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Welcome to Appalachia and the 
land of ancient curses, burial, 

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mounds of giants, mysterious 
artifacts, legends of cryptids, 

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spiritual warfare, the 
paranormal, principalities, 

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witchcraft, portals, and seven 
friends caught in the middle of 

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it all. 
This is my book Terror by Night.

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It's my first fiction novel. 
I hope you guys check it out. 

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It's available on Amazon in 
paperback, e-book, or hardback. 

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I had a lot of fun writing this 
and it is full of research 

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material on that entity known as
Lilith. 

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Also tons of notes on spiritual 
warfare. 

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It's close to my heart. 
I had a lot of fun writing this 

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book and my wife loves it. 
There's something for everybody 

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in it. 
It's got action, adventure, lost

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love, and warfare. 
Pick up a copy today, check it 

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out, and let me know what you 
think. 

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God bless. 
For those interested in 

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spiritual warfare, please check 
out my book it's called Army of 

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God Pocket Guide to Spiritual 
warfare. 

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It's available on Amazon and 
paperback, hardback and I 

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believe now the Kindle edition. 
So please check it out and be 

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sure to leave a five star rating
review Amazon. 

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It's easy to find. 
God bless. 

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Isaiah 46 says my people are 
destroyed from a lack of 

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knowledge. 
So now that we have this 

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knowledge, we have to remember 
to walk in Second Timothy 17, 

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which says, For God has not 
given us a spirit of fear, but 

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of power, and of love, and of a 
sound. 

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Mind when he turned his back 
from shoulder to shoulder. 

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Look like as wide as the 
tailgate of a truck. 

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This thing. 
Let out the most blood curdling.

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Mind blowing. 
Spine. 

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Tingling stream that you've ever
heard in your life and it cut 

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through me like a knife. 
And I knew that they were going 

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to take me. 
I just knew it. 

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And then the next thing I can 
remember is being levitated 

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well. 
When I look in there I. 

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See two big odds staring back at
me. 

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Hello and welcome. 
You're listening to the Bump 

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Podcast, a place for the 
believers of the unexplained 

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monsters and paranormal. 
Join us and we'll go face to 

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face with what goes Bump in the 
Night. 

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Hey there believers. 
I got another great episode for 

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you this week. 
Today I'm bringing back Trevor. 

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He is an author and his latest 
book is about the Shroud of 

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Turin and I'm super excited to 
get into this. 

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We touched on it last time when 
I had him on the show and this 

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time he's, he's got the book 
published and I, I just, I can't

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wait to talk to him about it. 
If you have an experience or 

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something you'd like to talk 
about it about holler at me. 

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It's my e-mail address is 
thebumppodcast@gmail.com. 

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I look forward to hearing from 
you. 

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I'm, I'm open to a lot of 
different things. 

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If you guys want to start 
branching out a little bit with 

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what you want to hear or what 
you want to say, have at it. 

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You know, of course I in my 
world view, everything revolves 

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around Christ. 
But you know, if, if your 

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subject matter is a little 
different, if it's just 

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something that you know, you're,
you're passionate about 

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something that you have the 
experience in your testimony, 

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you know your story, I want to 
hear it. 

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It doesn't have to be spooky. 
It doesn't have to be spiritual 

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warfare. 
I love those things. 

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But you know, this show can be 
as fluid as the guests that 

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e-mail me. 
So holler at me. 

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I want to thank everybody. 
I'm coming up on one year since 

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I released the Army of God 
Pocket God for Spiritual Warfare

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and so close to 1000 sales so 
far online. 

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It's. 
It's over 900, so close to 1000.

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And I want to thank you guys for
that. 

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It's a major, it's a big deal 
for self published books to get 

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that far. 
And I had, I had joked with my 

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wife about it, about wanting 
that to be my goal number, but I

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didn't foresee that happening. 
But I sold a couple more today. 

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So it's just like it's got a 
life of its own, you know, Glory

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be to God. 
Yeah. 

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Not much has changed here at 
home. 

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So if you know, then continue to
keep us in your prayers. 

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All right, let's go ahead and 
bring Trevor on. 

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We're going to get into this 
shroud. 

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If we get into other things, you
know, I know there's so much 

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going on in the world. 
You know, I have somebody that I

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was I served with overseas. 
Right now. 

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He's a contractor, he's in 
Kuwait. 

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And the picture that he paints 
of what's going on with this 

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Iran conflict is way different 
than what some of us are seeing 

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on on the news. 
OK. 

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So just. 
Pray for wisdom, you know, from 

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every party. 
I hate that this is happening. 

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You know, I hate that this is 
happening, but yeah, well, I 

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mean, there's so many things to 
go into. 

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You know, there's Epstein. 
There's, I don't know if that 

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Guthrie lady has ever been 
found. 

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Just kind of quit talking about 
it. 

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As far as I know. 
We had this Iran conflict. 

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We have Zionists versus people 
who have read their Bible. 

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There's so much, so much to get 
into. 

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But right now, let's bring 
Trevor on. 

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OK God bless, Trevor. 
Thank you so much for coming on,

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man. 
I appreciate you taking the time

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with me and working through time
zone differences and all that. 

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No, you were nice. 
You're staying up late for me 

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so. 
It's no problem at all dude. 

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Welcome back man. 
Good to be back, good to talk to

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you man. 
Thank you, Sir. 

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So you got this new book Shroud 
peeled, right? 

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Yes, I do. 
And I'm doing the the book job, 

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which is going out there and 
trying to tell everyone about 

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it. 
It's been fun. 

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Kind of waded into a much more 
controversial area than I 

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realized with the Shroud of 
Turn. 

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So it's been interesting. 
It's been an interesting few 

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months. 
I'd say so. 

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Are are you being well received 
overall? 

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Yeah, I mean, so I I wrote, I 
wrote the first book like a year

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ago or so. 
And you know, I've been an 

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atheist my whole life. 
It was kind of, you know, I was 

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kind of like coming out as a 
Christian in a way, even though 

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the book's not about me. 
It's about, you know, quantum 

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physics and neuroscience. 
And I expected it to be pretty 

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controversial, you know, because
here I am a scientist, I'm 

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putting PhD on the cover. 
And I expected to get some 

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pushback. 
And I, I really didn't. 

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I mean, a few, a few people, you
know, but sorry, my son's asking

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for a code on his iPad. 
Sorry, but I don't know. 

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Anyway, anyway, it was pretty 
tame. 

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But, you know, the reason I 
think it was tame is that I 

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didn't, I was still pretty 
insecure about being a 

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Christian, especially surrounded
by I mean, everyone I work with 

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is an atheist. 
You know, I work at a medical 

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school and what funny enough, 
you would think there'd be, you 

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know, you would hope there'd be 
some religious people and in 

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medicine, but at the kind of the
top levels in universities, 

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that's not really the case. 
But I mean, I didn't get too 

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much pushback. 
I but also I didn't really like 

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come out and say Christ is king 
either. 

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You know, I just sort of talked 
about how science supports the 

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idea of God being real, contrary
to popular belief, you know, and

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that's always been the case. 
That's what the early the 

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fathers of science thoughts like
no one thought they were. 

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I'm I'm sure some did, I mean 
some are occultists and stuff, 

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but I think generally society 
thought science was just a way 

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of studying God. 
And nowadays you look at the 

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stuff these physicists are 
saying about quantum fields and 

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simulation theory and like 
clearly, clearly they're just 

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talking about God and creation, 
trying to use different words, 

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right. 
So, so that was the book people 

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liked it got lots of reviews, 
good reviews, sold more than I 

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expected for a sort of self 
published book. 

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Yes. 
Then I wrote about the Shroud of

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Turin. 
It was a whole different, whole 

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different animal. 
I, I had no idea. 

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There's just so much controversy
around that topic. 

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So in science, in Christianity, 
I mean, the amount of devotion 

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some atheists have towards 
disproving the shroud, like, I 

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don't understand it. 
It's like, I can't imagine 

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reading books and writing books 
about a topic I don't believe 

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in, you know, but right, there's
whole groups of scholars who 

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cling to these little proofs 
that they think disprove the 

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shroud and they buy my book and 
they leave bad reviews. 

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You know, I, I think I even got 
one from this like big time 

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shroud skeptic who's like maybe 
the most well known because 

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he's, he's making all of the 
arguments that I know this guy 

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makes. 
Anyway, it's been an interesting

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ride. 
I, I just wanted to approach the

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topic like as a curious person, 
you know, I believe, I believe 

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that the resurrection happened. 
So obviously I'm more open to it

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than many others. 
And I can also read scientific 

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papers and there are a lot on 
the topic. 

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So I read them. 
I wrote a book that was, it 

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wasn't preachy by any means. 
It was sort of, I was trying to 

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be unbiased. 
But ultimately, you know, I 

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think it's real and I say as 
much and it's been interesting, 

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man. 
It's been interesting. 

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Got a lot, gotten a lot of push 
back from atheists and from some

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Christians. 
I had no idea that it was a 

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controversial issue in 
Christianity. 

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Oh yeah, man. 
Sort of a Protestant Catholicism

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divide. 
I I'm getting into stuff I was 

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just I'll equipped and 
unprepared for. 

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So it's been interesting. 
What what's what are your 

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thoughts on it? 
We talked about. 

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It in the past, but it was a 
while ago. 

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Yeah, dude, I'm, I'm all in for 
the shroud being authentic. 

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I really am. 
But I think that this is a 

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perfect time for for this kind 
of conversation. 

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You know, there's a lot of 
division right now within the 

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Christian community already 
these topics coming up between 

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Zionism and you know, that the 
view that the Catholics have had

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for 2000 years is different than
the this Zionist view that I 

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don't know. 
I don't know how you feel about 

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it. 
And I'm, I'm sure I'm not going 

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to try to argue with anyone, but
I wouldn't want to argue with a 

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guest on the show. 
I'll tell you that. 

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You know what I mean? 
But you know, I, I see where I 

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can see where they're coming 
from with that view. 

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Which view? 
Which side? 

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Of the the Zionist view I got, I
understand where they're where 

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they're coming from with that. 
But I also, when I've read the 

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Bible, I don't agree with the 
Zionist view. 

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You know what I mean? 
I see things in like first Kings

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Chapter 11 where Solomon went 
against the face of the Lord and

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he stripped him down to one, one
tribe, which was Judah. 

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And then in second Kings, 
towards the end, a king tries to

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make amends and set everything 
back to write and God's like, 

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no, it's not happening. 
So I'm even taking Judah away. 

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And so there are people without 
a nation, you know, And they, 

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these kings broke the covenant 
and God allowed it to just end. 

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At least that's the way I read 
it. 

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I don't know, it just seems 
like. 

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I mean, I, I have to be so 
careful with what I say 'cause 

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this is so con such a 
controversial issue, especially 

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on university campuses, which 
is, you know, who my employer 

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is. 
So I always, you know, I kind of

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shy away from this argument, but
it's hard to shy away from it's 

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becoming, it's becoming like the
controversial issue of our time,

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which I never would have 
guessed, you know, big time, you

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know, Israel and Palestine, like
as a kid, it was like a Seinfeld

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bit. 
You know, it's funny. 

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00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,920
It was like over there, like it 
didn't have anything to do with 

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00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:53,400
us. 
It was a minor issue. 

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00:13:54,560 --> 00:13:57,680
Now it's the whole world 
revolves around this topic. 

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And, you know, you're seeing 
things on TV, you're seeing 

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00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,560
senators, you know, not to get 
too crazy here, but saying that 

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00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,000
saying Christ as king is 
anti-Semitic. 

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00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,360
And, and, you know, there's 
probably people out there who 

226
00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:13,720
argue it. 
Maybe it is. 

227
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,840
You know, it's, and I don't mean
that at what what I'm saying is 

228
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,000
like that. 
There's clearly some tension. 

229
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:23,120
Like you read the New Testament,
it's pretty clear who Jesus is 

230
00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:29,440
up against, you know, and sort 
of the religious authority of 

231
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,600
his day and the people who 
reject him as the Jewish 

232
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,720
Messiah. 
And so, yeah, I get why this is 

233
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:41,840
tense and I, it sounds like I'm 
probably more in line with what 

234
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,240
you are saying, you know, just 
to say. 

235
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:49,720
But, you know, it's, it has 
nothing to do with ethnicity 

236
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:54,440
really, you know, So nothing at 
all, actually. 

237
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,600
But I don't know, man. 
It's the pressure is getting 

238
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,000
intense. 
Somebody confronted me at the 

239
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,280
coffee shop about this. 
They, they listened to one of my

240
00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:08,320
podcasts and I said something 
about the war, you know, and 

241
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,680
totally minor, like not nothing,
just like I, I thought we 

242
00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,160
weren't going to do this kind of
a thing, you know, and like I 

243
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,520
got confronted about 
anti-Semitism and stuff and I 

244
00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:20,160
was like. 
Wow, I. 

245
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:22,760
Was like, dude, what are you 
talking about? 

246
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:29,160
And I'm just again, I'm this is 
a kind of controversy I'm not 

247
00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,400
prepared for. 
I, I did not grow up in church. 

248
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:36,120
And so when I read the gospel 
for the first time, I had no 

249
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,720
preconceived notions at all. 
Right. 

250
00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:44,520
And you know, come to find out 
there's like there's long 

251
00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:49,360
standing traditions around 
dispensationalism and 

252
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:53,000
evangelical evangelicalism. 
And I just didn't know about 

253
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:54,440
that. 
You know, I thought Christian 

254
00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:55,840
was Christian. 
I know there's like this 

255
00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:01,320
Protestant Catholic thing, but 
it's, I guess it's time for me 

256
00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,680
to bone up on this stuff because
it doesn't seem like you can 

257
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:08,000
escape it, which I think is a 
sign that it's an important 

258
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:08,640
issue. 
So. 

259
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:11,280
I do too. 
And you know, I I hate the 

260
00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:15,080
division that is causing. 
Yeah, I think that it is 

261
00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,960
ultimately just a way to take 
our eyes off the cross. 

262
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:25,480
I agree. 
And hopefully, you know, the 

263
00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,360
worst case scenario when it all 
is that it'll just be another 

264
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,880
denomination and we'll just keep
pushing forward. 

265
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,640
You know, it'll just be one more
branch of Protestantism. 

266
00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:37,760
And, you know, I mean, how many 
times has it been divided 

267
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,600
already? 
I mean, let's just just I'm. 

268
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,280
Hoping for that, you know, I'm 
hoping that six months from now 

269
00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,760
we're like, oh, that was a weird
chapter, But I don't know, man, 

270
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:47,880
I, I don't, I don't think it's 
going to be like that. 

271
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,120
I just went on a, this is a sort
of a subject change, but I just 

272
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,960
got back from a two week road 
trip and we actually tried to 

273
00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,200
record over the trip and I 
messed up the time zone thing. 

274
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,960
So sorry. 
But we went up to Seattle and we

275
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,560
drove and then we drove back. 
So it's a long, you know, I live

276
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,680
in LA, so it's a long drive. 
And we stopped in all these 

277
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:15,000
little towns and we saw all 
these beautiful old like 

278
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:21,119
denominational churches, you 
know, and the probably is almost

279
00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,480
as old as California itself, you
know, which I guess, I guess 

280
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,680
compared to your neck of the 
woods isn't that old, but maybe 

281
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,720
100 years old. 
And they all had, you know, 

282
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,240
trans flags on them. 
And 1 was like all rainbow 

283
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,120
everything. 
Like we welcome everyone kind of

284
00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:39,520
a thing, which is a fine 
sentiment. 

285
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,840
But there is 12 rainbow flags. 
You know, 1 cross. 

286
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:44,440
Right. 
Yeah. 

287
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,680
And, and then, you know, all my 
listeners, for whatever reason, 

288
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,640
because my show started off 
atheist, they kind of have like 

289
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,800
a, a bad taste in their mouth 
about Catholicism. 

290
00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,240
And so, you know, it's no wonder
that evangelicalism is like the 

291
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,680
only thing growing right now in 
America, I guess. 

292
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,760
And I don't know if that's good.
I mean, I again, I don't know. 

293
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,000
I don't know enough about this 
stuff. 

294
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,000
I tend to get in trouble every 
time I talk about it. 

295
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,680
But I, I just couldn't help but 
think like, what is happening to

296
00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:17,680
American Christianity? 
You know, it seems very 

297
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,720
fractured. 
It really is. 

298
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,840
It really is. 
Everything's went kind of, I 

299
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,160
don't know, it went beyond 
tolerant, if that, if there's a 

300
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:36,480
term, if I would want to use 
even to just like pandering, you

301
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:42,480
know, I don't know that there's 
not much leeway. 

302
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,960
Like as far as being biblical, 
you either you are or you're 

303
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:51,440
not. 
And to stand on that truth is a 

304
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,640
little more important than 
standing, you know, being 

305
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,120
politically correct. 
And it's, I think that might be 

306
00:18:58,120 --> 00:18:59,760
in part of what's hurt my 
numbers. 

307
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:05,200
You know, about six months ago, 
I've noticed a sharp decrease in

308
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:11,160
my, my downloads on here. 
And I, I just, I've studied and 

309
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,160
studied and looked at, you know,
trends and what episodes do well

310
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:23,040
and what ones don't. 
And, you know, I've kind of, I, 

311
00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:27,600
I don't shape my show, you know,
I go by just to, you know, who's

312
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,400
listening, you know, who calls 
in, who wants to be on the show 

313
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:31,680
or whatever. 
You know, I'll schedule it. 

314
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:39,400
But it's just naturally trended 
less toward the, you know, the 

315
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:45,480
boogeyman stuff and more towards
spiritual warfare or biblical 

316
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,960
discussions and stuff like that.
So that hasn't really hurt the 

317
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:50,080
numbers. 
You know, I picked up a 

318
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:51,560
different audience, I think. 
Right, right. 

319
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:58,480
But I I did an episode and I 
titled it Freedom and it was in 

320
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,160
like the Charlie Kirk letters is
what I put on the cover art. 

321
00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:03,680
Yeah. 
And we talked on that for just a

322
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,600
minute, just a minute we talked 
about it. 

323
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:11,480
It was right after it happened. 
And I think it was since the end

324
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,160
that the the listeners started 
falling off a little bit. 

325
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:17,960
And even that is kind of 
shocking to me. 

326
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,440
You know what I mean? 
It's like, love him or hate him,

327
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:22,560
you know, everybody has an 
opinion. 

328
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,200
Kind of like Flat Earth, you 
know, it's like love it or hate 

329
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:27,680
it. 
You want to listen to it, You 

330
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,000
want to see what's being said. 
There's always like one topic 

331
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,080
that's divisive within the 
community, you know, like it. 

332
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,880
Same for me. 
Like I 'cause my, my 

333
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,560
listenership, you know, I'm very
right wing, you know, but right,

334
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,360
you know, right wing politics, 
like those are principles, you 

335
00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:47,920
know. 
And so if, if the, the actions 

336
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,680
of a certain candidate, I'm like
tiptoeing around here, you know,

337
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,080
don't line up with the 
principles you've believed in 

338
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,480
for a certain amount of time, 
it's OK to just mention it, you 

339
00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,480
know, And so I just mention it 
and man, I got pushed back. 

340
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:05,040
You know, I, I, I, I get like 
Democrat talking points from 

341
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,120
Republicans now. 
And I'm like, guys, what's what 

342
00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:08,840
happened, man? 
Like this is, we're in a whole 

343
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:09,760
new world. 
What are you doing? 

344
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,240
Last year, you were on my side 
about this. 

345
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,200
It's I just think, dude, I think
this is crazy for me to say as a

346
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,040
lifelong atheist, a new 
Christian, but it just feels 

347
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,760
like spiritual warfare. 
Exactly. 

348
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,400
You know, it's there's deception
and not that I know everything 

349
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:32,960
and not that I'm like resistant 
to it, but I don't know what 

350
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:34,680
else to call it. 
It just feels like we're all 

351
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,760
just sort of spells are getting 
cast on us, you know, for lack 

352
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:39,280
of a better. 
Word. 

353
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,960
Yeah, yeah, bro yeah. 
And I think figuratively and 

354
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,440
literally, there's spells being 
cast against things that stand 

355
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,680
for the Lord. 
What's, what's the name of your 

356
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,280
show? 
Let's plug it real quick too. 

357
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:52,280
Oh. 
Yeah, yeah. 

358
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,760
So God's Eye View is is my show.
I do by myself, same name as my 

359
00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,920
first book, God's Eye View. 
It's kind of named after this 

360
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:07,640
like oxymoron in science that 
says, you know, that this whole 

361
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:13,000
universe exists even without a 
God or a human in it. 

362
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,480
It just is. 
It's just exists. 

363
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,960
It's physical, it's real. 
And ironically, they named that 

364
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,360
a God's Eye view, you know, and 
so I just, I like, you know, I 

365
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:23,720
like kind of playing with that 
in the book. 

366
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:28,000
And yeah, so, so that's my show 
that I do on my own. 

367
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,560
I do another, another show. 
It's a little bit more political

368
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,640
and stuff with a friend of mine 
called Bad Press. 

369
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,760
And yeah, so God's Eye View and 
Bad Press, they're audio only, 

370
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,400
you know, so listenership is 
kind of small. 

371
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,160
It's more for me, you know, I 
just like talking about stuff 

372
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,160
with people. 
So we've got a kind of small but

373
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:49,880
loyal group of people over 
there. 

374
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,360
And I just want to clarify our 
earlier conversation. 

375
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:59,560
I am, I think if you're, if you 
accept Jesus Christ as your Lord

376
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,600
and Savior, you're on my team. 
You know, I think you can be a 

377
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,920
Zionist, I guess, and we can 
still be friends. 

378
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,320
You know, we and I'm sure we 
have a lot of mutual enemies, 

379
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,840
right? 
But I'm not always sure that 

380
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:15,600
they feel the same way about my 
views. 

381
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,680
You know, maybe that's maybe 
that's just me, but yeah. 

382
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,240
And that's like a new thing, 
man. 

383
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,440
Exactly. 
It's so new. 

384
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:30,480
It's like if you disagree, they 
don't just call you 

385
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,480
anti-Semitic, they they're 
calling you. 

386
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:34,720
They're questioning your 
Christianity. 

387
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,400
Exactly. 
Yeah, it's like a salvation 

388
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:37,800
issue. 
Yeah, exactly. 

389
00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:42,120
Yeah. 
And I'm like, no, you know, it's

390
00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:47,120
like there there's one way to 
heaven, right? 

391
00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:51,600
And that's through Jesus Christ.
So that's all-encompassing, 

392
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,160
that's all inclusive, that's 
everyone on earth. 

393
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:02,600
And they're like, oh, I've been 
people say like replacement 

394
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,680
theology. 
No, it's not replacement 

395
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,320
theology. 
It's fulfillment of prophecy. 

396
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,720
It's fulfillment of every 
parable that Jesus tried to 

397
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,200
explain. 
You know, they're having the the

398
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:19,120
wedding supper and the wedding 
party, and people don't come. 

399
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,600
So what do they do? 
They go out and they bring 

400
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,640
others in. 
Yeah, you know, and they're 

401
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,800
filling the table because the 
table is going to get filled. 

402
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,360
You know, it's not to replace 
anybody. 

403
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:31,560
It's to fulfill what was 
supposed to be. 

404
00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:34,120
Exactly. 
And then you've got the wicked 

405
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:36,080
vine dresser, right? 
That's another one of these 

406
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:40,080
parables that's sort of relevant
and, and just the idea that 

407
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,840
there would be like an ethnic 
claim to salvation, I think. 

408
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,000
I think as Americans, we should 
kind of reject that, right? 

409
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,960
Like God is able to raise up 
sons of Abraham from these 

410
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,960
stones, right? 
And so, yeah, I don't, I don't 

411
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,840
get it. 
There's lots of new fancy words 

412
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:03,760
that are being created to like 
label me and others and, and 

413
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:05,400
listen, this is not, this is not
an issue. 

414
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,440
Like I don't want to, I don't 
even really want to be 

415
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,120
associated with this kind of 
topic. 

416
00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:10,560
It's just I'm not going to. 
I'm not. 

417
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,520
You can't compel me to say 
something. 

418
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,800
You know, this was the whole 
reason the trans stuff bothered 

419
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:20,280
me because I was working in the 
university system and like, they

420
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,200
want me to put pronouns in my 
e-mail and I'm like, no, no one 

421
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,080
has any doubts that I'm a dude. 
You know, I've got a scraggly 

422
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,600
beard and I don't, I don't need 
to say he him in my e-mail. 

423
00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:33,520
And it became like, it became 
like almost like I was going to 

424
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,640
be fired over it. 
And so I, I don't like, I'm an 

425
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,960
American. 
I'm a Christian, really the 

426
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,080
trans thing. 
Both of it violates both of my 

427
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,600
identities as an American, as a 
Christian, you know, And so it's

428
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,200
like, I'm not going to, I'm not 
going to say it. 

429
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:50,720
And I feel like we're getting 
there again. 

430
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:55,000
I mean, the this side, this side
of the argument lately people 

431
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,280
have been saying the woke, 
right? 

432
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,000
But I feel like it's the exact 
opposite. 

433
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:03,120
Like you're you're using trans 
arguments to get me to make me 

434
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:08,080
say things like that's woke, you
know, like, like I'm not, I'm 

435
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:09,200
not woke. 
I'm the same guy. 

436
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,880
I've always been, you know, and 
yeah, so clearly this has been 

437
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,960
on my mind too, because I didn't
even plan to talk about this, 

438
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:17,600
but. 
Right. 

439
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,760
Yeah, it. 
Just feels like I'm under siege 

440
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:22,560
sometimes. 
I don't want to talk about it. 

441
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,760
People like I'm not obsessed, 
you know, emailing me. 

442
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,480
People keep messaging me in the 
Discord and it's like I, you 

443
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,080
know, anyway, so. 
Yeah, dude, I'm with you, man. 

444
00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:36,680
I I gave blood the other day and
it's like, you know, that's face

445
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,160
to face. 
You're in there at a donation 

446
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,400
center, like a mobile donation 
center. 

447
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:46,520
And this guy who was probably 
older than I am also a big guy 

448
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,920
with a beard, he's like, OK, so 
what's your gender? 

449
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:50,720
And I couldn't help but laugh, 
dude. 

450
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,040
I'm like, that's before I shaved
my beard down. 

451
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,280
So it was like hanging down, 
like, past my collar. 

452
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,360
And I'm like, bro, are you 
serious? 

453
00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:01,600
You know, I was like, come on, 
man, unbelievable. 

454
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,560
Let's not play anymore. 
Let's just just quit playing. 

455
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,680
That's one thing we needed. 
I need to be thankful for and I,

456
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:13,240
I don't express this compliment 
enough about the current 

457
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,040
administration. 
Is that that most of that seems 

458
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,280
to be sort of gone. 
Yeah, it might come back, but 

459
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,840
for now that seems to be long 
gone. 

460
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,600
And I'm grateful for that 
because that was that was upside

461
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,000
down world, man. 
Yes, yes, it was. 

462
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,120
And I think I'm picking up what 
you're saying there too. 

463
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,040
I am looking for things to still
be grateful for with this 

464
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:33,840
administration. 
Me. 

465
00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:39,560
Too. 
I'm like, this is not, this is 

466
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,400
not the promises of no more war,
I'll tell you that. 

467
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,440
I know, I know, man, I know. 
It's listen, I'm not like I'm 

468
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,640
not a pacifist. 
Like I get, I understand the 

469
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:57,120
need, you know, for war under 
certain situations, but like you

470
00:27:57,120 --> 00:28:00,840
need, you need, that's the last 
resort, you know, especially as 

471
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,640
Christians, right? 
Like, we don't want to be 

472
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:09,160
violent unless we have to be, 
you know, And and, you know, put

473
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,760
that aside for a second. 
It was pretty clear that this is

474
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:14,840
what we all wanted, right? 
We didn't want to get involved 

475
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:16,200
in this stuff in the Middle 
East. 

476
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,880
Like, especially like, my age 
range. 

477
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,000
Yeah. 
Bro. 

478
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,960
We, we went through the whole 
thing, you know, we went through

479
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,840
all the countries in the Middle 
East and like, we're just over 

480
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,600
it, You know, everything's 
expensive. 

481
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,840
It's hard to find work for a lot
of people. 

482
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,320
And we just don't want to get 
involved, right. 

483
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,800
Unless, unless, unless, 
literally, like our liberties 

484
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:40,440
are on the line. 
And I guess maybe some people 

485
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,360
will make those arguments, but 
it didn't seem like that was the

486
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,440
case, and it doesn't seem like 
we've really accomplished 

487
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,160
anything. 
No, they they kicked a hornet's 

488
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:49,840
nest. 
That's what they. 

489
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,080
Just a lot of death, you know, 
we just, we've participated 

490
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,880
really directly participated, 
you and I, you know, we've put 

491
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:01,040
money into this machine in death
and destruction, you know. 

492
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,280
And so, yeah, I think it's OK to
be a little bumped out, but also

493
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:06,520
you got to try to find the good 
stuff. 

494
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,960
And the trance thing, I mean, 
really, that is like, I would 

495
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,960
say the major thing, like the 
culture war woke stuff was just 

496
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,040
unbelievable. 
It's scary how far we can get. 

497
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,400
Yeah, man, how quick. 
Yes, yes. 

498
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,280
And then before that the COVID 
stuff. 

499
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:24,600
Oh. 
Yeah. 

500
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,200
Bro so so there's a lot of good 
too. 

501
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:32,440
But yeah, I'd rather not us kill
anybody unless we really have 

502
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,560
to, you know? 
Yeah, that would be great. 

503
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:37,760
I don't think that's like a left
wing idea. 

504
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,200
I think that's a Christian idea,
so. 

505
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,280
For real and and all 
denominators there we. 

506
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:46,360
Go No. 
No one. 

507
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,640
We've alienated half your 
audience, probably. 

508
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,880
I'm sorry. 
They're OK. 

509
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,400
They're OK If they don't like 
it, they they can join the other

510
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,760
70% that seem to have dropped 
off since I said I love Charlie 

511
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,600
Kirk, you know? 
So. 

512
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,480
Oh, really? 
Yeah, man. 

513
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,360
Oh yeah, surprises. 
That surprises me A. 

514
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,040
Lot it surprises me too and 
maybe that wasn't it. 

515
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,920
Maybe that wasn't the nail that 
you know, but I. 

516
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,040
I guess I didn't catch that 
earlier when you were explaining

517
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,680
the Charlie Kirk letters and say
I didn't pick up on that. 

518
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,560
You think it was because you 
like Charlie Kirk, that you like

519
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:20,720
I would. 
I would think it'd be the 

520
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,000
opposite. 
You know, he was kind of like 

521
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,480
the darling of that. 
Yeah, I, I would think so too, 

522
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:32,200
but I can't understand unless, 
unless it is like, and I, I view

523
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,600
everything spiritually, you 
know, unless it's God himself 

524
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,920
saying, OK, you've, you've made 
this show for me. 

525
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,000
You dedicated it to me. 
It's ran its course. 

526
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,640
You've reached who I wanted you 
to reach. 

527
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,920
And now we're closing that door.
You know, unless that is 

528
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,320
happening then I I have no other
explanation as to why it's 

529
00:30:52,320 --> 00:31:01,960
literally dropped like 70%. 
Yeah, I mean, we, you could, you

530
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,760
could misuse this argument. 
I think it's possible to misuse 

531
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,760
the argument I'm about to make. 
But also, you know, we're told 

532
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:14,440
that the truth is going to be 
unpopular, you know, so maybe 

533
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,240
it's just a sign that hearts are
changing. 

534
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,400
Maybe it's just a temporary 
thing, you know, who knows? 

535
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,760
That's my hope. 
So, you know, there's that. 

536
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,480
I think it's one of like the 
early Catholic Church fathers, 

537
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:33,080
but basically says, I, I got to 
stop bringing them quotes that I

538
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:34,680
don't actually know. 
But it's something along the 

539
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,040
lines of like, we need to do 
this even if reduced, we're 

540
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,640
reduced to just 12 again, you 
know, yes. 

541
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,160
And it's just this idea that you
just really can't compromise. 

542
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,560
That's it, that's it. 
You just got to stand man. 

543
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:52,960
And you know, they, you know, 
Jesus said it's not going to be 

544
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,360
pretty for, for people who 
follow him. 

545
00:31:55,360 --> 00:32:00,080
So yeah, if this is my 
persecution, then OK, you know, 

546
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,200
it's not that bad. 
I mean, we've had it pretty 

547
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,040
good. 
I became a Christian when it was

548
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,640
popular to become a Christian, 
you know, like five years ago 

549
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,560
there we had a few years ago. 
I feel like we had a big revival

550
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:10,920
kind of. 
Oh. 

551
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,240
For sure. 
And so I've, I've known 0 

552
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,360
persecution as a Christian, so I
probably shouldn't complain, but

553
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,840
I knew some persecution as a 
free thinker when I got fired 

554
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:28,960
for not getting vaccinated. 
But yeah, I think, I think, 

555
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,040
yeah, doing the right thing is 
not always popular. 

556
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,120
And I'm not trying to say that 
my ideas are right. 

557
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,560
I'm open minded if someone wants
to explain it to me. 

558
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:40,680
But I haven't been convinced 
that I need to pledge allegiance

559
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:45,280
to any particular nation, right?
Particularly a foreign nation, 

560
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,440
you know, right. 
So right. 

561
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,280
Happy to have allies and 
friends, right. 

562
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,240
But absolutely. 
But you know, there's limits. 

563
00:32:53,840 --> 00:33:00,280
Yeah, Yep, perfectly said bro. 
So talk to me about Shroud Peel.

564
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:06,440
Tell me yeah yeah, I totally 
took us off in like a far. 

565
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,760
I don't know, I'm afraid to say 
left or right. 

566
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,280
I'm a far off tangent. 
So it's. 

567
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:13,760
Relevant, man. 
It's relevant because it's 

568
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:14,600
controversial. 
You. 

569
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:16,880
Know it is. 
It is, bro. 

570
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,000
Yeah, but yeah, explain this all
to me, man. 

571
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,920
Like what? 
What inspired you to do the 

572
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,320
book? 
What, what you're, what you have

573
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,200
uncovered and found and I know 
you and I have discussed it 

574
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,400
previously, but like I was 
saying, I've got a new batch of 

575
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:40,600
listeners. 
I got different listeners and I 

576
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,720
I think it would be great to 
just go over all of it. 

577
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:45,720
Yeah, sure. 
Let's do it. 

578
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,440
Yeah. 
So folks, folks who aren't 

579
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:54,160
aware, you know, there is a, a 
cloth with the image of the 

580
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:59,480
front of a man in the back of a 
man in embedded in the cloth, 

581
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:06,760
right. 
And so in 1898, it was believed 

582
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:12,840
to probably be an image of Jesus
Christ that may be transferred 

583
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:17,520
to the cloth in those three days
that he was in the tomb, perhaps

584
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,760
maybe through perspiration or, 
or something. 

585
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:26,239
And and so in 1898, they took a 
picture of it and there was a 

586
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,960
guy named Sekondo Pia. 
It's very early photography. 

587
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:36,280
And someone was texting me, 
sorry, very early photography. 

588
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,320
And you know, back then you had 
to develop the photo, right? 

589
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:41,840
It did. 
It wasn't like a Polaroid or 

590
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,120
like a Cam, you know, iPhone. 
You had to develop the photo and

591
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,159
the first thing you saw was a 
negative image. 

592
00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:49,400
All right, can I share my screen
on here? 

593
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,320
Is that possible? 
Yeah, let me make sure I knew 

594
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,400
how to do that. 
I think maybe I do it. 

595
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,400
Let me do. 
Let's see. 

596
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,320
OK, yeah, yeah, go for it and 
see what happens. 

597
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:08,480
I don't know if it will happen 
'cause this is in my like my. 

598
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:10,280
Should be right beside the leave
button. 

599
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:13,760
Yeah. 
Can you see this? 

600
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:16,280
There it is. 
Yep. 

601
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,120
I've got you see the the face. 
Yes. 

602
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,520
OK, so on the left is what the 
shroud actually looks like in 

603
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,080
person. 
This is just the face. 

604
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,840
Obviously it's the whole front 
of I, you know, I, I get try to 

605
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,120
get in the habit of saying the 
man in the shroud versus Jesus 

606
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:34,640
because I mean, I don't know for
sure. 

607
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:40,000
I have a pretty confident that 
this is an image of Jesus. 

608
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,600
But since I don't know for sure,
I'm trying to approach it 

609
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,480
scientifically, I'll just say 
the man in the shroud, Well, the

610
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,840
image on the left is what it 
actually looks like in person. 

611
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,600
The image on the right is what 
the photo negative looks like. 

612
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:58,200
And So what people, I think you 
know, fail to comprehend is that

613
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,600
if this were a man made object, 
which is the skeptical claim, 

614
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:08,640
the artist would have to paint 
the image on the left knowing 

615
00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:13,760
that 500 years later, a 
technology would be invented 

616
00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:18,880
that would make it look like the
image on the right, right. 

617
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,600
And so because no, no one would 
have ever seen that image on the

618
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,600
right back then when it was 
created because again, you could

619
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,520
this could only be done with a 
camera in negative. 

620
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,840
And so, yeah, the claim is that 
that this was made by a medieval

621
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,520
artist. 
Here's the full shroud right 

622
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,320
here. 
And so you can see the bottom 

623
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,120
half of the screen. 
This is the front and then this 

624
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,240
is the back and it would have 
been folded around his head 

625
00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:44,880
right here. 
So it's just this long cloth. 

626
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,080
And then all the other markings 
are fold Marks and stuff. 

627
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:54,000
It's this is either 2000 years 
old if it's real or 700 years 

628
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,920
old if it's fake. 
And you can see evidence of 

629
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,360
lashing, of scourging. 
You can see evidence of the 

630
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:06,560
crown of thorns inserted and not
you can you can see here, these 

631
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,800
are this white, the white marks.
It would be blood, blood stains.

632
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,440
And. 
And yeah, you can see evidence 

633
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,840
of piercing at his wrist right 
there. 

634
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,000
It's kind of hard to see, but 
there you go. 

635
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,680
And so you can see the scourge 
marks all over. 

636
00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:31,480
And so, yeah, so, So really 
after this photo was taken in 

637
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,640
1898, here, let me stop sharing 
my screen here. 

638
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,720
The Catholic Church and others 
believers went from thinking 

639
00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:43,360
maybe this is real to, oh, this 
is, this is probably real. 

640
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,880
You know, this is probably the 
actual image of, of Jesus 

641
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:54,600
Christ. 
And so anyway, so it wasn't 

642
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,480
until 1989 that a study was 
done. 

643
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,640
You know, some, some 
universities got together in the

644
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,480
Turing Cathedral in Italy. 
They bring out this casket that 

645
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,760
contains the shroud, and 
scientists from Oxford, the 

646
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:14,320
University of Arizona in Zurich,
cut a corner off the cloth. 

647
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,960
So not an imaged area, but a 
corner, and they split it into a

648
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,000
bunch of pieces. 
They send it off to three 

649
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,040
separate labs and they carbon 
date it. 

650
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:29,080
And so the results came back and
they combined the three 

651
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,360
measurements they got to get an 
average age of about 700 years 

652
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:38,480
old. 1325 is sort of the middle 
state, and so for most of my 

653
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,560
life it's just been assumed that
this is fake. 

654
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,080
Most Christians, as far as I 
know, even most Catholics, kind 

655
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,120
of think like it's just a nice 
relic that somebody made, 

656
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:54,400
despite how amazing it is and us
not understanding how it was 

657
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,320
made, how it could be made by a 
medieval artist. 

658
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,640
You know, some people like to 
say Leonardo da Vinci made it, 

659
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,400
but it predates him by almost 2 
centuries. 

660
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,800
Some people said that some 
people in the medieval times had

661
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,080
something akin to camera 
technology. 

662
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:18,000
It's called camera obscura. 
It's really just bizarre. 

663
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,520
It, it doesn't make any sense. 
I I could go into there are 

664
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,640
people who really believe in it,
so I'll just briefly mention 

665
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:25,800
what it was. 
They basically take this massive

666
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:31,440
quartz lens and they can make a 
statue, but even that probably 

667
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,800
wouldn't be adequate. 
So they could hang a corpse 

668
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:39,560
potentially in the sun and 
places quartz lens on a sealed 

669
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:45,160
building with a with the cloth 
inside and a bucket of urine 

670
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,440
because the ammonia would 
evaporate and they could paint 

671
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:52,280
the cloth with silver. 
I forget that this particular 

672
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,240
chemical, but it's some type of 
silver. 

673
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,320
Silver nitrate, probably. 
Yeah, silver nitrate, I think, 

674
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,200
And it would develop over time 
and then the the ammonia salts 

675
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,200
would bind to it and fix as it 
evaporated to fix the image. 

676
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,800
But they've done stuff this way.
I mean, there's no evidence that

677
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,320
was possible back then, but 
they've even tried to recreate 

678
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,960
it and it just doesn't work. 
It doesn't come out correctly. 

679
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:18,120
It looks like a photo, not a 
photo negative anyway. 

680
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,000
So. 
So despite having no 

681
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,440
explanation. 
People have thought it was it 

682
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:29,200
was fake. 
You know what's up, buddy? 

683
00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:33,760
I'm sorry, everybody, myself. 
You're good. 

684
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,360
You're good, man. 
My wife had a last minute change

685
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:41,360
of plans so he's relegated to 
the iPad. 

686
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:46,680
But anyway, so this, so, so 
wasn't until I think 2017 that 

687
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,320
they started digging into this 
paper. 

688
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:54,600
And oddly, you know, the paper 
is published in Nature. 

689
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,360
So generally if something's 
published in nature, there's 

690
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,640
certain requirements. 
You're supposed to be willing to

691
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,120
share the data, you're supposed 
to be willing to share the 

692
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,520
methods. 
And they didn't, you know, the, 

693
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:07,960
the universities involved 
wouldn't share that information.

694
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:12,400
It wasn't until this guy named 
Tristan Casa Bianca, he was a 

695
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,240
French researcher. 
He submitted a basically the 

696
00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:17,960
equivalent of a FOIA. 
You know how we have FOIA here? 

697
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,400
So it's a Freedom of Information
request to the British Museum. 

698
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,800
And they were, they released 
most of the documents. 

699
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,880
He ended up having to fight a 
little bit harder to get 

700
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,120
everything, but he got it. 
And So what they discovered, 

701
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,720
there's another guy called 
Marco, I think his last name is 

702
00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:37,920
Rihani, I forget, but he was 
involved too. 

703
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:44,400
And what they discovered is that
the labs had control samples. 

704
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:49,360
So a control sample is a cloth 
that you know how old it is and 

705
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,520
they proved that their method 
works by dating that cloth. 

706
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,360
So they had a 2000 year old 
Egyptian linen that they knew 

707
00:41:55,360 --> 00:42:00,280
was 2000 years old because it 
was found in the tomb of this so

708
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,440
and so who died? 
They knew his exact date of 

709
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,360
death because it was written 
down or something. 

710
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,040
And so they dated it and they 
got 2000 years old. 

711
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,160
So proof that the carbon dating 
worked, right? 

712
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:16,000
And all three labs dated a set 
of controls and they all got the

713
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,000
right answer. 
So it shows that they're all 

714
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,280
locked in. 
You know, the, the method is 

715
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,360
consistent across the three 
labs. 

716
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,720
When the three labs dated the 
shroud, they all got wildly 

717
00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:30,240
different dates, significantly 
different in the statistical 

718
00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:32,280
sense of the word, significantly
different. 

719
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,560
And so they, they just averaged 
them and reported that age, 

720
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,600
which isn't appropriate number 
one, but #2 why would an 

721
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,960
accurate method yield different 
results? 

722
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,400
Cross contamination it. 
Has to be there's no other 

723
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,520
explanation and no one even did 
not like there's no sense 

724
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,360
denying that because that's the 
obvious cause is contamination. 

725
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,480
And so there's been some reports
that like as much as 70% of the 

726
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,200
sample is, you know, non 
original. 

727
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,880
And there's debate about 
whether, you know, it was 

728
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:13,880
repaired after a fire or if it's
just random contamination. 

729
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:18,960
It's travelled Europe and, you 
know, for 2000 years potentially

730
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,760
or even 700 years, who knows if 
it isn't real. 

731
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,080
And so we just, we just, the 
date was complete garbage. 

732
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,320
The carbon date was really not 
accurate. 

733
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,120
And it, in my opinion, should be
retracted. 

734
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,400
But I'm not an archaeologist, so
it doesn't matter what I think. 

735
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:39,400
What's up, buddy? 
Hey buddy, take my phone. 

736
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:42,920
We'll see. 
We'll see how this goes anyway. 

737
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:49,400
Anyway, hey buddy, give me one 
minute, OK? 

738
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:58,000
I love his kid so much, but he 
he's not. 

739
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,720
He does not buy the hay. 
I'm doing a call explanation 

740
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,640
anyway, so I think the date's 
wrong. 

741
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,880
Or at the very least, we just 
shouldn't place much weight on 

742
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:14,120
it. 
And really, there's been no 

743
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,560
counter argument. 
There's been no explanation. 

744
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,400
There really is no pushback 
other than, yeah, maybe the 

745
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:25,160
date's a little off, but this is
not a scientific answer, right? 

746
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:26,680
Like. 
Not at all. 

747
00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:29,000
You can't. 
This has been the basis of 

748
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,640
discrediting the Shroud for 40 
years. 

749
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:33,480
So. 
So I'll take a break there. 

750
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,680
Do you have any thoughts on 
that? 

751
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:42,200
Yeah, it seems like that's the 
least scientific result it could

752
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:49,720
have possibly had, man. 
Like do we know that the same 

753
00:44:49,720 --> 00:44:51,880
material was given to all three 
places? 

754
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,360
You know the sample was cut? 
Yeah, we know. 

755
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,560
Oh, this is another interesting 
aspect actually. 

756
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:02,080
So we know that it was about. 
It was, you know, it was a few 

757
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:03,720
inches long. 
I forget the exact length of 

758
00:45:03,720 --> 00:45:06,600
this corner of the cloth that 
they cut off the corner of the 

759
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,960
shroud, which, you know, quick 
tangent. 

760
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,560
That's the most likely spot that
would need a repair after the 

761
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,200
fire, right? 
Would be the edges. 

762
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,520
And there was a fire, right? 
Yeah, I was in. 

763
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:21,200
There's in a couple fires, one 
in the, you know, the 16th 

764
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:26,080
century, which there's, you 
know, I get a lot of pushback 

765
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:27,800
for this. 
There's at least some evidence 

766
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,400
that they did repair it after 
that fire. 

767
00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:35,480
I mean, and when I say there's 
some evidence, you know, the 

768
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,880
samples did contain what they 
found, cotton threads. 

769
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,280
It's a linen cloth, so it should
only have flax. 

770
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:43,960
But even, you know, textile 
experts disagree. 

771
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,000
So what every single argument, 
there's two sides. 

772
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:52,360
But but the real damning thing, 
in my opinion, is that the 

773
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:57,720
Shroud got younger as he moved 
across the sample, you know, So,

774
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:00,600
so we know, you know, they took 
many tests. 

775
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,120
Each lab did the test many times
from different parts of this 

776
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:07,160
little tiny cloth. 
And you can map them and it, 

777
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,560
it's a linear effect as you move
from left to right, which is 

778
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,480
sort of proof that, you know, 
there's probably a repair over 

779
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:15,600
here. 
And as you move closer to the 

780
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,680
repair, it gets younger. 
And and so, yeah, it's just, 

781
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:23,200
it's garbage. 
And really, you know, these 

782
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,280
scientists, they're, they're, 
they're ideologically committed.

783
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,720
Just think, think about it. 
You know, I'm a Christian. 

784
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:35,560
If the shroud was proven to be 
fake, Oh well, you know, like I 

785
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,520
don't have my faith wrapped up 
in this cloth, right? 

786
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,960
I think it's incredible if it's 
true, but it's, I'm not like my 

787
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,720
belief isn't dependent on it, 
right? 

788
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,040
Most people didn't even consider
it could be real until a couple 

789
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,600
years ago. 
So, but if you're an atheist, 

790
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,800
this cannot be true, right? 
This, this, this means you're 

791
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:01,280
100% wrong and possibly damned 
right. 

792
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:06,720
So like the, the, the, what's 
the word I'm looking for? 

793
00:47:06,720 --> 00:47:09,920
Like the consequence of this is 
huge for them. 

794
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,960
The weight is huge. 
So like, there's nothing you 

795
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:17,240
won't say or be willing to 
believe to justify your position

796
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,120
and so on. 
On this issue, I do think it's 

797
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,360
the skeptics that are acting 
much more religious. 

798
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,320
On this particular particular, 
yeah, they're, they're measuring

799
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,760
it against their pride. 
Yeah. 

800
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,560
I mean like everything they have
has to be against this. 

801
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,280
Yeah, exactly, Exactly. 
So. 

802
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,760
And I mean, I don't know, I just
encourage people to take a look 

803
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:43,960
at it in negative versus 
positive and just ask yourself 

804
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,000
like, could this could, does it 
even make sense that someone 

805
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,840
could have painted this not 
knowing what it would look like 

806
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:52,920
in negative? 
I mean, it looks like an image 

807
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,840
in negative and, and then also 
like there's no evidence that it

808
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,000
is painted. 
You know, they, they've studied 

809
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:02,000
this up close and all these 
different microscope techniques 

810
00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:06,040
and floor and floor X-ray 
fluorescence and UV fluorescence

811
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:10,400
and #1 it's not scorched. 
So it's not like they heated 

812
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,880
something like a statue up to a 
really high temperature and 

813
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,600
draped a cloth over. 
It's not scorched because burns 

814
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,000
and scorch marks fluoresce under
UV light. 

815
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:22,440
Now the blood stains do 
fluoresce. 

816
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:24,960
So it's, which is what you would
expect, you know, if you watch 

817
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,440
CSI Miami. 
So it does seem like it they are

818
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:32,960
really blood stains and there's 
no, there's no paint now that 

819
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,160
they have found and this they 
really like to harp on this. 

820
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:40,720
They have found, like little 
specks of pigment, red and blue 

821
00:48:40,720 --> 00:48:45,280
and green, but it's uniform. 
Like, it's not, It's not. 

822
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,360
It's not like the pigments are 
in the imaged areas but not in 

823
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,680
the non imaged areas. 
It's just sort of all over. 

824
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:54,600
And it's because this thing has 
been carted around the Middle 

825
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:58,200
East and Europe for hundreds of 
years and people have pressed 

826
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:01,360
paintings up against it. 
It almost kind of developed like

827
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,280
a cult like following in the 
1600s. 

828
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:07,320
Yeah. 
And people would just like, yes,

829
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:09,840
they would just press paintings 
up against it and other 

830
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:13,160
tapestries, other clothes and. 
If they could touch it, I would 

831
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,600
imagine people cry on it and 
everything, you know what I 

832
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:17,400
mean? 
Absolutely, Yeah, absolutely. 

833
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,760
And so, and so that's evidence 
of nothing, you know, like 

834
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,800
finding little specks of stuff. 
They they found DNA from sea 

835
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:26,320
worms on it. 
Like that doesn't mean it was 

836
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:29,840
made by a mermaid, you know, it 
just means it's been exposed to 

837
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:35,680
the elements, you know, And so. 
So that's kind of a problem. 

838
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:40,880
And, and anyway, so there's one 
guy in Italy who did his name's 

839
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:46,120
Luigi Garlic, Garlic Shelley, 
who came up with this kind of 

840
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:53,280
interesting idea where he made a
mask of a person and then and 

841
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:58,800
then draped a cloth over it and 
rubbed pigment with a little 

842
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,960
like slightly acidic pigment 
over the top of it. 

843
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:04,920
Kind of like you do a rubbing. 
Like I remember going to 

844
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,640
Washington, DC as a kid and you 
could like take a crayon and rub

845
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:11,360
names like the memorial and 
stuff and kind of like that. 

846
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:17,720
And then did the same thing for 
a real human's body and put it 

847
00:50:17,720 --> 00:50:21,120
in like a wash, a dryer. 
It, it just doesn't hold up. 

848
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:26,480
I mean, listen it, if you have 
the shroud as a guide, I'm not 

849
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:28,800
shocked that people can sort of 
make something that sort of 

850
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:32,160
approximates it, but it's just 
not it's just not the same. 

851
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,680
And even he admits it doesn't 
hold the same 3D depth in 

852
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:38,400
coding. 
And this is another point is 

853
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:42,360
that Los Alamos Labs studied 
this, you know, like the famous 

854
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:54,440
Los Alamos labs in New Mexico. 
And, and they put this, it's 

855
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:56,320
actually a really kind of 
ingenious idea. 

856
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:58,840
They took this thing, it's 
called the VPA image analyzer. 

857
00:50:59,960 --> 00:51:03,720
And they assigned they, they, 
they like, turn it into pixels, 

858
00:51:03,720 --> 00:51:05,160
like you can so picture little 
dots. 

859
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:12,040
And they assigned a vertical 
relief to each, each color that 

860
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,640
could be present in the shroud, 
kind of the way MRI works. 

861
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:18,360
And, and it renders it 3 
dimensional. 

862
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:24,440
This this was a technique used 
to study X-ray images and try to

863
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:28,000
turn X-ray images 3D. 
And it it worked on the shroud 

864
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,040
and it doesn't work on 
paintings, It doesn't work on 

865
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:31,480
photos. 
It worked on the shroud. 

866
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,040
Yeah. 
So it's as if the body in the 

867
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:38,120
shroud was the light source. 
This is like the key. 

868
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:41,880
This is the key piece. 
It's not perspiration. 

869
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,840
It's not anything like a image 
transfer. 

870
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,840
It is as if the body was an 
energy source for a brief moment

871
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:52,640
of time. 
Like the body itself, cast the 

872
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:54,840
negative. 
Yeah, exactly. 

873
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,720
And like kind of not, not 
burned, but sort of radiated and

874
00:51:58,720 --> 00:52:02,840
changed the physical properties 
of the the cellulose and the 

875
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:06,880
fiber so that it aged 
differently over time. 

876
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,280
And so this we're seeing sort of
like the like the fossil of an 

877
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,680
event, like an electromagnetic 
event. 

878
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:15,840
And as a Christian, like what 
could that event be? 

879
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,520
You know, obviously we know 
it's, it's a resurrection. 

880
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:22,600
Yeah, the moment of resurrection
and there's, it's impossible to 

881
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:24,840
see. 
It's that kind of stuff, dude. 

882
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:29,960
It's impossible to replicate 
today with today's technology. 

883
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:34,840
It reminds me of like all these 
temples around the world that 

884
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:38,680
were built that we can't, you 
know, we can't build it the same

885
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:40,400
way we can't explain how they 
were built. 

886
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:45,040
But we will die before we admit 
that it's something, you know. 

887
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:48,400
Right, right. 
Well, you. 

888
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,800
It's right here. 
And if it's true, you're looking

889
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,120
at the face of Christ. 
Exactly. 

890
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,080
It really is amazing, really is 
amazing. 

891
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:00,400
And you know, that point about 
the temples is an interesting 

892
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:04,480
one because you know, it used to
be the popular thing used to be 

893
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:12,760
it's you know, it's man made and
you know it, it just is man 

894
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:16,080
made. 
And hey, Leonardo da Vincio was 

895
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:19,960
alive right around that time and
he could do anything, right so. 

896
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:23,320
Right, right. 
But slowly, like people begin to

897
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:25,560
acknowledge like that's not a 
good enough excuse. 

898
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:28,760
That's like that's that doesn't 
really answer the problem. 

899
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:33,640
And so people start to entertain
ideas like maybe it was created 

900
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:39,080
by some esoteric amazing force, 
but it wasn't the resurrection 

901
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:43,120
like it was, it was the Knights 
Templar or it was some ascended 

902
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:47,200
master or, you know, is, and 
it's just amazing the lengths 

903
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:49,840
people will go to avoid saying 
like, well, maybe it maybe it 

904
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:54,840
could be the resurrection, you 
know, And anyway, there is a 

905
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:58,760
historical side of this too, if 
you want to shift gears to that.

906
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:00,560
Yeah. 
Well, let me ask one question 

907
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:02,840
first before we go into the 
historical side. 

908
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:08,120
And this is a question that I 
think most people listening 

909
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:11,000
would want to know. 
Have they done DNA tests on the 

910
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,360
blood? 
No. 

911
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:19,960
So what DNA basically won't hold
up in that environment? 

912
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:24,160
They have they have done some 
sticky tape samples and the 

913
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:28,520
problem is like the DNA is just 
so degraded that they get crazy 

914
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:30,080
results. 
Like that's where the marine 

915
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:32,960
worm DNA comes from. 
It's like, but it's based on 

916
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:36,240
like adna fragment that's like 
10 base pairs long or something.

917
00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:40,160
So DNA just won't hold up. 
They have done some analysis 

918
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:43,400
where they find evidence that it
is real blood. 

919
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:47,200
You know that they found red 
blood cells and you know, there 

920
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:52,120
are claims that it has a lot of 
bilirubin and creatinine in it, 

921
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,240
which could be evidence of, you 
know, someone who what's 

922
00:54:55,240 --> 00:54:57,840
experiencing pretty dire 
situation, you know, like pretty

923
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,440
extreme stress and dehydration, 
which fits. 

924
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:05,760
There's some evidence that the 
spear wound released both blood 

925
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:07,960
and water, which fits the 
account. 

926
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:11,360
It's very consistent with the 
crucifixion. 

927
00:55:12,240 --> 00:55:15,560
So it looks like his ankle was 
probably dislocated, but no 

928
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,920
bones were broken. 
Which is still it, yeah. 

929
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:24,360
Exactly, and it looks like he 
probably did die quickly based 

930
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:27,400
on that. 
Exit it that that blood and 

931
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,840
water out of his the spear 
wound, which fits Pontius Pilate

932
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:36,360
being surprised how quickly he 
passed away and and 

933
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:40,160
interestingly, the nail holes 
are are in the wrist, which you 

934
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,680
know all if you look at medieval
paintings, all medieval 

935
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:44,360
paintings have the nails through
the palm. 

936
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:47,800
And so if this was made in 
medieval times, it's just kind 

937
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,520
of odd that they made it that 
way. 

938
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,480
So. 
So anyway, yeah, but no DNA, no 

939
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,320
DNA. 
There's a lot of pushing right 

940
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:01,880
now to do another carbon dating 
from a more central area that 

941
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:05,240
probably isn't repaired. 
But the problem is we don't 

942
00:56:05,240 --> 00:56:09,840
really know if that date is 
wrong because it was repaired or

943
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,280
just because the whole cloth is 
contaminated. 

944
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:15,480
So I don't know how I feel about
that because you'd hate to take 

945
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:20,400
a piece of Christ's image 
potentially and use it to 

946
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:25,640
disprove falsely, you know, that
this thing is not 2000 years 

947
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:27,080
old. 
So I, I don't know, I think, I 

948
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:30,280
think we just at this point, and
this is a, this is something 

949
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:34,200
Giulio Fonte said, he's like the
main researcher in Italy on the 

950
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:36,480
shroud. 
He said it's kind of like God 

951
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:40,960
himself, you know, like there's 
a lot of great evidence, but at 

952
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,640
some point you just kind of have
to believe, you know, it's sort 

953
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,480
of like the faith. 
And so as I think that's we're 

954
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:49,120
just going to have to be OK with
that now at least. 

955
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:53,600
Yeah, yeah, for sure. 
Wow. 

956
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:59,760
Yeah. 
So just because it will come up,

957
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:03,920
you know, skeptical people 
listening, the shroud kind of 

958
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:06,200
emerged on the scene in the 14th
century. 

959
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:12,760
OK, And This is why that carbon 
dating was so damning is because

960
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:15,280
the carbon date was in the 14th 
century. 

961
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:18,120
Right. 
And so I get it. 

962
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:20,560
I get, I get that. 
That's very persuasive. 

963
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:26,960
It's just that that carbon date 
#1 is not accurate and #2 

964
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:29,880
there's historical evidence 
placing the shroud deeper in 

965
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:31,280
history. 
Now it's debated. 

966
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:34,840
People argue, but have you heard
of the Manda Lion? 

967
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:41,560
No. 
It's, it's an icon. 

968
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:45,920
You know, there's all these this
Christian iconography like 

969
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:47,800
Christ the pentocrator and 
stuff. 

970
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:53,040
And so the Mandalion, it's this 
piece of cloth that had now we 

971
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:54,680
don't have any written 
descriptions of it, I don't 

972
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:58,800
believe, but it was, it's a 
cloth that had Jesus face on it.

973
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:04,680
Oh, is that when he that he 
where he cleaned his face? 

974
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:07,360
Well, so that is sort we didn't 
know. 

975
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:09,880
Like there is there is like some
contention because there's this 

976
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:14,400
thing called the Sudarium of 
Oviedo in Spain that they think 

977
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:18,000
was his face cloth. 
What they think the man to lion 

978
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:20,320
was. 
Because if you look at letters 

979
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:24,080
exchanged about the Shroud of 
Constantinople, which came to 

980
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:30,560
Constantinople in the 10th 
century, they described it being

981
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:35,800
folded up so that only the face 
was visible and they described 

982
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:39,240
it as a faint impression of the 
Lord in a cloth. 

983
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:42,680
They thought it was like maybe 
blood or perspiration, 

984
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:45,680
perspiration stains. 
No one understood the idea of, 

985
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:49,000
you know, like UV light or 
radiation or electricity back 

986
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:50,760
then, right? 
So they thought it was like a 

987
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:55,000
stain. 
And it's there's reasonable 

988
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:57,880
evidence that that was the 
shroud of turn. 

989
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:04,200
You know, there's a letter about
during the 4th Crusade when we 

990
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:08,280
turned on Constantinople, I say 
we like, like I, you know, was 

991
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:11,440
part of the French and English 
or whoever it was Crusade. 

992
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:18,480
But but they go into Greece, 
they, they fight a war and 

993
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:20,920
Constantinople doesn't pay or 
something. 

994
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:23,760
And so they sack the city of 
Constantinople. 

995
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:28,640
And it's this horrible, like 
horrible event in Christian 

996
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:32,160
history. 
And it's why, you know, probably

997
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:36,040
a big reason why, you know, 
Constantinople is a, is a 

998
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:38,680
Islamic town. 
You know that a lot of these 

999
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:42,520
churches are, are mosques now 
is, you know, that was just a 

1000
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:44,960
devastating blow to, to, to 
them. 

1001
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:50,680
And there's a letter that says 
the these invaders basically 

1002
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:54,320
like raped our women on the 
altars and stole the image of 

1003
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:58,240
the Lord and took it to Greece 
basically. 

1004
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:05,600
Now the guy who emerges with the
shroud in the 14th century, it 

1005
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:09,400
emerges when he gets back from 
Greece, when he gets back from 

1006
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:12,240
the crusade. 
And by all accounts, he was this

1007
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:14,760
honorable man. 
He saved his king. 

1008
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:22,000
He was in a English war camp. 
He prayed to God and was then 

1009
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:25,800
was set free. 
And so he comes back to leery 

1010
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:30,600
France and and builds a 
cathedral that's kind of like a 

1011
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:34,520
sign of devotion to God. 
And he puts it on display there.

1012
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:38,920
And so that's when we first know
for sure, without a doubt, that 

1013
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:42,760
what we call the Shroud of Turin
today pops into history. 

1014
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:47,840
But I mean, chances are really 
good that he got it in Athens. 

1015
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:51,280
But she just returned from who 
would have gotten it from 

1016
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:56,720
Constantinople, who would have 
gotten it from Edessa when it 

1017
01:00:56,720 --> 01:00:59,760
was called the Shroud of Edessa.
And the Shroud of Edessa goes 

1018
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:05,520
all the way back to King Abgar, 
who claims to have gotten it 

1019
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:12,000
from the Apostles. 
And so it's sounds weird of my 

1020
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:15,480
Internet, sorry. 
But so it's it's stands to 

1021
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:17,800
reason that that it goes all the
way back. 

1022
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,800
Man, so, so there there is a 
historical connection that you 

1023
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:29,960
can, you know, plausibly trace 
this back to the apostles. 

1024
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:33,640
Yeah, I think so. 
I mean, from Edessa to the 

1025
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:36,000
Apostles, it gets a little 
shady, obviously. 

1026
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:38,960
Totally makes sense. 
It is interesting though, that 

1027
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:42,960
like the Christ the Pentocrator 
image kind of emerges around 

1028
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:46,600
that same time. 
And if you do an overlay of that

1029
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:48,560
icon with the shroud, it's 
amazing. 

1030
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:50,160
Let me see. 
Let me see if I can find it. 

1031
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:56,880
Christ the Pantocrator. 
How's this this camera's 

1032
01:01:56,880 --> 01:02:01,440
lagging. 
Radio is my voice coming through

1033
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:04,080
all right, at least. 
Yeah, yeah, your voice sounds 

1034
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:06,720
fond. 
It's just, I don't know if it's 

1035
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:11,680
a lag and it could be something 
on my side of the connection. 

1036
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:17,200
Dude, last night at, well, 
today, I guess 1:30 this 

1037
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:21,360
morning, you know, middle of the
night I was out on my patio, 70°

1038
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:22,680
weather. 
I was playing around with a 

1039
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:27,200
little camp stove. 
Then this afternoon at 3:00, I 

1040
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:31,840
look outside and it's snowing 
like crazy and we've got like 2 

1041
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:34,000
inches of snow. 
Big, heavy, wet snow. 

1042
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:37,800
And it's probably going to 
interrupt the Internet, at 

1043
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:42,000
least. 
Oh really? 

1044
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:43,200
Do you have Starlink or 
something? 

1045
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:44,920
What's that about? 
That's kind of weird. 

1046
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:51,040
Well I I order Starlink and it's
sitting in the box in the living

1047
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:55,320
room. 
Oh OK OK I wasn't sure if the 

1048
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:57,200
snow is messing with starlink or
something. 

1049
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:04,560
No, it's, I don't know, but the 
audio's fine and you know, 

1050
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:07,280
video, it'll be OK. 
You're a good looking man. 

1051
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:09,080
It's OK if it freezes on your 
face there. 

1052
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:14,680
Can you see this? 
All right, I'll do some images. 

1053
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:19,000
There they are. 
Yes, looks good now. 

1054
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:23,120
So awesome. 
So I mean, look at this image on

1055
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:27,560
the left. 
It's pretty amazing. 

1056
01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:31,280
I mean the head shape. 
It really is the. 

1057
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:38,400
Mouth, the lips. 
So I mean, I would argue that 

1058
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:41,440
the person who made this icon 
had probably seen the shroud, 

1059
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:47,600
right? 
And the fact that 

1060
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:52,520
Chrysipintocrator and the shroud
kind of emerge around the same 

1061
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:56,080
time back in the 6th century, I 
believe I've I'd forget someone 

1062
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:59,560
can look up exactly, but it 
seems pretty reasonable that it 

1063
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:02,520
worked that way. 
Now, some people like to make 

1064
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:05,600
the opposite argument that the 
person who made the shroud at 

1065
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:08,840
seeing Christ at the talkator. 
And we don't know for sure, to 

1066
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:16,320
be fully honest, but it I mean 
that we have a, as far as 

1067
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:20,520
historical records go, we have a
pretty good historical record 

1068
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:24,960
that takes us all the way back 
for sure to the 5th century, 

1069
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:28,720
maybe to the 1st century. 
If it was anything else other 

1070
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:31,200
than Jesus, we would totally 
accept it. 

1071
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:40,320
Yes, you know. 
Yeah, if it was the shroud of 

1072
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:44,680
some pharaoh, it would be a 
lock, you know what I mean? 

1073
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:47,280
There would be no, no question, 
no argument. 

1074
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:52,080
It would just be, well, it has 
to be this way, and I wish 

1075
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:55,480
people would put as much effort 
into proving it as they are 

1076
01:04:55,480 --> 01:05:00,240
disproving it. 
It's a sign of something though,

1077
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:03,720
you know, the fact that like 
people just 'cause you know, I, 

1078
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:06,640
I was an atheist. 
So like, I did this, you know, I

1079
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:10,200
can't, I really pushed back 
specifically on Jesus. 

1080
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:14,720
And it's something you kind of 
have to ask yourself why, Like I

1081
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:16,560
didn't know anything about 
Jesus, really. 

1082
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:20,680
So the fact that I'm this 
animated, you know, I attribute 

1083
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:25,440
it to just like maybe issues I 
had with like institutions and 

1084
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:28,000
with the church. 
But I mean, really, I read the 

1085
01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:31,520
gospel and I'm like, I can't be 
against this. 

1086
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:36,760
Like there's nothing in here 
that I should be against. 

1087
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:41,360
So like the fact that I'm acting
like I'm against it, like this 

1088
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:45,760
is this is a sign of something, 
you know, not a good sign. 

1089
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:47,480
Like it's, it's a sign that is 
real. 

1090
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:50,120
And there's some reason like, 
why am I resisting this? 

1091
01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:53,560
And so I think the same thing 
goes on with the Shroud, because

1092
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:56,200
it would be physical evidence of
the resurrection. 

1093
01:05:57,600 --> 01:06:01,640
And so people, just people, just
certain subset of people just 

1094
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:05,200
can't believe it, you know? 
Yeah, so. 

1095
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:09,640
Yeah. 
Like for me, you know, just off 

1096
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:13,280
of what you've told me 
historically and off the test 

1097
01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:18,440
that they've ran and looking at 
the image through a camera 

1098
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:22,960
through the negative, you know, 
I don't need anything else. 

1099
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:28,800
You know, like I'm convinced and
maybe I'm gullible, you know, 

1100
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:33,120
but I what more do you need? 
No, you're not. 

1101
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:36,720
You're not, you know. 
The claim against you would be 

1102
01:06:36,720 --> 01:06:39,760
like, hey, extraordinary claims 
demand extraordinary evidence. 

1103
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:43,080
OK, fine, but the evidence is on
your side. 

1104
01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:47,760
It is on our side, you know, So 
I guess it's OK if some people 

1105
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:48,920
don't want to believe, that's 
fine. 

1106
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:51,880
But people try to make you feel 
stupid. 

1107
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:54,600
You know, you go on these online
forums and it's like, oh, what a

1108
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:56,680
what an idiot, what a nut job, 
you know? 

1109
01:06:57,080 --> 01:07:00,000
No, the, the, the scientific 
evidence is on our side. 

1110
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:05,280
Now, is it definitive? 
I guess not, but it's way better

1111
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:09,400
than we should reasonably, 
reasonably hope for for a 2000 

1112
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:14,320
year old cloth, you know and so 
right. 

1113
01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:19,040
Now there's no other shrouds 
from crucifixions, I would 

1114
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:21,480
imagine, right? 
Because this was, it was not a 

1115
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:27,520
common, it wasn't common 
practice for the Jewish people 

1116
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:30,320
to be crucified. 
It was more of a Roman thing, 

1117
01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:32,320
right? 
Is that am I way off on that? 

1118
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:34,080
No, you're you're totally 
correct. 

1119
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:37,640
OK. 
Yeah, you're totally correct. 

1120
01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:39,760
There's nothing, there's nothing
like it. 

1121
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:43,280
I mean, there's, there's like 
alleged burial clothes, but 

1122
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:45,960
there's, they don't have an 
image in them, you know, and 

1123
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:48,920
there, there are hoaxes, you 
know, there, there are medieval 

1124
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:50,960
hoaxes for sure. 
But it's they're just in a 

1125
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:54,040
completely different category. 
You know, number one, they have 

1126
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:56,240
paint. 
They have paint on them, you 

1127
01:07:56,280 --> 01:07:58,080
know, so, so. 
Right. 

1128
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:02,600
But #2 they're not a negative. 
They don't have 3D encoding. 

1129
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:07,480
They, they don't have like rich 
detail of the crucifixion. 

1130
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:12,680
So yeah, it's, it's, I think, I 
think Christians should feel 

1131
01:08:12,680 --> 01:08:16,240
very good or comfortable about 
this. 

1132
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:20,160
You know, I don't, I don't see a
reason to, to feel embarrassed 

1133
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:26,319
about this at all. 
I think, I think the, the forces

1134
01:08:26,319 --> 01:08:29,520
against this are trying to make 
it sound ridiculous. 

1135
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:32,760
So you don't, you don't like, 
use your one of your best pieces

1136
01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:36,920
of evidence, you know, So, yeah,
I, I've done a lot of pushback 

1137
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:43,200
from Christians too, though. 
You know, John Calvin said that 

1138
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:47,080
if you believe the shroud is 
real, then you believe John is a

1139
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:52,200
liar. 
And I, I read John. 

1140
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:55,800
I read the scene at the tomb. 
I don't get it. 

1141
01:08:56,160 --> 01:08:58,240
I don't, I don't understand. 
I don't understand the point 

1142
01:08:58,240 --> 01:09:00,800
he's making. 
I mean, the point he's making is

1143
01:09:00,800 --> 01:09:08,120
that in translations of the day 
they describe that, you know, 

1144
01:09:08,359 --> 01:09:10,800
John says the other disciple 
went into the tomb and then he 

1145
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:17,279
saw the strips of linen lying 
there next to another piece of 

1146
01:09:17,279 --> 01:09:21,279
linen that was folded up. 
And so the, the idea is the 

1147
01:09:21,279 --> 01:09:25,800
strips of linen, but, but 
earlier, Joseph Arimathea buys a

1148
01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:27,160
nice cloth and drapes them in 
it. 

1149
01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:30,399
So it, we already know there's a
linen sheet, you know, so the 

1150
01:09:30,399 --> 01:09:32,920
fact that it says strips of 
linen to me doesn't really mean 

1151
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:35,319
anything. 
And it says it's laying next to 

1152
01:09:35,319 --> 01:09:38,399
the other linen. 
So there's multiple linen. 

1153
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:43,960
So this is not like really a 
problem for me at all. 

1154
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:46,319
So I don't understand why it I 
think it has more to do with 

1155
01:09:46,319 --> 01:09:49,520
church politics of his time, you
know, because this was a 

1156
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:54,360
Catholic relic and, you know, 
they, the Catholics are very 

1157
01:09:54,360 --> 01:09:57,160
into relics and and the, you 
know, the Calvinists, 

1158
01:09:57,160 --> 01:10:00,080
Protestants probably weren't. 
So I think this is more of just 

1159
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:05,200
a church issue that to me is 
shouldn't be long since past, 

1160
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:07,880
you know. 
Oh yeah. 

1161
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:12,440
For sure, dude, for sure. 
I think this should be this 

1162
01:10:12,440 --> 01:10:20,520
should be something that all 
denomination or category of 

1163
01:10:20,520 --> 01:10:23,560
Christian faith could rally 
behind. 

1164
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:29,800
Yeah, you know, yeah. 
If this is authentic, that's the

1165
01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:39,600
image of our savior that that 
that's like a game-winning 

1166
01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:41,800
touchdown. 
You know, I mean, to any 

1167
01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:44,960
skeptic, it would be like, boom,
take that. 

1168
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:47,320
You know what I mean? 
I. 

1169
01:10:47,440 --> 01:10:48,880
Agree. 
I agree. 

1170
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:51,240
And you know. 
I don't know man, I think this 

1171
01:10:51,240 --> 01:10:53,040
is beautiful. 
I, I do too. 

1172
01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:55,960
And you know, he looks, he looks
like how, how I would picture 

1173
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:58,320
Jesus looking. 
You know, he's a, he's a, a 

1174
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:04,760
Middle Eastern kind of tall, 
sturdy guy, you know, and, and 

1175
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:07,920
he, that, who's been tortured 
and humiliated and, and he's 

1176
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:10,040
preserved, his image is 
preserved perfectly. 

1177
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:14,760
And, and, and it's like it's 
evidence of the existence of 

1178
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:17,840
Jesus, his crucifixion. 
And I think you could argue the 

1179
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:21,760
resurrection because really 
there's no explanation for how 

1180
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:26,880
it's created other than the 
release of energy, right? 

1181
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:28,920
You know. 
Internally from, from, from the 

1182
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:32,040
inside of that, from. 
Within, Yeah, And people try to 

1183
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:35,840
people try to make these weird. 
There's this Brazilian grad 

1184
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:40,720
student who keeps publishing 
these papers saying it can't be 

1185
01:11:40,720 --> 01:11:46,880
real because the image, if it 
was from a pressing, would be 

1186
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:51,040
warped, not realizing that as 
believers, you know, we don't 

1187
01:11:51,040 --> 01:11:53,640
think it was from a pressing. 
We don't think this is a sweat 

1188
01:11:53,640 --> 01:11:55,840
stain. 
You know, we think this is an 

1189
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:59,600
image captured by energy, 
probably ultraviolet light. 

1190
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:04,440
And there's some good evidence 
for for maybe it being plasma, 

1191
01:12:05,640 --> 01:12:11,080
you know, because plasma 
releases a lot of UV light, but 

1192
01:12:11,080 --> 01:12:15,040
it does so along electrical 
field lines. 

1193
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:18,560
And so it can actually transfer 
an image really well. 

1194
01:12:18,600 --> 01:12:22,920
And they've done this in in 
experiments in a way where it 

1195
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:25,200
wouldn't be warped. 
And the fact that it's not 

1196
01:12:25,200 --> 01:12:29,320
warped is a real problem for the
pressing hypothesis, right? 

1197
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:34,880
It's like a photo. 
And what do photos? 

1198
01:12:34,880 --> 01:12:36,600
Use. 
You know photos use light, 

1199
01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:41,640
right? 
Yeah, 'cause there's no burn at 

1200
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:44,120
all. 
So any kind of emission would 

1201
01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:48,960
have been like a flash, right? 
Yeah, it it. 

1202
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:51,720
Would have to have gone so 
quickly. 

1203
01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:57,160
Quick, and maybe not even that 
hot. 

1204
01:12:57,240 --> 01:13:01,440
I mean, it could just be that 
the structure of the cellulose 

1205
01:13:01,440 --> 01:13:07,440
was altered by a brief flash of 
UV and maybe the image wasn't 

1206
01:13:07,440 --> 01:13:11,080
really there at first because 
that's another argument is like,

1207
01:13:11,080 --> 01:13:12,960
why didn't the disciples write 
about this? 

1208
01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:16,240
This is insane, you know, and 
it, it could be that the linen 

1209
01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:19,800
looked pretty normal, you know, 
and, and maybe it was so slight 

1210
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:23,960
that they just assumed what 
everyone assumed until 1900, 

1211
01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:29,040
that it was like sweat or, or, 
or or blood or something, you 

1212
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:35,280
know, and they kept the cloth 
because it's still an important 

1213
01:13:35,280 --> 01:13:37,320
relic. 
But it wasn't for, you know, a 

1214
01:13:37,320 --> 01:13:43,080
long time later that the image 
really solidified as the exposed

1215
01:13:43,080 --> 01:13:46,200
regions age differently than the
non exposed regions. 

1216
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:47,520
I mean, that's just a 
hypothesis. 

1217
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:52,000
We don't know, but certainly. 
Well, that makes sense. 

1218
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:56,520
I mean, even like oils from your
hands, you know, can, can stain,

1219
01:13:57,080 --> 01:14:00,800
you know, and the same comes 
more more evident with time, you

1220
01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:04,840
know, as it has exposure and it 
yellows or whatever. 

1221
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:08,600
Sun, it all changed. 
Imagine and imagine that over 

1222
01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:12,480
1000 years, you know, Yeah, 
yeah. 

1223
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:15,240
So anyway. 
This is awesome man. 

1224
01:14:15,320 --> 01:14:17,160
I. 
Like, man, yeah, I appreciate 

1225
01:14:17,160 --> 01:14:18,520
it. 
Sorry my internet's weird and 

1226
01:14:18,520 --> 01:14:21,600
I'll probably at some point need
to go entertain my son. 

1227
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:23,040
He's being he's being good now, 
though. 

1228
01:14:23,040 --> 01:14:26,120
Appreciate you buddy. 
He found he's got his iPad 

1229
01:14:26,160 --> 01:14:27,480
working so. 
Yeah, man. 

1230
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:32,080
But. 
Yeah, I won't keep you long. 

1231
01:14:32,080 --> 01:14:35,920
I just, I do have a question for
you and it's kind of unrelated, 

1232
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:41,880
but it it involves your walk and
I, I hate to put you on the 

1233
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:44,960
spot, Trevor, I, I promise I'm 
not trying to be mean here. 

1234
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:51,800
I'll put you on the spot. 
But your mindset, you know, you 

1235
01:14:52,160 --> 01:14:56,160
have a science background and 
you were atheist for so long, 

1236
01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:05,800
how would you? 
Or is there like, I doubt 

1237
01:15:05,800 --> 01:15:07,240
there's a cut and draw a way to 
do it. 

1238
01:15:07,920 --> 01:15:13,360
But if you were to talk to 
another atheist, and I know we 

1239
01:15:13,360 --> 01:15:17,640
don't, it's not our job to 
convince people of Christ, but 

1240
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:25,480
what, what do you think is a 
compelling thing to someone who 

1241
01:15:25,480 --> 01:15:34,400
is an atheist but willing to 
listen to to maybe reveal Christ

1242
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:35,840
to him? 
This is a question. 

1243
01:15:36,320 --> 01:15:39,240
I How would you how would you 
share the gospel with an 

1244
01:15:39,240 --> 01:15:41,360
atheist? 
I wrestle with this so much. 

1245
01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:44,880
I mean, that that was my, that 
was kind of the idea behind the 

1246
01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:49,840
first book is like, I've 
basically been like preaching 

1247
01:15:49,840 --> 01:15:53,240
for the adversary my whole life.
You know, I need to undo some of

1248
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:55,320
this, you know, not that that's 
how I think it necessarily 

1249
01:15:55,320 --> 01:15:58,240
works, but just like I felt 
ashamed and guilty, you know, 

1250
01:15:59,280 --> 01:16:01,880
And so I try, I try to write it 
in a way where it was like 

1251
01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:05,840
convincing to that type of 
person, but I don't, I don't 

1252
01:16:05,840 --> 01:16:09,120
know if I've really found, I 
mean, I've had some people who 

1253
01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:13,480
are more on the fence tell me 
that the book was powerful for 

1254
01:16:13,480 --> 01:16:15,240
them. 
But I don't know if I've had 

1255
01:16:15,240 --> 01:16:18,440
like an out and out, like 
atheist say like, Oh, you show 

1256
01:16:18,440 --> 01:16:20,560
me the light. 
And I, and I think it's because 

1257
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:25,320
I just, I just don't, I just 
don't think there is a purely 

1258
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:29,080
scientific argument that's 
convincing because every piece 

1259
01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:31,960
of evidence can be used to 
support to this. 

1260
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:35,520
And this is an important point 
to mutually exclusive arguments.

1261
01:16:36,080 --> 01:16:40,680
And so imagine, you know, 
imagine there's four of you 

1262
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:44,040
sitting around a table and 
there's a stack of cards in the 

1263
01:16:44,040 --> 01:16:45,560
middle of the table and there's 
a dealer. 

1264
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:48,560
OK. 
And the dealer says, OK, I want 

1265
01:16:48,560 --> 01:16:51,800
each of you to put 100 bucks on 
a suit. 

1266
01:16:52,480 --> 01:16:54,280
You know, is it hearts, is it 
diamonds? 

1267
01:16:54,280 --> 01:16:59,040
Is it clubs or is it spades? 
And so everyone picks a suit 

1268
01:16:59,440 --> 01:17:01,320
and, and they each have to pick 
a different 1. 

1269
01:17:01,320 --> 01:17:03,120
So all four suits are accounted 
for. 

1270
01:17:03,800 --> 01:17:07,080
And the dealer kind of sneaks a 
look at the top card and looks 

1271
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:09,280
back at everyone and goes, OK, 
I'm going to give you a hint. 

1272
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:11,560
You can't change your guess, but
I'm going to give you a hint. 

1273
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:16,560
It's red. 
So in that situation, the same 

1274
01:17:16,560 --> 01:17:21,520
piece of evidence supports 
hearts just as much as diamonds,

1275
01:17:22,840 --> 01:17:26,000
right? 
And so this is constantly what 

1276
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:29,880
we see in science because the 
the evidence for God is real 

1277
01:17:29,880 --> 01:17:32,560
evidence. 
And So what people do is they 

1278
01:17:32,560 --> 01:17:35,240
create stand insurance for God. 
You know, they say the 

1279
01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:38,520
multiverse theory. 
And so any piece of evidence 

1280
01:17:38,520 --> 01:17:40,960
that supports God is probably 
going to support the multiverse 

1281
01:17:40,960 --> 01:17:42,920
theory. 
And any piece of evidence that 

1282
01:17:42,920 --> 01:17:45,440
supports this creation is 
probably going to support, you 

1283
01:17:45,440 --> 01:17:50,240
know, so they, they, they make 
an imitation like a counterfeit.

1284
01:17:50,800 --> 01:17:53,720
I don't think it's intentional 
necessarily, but they make a 

1285
01:17:53,720 --> 01:17:56,160
counterfeit explanation, a 
counterfeit God. 

1286
01:17:56,440 --> 01:17:59,240
You know, you hear people say, 
like the universe told me, you 

1287
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:02,680
know, this is just, they're just
just counterfeit language. 

1288
01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:06,920
It means kind of the same thing.
And so I don't really think it's

1289
01:18:06,920 --> 01:18:10,560
possible ultimately for me, I 
think you just got to hit a 

1290
01:18:10,560 --> 01:18:13,320
point in your life where you're 
like, let me just read this 

1291
01:18:13,320 --> 01:18:16,200
thing, you know, and I do 
encourage people, you know, how 

1292
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:17,520
do you share the Gospel? 
You asked me? 

1293
01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:18,760
I think that's literally what 
you do. 

1294
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:23,360
You just, you got to try to 
convince someone to read Matthew

1295
01:18:23,360 --> 01:18:28,640
or John or whatever, because 
it's hard to have like a 

1296
01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:32,440
principled atheist position when
you read. 

1297
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:36,440
I think I read Matthew first, 
which later now people tell me 

1298
01:18:36,440 --> 01:18:39,200
like, maybe that's not the right
one to start with, you know, but

1299
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:44,080
I just read that I'm like, 
there's there's no moral reason 

1300
01:18:44,080 --> 01:18:47,280
to be against this. 
And so like I really have to 

1301
01:18:47,320 --> 01:18:52,120
evaluate why I'm like so adamant
that it's not real. 

1302
01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:55,880
Is it really, is it really 
objective reasoning? 

1303
01:18:56,120 --> 01:18:59,040
Because it's not really true. 
I mean, we we kind of lie as 

1304
01:18:59,040 --> 01:19:05,800
scientists about what we know. 
And so I don't know. 

1305
01:19:05,960 --> 01:19:10,560
I think it's, I ultimately I 
think God is plays the primary 

1306
01:19:10,560 --> 01:19:14,040
role, you know, so it's just our
job to sort of encourage people 

1307
01:19:14,040 --> 01:19:18,160
to read the Bible now. 
That's it. 

1308
01:19:18,160 --> 01:19:20,520
I mean, I try to make scientific
arguments all the time on my 

1309
01:19:20,520 --> 01:19:24,320
podcast, but that's just more 
because I'm curious, you know, I

1310
01:19:24,320 --> 01:19:27,160
don't, I don't know, I don't 
know how convincing it is. 

1311
01:19:27,160 --> 01:19:31,000
Now for agnostics, I think the 
science angle can be helpful 

1312
01:19:31,200 --> 01:19:33,560
because they already sort of 
believe in something. 

1313
01:19:34,520 --> 01:19:37,400
They just want to be convinced 
what to believe in. 

1314
01:19:37,400 --> 01:19:40,600
So I think I that's where I find
the most traction. 

1315
01:19:43,440 --> 01:19:45,000
Yeah, Amen. 
That sounds good. 

1316
01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:48,560
That makes sense. 
That makes sense because I, I 

1317
01:19:48,560 --> 01:19:55,600
have AI have a couple of people 
that I love so much and I hold 

1318
01:19:55,600 --> 01:19:58,160
them and their thoughts and 
their feelings and their 

1319
01:19:58,160 --> 01:20:02,800
opinions so dear. 
But this is our one point of 

1320
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:09,000
contention, you know, And they. 
Have tried to explain or tried 

1321
01:20:09,000 --> 01:20:14,440
to argue their case, and then 
they get into the emotional side

1322
01:20:14,440 --> 01:20:18,560
of a conversation and I get 
along, you know, like, and I'm 

1323
01:20:18,560 --> 01:20:21,240
not going to try to. 
Yeah. 

1324
01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:25,480
And I, I'm not going to. 
I I try not to match that energy

1325
01:20:26,400 --> 01:20:29,280
and still make a valid case for 
I. 

1326
01:20:29,320 --> 01:20:33,320
I just want to want to sow some 
seeds, you know what I mean? 

1327
01:20:34,680 --> 01:20:36,400
And give them something to think
about later. 

1328
01:20:36,400 --> 01:20:39,440
I think I think that's the right
approach, man, because I think 

1329
01:20:39,440 --> 01:20:41,920
atheists tend to have a lot of 
pride and that that, you know, 

1330
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:42,920
humans do. 
But. 

1331
01:20:43,960 --> 01:20:46,400
And so I don't think they really
want to be convinced. 

1332
01:20:46,400 --> 01:20:48,360
But yeah, if you can plant 
seeds. 

1333
01:20:48,680 --> 01:20:51,640
I mean, a big thing for me was 
being reflective and saying, why

1334
01:20:51,640 --> 01:20:54,520
am I emotional about this? 
Like, I'm trying to make this 

1335
01:20:54,520 --> 01:20:58,200
claim that I'm the scientific 
objective guy convinced by 

1336
01:20:58,200 --> 01:21:01,200
rational arguments. 
And when I talk about this, I 

1337
01:21:01,200 --> 01:21:06,920
get super defensive. 
And so clearly it's not just 

1338
01:21:07,000 --> 01:21:11,640
objective, you know, 'cause if, 
if you told me the sky is red, I

1339
01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:14,480
want to get upset, you know, 
'cause like, I know it's blue, 

1340
01:21:14,520 --> 01:21:18,560
you know, so, so the fact that 
an atheist gets so defensive, it

1341
01:21:18,560 --> 01:21:20,880
there's some, there's something 
in them, you know, there's 

1342
01:21:20,880 --> 01:21:22,560
something in them wrestling with
it. 

1343
01:21:23,320 --> 01:21:28,760
And I think a good strategy. 
Not again, not that you can 

1344
01:21:28,760 --> 01:21:32,520
convince people's somehow 
encourage them to like, really 

1345
01:21:32,520 --> 01:21:35,760
ask themselves why, like, what 
are you wrestling with? 

1346
01:21:36,600 --> 01:21:39,160
And I think it's number one, 
pride and #2 resentment. 

1347
01:21:39,200 --> 01:21:41,920
I think if somebody's had like a
lot of bad things happen to 

1348
01:21:41,920 --> 01:21:47,080
them, it's sort of like, why? 
Like, why would would this 

1349
01:21:47,080 --> 01:21:48,480
happen to me? 
You know? 

1350
01:21:51,160 --> 01:21:53,800
I think it's like a bad 
relationship with your dad, you 

1351
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:58,160
know, It's like, it's like pride
and resent there. 

1352
01:21:58,200 --> 01:22:00,280
It's like just a bundle of 
emotions. 

1353
01:22:00,280 --> 01:22:04,600
And it's not till later in life 
that you go like, OK, I mean #1 

1354
01:22:04,600 --> 01:22:07,360
there's such a thing as bad dad.
So put that aside. 

1355
01:22:07,360 --> 01:22:10,960
But I think even people with 
good dads, you know, they just 

1356
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:13,120
wrestle with something with 
their dad. 

1357
01:22:13,120 --> 01:22:15,600
And I think you look back and 
you go, OK. 

1358
01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:22,120
For me, certainly now that I 
have kids, like bad things, I 

1359
01:22:22,120 --> 01:22:23,520
need to let bad things happen in
there. 

1360
01:22:24,080 --> 01:22:27,440
You know, I need them to learn 
things. 

1361
01:22:27,880 --> 01:22:31,480
I can't necessarily give them a 
perfect cushy world because 

1362
01:22:31,480 --> 01:22:33,400
they're going to turn out wrong,
you know? 

1363
01:22:34,560 --> 01:22:38,040
And so that helped me a little 
bit with resentment. 

1364
01:22:38,040 --> 01:22:40,560
But I think everybody's got 
their own kind of walk. 

1365
01:22:40,560 --> 01:22:43,560
It's tough, man. 
I think about this a lot. 

1366
01:22:44,320 --> 01:22:44,960
I really do. 
Yeah. 

1367
01:22:46,760 --> 01:22:50,000
Yeah. 
I can tell and that the example 

1368
01:22:50,000 --> 01:22:53,880
you gave, I'm glad. 
I'm glad I asked that question 

1369
01:22:54,600 --> 01:23:00,000
because the example you gave the
the paternal struggle at that's 

1370
01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:05,400
part of their The Who I have in 
my mind and on my heart, that's 

1371
01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:09,400
part of their natural side of 
life struggle. 

1372
01:23:10,240 --> 01:23:12,760
So I could see where that extra 
resemble. 

1373
01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:16,360
A lot of a lot of famous 
atheists have real problems with

1374
01:23:16,360 --> 01:23:20,080
their father. 
And it's a common theme. 

1375
01:23:20,560 --> 01:23:22,480
It makes sense because what is 
fatherhood? 

1376
01:23:22,480 --> 01:23:26,040
You know, it's like a microcosm 
of a relationship with God, you 

1377
01:23:26,040 --> 01:23:29,800
know, like, so if you haven't 
had benevolent father modeled 

1378
01:23:29,800 --> 01:23:31,240
for you, it's tough to believe 
in. 

1379
01:23:31,480 --> 01:23:33,680
You know, if you've never seen 
it, how are you going to believe

1380
01:23:33,680 --> 01:23:34,440
in it? 
You know? 

1381
01:23:34,640 --> 01:23:37,160
So yeah, it's tough. 
It's tough. 

1382
01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:44,680
But anyway, so yeah, I hope 
people check out the book Shroud

1383
01:23:44,680 --> 01:23:46,840
Pilled. 
It's it's definitely more on the

1384
01:23:46,840 --> 01:23:51,440
scientific side. 
No, I don't think it's like dry.

1385
01:23:51,440 --> 01:23:54,760
I think it's good to have like 
ammo, you know, but it's I'm, 

1386
01:23:54,880 --> 01:23:57,120
I'm trying to make the 
scientific case, you know, so 

1387
01:23:57,320 --> 01:24:01,680
hopefully people are all right 
with that and and God's eye view

1388
01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:05,960
Amazon. 
I need, I need you guys to give 

1389
01:24:05,960 --> 01:24:08,920
me some five stars. 
I got this like essay from this 

1390
01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:14,520
shroud skeptic guy. 
You made one good point. 

1391
01:24:14,520 --> 01:24:16,800
I might actually change. 
It's important to be open to 

1392
01:24:16,800 --> 01:24:20,600
feedback. 
But but then but then yeah. 

1393
01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:23,080
But then if people want to check
out God's Eye view as well, 

1394
01:24:23,080 --> 01:24:25,400
that's an audio book. 
So if you have Audible, you can 

1395
01:24:25,600 --> 01:24:29,280
it's also paperback, but or just
check out the podcast. 

1396
01:24:29,280 --> 01:24:31,360
The podcast is free, so check 
that out too. 

1397
01:24:34,640 --> 01:24:40,480
Awesome God's Eye View Podcast, 
Bad Press Podcast, Shroud Peeled

1398
01:24:40,600 --> 01:24:43,960
and God's Eye View the Book on 
Amazon. 

1399
01:24:47,000 --> 01:24:49,680
Dude, I love it. 
I'm so grateful for you coming 

1400
01:24:49,680 --> 01:24:52,320
on the show today. 
I'm going to let you get, you 

1401
01:24:52,320 --> 01:24:56,040
know, get with your baby over 
there and enjoy your evening. 

1402
01:24:56,600 --> 01:24:59,080
But I thank you, Trevor for 
taking the time man to talk to 

1403
01:24:59,080 --> 01:24:59,960
me again. 
Thank you, Bill. 

1404
01:24:59,960 --> 01:25:04,920
Appreciate it. 
All right, brother, you have a 

1405
01:25:04,920 --> 01:25:06,360
good evening. 
God bless. 

1406
01:25:06,360 --> 01:25:10,000
God bless. 
See ya. 

1407
01:25:10,320 --> 01:25:13,800
Talk to you later. 
Bye. 

1408
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:25,040
That's it for this week. 
Thank you so much for listening.

1409
01:25:25,480 --> 01:25:28,120
If you have an experience or an 
encounter that you'd like to 

1410
01:25:28,120 --> 01:25:30,600
share, holler at me. 
You can reach me at 

1411
01:25:30,600 --> 01:25:39,880
thebumppodcast@gmail.com or buy 
the bump phone at 304-812-0553. 

1412
01:25:40,400 --> 01:25:43,160
Leave a text or a voicemail 
either way, and I'll get back to

1413
01:25:43,160 --> 01:25:45,680
you. 
Also, please be sure to leave a 

1414
01:25:45,680 --> 01:25:48,920
five star rating and review on 
whatever platform you're 

1415
01:25:48,920 --> 01:25:51,720
listening to. 
Stick around after this for a 

1416
01:25:51,720 --> 01:26:04,040
special invitation if you're 
personally ready to submit your 

1417
01:26:04,040 --> 01:26:07,640
life to God and accept Jesus as 
your Lord and Savior. 

1418
01:26:08,600 --> 01:26:13,440
The book of Romans chapter 10 
verse 9 says it really simply, 

1419
01:26:13,520 --> 01:26:17,160
that if you confess with your 
mouth Jesus as Lord and believe 

1420
01:26:17,160 --> 01:26:20,240
in your heart that God raised 
him from the dead, you will be 

1421
01:26:20,240 --> 01:26:23,840
saved. 
It's that simple to be born 

1422
01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:28,880
again, to start a new life as a 
child of God, to join God's 

1423
01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:32,800
army, to rise up against the 
evil forces that you know we're 

1424
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:35,160
all around you. 
You don't have to do it alone. 

1425
01:26:37,920 --> 01:26:41,720
I love you, Jesus loves you, and
May God bless you. 

1426
01:26:51,960 --> 01:27:03,760
In the distance, Jesus with his 
gone the quietest smoke, with a 

1427
01:27:04,080 --> 01:27:15,560
voice that sounds like from the 
earth, the streets of gold. 

1428
01:27:17,280 --> 01:27:28,320
Here's a beer. 
This is like like saying hi upon

1429
01:27:29,000 --> 01:27:40,760
his strong as 10,000 times 
10,000 saying we find. 

1430
01:27:49,760 --> 01:27:59,280
We Hallelujah right away, 
forever, thank you. 

1431
01:28:00,080 --> 01:28:11,920
Right away, Name of Jesus. 
Oh my soul. 

1432
01:28:11,920 --> 01:28:34,840
Thank you God. 
Where the tree of life is only 

1433
01:28:36,040 --> 01:28:40,920
where the earth has not been 
told. 

1434
01:28:42,800 --> 01:28:53,640
No more tears in that bright 
city death will have to fling 

1435
01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:58,120
over the world. 
Do well more. 

1436
01:28:58,120 --> 01:29:08,400
See the perfect day. 
Glory, glory. 

1437
01:29:10,400 --> 01:29:31,760
Thank you Jesus, blessed God. 
Praise the holy name of Jesus. 

1438
01:29:34,280 --> 01:29:43,800
Oh my soul, Thank you. 
There's a table in that kind of 

1439
01:29:44,040 --> 01:29:51,760
tree. 
See that way, The sight of oh, 

1440
01:29:52,680 --> 01:30:04,280
thank you God, with the troubles
far behind him to never suffer, 

1441
01:30:04,280 --> 01:30:14,920
he and I'm going home in the 
morning to that land. 

1442
01:30:16,680 --> 01:30:21,840
You're so bright and fat. 
You walk the street. 

1443
01:30:21,840 --> 01:30:32,520
You ain't to go with Jesus. 
Name that city Bill Foursquare. 

1444
01:30:34,920 --> 01:30:41,560
Glory, glory and your blessing, 
Jesus. 

1445
01:30:47,920 --> 01:31:00,840
I'm going home to live with 
Jesus on that happy Golden Shoe.

1446
01:31:02,560 --> 01:31:06,360
Thank you, Lord. 
Welcome to Appalachia and the 

1447
01:31:06,360 --> 01:31:09,920
land of ancient curses, burial, 
mounds of giants, mysterious 

1448
01:31:09,920 --> 01:31:13,240
artifacts, legends of cryptids, 
spiritual warfare, the 

1449
01:31:13,240 --> 01:31:18,040
paranormal, principalities, 
witchcraft, portals, and seven 

1450
01:31:18,040 --> 01:31:19,840
friends caught in the middle of 
it all. 

1451
01:31:20,160 --> 01:31:24,040
This is my book Terror by Night.
It's my first fiction novel. 

1452
01:31:24,280 --> 01:31:27,840
I hope you guys check it out. 
It's available on Amazon in 

1453
01:31:27,840 --> 01:31:33,360
paperback, e-book, or hardback. 
I had a lot of fun writing this 

1454
01:31:33,440 --> 01:31:37,320
and it is full of research 
material on that entity known as

1455
01:31:37,320 --> 01:31:42,000
Lilith. 
Also tons of notes on spiritual 

1456
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:44,400
warfare. 
It's close to my heart. 

1457
01:31:44,920 --> 01:31:47,760
I had a lot of fun writing this 
book and my wife loves it. 

1458
01:31:48,040 --> 01:31:49,400
There's something for everybody 
in it. 

1459
01:31:49,760 --> 01:31:54,760
It's got action, adventure, lost
love, and warfare. 

1460
01:31:55,160 --> 01:31:58,280
Pick up a copy today, check it 
out, and let me know what you 

1461
01:31:58,280 --> 01:31:59,520
think. 
God bless. 

1462
01:32:03,840 --> 01:32:07,360
For those interested in 
spiritual warfare, please check 

1463
01:32:07,360 --> 01:32:12,440
out my book it's called Army of 
God Pocket Guide to Spiritual 

1464
01:32:12,440 --> 01:32:14,880
warfare. 
It's available on Amazon and 

1465
01:32:14,880 --> 01:32:18,840
paperback, hardback and I 
believe now the Kindle edition. 

1466
01:32:19,120 --> 01:32:22,400
So please check it out and be 
sure to leave a five star rating

1467
01:32:22,400 --> 01:32:25,240
review Amazon. 
It's easy to find. 

1468
01:32:25,680 --> 01:32:26,200
God bless.