1 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:06,600 Oh, Julia, Julie's You Beautiful creative you yes, another India 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:10,480 episode with me, Sarah Golding. Hello and today, oh, you're so 3 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:12,840 lucky. Some beautiful wise words from 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,240 none other than super creative character. 5 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,400 Awesome and the most exciting person you probably need to 6 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,600 speak to if you need to know what a network does, is and 7 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,280 should be. Yes, it's much more hello. 8 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:29,520 That's a big intro. I hope I can live up to it. 9 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,840 It's going to be. So networks, fable and folly, 10 00:00:33,160 --> 00:00:35,360 how does it work? Sure, sure yeah, a little peek 11 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,840 beneath the hood. So Fable and Folly is a fiction, 12 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,640 not strictly fiction, but primarily fiction podcast 13 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,760 network where we represent producers primarily across the 14 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,680 indie space and help them with tools and and information on how 15 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,520 to grow their shows, how to get to the next step from wherever 16 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,120 they are, be it, you know, just starting, having been doing it 17 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,560 for a year and not seeing the success that they hope or down 18 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,360 the road while releasing a very successful show like where is 19 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:05,640 the piece that we can put in there? 20 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,000 So we deal with a number of facets. 21 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,160 But who makes it run? Myself and my business partner 22 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,120 in this, Sean Howard. I'm the COO of Fable and Folly. 23 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,400 So I deal with all the operations from producers to 24 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,960 sales to growth, liaising in between. 25 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:28,880 Sean is our CEO and he is Co founder of Fable and Folly as a 26 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,600 name in the space, which has been around for much longer than 27 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,240 the total Network has. And we also have two other 28 00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:38,800 amazing people who work with us. Carla Maxted, who's our creator 29 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,320 liaison, who does a lot of review and vetting of people who 30 00:01:42,320 --> 00:01:45,360 put in applications and then helps them kind of get started 31 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,520 through our onboarding process. And Damien Zidlow, all of these 32 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,680 people are also creatives in this space. 33 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,760 And he is our marketing director who handles all of our socials 34 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:59,640 and newsletters and helping boost the voice and message of 35 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,400 all the producers who have great things to say to all of our 36 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:04,880 platforms and in our audience. Fantastic. 37 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:06,880 And the shows on there are phenomenal. 38 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,960 Like there's an array of them. And I mean, you can have a look 39 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:11,400 for yourself. And I'm lucky enough to be 40 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,480 involved in helping create AUS 9, just a slice of it with the 41 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:17,600 editing and have a good, good little play on it. 42 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,680 And yeah, so I've had to sort of delve into that brilliant, 43 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,800 comforting hug of the network that is working. 44 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,160 So how did it start? You tell us, like, what was the 45 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:27,840 need? Why is it there? 46 00:02:27,920 --> 00:02:31,440 So Fable and Folly Productions, this was Alba Salix. 47 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,960 Eli and Sean created Alba Salix, End of Time and Other Bothers 48 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,560 and Civilized. And then the great year of 2020 49 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:44,040 came along and Sean, like so many others, lost a lot of 50 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:45,800 opportunities that he had going on. 51 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,800 So while he had a gap, saw a need in the space for 52 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,800 independent fiction producers who really couldn't get a seat 53 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,520 at the table or through the door to even have a conversation for 54 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,840 any sort of ad representation or ad. 55 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,120 I with brands saw a need to come together with a coalition, A 56 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,800 conglomerate, a group of people who we could test this with just 57 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,360 to prove that fiction advertising could and would 58 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:15,080 convert just as well as talking heads or an interview style 59 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:19,120 podcasts. Yes, it felt new and foreign to 60 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:23,760 a lot of buyers in the space. But what he, and later I once he 61 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:28,120 called me as one of those first 12 people saw was like a lot of 62 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,880 mainstream media, be it TV or movie, is all fiction. 63 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,800 So why? Why is podcast so different than 64 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,120 that? So he called up 12 friends in 65 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,120 the space. To to. 66 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:46,280 Which we all looked at him, I think all but one basically 67 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,520 looked at him and said, well, we aren't making anything now. 68 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,040 What's the worst that happens? We can come out of it a year 69 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,320 later and say, well, that was that was fun, but we move on to 70 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,200 something else. So we all said yes. 71 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,480 And then he at the time went to market, started pitching the 72 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,640 network and the shows that we represented, which included 73 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,960 Unwell and The Amelia Project and my own shows, Dungeons and 74 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:13,000 Dragons and others, and showcased that not only could we 75 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,320 do successful advertising, but it could be different and 76 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,240 unique. Not just a standard host read, 77 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,680 but because we have these fiction worlds, these serialized 78 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,880 worlds, we could put the cocaine and Tony Stark's hand, so to 79 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:27,440 speak, and have that in world endorsement where it makes 80 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,080 sense. I kind of got a little down the 81 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,200 road there, but that's that's how it started. 82 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:35,400 And then since then we've just every year keep finding more and 83 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,600 more people who we can help from that 12, I just did a count, 84 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,920 we're up over 120 shows representing Direct Line, about 85 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,360 80 producers. And in our community, there's 86 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,240 much more than that, obviously, with actors and showrunners and 87 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,160 writers and all of that all working to do the same thing, to 88 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,960 promote something that they love to a wider audience. 89 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,680 That is phenomenal. I'm really excited and can I say 90 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,640 grateful on behalf of like, I'm sure everybody listening that 91 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:05,280 there is such a thing where as a podcaster you can build 92 00:05:05,280 --> 00:05:08,840 together, you're not isolated and on your own. 93 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,080 Because that's exactly it. A lot of the, the, the case, 94 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:14,720 isn't it for a lot of of creatives. 95 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,400 And I, I said in an interview in the audio drama production 96 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,120 podcast networks are the way forward. 97 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,240 We need to be working together. And it's like, I do feel that 98 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:27,680 Faber and Folly is definitely one of the brilliant examples of 99 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:29,960 how doing that can be really useful. 100 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,200 Not just identifying yourself as a maker that other people 101 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:37,280 believe in too, which helps, but also, yeah, connecting with 102 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,320 other people who are, you know, likewise trying to make their 103 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,080 way and share their art essentially. 104 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:43,760 Yeah. In a, in a way that, you know, 105 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:45,680 hopefully embraces and gets noticed. 106 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:47,440 But yeah. So do you have a specific 107 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,280 mission statement? We do, yeah. 108 00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:53,480 It's like a joint vision and mission that we we try to strive 109 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:54,920 for. And it's evolved since we kind 110 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,760 of started the network. But where we're at right now is 111 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,400 a vision of a world where independent producers can make a 112 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,880 good living telling their stories. 113 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,200 And then the mission that kind of follows behind that is to 114 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,200 create significant audience growth, which is a hard thing to 115 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,600 do for a lot of people without resources or means in the space, 116 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,520 as well as scalable revenue opportunities for all the shows 117 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,880 we represent. That sounds exciting and also 118 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:19,480 scary. It is. 119 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,080 It is. Right, There were periods where 120 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,160 we thought like this is this is hard and it continues to get 121 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,520 harder to launch a show even back in 2020. 122 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,400 But before that, when Sean launched his shows or you know, 123 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:36,640 the early 20 tens, yeah, it's a different podcast landscape 124 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,680 shows like Wolf 359, who's on the network, who's one of the 125 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,840 still one of the largest fiction shows in the space. 126 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,960 There was less there or less to weed through you just there were 127 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,080 5 or 6 that came up on your feet. 128 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:51,480 And those were the ones. Yeah. 129 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,400 Now truly, even in the network alone, there's hundreds. 130 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:58,400 So how do we help them stand out and give them the tools and 131 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,080 ideas that some sometimes feel a little gate kept? 132 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,840 We're unabashedly very transparent, sometimes to a 133 00:07:05,840 --> 00:07:08,360 fault. But we want to make sure that 134 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,200 whether you come in with us, whether you stay with us or you 135 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,200 find a better opportunity down the road, that we leave you with 136 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:18,920 something that will help you continue to progress beyond just 137 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,880 being in the network. That yeah, I mean, that sounds 138 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,040 very exciting because it's nurturing ambition too, right? 139 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:26,280 To do more. Well, that's it. 140 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,520 And you know, we as fable and folly, we know we have our 141 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,560 limitation like we know that there is a there is a ceiling 142 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,080 based on just the number of people and man hours that we 143 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,720 have that we can do. So you get a call or you start 144 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,880 pitching to other places for funding or all that like we're 145 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,600 here to we're here to help. We want to see you move on to 146 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,080 something bigger. Maybe you stay with us, maybe 147 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,080 somebody else has a better opportunity for you. 148 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,080 We try very hard not to leave any relationship with a bad 149 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,440 taste, right? Sure, we want to make this easy 150 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:56,440 for people. Yeah, that makes sense. 151 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:00,000 I mean, just how much hard work is it for an individual or team 152 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,000 wanting to join in? If you've just perhaps been 153 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,880 accepted by whatever process, which we might talk about in a 154 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,120 moment, what happens? Like how much input does that 155 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,640 individual or team then have to put into keeping things buoyant? 156 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:16,000 Yeah, we take a different network approach to a lot of 157 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,720 experiences that both Sean and I have had in the space. 158 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,560 We are a small team as, but what we do through the onboarding 159 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,680 process is we get you into the network which is to come over to 160 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,240 our host so we can help you migrate the show, which is one 161 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,799 of the most seamless migrations. Yeah, well, I created it, but 162 00:08:32,799 --> 00:08:37,000 you know, I've been through in the entire space, so I'm a 163 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,640 little bit biased. We currently right now are a 164 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,640 split network between Megaphone and R-19. 165 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:44,920 So we're on a couple different just depending on the shows. 166 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,200 So you come in and as part of the onboarding process, you have 167 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,600 a A1 on one call with me or where we walk through industry 168 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,160 best practices, what works, what doesn't work for growing your 169 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,600 show. And a lot of those, which a lot 170 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,640 of people in this space have a good concept of or have a good 171 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,280 idea than are doing at some small scale. 172 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,800 But that's being in other feeds, talking to other creators, doing 173 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,680 those host thread swaps, promos, feed drops, that sort of thing. 174 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,440 But then the work really comes down to, and those producers who 175 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,400 see the most success are the ones who can carve out the time 176 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:23,120 to do the cold outreach. Do you know the internal network 177 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:27,480 outreach get a consistent rotation of those swaps and 178 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:32,640 trades and stuff going so that you're always fueling the engine 179 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,800 That on top of the things that we can help support and do in 180 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:37,640 the network. But because we have so many 181 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:41,800 producers and because time is always fractured and everywhere, 182 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:46,320 like we really continually want to make it known that your show 183 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,800 is your show. We are here to support and help 184 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,440 you. We will take any calls that you 185 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,120 need for clarification for running things by us for, you 186 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,880 know, have you tried this like always here for that. 187 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,400 But that work of going out and telling people how great your 188 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,200 show is and can we do this is the hardest part because we're 189 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:09,360 all our own biggest critics, and stroking our own ego is the 190 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,880 hardest thing sometimes when we're trying to bridge that gap. 191 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,800 It does sound, you know, very supportive indeed. 192 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,720 I mean, what requirements would there be for someone listening 193 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,280 now who might want to approach you to say, actually, yeah, I've 194 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,680 got some episodes in the bank. I feel like I'm a good fit. 195 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,440 So on our website, fableandfolly.com under, I 196 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,920 believe it's under the about tab, there's a network 197 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,480 application which is, which is an air table form where we ask 198 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,760 several questions about your show, like how long have you 199 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,200 been in release? What what's your average 200 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,120 traffic? And by traffic, I mean weekly, 201 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:46,320 monthly downloads, that sort of thing, which we for some time 202 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:50,000 had like a hard cap like many networks do of like, well, a 203 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:55,000 show has to be here. But what we found was that 204 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:59,840 became very limiting for creators without years of 205 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:02,680 broadcaster digital marketing experience. 206 00:11:02,680 --> 00:11:06,960 That became very limiting for shows and producers who were in 207 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,040 marginalized groups. So we looked at it. 208 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,600 We want to see that you have they tried to release it on your 209 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,760 own and then judging from that, the level of success. 210 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,280 So as we talk through the onboarding process and the 211 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,240 application process, like, you know, we'll talk about what kind 212 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,200 of things you as the creator have done to be able to put your 213 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:28,360 show out there. Some people have tried very 214 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,680 little, but some people know very little about the industry. 215 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,880 Others have tried a lot and they, you know, then we can 216 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,320 gauge their level of buy in for putting in the work. 217 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,120 But really what it comes down to is we're looking to work with 218 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:46,720 and help support creators in the space who are creating cool 219 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:52,680 things, who we see have the drive, have the the ambition, 220 00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:57,040 have the want to not just make their show bigger because they 221 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,160 hope they can turn this into a day job. 222 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:04,760 Like that's all of our goals. Also just are you in it for you 223 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,840 or are you in it for the greater community of producers? 224 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,240 It's a very tight knit community. 225 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,040 We say that you can say that about any industry, but because 226 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:19,000 there are so few of us in the grand scheme of like podcasting 227 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:23,080 in general, like you get to know everybody very quickly and my 228 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,320 listeners are probably at least some fraction of going to be 229 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,160 your listeners as well. So how can we share that? 230 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,320 And how can we look at it as a rising tides? 231 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,400 All ships float. How can we make that true among 232 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:40,760 a much larger network of people essentially trying to do the 233 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:42,840 same thing, just with a different story? 234 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,080 Connectivity within the teams there, I know there's 235 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:50,120 opportunities regards to produce a meet which you have regularly 236 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,480 is of course the Discord server which you connect everybody 237 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,600 through and various channels there. 238 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:59,080 How would say a proactive creative present? 239 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,480 What would they get involved with within the network other 240 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,680 than sorting their own show out? Do you think, and I mean, you 241 00:13:05,680 --> 00:13:09,280 mentioned the Discord, which every network experience I've 242 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:13,760 been a part of hasn't really had that same experience where all 243 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,560 of the creators and producers are put into one place. 244 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:21,520 Most networks don't have such a niche environment, but being 245 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,240 active in the community is always helpful. 246 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,680 But being open to collaboration. And that collaboration doesn't 247 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:31,680 necessarily mean creating an episode together, but like to 248 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:36,080 help boost an Instagram post or to help somebody who's launching 249 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,760 a new show who we know has 0 downloads right now. 250 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,400 What can we do to help them now to get their voice heard quicker 251 00:13:44,680 --> 00:13:49,960 on my already established show? So knowing that the payback, the 252 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,200 reciprocal doesn't necessarily come now, but when that show 253 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,200 hits, like that's where the return opportunity is going to 254 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,640 come. What is the experience that you 255 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:03,400 have as a producer that you can share that will help somebody 256 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:07,000 next door to you? We just started as part of being 257 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,120 a part of the network is Community Sessions. 258 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:13,120 So you mentioned the producer sessions every month, which is 259 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,040 where we just kind of give the state of the nation of the of 260 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,000 the network and what's going on in terms of sales and growth and 261 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:20,960 opportunities and all that sort of thing that we're seeing. 262 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:25,480 But we've also started community sessions which are organized by 263 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,160 Damian and Carla on our team, but run by members in the 264 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,440 community who have the specific knowledge set. 265 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,720 So we've done one on sound design, we're prepping one on 266 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,080 trailer design, we're prepping one on contracting for 267 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,960 beginners. So we're trying to do a wide 268 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:45,000 range of topics that not everybody is involved with in 269 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,720 their day-to-day. So knowing that you don't have 270 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,880 the same experience as the person next to you, So what can 271 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,960 you do to help them if they have a question and support the 272 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,360 community through that method? Just sounds glorious and with 273 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,520 regards to the highly connectedness of it, what things 274 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:06,200 other than that and finance do you think can the creative team 275 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,480 get from actually just being a part of a network? 276 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:13,040 It, it is amazing to be in a room, be at this corridor on a 277 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:17,360 Zoom call with so many people who share a common vision. 278 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:21,840 For many of these people, it probably will remain a a side 279 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,760 hobby that they do. But for many of these people who 280 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,960 are, they've made leaps and bounds since they've come in and 281 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,480 seeing that growth among them all and knowing that doesn't 282 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,720 matter which one of these people, it is like they all have 283 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,360 the capability of doing that. Obviously there are things 284 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,240 stylistically and show wise that can help your show reach those. 285 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,320 But being a part of the community is the main selling 286 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,760 point of our network. Shawna and I are great. 287 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,360 We we talk all the time. Like I'm sure we've shared 288 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,120 everything that we have to share. 289 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,560 Some days it feels like, which is still beneficial for for 290 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,720 those who haven't haven't talked to us or haven't met us, but 291 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,120 talking to Joe from Midnight Burger or Pip from Amelia 292 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:06,120 Project, who have been doing this for quite some time in not 293 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,360 only the podcast space, but like in the theater space. 294 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:12,000 So coming from it, an already difficult creative environment 295 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:16,400 and moving into this one, seeing their success and being able to 296 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,800 message them or e-mail them as being a part of the network. 297 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,960 That makes the intro so much easier to make, I find than just 298 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,400 a cold e-mail of like, Hey, I like your stuff. 299 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,440 Can I ask you some questions as opposed to, Hey, we're part of 300 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,640 the network. Can we have a coffee? 301 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,800 And I've had so many people who come in and they're they're new, 302 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,760 they're green, they're like, oh, it's intimidating. 303 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:38,640 Well, yeah. But they're all very cool 304 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,560 people. And if you just, if you reach 305 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,160 out, chances are great you're going to find 15 minutes that 306 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:44,600 you can just sit and chat with them. 307 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:46,480 And maybe something more develops from that. 308 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,000 Yeah, that's it. Collaborative with people who 309 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,960 you perhaps have admired from afar that now maybe you have 310 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,880 slightly closer access to, to potentially make something even 311 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,280 more amazing that I love that so, so much. 312 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,520 And so let's just like shift our gaze to the to the finance side 313 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,560 of things. And how has that network enabled 314 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,240 folks to perhaps gain advertising or other support 315 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,720 that has given them some some recompense for their hard work? 316 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,200 There's several kind of levels, not tears, everybody's part of 317 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,160 the same area, but there's several levels of sales that we 318 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,400 do with the network. First is direct sold. 319 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,760 So like we're talking to a brand who's either come to us or we 320 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,240 have a relationship through another partner working on sales 321 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,440 that way, which is knowing who to talk to you is often the 322 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,160 hardest part. So we manage that relationship 323 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,400 and those conversations for all of our producers through our 324 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,880 hosting provider we have access to on Megaphone, it's the 325 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,320 Spotify audience network span, which is the backfill 326 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,000 advertising on our 19. It's task targeted audience 327 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,080 solutions. So that becomes a very scalable 328 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,720 model where if you are OK with radio style advertising, because 329 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,520 I know some folks are not, which is more the pre produced 330 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,320 advertising model, having those appear on your show, the more 331 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,520 you are able to grow your show, the more that follows you. 332 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,840 CPMS of 15 to $20 on that payout. 333 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,320 You can imagine as you start that's quite small, but as you 334 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,760 see success, as you do more drops, as you do you know you 335 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,000 gain more audience, those will follow with you. 336 00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:20,760 Additionally, we work with external partners like Sound 337 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,360 Stack and Red Circle who we have enterprise agreements with. 338 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,080 We manage those relationships and they're very similar 339 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,440 backfill style advertising that will follow the growth of your 340 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,320 show. But a lot of these come with 341 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,320 costs and for an independent producer to step in and approach 342 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,560 these companies, some of them may be out of reach in terms of 343 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:45,120 hosting coverage or it costs to turn certain features on with 344 00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:48,400 their hosts. So we, we cover that like it's, 345 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,960 we cover hosting for all of our producers, but we also make sure 346 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:56,000 that if we start working with a new partner like any initiation 347 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,200 or upfront cost like is covered by us and then the producers on 348 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,520 our network benefit from that. And how are the adverts chosen 349 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,920 to fit? Because some people won't want 350 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,240 specific topics or products and advertised on the show. 351 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,920 So how is that the? Biggest, the biggest difficulty 352 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:16,040 on our side is just managing who can and cannot have what. 353 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,400 So everything as being a part of our network is opt in. 354 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,360 Like we will not put something on your show unless we ask you 355 00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:25,920 first. That's through advertising, 356 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:27,680 that's through growth opportunities. 357 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,280 There's a few like blanket opt in's that we do. 358 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,440 But like as far as advertising goes, like if you tell us you 359 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,440 don't really don't want politics or credit or any of that on your 360 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,120 show, we make sure that we turn on every exclusion possible in 361 00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:46,080 any of these programs and vet any specific direct brand asks 362 00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:49,640 beforehand. That said, we all change, our 363 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,120 ideas change. So if I know you, Sarah, have 364 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:56,840 told me like I don't want this specific brand for some reason, 365 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,840 but a year goes by and that brand approaches me again, I'm 366 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,240 still, I'm going to come to you because I believe your show 367 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,560 could be a good fit and just see if you're still sitting in the 368 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:06,560 same place. When we first started the 369 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,960 network, like we were in a space where advertising was seen as 370 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,400 selling out. I come from a commercial radio 371 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,600 background, so I've never had that. 372 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,600 But people who have come from more creative space first, the 373 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,520 idea that whether it's self-imposed or from their 374 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:25,040 listeners, the talk of the space in that time, which I still see 375 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:26,920 across some Reddit threads and that sort of thing. 376 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:31,760 Like ads, but ads in our capitalist environment fuel a 377 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,240 lot of things. Yeah. 378 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:39,040 So separating that a little bit to be like this is the part of 379 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:43,360 the industry of that we have to engage with in a meaningful way, 380 00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:46,520 in a thoughtful way so that I can then turn around and 381 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,680 continue creating more of what I love, what my listeners love. 382 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,320 And hopefully one day that means that either I can be less 383 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,520 reliant on that because maybe my audience has grown and I can be 384 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,880 more reliant on a Patreon model or something like that. 385 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,080 Yeah. So taking those and finding the 386 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,560 happy medium where ideally nothing that I don't want on 387 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,440 there is going to get onto my show. 388 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,680 So I can benefit from the machine that is in order to 389 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,880 create art and make something beautiful in this space. 390 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:16,440 Right. There have been times when I 391 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,680 have been not with Faber and Folly but specific podcasts and 392 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,160 there'd be 3 adverts in a row and that's like I want to listen 393 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:25,920 to the show. So there were frustrations like 394 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:30,160 that, but I also understand that potentially that is what is the 395 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,680 only way that that particular creator or team is getting any 396 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,200 recompense really for the immense amount of work that 397 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,080 they're doing to make that come to life. 398 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:40,960 So there's got to be give somewhere. 399 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,320 And I think obviously the setup of podcasting in the days of 400 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,320 yore has made them free, and that has become the bane of our 401 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,320 lives since. But I used to listen to so and 402 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,200 so and there were never ads. It's like, well, that's, that's 403 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,240 great, yeah. I mean, and yeah, and you can 404 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,480 opt in to pay a certain amount and then you have no adverts and 405 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,720 that again goes to the creative teams and is helpful for 406 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:07,960 everybody and then you can have it how you want it. 407 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,680 And so many of our producers do offer that, right? 408 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,520 And that's people come into the network like we as a network 409 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:20,080 take a percentage of anything we bring you, which is the way that 410 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:21,640 it should be for a network. Yeah. 411 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,480 Otherwise, how are you going to? Anything you bring in though, 412 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,440 like be it Patreon or indie go go or Kickstarter, or you go out 413 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,760 and to your local game store and you sell an ad for yourself, 414 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,160 like that's yours. We will help you schedule it. 415 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,840 We will help you flight it. But I didn't do anything to earn 416 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:40,720 my cut. So yeah, that's your money. 417 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,120 That's really interesting. Yeah, it's. 418 00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:44,800 Something to kind of, yeah, I guess keep in the back of your 419 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,760 mind as you're having talks with networks of like, what do you 420 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:48,880 do? What do you take? 421 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,640 And if I go do something, is it seen as equitable on this side 422 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,800 or do I just get to keep it because you did the work, you 423 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,120 did the cold call, like I shouldn't take that percentage. 424 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:01,880 Yeah. Do you have any recommendations 425 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,680 for folks who might be on the hunt for sponsorship or 426 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,360 advertising? Are there any hot takes on 427 00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:09,520 things that definite? Try and see what happens. 428 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:17,120 A lot of what advertisers are looking for right now are shows 429 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:21,200 and this kind of goes in waves as the industry figures itself 430 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,360 out and then forgets and then figures itself out and forgets. 431 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,680 A lot of what advertisers are really looking for and pushing 432 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:32,880 for right now in today's May 2025 space is shows that are as 433 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:38,280 close to always on as possible, which is a very often difficult 434 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:43,360 ask for fiction creators and serialized creators because you 435 00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:47,040 can't just keep churning out scripts and production and all 436 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,120 of that. You often times you know shows 437 00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:52,720 are in on hiatus or it that first one takes you years to put 438 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,080 together and then and you finished six to 10 episodes and 439 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,520 you're like, well, I did that now I got to start three more 440 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,240 years of production to get the next one. 441 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:06,480 But in working to stretch out the release of a show can can 442 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,120 keep you in market longer. You know, there's a lot of 443 00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:12,880 thought that got to be weekly or I've got to be I've got to put 444 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,160 them all out at once that we've had conversations with producers 445 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,080 for, which is I guess it's great for a listening experience 446 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,360 because then you know that you've always got a season to go 447 00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:24,120 listen to. But if you're trying to get 448 00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:27,920 sponsorship and you're trying to do show growth overall, 449 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,360 spreading that out to bi weekly or even a monthly release if you 450 00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:34,960 don't have many episodes in the bank can help you stretch what 451 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,160 you already have while you continue to work on the next 452 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,680 season in the background. Oftentimes we talk to 453 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,680 advertisers and put forth a whole bunch of shows because we 454 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,640 will pitch everybody and anybody who's interested in a brand. 455 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,560 But oftentimes we see what comes back time and time again is they 456 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,320 remove the shows that aren't in release. 457 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,520 So looking at ways that you can stretch the time you're in 458 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,440 season, the biggest pushback I get from that is obviously like, 459 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,640 well, I have short episodes or I expect that my listeners will 460 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,840 want it weekly. But if we set that expectation 461 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,040 up front to say, you know, new episode monthly and you stick to 462 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,640 that, your listeners will continue to listen to you. 463 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,840 Audio fiction listeners are ravenous for storms. 464 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,720 Once we get somebody into into fiction, like once we get them 465 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,040 to learn that behavior of starting with one and pull them 466 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,120 in, like they will stick with with you. 467 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,080 If they if they love your story, they're going to come back for 468 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,680 that new episode, whether it's a week or a month or you drop them 469 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,880 all at once, like they're waiting there and they do have 470 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,960 other things to go listen to while you wait. 471 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:36,920 They're not going to stop listening to podcasts. 472 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:38,800 They're going to you're a trailer at the end of your show 473 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,440 and go listen to that one and then hear another and then make 474 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,560 their way back around to you. It's hard at first because you 475 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,040 have finite resources. You have a finite number of 476 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:49,920 episodes. But if you're looking to get 477 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:54,080 into this for a longer term for an advertising game, for a 478 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,680 sponsorship game, like coming up with ways that you can be on 479 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,960 more and have plans for future seasons, that's the other kind 480 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,960 of piece too, is. First season is tough. 481 00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:08,320 You have to grow it, you have to get people to know it. 482 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,160 You have to do all that. You know, you may be trying to 483 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,200 get advertisers, but oftentimes we tell people who are launching 484 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,760 a first new season to a new feed, it's like the first 485 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,840 season. We really have to just focus on 486 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,920 growth and put our time there. And then season 2 becomes easier 487 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,720 because you're not starting at 0, you're starting at 1000 or 488 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,280 10,000 or wherever you're starting at. 489 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,720 So that we now we can start having those conversations about 490 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,320 advertising to supplement everything that you're already 491 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,720 putting in. But have that plan for season 492 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:39,040 1-2 and three or beyond in your mind of like how long do I want 493 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,240 this story to go? And if it's one and done, it's 494 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,440 one and done. But know that the next one that 495 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,200 you launch into a new feed is going to be just as hard a big 496 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,320 success of like shows like unwell, who has been on forever, 497 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,520 but then ended Unwell, you know, and started a new feed. 498 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,920 They, I helped, I was there with them as they were doing it. 499 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,280 And there's a, there's a stress, there's a tension, there's a, 500 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,920 there's a like, are people going to come? 501 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,920 Because it. It was different than 510 years 502 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,480 ago, but the audience is finding them like and there's like, you 503 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:15,200 can see the growth and you use that larger audience feed to 504 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,360 launch your next idea. So what can you build that you 505 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:22,160 can make sustainable to run for a long time that can help you 506 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,440 branch off and do other things later if that's your goal? 507 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,720 Yeah. Could you give any examples of 508 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:32,680 what the take home might be for a creative who's got, let's say 509 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:37,480 A10 episode run of something? Can you give any examples of 510 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,480 that at all? I would start talking to other 511 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,920 creatives in the space. It's hard, especially if you're 512 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,520 not a part of a network, but it's it's hard. 513 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,240 It becomes easier, especially if you reach out to anybody in the 514 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,920 Fable network. Like we all go through the same 515 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,120 conversations with me as as anybody else, but reach out to 516 00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:57,200 folks in the space that you admire. 517 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,880 Ask for that 15 minute coffee. Come with some questions. 518 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,880 Find a group of podcasts that can help you launch that show 519 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:08,320 that can do a promo swap or a feed drop for you for your first 520 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,600 or second episode. Make sure you've got a couple in 521 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,600 the feed so that people can really dig in. 522 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,480 But line those up for the beginning of your launch of your 523 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,960 show and you'd be that I often hear is that Oh well, I, I don't 524 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,760 have another show. I, I don't, I can't return it in 525 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:24,320 in a good amount of time. I can't. 526 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:29,400 I can't, I can't, I can't. But what you have to remember is 527 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,280 those shows that are very successful were once not 528 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,120 successful. And them and their and their 529 00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:38,280 grandparents were the only ones that downloaded it on day one. 530 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,320 Maybe unless they launched with like huge budgets. 531 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,280 But like most of us, for most of us, that's not the case. 532 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,920 It's like you trying to get your friends to download it like 533 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,080 spoofing their phones being like how many more can I get just to 534 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,760 kind of like tap into an algorithm or something like 535 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,920 which? There's no way to tap. 536 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:56,200 You're in too many things, Sarah. 537 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,640 We can't keep up, so it's right. Yeah, it's. 538 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,080 Like ohh but listen to this one, it's really good. 539 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,600 Yeah, ohh, I'm, I'm the same. Like my voice pops up in so many 540 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,560 places and I in my own discord. It's like, well, I heard you 541 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,320 over here. Like, Oh yeah, I I did that. 542 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,240 It's funny. Trying to develop that 543 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:15,920 community, right? If you're not a part of a 544 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,080 network, like what can you do with the people that you can get 545 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,000 access to? And there's, there's an e-mail 546 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,400 in every RSS feed. Open it up in a browser, do a 547 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,560 little control F for e-mail and you'll find it, which is usually 548 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,200 the person's personal or like business personal e-mail that 549 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,520 you'll get in front of them and pick their brain. 550 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,080 Find out what they did to launch. 551 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,800 Find out where the point was that they saw that that curve 552 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,560 start to go up of people finding them and discovering them and 553 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,920 what they felt that was that really launched them. 554 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:51,120 Because that can help you set a few stones in front of you that 555 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,240 you can leap to that are easier from there. 556 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,800 Anything you can do to make it not so scary and unknown? 557 00:29:58,040 --> 00:29:59,400 Is really. The key. 558 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,280 Yeah. And belief in your product, too, 559 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,120 the thing that you've spent your brain output and teamwork 560 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,120 creating. You know, I'm sure there is an 561 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:09,560 audience for everybody. Yeah. 562 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,920 And I know some people are really disappointed because they 563 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,240 get, you know, 20 downloads or whatever it might be. 564 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:20,240 And it is about the tenacious kind of keep going and keep 565 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,440 trying to do all the things that this program itself and other 566 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:24,960 folks are suggesting in the space. 567 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,080 And obviously what you've just stated as well. 568 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,000 But yeah, it is difficult, isn't it, to kind of maintain that. 569 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,760 And you've already said that you do consider that there isn't a 570 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,000 potential cap on downloads for joining you for for some 571 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,920 reasons. And do you think downloads are 572 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,280 important? Do you really think gaining more 573 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,120 audience is more important than anything? 574 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,840 Well it is and you're looking for not just downloads help from 575 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,560 a milestone success from and you know what can you sell to 576 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,960 advertisers success. But I think, myself included, 577 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,040 there has to be another reason that you're doing this show. 578 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:03,160 Yeah, to to remove success from the number of downloads or 579 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:04,960 impressions you can deliver every month. 580 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,560 My personal shows aren't the largest, like they're, they're 581 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,880 mid, mid tier as far as the network goes. 582 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:15,040 Where the success has really come from is the community 583 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:19,240 behind my show that we've just organically created since we've 584 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,520 been releasing it. When did we start 2017? 585 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,880 So we've been going for eight years now. 586 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,280 But there are people in that specific Discord community who 587 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,080 have met there. Who have started weekly games 588 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,600 and have been playing for three to five years, who have gotten 589 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,400 married, who have had kids, who I feel like through this 590 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,440 parasocial bit of a distance relationship like that, I know. 591 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,800 And if I if I met them on the street, like I would be probably 592 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,920 really good friends with them. Like that is the gel. 593 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,520 Like seeing that and every time a new episode comes out, 594 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,080 everybody in there laughing about the things that me and my 595 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,880 friends were laughing about, like they were a part part of 596 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,040 it. I do an actual play. 597 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,240 So it's like, you know, we try and set it up so that people are 598 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,680 can feel like they are sitting at the table with us. 599 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,560 Yeah, brilliant and. I think that's really come 600 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,080 through in the not only that and like just spending time with my 601 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,200 friends doing something cool every week like. 602 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,280 That's the level. Of success. 603 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,120 For me, the growing success that comes behind it is it feels like 604 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,040 just gravy some days. Yeah, I mean. 605 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,120 Decouple the numbers if you can. Yeah, it's like what is 606 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,160 important, isn't it? And the fact that a lot of folks 607 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,800 have said to me, you know, like if you had 80 people in a room, 608 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,600 that's a lot of people in a room listening to you doing your 609 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,880 thing. So yeah, I think it's sort of 610 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,360 take breaking it down to thinking about that being in 611 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,120 front of someone because you are a mic right now. 612 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,080 You know, people might be listening to this in from Abu 613 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,520 Dhabi in Iran and all sorts of wonderful places, various places 614 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,200 across the US who are really enjoying the content here. 615 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,400 And it's just exciting to think that you might be, you know, 616 00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,960 you're doing shopping, running, walking on the beach, walking 617 00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:02,720 with the dog, chilling and. Joining with them in a in a 618 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,440 personal moment, in their day. It's lovely, it's so special. 619 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,880 So thank you for listening firstly and switching into this 620 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,440 and I hope this discussion has been really useful. 621 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,880 I just wonder if if there is a listener, they're kind of so 622 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,120 inspired, how can they support the Fable and Folly network if 623 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,960 they're not even a creative that wants to to join you, but feels 624 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,280 like for the 'cause we want to support the Fable and Folly 625 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,160 cause. Yeah, no, I mean, anything you 626 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,520 can do, like if you have a specific creator that you listen 627 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,920 to, like find that creator's Patreon or next Kickstarter 628 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,920 campaign, like go support that. That's the most direct way to 629 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,600 support the people that you love the shows for. 630 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,400 If you want to support the network as a whole, the easiest 631 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,280 way is to go through Fable and Folly Plus, which is our ad free 632 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,840 offering for the network that gets paid out based on on who 633 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:52,560 you listen to. So one month you listen to 634 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,640 Midnight Burger, you burn through all their shows, more of 635 00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:00,000 your monthly or yearly fee will go to that creator and then you 636 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,640 move on to somebody else down the list. 637 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,440 But a lot of the shows on the network are a part of that. 638 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,239 It is a great way to not only support people based on your 639 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:15,000 listening for a relatively low fee of $4.00 a month so you can 640 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,280 do that. And then also you may find new 641 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,920 shows that you would have otherwise never stumbled across 642 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,320 because it's out of your general interest, but they're all 643 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,440 amazing. What are your favorite success 644 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,560 stories from The Favor and Fully Network so far? 645 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,199 It's so many. I think a lot of the shows that 646 00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:37,040 I've mentioned, like from when they've come into the network, 647 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:41,120 thinking of like seeing the rise of a show like Midnight Burger, 648 00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:43,040 Yeah, like they came in and they were not. 649 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,239 They were not unknown when they came in, but they came in at a 650 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,960 point and gave Joe some tools and best practices and have just 651 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,520 seen his show skyrocket. And the community behind his 652 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:58,920 show is so amazing. Like anything Joe will promote 653 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,720 in network or out, his fan base is there to support it as well. 654 00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:06,480 And we've seen them move to other much smaller shows have 655 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,280 helped give them a boost, which is huge. 656 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:11,920 Like it's amazing to have that in the community. 657 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,640 The Unwell team launching a new show from having released Unwell 658 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,160 for so long, jumping into the scary world of like, we got to 659 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,080 start this feed up on our own again. 660 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,120 But seeing that and then, I mean, we're talking to some 661 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,640 producers right now who are going to be launching on the 662 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,800 network. I don't have any details that I 663 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,400 can provide right now, but there's some cool news stories 664 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,960 coming up that I think people are really gonna love. 665 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:36,800 Brilliant. Well, we'll put all links to 666 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,280 favour fully on the on the show notes and anything else that you 667 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,400 want to send me, Russ, to get people invigorated and excited 668 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,000 about the whole network experience. 669 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:48,560 Ping those onto and links to your works too. 670 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,680 If folks haven't found dungeons and jargons and. 671 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:52,440 End of Time and other bothers show end. 672 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,600 Of time and other bothers yeah you're great in that and yeah 673 00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,080 there's a lot of exciting things to enjoy isn't there so so have 674 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,080 a good delve and. If you're listening and you, you 675 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,480 just need a new show, come on over to the website. 676 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,200 And what I sometimes do is if I'm not sure if I'm in the, what 677 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,680 I'm in the mood for is I'll just go on and scroll through the 678 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,640 shows and hit stop. Like just click on something as 679 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:15,880 it scrolls down the game. Show. 680 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,640 A bit of a game show, but there are so many out there, it is 681 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,960 hard to decide. But like, thank you for 682 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,520 continuing to listen. Thank you for supporting the 683 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,120 creators that are a part of the network and outside of the 684 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,880 network, like every listen, every comment, every rating, 685 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,760 every join of a Discord. It does a lot. 686 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,200 Sometimes it can feel like screaming into a void. 687 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,200 But when you have people who are there to say, hey, that was 688 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,680 really fun or that was really cool, I liked when you did this 689 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,680 thing. Like, it can go a long way. 690 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,680 It's a little scary to do it, but you can do it, Yeah. 691 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,160 Thank you Ross. It's been absolute joy to speak 692 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,520 to you and and thank you for all the hard work that you do, you 693 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,400 know, to support other creatives working and as long as you've 694 00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,280 got time for your own creative soul too. 695 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:00,920 That's that's the most important thing. 696 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,000 I try and make time. I stay up very late, I get up 697 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:06,400 very early. It all gets done. 698 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,280 There's. No point going to bed before 699 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,120 2:00 AM, is there? Yeah, I'm getting older now 700 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:13,680 though, so it's making it harder. 701 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:19,680 I feel that 27 inside, I was 22. Now I'm 27 just gone up gently, 702 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,800 incrementally. Well, listen, happy creating and 703 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:29,000 happy on boarding and, you know, making the the growth continue 704 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,480 because I think it's a brilliant, brilliant thing on 705 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,640 the audio drama landscape. And and yeah, you and the team, 706 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,400 Sean, Eli, everybody, Daniel, I think just yeah, it's, it's a 707 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,600 wonderful thing to be a part of. And if that's something you want 708 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,680 to do, well, it's given you perhaps a slice of, of the of 709 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,920 what you can look forward to and all to set up your own network 710 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,840 and do the same kind of thing with some other likewise shows. 711 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,880 You know, I think there's no harm in being ambitious and 712 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,040 trying that. So, yeah, thank you so much for 713 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,800 joining us. Have a wonderful creative 714 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,840 weekend and beyond. Thanks so much, Sarah. 715 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,840 Well, well, another fun episode just finished. 716 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,240 Oh, don't worry, there's more to come on Discord and Orphonic and 717 00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:24,320 Wasteland and Jonathan Pesar and oh so much more. 718 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,920 Please contact me if you'd like to appear on any future episodes 719 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,920 of NDAF. Next season is all about the how 720 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,680 to from the very beginning of a process to the very, very end, 721 00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:38,840 and it'll take me probably a year to make, but I would love 722 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,440 you to rate and review. If you like this podcast, please 723 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,320 pass it on to other people who may also find it useful. 724 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,560 The whole point of it is for it to be useful, so if it's not 725 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,960 being shared, it can be less useful than if people shared. 726 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:55,480 I'd really appreciate that if you're able. 727 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,800 Thank you very much to Twiglet and the Audio Drama Hub and AJ 728 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,440 Fedalgo, who share lots of my episodes. 729 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:03,880 I really appreciate you very much. 730 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,640 Thank you. Thank you to Andy White for 731 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,560 editing this wonderful episode today. 732 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,640 Made it sharper, more concise. Beautiful work. 733 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:11,360 Thanks, Andy. Andy makes the Walker Mysteries. 734 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:12,840 If you haven't found that, have a hunt. 735 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:14,520 There's a link in the show notes. 736 00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:16,400 Thank you for listening. Bye.