Welcome to Appalachia and the land of ancient curses, burial,
mounds of giants, mysterious artifacts, legends of cryptids,
spiritual warfare, the paranormal, principalities,
witchcraft, portals, and seven friends caught in the middle of
it all. This is my book Terror by Night.
It's my first fiction novel. I hope you guys check it out.
It's available on Amazon in paperback, e-book, or hardback.
I had a lot of fun writing this and it is full of research
material on that entity known as Lilith.
Also tons of notes on spiritual warfare.
It's close to my heart. I had a lot of fun writing this
book and my wife loves it. There's something for everybody
in it. It's got action, adventure, lost
love, and warfare. Pick up a copy today, check it
out, and let me know what you think.
God bless. Isaiah 46 says my people are
destroyed from a lack of knowledge.
So now that we have this knowledge, we have to remember
to walk in Second Timothy 17, which says, For God has not
given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a
sound. Mind when he turned his back
from shoulder to shoulder. Look like as wide as the
tailgate of a truck. Good thing let out the most
blood curdling mind blowing spine.
Tingling string that you've ever.
Heard in your life and it cut through me like a knife.
And I knew that they were going to take me.
I just knew it. And then the next thing I can
remember is being levitated. Well, when I look in there, I
see two big odds staring back at me.
Hello and welcome. You're listening to the Bump
Podcast, a place for the believers of the unexplained
monsters and paranormal. Join us and we'll go face to
face with what goes Bump in the Night.
All right, Doctor Natalie Atwell, thank you so much for
coming on the show with me again.
We've been trying this. I looked back in the emails and
it was Halloween when I guess it's OK to say her name.
When Madison sent me a little a little e-mail that said you were
writing a new book and it's going to come out this July,
it's called. I'm going to try not to look at
my notes. Is it mental health and the
unseen realm? Is that what?
So that's been the, you know, debate for a while, but it
actually is not going to be called that because the
publisher wanted to have a very strong title, which I was super
thankful for. So it's actually going to be
called Humanity Under Siege, Spiritual War in the battle for
the. Yes, yes, yes.
Humanity under siege. That is a strong title.
I'll write that down real quick. People have ideas that are
smarter than you. You know you have to listen to
them, right? Right.
Yeah, it's like I, I wrote that book that it was a novel, right?
It was, it's a, it's a plausible fiction kind of novel.
And I thought I was done with it.
I was, I was as happy as a lark with it.
And I took it downstairs to my wife.
I said, hey, I want you to read my book, you know, before I hit
publish. And she said, honey, this is an
outline. It's not a book.
And I was like, wait, what are you talking about?
And she's like, go back and thank God for her wisdom.
You know, I, I added like another 60 pages, like I left
out so much stuff. But you're right.
When people are, you know what, they got a better idea.
Take the criticism and go with it.
Yeah. Oh, gosh, yes.
Humanity under siege. That's going to that's going to
catch attention, right? I hope so.
It's because I think it's an important message.
Yes, yes, and I want you to tell me all about the message.
I have a brief outline here, but I just I don't know I'm a fan of
what you do. I'm a fan of your, your work in
the mental health field against spiritual entities or whatever
the enemy, however you want to phrase it.
I think it's it's unique and it's so needed.
So I'll shut up and let you talk because you're on here to talk.
So I'll go ahead. Oh, wow.
Well, thank you. It's it's a subject that's near
and dear to my heart because I've experienced it.
I've watched it happen in my practice.
And by that, I mean, I've watched clients struggle with
mental health issues that were really rooted in spiritual
darkness. And when you're trained as a
mental health professional and you're going through these
treatment methodologies and, and different modalities, you don't
necessarily understand when you see a problem and things aren't
working and the client has tried everything.
And I really feel like the Lord led me to study the the Unseen
Realm with Doctor Michael Heizer in detail, in depth.
And when I did that, it really gave me a different biblical
theological framework and lens to view mental health problems
where I went back and I traced all mental health problems back
to the three rebellions. And so that's a part of the book
is explaining my journey of how did I come about, you know,
treating certain problems in different ways and how do we do
that through formal assessment and and biblical treatment.
So the book really starts out with what I was noticing within
practice as a mental health clinician.
It then transitions to what have I noticed in society, for
example, the massive increase in suicide rates.
Yes. Like, you know, there's
something going on there we need to look at.
And then also within the church. I mean, if you've been around
church, you know, for a long time or for at last at least the
last five years and you followed certain leaders, there's been a
mass like falling of all these people.
And so I addressed that in the in the book as well.
And in terms of like looking at narcissism and spiritual abuse
and just the things, again, as an observer, observer of humans,
what I've noticed. And then I go into what the
biblical framework is of the divine council and how where I
see these problems rooted because there's a lot of power
in knowing where they originated and and so that you can
understand how to deal with it. Because, I mean, I know we've
talked about in the past, but a lot of people believe the lie
that mental health problems are like inside of you.
And that makes people believe they are the problem, right?
Yeah. I really wanted to bring some
clarity to that to say, no, actually there's unseen
influences that are impacting you that you need to be aware
of. Now, that doesn't take out your
own free will and your choice because you do have a choice to
engage in simple behaviors or in darkness, or you can choose to
serve the most high lives. So there there's definitely that
too. And I talk a lot about that in
the book, but we miss out on understanding the spiritual dark
forces that are influencing people.
So that theological framework really goes into the second part
of the book that then leads into, OK, now that we have this
understanding of there's darkness in the world that's
showing up in church, that's showing up in mental health
practice. Now we have the theological
framework for it. What do we do with that?
And that's when the the last two sections I'll talk about, OK,
what are some implications for mental health when it comes to
those topics? And how do we differentiate
between disorders and darkness really?
And how does that look like when it comes to treatment?
So that the last part of the book is really treat treatment
focused, which involves the other influences assessment that
I created to be able to just really do a formal assessment to
see if there are some things there.
We're not sure where it's coming from.
That's amazing, you know, and I, I wish other people would see
what you're doing here and, and model more, more help after what
you're, what you're laying out here with these formal
assessments. And you're right there.
There is a growing darkness right in mental health.
People are hurting themselves more families are falling apart
strong like God fearing families.
I heard of 1 today that it hit me out of nowhere, like I
couldn't believe that anything could penetrate this family like
it did and it inside churches around here.
I've seen a shift from I've seen the name of God taken off of
churches, you know, and I, I hope that nobody gets mad at me
for saying that because I got people that live around here
that listen to the show. But when the name of God's taken
off of the church, what are you left with?
You know, and I know it's not about the name, but it needs to
be more than just like, I don't know, a community event, you
know, it needs to be God centered.
Are you finding like I know you see patterns in probably
everything are are you finding like specific demons responsible
for some of these mental health classifications?
Like do they have names, you know, do you call these things
out eventually? Like I would love it if you
could explain. And I know for confidentiality,
I don't want you giving me any, any person's business, but could
you give me some examples of things that you have run into
and been able to to help walk people through?
Yeah. And I will say I am a trained
clinical mental health professional.
I'm not a deliverance minister or anything like that and I
don't claim to be. I do talk a little bit about
that in my book because a lot of times people get sent to
deliverance ministers and they really aren't ready for that.
So I have some like guidelines for them to think about trauma
and how to view that, to do that well, because I do believe there
are instances where that and applied and people can do that
in a healthy way. But so I say that to say I don't
necessarily like name specific things.
Things haven't jumped out to me as names when, you know, I'm
dealing with someone who's battling darkness.
And you know, I also want to be careful with not scaring people
when they're here to make sure they're safe, but.
For sure. You know, you have to be careful
with certain language things and for licensure boards, but I'm
not going to shy away from the truth.
But how we go about that is we call them other influences.
And then eventually we lead into letting people know these are
evil influences. And you know, I do talk a little
bit in the book also about what the difference is between
demonization and like oppression and things like that.
Yes, that's wonderful. How is it received?
When you tell somebody a luck, these boxes aren't getting
checked. So this is leaning more
spiritual, you know, is it well received?
You know, love is a long surrender and love and in
building a good relationship with someone is the foundation
of a healthy healing environment.
And that takes, so we go into the counseling, you know,
relationship with someone by taking our time with them and we
build the relationship. We use the normal mental health
modalities that we've been trained in.
And then when we get to a point where we feel like we're stuck
or they've, you know, said some things that were like, it's
glaringly obvious that there could be some spiritual darkness
there. Like, for example, they're
playing video games with Ouija boards in them or something like
that. They're placing curses on other
people. And you know, so if there's
something glaringly obvious, then we will do the assessment
and the assessment that assessments are used in clinical
practice to help diagnose, to help people understand problems,
to help, you know, really be able to frame a problem in a
certain way or find out what the roots are.
So when we do that assessment, then we can say to the person,
hey, we think these might be some influences that we need to
talk about. And then depending on where that
person is spiritually, we can definitely have some more
conversations about demonization, about evil, what
you know, all that stuff. But we don't want to put this
treatment off the table for, for people who maybe don't have the
language that we would have within the church context.
And to be honest, even some people within the church context
don't have some of the language for that, or they don't want to
talk about it. I mean, let's be honest, there's
a large part of the church that don't even talk about the enemy.
And I'm not saying we should glorify him, but we do need to
know that there's an evil influence out there, that
there's an enemy. Yeah, there is.
There is an enemy. And you're so right.
It's like it's unless you're in church, and sometimes unless
you're really deep in your home church, it's hard to see.
There's so many varying levels of understanding and belief
inside each little church. It don't matter if there's 25
people or 2500 people, everybody's at a different step
or a different level of belief. And for an outsider to look at,
they were like, oh, they're a Christian.
That is such an umbrella term. You're right, if you're talking
to somebody who is of the faith, that doesn't mean that there are
they're open to the reality of the unseen realm of, of dark
spiritual forces. It doesn't mean that they're
open to discussing it. It doesn't mean that, you know,
I know people that think I'm a Christian.
They can't touch me. And then there's people that
are, I'm a Christian and I'm scared to death of it.
And then there's people that, you know, face it, realize it
for what it is, stand against it, you know, and it's and they
share a Pew sometimes, you know, it's like, so it would be really
difficult, I would imagine. And then you have the whole
legal side of things, right? And professional side of things.
It you, you walk a fine line, but I'm so glad that you do it.
Yeah, and it there may come a day when it cost me a lot more
than it than it already has. And, you know, I think that's a
part of what we have to weigh when we're walking faithfully
with the Lord in general. But I think it's so important
because people are hurting. And that's what I've seen in
practice. That's what my other therapists
who work with me are seeing as well.
And so if God's shown us something that can be helpful to
someone, why not share that with them so they can walk in freedom
where they can be healed in a lot of ways.
And I think that's where people are open to it when they have
been battling with something for so long or they have not been
able to find answers and they're just tired or they don't
understand, you know, why they're not getting relief to a
certain problem. And so if we can go and find the
root of evil influence and help them to deal with that
biblically and in a good politically evidence based way,
we're going to do it. Sorry to say absolutely again,
yes, yes, I'm glad you're doing it because that's in in a sense
what you're doing. You're you're carrying out the
Commission right. You're going forward and you're
you're shedding light on the darkness.
You're you're sharing the truth with people.
You know, you might not be hitting them over the head of
the Bible. You know, it might be like, you
know, out foul spirit or anything like that, but you're
making people aware, you know, and that's, that's part of the
process. Now you said that there's,
there's guidelines and I would, I would like for you to touch on
that if you, if you can. I know it's hard to, I'm not
trying to put you on the spot like guidelines before
deliverance. That is so wise because
deliverance can get real hot real quick.
How would you, how would you know it's it's time to maybe
recommend someone for deliverance rather than just
continue to, to, to dig it out? Because once it's exposed, what
do you do with it? Because I, I asked that because
like for me personally, I had to go through like a self
deliverance. I knew nobody that touched
anything like that, you know, so I got counsel from a, a man that
I've trusted and he, he told me like, OK, this is what you need
to do and hang on your life's going to get turned upside down.
Oh boy, was he right. But you know, you had I, I did
these, I, I walked through a self deliverance, glory to God.
But it, it helped, you know, and things did it, it got turned
upside down, but things got better through that, right?
Because it's a, it's a process, like you say, it takes a long
time. So I guess my question is, what
is, what's the guidance like before you say tell somebody
like, OK, you need to go in your closet and speak against this
right now. You know what I mean?
You go, go repent, humble yourself and go to war.
How? How's that look?
So to be honest, for us, like I said before, we go through the
normal mental health treatments and then if we feel like there's
something, some spiritual darkness rooted or some issues
they need to deal with, we'll do the assessment So we'll know,
OK, these are the things we need to go after.
We need to tackle these different things.
And then we follow really, I would say probably what would
look like a deliverance model for some people where it's, I
think it's biblical based in like Mark 4 where there's the
confession of what's going on. So we, we would, for someone
who's not a believer, we might say, you know, that's a part of
storytelling. Or if they don't, if they're not
a believer, you know, we're hoping to get them to that place
if that's my God's will, if they're open to that.
But not that we're here just trying to convert people or
anything. But if they're open to it, we
can refer them to a pastor obviously as well for that.
But we will talk about confession or storytelling and
then we'll talk about repentance and what that really looks like.
We explained to them casting out and renouncing like, and we use
terms that aren't, don't make it so spiritualized so they can
understand it in more of their language.
Like, Hey, there's, you might have some beliefs that are
affiliated with this thing. Those are the things that we
need to work on, you know, renouncing goals or getting rid
of those, kind of cutting off the affiliation you might have
with that belief or with that, that passing happened.
And, and we talk about combating laws with truth.
And so I've created like worksheets and, and different
things to really make it a process that's easy for them to
walk through, but also using cognitive behavioral techniques,
which is evidence based treatment of, you know, really
helping them to understand behaviors, thoughts and how that
looks and how to change those things.
And, you know, we insert the vocal belief in that, which I
think is so powerful. But when it comes to guidelines,
one of the things I'll talk about with Deliverance is
honestly making sure a deliverance minister, if, if
they get someone, they know when to refer as well to a mental
health professional and, and teaching them things like or, or
suggesting to them things like use trauma and foreign language.
And that's, that's a simple thing that people can just shift
in how they're talking to someone.
I mean, if we really look at how Jesus spoke to others, I would
just argue that was trauma and formal.
He was understanding where they were and meaning them where they
were. Also things like don't force
someone to tell a story. Don't if they're not ready to
tell it. If they're not ready, like you
have to be careful about trying to cast something out of them
that they're not willing to. They have to be willing.
Yes, yes, yes. And they have to be ready to
share their story. And often it takes a long time
of building trust before they're even able to form words for what
has happened to them. It especially if it's, you know,
abuse that's happened in the the guise of the darkness or under
that umbrella. Yeah, I think you're you're spot
on with the whole building that trust, building that rapport.
You might not be the first, you know, mental health professional
that they've seen. And so that, you know, who knows
for what reason they've, they've made it to your door, you know,
you got all the guards up, you know, and yeah, I, I just, I'm
just a huge fan of yours. You know, your approach it, it
just seems like it's, it's well thought out.
Obviously, when, when you're doing these assessments and
you're finding connections and you're starting to see that
there's other influence. Do you feel like there is a
generational influence that goes beyond like, I guess you could
use the word curses or because I'm asking that one because this
is another question that I have, not necessarily for myself, but
something that I've noticed. People are quick to say that
there's generational curses, but they also seem to just follow
the habits of who they were raised around, you know, like,
is it a curse or is it poor learned behavior, right?
Do you face stuff like that? Yeah.
And you know, I think sometimes we need to differentiate between
the two and sometimes we don't. Sometimes we need to just let
people know, like rather you believe this is a curse or not.
I, I like to use the word influence because it's just a
little softer and landing. But let's be honest, I mean, I
don't think even someone who's not Christian, they're not even
religious. If they had an alcoholic father,
they would likely say that could be a curse on my family.
Yeah. So it, it just depends on the
situation whether you can use that language or not.
But the work doesn't change. Rather, you have, you know, if
it feels like a curse on your family, the work still is the
same and you've got to break that off.
It is hard because who you are is shaped by who you love.
And so many of the things that we do are things we learned from
those who helped raise us or who we were around.
The good news is that if you are around more positive influences
now, those things can change. And that's a beautiful thing.
I'll talk about that in the book as well, about epigenetics and
like the neurobiology of change and how I mean, within the
context of healthy relationships, like true change
can still happen. And that's, that's the idea of
that healthy relationship with Jesus.
That's how she is. So you could have a generational
purse. Absolutely.
But it can be broken off. But that doesn't mean it's going
to be easy. And it it's sometimes it takes
walking that out every single day.
Wow, what a great answer. You know, 'cause that I guess in
its own way, influence to do bad habits is a curse, right?
You, you nailed it. That's that's a great
explanation. Yeah.
I greatly appreciate that, that that helps me understand a
little bit better. So let me ask you personally.
And I, I hate, I feel like this is like more interview style
than conversation. And I don't mean for it to be
that way. I just, I just, I don't know,
I'll get questions pop in my head and I just want to ask
because, you know, like I said, you're a wealth of knowledge,
you know, in your role as a mental health professional, I, I
don't know if I should call you counselor, therapist,
psychologist. I don't, I don't know which,
which term to use. But in your role, how do you
deal with the heaviness and the, the repercussions of doing this?
Because I know that has to be hard on and I'm not trying to
put it on you. I'm saying the reality that
there's there's going to be kickback.
Man, thanks for asking that. I'll try not to get emotional
and answering that because to be honest, I haven't always done it
well. And that's something that I'm
still continuing to walk with the Lord in and in one way is I
have amazing prayer warriors who surround me and thank God for
them. I mean, I really feel like they
go on, you know, interceding on my behalf.
And my aunt is an amazing prayer warrior.
And she is, you know, she's retired.
She used to work in ministry in a church.
And one of her goals is she comes and prays over every
office of my practice. She leads our staff devotions
every month. And I can always, you know,
reach out to her and ask for prayer.
And just knowing she, I mean, she's anointed our door doors
with all at times here. And, you know, just knowing that
has been a huge help. And as you know, I have to stay
in the word. I have to stay in the word every
day. I have to be a part of a growing
body of believers, like we were not meant to do this alone.
And so even like my small group in my church are so helpful to
me and having godly friends that will call me out on things that
are set. We'll say things like are you
resting? You're taking too much on
because that honestly, the enemy fights me a lot that way.
And, and even things like listening to the Holy Spirit
when he's trying to correct me. And those are not, you know, we
were talking about a little bit before the show recording, like
sometimes it's like, Ouch. I felt that little spanking
Lord, you know, I'm from the South and we got spankings
growing up, you know, so and it, it hurts, but I am so thankful
because I know it's from the heart of the Father.
Like, you know, I was telling you earlier about when the Lord
convicted me about humility and he said, you're not asking me
for help every day and that's why you're overwhelmed.
Stop trying to do it along your own.
And so it's like just being sensitive to the Lord.
But I've, I have had to say no to things more in the past year
than I've ever had to before. And I know that's because the
work is heavy. And when it's heavy, you just
can't carry as much. It's kind of like really
weightlifting, you know, when you're carrying a heavier
weight, can't carry as many if you carry a lot of little
things, you can carry a lot more quantity because so that's kind
of been the the metaphor of the analogy.
God's filming. And again, I'm still trying to
and I think doing that work, you know, like you were saying on
your own, like God deliver me from the things that.
And at the beginning of this process, to be honest with you,
I did a deep dive in my own life.
I was going back generations and really doing that in my own
self. And it it was powerful and hard
and eye opening, soul crushing, you know, but so powerful.
And yeah. You know, you brought up
something that's super important and we all need to learn how to
do it. And that's to say no.
You know, it's a healthy thing to, to know our limitations to,
to find that balance. Because we, I say we, I, I have
a bunch of kids at school, right?
I have a bunch of people at the church.
I have a bunch of people that e-mail me on the show.
There's only so many people you can help, right?
And when you try to save the world, you can't feel from an
empty cup, right? Or from an empty vase.
There, there, there's a saying something like that.
It, it's hard to feel from an empty vase.
So when you're diminished, you're not being a help to
anybody anyway. So if you need to say no, it's
OK. It's true.
And if you think about even the tactic, tactics that the people
in the world used to come against their enemies, and
especially if they're trying to get out secrets or they're
trying to really harm in it and get somethings out.
Like one of the biggest methods of torture or one of the
harshest is actually sleep deprivation.
And if you look at how sleep deprived the nation is, I mean,
is that also possibly an attack of the enemy, especially, you
know, in Christian nations, I think it could be argued that it
is, you know, beyond just things like sleep paralysis that to me
are more obvious spiritual darkness.
But yeah, I think especially for believers and and there's so
many even church leaders today and people in ministry who are,
they feel like there are so many things they have to tackle.
And I think the enemy is really using busyness and a lack of
Sabbath or lack of rest to cause them to not be as effective for
the Kingdom. That's so true.
You know, I have. There's a buddy of mine I go to
church with. He's another Deacon and my wife,
both of them, my wife hasn't officially lost her job.
It's a really long, complicated thing and I'm going to spare
everybody from it. But in December, she was told to
go home. She's been a nurse for 20 years.
She works for the federal government.
And she was told to go home because she declined a flu shot.
First time in 20 years she was told to go home.
But when she was when she was told that and she hasn't been
back since, which is the long story.
But she she said she felt like she just received you need to
rest, right. That's that's what she got about
a month ago. One of the deacons at our church
out of the blue, he gets furloughed.
He gets sent home with A to be continued kind of notice for his
job. And he said as soon as he got
that and he hadn't talked to my wife in detail about that, about
her, her thing. But he, he said, as soon as I
heard those words, he said it was like God told me, you need
to rest, you know, And So what you're saying is it's hitting
home for me right now. And I, I know it's going to be
hitting home for other people here in this.
I hope so. And and I say it out of again,
not always doing that well and I feel like it's a tug of war for
me where I get to a season. I'm like, I can handle more.
I have, you know, these visionary ideas do things and
then I get overwhelmed and I like have to pull back.
So it does feel like all the war a lot.
But I mean, I do find that that is one way that the enemy
battles me when I'm fatigued and tired and not rested well or
haven't spent that just I'm with the Lord, just being with him in
his presence. It doesn't end up being well for
me, right? You, you're right, you're right,
because I mean, if you're working, you're working, you're
working and you're too tired to make it to church in midweek
service and you're too tired to go to women's group or you're
too tired for this or too tired for that.
Next thing, you know, it's not that important to go.
You know, he just, that devil slips right in there and we got
to rest. That's it.
And it's like medicine too, right?
You know, you take your meds and everything's stable and you feel
good. You're like, I don't need these
meds anymore and you would take them.
If you get rest for a little while, all of a sudden you're
like, I can, I can conquer the world again.
And then you go out there and you just wear yourself out.
It's, it's, it's hard to find a balance, you know?
It is, yeah. And and, you know, sorry, to be
honest, there, there are some people who, you know, have
overcorrected in that way and they don't do as much as they
should. And then they don't have a
purpose. Like God still created us to
work and to do things. And so I've actually seen that
as well in practice, where I think sometimes I just want to
prescribe, like, go get a job, you know, to people like go do
something productive, and you'll be surprised at how much better
you feel. Yeah, yes, that's true.
You got to you got to work, you know, Paul said.
If you don't work, you don't eat right.
And there's the parable of the Talents either.
Way. Yeah, yeah.
But keep it between the ditches, you know it is.
Don't go too far in the direction.
Yeah, let's see. I got one more note down here.
It's about overcoming dark influence clinically and
biblically. You mentioned Mark 4.
Is there other scripture that you lean on that comes to mind,
that maybe not just in your personal life, but that you can,
that you you draw from for your your practice?
Yeah, there's a lot. You know, honestly, I think
following a biblical model is like, how did Jesus deal with
darkness? How did he deal with the enemy?
And, you know, I really wanted to follow that pattern.
I'm so thankful that, you know, I had a dad who really taught me
discernment and how to rightly divide the truth, how to study
Scripture, not be dependent on what someone else about says
about Scripture. So I think that's one thing
we're missing in churches today is we're teaching more
dependence on leaders than we are teaching discernment.
And so, you know, when I designed this model and, and
really it's just using what God's Word says and the and
other, you know, evidence based treatments kind of marrying the
two. But scriptures like, you know,
Mark for the, you know, one through 20 that kind of gives
you the model of Jesus temptation and things like that.
But then we'll talk about like how to change your thoughts,
taking thoughts captive, you know, Philippians, what to think
on. I do an exercise with clients
now, especially ones that, you know, want to have Christian
counseling is I'll say, you know, write out your thoughts,
your negative thoughts that you really want to work on.
And then this week I, you know, sometimes I'll say pick four.
And it could be, you know, I'm, I'm not good enough, I'm
unworthy. A lot of times they're within
that whole line of thinking or I'll never do, you know, this
thing or something. And so I'll say, OK, now I want
you to go find a scripture that is the truth about that
situation. Oh wow.
So I mean, it's, it sounds like a simple thing, but it's so
powerful. And then I'm like, you memorize
those scriptures to remind you of the truth because truth is
what sets you free. And this we have to replace this
thought with this truth. So that's biblical, but it's
also clinical and it's simple things like reminding people
that we're not alone, that you know, when there is darkness
around, reminding them there's an Angel, an Angel army that's
greater, or reminding them that greater is he who is within you
than he who is within the world. Because we don't want to give
too much credit to the darkness. And people forget the power they
have within when you have the Holy Spirit, what they need.
Right. Remember who you are, right?
You're a child of the Most High. Wow.
And your purpose is to image him.
And, and that is one thing that was so profound for me in
writing this book too, is like one of the things we have to
teach people is who they are and what human means.
And I love Doctor Heiser's view of that.
Human means. It's a status given to you at
birth. That means you're an imager of
the Most High God, and that is not dependent on your
intellectual ability, your emotional intelligence, whether
or not you have a disability. It's not dependent on any other
thing than that. The status that God gave humans
to image him be his image marriage on Earth.
So perfect. That's so part if we can keep
that in our mind, if you can keep that in the forefront of
your mind, that we're imagers of God, we're ambassadors for
Christ. We're just a vessel for the Holy
Ghost to work through us, to do God's work.
It would be hard to live a sinful life, would it not?
You know what I mean? It would be hard to give in to
temptation. It would be hard to try to sneak
or to lie. It would be hard to go into an
environment you shouldn't be in because would you want to take
if you realize and think that you're carrying the Holy Ghost
into someplace you shouldn't be, or you're looking at something
you shouldn't be looking at and the Holy Ghost is seeing it, you
know, be like, I know we know that God is everywhere, but to
to realize that if you're addicted, you're putting
something into that vessel where the Holy Spirit of God dwells
might be more apprehensive to do that.
Yeah, but you know, what's so unfortunate about that though,
is that my oldest son, he has got, he was so deep into the the
strange things and, and the divine counsel and Pfizer.
And I love it because it has deepened his faith
exponentially. He's getting ready to go to
college, which I'm having my moment about that, but it's
exciting. I know he's ready.
Like that's exciting. But he's had multiple
conversations with kids that he plays football with that kids he
plays baseball with or kids with the Fellowship of Christian
Athletes at school, go to a public school, even with any
youth group context, to be honest, where he said, you know
what your purpose is, is to be an imager of the most high.
And almost in every single group that he says that they say, what
does that mean? And that is concerning.
Like we have gotten better as the Church of teaching people
who they are. What does it mean to be an
imager, to be a representative of God every single day?
And and that's concerning. Well, that's like a basic core
thing, but it also shows how the enemy has done a very good job
at attacking identity. Yeah, it shows how deluded our
sermons have become. Yeah, You know, sometimes, you
know, I have visited churches where and I, I don't mean
anything mean by it, but you walk in and it's spiritually
dead. You know, it'll be a wonderful
sermon. The preacher is doing his best.
And I'm just a guest in there, you know, and I'll weird, I
don't know, like we're like Pentecostal light, you know what
I mean? It's like it's we.
So I might shout an Amen or I might give a hand clap and then
you're the heads turn at you and I'm like, why aren't you
responded to the word of God, right?
Or you might have the opposite where everything is like a pep
rally. It's a feel good.
You know, we need to get those hard truths and the basics, like
you said, the images of God. We should know that we should
hear that. Maybe it just needs to be
reminded. I'm glad you said that.
That's a wonderful thing. And thank your son for that
message because, you know, I get blessed with the opportunity to
teach, you know, you typically once a month at the church.
And that would be a good back to basics kind of message, you
know, because sometimes I hit him over the head for an hour
with Hyzarian type stuff, you know, and maybe we should just
start here, you know? Yeah, my next goal I've been
working on is to write a children's book that just does
that very thing. Like what is an integer of God?
Who is that? Who is that's to be?
That is wonderful, that is. Obviously needed so.
Yeah, yeah. Wow, a children's book you've
written how many books now? This is like your, I want to
say, 4th book. Is that right?
Well, I wrote a book that had kind of has my own story woven
into it. We've talked about that I think
before. I can do anything in the right
pair shoes. And then I have several journals
online. And then the The Humanity Under
Siege is my second. Like, you know, big book, I
guess you could say. I was counting your journals I
think. You.
Might have more than you might
have more than four if you count the journal.
But yeah, the but I never thought I would be an author or
writer, but it's like when God's given you a message and you feel
like it needs to be out there and then I think it's go share
it. You know, I'm not the brightest
person in the world. I'm not the most well researched
or spoken or you know, but I like to search things out and I
want to be able to explain them where people with everyday
person can understand it. Yeah, yeah.
Well, you see, I love that format though, because what
you're doing, you're taking a conversation and you're putting
it into paper format that won't go away.
You know, you can sit here and you can counsel someone and
they'll receive it and it'll help them.
But we all know that you remember like the first part and
the last part of a conversation. But when you put it into a book,
they can go back and read that middle part.
So I, I love that you're putting it into books.
I love that you're an author. Well, and my goal ultimately is
for more mental health therapists to do this work, to
be trained to see spiritual darkness for what it is.
And I know I've said this some a lot of interviews too, but it's
also to expose darkness. Assessment is a way of exposing
darkness and we are called to do that.
But also, by speaking out about spiritual darkness, we're
calling things that should be called out, called out, because
unfortunately there are mental health therapists who are
bringing in spiritually dark practices as treatments, which
is terrible. We're not only battling with
people coming in with a level of spiritual darkness that's
manifesting as mental health, we're also dealing with mental
health professionals bringing it in.
Yes, but because the devil knows how to get to your kids again,
here I go talking. I know a I'm going to be very
careful. I know a place that does
counseling for children as play therapy and their therapist is a
Satanist. Now people can say what they
want about Satanism. They can say Oh no it's just to
love yourself or blah blah blah. No listen to what it's called.
It's the devil right? I don't care if I get hate mail.
I doubt I will but at this point but you have a satanist alone
with your kids. It's OK to vent the therapist to
to vet the. Therapist.
Because people don't know they're like, oh, they're, they
get recommended here, or it's maybe the state's involved and
they're not vetting the, the therapist.
You have to be so careful. If you hear your pastor say
something out a lot, it raises red flags, right?
But do you want to leave your kids alone with somebody that
you don't know? They're coming from a place of
real love? You know what I mean?
Man, I'm so glad you said that. Yes, sometimes they bring it in.
Sometimes they'll bring it in with New Age ideas, they'll
bring it in with oneness and mindfulness.
And I get it. You know, I, I went down that
road too. Yeah, and teaching, teaching
children, teaching adults, teaching people in general.
Because to be honest, you know, you and I know about a lot of
these things. What, like wide new age is dark
and know why certain liberation practices are wrong, But there
are some people who go to church who love the Lord and they have
no idea why a tarot card would be wrong.
So there's this education piece that we have to also, you know,
do so if they go into a therapy session and they think, oh, I
think hypnosis is OK and they don't really understand what
that's about or they don't understand what tarot cards are
about and they think, oh, this is a cool treatment.
You know what I'm saying? Like, I think that is a part of
the danger too, is there's this ignorance.
And again, that's something we have to teach our children
about. And a lot of times I think
people assume, especially within certain Christian groups, we
like kids don't need to know what a Ouija board is.
Well, maybe they do because if they go to a summer party and
it's there, you would want them to know that.
So it's the same like it's OK. Just like I like to teach my
kids discernment when they go to church.
Like make sure that what's on the screen is actually in the
word of God. I think it's important for us to
do the same. Like when they go to school,
they should know that everything the teacher says might not be
actual truth. If there's teaching or
something, a method that's used in a counseling session that
makes you feel weird, you should tell someone that.
If you question it, it's OK to question.
Yes, yes, it is. You know, even the disciples
question Jesus, right? I mean, that's the Son of God.
That's that's God in the flesh. Ask him questions.
Trust that discernment. Oh, that's so big.
And he welcomed Jesus, welcomed questions.
I love that about Jesus. So we've gotten into an
environment. It was, you know, even within
the church where we don't question leaders, we don't
question things and like that there can be a healthy way to do
that. And it should be invited just
like Jesus invited it. And of course, teaching your
children to do that respectfully.
But like, that's one gift I really believe that my dad gave
me growing up because I was that inquisitive kid.
I have my younger ones like that.
And he was never afraid of me asking questions about the
Jehovah Witness faith when they came knocking on our doors or,
you know, when there were other people in my classrooms who do
who believe different things. Like he was OK with me asking
those questions. And he's one that has such a
faith in the one true God that he knew that the truth would set
me free. He wasn't as scared for me to
explore and ask questions. You know, obviously he did that
in a healthy way. I'm not saying, you know, go out
and you know, buy the book of more May for your kids to read,
but talk to them about it, you know, like show them the
differences in the script we're in.
Yeah, because that's the thing there.
There's No Fear in doing that because the Bible is the Bible.
The word of God is the word of God.
It's been proven right countless times.
You can stand anything up against it and you don't have to
worry about getting, you know, finding some kind of correction.
You know what I mean? Like you're not going to be
worked into a corner to where, Oh my gosh, now I'm questioning
my faith. No, God's word ain't going to
fail. You can put anything up against
it. Again, what you said about like
with Ouija boards, make it, make your children aware of it, aware
that it's evil aware, aware to stay away from it.
I just heard of a new game. I don't know how well, might not
be that new, but it's a game called Red Door.
Yellow Door. Have you heard of that?
Briefly, yeah. It's like some kind of new
overnight sleepover kind of game kids are playing.
And I'm not going to give all the details.
I heard all the details, but it's another thing where you're,
you're opening yourself up and it's so dangerous.
We, as you know, parents, adults, mentors, teachers,
therapists, you know, whatever role you're in, church leader,
we need to be well versed so we can make sure to protect the
kids. I think so much of it goes back
to that because we got to teach them and raise them in the ways
they should go, right? So if you have healthy kids,
you're going to have healthy adults and I that might put you
out of business, but that's, that's the goal, right?
Amazing. Yeah, that's the.
That's the goal, right? Yeah, absolutely.
I used to work with an agency, it was on the board for an an
anti sex trafficking agency. And like, that was always our
goal was like, we want to get it to a place where you don't have
to do this work anymore that, you know, and unfortunately
that's, that's hard. There's a lot of work to be done
in all of these areas. But you know, it's about
exposing darkness and calling it out and preparing families and,
and then learning how to deal with and intervening when it has
happened. And I think we need to do all of
that. And there's a lot of work to be
done with mental health professionals and learning how
to intervene, families learning how to prevent, and in learning
how to respond. Yes.
Amen. Amen.
All the more reason to get your book right, because you're going
to you're going to show people the way in here.
The reality behind the struggle is one of the notes that was in
that e-mail. There you go.
You're you're going to show people the reality.
That's a a word that cannot be used enough.
It's real. It's all real.
The spiritual realm is just as real as the physical realm.
You can feel it, you can see it, you can taste it.
You can touch it. Sometimes it's it's real.
And you don't have to believe in the devil for him to come after
you, right? Doctor Atwell, is there anything
else that you would like to add or include or maybe tell people
where they can pick up your first book and this book when it
comes out, just plug away. You know, there's this amazing
marketplace called Amazon where you can find so many things and
that's where you can, I'm sure you'll be able to find it there
so you can find other things. For me, it's actually where I
found Doctor Pfizer's book and people think that's crazy that I
found Unseen Room on Amazon. That's actually the truth.
So, you know, God could use all things for his good, right?
According to purposes. But so yeah, I think you can
stay tuned with me on my website for your official date.
So when it will come out, social media, mental or consulting, I
try to put out encouraging videos, things to know.
It could look everything like, hey, here's a good strategy to
use this week of practicing gratitude.
Here's some grounding techniques.
Or it could look like, hey, what does grooming look like in the
church? How what is what's actually
behind suicide? You know that, which I firmly
believe are spiritual forces of darkness.
So there's lots of different videos I'll put out from time to
time, but you know the book and just sharing that with anyone
that you know is a mental health professional or struggling with
that or just they don't understand spiritual warfare and
how that might look like if it does manifest mentally.
If you have a deliverance minister friend that you think
maybe they could use some of this understanding of what how
to do with trauma in that setting?
Wonderful idea. And so if you know anybody
that's in the mental health field, if you know anybody
that's in ministry, this book will be a great gift.
Get a copy for yourself, get a copy for them.
Study together, learn together, grow together, and we'll serve
together, right? Thank you so much.
Hey, thank you. It's always a pleasure to have
you on. I'm sorry this took us almost
six months to finally make it happen, but we did it right.
Yeah, we did. Thank you for your patience with
that. Hey, thank you.
It was my fault half the time at least.
Doctor Atwell, you have a great evening and just thanks again
for everything. Thank you.
God bless. That's it for this week.
Thank you so much for listening. If you have an experience or an
encounter that you'd like to share, holler at me.
You can reach me at thebumppodcast@gmail.com or buy
the Bump phone at 304-812-0553. Leave a text or a voicemail
either way and I'll get back to you.
Also, please be sure to leave a five star rating and review on
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Stick around after this for a special invitation.
If you're personally ready to submit your life to God and
accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, the book of Romans
chapter 10 verse 9 says it really simply.
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe
in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be
saved. It's that simple to be born
again, to start a new life as a child of God, to join God's
army, to rise up against the evil forces that you know we're
all around you. You don't have to do it alone.
I love you, Jesus loves you, and May God bless you.
From a quiet smoke with a voice that sounds like Thunder poking
on the streets of gold, here's a beer.
This is like lightning saying hi.
The bone is strong as 10 1000 * 10,000 Same way finally made.
Let's see more. Let's see more Larry boy.
Hallelujah, Christ away for everything, Yeah.
Yeah. Thank you Christ, always name of
Jesus, Praise the Lord, Oh my soul, and thank you God.
In that sea there's a river. Thank you for we from God's holy
from thank you. Where the tree of life is only
God. Where the hell has more been
told? No more tears in that bright
city. Death will have to flee a little
while. Do well more, see less.
Love more hard? Thank you, God.
Thank you, Grace, the holy name of Jesus.
Thank you boys, to the Lord. Oh my soul, thank you.
There's a time bowling that country and seeing that way
sight of old. Thank you God, with the troubles
far behind him to neighbors and I'm going home in the morning to
that land. It's so bright.
In fact, walk the street and wait to go with Jesus in that
city. Build Foursquare.
Glory out ain't your blessing, Jesus.
Grace the blessing. Thank you forevermore.
I'm going home to live with Jesus.
All that happy golden soul. Thank you, Lord.
For those interested in spiritual warfare, please check
out my book it's called Army of God Pocket Guide to Spiritual
warfare. It's available on Amazon in
paperback, hardback and I believe now the Kindle edition.
So please check it out and be sure to leave a five star rating
review Amazon. It's easy to find.
God bless.