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The code Amanda 20. Today I'm going on a style
journey with the director. Of M&S woman, the visionary
Maddie Evans. Hello and welcome, Maddie.
Hello Amanda. Thank you for having me.
Now you have presided over the most dramatic reinvention of
women's wear in many decades. So a chapeau to you Cos amazing.
What do you believe has been your secret weapon?
That's a that's a big question and it's something I get asked
on a very regular basis. So it should be an easy answer
that trips off the tongue. But I think, you know, I've
worked in the fashion business for a very long time now.
I was lucky enough to go through the kind of transformation of a
business many years ago that was Topshop and really kind of be
under the wing of a very inspirational leader at that
time who was a massive change agent.
And that was Jane Shepherdson, who I have a lot of time for and
I credit her with a lot of the change that she kind of drove to
democratise fashion within the UK and and really I would say
change the face of the UK kind of High Street pretty
fundamentally as well. So having been part of that
journey of transformation and being led and inspired in that
way as well, it certainly gave me the knowledge, the insight
around, you know, how you go about that, what you need and
you know, those strategic objectives that are really
important to make change. But most importantly, the team
that you need to help you move at pace as well, who are when
you set a vision, they have the same level of clarity and they
become your kind of change agents as well.
So thinking about that transition from Topshop moving
into M&S and my God, what a privilege it was to kind of take
that take over the helm there. But it was quite clear from the
outset that there was a lot of kind of reliance on history and
a lot of, I think kind of for some reason or another, a
perception around the customer that wasn't actually true.
And that was really about the fact that when you talk to the
design teams directly or to the buying teams and you ask them
about who our customer was and who they were designing for, it
was very much a kind of perception of an older lady.
And that perception of the older lady was because she was older
Star wasn't important to her. And as we all know now, that is
a complete myth and an obstruction.
And so that was the point of which it was really clear that
there was something kind of very kind of customer focus where we
needed to change that mindset. And quite often we were in those
kind of initial meetings looking at clothing on the walls or
clothing on the rails. And I had this kind of moment of
reflection with looking around the room.
And we've got a really diverse set of colleagues in the
business, you know, all ages, all backgrounds, very, very
diverse. And that one I saw diverse from
an age perspective as well. So we've got 25 year olds, we've
got 65 year olds in the room. And a very kind of person and
poignant question, which I think led to this initial kind of
reset and change was would anyone in the room actually wear
this product, please? Put your hand up.
And not one single person did. And there was probably about 40
people in the room at the time. And I think that was the moment
of reflection for everybody around, OK, if this isn't the
case. And I, and I actually referred
to my mother, my grandmother at the time, you know, they're 70,
they're 90 before they've, my grandmother passed away.
And what I do know is, you know, to be considered as old and
unstylish would be something that didn't sit with them.
And what I did know is the way they present the word self, the
way they consider, the way they dress, their terms of reference,
you know, wasn't about something over here.
It was something about, you know, wanting to feel stylish,
wanting to feel modern and wanting to feel relevant.
And that is what really underpinned and drove the change
within the business. Well, so how did you actually,
you, you established that things weren't right, which we we all
could feel, but So what was the, you know, did you mood board?
How what was that? How was that your vision
communicated? What we and and this is really
important, I had a perception of the business and the M&S
customer before I came in. I had a lot played back from the
teams around who they short thought she was and thought
thought exactly. And bearing in mind we've got I
think 13 million plus customers. That's a lot of customers that
we are servicing. So it's it's, it's very, very
broad church. So yeah, we I came in with the
original kind of reception. But the fabulous thing about
working for M&S is that we've got the best customer insights
and that's on a number of different levels.
We've got all of the colleagues inside the business, we've got
all of the colleagues in the stores.
And we've got an incredible customer insight team who goes
out into the UK and actually, you know, sits down round tables
or does surveys. And it's on a very regular basis
with a broad spectrum of people up and down the country, all age
groups, all profiles, all demographics.
So to have to have that resource is incredible and everything
that got played back is everything that you would
expect. And essentially it was we trust
you because of your quality, you know, and we know from a
customer perception perspective, we've LED in quality and we
continue to lead in quality. We trust you from a value
perspective as well. So we've that's really integral,
integral. That's part of our DNA is the
business. We lead in that as well.
And we have to protect that. That's what our customers, you
know, know us for. That's where we've built our
reputation. That's what we have to protect
at all costs. But from a style perspective,
the third question, where do we sit very, very low in the
ranking when we came in. So it was very clear from the
outset, protect those two things.
But we've got to address our * perception.
And that was not just from product, but how we present and
how we communicate about that product as well.
So that really was the vision, those three kind of, I guess
pillars. And we made it very clear then
from a star perspective. So the question was what does
that mean and what does it mean to different people?
And I think we quite quickly established as as well, again,
using the customer insight and the colleagues in particular as
well in the stores, because we work in stores, we're very close
to the colleagues in stores, was that it wasn't necessarily
about, you know, leading in trend, but it was about being
influenced by the trends at more of a kind of macro rather than a
micro level. And every single customer that
we spoke to wanted to feel #1 stylish, but where they could
make it their own personal style, their own, you know,
their own take. And thus giving them enough
choice to be able to do that, but also to feel like they were
on point, that they were kind of relevant in the kind of social
world, You know, when they went out and met their friends, when
they went to dinner with their families, that was really,
really important to them. And we were not providing that
product for them. So you walk through the doors,
you unravel all of that and in the designer business product
takes a year from first conception all the way through
to on the shop floor. Is M&S the same or are you
shorter lead times It's. Well, when I walked in through
the door, it was certainly on the 52 weeks cycle.
And you were inheriting, yes, all of this stock design,
correct? Everything that were already on,
like all the fashion. Hats, yeah, that's right.
Working on three seasons at the same time and yes, we, we were
inheriting a, a number of seasons stock that had already
been designed, developed produce and it was on its way.
But that that's kind of OK because you can, it means then
you've got the time to look forward and plan, make a plan.
And your question around the kind of lead times that we call
it. So how long does it take from
kind of cod and set to customer? We particularly coming from a
faster fashion business that was a bit of a kind of OK need, need
to rethink this in terms of how we go about it.
What's the process? Have we got the right sourcing,
have we got the right supply base to facilitate this
transformation? And are we working in an agile
enough way to be able to accelerate the change?
And what we were able to do is just approach things slightly
differently. And the first thing we went
about was looking about where we make our product.
And for anybody who doesn't know, it seems really obvious,
but but not always, obviously the further away you make
something, the longer it takes to get into your business.
The closer you make it to your business to to where you're kind
of to the UK, the faster it is obviously to bring that product
in. So we switched where we were
making things. So we were taking out of the
longer and putting more into the shorter, mostly so that we could
test and learn. And, and that's a really
important kind of unlock as well, because you've got a, you
know, a vision, you build a strategy based on the style,
value and quality. But you've really got to test
that, you know. When you say test and learn,
just explain that to the listener.
Yeah. So thinking about your product
development cycle, thinking about how you set out at the
beginning of the season, So right at the very beginning,
you've got all of the kind of insights from trend resource.
We've got a trend team in our business as well.
We've got a brilliant design team and they kind of go out and
explore and bring back what are the big kind of customer trends,
what are the big kind of market trends and what are the product
trends as well. So with all of that information,
they distill that into a, we call it a DPS, which is a design
product strategy. And the teams take that away and
build their own product, you know, category development from
that. So that that is their kind of
Holy Grail. That's their Bible, that's their
terms of reference. And whilst they're developing
that product, we do have a structured process around
reviewing the product, engaging the teams, engaging the
leadership. And then there's an official
sign off process at the very end.
But we went about kind of disrupting that a little bit and
tasking ourselves with in certain areas, where could we go
faster and where could we test some new kind of things product.
And one of those examples I would say was denim, because we
make a lot in Bangladesh, we make, we used to make in China,
we also make in Turkey and Turkey a real specialists when
it comes to denim, whether it's authenticity, whether it's the
kind of yarn development, you know, they, they really are the
experts that they kind of founded denim within Europe.
So we had that facility basically to work very, very
closely with the supplier around how we could short, circus,
short circuit the process and develop into some new styles.
So when I arrived, we were, you know, very, very dominant in
denim, full stop. We were leading in the market.
We were doing a fantastic job, but it was very one note.
There wasn't a huge amount of choice and essentially about 70%
of our sales were being driven by skinny jeans.
And this was in a point where, as I'm sure you know, and it's
not just been in the last few years, this has probably been in
the last four, 5-6 years, the denim kind of silhouette has
massively changed. And so you have got a huge
amount of choice now. So we took, you know, skinnies
aside, what else do we need to do?
So there's a wide leg, there's a barrel leg, there's a carrot
leg. I mean, there are so many
different leg shapes. So we took kind of 3/4 of those,
developed them really, really quickly with the suppliers.
The suppliers were able to facilitate that and we were able
to kind of get that into the business within about 12-16
weeks, which which was a way of working which the teams were not
used to previously. But what it meant was you could
land that in store and you could measure quite quickly what the
demand was and how the customer felt about it.
And no surprises, it resonated really well.
It it, it, it landed brilliantly.
We got huge amount of positive feedback, but importantly they
sold fantastically. And out of interest, when you're
testing something like that, do you test it online as well as in
store? Both channels and do you have?
Sort of what I call concept stores that, you know, are like,
for example, I visited that one up in Cheshire, Cheshire Oaks.
Oh my God, it is the most phenomenal M&S I've ever been.
My mother lives up there and and so I will pop there several
times a year to just sort of top up things for her and me.
And it's just a pleasure to shop there.
So is that the type of store? Yeah, we we to make sure you get
a really kind of full response. Yes, online for obvious reasons,
but then we choose big stores, medium sized stores and smaller
stores as well. So, so you get a real sense of,
you know, the scale of which you could build out on this.
Particular product, how exciting, how exciting, I mean
we're talking about manufacturing, how much are you
able to manufacture in the good old?
UK, not very much at the moment to be brutally honest and not
something that I would, you know, choose if, if there were
options. But it's commercially, it's
really, really challenging for, for for a business right now to
be able to facilitate that in a profitable.
Way, yeah. Do you ever see a day that that
might change or. I think that there's certainly a
number of kind of very passionate designers and
businesses in the UK who are really trying to make change
there. But honestly until I guess
there's a, a way in which we can design and develop products in a
way that fits into our price architecture that the M&S
customer is used to paying or is comfortable with paying and is,
you know, feels like delivers the style value and quality
equation, I think that's going to be quite challenging, I mean.
Because top of your pyramid, if I'm correct, would be Jaeger.
Yes, correct, Correct, yes. And is that even a possibility?
To with yes, I mean there are what I would say even if it's
not manufacturing, what we do do on Jaeger is source some of our
materials and some of our yarns from the UK.
So, so there are ways around being able to, you know, utilise
what's brilliant about UK manufacturing, even if it's not
in actually creating a product. It's the kind of at the earliest
stages in the fabrications and the yarns.
I mean it, it's heartbreaking really, isn't it?
And you know, it was when I was in my business, it was
heartbreaking not to be. Able to manufacture, No, I mean
when I was the, in the early years of Topshop, we did a huge
amount of business mostly on jersey T-shirts out of Leicester
and probably on a weekly basis. I was on the train and and the
ability to be able to pivot and be flexible and react and
respond to the customers need as a result of that was really,
really compelling. The fact that everyone in the
UK, I'll just say the UK, but but we're also invested in M&S,
does that ever feel like just the most monumental pressure
that that everyone's got these expectations of you, your team,
the product? Yes is the short answer to that.
But equally, I see it as a huge privilege as as do my teams to
be able to serve our customers and to be able to, I think, you
know, what gets us me up in the morning, my teams up in the
morning is the excitement around providing something to our
customers that's going to either service them on a more kind of
basic level. Because there's lots of products
in our business that are, you know, investment pieces that are
brilliant wardrobe underpinners and a lot of volume is driven
out of that. But equally from all of that
customer insight, a really important piece of the feedback
as well, particularly in that kind of post COVID.
So that's when I joined as well, was around inspiring us and
really showcasing how you put product together.
Because I think when you've worked in fashion for quite some
time, you get quite used to, you know?
Building an outfit essentially, and a lot of women find that
really challenging and they do need support and they do need
help and they do need guidance and that is our job we feel that
we have to do to provide that for them.
And so when you came into this role, did you get very involved
in the visuals and the. Yes, I've I have because it's.
One thing to design great products, it's another whole
thing to communicate it brilliantly.
Absolutely. And it's yeah, it, it doesn't
stop at that point. Absolutely.
Your, your vision has to play out, you know, whether it's
through, you know, the communication through our
channels, so through digital and through our stores, but also
then through, you know, social is so important now.
The partners, the influencers, the ambassadors, and then
obviously from a marketing communication perspective as
well, working incredibly closely with our marketing team team was
a real turning point for us because again, coming into the
business, it was very independent.
And I don't think there's any way that you're able to deliver
a communication that's right for all your customers without
working literally seamlessly hand in glove to deliver the
same vision as well, not different visions.
And I think that played out initially by a good example is
how we show up in stores. And when we joined, it was very
much presented by category. So you'd go in very, very
mission LED. You would have your T-shirt
area, you would have your jumper area, you would have your jacket
area. O really easy to shop from a you
know, in and out. I get what I need, but massively
lacking in insiration and engagement.
And we had to kind of incite that change and present it in a
much more coordinated way so we could deliver that inspiration
around outfit building. And yeah, just just a general
kind of sense of an overarching trend as opposed to a category
LED presentation and and that incited real change.
Yeah, I mean, you have, I've done some spectacularly inspired
collaborations. Like, you know, I think of
Sienna Miller, for example. Talk me through that.
Yeah, because I think she, I mean, she's such a style icon.
Yes, and a British style icon. British style.
Icon. And she's no longer 22, so
there's all those what I call tick.
Tick ticks. Where did that come?
From, Well, Rewind before we got to Sienna, we were very clear as
part of our strategy to change style perception, partnering
with stylish, either, you know, celebrities or fashion designers
or anybody who could help us change that perception, but also
really give us credibility in fashion as opposed to products.
So whilst, you know, it was something we, we were very
determined to kind of press ahead with getting to a list of
people who we thought would, to your point, tickle those boxes.
That's that's not not easy and that's not straightforward.
But Sienna absolutely did for all the reasons you just
described. You know, she's synonymous with
style. She's a woman who's matured in
in in front of the cameras and she's haven't had an evolution
of style. I think as well her wardrobe has
changed as as she's grown up and she's matured.
And we really, really kind of that resonated with us as as a
business and we were pretty sure that it would with our customer
as well. And we did strength test that as
well. And that was a firm kind of yes.
And just that kind of partnership with a woman who's
really clear about her own identity as well.
But equally, she has her own kind of, you know, I'm sure she
wouldn't mind me saying this, but, you know, lacking
self-confidence sometimes as we. All every woman on the.
Planet, as we all do, even though she is, you know,
sensationally beautiful and, you know, and, you know, a very
confident woman herself. So, yeah, that that was a
brilliant partnership, a brilliant process.
And I think we both equally really enjoyed the process.
On the Sienna collaboration, how, how did that work?
Did you know? Just talk me through it for.
The process, yeah, the process. So we were clear on the season
that we were going to work on and we were also clear in the
business that we wanted her to lead this.
You know, she was one of our style inspirations, one of our
style icons for all the reasons I think we and I certainly enjoy
about watching her and the way she puts her product to get all
her clothes together. It's she has a very strong sense
of personal style and there are a lot of women who look to her
as an inspiration and certainly some, you know, take guidance
from the way that she puts her clothes together.
So that that was kind of what we were trying to harness.
So we went into our first meeting having that conversation
and then it was just a real partnership around how we went
about it. So we she delved into her
wardrobe. Oh, great.
I know I didn't get to go. I.
Thought you might say script. All that meeting, but our
designers did so that that was the start point.
Those lucky people. But so we, they, they literally
came back in to, well, I think they spent time at the house,
they came back in. We were in our offices.
And that really was the start point of, OK, we've got the
seasonal project, we've got the things that Sienna really,
really loves and cherishes in her wardrobe and she feels
comfortable sharing with us. So it's a very unique experience
to be part of that process. And yeah, she drove the design
kind of strategy. She was very, very close to, you
know, the detail, the fit she was in trying all of it on, had
a very clear vision about what it should look like, what it
shouldn't look like, even down to button choices or collar
details or finishes or piping or the internals as well as the
externals. And she's, she's got a
brilliant, brilliant eye. She does have a brilliant eye.
Really the most incredible. Taste.
Were you at Topshop when the Cape Moss, was that a similar?
Yeah, it was very, very similar process.
Very similar process, yeah. Now, I mean there's so much talk
about sustainability and you know how we all should be buying
less etcetera, but yet the fashion industry is that the
fashion model is sell more, more, more.
How do you balance that at M&S? What's your?
Approach to that, yeah, I think going back to that original
pillar of trust around quality, I think that that's really the
backbone of working with products that will last.
So built to last week, we talk about and reference a lot.
So you know, the source that we kind of get our material or our
yarn from the way that we manufacture it.
You know, the the kind of kindness and the time and the
love that we put into developing every product and just really
making sure with each product that we carefully, you know,
build that it's something that will be on our wardrobes
forever. So it's forever pieces.
It's not disposable, it's not throw away.
And that really is at the core of the way that we think that we
work. And that is our approach.
And it's it's about a hand me down or hand me on as well.
So it might be in your wardrobe forever because it's got to have
a timelessness about it that you can bring it out again and
again. But equally important is that
you can gift, you can give, you can hand over whether it's to
family, whether it's to friends, whether it's beyond that.
So that that's really at the core and centre of what we do.
M&S stamp of quality attached. To it, yeah.
Is AI part of the business in any way really?
It's, it is, but I would say there is an opportunity to
really optimise that. I think everybody's, you know,
using it, everyone's, you know, understanding it at a different
pace as well. But whether it is to facilitate,
you know, even in a meeting situation where you know you can
bring AI into the room and it can document your notes in in a
way that you know is is. Someone taking the car.
In a way that someone could and certainly in a much more kind of
speedy way as well. So it it from an efficiency
perspective, it's extraordinarily helpful.
And then it's just how I guess less AI, more arraigned computer
aided design and development, you know, we use devices and
programs, which means you can design digitally.
And I guess this plays into, you know, the life of a garment and
sustainability as well and and usage where much more efficient.
Yeah, much more efficient. So you don't have to sample 5-6
times. You agree the concept at a
digital from a digital perspective.
And it's not until you've made all those tweaks and changes and
refined it and you're comfortable and confident with
that, that you then put it into making and producing a physical
sample. So that in itself really pays
into the sustainability. Absolutely, yes, yeah.
Whether that's less kind of movement of stock or actually
less, you know, creation of it physically, it's an unlock.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, do you ever see a time
where there will be AI on the site and you'll be able to
upload the muddy avatar and you can try on your leather jacket?
It will happen and it will. Happen more quickly than I think
most of us think I think you're. Right.
But today we're going on your style journey, so talk me
through what you're wearing. Today, Amanda, I am wearing I'm
actually I was I cut me in half and I'm M&S today because
lingerie is very important we've.
Got as you. Know huge market share in the
lingerie market? What?
Is your market share, can I just ask that question 30%?
It might be just under, but it's there or thereabouts.
So it's it's enormous. And you know, with that
obviously comes a huge burden. Huge burden.
Well, yeah. Because it's very intimate,
obviously. And again, through through those
life stages, you know, whether it's, you know, your first bra
post baby post surgery, you know, or, or as you're getting
older and what, what that means to your body.
How do you feel about your body as well?
It's a really important part of a women's journey.
So I am wearing M&S underwear and I'm actually wearing
Charlotte, who's our M&S lingerie director, doing the
most incredible job to modernise the business.
We'll need to perform that later.
Yes, 100% has developed and delivered this sensational 10 LB
bra. It looks great, it feels great,
it fits brilliantly. I feel good in it.
And is that moulded seamless? It's it's under wired, the one
I'm wearing, it's multi coloured.
We've got lace versions and and it's just it's you know, we're
at the beginning of that journey.
But again, it takes the style, value and quality.
It's absolutely brilliant. I won't talk about my pants, but
my pants pants in terms of they don't, they don't.
And that's another conversation altogether that we talk about a
lot too. But my pants, pants in terms of
my Trazers are a new, you can't see it here, but it's got a
little kind of seam down the yes, a press seam as opposed to
it's not a Pintuck and it is a very, very slim fare with a high
waist. It's a new fabric that we've
just developped and it just for me certainly holds me in in all
the right places. O it's denim.
Yes, with a bit of yes, it's got a little bit of stretch.
So I personally like something that's more authentic that
doesn't have stretch. But I think when you just put a
tiny bit in and it's in that kind of nought .5 to 1% stretch
within your denim kind of material, it just gives you a
little bit of give and certainly comfort.
And that that is something I've missed out actually.
Style value quality, style has to come with comfort.
Without doubt, there's the. 2 Completely interlinked.
If it's not comfortable, it's not stylish, no.
You're exactly you, you don't feel good, you know, and, and
what you don't want is having clothes on your mind.
They just need to be, you know, part of an extension of your
body and the expression of your personality.
So next I have an autograph. Lovely lining, very soft buttery
leather. I can attest to that because I
did. We had a touch in the field and
it's a yeah. It's a Blues on leather, Blues
on jackets, huge, huge. Now going to be even bigger as
we move forward. And it's got a zip front and
it's got a little bit of kind of gathering around the waist so
that you can zip it up and tuck it in.
And then you get a kind of slightly bigger proportion in
terms of your silhouette. And what size are you wearing?
I'm wearing a 12 and I'm. Not a 12.
I am forever saying on Friday night fashion.
Yes, size up a bit. Yes, yeah.
And and I guess that's that's again another, you know, that's
your personal start. You know, we provide the
product, How you choose to wear it is another thing altogether.
We can give you guidance, but then it comes down to what makes
you feel good? What?
What gives you all the confidence to go out of the
world? Yeah, and that and then a
gorgeous merino. It's a merino, yes.
I was having a bit of a kind of moment earlier as you can
remember. But yes, it is very fine gauge.
It feels almost like a second skin, but it's very breathable
as well because it's natural fibres.
And I've got a, you know, a variety of these in my wardrobe.
And a crew neck. I've only got a couple of roll
necks, but the crew necks, I've had them for the last five years
and they look as beautiful now as the day I bought them.
There's something about Marino that the right quality, yes.
It just wears. It does wears washes and looks
as good as new I. Was going to say it continues to
look as as good as new. And your shoes.
Not in store yet. They're coming up.
We've had loafers have been huge again.
They're they're just so easy to wear.
They're a kind of modern classic and they're autographed and
they're coming in not until spring, unfortunately.
So what we do get a chance to do sometimes is wear a trial.
Oh I love. Wear a trial.
Wear a trials. I'm always doing them because
and not just me, the whole teams, you know, go away.
How how does it sit? How does it feel?
Does it make you feel good? Anything that you can improve
on? Because there's nothing better
than actually getting it on yourself to have a bit of
perspective were. You very aware of your mother's
style when you were growing up? Yes, yes.
And my grandmother's actually before that, my mother's.
I think mostly I have this kind of distinct recollection of and
I think I don't know how old I must have been, but it must have
been pretty young the first time.
I think, you know, when you're, when you're very young as a
child, certainly when you're kind of first going to school,
there's a feeling of wanting to not stand out and a bit of a
kind of conform. And I remember we, I think we
had to take photos in of our parents marriage or something.
And I remember sitting around a table and you know, the 2030
pictures on the table of white wedding dresses.
This was in the 70s. I had to.
I got my neck and my mum was wearing a crocheted, tiny
delicate crocheted skull cap, gorgeous.
A brain floral dress, high neck, you know, very, very fitted,
just kind of hitting the ankles. A suede brain pair of kind of
Mary Jane's and a fresh bunch of picked flowers literally from
the fields across the road. And my dad looked nothing short
of John Lennon. I mean round spectacles, long
hair, you know, brain roll neck, brain DB suit and a pair of old
loafers. And that was their wedding.
And I just remember thinking,
whoa, OK, my parents are kind of different.
And I didn't, you know, it was just a kind of reflection point
that, you know, people choose to wear different things and more
of a kind of investigation for me really post that to think why
was that? You know, and then a a
realisation there were as I was growing up, there were tribes
and you know, there are, you know, which ones you belong to,
which ones you feel kind of closest to, but equally you get,
you know, individuals who have their own personal sense of
self-expression as well within that and they're the people who
really stand out. So that was my kind of first
kind of realisation that close did something to you.
But then I had, my grandmother was very well travelled and an
experience of going into her house and her always having kind
of Vogue magazines about and, you know, having that sensation
of that kind of amazing smell, that gloss and that kind of
world into another which was the fashion world and an
international world as well, which, you know, when I was very
little had not kind of been exposed to at that point.
She also had, you know, a distinct kind of recalls and
recollections of her, her lizard high heel shoes or her most
incredible, you know, jewellery boxes that were just, you know,
spilling over with things that she collected over the years
and, and mirrors that surrounded that and.
Yeah, both my grandmother and my mother.
Very inspiring women to be around who clearly had their own
sense of style, but a real interest in clothes as well.
And my dad too, actually. And then what was the first
moment that you put something on that felt transformative to you?
Maybe less something I put on that I can think about.
But certainly I do have memories of going to school and you know,
it was a pretty conservative uniform and I did not feel
comfortable in that. Knee high socks, knee high socks
that met my pleated Navy skirts and my, I can only describe them
as shoes that look like black pasties.
They were very comfortable. They weren't very stylish
anyway, and I'm sure my mum knew this at some point, but I used
to pack a separate bag which had a very different outfit in it
and lots of safety pins. So I would change my long socks
to little ankle socks, little pop socks.
I would take my pasty shoes off and put a new pair of shoes on,
which had made the sound of like a stiletto, but it wasn't.
I would go into the toilets, roll my skirt up with an initial
size. I think a lot of women will be
able to remember that process. And then I'd have safety pins
that would tuck my shirt in very tight.
And then I'd change my tie. So it was either, depending on
the season, the trend, it's either fat or it's very, very
skinny. And then a little bit of makeup
as well to boot. And you were allowed to do that
at school. Well, we, I don't know if it
wasn't necessarily laid, but I was.
I was not challenged and that I think I was more challenged when
I left home, that I looked like that more than when I arrived at
school. And yes, we would have some
challenges around. Turn your tie back around the
right way, roll your skirt down. And we would or I would, but
then 10 minutes later it would go back up again.
Yeah. Momentarily.
And what was your light bulb moment in terms of fashion?
I would say the grandmother I've just described, but also my
godmother being very influential in how I felt about fashion,
what I was, I guess, exposed to, and then what that thought
process meant in terms of what I was going to do next in my life
and my career and what I was really, really interested in.
And the grandmother I described took me, I grew up in a very,
very small town right next to the beach in the most western
region of Wales that you can possibly kind of reach.
And she took me up to London on many occasions.
She took me to Paris. And as a result of that, I got
kind of exposed to a lot of lovely shops because she loved
to shop in lovely shops too. And then my godmother at the
same time, kind of parallel to that, had studied fashion.
She went to the Royal College, she did a masters in knitwear,
and then she ended up being a buyer as well.
So I had these kind of two sources of inspiration that
really excited me. You know it.
It got my heart beating and I quite quickly knew that it was.
I had almost a calling. You're surrounded by so much
fashion, I just wondered if you ever feel completely snow
blinded by choice and what you want to put on.
No. And I think that's got easier
the older I've got. Being very, very clear about
what works for me and what doesn't, what suits my body,
what suits my attitude, where I'm going to get, you know, a
level of confidence from and where I'm not.
I do remember, you know, in my younger years sometimes
deviating from that and A and a fashion trend being so
appealing, you know, and I and I loved looking at it and I loved
looking at it on other people. And I loved looked at looking at
it on the catwalks and how that kind of hit St. style and going
and buying and trying to wear that myself and just thinking 24
hours later that was not a good decision.
Whether that's the amount of money I've just spent on it or
how it's made me feel. Which which was, you know, it's
yeah, it's it's more intuitive now, I think.
And I don't let fashion wear me. What do you think inspires your
style or does? Is that completely innate?
It's mostly, I think, innate. I do have, you know, people I
reference and people I love who are an inspiration from the way
way they dress. Who would they be?
I oh, this is a probably really obvious one that a lot of people
reference. Phoebe Philo, I think is
gorgeous, effortless and she she feels really confident and
comfortable in her own skin. Someone a while ago that I used
to reference a lot was very, very specific time, very
specific thing, but it was Kim Basinger.
However you want to let when she
was in 9 1/2 weeks or who didn't want to be her, live her life as
well as wear her clothes and that kind of, you know,
nonchalance and just kind of effortless kind of thrown
together style that was kind of cool, bordering on sexy, but not
too sexy, but, you know, very feminine, but not in an overt
way. And so she was always someone
that I just, you know, adored looking at and someone else.
I kind of reference Emmanuel Alt she again, she's got, I think
I'm drawn to women who have or use a uniform.
And she is, you know, when you see Emmanuel, oh, she'll
probably be in a pair of jeans or a pair of black trousers.
She will have a blazer and it's become her signature style.
And she's, you know, synonymous with that.
She she manages to with a few product types of, you know,
still make it look new every single time.
But yeah, she she's sensational. Would you say you've got a
signature style? I think it goes back to that it
is relatively androgynous, it is understated, minimalist, and I
try to be as authentic as I possibly can.
So would those 3 words be your style DNA?
I think you say yes, Yeah, yes. Yeah, I I think they they.
Come to to mind very quickly and effortlessly.
Do you do you feel that you have like a work uniform that you
refer to again and again? Yes, yeah, I always start with
my trousers. Do you?
I do. And I, I, I, I don't plan my
outfits but I do always start with my bottoms, whereas I think
a lot of women start with their top.
I don't know why, but I have a bit of an obsession with
trousers and denim, in fact. And actually I always felt that
that, you know, in my design years, getting a trouser ABS or
a gene absolutely right is the biggest science.
It is beyond a skill. It's an absolute.
Science. It's it's, it's painstaking and
it is, yeah, laboursome. But the end result, if you've
really worked hard to understand the female body and what works
and what doesn't. And, and there's always a sense,
you know, when we're talking about developing products at
Marks and Spencer's, that it's got to be flattering and it's
got to have a sense of femininity about it.
Even if it is a blazer, even if it is an oversized tracer, you
know that there's a kind of slight kind of softness about it
as well. And you know, something that we
consider. How many pairs of jeans do you
own, Maddie? My goodness, I could probably
fill a Wembley Stadium when I was at my peak.
Yeah, but I recycle a lot now so that there's a actually, my
husband's quite fastidious when it comes to, you know, we can't
open the doors or I can't get anything in.
So there is a recycle moment where, you know, the bags are
out. We go through or I go through
and then there's a big trip down to the charity shop.
But do you ever sort of say no, because these are really useful
references? Yes, Yeah, absolutely.
There's probably, I won't say how many a lot that I don't
wear, but are for kind of keepsakes and then for points of
reference because as we know those trends come round
cyclical. It might be 5 years, it might be
10 years, it might be 20 years. But bet your dog boss and dollar
it will be back. And then I have my kind of OK
this season. It feels like it's these 678
maybe. But I do get into a bit of a
habit of these are the fits that are really working for me at the
moment. So then just having them in
multiple washes? When you really need to feel
empowered, when you've got a big meeting, do you meet with
Stuart, the CEO? I would imagine.
What are you reaching for for those meetings?
Yeah, it might be a bit of a giveaway, but I think it does
start from kind of inside out, as it were.
So I do think underwear is actually really important.
And is it matching then? Sometimes, yeah, sometimes,
yeah, it would. Of all the matching days, that
might well be one of them. And you know, there is so.
Yeah, there's so much choice in underwear now.
And whether that's, you know, something that makes you feel
really comfortable, whether that's something that holds you
in in all the right places, or whether that's something that
makes you feel kind of a more kind of relaxed and frivolous.
And, you know, that's that's another occasion.
But I think something that gives you kind of structure and hold,
I think just kind of gives you a sense of security, I would say.
And then a good pair of black trousers is always a good one.
But I think actually think the secret weapon is a little heel
because there is something around a sense of height for me
personally, that again just gives me a little bit of edge
and it doesn't have to be a high, high heel.
I'm 5 foot 6. I always wanted to be 5 foot 8.
The heel I wear probably gets me to 5 foot 7, but that's just
enough. Do you think you use clothes to
message at all? Yeah, it is.
It's, it's, I think different women will do use clothes in
different ways to communicate. And I think even if it's not
conscious, and I would say for me, it's more unconscious than
conscious now in my life, in the stage of my career.
And you know that as as I mature.
But there there are definitely occasions where you know, you
want to reflect something or you want to communicate something or
you want to be perceived as something.
And I think they're the choices that we all make.
Yeah. Are you always head to toe in
M&S? Most of the time now, I'd say
the majority of the time, yes. Is this is the collaboration
with designers a sort of rolling thing that you're, you know, is
part of? Yeah.
Part of the strategy, yeah, to when the partnerships feel right
and when they feel authentic, when we feel like they share our
values and our common goals as well.
And that's exactly what Bella and Sienna, you know, it felt
authentic, it felt real, and we felt like we're absolutely in it
together. So yes, there is certainly an
appetite to do more and find the right collaborators.
But yeah, a, a few in the pipeline that will, yeah, be
revealed very shortly. How exciting.
I mean, you know, as we said, you're sort of working so far in
advance. Just coming back to your
husband, does he have a view on what you wear?
He only wants me to feel good. He he doesn't he he might
comment on something that looks great or something that's new
that he's not seen before, but always incredibly complimentary.
What did you wear to marry him? I had a dress made actually.
God, I should know the name of the the lovely scene mistress
who made it for me. She.
She lived described it to me. Kilburn and I had to travel up
there kind. Of did you design it?
Yes, yes, yeah, it was. Oh my gosh.
It was inspired by so many different people.
It was like a mishmash of a Valentino and a Stella McCartney
and a Chloe. I actually ended up going buying
a pair of Chloe shoes because they were the right height as
well. Not too tall, not too flat, but
just enough. But it was, it was Saturn and
Chiffon. It was just on the ankle.
It was a bodice that was kind of folded.
And it actually actually did have a bodice inside it as well,
because I did want to feel held in and together in it.
Exactly that. So it was.
Yeah. It was beautifully constructed
at the top. It had tiny, tiny little straps.
And then it had a lot of kind of chill and organza in the skirt,
but not floor dragging, you know, easy to wear.
And I haven't got it out of the wardrobe for a very long time.
Did you dance? But it is.
I did dance in it. That was important.
Yeah. Very, very important.
Is age a consideration of how you dress?
I, I probably not. I think if there's any
consideration, it's maybe more If there's anything that might
have changed or is changing, it's how I show up on holiday
and I that is purely down to a costume or a bikini choice.
And that's really as far as it goes.
I think for me around when I think about my age and when I
think about the clothes I choose to wear, but that that's a kind
of body consciousness that I didn't have so much, you know,
in my youth That is just, you know, it's, it's on my mind more
so now. I mean, is staying in shape
important? Yes, to you it is and I would
say. With the job that you've got,
you have a moment. Early morning run.
I, it's as you know, it's, it's about my well-being as well as
it is my physical, you know, and if I can start my day clearing
my head with a run and being up before anybody, that's what I
really, really enjoy. You know, running on the streets
and only seeing the kind of milkman and the kind of early
commuters or the dog walkers actually, or the runners and
that moment when the sun's just coming up that you have to
yourself. But also it's a brilliant way to
listen to podcasts and to catch up and, you know, current
affairs or other. Yes, it is important to me.
What's your view on hair make up, manicures, all of the all of
the maintenance side of things? Well, that's what I would say
actually. It's probably less consideration
around clothes from an age perspective, more consideration
around beauty. And I do like a manicure and I
think that's where my probably my time and effort is spent.
But I probably need to spend more time and effort on my
beauty regime because I absolutely horrified 2 of my
best friends that I was out with on when was I Saturday night by
sharing what that beauty regime was.
And I wouldn't like to embarrass myself now by sharing that with
you. The endless.
Yeah, yeah. And, and those guys do spend a
lot of time and a fair amount of money on it.
They look sensational. So there's something to be
learnt there, I think. Yes.
But then there's, well, would I rather have 15 extra minutes of
sleep? Yes.
So choices, yeah. Choices, choices, yeah.
You're phenomenally busy. Is your wardrobe beautifully
organised? I wish it was more so because if
I actually dedicated some real time to getting it into a kind
of category by category shape so that I knew all my jeans are in
the same place, all my T-shirts were, etcetera, etcetera.
I would like make my life a hell of a lot easier.
So I do find myself running around in the mornings trying to
kind of build that outfit, whereas actually if I got on top
of it, it would be good. I often feel that we become a
slightly different person on holiday or stylistically close.
Amy yes. So what is holiday you?
As you would imagine, a minimal approach, so great linen
underpinners, investing a little bit more in those kind of
basics, your vests and your T-shirts.
I think that's probably an age kind of reflection point where
something that's a little bit holy or a little bit kind of
Shearer is less of a consideration now.
Something that's a bit more structured and a little bit
heavier feels certainly gives, gives me, makes me feel better
about myself. So still minimalist investing in
basics, certainly a linen capsule wardrobe and then really
thinking about the the kind of sandal choices as well.
I think it's important and having lots of those packed
because that can kind of trend that that and a bag can
transform. Your outfit a good Packer or a
bad Packer? I think about it, it's a
consideration. More often than not, I probably
wear half the clothes that I've bought.
And what is your luggage of choice?
It's it's a wheelie and again, it's probably bigger than I need
and I can't even remember the brand that I last bought, but I
can get back to you on that one. Not, not a problem.
Would you say you've had a worst fashion moment?
Not anything specific. Guilty Secret What would you say
is the most expensive item in your wardrobe?
A. Few things come to mind that are
my go to's, which is I've got a beautiful Joseph coat,
incredibly tailored. It's double breasted, it's very
slim, but for me it's and, and it's very, because I'm, I'm more
petite, I would say it just hits my shoulders in the right places
and it gives me a structure that makes me feel great.
And I've had it for about 8 years now and it's, and it's
still as beautiful as the day I bought it.
And it hasn't dated either as well.
You know, it's, it's a, a true modern classic and it's, you
know, highly engineered. I do have a pair of saline
trousers, but I can't fit into them anymore.
But I didn't pass them on because they are just, you know,
I've got a strong attachment to them.
And I remember parting with that money.
But I got a huge amount of wear out of them.
They were worth every single penny and they still look
beautiful in my wardrobe. And the only other thing is a
slingback pair of Chanel shoes, you know, the toe cap ones which
I laboured over, you know, do I don't?
I do I don't I, But again, I knew it was the type of shoe
that you could dress up, dress in, hugely versatile, won't date
and it hasn't. You can bring it out again and
again. The designer handbags now have
reached a new high in terms of price and what's your view on
that? Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's, it's for the elite essentially Now it's, I
remember even, you know, in my 30s, you know, always kind of
coveting a designer bag. It was, you know, you know, one
day, one day I'll be there. One day I'll make it.
I'll have reached a certain level.
I'll be able to buy a designer bag.
And that was an achievable goal back then.
What's your personal approach to sustainable fashion?
I think it's back to that recycle, reuse and spending on
investment pieces is, is just my kind of go to.
So it's less in the kind of frivolous, it's less in the
fast, it's less I, I make choices around the brands that I
shop with. And certainly, you know,
obviously spending with M and SI know that it's, you know, come
from the right source, you know, it's been loved through the
process, but then, you know, just looking to other businesses
and, and also actually I've started, I think it's called 1
scoop. I might be wrong on that.
There's a new vintage shop that's just kind of popped up in
my neck of the woods. I mean there's plenty of them,
but this one specifically is just really brilliantly curated
and the quality of the second hand roducts in there is really,
really brilliant. I don't know where they source
from, but she's doing a fantastic job and what I keep
finding in there at the moment is Old Saint Michael.
Product so. Marks and Spencer's from right
back in the day, of which I've bought a few, not just for
myself but to bring it back into the teams as well to say a look
how long this has lasted and look how brilliant it still is.
And actually can we take inspiration from that as well?
We have a fantastic archive back in, back up in Leeds.
Do you? Yeah.
Where they, they keep and collect an awful lot of the kind
of, you know, the best of M&S product and going up there,
particularly for the design teams.
And actually we take some of our partners who we collaborate with
up there as well. It's an incredible source of
inspiration. So yeah, charity shopping for
me, second hand shopping is, is important as part of that
consciousness as well. What do you do with your clothes
when you've had enough of them? It goes to charity, does it?
Yep. What is the oldest piece in your
wardrobe? The thing that comes to mind is
actually my dad's. Yeah.
So there is a definitely a nostalgia there and it's a
sentimental piece for me and it's actually has got a few
holes in it now. It must be 50 years old.
What is it? It's you may remember this,
maybe some of the listeners won't, but as a reference point,
Starsky and Hatch, there was one of the guys who used to wear
this zip through kind of it looks kind of Canadian.
It might even be Scandinavian or Canadian.
I can't remember where he got it from because I know he had
friends in Canada and Scandinavia and I'm sure it was
through that process. Anyway, it's so heavy, it's wool
that it feels like you're almost wearing a sheep.
I always take it somewhere, you know, whether it's a festival or
camping. Camping because it is beyond
worn. You know, on a freezing day, you
are boiling in it and knitted, knitted very heavy knit zip up
kind of big collar cream base. That's kind of yellowing now,
unfortunately. But that shows there's, you
know, supernatural fibres. There was nothing kind of that
it went through in terms of a process and it's got a black
kind of, you know, Aztec knit into.
It and you've kept the moths away from it.
Well, it has got holes. I don't think it was the moths
actually. I think it's just literally wear
and tear. Yep.
And does it take you closer to your?
Yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's it's got a, it's got a kind
of smell as well, but in a nice way, not in an old fashioned
way, just to kind of that's, that's, that's another kind of
connection through. I don't know if you remember
this as a child, but you know, when people gave you clothes, it
smells of them. Anyway, this jumper smells of my
dad. We're going to spin on some
quick fire questions, fashion advice you'd give your 20 year
old self. I'd say experiment more.
Fashion trend you'd most like to see make a comeback or.
Era I have I have a kind of soft spot for the 90s.
I wouldn't ever wear it now, but I love seeing kind of the youth.
Fashion or beauty trend that you would consign to Room 101.
I'm, I'm thinking it's actually probably more male, but the
mullet wasn't a good look I don't think for anybody.
That's a good one, your last impulse buy.
It was actually a lip plump and it's something that we just
launched in the business. I haven't used it yet, so let's
see. Your views on tattoos?
OH. I've been so close to getting 1
so many times to the point that I've lain down in a tattoo
parlour and the and the needles been there.
And for some reason or another I've pulled out because I just
think of myself when I'm 85 year old, years old, not in bikini,
but in a swimsuit and what that's going to look like.
And I know and I've seen how addictive it can be.
And I think it doesn't stop at 1:00.
Yeah. But I love them on other people.
Absolutely love them. Beauty treatment you couldn't
give up manicure, high end or High Street.
Can I choose both? Yes, bling or bear.
Bear Minimalism or maximalism. Minimalism.
Frocks, cute or puke faces. Saying it all, Maddie.
Good on kids. Sneakers or stilettos?
Oh, neither. Skinnies, boyfriends or wide
legs? Straight.
Body con or boho? Neither.
Sports Lux or Rock chick? Both at different times during
my life. Red carpet or relax.
Relax. Beanie or Berry beanie?
Trendle style, style, colour or monochrome?
Monochrome, experimental or UU. Cashmere or cotton cashmere.
Shapewear or sexy lingerie? Depends.
Tights, stockings or hold UPS. Tights, bikini or one piece?
Transitioning. And finally, my traditional last
question. At the end of the day, what do
you or don't you wear in bed? Pyjamas.
M&S Pyjamas. I've got a mix.
Maddie, I honestly could have talked to you all day.
There's a million questions I haven't asked you, but thank you
so much. You've been an amazing guest.
Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.
It's. Great fun.