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Today I'm going on a style journey with Alexandra Shulman
CBE. Alex was the longest serving
editor in chief of British Vogue and after 25 years stepped down
in 2017. She's now an author, speaker and
journalist specialising in fashion, media, retail, social
observation and women's issues. Hello and welcome, Alex.
Oh, hello, Amanda. It's.
It's been a while. Long time.
I mean, we were in each other's universe for many, many, many
years, Decades, dare I say. But I will never forget as a as
a young designer, you inviting me to lunch and it was at San
Lorenzo's and it was in you had just taken over the helm of
Vogue and I and I was really touched, massively, massively
nervous about meeting you. But coming away from there and
thinking how approachable and normal you were.
Yes, miss normal. I think normal is my brand.
No, I, I think, I think approachable is and for, for
someone in that sort of position, which is sort of like
the Holy Grail of fashion. Yes.
I mean, the strange thing is that it's remarkable I ever got
that job. I mean, I, I knew nothing about
fashion when I went to Vogue. I mean, I knew less about
fashion than you would think was possible to know about fashion.
I knew so little because I knew a little bit because I'd edited
GQ magazine. So I was sort of aware of sort
of the fashion show thing through GQ, but I didn't really
go. I only went once to the fashion
shows with them. And though I had been on Vogue
in the features department, which was all about everything
other than fashion, it was kind of like complete chalk and
cheese. Nobody from the features
department had anything to do with the fashion, and nobody in
the fashion department had anything to do with features.
We were separate sides of the corridor in the magazine.
So I kind of quite literally, I would literally.
And I arrived at Vogue and I knew nothing.
But I always say to people, you know, ignorance is bliss.
If I'd known how little I knew, I might never have had the nerve
to do the job. But I think sometimes it's a a
massive benefit to bring someone right from the outside in.
It's a much more objective view. You're not going to be sort of
coloured by any influences that that you have already.
Well, it was because of the time.
It was. I mean, I think when 1 looks
back over Vogue editors, and I've done a lot of that over the
years, you know, sort of generations of Vogue editors,
basically they are of their time.
And I arrived in 1992 and, you know, we were in a recession,
British fashion industry was changing and you suddenly were
having all these guys like, you know, McQueen and Hussein,
Chilean and Galliano coming out of the out of the colleges.
So you had this kind of youth kind of pack coming up, but more
importantly, I think, or just as importantly, the High Street was
just beginning to really take off.
And so fashion became much more something that everybody could
have a piece of. And because of that kind of
democratization, I think my take on it had more relevance than
possibly it would have done in the 80s when it was more about,
you know, the the few big brands that that people knew like
Chanel and Armani and and actually British.
There were British designers, great British designers then,
but very much high end. So yeah, I was sort of right
place, right time, right place. Well, it it certainly worked.
I mean, out of interest, who do you think or what magazines do
you look at now as an outsider? We don't really read fashion
magazines. I get Vogue.
In fact, I was just reading the new issue of Vogue at breakfast
this morning and thinking how good I think chairman is doing a
great job with it. And it's it has a really nice
mixture of sort of fashion and features and it feels quite,
quite alive and on the on the ball.
But other than Vogue, I read a lot of interiors magazines like
Interiors and House and Garden, and a lot, a lot of periodicals
really. So like London Review of Books
and The New Yorker and The Spectator.
And I read all the time, I mean, in our bathroom, right?
We've just got this huge stack of periodicals that sits there
getting bigger and bigger because we've got too many to
ever get through. But you're both the same.
You both. My partner and I both
journalists. Yeah, yeah, I I've absolutely
loved listening to your dulcet tones in your in your book.
Oh, thank you. Clothes and other things that
matter. In fact, I ordered 1 and it
hasn't arrived because I wanted to get you to sign it.
But I absolutely loved that because it's so I suppose in a
way a bit like this podcast and talking about our relationship
with clothes and our memories attached to them.
And I I just wondered what inspired you to write that book?
Well, the, the, the, you know it, it's sort of the clue is in
the title. It is the other things that
matter that I was really interested in how you could look
at which you're doing here, how you can look at sort of other
aspects of life through how people feel about their clothes.
And I guess, well, to be completely honest, I needed
something to do when I left Vogue.
I mean, I left Vogue and I had no idea what I was going to do
with myself. I mean, again, looking back, I
think how was I really sort of brave enough to do that?
Because, you know, it wasn't like I had a huge sort of
fortune behind me. I needed to earn money.
And so when I left, one of the things I thought, well, I know
I, I can write, so I should try and do another book.
And it was really, I think it was really looking at my
wardrobe actually, and sort of looking at how looking through
it and thinking about how I felt about items in it.
And I was quite inspired by Nigel Slater's book Toast, where
he writes a kind of autobiography through different
foods. So I guess I sort of slightly
copied that. I thought I can do a sort of
memoir, but it not a book all about me just taking different
items of clothes and and I really, really like that book.
I'm very proud of it. The only thing is that I've sort
of written everything I've got to say in that book on every
subject. So I'm struggling to find a new
one. But you write a weekly column
for the. Mail on Sunday.
Yeah. And and how does that work?
Do they? Do you literally say I want to
write about this, this and this? Yeah, I mean, I am unbelievably
fortunate. I mean, I think I've, I've
touched wood cause how could I be?
My editor is called Ted Verity, who hired me thinking it was
2018. And when I went to see him, I
said, look, Ted, you know, I'm not really a male writer.
You know, I don't share all your politics.
And I don't have that kind of very sort of popular polemical
voice that, you know, a lot of your writers have.
And it's very kind of you to offer me a gig writing for you.
But I just don't think that I'm going to be the person that you
want. And he was just so nice.
He said I've got the people who can do that.
I want you to be you. He calls me Island Alex.
So most of the time, I think hardly ever has he ever
objected. I talk to him every Thursday
morning when I know what I'm going to write and I tell him
what my ideas are, and he will sometimes say he thinks one
thing's more interesting than another.
And when he doesn't like an idea, he says nothing.
So I always know which ones he doesn't like.
There's a silence, but he never says you can't write that and
you know it. I don't agree with it or you
can't write it. So, so long as I sort of write
something quite lively, I think he's, you know, he lets me get
on with it. But today we're going on your
style journey and I just wondered how you decided what
you were going to put on today. OK, well, I did think about it.
I thought Amanda's really chic and I can't possibly turn up
sort of just in something really sort of scrubby and old.
But on the other hand, she's going to ask me what I'm
wearing, so I can't wear something that sort of isn't
really me. So I was having a think and I
thought, well I also know that you film it, so I know that it's
kind of table up. People can see what I'm wearing
at the top. So hence there's a brooch I
know. Pins.
Is there a story behind the brooch?
No, not really, except for the fact that in the book Clothes
and Other Things That Matter, I did a a chapter on brooches and
pins and I was absolutely transfixed by Madeleine
Albright. Me.
Too collection where she wore brooches to message to message,
Yeah. So I've rather taken to
brooches. This one doesn't have a message.
I was going to say, So what? Am I receiving Hungarian paste?
I just think it's so pretty. You're not really.
I think you're just receiving somebody that likes something a
bit decorative. It doesn't.
It looks really expensive and really real. 15 lbs.
Portobello Market No. Way it's gorgeous, I love it.
That's a a proper plug for Portobello.
So yeah, so I did think about what I was going to.
Wear and Navy cashmere. Navy cashmere.
I'm always wearing Navy. It's my kind of safe space.
It's a really, really good colour on.
You thank you. Well, they're different navies,
aren't there? And.
There are so many different navies.
I actually became obsessed last winter with wanting a Navy crew
neck sweater and I couldn't find one.
And actually I got Lucinda Chambers you I used to work with
to, to help me. And she was kind of sending me
suggestions, whatever. And none of them were quite
right. Nothing was quite right.
So I didn't get one. And then this autumn I thought
I've got to get that Navy crew neck again.
And I went to one of my favorite shops is a little boutique
called The Cross in Notting Hill.
And they have a brand of cashmere that I really, really
like called English Weather. And it's got sort of slightly
sort of boatneck. And I thought they would have
one, but they didn't. And all that cashmere was too
heavy this year. So this was the only one they
had. And actually, you won't be able
to see it on the screen, but it's not quite the perfect Navy
blue for me. I prefer something a little more
intense. This has got a bit of yellow or
something in it that I don't love.
But it does I I would see you in a slightly pinker Navy, if that
makes sense for a more purpley Navy, yeah, true Navy, yeah.
But yes, it's it's. 'Cause I've got a bit of a tan
from holidays I think this is OK, but it may not be so good
when I get pallid. I love it.
The the finite. Yeah, details of Navy.
Yeah, love that and the silver. So the silver is a skirt from
Wise. Is it called Wise and this?
So I have a friend called Victoria Howard, and she lives
at Castle Howard. Yeah.
And she had, three weeks ago, she, her husband Nicholas
Howard, and she gave a party for her 70th birthday and their
daughter Blanche's 30th birthday.
And it was called the Nui Blanche.
And it was at Castle House, absolutely beautiful.
And the dress theme was white and silver.
So I got the skirt for the silver.
What do you wear on top? I wore a white beaded Jenny
Packham top that I got. Old or new?
Old lovely. Yeah, lovely Shopping in your
wardrobe now. You grew up in London, Was you?
Was your mother Very stylish? Well, my mum, who's 97 now, is
still stylish. Yes, she she loved clothes and.
Because she had a hell of a career.
Didn't. She, yeah, she was a journalist
all her life and, and, you know, only gave up really in her 80s
and because she worked, was full time.
So the only time really that we got to see her when we were
little was when she was getting dressed, I realized.
And we'd go into, you know, her bedroom because she'd be getting
dressed to go to work and then we'd go to school and then she
wasn't there when we got back because she was still working.
And so I'd watch her get dressed.
And I still remember things like her putting her stockings on,
you know, with the girdle and, and then her clothes, although I
don't remember the clothes when she was actually at that stage.
I remember her clothes more when I was a little bit older and she
was very into things like isimiyaki and Yoji Yamamoto.
She was working at that point. She was editing Bride's Magazine
for Conde Nast. That was quite early days for
Yoji. And no, no, she was very
forward. Forward thinking I love the
thought of you as a little girl watching your mother put on her
suspender belt. Yeah, and it seems so glamorous.
Yes, I couldn't wait to wear stockings.
And and do you remember the first moment that you tried on?
Yes, I do. Oh my God, yes.
So by that time, you know, that girdle, thank God, had gone, but
you had those little suspender belts, you know, with sort of
that cut. Into.
Everything. Yes, absolutely.
But I was very young, I think then, I mean, I must have been
maybe 12 or something. No, you know, I was so desperate
to wear stockings. So I had my, I had my stockings
and suspended belt, but I can't have worn it very often because
you couldn't wear them to school or anything.
So. But do you remember the the
first time you put something on that you felt transformed by it?
No, not really. I I have very clear memories of
of bits of clothing that made me feel good, but they didn't
transform me into being anything other than what I was.
So what was that first bit of clothing that made you feel
really good or otherwise, or not?
Yes, well, lots of things when I was little that made me feel
otherwise. Most of my clothes when I was
little, such as tartan trousers. My mother used to make me wear
hideous tartan trousers, scratchy sort of tweed dresses
that were sort of the sort of mode at that time.
What kind of shift sort of it was in the 60s and we had, there
was a shop around the corner. It was called, I think it was
called Deborah Davis, but I might be wrong.
And she made these kind of scratchy tweed shifts, mini
shifts that we had. But at the same time, there was
kids in gear, which was heaven on earth.
And you had these big, I had these big kind of kids in gear
belts that you could wear with beaded bolaros and flares.
And that was all, you know, 10 or 11 kind of thing.
Kids in gear in the Kings Rd. And were you choosing it
yourself or were you going with your mother?
Yes, you must. Going with my mother, yeah,
yeah. But did you wear a school
uniform? My primary school was a school
called Lady Edian Eden's. Not only did we wear a uniform,
we had to wear gloves. Oh, my goodness.
Yeah. Gloves and white gloves in the
summer and, you know, wooden gloves in the winter.
And pinafores and boaters. You know, the whole shebang.
And then I went to Saint Paul's and Hammersmith where you didn't
have to wear a uniform, but you did have to wear a coat until I
think it was like the third year there.
And you used to go to school on the school bus.
And it's so weird this really, because you didn't have to wear
a uniform. But I was really jealous of the
girls on the school bus who went to another school in West
London, which was Godolphin in Latimer.
And they did have to wear a uniform and they were proper
Centrinians, you know, they all had these kind of miniskirts.
Yes, exactly. I was really jealous of that.
I don't know why I didn't think. I suppose my mom wouldn't let me
go out like that in my own clothes, but.
But did you feel pressure back then to come up with your school
look? I was quite rebellious in terms
of clothes the teachers didn't like sort of what I wore.
I was always getting told off for it and.
Because. Because it was sort of not.
It was just a bit too sort of probably a bit too hippie, a bit
too trendy, always been a bit too hippie.
And when I got the vogue, everyone sort of said, oh, you
know, hippies gone to vogue. But there wasn't, I don't
recollect that kind of pressure that people say about schools
with no uniform with, with everybody being very competitive
about clothes. I don't think we were in those
days. It was the 70s.
And I just don't think people had that same feeling about, you
know, there were no brand. None of us wore brand names.
We all dressed out of jumble sales.
There was a brand name. It was Bieber and Laura Ashley,
the two brand. Names and then Miss Selfridge.
And then Miss Selfridge. Yeah.
And then more and more and more came.
Yeah. What do you think was your light
bulb moment in terms of fashion? Gosh, I'm not sure I've ever
felt that way. I'm very schizophrenic about the
way I dress and, and clothes. You know, sometimes I'm all kind
of Navy blue and quite tailored, and then sometimes I'm all
completely kind of bright pink and sequins and, and I have, I
think like a lot of people, you know, there are moments when I
feel, yes, I've got it now this, this looks good.
I'm right. And then, you know, a few months
later, suddenly it doesn't feel that way.
It all sort of feels suddenly all wrong.
Is there someone that you would go shopping with that you really
trust their opinion, you just go to yourself?
Absolutely not shopping with other people.
I go shopping by myself. Anywhere in particular that you
love? No, actually a wide variety, you
know, I mean, I'll go to, I'm not brilliant in department
stores. They kind of freak me out.
But I might go and have a look in like Selfridges and sort of
see what's there and get an idea for maybe what designers doing
what. I used to wear a lot of Prada.
Prada has become so expensive now.
I mean, it's just unbelievable now.
It's eye watering isn't? It, yeah, something was
beautiful, yeah, but something completely different.
I mean, it used to be what we would we could all buy if we
sort of saved up and now you know.
Had a Vogue discount. And had a Vogue discount now.
And had a Vogue discount. And if anyone's listening in
Prada, do I still have a discount?
I hope you. Do I wouldn't dare ask, but now
it's like, you know, the skirt I last wanted there was 7000 lbs,
but I'm not going to buy a Prada skirt for 7000 lbs.
But I sort of know there are designers that I will that I
know I like like I like Grace Wales bonus.
I'll have a look and see what she's got.
A Saloni I like, I like. Who else do I like or dropped
off my head at the moment? But you know, I'll look first of
all at the designers that I last bought and see what they're
doing. Erdem.
I love Erdem. But that's not cheap either.
No, but it's not Prada. Now, you famously edited Vogue
for 25 years. Do you remember what you wore on
that very first day in the job? I went to Bronze and I bought a
Lolita Lampica black jacket with zips all over it and I already
had a black skirt, so. And in fact, all the pictures,
the press coverage of that show me in that sort of scimitar kind
of zips everywhere I think I wore, which I feel slightly
agonised about. But I think what I wore the
first day was a Joseph Bright turquoise sort of coat jacket,
you sort of to the knee with a pair of black trousers
underneath it and it had silver buttons.
Why are you agonized about that? I.
Don't know because I think probably it didn't look great.
During your tenure at Vogue, you've had to dress for some
pretty big moments. I mean, 100 years, you know,
and, and it's been well documented, but you were asked
by the then Kate Middleton for your list of who, your
suggestions as to who would be good designers and be fascinated
to, to know who was on that list, you know, and then you
didn't know who she'd chosen until the day, but you actually
attended the wedding itself. What did you wear?
Well, first of all, I strongly advised McQueen because I
thought she'd get on with Sarah Burton.
I thought that was genius, by the way.
I thought that was so right. And it had to be a British
designer and there weren't that many people who would have.
There was also a security element.
So although there may have been sort of young, smaller
designers, they just wouldn't have been able to deal with the
security. So there weren't that many
people that were actually in the frame, but yeah, I, Christopher
Kane made me an outfit and I've still got it.
And it was a, a sort of sequin, but a sort of dull blue sort of
sequin skirt. But so it sort of shimmered more
than sparkled like this. And a a Navy sort of beautiful
kind of woolen. It's not a woolen tank top, but
it's a vest, but it's sleeveless top sort of tank and a matching
jacket short. And I got had a pair of Manolo
blue shoes that I think I already had pair of blue shoes.
And then Kate Tarpani made me this.
I don't really. Well, I do wear hats a bit now,
but I didn't like the idea of wearing a hat.
But she made me a kind of headdress.
And so I, you know, I showed her what I was wearing and she made
a headdress to go with it. And yeah, I've got all of that.
It was very exciting. Not all in one go.
I've worn the tops a lot. I wore the headdress when I went
to collect my CBE. Interesting, what else did you
wear for your CBE that? I wore a Navy again.
Navy. Yeah, Forte and Forte.
It's a beautiful coat, actually. And I was wearing it the other
day and it had this kind of, it's like a a loose coat.
It was in a kind of a linen, not not structured.
And it's got the most beautiful dark aquamarine satin trim on
it. And I can't remember what I wore
under that. I don't think you could see it.
I remember when I got my OBE Nonswanx, I wore Louis Vuitton
bright pink jacket, one of those sort of Marc Jacobs collections
for which had sort of these lovely raffia buttons, and it
was very fitted and wasted. And I've still got that.
I can't quite find another time to wear that.
That one's a harder one. Do you archive your sort of
those important? No, I wish I had.
I wish I'd kept things. I mean, I gave so many things
away. When I think of what I gave
away, I can scarcely bear. It I know because when I was
listening to your book, 'cause I listened to it rather than read
it, I and you talk about you have 500 and something pieces in
your wardrobe. I thought, my God.
MMM, that's actually when you count in bras and knickers and.
Not that much. It's not that much.
Did you do a massive clear out after Vogue?
No, I just gave away all the time.
I was all. The time I gave close.
I've still got a lovely green skirt of yours with, you know, a
zip. Oh good.
Dark green, yes, which is absolutely lovely.
I wear it when I want to look really smart.
I think you wore that to our 25th anniversary dinner.
Yes, at Harry's. That's right.
Yes, absolutely right. God, I had amazing Gucci pieces.
Prada, Alberta Ferretti, Armani. I gave them away.
I gave a lot of them to Oxfam. Oh my God.
I know. I mean, I didn't have the.
Room. I didn't have the room and there
were quite a lot of things, and this might be difficult to
understand, but pieces that I felt were more like a uniform or
a costume than they were me. So I didn't have an emotional
attachment to them. I mean, I wish I had them now
because because they wouldn't be work anymore.
They're just, they're just beautiful pieces and I would
love to wear them. But at the time they seemed to
me, yeah, to be to be a be a uniform.
So I didn't mind giving them away.
I mean, I'm always fascinated by the show season.
It's incredibly intense. You're there watching 6810 shows
even in a day. Maybe as editor, probably more
like 6. Often 10.
Yep, and you were going literally from New York,
possibly straight to Milan. How did you plan your wardrobe
during that time? That was a sort of pressure
moment because you did have to have new clothes, really did
have to show that you were sort of aware that the season had
changed. So it was sort of manic shopping
trip before the shows. So when I I'm just trying to
think because it used to be actually that New York came at
the end in the 90s, you remember.
And I think London was first, yes, I think.
You're right. So, and then it would be Milan
and Paris and then there was a gap until New York.
So you know, London you didn't really have to sort of worry
about because you were at home. Paris and Milan that packing was
quite, quite a, quite a big thing.
I just took a lot of luggage. And you, I mean, being
surrounded by these Uber, Uber stylish, stylish.
Was there anyone in particular at Vogue that you sort of could
pressure test your looks with or did you just always rely on you
how how it made you feel? Well, Amanda, very, very early
on, I knew I couldn't play that game.
I knew that that would I would go mad.
You know, I wasn't going to be a clothes horse.
I wasn't going to look great in the clothes.
I wasn't going to be Karine. I wasn't going to be Anna.
I was going to be me. And so I never felt any need to,
to sort of run my looks through other people.
And I, I think actually they were probably horrified
sometimes it. Wasn't as much to run your looks
through, it was just you had so much talent around you, you
know, And I think of people like Kate Phelan who is the classic
white shirt, blue jeans, wonderful.
Girl, but you know, but Kate Phelan's a classic white, white
shirt, blue jeans. Girl, I couldn't wear white
shirt, blue jeans so. She, and I'm not suggesting you
would, but but she's also brilliant stylist.
Yes, I'm just trying to think. No, not really.
I don't think I ever did do that.
I don't think it ever occurred to me, actually.
I mean, Vogue House must have been a revolving door of
fantastic freebies walking through the door day and night
from brands trying to Curry favour with the magazine.
It never seemed like that to me. I mean, people, yeah, people did
did send a lot of stuff and it's quite hard to explain.
I mean, I think it was more to be honest, not so much that
people were sending in freebies. It would be more like for the
fashion editors, they'd go on an appointment and somebody would
offer them something. So it wasn't so much that tons
of stuff was just coming to the office randomly.
It was more kind of individualized than that.
And then there was this point back in the 2000s and something
where my boss, Jonathan Newhouse, suddenly got the kind
of started to think that everybody had to behave more
ethically. And he put in place a kind of
gifting policy which basically meant that you couldn't accept a
gift in theory and that you had to pay into a chat if you wanted
to keep a handbag. Say you gave me a handbag.
If I wanted to keep that handbag, I would have to make a
donation to charity. That was a kind of, you know,
not just £5. Well, I mean, I don't think that
really ever happened very much. I mean, it's, it's part of the
job. It's a nice idea, but and then I
would see other editors in other magazines, you know, other Vogue
editors, I will nameless, you know, draped in free furs and
things. And I was thinking, well,
they're definitely not making a contribution to the charity
fund. The equivalent of the value of
said fur. I mean, I can't imagine.
Just sort of talk me through when you would arrive in Paris
for the couture shows and you would go up into your beautiful.
Room. Beautiful room.
And would it be filled? With filled with flowers.
Flowers. Filled with flowers.
I mean, Karl Lagerfeld sent the most beautiful flowers that I've
ever seen in my life always and. Did you keep the notes?
And the notes I kept, well, I kept the notes that were nice.
Sometimes there were not such nice notes from him.
Oh, tell me. There was one time when he went
completely furious about a book review that we ran in Vogue,
which was by a very, very good book called The Beautiful Fall,
which was about Carl and Saleron and written by a very good
journalist, Alicia Drake, who we had used in the magazine.
And Carl hated the book. And he was absolutely furious
that we had run a review. And when I reached Paris that
time, there were no flowers. But there was a very long letter
from him about, yes, handwritten, about how appalling
it was. And you know how disloyal it was
to, to, I mean, it never entered my head that there'd be any
problem. But apart from that, most of the
time he was very sweet and he wrote really nice and, and did
little illustrations as well. In the very early days, Versace
would actually sometimes, you know, gift a jacket or something
like that. Prada always had handbags in
Milan. Again, in the early days, it all
sort of slightly changed as time went by, but, but the flowers
were the main thing. Amazing flowers.
How gorgeous and did you? It must have been almost a sad
moment leaving that room at the end of your trip with this.
Oh yeah, I would sometimes take the flowers.
I remember one time getting on the Eurostar with all these
flowers that I wanted. It just seemed so sad to leave
them there. Had this huge bunch of flowers
and as usual, 1 was desperately running to get the the sort of
the last train out of. Yeah, Paris and then of the, you
know, and the, the, the conveyor belt with all these flowers.
Now I heard a story, and this may be fact, it may be fiction,
but I wonder if you could cast any light on it.
Ray Kawakubo used to send sort of weird and wonderful gifts,
and there was one season that she had sent key editors vacuum
packed chartouches. And of course a chartouche or a
pashmina or whatever in a vac pack probably looks pretty
disgusting and that a lot of the editors took one look at it and
didn't even open it and flung it.
That must have been before my time, or otherwise she didn't
think it was worth sending. Can you imagine the grief?
Yes, the the sort of self pity you would feel.
They would have felt so stupid. What a clever idea.
Brilliant. Yeah.
And those who those that unwrapped them and those that
didn't, yes, I, I don't. I never heard that story, but it
sounds totally credible. I I think it is totally credible
now. I know you love your Manolos.
Was that always the case even before you became editor?
No, no, I never had Manolos before I became editor.
So tell me your take me on your Manolo journey.
Well, really it start, you know, when I went to Vogue and I met
Minello, I hadn't met him before and he, I'm just trying to think
of my first. I would have gone into the shop
in the Church Street. Exactly.
And just, I'm trying to remember if I can remember my first pair
of Manolos, but I don't think I can, but I did.
I could order them from, you know, from the show what they
called open days, you know, press days.
And so I've still got some really beautiful like
embroidered Manolos that actually my feet can't fit into
now, but they're just so lovely. And then I became kind of
addicted to these white Manolos that he I always.
Think of you in your white. Manolo and I still wear them.
When I left he gave me I think it was 4 pairs.
Oh. How lovely, I know.
And were they custom made for your foot?
Well, they were custom made. The heel was custom made because
it wasn't a usual. It was 90 centimetres, which
wasn't his usual heel height. It was higher than.
That the whole last was custom made, Alex.
Right. OK, that was custom made.
And though I love those shoes and I still think I still wear
them, even though that sort of those kind of pumps aren't very
fashionable because somehow they're just he's, he's a master
at making making the shape of your leg look better.
Yeah, and the comfortable shoe. And the.
At whatever height, I think he is a genius at that.
I really do. And and I agree, those pumps,
they sort of come and go, but they're they're sort of forever.
I think so, yeah. Forever.
In my wardrobe, anyway. I mean, you've had some pretty
cruel things written about you over the years.
Does that I I'm just how do you let that wash over you?
Or does it ever? Has it ever got to you?
I don't think any of the things that were written about me when
I was editor of Vogue, which were mainly to do with the size
I was, my appearance not being, not having sort of grown up
within the fashion community, that never bothered me.
I don't know why just didn't. And it's extraordinary if you
think about if that was today, that just would not happen.
I think because I'm a journalist and always have been, you know,
I don't really mind what people, I mean, if they write something
completely untrue, I mind. So I have minded what's been
written about me since I left Vogue.
After I left Vogue, where a lot was written about me and
portrayed me as somebody that was kind of racist because I
didn't have enough black people on the staff.
And I really minded that because it was completely untrue and I
no longer was in a position where I could sort of retaliate.
Yeah. Yeah, very common.
I mean, I often talk about clothes being our armor.
Do you think you've ever used clothes in a protective way?
Absolutely. I think that I use clothes.
I mean, I use clothes as I mean, sometimes now in my life, it's,
you know, I'll have a real mixture of things that I'm doing
in a day and I'll often go home and change in order to sort of
change the costume, which in a way is an armor, you know,
wanting to appear a certain, a certain way.
I mean, I think as human beings, and particularly in the fashion
world, we're quite susceptible to looking or to reading what
other people are wearing. Is that something you're
conscious of? Yes, I mean very much so.
And quite often now when I sort of do talks, so I'm speaking, I
often find that I'm asked to speak to, to groups of women.
And, you know, clothes is a big subject, not just for me but for
them. And, you know, I always say the
thing about clothes is that it is the first thing that
somebody's going to notice about you.
You might think you don't care about your clothes, but you sort
of have to care about your clothes because by making the
statement that you don't care about your clothes, you're
making a statement. Yeah.
Do.
You have a style icon. Mucha Prada.
I love our Mucha Prada. And so one of the things I most
enjoyed when I edited Vogue was to to meet Mucha in Milan.
I mean, she was quite frightening because she sort of
doesn't take, you know, she's clever and she would always just
arrive just looking so amazing somehow.
She'd sort of, you know, she'd have her kind of her sort of
sort of straggly hair and she's sort of olive skin with these
absolutely amazing jewelry always on these earrings that
literally worth thousands of pounds with some kind of ugly
broggy shoes, you know, from the Prada collection and a pair of
socks and brown legs. And then this kind of sort of
every, everything just a bit off, but all looking like it was
so on, you know, and it's so clever.
And I think I've never seen her not look fabulous.
Absolutely. And you know, she whether she's
wearing a kind of, sometimes she wear, wears sort of little kind
of trouser suits, sort of narrow sort of Capri pant trouser
suits, which looks so great. But then she'll always kind of
wear them with these heavy shoes, you know?
Yeah. I mean, it's always just that
little bit off, but it's so right.
Yeah, yeah. So I think she's probably, she's
the person whose style I most admire.
How would you describe your style DNA in three words?
Comfortable, eclectic, comfortable and and individual I
think. I like that.
Yeah, thank. You.
Thank you. Would you say you've had a worst
fashion moment? Yeah, I think actually one of my
worst fashion moments was at the Met Ball.
I only went to the Met Ball once, and it was when Burberry
was sponsoring it and Vivian Westwood's team.
Very kindly made me a dress because I wanted to wear British
and I had quite a lot to say about how I wanted that dress to
be. And they probably shouldn't have
listened to me because I didn't want, I thought, to have a kind
of Vivian Westwood sort of corseted kind of big sort of
dress. So I ended up with a kind of
grey tube dress with a a that that was a sort of bustier, but
it basically just looked like a grey tube and it just was.
I just did look really frumpy in it.
What? Was the theme of that Met Ball
anglomania and no tartan? I should have worn tartan.
But do you think you've got a got a hangover from the Tartan
Trues era? Probably, Probably.
Absolutely. You're quite right.
I've never had a bit of tartan in my wardrobe since.
Why can't we talk about beauty for a moment?
What's your approach to hair, makeup, nails?
What's? So I since I left Vogue, and
this is very perverse of me, I've become obsessed with
makeup. So I wear much more makeup now
than I ever wore at Vogue. Now why is that, do you think?
I think because it's fun now, and when I was at Vogue I
thought people would be looking at me for my makeup, whereas now
I'm just doing it for myself. Hair, my hair is always like my
hair is always like this. I keep cutting it off or growing
it longer or making it more blonde or whatever.
It always ends up the way it is now, which is a kind of tinted
shoulder length. Now you've written about going
grey, being brave enough to go grey.
Where are you? You're you're obviously.
Not going grey. Not going grey.
No, not going grey. I mean, I wish I was you.
I wish I was blonde because it's so much easier.
It shows it a lot less. Let's show it that way.
It shows it a lot less and if you want to, you can gradually
sort of go into a more kind of salt and peppery thing.
Whereas me, I'm so dark that to go grey would be a huge
operation. I mean, funnily enough, my
hairdressers often tell me, you know, you might want to go grey.
They often sort of think that maybe I'd like to, but I, I
wouldn't. I think I, I think for me, I
think it would just immediately make me feel older.
As a woman in her 60s, what's your view on how brands and the
fashion world market to your age group?
Well, it, it depends who I I hate the kind of kooky
octogenarian look. I, I just don't like that way
that people kind of think one way of dealing with people being
old is to make them look ridiculous, as if sort of like,
well, we're it's so amazing that we're still alive.
We can look as crazy as possible.
I don't like that. Then I think the sort of the
token person with Gray hair in a fashion lineup drives me nuts
too, because it's literally the Gray hair that they're that
they're going for. I've never thought that there is
a problem about there being no clothes for older women, and
people say this to me all the time and I've not yet worked out
the answer for them because I see clothes everywhere all the
time. I mean, Marks and Spencer has
got great stuff. Totally agree with you, but I
don't think that it's well communicated to women in their
60s and 70s and 80s. It's almost like there's a
switch that gets flicked and, you know, I look at my 91 year
old mother and she's wearing, you know, cashmere joggers and a
hoodie and Converse sneakers and she looks amazing.
And. Appropriate because I've
probably bought it for. Right.
OK, but and but she and she's a very willing, you know, wearer
of it. But if, if when I look around at
how the fashion world are communicating to an older
customer, I, I think it's lacking I it's either on a 20 or
30 year old, which actually that's not you know, but that's
beautiful you're. Going to, you know, use that.
Absolutely. But I think there's this sort of
gaping great gap of how, how do you know, we've got all these
women who have never looked better, never been wiser and
more capable and allowed to be. And yet there's there's very few
people around sort of showing them how to.
I think that's interesting, and I would agree with you.
And funnily enough, it's sort of, I've been thinking about
writing a book not about clothes for women in and in that period,
but about this period altogether.
Because I think there's very little communicated about it in
general, which is that there's a kind of you're either a young
person or now you're a menopausal person and you've got
sort of empty nest syndrome or you're so old that nobody's
talking about you anymore. But I don't think I'm old.
I I, this is my point. Yes, I'm whatever I am and I'm
still thinking I'm late 30s forties.
I'm certainly living my life in that.
Way it's to me, it's interesting about, you know, about the fact
that it's sort of almost not that it's a neglected age, but
it's almost sort of kind of like it's an age that people don't
quite know how to deal with. And you're right, I suppose
about, you know, but there are I mean there are women who look,
you know, look one for like I'm Leslie Manville, the actress, I
think she's absolutely brilliant and she always looks looks
amazing. I mean there are a lot of
actresses in their 60s and 70s now who look terrific.
I think probably they could be used in advertising campaigns,
but not in the way that people are using them, as I say, making
them look kind of crazy. It's interesting that, but
there's another layer of this, which is I think that if you are
the age that I am, which is 66, I don't want to be siloed in
that way. So I don't actually, I'm not
sure I do want the things that I buy to be photographed on
somebody my age. I'm not saying that, but what
I'm saying is surely there's something between there's some
crazy older woman and gorgeous, Yeah, nubile.
Well, I mean, there are, you know, there's Kamin, Yasmin, Le
Bon. I mean, Yasmin's always used,
right? And.
And phenomenally stylish. And phenomenally gorgeous.
Yeah, exactly. You know, But there was only one
of her. Yeah.
And OK, so there are a few other people.
And now you've got the supermodels, all, you know, all
getting older. But they are supermodels.
So you can't really aspire to to look like a supermodel.
I mean, nor would you want to. I don't.
I think it's a really interesting question and I
haven't thought about it in quite the way that you're
putting it, but I think it is very much worth thinking about.
And it's kind of crazy that given the the the grey pound, as
they call it. That I that is also my other
point, you know, we've never looked better, felt better, had
more time and money to spend on looking great.
I went to AI went to a a talk two nights ago about publishing
an age, and it's absolutely fascinating that James Daunt,
you know, who owns daunts and now Waterstones and everything,
basically said that, you know, that that the older people who
everybody thought were the ones that were going to be wedded to
buying books are turning in droves to E readers.
You know, and everyone thought oh, they wouldn't like to deal
with the new technology, but they are, you know, they are the
people that e-reader that are buying.
I can't remember what it is like 3035% or something or other over
50s. Read entirely on E readers.
I wonder if it's whether they just have got enough stuff in
their life they don't want more. That's exactly what it is.
There are three things. When they're older, in their
sort of 70s and 80s, they don't want to have more stuff.
It's that E readers are light, they don't want to carry a heavy
book, and they can adjust the font size.
Of it, love it. I mean, do you, do you think
ageism exists in fashion? Yes, I I mean, I think it exists
everywhere really. I don't think any any any more.
So in fashion. I mean, after all, you know, one
has to look at it. I mean, how old's Armani Muchas
no spring chicken? Even Nicola Gasquier now must
be, you know, getting old. I mean, all the big designers,
Ralph Lauren, they're all, you know, older.
So but I don't think that necessary is reflected in in in
their teams in their collections.
No, but but I'm I'm not sure. I think it should be.
Before we spin on some quick fires, what's your approach to
sustainable fashion? Well, I mean, it has to be sort
of pro. I don't don't think anybody
wants unsustainable fashion. I think it's very complicated.
I, you know, quite often in in all these environmental issues,
you know, if you really drill into the nuts and bolts, you'll
see that something that appears to be doing something that's
good is actually causing another problem somewhere.
And I think the fashion industry, you know, has a lot of
that. I also think that although I
think, you know, obviously sort of sweatshop fast fashion is
appalling and should just be banned, I do think that the idea
of people being able to get, you know, cheap clothes is, is
important. You know, I think it's a quite
sort of overly privileged thing to, to snipe at some of those
fast fashion brands really, because they do enable people to
have, you know, have a choice and sort of follow fashion
trends. So I think it's complicated.
Totally agree. What is the oldest piece in your
wardrobe? The most beautiful ball gown
that I stole from a house that we rented for a long time when I
was a teenager. And it's this incredible kind of
50s satin ball gown with amazing sort of beaded top.
And obviously it doesn't go anywhere near me now and I
haven't been able to wear it since I was 25.
That is the oldest piece in my wardrobe.
Hang on, you stole it. Yeah, it was.
There was some clothes in that house that did not belong to us
and I took that ball. Gown.
But I don't think the person who now owns the house would have
wanted the ball gown then anyway.
I hope. I probably won't be listening to
this. Oh I love it, I love it.
Let's spin on some quick fires. What fashion advice would you
give your 20 year old self? Enjoy it.
Fashion trend you'd most like to see make a comeback.
I'm afraid, like everybody in the 70s.
It is the answer that I hear most of the time.
And I have to say I just saw a screening of Maria which is the
film about Maria Carlos with Angelina Jolie and the 70s
fashion is beyond in it. Right good top tip fashional
beauty trend you would consign to room 101.
Touring. Your last impulse buy?
What's they called Greek sandals?
Ancient Greek sandals in rubber for my holiday.
Sort of like jellies, but very chic jellies.
Your views on tattoos. Oh I wish I I wish I had one,
but I think it's too late now. Grooming or well-being
treatment? You couldn't give up.
I love a pedicure. High maintenance.
Low maintenance. Low I I I I am low maintenance.
I wish I was higher maintenance. High end or High Street?
Definitely both. Crocs cute or puke I.
Wouldn't have minded a pair of those Christopher Kane Crocs.
They were good, weren't they? Sports Lux or Rock'n'roll?
Probably veer towards the Rock'n'roll.
Cashmere or cotton? Cashmere.
Trilby or Tracy? Tracy trend or style?
Style. Colour or monochrome?
Colour. Pattern or plain?
Probably plain. Order or editor?
Order hoarder? Oh hoarder or editor hoarder?
Hoarder for sure. Charity shop or resale?
Charity shop. Shapewear or lingerie?
Lingerie bikini or one piece bikini?
And finally, traditional question, at the end of the day,
what do you or don't you wear in bed?
Nothing Alex, what a joy to reconnect with Amanda and took
all things style and fashion and vogue and just go on this lovely
journey with you. Thank you.
Yeah, it's been great. Thank you for having me.