:26:10,800 shareholder associations was very little money. 410 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,200 You can buy a couple of shares. We will that you can, then raise 411 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,300 your voice and know exactly and V anything enough people start 412 00:26:18,300 --> 00:26:21,700 doing that, you know, you can really have an influence many, 413 00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:25,200 many ways you have the choice, you can do it. 414 00:26:25,300 --> 00:26:29,000 And if people start doing it, then this world will stabilize 415 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,800 itself. The Humane and peaceful way and 416 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,900 if people just pass the buck Denver had to all the Holocaust. 417 00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:39,200 Well, thank you for your encouragement and support in the 418 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,100 right direction. Thank you very much for this 419 00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:43,100 conversation. So we need to thanks. 420 00:26:43,900 --> 00:26:47,100 We've been speaking with you author of this book, The 421 00:26:47,100 --> 00:26:50,700 renowned dr. Laszlo and reading, this will 422 00:26:50,700 --> 00:26:54,200 help to inspire you to do the right thing at this very 423 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,200 important point in time. Thanks so much for joining us. 424 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,000 This is your host Mitchell, J Raven. 425 00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:02,100 We look forward to seeing you all next week.