Welcome to another episode of TPM Ridge, the podcast where we
bring in industry leaders in technical program management to
share their insights, experiences, and the lessons
they've learned on the front lines of the TPM movement.
I'm your host, Doran Katz, and each week we dive in deep into
the methodologies, mindsets and tools that will empower you to
drive excellence in technical program management.
Whether you're new to TPM or looking to take your skills to
the next level, this podcast is your go to resource for
transforming TPM principles into real world success.
Welcome everyone to our post summer or full episode of TPM
Ridge. It's been a little bit of a
break. We've all taken some time off to
recharge our batteries and we're we're back here and today's
topic is going to be really interesting.
We're going to be talking about fractional TPM Ings.
You know, we've sort of heard of fractional sort of executive
work and you know, things that sort of been gaining momentum.
But you know, basically it's the essentially it's a part time
contract based role where you kind of split your time across
multiple teams, products and even companies.
So it's sort of like we work a program management as somebody
quit once. So this is a very, it's becoming
a interesting space where startups and even larger firms
are trying to do more with less. So without having to pay for a
full time headcount, especially these days with AI and all of
that stuff that's happening. This is sort of a new sort of
gig economy style flex work. So it's a great topic to discuss
with me. I've got Michael Goetz and James
De Huff. Welcome guys.
Hi, I'm happy to be here. Thanks, Jordan.
Yeah, happy to be here. Back to school, as my kid would
say. Yes, it's, I don't know when
it's interesting, different parts of the country people
start different times. So for me, my kids started last
week. I don't know James in Texas.
When do you guys start? I think a bit earlier, right?
Yeah, 2 two out of my 3 kids are in school.
They started two weeks ago and it has changed the the home
dynamic, yeah. Yeah, New York was started this
week, so all good. Yeah.
So it's interesting, interesting.
I think the the colder climate places start later, I think
because it has to do with the Christmas winter snow closures
and stuff like that. I'm I'm guessing I don't know.
But anyway, back to topic here. So we, so fractional has been a
really interesting topic because Michael, you, you, you posted up
an interesting stat where you know, here in the US 25% of
companies, maybe up to 35% are currently utilizing fractional
executives, which is, you know, I'm really surprised by that
number. And it'll probably end up going
up a bit more. And you know, it's mostly been
around CFOSCMOS and CTO's, but we're starting to see some
program project management folks, you know, sort of come.
So what do you, yeah, what do you guys think about this trend
and what are you guys seeing in your insights?
Yeah. I was looking up the number and
then I think even interesting like on one of our favorite
websites, LinkedIn is also that the term or the search from
fractional also sort from 2000 to like 140,000 in 2022 and
2024. And the question is, is it like
also COVID related? One thing that I would be also
should discuss in the in the course of that as what does
fractional even mean for impact? And is, is it really a trend or
is it a necessity in the first step?
And maybe, James, you have the first stance on what it means,
TPM working as fractional TPMS or in a fractional role?
Yeah, it's a really interesting concept because a lot of TPMS,
when they thrive in organizations, it's, it's
because they they know how to navigate complex organizational
hierarchies and they can get things moving really quickly,
right. So working in a fractional
capacity, I think it would look a lot like there's a very
specific problem that the company would need to be solved,
right. This isn't a general TPM that
just that knows program management.
This would be a TPM. This fractional TPM would really
be a value when they know a really specific domain and are
able to add value in that very, very niche area.
And so that's, that's one way I think the most common way I
could imagine seeing a fractional TPM be deployed and
and used effectively, you know, that'd be part time commitment
on behalf of that TPM to share that niche expertise.
Do you see that as sort of similar to a contract, just a
general contract role where you kind of come in with a
specialized set of skills for that specific domain and purpose
only? This is sort of where you're
split across different companies and things like that?
Yeah, I can. Yeah, when you, when you talk
about skills, I think when let's, if we put ourself in
being in fractional TPM. So let's, let's forget at the
moment about our corporate shop and does it like you're starting
on Monday as fraction TPM for a company, you're right there and
you lose 1. And we talked last year in the
summit as well a lot about like impact and a lot about like
influencing without authority which skills do what.
I fear a little bit of fractured TPM Excel were DPM's who are
deeply in the organization as shame said or embedded into it
and build relationship have trust.
But it's just like you are arriving and which skill set are
you leaving behind or need to leave behind or can never excel
in because you don't have an opportunity because you are
perceived as and I would throw like very two very provocative
words into it, like as outsider or even are you hired as
firefighter? And I mean, this would be one
thing. And I think like the biggest
thing that you lose is literally the influence without authority.
And as in fraction 2:00 PM doing it longer as a Third Point, I
think it can become mentally quite cumbersome to always build
new relationships, like never having a steady state, but
always like going into an organization and never know what
to expect. It's interesting.
Yeah, do you. So I guess when you compare it
to other roles that, you know, do fractional like, you know,
like CF OS and other executive roles, they come in with
authority, obviously. So it's not a matter of the
trust, but you sort of have that that authority that mandates I
was just doing. But on the other, on the flip
side, you have engineers who also come in, you know, sort of
fractionally. And for them it's probably been
harder to do context switching. I would say they don't have
they're not working towards earning authority either.
So they maybe presume would lack that motivation.
So I just don't know what your thoughts are on.
So there's different role comparisons, you know, for TPMS
versus others. Yeah, I would think that like
with the TPM specifically being fractional, I have a hard time
with that thinking about an ICTPM being fractional.
To me that sounds like a contract project manager that
can dedicate time to a smaller project.
If there are truly strategically important things that a company
needs to deliver on, I don't think they're very incentivized
to have a fractional non member of the company jump into that.
And so the way I, my mind kind of thinks about it is like, OK,
let's let's consider maybe the size of the companies, right?
If you look at startups and small companies, they may lean
into that, they may lean into a fractional TPM.
But what also may happen is that somebody else with a, a
different role in the company may become that fractional TPM
by doing those activities that a TPM would do to get things
across the finish line. Because in startups, outcomes
trump everything else, right? And, and the, the Gray area of
roles is a lot higher than when you get to the scale of like
Google, where role definition is very, very strict and there's a
lot less flexibility within a role to do different types of
things. So I think if you look at
company size startups, A fractional TPM might just be
somebody informally doing it internally or yes, there may be
like the company might not exist in three months if we don't get
somebody in here to drive this thing forward and help us get
organized, right? So it would be like what you
said, firefighting, right? On the other hand, if you look
at like mid size companies, this is really an interesting sweet
spot for TPMS And that I think this is where companies they
they have a little bit more security in their, in their road
map and their longevity and their confidence and existing
beyond three months, right? I think at this point a lot of
companies they start to see that they need a function like a TPM
function to help them scale the way they execute strategic
initiatives. And so that point, I think if
fractional TPM is not an ICTPM where they bring somebody in and
they say go execute on this initiative, I think at that
point it you become, you would start to see more fractional TPM
leaders kind of like a fractional CFO, right?
And helps mature this domain that the, the company may not be
as familiar with. And so this fractional TPM
leader essentially helps accelerate that maturity and
helps establish it a lot faster. And they don't need to be around
for every single initiative throughout the week, but they
need to be available to help consult and to train and to
really like evangelize across the company what it is that the
TPM function and culture adds to the what value they add to the
overall mission of the company. So I think startups and mid size
companies look very, very different when it comes to
fractional TPMS. And then big companies.
I don't see much investment unless there is like a hyper
specialized domain where they just can't find the talent right
either internally or in a full time employee.
It would be, it would surprise me if large companies, you know,
if we go back to like the size of Google, it surprised me if
they hired something like a fractional TPM for a job.
They might hire contractors for short lived programs and
projects, but that would probably be a full time TPM for
a limited number of months or weeks, but not like a fractional
TPM coming in half of the week or like 8 hours split throughout
the five days, whatever it might look like.
So I think that to me, helpful context to look at fractional
TPM ING is through the size of the company and what the needs
are and how they may react to a fractional TPM being involved.
Interesting. It's also quite interesting when
you think about, let's boil it down also to specific examples
on all of that. And when you think about certain
situations where TPM operating and what really came to our mind
at the beginning, we're talking about fraction is like launching
a new product because this can be very encapsulated.
This is like, you know, there's a specific product where people
are anywhere like isolated and they're working on that.
And this could help like making a demand for in fractional TPM
and they can be working like fully autonomously and also
build the relationship for a short amount of of time.
And another thing and most speaking from experience is this
post merger integration because sometimes what is happening when
you do like acquisitions or mergers, then there's always
this balance between a bigger company versus smaller company
or like same size merger. Then one company does have TPS,
the other ones don't. And then you can work as
fraction TPM and it's based on helping integrating it where you
can also bring technical expertise into that place.
And the third one would as well be getting a new technology
because I think out there what we have seen in in many TPMS,
certain TPMS are very specialized on a certain thing
that a new company wants to adopt, but they don't know where
to start. Yeah.
And this could could help that specialized TPMS and during we
had this in a certain particle as well that could like find
their niche in working fractional.
So yeah, you know, I'm this opportunity thinking of for a
fraction that could work, could be an experiment upcoming in the
next 1 1/2 three years. Yeah.
I mean, so it's interesting that one thing you mentioned, James,
was that I took from your from what you said was the tactical
versus strategic sort of TPM, right.
So we talk about the, well, I guess I'll call it the initial
phase of a startup where, you know, maybe you got one round of
funding. And then basically it's all sort
of in firefighting mode, as you said, Michael, to kind of for
the engineers to kind of get to their to the point they need to
get to, to get the funding and then get to the next step step.
And then at that point there, which is the second Phase, I
guess maybe, you know, funding, maybe in that case, they bring a
TPM to kind of clean up the debt, clean up the mess, kind of
restructuring or strategically align what needs to be done, you
know, to get everything towards the next phase, next goal they
want to want to get to as well. I'm so I think that's sort of
intermediary startup phases where TPMS can can certainly
succeed. And nobody really what companies
think of TPMS at the beginning of, you know, when they're first
created, it is released engineers, product manager or
our founders, that being the product manager and things like
that, which is interesting. On the other side, James, you
mentioned about larger companies like Google and such.
Yeah, I mean, they use contractors right now.
I'm not quite convinced that that will always be the case.
I think I think with where we're at now, it's the struggle for
many companies to get headcounts, you know what they
are and all of this and that. So I think they a lot of
companies that default into using contractors.
I think that mindset may change when you also think about
fractional TPM. They don't necessarily have to
be a different companies. They could be within different
orgs within the same company and maybe there's an agency or some
some sort of coordination agent that can help sort of do that.
And you know, I mean, TPM's generally by nature, you know,
what portfolios of projects, so we kind of contact switch, but
you know, what about switching between orgs or, you know,
different pillars or, or verticals, I guess in that that
way as well. Yeah.
That's interesting. I mean like when you've got,
when you've got hundreds, if not in the low thousands for these
like really, really large companies of TPMS, A fractional
that there are probably many, many like fractional TPMS that
are full time employees, but they're fractional within the
company itself across the orgs, which is probably the more
common. But we don't think traditionally
think of it like a We wouldn't label that as a fractional TPM,
but that could be a definition for what they are, what they
experience and at that scale. Yeah, I was going to give a
funny example of, I mean, this happened more during COVID, but
I guess I don't know if you guys read the news a couple of months
ago, there was this guy in the Bay Area was like basically
working for like 5 or 6 companies at the same time
without letting know, sort of sort of moon moonlighting across
all of that. So kind of being fractional.
I don't know how you know it was informal obviously, and kind of
not legal or ethical, but. Yeah, there's, you know, we, I
think we all heard about of at least one case of that
happening, which I would hope that is not the common method to
not be transparent with, with people you are supporting, with
companies you're supporting. Yeah, it doesn't help us in our
case if you want to work from home, I guess, and building
trust when people and kind of do that.
So which is interesting. So, yeah, going back to I guess
one of the skill sets Michael, you talked about, you know, so
they're earning, earning trust and all of that and, you know,
being there for a partial period of time, you know, the challenge
with doing that. Do you, I guess the flip side of
that, do you see, you see TPMS work in this sort of fractional
way? Are they able to build trust in
it in a more rapid pace? Are they able to be more to kind
of adapt to the situation and we should make them sort of build
an interesting skill set in the future if they ever decide to go
back to full time and or how they work with stakeholders?
I think that when coming back to what we discussed before and on
this, like CFO comes, comes in with an executive mandate to do
something. But I think in that one as well
on the skill set, I think what every TPM out there like who is
listening to that should also work on this.
The relationship building and the trust building.
This is 1 advice that we should give every TPM and I mean we
should not give advices but I think many things are possible
by being a good connector or being a good relationship
builder and trust. Because I think those are the
baselines for influencing thought authority to have an
influence on the road map on have an influence on program
scope and and having an influence on strategy as well.
And the more you double down on that skill, the more I think you
can survive or have success as a fraction TPM, because the faster
you can build trust, so you can build relationship, the more you
can have success in that fractional role, which also for
ACFO, it's quite EFPM metrics. And I think one challenge for a
fraction TPM might be how is your impact measured or how your
outcomes measured. And this is I think that chain
of thought where you could like trust relationship influence,
program steering, fractional TPM success in having good outcomes
depending on what you're hired for.
Yeah, interesting. So I think of some other
challenges, you know, one of them being time boxing work,
right? So I mean, hopefully if you're
kind of if you're new to this sort of space, I mean, you
probably start off with maybe, you know, one and then two
companies or two sort of fractional domains you're
working on. And then how do you set clear
boundaries, time box your work? You know, what are the
expectations you set for the company, for the organization?
You want to make sure you kind of set those, you know, there's
clear expectations. So what do you, what do you guys
think about, you know, some of the challenges around that and
what advice would you probably give?
I think it's, it's really hard to time box being a TPM
throughout throughout an entire week.
It's a very dynamic experience. Now if you're the type of TPM
that mostly just falls back on reporting what's happening and
you're that kind of channel, let me that's not as much of an
issue. But really like high impact TPMS
are in the trenches with engineering and product and
really like connected to what's happening on a daily basis.
I haven't seen, I haven't seen a fractional TPM myself, but I
would imagine that there would have to be some daily
interaction or at least weekly, right for a fractional TPM to
hope to have impact and be successful.
Because Michael, what what you've already mentioned is like
the trust aspect, the time boxing is one thing.
I think building relationships is probably the the biggest
challenge to a fractional TPM idea like if you were to pursue
that, because this time boxing like relationships can't exactly
be time boxed very easily. And so, you know, you mentioned
the word trust and I think about there's a book called The Speed
of Trust by I think Stephen Covey might, I might be wrong
there. And it talks about how trust is
2 things. It's, it's a display of
competence and character. And those two things enable
people to have those feelings of trust.
So when it comes to a a fractional TPM, displaying
competence in these like time box windows is like you really
have to be on your game. You really have to be able to
demonstrate that and communicate it really, really well, as well
as the character of, of being responsive and being, you know,
being true to your word, following up on the things that
you said you're going to follow up on.
And so to me like time boxing and relationships are are really
tightly coupled there when it comes to a fractional TPM
experience. One second point to that is
also, I think the things that you're working on one thing why
potentially project management specifically in the service and
delivery landscape when you have already an existing product is
successful because you build your consultancy or your your
fraction project management or services world on top of it is
you have you work on the on something that is already known
to the public. I would, I do a bad guessing,
but I would, I would guess like greater than 70% of the TPMS are
working on products that are not launched yet.
And let's assume you have fraction TPM that was working
for three companies and you gather a lot of insight.
So for a fraction TPM, it's nice because you literally don't only
know not one organization, but you know, two and three
organizations where you can connect the dots on top of it
and you're not allowed to talk about it for sure.
But you start like, what do you, what do your mind sees is
starting to connect it? And if you're like your TPM,
you, you might struggle in starting to differentiate
between your time that you're allocating to certain companies.
And this means that are you hired as a fractional TPM for a
short time, for two months or three months for one company?
Or do you serve multiple companies?
I mean, not on the aggressive side that the software engineer
did to work for many, like in the dark, but in a steady state,
like you see a lot of intellectual property.
And this is my a little bit tricky I think and hesitation
within organizations that we don't see that many fraction
TPMS at the moment. Yeah.
If I were if I were CEO of software company ABC and I had a
bucket of strategically important IP confidential or
like sensitive projects and then I had another bucket of like
kind of IT related projects. We need to move from this HR
system to this one. We need to implement this kind
of security or compliance control.
I I would be very hesitant to take a fractional TPM and put
them in that first bucket of the IP sensitive and strategically
important things and be much more prone to say the other
bucket over here is not as company unique or sensitive.
Therefore, I can trust that somebody who's gonna come and go
quickly will be a safe bet. It's low risk, yeah, so.
Probably at least, Yeah, at least probably in the start.
Yeah, the start, that's probably gonna be the case.
I'd say. Well, they have to kind of build
confidence in this whole new paradigm of working as well for
sure. But yeah, intellectual property
is another thing I was going to bring up as well.
So yeah, do. So do you see this as a barrier,
I guess comparing? So if you're a contractor, it's
probably been a similar situation where you may not want
to give everything full disclose as well because there are there
are temporary, temporary workers as well.
So yeah, might there might be another sort of barrier with
that. I'd say.
Yeah. I mean, conflict of interest is
probably another one I was thinking of, right.
Well, you know, you could be working at different companies
and they could be competing companies or they could be
something where there's, you know, you being in two places
and working there. I pose a conflict.
Yeah, being a fractional TPATPM for open AI while also being
ATPM for Google, Google's Gemini team probably is a no go.
That's just something they would not hire on that fractional TPM.
I wouldn't mind being a fractional TPM and Meta if the
in our AI sort of, you know, if that's what they're paying, even
taking a fraction of that for me would would be good.
Yeah, that would be pretty interesting.
Yeah. Well, Speaking of, of, you know,
getting paid, I mean these, I mean, let's let's assume then
that this does gain more, more momentum from a, from a TPM
perspective. Do you think this would be a
lucrative proposition both financially as well as career
investment or do you see this as kind of like not really being
that? Michael, I'll let you jump in
there first. Yeah, but not I think it should
be equally paid on what would everyone earn?
I want to bring a different flavor to it because there's
many might know, you know, I'm originally from Germany and in
Europe like you, you have, I think Netherlands has the
biggest percentage of people who work part time and also Germany
is high rate, US is much lower compared to that.
And if you blend that, then part time workers also like have the
equal salary pay and I see the similar similarity there too.
Also like fracture TPMS, I think you could have your hourly rates
and the challenge on it's hard to draw a number because you
similar to when you offer consulting services, you can
potentially earn way more than this voice.
Back to the question, what is your speciality?
What is the problem of the company that you as a fraction
of TPM could solve? And I see it also that
potentially as an option when people are working part time or
want to work part time for certain circumstances or want to
take step back or coming back from something and so forth.
It could be an opportunity to also have what do you call a
fraction of this piece? What are equal TPM works on it.
I see that you can at least like needs to get the equal what you
do, but many are very secretive on on what people are earning.
But I would go equal on that. And then it's also hard that if
you caught up an hourly rate, are you going into a competition
with other fraction of TPM? So you have this this bidding
that you have for consultancy services where you know,
spending them more time of your fraction of TPM services that
you want to offer on programs by competing then into RFPs or like
contract negotiations. I think there's also a downside
to that when negotiating to it. So if you could go equal would
be would be good, but you also go a higher risk potentially.
So you you might charge a little bit more than someone would earn
on average as ATPM. Yeah.
I think the challenges for the last few years, you know, we've
seen companies have this RTO sort of push, right, you know,
about the sort of period of time where everyone's working
remotely during COVID and things like that.
And now it's sort of gone backwards where people are
expecting. So to be back in company three
days a week, five days a week and all that.
And so when you look at as sort of the part time TPMS, you know,
by nature, those folks aren't supposed to don't expect to come
to the office. You're going to go one day a
week to this company, another day a week, that company most
likely all you'll be fully remoted.
And if, if you're in that space, I, I see this is also being a
very highly competitive space where you're going to compete
with folks across the country, like your work remotely across
the world, right? So you might might be focusing
in Southeast Asia and places like that.
And so it might be, you know, a race to the bottom as far as
dollars and salaries. If you talk about non critical
or non intellectual a high intellectual property stuff,
then that's probably something someone can do remotely and
maybe even a different continent.
So that poses a challenge as well, I guess, to the viability
of fractional TPM, I think. A wild idea could be you offer a
subscription service. So let's say like very, so like
you, I don't know, like if there's a website out there, you
go there and you say like I'm, I'm messy and I'm putting 40
hours in there and people can subscribe to me.
You can see a monthly retainer and similar to what you're doing
coaching, though, you can book coaching hours or you can do
that so people know what they're getting and they book you.
And they can also do that on a subscription base like, you
know, like like Zipcar or what you can order on Amazon and all
those kind of things. It would be a very like
transparent concept of offering fractional TPM services.
Actually, I don't think you're way off.
I mean, I've read roles where they do that.
It's not actually per hour. It actually you buy like 8 hours
a month or or 15 hours a month. It's a high rate, but but do
that, yeah. Yeah, I've got a friend, He,
he's a software engineer working in the healthcare space who has
that kind of model where it's, he's got a few companies he's a
fractional engineer for and they basically bill for a A tier,
right. And it's working well.
I, I think TPMS though have to be really cautious about the
financial viability of it. The skills of a TPM just, if
you're, if you're trying to sell yourself as a fractional TPM to
drive programs, and that's a lot of people have that skill in the
TPM world. And so I, I don't know if it's,
it's, there's enough value add to say, let's take the risk of
having this person be a fractional TPM as well.
I think it comes down to like being very, very specific in
your domain of expertise. And so even at that point,
though, I don't know if somebody was a, you know, a an AI expert,
like being able to stand up AI systems models, get them,
getting them trained, getting them deployed with features.
I don't think that person necessarily markets themselves
as a TPM either because they have this domain expertise.
I think the the highest chance of fractional TPM being
lucrative going back to your question is, is looking at those
mid sized organizations and saying I have the leadership
skills, the management skills to start this practice and to scale
it quickly and have an impact quickly.
I think that's probably the most feasible financial financially
viable route for a fractional TPM experience.
Is, is that fractional TPM leader in fact and not not so
much the ICTPM route, Not quite convinced that that that has a
long runway for anybody. I just haven't seen it that
much. Yeah.
What, what, what about meant, you know, coming in in a sort of
consulting. What approach mentoring, right.
So you might have engineering managers or some project manager
or someone else basically for you, you're building out the
processes saying, OK, this is a good way sort of build up the
process structure. Jira this that flows mentor
junior Yeah. And this will probably be a
short, you know, sort of defined period of time necessarily like,
you know, perpetuity, but maybe for like a month or two months
or something like that. You know, it's temporary sort
of, you know, that's all that I know.
What do you what do you think about that?
Too near as difficult. I mean, I don't want to like
destroy dreams, but I believe you need to be more or less a
seasoned TPM to do correct? Yeah, because you bring certain
expertise, methodologies, frameworks to ramp up very
quickly into that. And if you're on boarding
timeless consuming the bill of the customer, which is your
company, you TPM ING them for and it might be very hard to
testify your outcomes and your metrics at the end of the day.
Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good way to say it.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it may not be as
tangible as an engineer, we can kind of value the outcome and
say it's just this, this does that sort of, you know, you sort
of work in the shadows as the sort of dark art of being a TPM
in that sense. But yeah, OK.
Well, I don't know. Do you guys have any other
thoughts, final parting thoughts on on this space?
You know, maybe you might revisit this in a year or a
couple of years and see where it is, but I don't any any, any
parting thoughts from you guys. To your call to actions or we,
we have theoretically zoft around a lot today and I think
you have a clear picture on what it could be, what it should be.
Would it not be if there are fraction TPMS out there?
I think like every one of us three would agree to invite one
of them back to this podcast and talk real use cases that I would
be very interested into this. Yeah, definitely.
I had somebody reach out after the blog post that I, I, I
posted out a few months ago and they were trying to get into
space and I think they're negotiating with a company and
I'm not working for salary reasons, I guess.
So there's a misalignment on expectations of, you know, of
what the value is. But yes, the folks there
successfully on on this route path, please come on the show.
We'd love to sort of sort of dive in and see how how how it
works for you and provide some tips and advice for everyone
else. Absolutely fantastic.
Yeah, yeah. Any James, any parting thoughts
from you? Nothing, nothing out of the
ordinary from what we've already talked about.
I think my thoughts on the topic are summarized by just saying
like I see TPM work as fractional TPMS would be really,
really hard. In my opinion, TPM leadership
and establishing the practice is, is the thing to aim for.
If I think somebody's interested in fractional TPM ING.
I think anything outside of that is, is a really big uphill
battle or you're just smarter than me and you found a better
way to do it. So that is 100% feasible.
Yeah, so don't be like that guy. That was through moonlighting
for five or six companies though, so that's not.
Don't be that guy. All right, folks.
Well, thank you very much and welcome back to our series now.
So looking forward to our monthly series again.
And yeah, back to work, I guess for all of us, you know, from
our summer break and, you know, hopefully we'll see each other
very soon and with a new and exciting topic.
Awesome. Thanks, Jordan.
Thanks. Guys, thanks everyone.