1 00:00:09,290 --> 00:00:12,770 Welcome to another episode of TPM Ridge, the podcast where we 2 00:00:12,770 --> 00:00:15,690 bring in industry leaders in technical program management to 3 00:00:15,690 --> 00:00:18,690 share their insights, experiences, and the lessons 4 00:00:18,690 --> 00:00:21,290 they've learned on the front lines of the TPM movement. 5 00:00:21,810 --> 00:00:24,890 I'm your host, Doran Katz, and each week we dive in deep into 6 00:00:24,890 --> 00:00:28,290 the methodologies, mindsets and tools that will empower you to 7 00:00:28,290 --> 00:00:31,010 drive excellence in technical program management. 8 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,240 Whether you're new to TPM or looking to take your skills to 9 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,440 the next level, this podcast is your go to resource for 10 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,160 transforming TPM principles into real world success. 11 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:50,640 Welcome everyone to our post summer or full episode of TPM 12 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:51,640 Ridge. It's been a little bit of a 13 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,480 break. We've all taken some time off to 14 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,520 recharge our batteries and we're we're back here and today's 15 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:00,680 topic is going to be really interesting. 16 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,680 We're going to be talking about fractional TPM Ings. 17 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,960 You know, we've sort of heard of fractional sort of executive 18 00:01:07,960 --> 00:01:11,400 work and you know, things that sort of been gaining momentum. 19 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,200 But you know, basically it's the essentially it's a part time 20 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,080 contract based role where you kind of split your time across 21 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,640 multiple teams, products and even companies. 22 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,960 So it's sort of like we work a program management as somebody 23 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,920 quit once. So this is a very, it's becoming 24 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,440 a interesting space where startups and even larger firms 25 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,760 are trying to do more with less. So without having to pay for a 26 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,320 full time headcount, especially these days with AI and all of 27 00:01:36,320 --> 00:01:39,320 that stuff that's happening. This is sort of a new sort of 28 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:46,160 gig economy style flex work. So it's a great topic to discuss 29 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,960 with me. I've got Michael Goetz and James 30 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:51,440 De Huff. Welcome guys. 31 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,440 Hi, I'm happy to be here. Thanks, Jordan. 32 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,720 Yeah, happy to be here. Back to school, as my kid would 33 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:58,720 say. Yes, it's, I don't know when 34 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:00,920 it's interesting, different parts of the country people 35 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,240 start different times. So for me, my kids started last 36 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,160 week. I don't know James in Texas. 37 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:07,920 When do you guys start? I think a bit earlier, right? 38 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,360 Yeah, 2 two out of my 3 kids are in school. 39 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:16,200 They started two weeks ago and it has changed the the home 40 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,880 dynamic, yeah. Yeah, New York was started this 41 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:20,840 week, so all good. Yeah. 42 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:21,840 So it's interesting, interesting. 43 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:26,200 I think the the colder climate places start later, I think 44 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:31,440 because it has to do with the Christmas winter snow closures 45 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,840 and stuff like that. I'm I'm guessing I don't know. 46 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:39,240 But anyway, back to topic here. So we, so fractional has been a 47 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,280 really interesting topic because Michael, you, you, you posted up 48 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,800 an interesting stat where you know, here in the US 25% of 49 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:51,080 companies, maybe up to 35% are currently utilizing fractional 50 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,800 executives, which is, you know, I'm really surprised by that 51 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:56,960 number. And it'll probably end up going 52 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,360 up a bit more. And you know, it's mostly been 53 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,520 around CFOSCMOS and CTO's, but we're starting to see some 54 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:09,160 program project management folks, you know, sort of come. 55 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,080 So what do you, yeah, what do you guys think about this trend 56 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,600 and what are you guys seeing in your insights? 57 00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:16,920 Yeah. I was looking up the number and 58 00:03:16,920 --> 00:03:20,160 then I think even interesting like on one of our favorite 59 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,280 websites, LinkedIn is also that the term or the search from 60 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:30,800 fractional also sort from 2000 to like 140,000 in 2022 and 61 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,080 2024. And the question is, is it like 62 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:37,280 also COVID related? One thing that I would be also 63 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:41,000 should discuss in the in the course of that as what does 64 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:46,720 fractional even mean for impact? And is, is it really a trend or 65 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,240 is it a necessity in the first step? 66 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,440 And maybe, James, you have the first stance on what it means, 67 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:58,160 TPM working as fractional TPMS or in a fractional role? 68 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,440 Yeah, it's a really interesting concept because a lot of TPMS, 69 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,600 when they thrive in organizations, it's, it's 70 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:08,680 because they they know how to navigate complex organizational 71 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,560 hierarchies and they can get things moving really quickly, 72 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:14,800 right. So working in a fractional 73 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,880 capacity, I think it would look a lot like there's a very 74 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,960 specific problem that the company would need to be solved, 75 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,200 right. This isn't a general TPM that 76 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,640 just that knows program management. 77 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,400 This would be a TPM. This fractional TPM would really 78 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:36,360 be a value when they know a really specific domain and are 79 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,600 able to add value in that very, very niche area. 80 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,760 And so that's, that's one way I think the most common way I 81 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,960 could imagine seeing a fractional TPM be deployed and 82 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:51,680 and used effectively, you know, that'd be part time commitment 83 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:56,240 on behalf of that TPM to share that niche expertise. 84 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,200 Do you see that as sort of similar to a contract, just a 85 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,680 general contract role where you kind of come in with a 86 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,360 specialized set of skills for that specific domain and purpose 87 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:07,960 only? This is sort of where you're 88 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,600 split across different companies and things like that? 89 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,800 Yeah, I can. Yeah, when you, when you talk 90 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,480 about skills, I think when let's, if we put ourself in 91 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,600 being in fractional TPM. So let's, let's forget at the 92 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,200 moment about our corporate shop and does it like you're starting 93 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:28,320 on Monday as fraction TPM for a company, you're right there and 94 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,240 you lose 1. And we talked last year in the 95 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,400 summit as well a lot about like impact and a lot about like 96 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,320 influencing without authority which skills do what. 97 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:43,680 I fear a little bit of fractured TPM Excel were DPM's who are 98 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,360 deeply in the organization as shame said or embedded into it 99 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,360 and build relationship have trust. 100 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,920 But it's just like you are arriving and which skill set are 101 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:57,320 you leaving behind or need to leave behind or can never excel 102 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,400 in because you don't have an opportunity because you are 103 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,440 perceived as and I would throw like very two very provocative 104 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,680 words into it, like as outsider or even are you hired as 105 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,560 firefighter? And I mean, this would be one 106 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:10,760 thing. And I think like the biggest 107 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,040 thing that you lose is literally the influence without authority. 108 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,880 And as in fraction 2:00 PM doing it longer as a Third Point, I 109 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,480 think it can become mentally quite cumbersome to always build 110 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,520 new relationships, like never having a steady state, but 111 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,000 always like going into an organization and never know what 112 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:28,080 to expect. It's interesting. 113 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,040 Yeah, do you. So I guess when you compare it 114 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,720 to other roles that, you know, do fractional like, you know, 115 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,040 like CF OS and other executive roles, they come in with 116 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,920 authority, obviously. So it's not a matter of the 117 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:44,320 trust, but you sort of have that that authority that mandates I 118 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:45,800 was just doing. But on the other, on the flip 119 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,520 side, you have engineers who also come in, you know, sort of 120 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,640 fractionally. And for them it's probably been 121 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,360 harder to do context switching. I would say they don't have 122 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,360 they're not working towards earning authority either. 123 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:00,280 So they maybe presume would lack that motivation. 124 00:07:00,280 --> 00:07:02,320 So I just don't know what your thoughts are on. 125 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,200 So there's different role comparisons, you know, for TPMS 126 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,960 versus others. Yeah, I would think that like 127 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,760 with the TPM specifically being fractional, I have a hard time 128 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,080 with that thinking about an ICTPM being fractional. 129 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,480 To me that sounds like a contract project manager that 130 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,120 can dedicate time to a smaller project. 131 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,960 If there are truly strategically important things that a company 132 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,080 needs to deliver on, I don't think they're very incentivized 133 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:35,040 to have a fractional non member of the company jump into that. 134 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,600 And so the way I, my mind kind of thinks about it is like, OK, 135 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:42,760 let's let's consider maybe the size of the companies, right? 136 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,680 If you look at startups and small companies, they may lean 137 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,040 into that, they may lean into a fractional TPM. 138 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:54,000 But what also may happen is that somebody else with a, a 139 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,840 different role in the company may become that fractional TPM 140 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,480 by doing those activities that a TPM would do to get things 141 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,720 across the finish line. Because in startups, outcomes 142 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:09,560 trump everything else, right? And, and the, the Gray area of 143 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,880 roles is a lot higher than when you get to the scale of like 144 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,760 Google, where role definition is very, very strict and there's a 145 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,160 lot less flexibility within a role to do different types of 146 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:21,560 things. So I think if you look at 147 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,640 company size startups, A fractional TPM might just be 148 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,120 somebody informally doing it internally or yes, there may be 149 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:34,000 like the company might not exist in three months if we don't get 150 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,640 somebody in here to drive this thing forward and help us get 151 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,600 organized, right? So it would be like what you 152 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,440 said, firefighting, right? On the other hand, if you look 153 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,720 at like mid size companies, this is really an interesting sweet 154 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,520 spot for TPMS And that I think this is where companies they 155 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,600 they have a little bit more security in their, in their road 156 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,960 map and their longevity and their confidence and existing 157 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,240 beyond three months, right? I think at this point a lot of 158 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:07,000 companies they start to see that they need a function like a TPM 159 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:11,160 function to help them scale the way they execute strategic 160 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,280 initiatives. And so that point, I think if 161 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:18,480 fractional TPM is not an ICTPM where they bring somebody in and 162 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,760 they say go execute on this initiative, I think at that 163 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,360 point it you become, you would start to see more fractional TPM 164 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,160 leaders kind of like a fractional CFO, right? 165 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:35,040 And helps mature this domain that the, the company may not be 166 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,560 as familiar with. And so this fractional TPM 167 00:09:37,560 --> 00:09:41,840 leader essentially helps accelerate that maturity and 168 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,960 helps establish it a lot faster. And they don't need to be around 169 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,200 for every single initiative throughout the week, but they 170 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:54,400 need to be available to help consult and to train and to 171 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,800 really like evangelize across the company what it is that the 172 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:04,040 TPM function and culture adds to the what value they add to the 173 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,440 overall mission of the company. So I think startups and mid size 174 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,720 companies look very, very different when it comes to 175 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,280 fractional TPMS. And then big companies. 176 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,320 I don't see much investment unless there is like a hyper 177 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:21,520 specialized domain where they just can't find the talent right 178 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,720 either internally or in a full time employee. 179 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,800 It would be, it would surprise me if large companies, you know, 180 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,720 if we go back to like the size of Google, it surprised me if 181 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,680 they hired something like a fractional TPM for a job. 182 00:10:34,680 --> 00:10:38,160 They might hire contractors for short lived programs and 183 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,520 projects, but that would probably be a full time TPM for 184 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,040 a limited number of months or weeks, but not like a fractional 185 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:51,280 TPM coming in half of the week or like 8 hours split throughout 186 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:52,920 the five days, whatever it might look like. 187 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:57,040 So I think that to me, helpful context to look at fractional 188 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,240 TPM ING is through the size of the company and what the needs 189 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,640 are and how they may react to a fractional TPM being involved. 190 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,640 Interesting. It's also quite interesting when 191 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:11,160 you think about, let's boil it down also to specific examples 192 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,280 on all of that. And when you think about certain 193 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:17,600 situations where TPM operating and what really came to our mind 194 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,400 at the beginning, we're talking about fraction is like launching 195 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,040 a new product because this can be very encapsulated. 196 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,760 This is like, you know, there's a specific product where people 197 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,520 are anywhere like isolated and they're working on that. 198 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,880 And this could help like making a demand for in fractional TPM 199 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,440 and they can be working like fully autonomously and also 200 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,520 build the relationship for a short amount of of time. 201 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,760 And another thing and most speaking from experience is this 202 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,400 post merger integration because sometimes what is happening when 203 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,640 you do like acquisitions or mergers, then there's always 204 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,280 this balance between a bigger company versus smaller company 205 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,560 or like same size merger. Then one company does have TPS, 206 00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:01,280 the other ones don't. And then you can work as 207 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,520 fraction TPM and it's based on helping integrating it where you 208 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,560 can also bring technical expertise into that place. 209 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,840 And the third one would as well be getting a new technology 210 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,480 because I think out there what we have seen in in many TPMS, 211 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,720 certain TPMS are very specialized on a certain thing 212 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,720 that a new company wants to adopt, but they don't know where 213 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:21,880 to start. Yeah. 214 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:26,320 And this could could help that specialized TPMS and during we 215 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,000 had this in a certain particle as well that could like find 216 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,680 their niche in working fractional. 217 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,000 So yeah, you know, I'm this opportunity thinking of for a 218 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,840 fraction that could work, could be an experiment upcoming in the 219 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:38,960 next 1 1/2 three years. Yeah. 220 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,360 I mean, so it's interesting that one thing you mentioned, James, 221 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,360 was that I took from your from what you said was the tactical 222 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,520 versus strategic sort of TPM, right. 223 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:52,200 So we talk about the, well, I guess I'll call it the initial 224 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,480 phase of a startup where, you know, maybe you got one round of 225 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,360 funding. And then basically it's all sort 226 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,000 of in firefighting mode, as you said, Michael, to kind of for 227 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,640 the engineers to kind of get to their to the point they need to 228 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,040 get to, to get the funding and then get to the next step step. 229 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,560 And then at that point there, which is the second Phase, I 230 00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:10,080 guess maybe, you know, funding, maybe in that case, they bring a 231 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,120 TPM to kind of clean up the debt, clean up the mess, kind of 232 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:17,400 restructuring or strategically align what needs to be done, you 233 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,320 know, to get everything towards the next phase, next goal they 234 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,320 want to want to get to as well. I'm so I think that's sort of 235 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:27,480 intermediary startup phases where TPMS can can certainly 236 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:29,160 succeed. And nobody really what companies 237 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:33,440 think of TPMS at the beginning of, you know, when they're first 238 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:35,760 created, it is released engineers, product manager or 239 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,960 our founders, that being the product manager and things like 240 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,160 that, which is interesting. On the other side, James, you 241 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,720 mentioned about larger companies like Google and such. 242 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:46,840 Yeah, I mean, they use contractors right now. 243 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,920 I'm not quite convinced that that will always be the case. 244 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,000 I think I think with where we're at now, it's the struggle for 245 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,720 many companies to get headcounts, you know what they 246 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,480 are and all of this and that. So I think they a lot of 247 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,200 companies that default into using contractors. 248 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:04,200 I think that mindset may change when you also think about 249 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:06,520 fractional TPM. They don't necessarily have to 250 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,160 be a different companies. They could be within different 251 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,960 orgs within the same company and maybe there's an agency or some 252 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,920 some sort of coordination agent that can help sort of do that. 253 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,080 And you know, I mean, TPM's generally by nature, you know, 254 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,120 what portfolios of projects, so we kind of contact switch, but 255 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,280 you know, what about switching between orgs or, you know, 256 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,800 different pillars or, or verticals, I guess in that that 257 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:28,720 way as well. Yeah. 258 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,200 That's interesting. I mean like when you've got, 259 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:35,200 when you've got hundreds, if not in the low thousands for these 260 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,920 like really, really large companies of TPMS, A fractional 261 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,880 that there are probably many, many like fractional TPMS that 262 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,880 are full time employees, but they're fractional within the 263 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,080 company itself across the orgs, which is probably the more 264 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:52,120 common. But we don't think traditionally 265 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,720 think of it like a We wouldn't label that as a fractional TPM, 266 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:00,680 but that could be a definition for what they are, what they 267 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,240 experience and at that scale. Yeah, I was going to give a 268 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,920 funny example of, I mean, this happened more during COVID, but 269 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,040 I guess I don't know if you guys read the news a couple of months 270 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,800 ago, there was this guy in the Bay Area was like basically 271 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,240 working for like 5 or 6 companies at the same time 272 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,920 without letting know, sort of sort of moon moonlighting across 273 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:21,760 all of that. So kind of being fractional. 274 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,080 I don't know how you know it was informal obviously, and kind of 275 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:31,200 not legal or ethical, but. Yeah, there's, you know, we, I 276 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,160 think we all heard about of at least one case of that 277 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:38,240 happening, which I would hope that is not the common method to 278 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,840 not be transparent with, with people you are supporting, with 279 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,360 companies you're supporting. Yeah, it doesn't help us in our 280 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,280 case if you want to work from home, I guess, and building 281 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,520 trust when people and kind of do that. 282 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,600 So which is interesting. So, yeah, going back to I guess 283 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,360 one of the skill sets Michael, you talked about, you know, so 284 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,880 they're earning, earning trust and all of that and, you know, 285 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,920 being there for a partial period of time, you know, the challenge 286 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,360 with doing that. Do you, I guess the flip side of 287 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,320 that, do you see, you see TPMS work in this sort of fractional 288 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:12,520 way? Are they able to build trust in 289 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,560 it in a more rapid pace? Are they able to be more to kind 290 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,880 of adapt to the situation and we should make them sort of build 291 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,360 an interesting skill set in the future if they ever decide to go 292 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,160 back to full time and or how they work with stakeholders? 293 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,880 I think that when coming back to what we discussed before and on 294 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,760 this, like CFO comes, comes in with an executive mandate to do 295 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,080 something. But I think in that one as well 296 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,840 on the skill set, I think what every TPM out there like who is 297 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:39,760 listening to that should also work on this. 298 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,440 The relationship building and the trust building. 299 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:47,880 This is 1 advice that we should give every TPM and I mean we 300 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,200 should not give advices but I think many things are possible 301 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,080 by being a good connector or being a good relationship 302 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,360 builder and trust. Because I think those are the 303 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,960 baselines for influencing thought authority to have an 304 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,839 influence on the road map on have an influence on program 305 00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:09,280 scope and and having an influence on strategy as well. 306 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,680 And the more you double down on that skill, the more I think you 307 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,760 can survive or have success as a fraction TPM, because the faster 308 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,760 you can build trust, so you can build relationship, the more you 309 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,640 can have success in that fractional role, which also for 310 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,440 ACFO, it's quite EFPM metrics. And I think one challenge for a 311 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,840 fraction TPM might be how is your impact measured or how your 312 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,240 outcomes measured. And this is I think that chain 313 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:39,000 of thought where you could like trust relationship influence, 314 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:44,040 program steering, fractional TPM success in having good outcomes 315 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,120 depending on what you're hired for. 316 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,520 Yeah, interesting. So I think of some other 317 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,160 challenges, you know, one of them being time boxing work, 318 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:53,640 right? So I mean, hopefully if you're 319 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,120 kind of if you're new to this sort of space, I mean, you 320 00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:59,200 probably start off with maybe, you know, one and then two 321 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,320 companies or two sort of fractional domains you're 322 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:04,480 working on. And then how do you set clear 323 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,720 boundaries, time box your work? You know, what are the 324 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,440 expectations you set for the company, for the organization? 325 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,360 You want to make sure you kind of set those, you know, there's 326 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:15,880 clear expectations. So what do you, what do you guys 327 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,240 think about, you know, some of the challenges around that and 328 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,120 what advice would you probably give? 329 00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:24,200 I think it's, it's really hard to time box being a TPM 330 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:26,840 throughout throughout an entire week. 331 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:32,680 It's a very dynamic experience. Now if you're the type of TPM 332 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:37,400 that mostly just falls back on reporting what's happening and 333 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,400 you're that kind of channel, let me that's not as much of an 334 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,320 issue. But really like high impact TPMS 335 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,720 are in the trenches with engineering and product and 336 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:55,520 really like connected to what's happening on a daily basis. 337 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:01,400 I haven't seen, I haven't seen a fractional TPM myself, but I 338 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,280 would imagine that there would have to be some daily 339 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:10,160 interaction or at least weekly, right for a fractional TPM to 340 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,720 hope to have impact and be successful. 341 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,920 Because Michael, what what you've already mentioned is like 342 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,080 the trust aspect, the time boxing is one thing. 343 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,320 I think building relationships is probably the the biggest 344 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:27,680 challenge to a fractional TPM idea like if you were to pursue 345 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,640 that, because this time boxing like relationships can't exactly 346 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,800 be time boxed very easily. And so, you know, you mentioned 347 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,320 the word trust and I think about there's a book called The Speed 348 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,560 of Trust by I think Stephen Covey might, I might be wrong 349 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:45,600 there. And it talks about how trust is 350 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:47,480 2 things. It's, it's a display of 351 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,160 competence and character. And those two things enable 352 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,960 people to have those feelings of trust. 353 00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:57,200 So when it comes to a a fractional TPM, displaying 354 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,880 competence in these like time box windows is like you really 355 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,760 have to be on your game. You really have to be able to 356 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:09,080 demonstrate that and communicate it really, really well, as well 357 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,600 as the character of, of being responsive and being, you know, 358 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,840 being true to your word, following up on the things that 359 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:16,080 you said you're going to follow up on. 360 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,160 And so to me like time boxing and relationships are are really 361 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,520 tightly coupled there when it comes to a fractional TPM 362 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,160 experience. One second point to that is 363 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:32,080 also, I think the things that you're working on one thing why 364 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,240 potentially project management specifically in the service and 365 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,000 delivery landscape when you have already an existing product is 366 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,720 successful because you build your consultancy or your your 367 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:46,720 fraction project management or services world on top of it is 368 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,880 you have you work on the on something that is already known 369 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,640 to the public. I would, I do a bad guessing, 370 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,680 but I would, I would guess like greater than 70% of the TPMS are 371 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,760 working on products that are not launched yet. 372 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,360 And let's assume you have fraction TPM that was working 373 00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:06,800 for three companies and you gather a lot of insight. 374 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:11,560 So for a fraction TPM, it's nice because you literally don't only 375 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,680 know not one organization, but you know, two and three 376 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,840 organizations where you can connect the dots on top of it 377 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,040 and you're not allowed to talk about it for sure. 378 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,160 But you start like, what do you, what do your mind sees is 379 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,600 starting to connect it? And if you're like your TPM, 380 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,120 you, you might struggle in starting to differentiate 381 00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:33,080 between your time that you're allocating to certain companies. 382 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,400 And this means that are you hired as a fractional TPM for a 383 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,880 short time, for two months or three months for one company? 384 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:42,840 Or do you serve multiple companies? 385 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,080 I mean, not on the aggressive side that the software engineer 386 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:49,000 did to work for many, like in the dark, but in a steady state, 387 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,040 like you see a lot of intellectual property. 388 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,040 And this is my a little bit tricky I think and hesitation 389 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,320 within organizations that we don't see that many fraction 390 00:21:58,320 --> 00:21:59,680 TPMS at the moment. Yeah. 391 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:06,920 If I were if I were CEO of software company ABC and I had a 392 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:12,480 bucket of strategically important IP confidential or 393 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,560 like sensitive projects and then I had another bucket of like 394 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:21,120 kind of IT related projects. We need to move from this HR 395 00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:25,560 system to this one. We need to implement this kind 396 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,680 of security or compliance control. 397 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:32,160 I I would be very hesitant to take a fractional TPM and put 398 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,960 them in that first bucket of the IP sensitive and strategically 399 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,440 important things and be much more prone to say the other 400 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,960 bucket over here is not as company unique or sensitive. 401 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:49,400 Therefore, I can trust that somebody who's gonna come and go 402 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,400 quickly will be a safe bet. It's low risk, yeah, so. 403 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,840 Probably at least, Yeah, at least probably in the start. 404 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,480 Yeah, the start, that's probably gonna be the case. 405 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,400 I'd say. Well, they have to kind of build 406 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,400 confidence in this whole new paradigm of working as well for 407 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,080 sure. But yeah, intellectual property 408 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,600 is another thing I was going to bring up as well. 409 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,000 So yeah, do. So do you see this as a barrier, 410 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,240 I guess comparing? So if you're a contractor, it's 411 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,080 probably been a similar situation where you may not want 412 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,120 to give everything full disclose as well because there are there 413 00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:21,160 are temporary, temporary workers as well. 414 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,160 So yeah, might there might be another sort of barrier with 415 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:25,320 that. I'd say. 416 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:26,920 Yeah. I mean, conflict of interest is 417 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:28,320 probably another one I was thinking of, right. 418 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,080 Well, you know, you could be working at different companies 419 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,720 and they could be competing companies or they could be 420 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,160 something where there's, you know, you being in two places 421 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,440 and working there. I pose a conflict. 422 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:46,440 Yeah, being a fractional TPATPM for open AI while also being 423 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,600 ATPM for Google, Google's Gemini team probably is a no go. 424 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,920 That's just something they would not hire on that fractional TPM. 425 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,560 I wouldn't mind being a fractional TPM and Meta if the 426 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,840 in our AI sort of, you know, if that's what they're paying, even 427 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,080 taking a fraction of that for me would would be good. 428 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,200 Yeah, that would be pretty interesting. 429 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,520 Yeah. Well, Speaking of, of, you know, 430 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,560 getting paid, I mean these, I mean, let's let's assume then 431 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:16,880 that this does gain more, more momentum from a, from a TPM 432 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,520 perspective. Do you think this would be a 433 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,800 lucrative proposition both financially as well as career 434 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:27,240 investment or do you see this as kind of like not really being 435 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,080 that? Michael, I'll let you jump in 436 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,400 there first. Yeah, but not I think it should 437 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,200 be equally paid on what would everyone earn? 438 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,320 I want to bring a different flavor to it because there's 439 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,240 many might know, you know, I'm originally from Germany and in 440 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,760 Europe like you, you have, I think Netherlands has the 441 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,480 biggest percentage of people who work part time and also Germany 442 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,480 is high rate, US is much lower compared to that. 443 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,880 And if you blend that, then part time workers also like have the 444 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:59,120 equal salary pay and I see the similar similarity there too. 445 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,840 Also like fracture TPMS, I think you could have your hourly rates 446 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:08,560 and the challenge on it's hard to draw a number because you 447 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,280 similar to when you offer consulting services, you can 448 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,720 potentially earn way more than this voice. 449 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,320 Back to the question, what is your speciality? 450 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,000 What is the problem of the company that you as a fraction 451 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,760 of TPM could solve? And I see it also that 452 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,720 potentially as an option when people are working part time or 453 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,720 want to work part time for certain circumstances or want to 454 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,760 take step back or coming back from something and so forth. 455 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,200 It could be an opportunity to also have what do you call a 456 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,240 fraction of this piece? What are equal TPM works on it. 457 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:43,240 I see that you can at least like needs to get the equal what you 458 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,440 do, but many are very secretive on on what people are earning. 459 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,160 But I would go equal on that. And then it's also hard that if 460 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,800 you caught up an hourly rate, are you going into a competition 461 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,960 with other fraction of TPM? So you have this this bidding 462 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,880 that you have for consultancy services where you know, 463 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,160 spending them more time of your fraction of TPM services that 464 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,800 you want to offer on programs by competing then into RFPs or like 465 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,880 contract negotiations. I think there's also a downside 466 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,120 to that when negotiating to it. So if you could go equal would 467 00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:18,320 be would be good, but you also go a higher risk potentially. 468 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,720 So you you might charge a little bit more than someone would earn 469 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:23,640 on average as ATPM. Yeah. 470 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,640 I think the challenges for the last few years, you know, we've 471 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,840 seen companies have this RTO sort of push, right, you know, 472 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,120 about the sort of period of time where everyone's working 473 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,200 remotely during COVID and things like that. 474 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,400 And now it's sort of gone backwards where people are 475 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,760 expecting. So to be back in company three 476 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:42,880 days a week, five days a week and all that. 477 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:48,120 And so when you look at as sort of the part time TPMS, you know, 478 00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:51,320 by nature, those folks aren't supposed to don't expect to come 479 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,080 to the office. You're going to go one day a 480 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,720 week to this company, another day a week, that company most 481 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:57,200 likely all you'll be fully remoted. 482 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,920 And if, if you're in that space, I, I see this is also being a 483 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,400 very highly competitive space where you're going to compete 484 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,000 with folks across the country, like your work remotely across 485 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,960 the world, right? So you might might be focusing 486 00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:10,840 in Southeast Asia and places like that. 487 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:15,320 And so it might be, you know, a race to the bottom as far as 488 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,160 dollars and salaries. If you talk about non critical 489 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:23,520 or non intellectual a high intellectual property stuff, 490 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,800 then that's probably something someone can do remotely and 491 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,560 maybe even a different continent. 492 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,080 So that poses a challenge as well, I guess, to the viability 493 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:37,080 of fractional TPM, I think. A wild idea could be you offer a 494 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,120 subscription service. So let's say like very, so like 495 00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:41,920 you, I don't know, like if there's a website out there, you 496 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,360 go there and you say like I'm, I'm messy and I'm putting 40 497 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,080 hours in there and people can subscribe to me. 498 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:53,920 You can see a monthly retainer and similar to what you're doing 499 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,240 coaching, though, you can book coaching hours or you can do 500 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,600 that so people know what they're getting and they book you. 501 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,080 And they can also do that on a subscription base like, you 502 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,040 know, like like Zipcar or what you can order on Amazon and all 503 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,040 those kind of things. It would be a very like 504 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,520 transparent concept of offering fractional TPM services. 505 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:12,880 Actually, I don't think you're way off. 506 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,040 I mean, I've read roles where they do that. 507 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,280 It's not actually per hour. It actually you buy like 8 hours 508 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,320 a month or or 15 hours a month. It's a high rate, but but do 509 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,800 that, yeah. Yeah, I've got a friend, He, 510 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,240 he's a software engineer working in the healthcare space who has 511 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,360 that kind of model where it's, he's got a few companies he's a 512 00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:37,080 fractional engineer for and they basically bill for a A tier, 513 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:38,920 right. And it's working well. 514 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,720 I, I think TPMS though have to be really cautious about the 515 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:47,760 financial viability of it. The skills of a TPM just, if 516 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,280 you're, if you're trying to sell yourself as a fractional TPM to 517 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,000 drive programs, and that's a lot of people have that skill in the 518 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,400 TPM world. And so I, I don't know if it's, 519 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,720 it's, there's enough value add to say, let's take the risk of 520 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,560 having this person be a fractional TPM as well. 521 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,600 I think it comes down to like being very, very specific in 522 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,960 your domain of expertise. And so even at that point, 523 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:16,720 though, I don't know if somebody was a, you know, a an AI expert, 524 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:21,440 like being able to stand up AI systems models, get them, 525 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,160 getting them trained, getting them deployed with features. 526 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,600 I don't think that person necessarily markets themselves 527 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,880 as a TPM either because they have this domain expertise. 528 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,560 I think the the highest chance of fractional TPM being 529 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,480 lucrative going back to your question is, is looking at those 530 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,120 mid sized organizations and saying I have the leadership 531 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:48,800 skills, the management skills to start this practice and to scale 532 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,240 it quickly and have an impact quickly. 533 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,720 I think that's probably the most feasible financial financially 534 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,960 viable route for a fractional TPM experience. 535 00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:03,320 Is, is that fractional TPM leader in fact and not not so 536 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:08,080 much the ICTPM route, Not quite convinced that that that has a 537 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,840 long runway for anybody. I just haven't seen it that 538 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:12,800 much. Yeah. 539 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,440 What, what, what about meant, you know, coming in in a sort of 540 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,560 consulting. What approach mentoring, right. 541 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,520 So you might have engineering managers or some project manager 542 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,280 or someone else basically for you, you're building out the 543 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,880 processes saying, OK, this is a good way sort of build up the 544 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,200 process structure. Jira this that flows mentor 545 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,640 junior Yeah. And this will probably be a 546 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,760 short, you know, sort of defined period of time necessarily like, 547 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,520 you know, perpetuity, but maybe for like a month or two months 548 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,720 or something like that. You know, it's temporary sort 549 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,760 of, you know, that's all that I know. 550 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:47,080 What do you what do you think about that? 551 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,320 Too near as difficult. I mean, I don't want to like 552 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,640 destroy dreams, but I believe you need to be more or less a 553 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:57,120 seasoned TPM to do correct? Yeah, because you bring certain 554 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,400 expertise, methodologies, frameworks to ramp up very 555 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,720 quickly into that. And if you're on boarding 556 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,440 timeless consuming the bill of the customer, which is your 557 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,160 company, you TPM ING them for and it might be very hard to 558 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,480 testify your outcomes and your metrics at the end of the day. 559 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,600 Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good way to say it. 560 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:16,880 Yeah, yeah. I mean, it may not be as 561 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,880 tangible as an engineer, we can kind of value the outcome and 562 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,760 say it's just this, this does that sort of, you know, you sort 563 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,880 of work in the shadows as the sort of dark art of being a TPM 564 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,960 in that sense. But yeah, OK. 565 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:30,960 Well, I don't know. Do you guys have any other 566 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,240 thoughts, final parting thoughts on on this space? 567 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,160 You know, maybe you might revisit this in a year or a 568 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,560 couple of years and see where it is, but I don't any any, any 569 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,240 parting thoughts from you guys. To your call to actions or we, 570 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:48,400 we have theoretically zoft around a lot today and I think 571 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,760 you have a clear picture on what it could be, what it should be. 572 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,480 Would it not be if there are fraction TPMS out there? 573 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,960 I think like every one of us three would agree to invite one 574 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,760 of them back to this podcast and talk real use cases that I would 575 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,920 be very interested into this. Yeah, definitely. 576 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:09,680 I had somebody reach out after the blog post that I, I, I 577 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,880 posted out a few months ago and they were trying to get into 578 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,240 space and I think they're negotiating with a company and 579 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,400 I'm not working for salary reasons, I guess. 580 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,880 So there's a misalignment on expectations of, you know, of 581 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,320 what the value is. But yes, the folks there 582 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,160 successfully on on this route path, please come on the show. 583 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,720 We'd love to sort of sort of dive in and see how how how it 584 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,800 works for you and provide some tips and advice for everyone 585 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,680 else. Absolutely fantastic. 586 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,520 Yeah, yeah. Any James, any parting thoughts 587 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,280 from you? Nothing, nothing out of the 588 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:45,920 ordinary from what we've already talked about. 589 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:50,000 I think my thoughts on the topic are summarized by just saying 590 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,360 like I see TPM work as fractional TPMS would be really, 591 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,800 really hard. In my opinion, TPM leadership 592 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,560 and establishing the practice is, is the thing to aim for. 593 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,840 If I think somebody's interested in fractional TPM ING. 594 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,880 I think anything outside of that is, is a really big uphill 595 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,520 battle or you're just smarter than me and you found a better 596 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,040 way to do it. So that is 100% feasible. 597 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,080 Yeah, so don't be like that guy. That was through moonlighting 598 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,120 for five or six companies though, so that's not. 599 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,320 Don't be that guy. All right, folks. 600 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,600 Well, thank you very much and welcome back to our series now. 601 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,720 So looking forward to our monthly series again. 602 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,000 And yeah, back to work, I guess for all of us, you know, from 603 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:36,160 our summer break and, you know, hopefully we'll see each other 604 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,040 very soon and with a new and exciting topic. 605 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:40,160 Awesome. Thanks, Jordan. 606 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:41,760 Thanks. Guys, thanks everyone.