Welcome to Appalachia and the land of ancient curses, burial,
mounds of giants, mysterious artifacts, legends of cryptids,
spiritual warfare, the paranormal, principalities,
witchcraft, portals, and seven friends caught in the middle of
it all. This is my book Terror by Night.
It's my first fiction novel. I hope you guys check it out.
It's available on Amazon in paperback, e-book, or hardback.
I had a lot of fun writing this and it is full of research
material on that entity known as Lilith.
Also tons of notes on spiritual warfare.
It's close to my heart. I had a lot of fun writing this
book and my wife loves it. There's something for everybody
in it. It's got action, adventure, lost
love, and warfare. Pick up a copy today, check it
out, and let me know what you think.
God bless. For those interested in
spiritual warfare, please check out my book it's called Army of
God Pocket Guide to Spiritual warfare.
It's available on Amazon and paperback, hardback and I
believe now the Kindle edition. So please check it out and be
sure to leave a five star rating review Amazon.
It's easy to find. God bless.
Isaiah 46 says my people are destroyed from a lack of
knowledge. So now that we have this
knowledge, we have to remember to walk in Second Timothy 17,
which says, For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but
of power, and of love, and of a sound.
Mind when he turned his back from shoulder to shoulder.
Look like as wide as the tailgate of a truck.
This thing. Let out the most blood curdling.
Mind blowing. Spine.
Tingling stream that you've ever heard in your life and it cut
through me like a knife. And I knew that they were going
to take me. I just knew it.
And then the next thing I can remember is being levitated
well. When I look in there I.
See two big odds staring back at me.
Hello and welcome. You're listening to the Bump
Podcast, a place for the believers of the unexplained
monsters and paranormal. Join us and we'll go face to
face with what goes Bump in the Night.
Hey there believers. I got another great episode for
you this week. Today I'm bringing back Trevor.
He is an author and his latest book is about the Shroud of
Turin and I'm super excited to get into this.
We touched on it last time when I had him on the show and this
time he's, he's got the book published and I, I just, I can't
wait to talk to him about it. If you have an experience or
something you'd like to talk about it about holler at me.
It's my e-mail address is thebumppodcast@gmail.com.
I look forward to hearing from you.
I'm, I'm open to a lot of different things.
If you guys want to start branching out a little bit with
what you want to hear or what you want to say, have at it.
You know, of course I in my world view, everything revolves
around Christ. But you know, if, if your
subject matter is a little different, if it's just
something that you know, you're, you're passionate about
something that you have the experience in your testimony,
you know your story, I want to hear it.
It doesn't have to be spooky. It doesn't have to be spiritual
warfare. I love those things.
But you know, this show can be as fluid as the guests that
e-mail me. So holler at me.
I want to thank everybody. I'm coming up on one year since
I released the Army of God Pocket God for Spiritual Warfare
and so close to 1000 sales so far online.
It's. It's over 900, so close to 1000.
And I want to thank you guys for that.
It's a major, it's a big deal for self published books to get
that far. And I had, I had joked with my
wife about it, about wanting that to be my goal number, but I
didn't foresee that happening. But I sold a couple more today.
So it's just like it's got a life of its own, you know, Glory
be to God. Yeah.
Not much has changed here at home.
So if you know, then continue to keep us in your prayers.
All right, let's go ahead and bring Trevor on.
We're going to get into this shroud.
If we get into other things, you know, I know there's so much
going on in the world. You know, I have somebody that I
was I served with overseas. Right now.
He's a contractor, he's in Kuwait.
And the picture that he paints of what's going on with this
Iran conflict is way different than what some of us are seeing
on on the news. OK.
So just. Pray for wisdom, you know, from
every party. I hate that this is happening.
You know, I hate that this is happening, but yeah, well, I
mean, there's so many things to go into.
You know, there's Epstein. There's, I don't know if that
Guthrie lady has ever been found.
Just kind of quit talking about it.
As far as I know. We had this Iran conflict.
We have Zionists versus people who have read their Bible.
There's so much, so much to get into.
But right now, let's bring Trevor on.
OK God bless, Trevor. Thank you so much for coming on,
man. I appreciate you taking the time
with me and working through time zone differences and all that.
No, you were nice. You're staying up late for me
so. It's no problem at all dude.
Welcome back man. Good to be back, good to talk to
you man. Thank you, Sir.
So you got this new book Shroud peeled, right?
Yes, I do. And I'm doing the the book job,
which is going out there and trying to tell everyone about
it. It's been fun.
Kind of waded into a much more controversial area than I
realized with the Shroud of Turn.
So it's been interesting. It's been an interesting few
months. I'd say so.
Are are you being well received overall?
Yeah, I mean, so I I wrote, I wrote the first book like a year
ago or so. And you know, I've been an
atheist my whole life. It was kind of, you know, I was
kind of like coming out as a Christian in a way, even though
the book's not about me. It's about, you know, quantum
physics and neuroscience. And I expected it to be pretty
controversial, you know, because here I am a scientist, I'm
putting PhD on the cover. And I expected to get some
pushback. And I, I really didn't.
I mean, a few, a few people, you know, but sorry, my son's asking
for a code on his iPad. Sorry, but I don't know.
Anyway, anyway, it was pretty tame.
But, you know, the reason I think it was tame is that I
didn't, I was still pretty insecure about being a
Christian, especially surrounded by I mean, everyone I work with
is an atheist. You know, I work at a medical
school and what funny enough, you would think there'd be, you
know, you would hope there'd be some religious people and in
medicine, but at the kind of the top levels in universities,
that's not really the case. But I mean, I didn't get too
much pushback. I but also I didn't really like
come out and say Christ is king either.
You know, I just sort of talked about how science supports the
idea of God being real, contrary to popular belief, you know, and
that's always been the case. That's what the early the
fathers of science thoughts like no one thought they were.
I'm I'm sure some did, I mean some are occultists and stuff,
but I think generally society thought science was just a way
of studying God. And nowadays you look at the
stuff these physicists are saying about quantum fields and
simulation theory and like clearly, clearly they're just
talking about God and creation, trying to use different words,
right. So, so that was the book people
liked it got lots of reviews, good reviews, sold more than I
expected for a sort of self published book.
Yes. Then I wrote about the Shroud of
Turin. It was a whole different, whole
different animal. I, I had no idea.
There's just so much controversy around that topic.
So in science, in Christianity, I mean, the amount of devotion
some atheists have towards disproving the shroud, like, I
don't understand it. It's like, I can't imagine
reading books and writing books about a topic I don't believe
in, you know, but right, there's whole groups of scholars who
cling to these little proofs that they think disprove the
shroud and they buy my book and they leave bad reviews.
You know, I, I think I even got one from this like big time
shroud skeptic who's like maybe the most well known because
he's, he's making all of the arguments that I know this guy
makes. Anyway, it's been an interesting
ride. I, I just wanted to approach the
topic like as a curious person, you know, I believe, I believe
that the resurrection happened. So obviously I'm more open to it
than many others. And I can also read scientific
papers and there are a lot on the topic.
So I read them. I wrote a book that was, it
wasn't preachy by any means. It was sort of, I was trying to
be unbiased. But ultimately, you know, I
think it's real and I say as much and it's been interesting,
man. It's been interesting.
Got a lot, gotten a lot of push back from atheists and from some
Christians. I had no idea that it was a
controversial issue in Christianity.
Oh yeah, man. Sort of a Protestant Catholicism
divide. I I'm getting into stuff I was
just I'll equipped and unprepared for.
So it's been interesting. What what's what are your
thoughts on it? We talked about.
It in the past, but it was a while ago.
Yeah, dude, I'm, I'm all in for the shroud being authentic.
I really am. But I think that this is a
perfect time for for this kind of conversation.
You know, there's a lot of division right now within the
Christian community already these topics coming up between
Zionism and you know, that the view that the Catholics have had
for 2000 years is different than the this Zionist view that I
don't know. I don't know how you feel about
it. And I'm, I'm sure I'm not going
to try to argue with anyone, but I wouldn't want to argue with a
guest on the show. I'll tell you that.
You know what I mean? But you know, I, I see where I
can see where they're coming from with that view.
Which view? Which side?
Of the the Zionist view I got, I understand where they're where
they're coming from with that. But I also, when I've read the
Bible, I don't agree with the Zionist view.
You know what I mean? I see things in like first Kings
Chapter 11 where Solomon went against the face of the Lord and
he stripped him down to one, one tribe, which was Judah.
And then in second Kings, towards the end, a king tries to
make amends and set everything back to write and God's like,
no, it's not happening. So I'm even taking Judah away.
And so there are people without a nation, you know, And they,
these kings broke the covenant and God allowed it to just end.
At least that's the way I read it.
I don't know, it just seems like.
I mean, I, I have to be so careful with what I say 'cause
this is so con such a controversial issue, especially
on university campuses, which is, you know, who my employer
is. So I always, you know, I kind of
shy away from this argument, but it's hard to shy away from it's
becoming, it's becoming like the controversial issue of our time,
which I never would have guessed, you know, big time, you
know, Israel and Palestine, like as a kid, it was like a Seinfeld
bit. You know, it's funny.
It was like over there, like it didn't have anything to do with
us. It was a minor issue.
Now it's the whole world revolves around this topic.
And, you know, you're seeing things on TV, you're seeing
senators, you know, not to get too crazy here, but saying that
saying Christ as king is anti-Semitic.
And, and, you know, there's probably people out there who
argue it. Maybe it is.
You know, it's, and I don't mean that at what what I'm saying is
like that. There's clearly some tension.
Like you read the New Testament, it's pretty clear who Jesus is
up against, you know, and sort of the religious authority of
his day and the people who reject him as the Jewish
Messiah. And so, yeah, I get why this is
tense and I, it sounds like I'm probably more in line with what
you are saying, you know, just to say.
But, you know, it's, it has nothing to do with ethnicity
really, you know, So nothing at all, actually.
But I don't know, man. It's the pressure is getting
intense. Somebody confronted me at the
coffee shop about this. They, they listened to one of my
podcasts and I said something about the war, you know, and
totally minor, like not nothing, just like I, I thought we
weren't going to do this kind of a thing, you know, and like I
got confronted about anti-Semitism and stuff and I
was like. Wow, I.
Was like, dude, what are you talking about?
And I'm just again, I'm this is a kind of controversy I'm not
prepared for. I, I did not grow up in church.
And so when I read the gospel for the first time, I had no
preconceived notions at all. Right.
And you know, come to find out there's like there's long
standing traditions around dispensationalism and
evangelical evangelicalism. And I just didn't know about
that. You know, I thought Christian
was Christian. I know there's like this
Protestant Catholic thing, but it's, I guess it's time for me
to bone up on this stuff because it doesn't seem like you can
escape it, which I think is a sign that it's an important
issue. So.
I do too. And you know, I I hate the
division that is causing. Yeah, I think that it is
ultimately just a way to take our eyes off the cross.
I agree. And hopefully, you know, the
worst case scenario when it all is that it'll just be another
denomination and we'll just keep pushing forward.
You know, it'll just be one more branch of Protestantism.
And, you know, I mean, how many times has it been divided
already? I mean, let's just just I'm.
Hoping for that, you know, I'm hoping that six months from now
we're like, oh, that was a weird chapter, But I don't know, man,
I, I don't, I don't think it's going to be like that.
I just went on a, this is a sort of a subject change, but I just
got back from a two week road trip and we actually tried to
record over the trip and I messed up the time zone thing.
So sorry. But we went up to Seattle and we
drove and then we drove back. So it's a long, you know, I live
in LA, so it's a long drive. And we stopped in all these
little towns and we saw all these beautiful old like
denominational churches, you know, and the probably is almost
as old as California itself, you know, which I guess, I guess
compared to your neck of the woods isn't that old, but maybe
100 years old. And they all had, you know,
trans flags on them. And 1 was like all rainbow
everything. Like we welcome everyone kind of
a thing, which is a fine sentiment.
But there is 12 rainbow flags. You know, 1 cross.
Right. Yeah.
And, and then, you know, all my listeners, for whatever reason,
because my show started off atheist, they kind of have like
a, a bad taste in their mouth about Catholicism.
And so, you know, it's no wonder that evangelicalism is like the
only thing growing right now in America, I guess.
And I don't know if that's good. I mean, I again, I don't know.
I don't know enough about this stuff.
I tend to get in trouble every time I talk about it.
But I, I just couldn't help but think like, what is happening to
American Christianity? You know, it seems very
fractured. It really is.
Everything's went kind of, I
don't know, it went beyond tolerant, if that, if there's a
term, if I would want to use even to just like pandering, you
know, I don't know that there's not much leeway.
Like as far as being biblical, you either you are or you're
not. And to stand on that truth is a
little more important than standing, you know, being
politically correct. And it's, I think that might be
in part of what's hurt my numbers.
You know, about six months ago, I've noticed a sharp decrease in
my, my downloads on here. And I, I just, I've studied and
studied and looked at, you know, trends and what episodes do well
and what ones don't. And, you know, I've kind of, I,
I don't shape my show, you know, I go by just to, you know, who's
listening, you know, who calls in, who wants to be on the show
or whatever. You know, I'll schedule it.
But it's just naturally trended less toward the, you know, the
boogeyman stuff and more towards spiritual warfare or biblical
discussions and stuff like that. So that hasn't really hurt the
numbers. You know, I picked up a
different audience, I think. Right, right.
But I I did an episode and I titled it Freedom and it was in
like the Charlie Kirk letters is what I put on the cover art.
Yeah. And we talked on that for just a
minute, just a minute we talked about it.
It was right after it happened. And I think it was since the end
that the the listeners started falling off a little bit.
And even that is kind of shocking to me.
You know what I mean? It's like, love him or hate him,
you know, everybody has an opinion.
Kind of like Flat Earth, you know, it's like love it or hate
it. You want to listen to it, You
want to see what's being said. There's always like one topic
that's divisive within the community, you know, like it.
Same for me. Like I 'cause my, my
listenership, you know, I'm very right wing, you know, but right,
you know, right wing politics, like those are principles, you
know. And so if, if the, the actions
of a certain candidate, I'm like tiptoeing around here, you know,
don't line up with the principles you've believed in
for a certain amount of time, it's OK to just mention it, you
know, And so I just mention it and man, I got pushed back.
You know, I, I, I, I get like Democrat talking points from
Republicans now. And I'm like, guys, what's what
happened, man? Like this is, we're in a whole
new world. What are you doing?
Last year, you were on my side about this.
It's I just think, dude, I think this is crazy for me to say as a
lifelong atheist, a new Christian, but it just feels
like spiritual warfare. Exactly.
You know, it's there's deception and not that I know everything
and not that I'm like resistant to it, but I don't know what
else to call it. It just feels like we're all
just sort of spells are getting cast on us, you know, for lack
of a better. Word.
Yeah, yeah, bro yeah. And I think figuratively and
literally, there's spells being cast against things that stand
for the Lord. What's, what's the name of your
show? Let's plug it real quick too.
Oh. Yeah, yeah.
So God's Eye View is is my show. I do by myself, same name as my
first book, God's Eye View. It's kind of named after this
like oxymoron in science that says, you know, that this whole
universe exists even without a God or a human in it.
It just is. It's just exists.
It's physical, it's real. And ironically, they named that
a God's Eye view, you know, and so I just, I like, you know, I
like kind of playing with that in the book.
And yeah, so, so that's my show that I do on my own.
I do another, another show. It's a little bit more political
and stuff with a friend of mine called Bad Press.
And yeah, so God's Eye View and Bad Press, they're audio only,
you know, so listenership is kind of small.
It's more for me, you know, I just like talking about stuff
with people. So we've got a kind of small but
loyal group of people over there.
And I just want to clarify our earlier conversation.
I am, I think if you're, if you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord
and Savior, you're on my team. You know, I think you can be a
Zionist, I guess, and we can still be friends.
You know, we and I'm sure we have a lot of mutual enemies,
right? But I'm not always sure that
they feel the same way about my views.
You know, maybe that's maybe that's just me, but yeah.
And that's like a new thing, man.
Exactly. It's so new.
It's like if you disagree, they don't just call you
anti-Semitic, they they're calling you.
They're questioning your Christianity.
Exactly. Yeah, it's like a salvation
issue. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. And I'm like, no, you know, it's
like there there's one way to heaven, right?
And that's through Jesus Christ. So that's all-encompassing,
that's all inclusive, that's everyone on earth.
And they're like, oh, I've been people say like replacement
theology. No, it's not replacement
theology. It's fulfillment of prophecy.
It's fulfillment of every parable that Jesus tried to
explain. You know, they're having the the
wedding supper and the wedding party, and people don't come.
So what do they do? They go out and they bring
others in. Yeah, you know, and they're
filling the table because the table is going to get filled.
You know, it's not to replace anybody.
It's to fulfill what was supposed to be.
Exactly. And then you've got the wicked
vine dresser, right? That's another one of these
parables that's sort of relevant and, and just the idea that
there would be like an ethnic claim to salvation, I think.
I think as Americans, we should kind of reject that, right?
Like God is able to raise up sons of Abraham from these
stones, right? And so, yeah, I don't, I don't
get it. There's lots of new fancy words
that are being created to like label me and others and, and
listen, this is not, this is not an issue.
Like I don't want to, I don't even really want to be
associated with this kind of topic.
It's just I'm not going to. I'm not.
You can't compel me to say something.
You know, this was the whole reason the trans stuff bothered
me because I was working in the university system and like, they
want me to put pronouns in my e-mail and I'm like, no, no one
has any doubts that I'm a dude. You know, I've got a scraggly
beard and I don't, I don't need to say he him in my e-mail.
And it became like, it became like almost like I was going to
be fired over it. And so I, I don't like, I'm an
American. I'm a Christian, really the
trans thing. Both of it violates both of my
identities as an American, as a Christian, you know, And so it's
like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to say it.
And I feel like we're getting there again.
I mean, the this side, this side of the argument lately people
have been saying the woke, right?
But I feel like it's the exact opposite.
Like you're you're using trans arguments to get me to make me
say things like that's woke, you know, like, like I'm not, I'm
not woke. I'm the same guy.
I've always been, you know, and yeah, so clearly this has been
on my mind too, because I didn't even plan to talk about this,
but. Right.
Yeah, it. Just feels like I'm under siege
sometimes. I don't want to talk about it.
People like I'm not obsessed, you know, emailing me.
People keep messaging me in the Discord and it's like I, you
know, anyway, so. Yeah, dude, I'm with you, man.
I I gave blood the other day and it's like, you know, that's face
to face. You're in there at a donation
center, like a mobile donation center.
And this guy who was probably older than I am also a big guy
with a beard, he's like, OK, so what's your gender?
And I couldn't help but laugh, dude.
I'm like, that's before I shaved my beard down.
So it was like hanging down, like, past my collar.
And I'm like, bro, are you serious?
You know, I was like, come on, man, unbelievable.
Let's not play anymore. Let's just just quit playing.
That's one thing we needed. I need to be thankful for and I,
I don't express this compliment enough about the current
administration. Is that that most of that seems
to be sort of gone. Yeah, it might come back, but
for now that seems to be long gone.
And I'm grateful for that because that was that was upside
down world, man. Yes, yes, it was.
And I think I'm picking up what you're saying there too.
I am looking for things to still be grateful for with this
administration. Me.
Too. I'm like, this is not, this is
not the promises of no more war, I'll tell you that.
I know, I know, man, I know. It's listen, I'm not like I'm
not a pacifist. Like I get, I understand the
need, you know, for war under certain situations, but like you
need, you need, that's the last resort, you know, especially as
Christians, right? Like, we don't want to be
violent unless we have to be, you know, And and, you know, put
that aside for a second. It was pretty clear that this is
what we all wanted, right? We didn't want to get involved
in this stuff in the Middle East.
Like, especially like, my age range.
Yeah. Bro.
We, we went through the whole thing, you know, we went through
all the countries in the Middle East and like, we're just over
it, You know, everything's expensive.
It's hard to find work for a lot of people.
And we just don't want to get involved, right.
Unless, unless, unless, literally, like our liberties
are on the line. And I guess maybe some people
will make those arguments, but it didn't seem like that was the
case, and it doesn't seem like we've really accomplished
anything. No, they they kicked a hornet's
nest. That's what they.
Just a lot of death, you know, we just, we've participated
really directly participated, you and I, you know, we've put
money into this machine in death and destruction, you know.
And so, yeah, I think it's OK to be a little bumped out, but also
you got to try to find the good stuff.
And the trance thing, I mean, really, that is like, I would
say the major thing, like the culture war woke stuff was just
unbelievable. It's scary how far we can get.
Yeah, man, how quick. Yes, yes.
And then before that the COVID stuff.
Oh. Yeah.
Bro so so there's a lot of good too.
But yeah, I'd rather not us kill anybody unless we really have
to, you know? Yeah, that would be great.
I don't think that's like a left wing idea.
I think that's a Christian idea, so.
For real and and all denominators there we.
Go No. No one.
We've alienated half your audience, probably.
I'm sorry. They're OK.
They're OK If they don't like it, they they can join the other
70% that seem to have dropped off since I said I love Charlie
Kirk, you know? So.
Oh, really? Yeah, man.
Oh yeah, surprises. That surprises me A.
Lot it surprises me too and maybe that wasn't it.
Maybe that wasn't the nail that you know, but I.
I guess I didn't catch that earlier when you were explaining
the Charlie Kirk letters and say I didn't pick up on that.
You think it was because you like Charlie Kirk, that you like
I would. I would think it'd be the
opposite. You know, he was kind of like
the darling of that. Yeah, I, I would think so too,
but I can't understand unless, unless it is like, and I, I view
everything spiritually, you know, unless it's God himself
saying, OK, you've, you've made this show for me.
You dedicated it to me. It's ran its course.
You've reached who I wanted you to reach.
And now we're closing that door. You know, unless that is
happening then I I have no other explanation as to why it's
literally dropped like 70%. Yeah, I mean, we, you could, you
could misuse this argument. I think it's possible to misuse
the argument I'm about to make. But also, you know, we're told
that the truth is going to be unpopular, you know, so maybe
it's just a sign that hearts are changing.
Maybe it's just a temporary thing, you know, who knows?
That's my hope. So, you know, there's that.
I think it's one of like the early Catholic Church fathers,
but basically says, I, I got to stop bringing them quotes that I
don't actually know. But it's something along the
lines of like, we need to do this even if reduced, we're
reduced to just 12 again, you know, yes.
And it's just this idea that you just really can't compromise.
That's it, that's it. You just got to stand man.
And you know, they, you know, Jesus said it's not going to be
pretty for, for people who follow him.
So yeah, if this is my persecution, then OK, you know,
it's not that bad. I mean, we've had it pretty
good. I became a Christian when it was
popular to become a Christian, you know, like five years ago
there we had a few years ago. I feel like we had a big revival
kind of. Oh.
For sure. And so I've, I've known 0
persecution as a Christian, so I probably shouldn't complain, but
I knew some persecution as a free thinker when I got fired
for not getting vaccinated. But yeah, I think, I think,
yeah, doing the right thing is not always popular.
And I'm not trying to say that my ideas are right.
I'm open minded if someone wants to explain it to me.
But I haven't been convinced that I need to pledge allegiance
to any particular nation, right? Particularly a foreign nation,
you know, right. So right.
Happy to have allies and friends, right.
But absolutely. But you know, there's limits.
Yeah, Yep, perfectly said bro. So talk to me about Shroud Peel.
Tell me yeah yeah, I totally took us off in like a far.
I don't know, I'm afraid to say left or right.
I'm a far off tangent. So it's.
Relevant, man. It's relevant because it's
controversial. You.
Know it is. It is, bro.
Yeah, but yeah, explain this all to me, man.
Like what? What inspired you to do the
book? What, what you're, what you have
uncovered and found and I know you and I have discussed it
previously, but like I was saying, I've got a new batch of
listeners. I got different listeners and I
I think it would be great to just go over all of it.
Yeah, sure. Let's do it.
Yeah. So folks, folks who aren't
aware, you know, there is a, a cloth with the image of the
front of a man in the back of a man in embedded in the cloth,
right. And so in 1898, it was believed
to probably be an image of Jesus Christ that may be transferred
to the cloth in those three days that he was in the tomb, perhaps
maybe through perspiration or, or something.
And and so in 1898, they took a picture of it and there was a
guy named Sekondo Pia. It's very early photography.
And someone was texting me, sorry, very early photography.
And you know, back then you had to develop the photo, right?
It did. It wasn't like a Polaroid or
like a Cam, you know, iPhone. You had to develop the photo and
the first thing you saw was a negative image.
All right, can I share my screen on here?
Is that possible? Yeah, let me make sure I knew
how to do that. I think maybe I do it.
Let me do. Let's see.
OK, yeah, yeah, go for it and see what happens.
I don't know if it will happen 'cause this is in my like my.
Should be right beside the leave button.
Yeah. Can you see this?
There it is. Yep.
I've got you see the the face. Yes.
OK, so on the left is what the shroud actually looks like in
person. This is just the face.
Obviously it's the whole front of I, you know, I, I get try to
get in the habit of saying the man in the shroud versus Jesus
because I mean, I don't know for sure.
I have a pretty confident that this is an image of Jesus.
But since I don't know for sure, I'm trying to approach it
scientifically, I'll just say the man in the shroud, Well, the
image on the left is what it actually looks like in person.
The image on the right is what the photo negative looks like.
And So what people, I think you know, fail to comprehend is that
if this were a man made object, which is the skeptical claim,
the artist would have to paint the image on the left knowing
that 500 years later, a technology would be invented
that would make it look like the image on the right, right.
And so because no, no one would have ever seen that image on the
right back then when it was created because again, you could
this could only be done with a camera in negative.
And so, yeah, the claim is that that this was made by a medieval
artist. Here's the full shroud right
here. And so you can see the bottom
half of the screen. This is the front and then this
is the back and it would have been folded around his head
right here. So it's just this long cloth.
And then all the other markings are fold Marks and stuff.
It's this is either 2000 years old if it's real or 700 years
old if it's fake. And you can see evidence of
lashing, of scourging. You can see evidence of the
crown of thorns inserted and not you can you can see here, these
are this white, the white marks. It would be blood, blood stains.
And. And yeah, you can see evidence
of piercing at his wrist right there.
It's kind of hard to see, but there you go.
And so you can see the scourge marks all over.
And so, yeah, so, So really after this photo was taken in
1898, here, let me stop sharing my screen here.
The Catholic Church and others believers went from thinking
maybe this is real to, oh, this is, this is probably real.
You know, this is probably the actual image of, of Jesus
Christ. And so anyway, so it wasn't
until 1989 that a study was done.
You know, some, some universities got together in the
Turing Cathedral in Italy. They bring out this casket that
contains the shroud, and scientists from Oxford, the
University of Arizona in Zurich, cut a corner off the cloth.
So not an imaged area, but a corner, and they split it into a
bunch of pieces. They send it off to three
separate labs and they carbon date it.
And so the results came back and they combined the three
measurements they got to get an average age of about 700 years
old. 1325 is sort of the middle state, and so for most of my
life it's just been assumed that this is fake.
Most Christians, as far as I know, even most Catholics, kind
of think like it's just a nice relic that somebody made,
despite how amazing it is and us not understanding how it was
made, how it could be made by a medieval artist.
You know, some people like to say Leonardo da Vinci made it,
but it predates him by almost 2 centuries.
Some people said that some people in the medieval times had
something akin to camera technology.
It's called camera obscura. It's really just bizarre.
It, it doesn't make any sense. I I could go into there are
people who really believe in it, so I'll just briefly mention
what it was. They basically take this massive
quartz lens and they can make a statue, but even that probably
wouldn't be adequate. So they could hang a corpse
potentially in the sun and places quartz lens on a sealed
building with a with the cloth inside and a bucket of urine
because the ammonia would evaporate and they could paint
the cloth with silver. I forget that this particular
chemical, but it's some type of silver.
Silver nitrate, probably. Yeah, silver nitrate, I think,
And it would develop over time and then the the ammonia salts
would bind to it and fix as it evaporated to fix the image.
But they've done stuff this way. I mean, there's no evidence that
was possible back then, but they've even tried to recreate
it and it just doesn't work. It doesn't come out correctly.
It looks like a photo, not a photo negative anyway.
So. So despite having no
explanation. People have thought it was it
was fake. You know what's up, buddy?
I'm sorry, everybody, myself. You're good.
You're good, man. My wife had a last minute change
of plans so he's relegated to the iPad.
But anyway, so this, so, so wasn't until I think 2017 that
they started digging into this paper.
And oddly, you know, the paper is published in Nature.
So generally if something's published in nature, there's
certain requirements. You're supposed to be willing to
share the data, you're supposed to be willing to share the
methods. And they didn't, you know, the,
the universities involved wouldn't share that information.
It wasn't until this guy named Tristan Casa Bianca, he was a
French researcher. He submitted a basically the
equivalent of a FOIA. You know how we have FOIA here?
So it's a Freedom of Information request to the British Museum.
And they were, they released most of the documents.
He ended up having to fight a little bit harder to get
everything, but he got it. And So what they discovered,
there's another guy called Marco, I think his last name is
Rihani, I forget, but he was involved too.
And what they discovered is that the labs had control samples.
So a control sample is a cloth that you know how old it is and
they proved that their method works by dating that cloth.
So they had a 2000 year old Egyptian linen that they knew
was 2000 years old because it was found in the tomb of this so
and so who died? They knew his exact date of
death because it was written down or something.
And so they dated it and they got 2000 years old.
So proof that the carbon dating worked, right?
And all three labs dated a set of controls and they all got the
right answer. So it shows that they're all
locked in. You know, the, the method is
consistent across the three labs.
When the three labs dated the shroud, they all got wildly
different dates, significantly different in the statistical
sense of the word, significantly different.
And so they, they just averaged them and reported that age,
which isn't appropriate number one, but #2 why would an
accurate method yield different results?
Cross contamination it. Has to be there's no other
explanation and no one even did not like there's no sense
denying that because that's the obvious cause is contamination.
And so there's been some reports that like as much as 70% of the
sample is, you know, non original.
And there's debate about whether, you know, it was
repaired after a fire or if it's just random contamination.
It's travelled Europe and, you know, for 2000 years potentially
or even 700 years, who knows if it isn't real.
And so we just, we just, the date was complete garbage.
The carbon date was really not accurate.
And it, in my opinion, should be retracted.
But I'm not an archaeologist, so it doesn't matter what I think.
What's up, buddy? Hey buddy, take my phone.
We'll see. We'll see how this goes anyway.
Anyway, hey buddy, give me one minute, OK?
I love his kid so much, but he he's not.
He does not buy the hay. I'm doing a call explanation
anyway, so I think the date's wrong.
Or at the very least, we just shouldn't place much weight on
it. And really, there's been no
counter argument. There's been no explanation.
There really is no pushback other than, yeah, maybe the
date's a little off, but this is not a scientific answer, right?
Like. Not at all.
You can't. This has been the basis of
discrediting the Shroud for 40 years.
So. So I'll take a break there.
Do you have any thoughts on that?
Yeah, it seems like that's the least scientific result it could
have possibly had, man. Like do we know that the same
material was given to all three places?
You know the sample was cut? Yeah, we know.
Oh, this is another interesting aspect actually.
So we know that it was about. It was, you know, it was a few
inches long. I forget the exact length of
this corner of the cloth that they cut off the corner of the
shroud, which, you know, quick tangent.
That's the most likely spot that would need a repair after the
fire, right? Would be the edges.
And there was a fire, right? Yeah, I was in.
There's in a couple fires, one in the, you know, the 16th
century, which there's, you know, I get a lot of pushback
for this. There's at least some evidence
that they did repair it after that fire.
I mean, and when I say there's some evidence, you know, the
samples did contain what they found, cotton threads.
It's a linen cloth, so it should only have flax.
But even, you know, textile experts disagree.
So what every single argument, there's two sides.
But but the real damning thing, in my opinion, is that the
Shroud got younger as he moved across the sample, you know, So,
so we know, you know, they took many tests.
Each lab did the test many times from different parts of this
little tiny cloth. And you can map them and it,
it's a linear effect as you move from left to right, which is
sort of proof that, you know, there's probably a repair over
here. And as you move closer to the
repair, it gets younger. And and so, yeah, it's just,
it's garbage. And really, you know, these
scientists, they're, they're, they're ideologically committed.
Just think, think about it. You know, I'm a Christian.
If the shroud was proven to be fake, Oh well, you know, like I
don't have my faith wrapped up in this cloth, right?
I think it's incredible if it's true, but it's, I'm not like my
belief isn't dependent on it, right?
Most people didn't even consider it could be real until a couple
years ago. So, but if you're an atheist,
this cannot be true, right? This, this, this means you're
100% wrong and possibly damned right.
So like the, the, the, what's the word I'm looking for?
Like the consequence of this is huge for them.
The weight is huge. So like, there's nothing you
won't say or be willing to believe to justify your position
and so on. On this issue, I do think it's
the skeptics that are acting much more religious.
On this particular particular, yeah, they're, they're measuring
it against their pride. Yeah.
I mean like everything they have has to be against this.
Yeah, exactly, Exactly. So.
And I mean, I don't know, I just encourage people to take a look
at it in negative versus positive and just ask yourself
like, could this could, does it even make sense that someone
could have painted this not knowing what it would look like
in negative? I mean, it looks like an image
in negative and, and then also like there's no evidence that it
is painted. You know, they, they've studied
this up close and all these different microscope techniques
and floor and floor X-ray fluorescence and UV fluorescence
and #1 it's not scorched. So it's not like they heated
something like a statue up to a really high temperature and
draped a cloth over. It's not scorched because burns
and scorch marks fluoresce under UV light.
Now the blood stains do fluoresce.
So it's, which is what you would expect, you know, if you watch
CSI Miami. So it does seem like it they are
really blood stains and there's no, there's no paint now that
they have found and this they really like to harp on this.
They have found, like little specks of pigment, red and blue
and green, but it's uniform. Like, it's not, It's not.
It's not like the pigments are in the imaged areas but not in
the non imaged areas. It's just sort of all over.
And it's because this thing has been carted around the Middle
East and Europe for hundreds of years and people have pressed
paintings up against it. It almost kind of developed like
a cult like following in the 1600s.
Yeah. And people would just like, yes,
they would just press paintings up against it and other
tapestries, other clothes and. If they could touch it, I would
imagine people cry on it and everything, you know what I
mean? Absolutely, Yeah, absolutely.
And so, and so that's evidence of nothing, you know, like
finding little specks of stuff. They they found DNA from sea
worms on it. Like that doesn't mean it was
made by a mermaid, you know, it just means it's been exposed to
the elements, you know, And so. So that's kind of a problem.
And, and anyway, so there's one guy in Italy who did his name's
Luigi Garlic, Garlic Shelley, who came up with this kind of
interesting idea where he made a mask of a person and then and
then draped a cloth over it and rubbed pigment with a little
like slightly acidic pigment over the top of it.
Kind of like you do a rubbing. Like I remember going to
Washington, DC as a kid and you could like take a crayon and rub
names like the memorial and stuff and kind of like that.
And then did the same thing for a real human's body and put it
in like a wash, a dryer. It, it just doesn't hold up.
I mean, listen it, if you have the shroud as a guide, I'm not
shocked that people can sort of make something that sort of
approximates it, but it's just not it's just not the same.
And even he admits it doesn't hold the same 3D depth in
coding. And this is another point is
that Los Alamos Labs studied this, you know, like the famous
Los Alamos labs in New Mexico. And, and they put this, it's
actually a really kind of ingenious idea.
They took this thing, it's called the VPA image analyzer.
And they assigned they, they, they like, turn it into pixels,
like you can so picture little dots.
And they assigned a vertical relief to each, each color that
could be present in the shroud, kind of the way MRI works.
And, and it renders it 3 dimensional.
This this was a technique used to study X-ray images and try to
turn X-ray images 3D. And it it worked on the shroud
and it doesn't work on paintings, It doesn't work on
photos. It worked on the shroud.
Yeah. So it's as if the body in the
shroud was the light source. This is like the key.
This is the key piece. It's not perspiration.
It's not anything like a image transfer.
It is as if the body was an energy source for a brief moment
of time. Like the body itself, cast the
negative. Yeah, exactly.
And like kind of not, not burned, but sort of radiated and
changed the physical properties of the the cellulose and the
fiber so that it aged differently over time.
And so this we're seeing sort of like the like the fossil of an
event, like an electromagnetic event.
And as a Christian, like what could that event be?
You know, obviously we know it's, it's a resurrection.
Yeah, the moment of resurrection and there's, it's impossible to
see. It's that kind of stuff, dude.
It's impossible to replicate today with today's technology.
It reminds me of like all these temples around the world that
were built that we can't, you know, we can't build it the same
way we can't explain how they were built.
But we will die before we admit that it's something, you know.
Right, right. Well, you.
It's right here. And if it's true, you're looking
at the face of Christ. Exactly.
It really is amazing, really is amazing.
And you know, that point about the temples is an interesting
one because you know, it used to be the popular thing used to be
it's you know, it's man made and you know it, it just is man
made. And hey, Leonardo da Vincio was
alive right around that time and he could do anything, right so.
Right, right. But slowly, like people begin to
acknowledge like that's not a good enough excuse.
That's like that's that doesn't really answer the problem.
And so people start to entertain ideas like maybe it was created
by some esoteric amazing force, but it wasn't the resurrection
like it was, it was the Knights Templar or it was some ascended
master or, you know, is, and it's just amazing the lengths
people will go to avoid saying like, well, maybe it maybe it
could be the resurrection, you know, And anyway, there is a
historical side of this too, if you want to shift gears to that.
Yeah. Well, let me ask one question
first before we go into the historical side.
And this is a question that I think most people listening
would want to know. Have they done DNA tests on the
blood? No.
So what DNA basically won't hold up in that environment?
They have they have done some sticky tape samples and the
problem is like the DNA is just so degraded that they get crazy
results. Like that's where the marine
worm DNA comes from. It's like, but it's based on
like adna fragment that's like 10 base pairs long or something.
So DNA just won't hold up. They have done some analysis
where they find evidence that it is real blood.
You know that they found red blood cells and you know, there
are claims that it has a lot of bilirubin and creatinine in it,
which could be evidence of, you know, someone who what's
experiencing pretty dire situation, you know, like pretty
extreme stress and dehydration, which fits.
There's some evidence that the spear wound released both blood
and water, which fits the account.
It's very consistent with the crucifixion.
So it looks like his ankle was probably dislocated, but no
bones were broken. Which is still it, yeah.
Exactly, and it looks like he probably did die quickly based
on that. Exit it that that blood and
water out of his the spear wound, which fits Pontius Pilate
being surprised how quickly he passed away and and
interestingly, the nail holes are are in the wrist, which you
know all if you look at medieval paintings, all medieval
paintings have the nails through the palm.
And so if this was made in medieval times, it's just kind
of odd that they made it that way.
So. So anyway, yeah, but no DNA, no
DNA. There's a lot of pushing right
now to do another carbon dating from a more central area that
probably isn't repaired. But the problem is we don't
really know if that date is wrong because it was repaired or
just because the whole cloth is contaminated.
So I don't know how I feel about that because you'd hate to take
a piece of Christ's image potentially and use it to
disprove falsely, you know, that this thing is not 2000 years
old. So I, I don't know, I think, I
think we just at this point, and this is a, this is something
Giulio Fonte said, he's like the main researcher in Italy on the
shroud. He said it's kind of like God
himself, you know, like there's a lot of great evidence, but at
some point you just kind of have to believe, you know, it's sort
of like the faith. And so as I think that's we're
just going to have to be OK with that now at least.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Wow.
Yeah. So just because it will come up,
you know, skeptical people listening, the shroud kind of
emerged on the scene in the 14th century.
OK, And This is why that carbon dating was so damning is because
the carbon date was in the 14th century.
Right. And so I get it.
I get, I get that. That's very persuasive.
It's just that that carbon date #1 is not accurate and #2
there's historical evidence placing the shroud deeper in
history. Now it's debated.
People argue, but have you heard of the Manda Lion?
No. It's, it's an icon.
You know, there's all these this Christian iconography like
Christ the pentocrator and stuff.
And so the Mandalion, it's this piece of cloth that had now we
don't have any written descriptions of it, I don't
believe, but it was, it's a cloth that had Jesus face on it.
Oh, is that when he that he where he cleaned his face?
Well, so that is sort we didn't know.
Like there is there is like some contention because there's this
thing called the Sudarium of Oviedo in Spain that they think
was his face cloth. What they think the man to lion
was. Because if you look at letters
exchanged about the Shroud of Constantinople, which came to
Constantinople in the 10th century, they described it being
folded up so that only the face was visible and they described
it as a faint impression of the Lord in a cloth.
They thought it was like maybe blood or perspiration,
perspiration stains. No one understood the idea of,
you know, like UV light or radiation or electricity back
then, right? So they thought it was like a
stain. And it's there's reasonable
evidence that that was the shroud of turn.
You know, there's a letter about during the 4th Crusade when we
turned on Constantinople, I say we like, like I, you know, was
part of the French and English or whoever it was Crusade.
But but they go into Greece, they, they fight a war and
Constantinople doesn't pay or something.
And so they sack the city of Constantinople.
And it's this horrible, like horrible event in Christian
history. And it's why, you know, probably
a big reason why, you know, Constantinople is a, is a
Islamic town. You know that a lot of these
churches are, are mosques now is, you know, that was just a
devastating blow to, to, to them.
And there's a letter that says the these invaders basically
like raped our women on the altars and stole the image of
the Lord and took it to Greece basically.
Now the guy who emerges with the shroud in the 14th century, it
emerges when he gets back from Greece, when he gets back from
the crusade. And by all accounts, he was this
honorable man. He saved his king.
He was in a English war camp. He prayed to God and was then
was set free. And so he comes back to leery
France and and builds a cathedral that's kind of like a
sign of devotion to God. And he puts it on display there.
And so that's when we first know for sure, without a doubt, that
what we call the Shroud of Turin today pops into history.
But I mean, chances are really good that he got it in Athens.
But she just returned from who would have gotten it from
Constantinople, who would have gotten it from Edessa when it
was called the Shroud of Edessa. And the Shroud of Edessa goes
all the way back to King Abgar, who claims to have gotten it
from the Apostles. And so it's sounds weird of my
Internet, sorry. But so it's it's stands to
reason that that it goes all the way back.
Man, so, so there there is a historical connection that you
can, you know, plausibly trace this back to the apostles.
Yeah, I think so. I mean, from Edessa to the
Apostles, it gets a little shady, obviously.
Totally makes sense. It is interesting though, that
like the Christ the Pentocrator image kind of emerges around
that same time. And if you do an overlay of that
icon with the shroud, it's amazing.
Let me see. Let me see if I can find it.
Christ the Pantocrator. How's this this camera's
lagging. Radio is my voice coming through
all right, at least. Yeah, yeah, your voice sounds
fond. It's just, I don't know if it's
a lag and it could be something on my side of the connection.
Dude, last night at, well, today, I guess 1:30 this
morning, you know, middle of the night I was out on my patio, 70°
weather. I was playing around with a
little camp stove. Then this afternoon at 3:00, I
look outside and it's snowing like crazy and we've got like 2
inches of snow. Big, heavy, wet snow.
And it's probably going to interrupt the Internet, at
least. Oh really?
Do you have Starlink or something?
What's that about? That's kind of weird.
Well I I order Starlink and it's sitting in the box in the living
room. Oh OK OK I wasn't sure if the
snow is messing with starlink or something.
No, it's, I don't know, but the audio's fine and you know,
video, it'll be OK. You're a good looking man.
It's OK if it freezes on your face there.
Can you see this? All right, I'll do some images.
There they are. Yes, looks good now.
So awesome. So I mean, look at this image on
the left. It's pretty amazing.
I mean the head shape. It really is the.
Mouth, the lips. So I mean, I would argue that
the person who made this icon had probably seen the shroud,
right? And the fact that
Chrysipintocrator and the shroud kind of emerge around the same
time back in the 6th century, I believe I've I'd forget someone
can look up exactly, but it seems pretty reasonable that it
worked that way. Now, some people like to make
the opposite argument that the person who made the shroud at
seeing Christ at the talkator. And we don't know for sure, to
be fully honest, but it I mean that we have a, as far as
historical records go, we have a pretty good historical record
that takes us all the way back for sure to the 5th century,
maybe to the 1st century. If it was anything else other
than Jesus, we would totally accept it.
Yes, you know. Yeah, if it was the shroud of
some pharaoh, it would be a lock, you know what I mean?
There would be no, no question, no argument.
It would just be, well, it has to be this way, and I wish
people would put as much effort into proving it as they are
disproving it. It's a sign of something though,
you know, the fact that like people just 'cause you know, I,
I was an atheist. So like, I did this, you know, I
can't, I really pushed back specifically on Jesus.
And it's something you kind of have to ask yourself why, Like I
didn't know anything about Jesus, really.
So the fact that I'm this animated, you know, I attribute
it to just like maybe issues I had with like institutions and
with the church. But I mean, really, I read the
gospel and I'm like, I can't be against this.
Like there's nothing in here that I should be against.
So like the fact that I'm acting like I'm against it, like this
is this is a sign of something, you know, not a good sign.
Like it's, it's a sign that is real.
And there's some reason like, why am I resisting this?
And so I think the same thing goes on with the Shroud, because
it would be physical evidence of the resurrection.
And so people, just people, just certain subset of people just
can't believe it, you know? Yeah, so.
Yeah. Like for me, you know, just off
of what you've told me historically and off the test
that they've ran and looking at the image through a camera
through the negative, you know, I don't need anything else.
You know, like I'm convinced and maybe I'm gullible, you know,
but I what more do you need? No, you're not.
You're not, you know. The claim against you would be
like, hey, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.
OK, fine, but the evidence is on your side.
It is on our side, you know, So I guess it's OK if some people
don't want to believe, that's fine.
But people try to make you feel stupid.
You know, you go on these online forums and it's like, oh, what a
what an idiot, what a nut job, you know?
No, the, the, the scientific evidence is on our side.
Now, is it definitive? I guess not, but it's way better
than we should reasonably, reasonably hope for for a 2000
year old cloth, you know and so right.
Now there's no other shrouds from crucifixions, I would
imagine, right? Because this was, it was not a
common, it wasn't common practice for the Jewish people
to be crucified. It was more of a Roman thing,
right? Is that am I way off on that?
No, you're you're totally correct.
OK. Yeah, you're totally correct.
There's nothing, there's nothing like it.
I mean, there's, there's like alleged burial clothes, but
there's, they don't have an image in them, you know, and
there, there are hoaxes, you know, there, there are medieval
hoaxes for sure. But it's they're just in a
completely different category. You know, number one, they have
paint. They have paint on them, you
know, so, so. Right.
But #2 they're not a negative. They don't have 3D encoding.
They, they don't have like rich detail of the crucifixion.
So yeah, it's, it's, I think, I think Christians should feel
very good or comfortable about this.
You know, I don't, I don't see a reason to, to feel embarrassed
about this at all. I think, I think the, the forces
against this are trying to make it sound ridiculous.
So you don't, you don't like, use your one of your best pieces
of evidence, you know, So, yeah, I, I've done a lot of pushback
from Christians too, though. You know, John Calvin said that
if you believe the shroud is real, then you believe John is a
liar. And I, I read John.
I read the scene at the tomb. I don't get it.
I don't, I don't understand. I don't understand the point
he's making. I mean, the point he's making is
that in translations of the day they describe that, you know,
John says the other disciple went into the tomb and then he
saw the strips of linen lying there next to another piece of
linen that was folded up. And so the, the idea is the
strips of linen, but, but earlier, Joseph Arimathea buys a
nice cloth and drapes them in it.
So it, we already know there's a linen sheet, you know, so the
fact that it says strips of linen to me doesn't really mean
anything. And it says it's laying next to
the other linen. So there's multiple linen.
So this is not like really a problem for me at all.
So I don't understand why it I think it has more to do with
church politics of his time, you know, because this was a
Catholic relic and, you know, they, the Catholics are very
into relics and and the, you know, the Calvinists,
Protestants probably weren't. So I think this is more of just
a church issue that to me is shouldn't be long since past,
you know. Oh yeah.
For sure, dude, for sure. I think this should be this
should be something that all denomination or category of
Christian faith could rally behind.
Yeah, you know, yeah. If this is authentic, that's the
image of our savior that that that's like a game-winning
touchdown. You know, I mean, to any
skeptic, it would be like, boom, take that.
You know what I mean? I.
Agree. I agree.
And you know. I don't know man, I think this
is beautiful. I, I do too.
And you know, he looks, he looks like how, how I would picture
Jesus looking. You know, he's a, he's a, a
Middle Eastern kind of tall, sturdy guy, you know, and, and
he, that, who's been tortured and humiliated and, and he's
preserved, his image is preserved perfectly.
And, and, and it's like it's evidence of the existence of
Jesus, his crucifixion. And I think you could argue the
resurrection because really there's no explanation for how
it's created other than the release of energy, right?
You know. Internally from, from, from the
inside of that, from. Within, Yeah, And people try to
people try to make these weird. There's this Brazilian grad
student who keeps publishing these papers saying it can't be
real because the image, if it was from a pressing, would be
warped, not realizing that as believers, you know, we don't
think it was from a pressing. We don't think this is a sweat
stain. You know, we think this is an
image captured by energy, probably ultraviolet light.
And there's some good evidence for for maybe it being plasma,
you know, because plasma releases a lot of UV light, but
it does so along electrical field lines.
And so it can actually transfer an image really well.
And they've done this in in experiments in a way where it
wouldn't be warped. And the fact that it's not
warped is a real problem for the pressing hypothesis, right?
It's like a photo. And what do photos?
Use. You know photos use light,
right? Yeah, 'cause there's no burn at
all. So any kind of emission would
have been like a flash, right? Yeah, it it.
Would have to have gone so quickly.
Quick, and maybe not even that hot.
I mean, it could just be that the structure of the cellulose
was altered by a brief flash of UV and maybe the image wasn't
really there at first because that's another argument is like,
why didn't the disciples write about this?
This is insane, you know, and it, it could be that the linen
looked pretty normal, you know, and, and maybe it was so slight
that they just assumed what everyone assumed until 1900,
that it was like sweat or, or, or or blood or something, you
know, and they kept the cloth because it's still an important
relic. But it wasn't for, you know, a
long time later that the image really solidified as the exposed
regions age differently than the non exposed regions.
I mean, that's just a hypothesis.
We don't know, but certainly. Well, that makes sense.
I mean, even like oils from your hands, you know, can, can stain,
you know, and the same comes more more evident with time, you
know, as it has exposure and it yellows or whatever.
Sun, it all changed. Imagine and imagine that over
1000 years, you know, Yeah, yeah.
So anyway. This is awesome man.
I. Like, man, yeah, I appreciate
it. Sorry my internet's weird and
I'll probably at some point need to go entertain my son.
He's being he's being good now, though.
Appreciate you buddy. He found he's got his iPad
working so. Yeah, man.
But. Yeah, I won't keep you long.
I just, I do have a question for you and it's kind of unrelated,
but it it involves your walk and I, I hate to put you on the
spot, Trevor, I, I promise I'm not trying to be mean here.
I'll put you on the spot. But your mindset, you know, you
have a science background and you were atheist for so long,
how would you? Or is there like, I doubt
there's a cut and draw a way to do it.
But if you were to talk to another atheist, and I know we
don't, it's not our job to convince people of Christ, but
what, what do you think is a compelling thing to someone who
is an atheist but willing to listen to to maybe reveal Christ
to him? This is a question.
I How would you how would you share the gospel with an
atheist? I wrestle with this so much.
I mean, that that was my, that was kind of the idea behind the
first book is like, I've basically been like preaching
for the adversary my whole life. You know, I need to undo some of
this, you know, not that that's how I think it necessarily
works, but just like I felt ashamed and guilty, you know,
And so I try, I try to write it in a way where it was like
convincing to that type of person, but I don't, I don't
know if I've really found, I mean, I've had some people who
are more on the fence tell me that the book was powerful for
them. But I don't know if I've had
like an out and out, like atheist say like, Oh, you show
me the light. And I, and I think it's because
I just, I just don't, I just don't think there is a purely
scientific argument that's convincing because every piece
of evidence can be used to support to this.
And this is an important point to mutually exclusive arguments.
And so imagine, you know, imagine there's four of you
sitting around a table and there's a stack of cards in the
middle of the table and there's a dealer.
OK. And the dealer says, OK, I want
each of you to put 100 bucks on a suit.
You know, is it hearts, is it diamonds?
Is it clubs or is it spades? And so everyone picks a suit
and, and they each have to pick a different 1.
So all four suits are accounted for.
And the dealer kind of sneaks a look at the top card and looks
back at everyone and goes, OK, I'm going to give you a hint.
You can't change your guess, but I'm going to give you a hint.
It's red. So in that situation, the same
piece of evidence supports hearts just as much as diamonds,
right? And so this is constantly what
we see in science because the the evidence for God is real
evidence. And So what people do is they
create stand insurance for God. You know, they say the
multiverse theory. And so any piece of evidence
that supports God is probably going to support the multiverse
theory. And any piece of evidence that
supports this creation is probably going to support, you
know, so they, they, they make an imitation like a counterfeit.
I don't think it's intentional necessarily, but they make a
counterfeit explanation, a counterfeit God.
You know, you hear people say, like the universe told me, you
know, this is just, they're just just counterfeit language.
It means kind of the same thing. And so I don't really think it's
possible ultimately for me, I think you just got to hit a
point in your life where you're like, let me just read this
thing, you know, and I do encourage people, you know, how
do you share the Gospel? You asked me?
I think that's literally what you do.
You just, you got to try to convince someone to read Matthew
or John or whatever, because it's hard to have like a
principled atheist position when you read.
I think I read Matthew first, which later now people tell me
like, maybe that's not the right one to start with, you know, but
I just read that I'm like, there's there's no moral reason
to be against this. And so like I really have to
evaluate why I'm like so adamant that it's not real.
Is it really, is it really objective reasoning?
Because it's not really true. I mean, we we kind of lie as
scientists about what we know. And so I don't know.
I think it's, I ultimately I think God is plays the primary
role, you know, so it's just our job to sort of encourage people
to read the Bible now. That's it.
I mean, I try to make scientific arguments all the time on my
podcast, but that's just more because I'm curious, you know, I
don't, I don't know, I don't know how convincing it is.
Now for agnostics, I think the science angle can be helpful
because they already sort of believe in something.
They just want to be convinced what to believe in.
So I think I that's where I find the most traction.
Yeah, Amen. That sounds good.
That makes sense. That makes sense because I, I
have AI have a couple of people that I love so much and I hold
them and their thoughts and their feelings and their
opinions so dear. But this is our one point of
contention, you know, And they. Have tried to explain or tried
to argue their case, and then they get into the emotional side
of a conversation and I get along, you know, like, and I'm
not going to try to. Yeah.
And I, I'm not going to. I I try not to match that energy
and still make a valid case for I.
I just want to want to sow some seeds, you know what I mean?
And give them something to think about later.
I think I think that's the right approach, man, because I think
atheists tend to have a lot of pride and that that, you know,
humans do. But.
And so I don't think they really want to be convinced.
But yeah, if you can plant seeds.
I mean, a big thing for me was being reflective and saying, why
am I emotional about this? Like, I'm trying to make this
claim that I'm the scientific objective guy convinced by
rational arguments. And when I talk about this, I
get super defensive. And so clearly it's not just
objective, you know, 'cause if, if you told me the sky is red, I
want to get upset, you know, 'cause like, I know it's blue,
you know, so, so the fact that an atheist gets so defensive, it
there's some, there's something in them, you know, there's
something in them wrestling with it.
And I think a good strategy. Not again, not that you can
convince people's somehow encourage them to like, really
ask themselves why, like, what are you wrestling with?
And I think it's number one, pride and #2 resentment.
I think if somebody's had like a lot of bad things happen to
them, it's sort of like, why? Like, why would would this
happen to me? You know?
I think it's like a bad relationship with your dad, you
know, It's like, it's like pride and resent there.
It's like just a bundle of emotions.
And it's not till later in life that you go like, OK, I mean #1
there's such a thing as bad dad. So put that aside.
But I think even people with good dads, you know, they just
wrestle with something with their dad.
And I think you look back and you go, OK.
For me, certainly now that I have kids, like bad things, I
need to let bad things happen in there.
You know, I need them to learn things.
I can't necessarily give them a perfect cushy world because
they're going to turn out wrong, you know?
And so that helped me a little bit with resentment.
But I think everybody's got their own kind of walk.
It's tough, man. I think about this a lot.
I really do. Yeah.
I can tell and that the example
you gave, I'm glad. I'm glad I asked that question
because the example you gave the the paternal struggle at that's
part of their The Who I have in my mind and on my heart, that's
part of their natural side of life struggle.
So I could see where that extra resemble.
A lot of a lot of famous atheists have real problems with
their father. And it's a common theme.
It makes sense because what is fatherhood?
You know, it's like a microcosm of a relationship with God, you
know, like, so if you haven't had benevolent father modeled
for you, it's tough to believe in.
You know, if you've never seen it, how are you going to believe
in it? You know?
So yeah, it's tough. It's tough.
But anyway, so yeah, I hope people check out the book Shroud
Pilled. It's it's definitely more on the
scientific side. No, I don't think it's like dry.
I think it's good to have like ammo, you know, but it's I'm,
I'm trying to make the scientific case, you know, so
hopefully people are all right with that and and God's eye view
Amazon. I need, I need you guys to give
me some five stars. I got this like essay from this
shroud skeptic guy. You made one good point.
I might actually change. It's important to be open to
feedback. But but then but then yeah.
But then if people want to check out God's Eye view as well,
that's an audio book. So if you have Audible, you can
it's also paperback, but or just check out the podcast.
The podcast is free, so check that out too.
Awesome God's Eye View Podcast, Bad Press Podcast, Shroud Peeled
and God's Eye View the Book on Amazon.
Dude, I love it. I'm so grateful for you coming
on the show today. I'm going to let you get, you
know, get with your baby over there and enjoy your evening.
But I thank you, Trevor for taking the time man to talk to
me again. Thank you, Bill.
Appreciate it. All right, brother, you have a
good evening. God bless.
See ya.
Talk to you later. Bye.
That's it for this week. Thank you so much for listening.
If you have an experience or an encounter that you'd like to
share, holler at me. You can reach me at
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Leave a text or a voicemail either way, and I'll get back to
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special invitation if you're personally ready to submit your
life to God and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
The book of Romans chapter 10 verse 9 says it really simply,
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe
in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be
saved. It's that simple to be born
again, to start a new life as a child of God, to join God's
army, to rise up against the evil forces that you know we're
all around you. You don't have to do it alone.
I love you, Jesus loves you, and May God bless you.
In the distance, Jesus with his gone the quietest smoke, with a
voice that sounds like from the earth, the streets of gold.
Here's a beer. This is like like saying hi upon
his strong as 10,000 times 10,000 saying we find.
We Hallelujah right away, forever, thank you.
Right away, Name of Jesus. Oh my soul.
Thank you God. Where the tree of life is only
where the earth has not been told.
No more tears in that bright city death will have to fling
over the world. Do well more.
See the perfect day. Glory, glory.
Thank you Jesus, blessed God. Praise the holy name of Jesus.
Oh my soul, Thank you. There's a table in that kind of
tree. See that way, The sight of oh,
thank you God, with the troubles far behind him to never suffer,
he and I'm going home in the morning to that land.
You're so bright and fat. You walk the street.
You ain't to go with Jesus. Name that city Bill Foursquare.
Glory, glory and your blessing, Jesus.
I'm going home to live with Jesus on that happy Golden Shoe.
Thank you, Lord. Welcome to Appalachia and the
land of ancient curses, burial, mounds of giants, mysterious
artifacts, legends of cryptids, spiritual warfare, the
paranormal, principalities, witchcraft, portals, and seven
friends caught in the middle of it all.
This is my book Terror by Night. It's my first fiction novel.
I hope you guys check it out. It's available on Amazon in
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and it is full of research material on that entity known as
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There's something for everybody in it.
It's got action, adventure, lost love, and warfare.
Pick up a copy today, check it out, and let me know what you
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God bless.