1 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,760 Welcome to another episode of TPM Ridge, the podcast where we 2 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,680 bring in industry leaders in technical program management to 3 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,680 share their insights, experiences, and the lessons 4 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:21,280 they've learned on the front lines of the TPM movement. 5 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,880 I'm your host, Darren Katz, and each week we dive in deep into 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,280 the methodologies, mindsets, and tools that will empower you to 7 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,000 drive excellence in technical program management. 8 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,200 Whether you're new to TPM or looking to take your skills to 9 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,440 the next level, this podcast is your go to resource for 10 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,160 transforming TPM principles into real world success. 11 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,320 Welcome to another episode of TPM Ridge where we unpack the 12 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,400 nuts and bolts of tech leadership, program strategy, 13 00:00:52,480 --> 00:00:54,400 and the art of making things happen. 14 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,560 So today we're diving into something that every technical 15 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,280 program manager, whether you you have battle scars that are fresh 16 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,000 or decades old, needs to master. And that's the interview 17 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,000 process. It's a really exciting topic, so 18 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,800 I'm excited about this. The panel here is as well. 19 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,160 So the job market, in case you've been wandering or been 20 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,960 living under a rock is quite, it's been quite in flux the last 21 00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:17,080 couple of years. We've seen waves of layoffs 22 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,760 during freezes in many verticals and fierce competition in in 23 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:23,480 others. And you know, at the same time 24 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,360 as we've kind of moved on from COVID, we have AI and automation 25 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,480 that are reshaping what must have skills means. 26 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,120 So roles at once seem to be stable under pressure. 27 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,440 Roles that combine technical fluency and human leadership are 28 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:39,840 now being prioritized. Getting off first. 29 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:41,720 The TPM isn't just about what you know. 30 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,640 It's about how you package what you know, what you do, how you 31 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,080 tell your story, and how you stand out in a crowd. 32 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,080 Noisy candidate and noisy candidate. 33 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:54,000 Pretty much today's episodes. For anyone who's facing the next 34 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,080 round of interviews or wants to level up, we'll unpack what 35 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,760 interviewers really care about, how to craft stories from mess, 36 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,600 which technical gaps, and let's chat a bit about our experience 37 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,800 as well. Today on my panel, our panel, we 38 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:12,920 have James de Half and Michael Gutz, who's been Yeah, we are 39 00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:14,840 regular panelists. So welcome guys. 40 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,400 Thanks for jumping on. OK, let's. 41 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,600 Happy to be here. Yeah, Yeah, a little bit of lag 42 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:23,400 here. Let's let's kick things off. 43 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,560 Let's zoom out a bit and let's talk about the anatomy of the 44 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,320 TPM interview and what hidden skills are hiring teams secretly 45 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:32,960 testing. So, you know, we can talk about, 46 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:37,040 you know, program execution, system design, behavioral 47 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:38,960 questions, metric based questions. 48 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,040 I don't know, let's let's open this up. 49 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:42,840 What's up top of mind for you guys and. 50 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,280 Let's start with an icebreaker. Yeah. 51 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,240 Do you still know how many interviews you have done in your 52 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,680 career? I think I lost track on that, 53 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:52,240 but it would be an interesting suggestion. 54 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,640 It's. Been a while. 55 00:02:54,640 --> 00:02:55,560 Dozens. Yeah. 56 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:56,240 Dozens. OK. 57 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,680 Yeah. 4 digit at least. Yeah, yeah. 58 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:01,720 Yeah, yeah. What about you, Michael? 59 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:05,200 Yeah, I don't know, like I think for four digit depending on how 60 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:09,440 you count like CB scanning or like real interviews or like 61 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,600 what we also like to discuss today about system design 62 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,480 interviews, life challenges, how you combine them, I think. 63 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,520 Yeah, You know, I could probably even say for some companies and 64 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,240 some interview processes are some so crazy that I probably 65 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,120 lost count of how many I've interviewed with that specific 66 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,640 company for that specific role. Like Google for example. 67 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:28,880 I don't know if you guys have a interviewing at Google, but it's 68 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,640 probably about 20 different interviews and over the span of 69 00:03:32,640 --> 00:03:35,400 months. So it's, so it's interesting. 70 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,760 I think an, an interesting point to to maybe start with that, 71 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,720 that we've discussed before is just like how much interviewing 72 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,560 has changed, even if you just look five years ago, right? 73 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,600 There's two big things in my mind that have totally reshaped 74 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,960 how interviews are handled and kind of the expectations with 75 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,200 them. And the first thing would be 76 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,160 the, the global pandemic of COVID that totally transformed 77 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:05,360 expectations and how interviews were either temporarily or how 78 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,400 they've forever changed interviews. 79 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:12,440 And then also the advent of AI and how you can use AI to 80 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,480 prepare really, really effectively. 81 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:19,040 But also I, I think we have all been in situations where 82 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,400 somebody on the other side of the table, an interviewee is 83 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:29,720 very obviously using AI and it does not sit well with most 84 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,680 interviewers, especially when it's like a behavioral thing, 85 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:34,120 right? There may be different 86 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:38,000 expectations set if it's like a vibe coding interview for 87 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,000 different roles, but for behavioral interviews, I've seen 88 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:45,120 it used and it just doesn't land very well. 89 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,560 And so I think it'd be interesting to maybe we can 90 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,880 start in that direction of those two big events and how they've 91 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,160 changed interviews as we know it and kind of what to do about 92 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:55,840 that. I can take a first pass. 93 00:04:55,840 --> 00:04:59,440 So I think what always has been, there have been forums like 94 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:04,000 Reddit or any gazillion forums that explain to you how you pass 95 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,000 a Google interview or an Amazon interview. 96 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,760 I think AI made it easier to consolidate that information for 97 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,920 your specific case where you can also like put your and how does 98 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,880 it fit and those kind of things and how it changed over COVID. 99 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,960 I think the interesting fact about COVID was as well as many 100 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:24,120 companies in tech have been hiring as crazy and then with 101 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,520 this clear paradigm that you need to do it remote. 102 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,880 Honestly, I'm glad that AI was not so present during COVID 103 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,480 times because otherwise, like I think we would have seen 104 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,360 different tech industry how interviews would would shape out 105 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,640 for the AI. I think my and I agreed to 106 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:41,560 change. It's hard to guess if the person 107 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,000 is using. Sometimes it's very obvious, 108 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,520 sometimes it's not. My biggest advice to that as 109 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:53,240 interviewer is that you need to always make an objective what 110 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,400 you get out of the interview. So let's take an example. 111 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:57,400 Let's say you do a system design interview. 112 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,720 Then for sure the person can answer on that, but it's system 113 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,360 design interview can also be partially and behavior 114 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,440 interview. How is the person addressing the 115 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,280 challenges, the person asking questions back and this where it 116 00:06:09,280 --> 00:06:13,160 gets like really, really obvious that the person can handle very 117 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,160 challenging situations where you put them on the spot and then 118 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:17,640 you expose behavior. A question. 119 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,160 Although the interview is about system design and this makes it 120 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:25,240 very, I think effective that you what we also have also listed 121 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,280 down is like interviews and program execution, stakeholder 122 00:06:28,280 --> 00:06:30,520 management. You I think you need to start in 123 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,720 the face of AI be present in interviews to combine or overlap 124 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,280 this certain kind of interviews or mix like how how they are 125 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,080 like set up. Yeah, I think, you know, there's 126 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,440 a lot of techniques in interviews, like, you know, for 127 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,560 example, using the star, the star method, right, You know, 128 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,040 and I I don't think there's anything wrong if you're 129 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,200 preparing and just putting all your thoughts and notes in in 130 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:53,720 and asking chat Tributi to actually put it into star 131 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:55,880 format. You know, it is your your things 132 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,560 in a structuring that way. That's that's that's one thing. 133 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,320 But I think interviewers, they're looking looking for 134 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,360 cultural fit. And if you're somebody, you 135 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:05,240 know, they're looking for behaviors and things like that 136 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:07,640 to see how you how you react to different situations. 137 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,440 And if you kind of try to synthesize it or try to, to come 138 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,520 up with an answer that that's not yours, you know, I think it 139 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,880 will come out, you know, one way, you know, if it's not, if 140 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,960 it's not personalized enough or some way it feels a bit 141 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:27,360 unauthentic, I feel. So yeah, the pandemic I guess 142 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,800 has, but you know, taking AI aside, you know, interviewing 143 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:36,240 from from home has, has made it easier, I guess to kind of have 144 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,080 notes and things on the side, even if it's not AI generated, I 145 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:40,720 guess. So you kind of have almost like 146 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:42,920 an open book exam type thing, right? 147 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,560 So where AI comes in to me is kind of reminds me of when you 148 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,800 have an open book exam, but instead of actually having that 149 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,960 book next to you, kind of just try copy an exam that that 150 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,160 exists from last year or the year before or something like 151 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:57,520 that. Like something basically trying 152 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:59,800 to do something in real time that to manufacture something in 153 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,040 real time as opposed to just, you know, looking at the notes 154 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:04,240 there. So I think, yeah, there's a 2 155 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,800 interestingly interesting phenomenons, I guess that has 156 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:08,720 sort of come in the last few years. 157 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:09,400 Yeah. What are you? 158 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:11,120 What are your thoughts, James? I guess, yeah. 159 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,720 I think it's interesting, you know, you were mentioning like 160 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:20,120 using AI to prepare, which is such a huge benefit we have now. 161 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,760 Looking back to how I would prepare for interviews prior, it 162 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,280 was fine, but I can prepare a lot faster and more effectively 163 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:31,240 now with AI and the the things that I do are fairly 164 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,640 straightforward. So like you mentioned, you can 165 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,960 use it to help put stories from your career into a star format. 166 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:42,400 And that is so beneficial because I don't know about you 167 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,800 guys, but like I go like month to month and sometimes all those 168 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,600 things that happen in my career and in my job, they start to 169 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,040 mesh together. And it's just like this mushy 170 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:57,680 continual story that I'm like, OK, I got to think really hard 171 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,840 about how to pull out these stories, how to pull out these 172 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:05,840 experiences and make them market myself to the interviewer, 173 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,080 right? So doing that with AI is way 174 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:10,840 better. The way that I've done it in the 175 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:16,000 past is basically like a free flowing brainstorm through like 176 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,440 a voice session with AI, right? Typically I've used ChatGPT and 177 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:24,000 I start the voice session with ChatGPT and I say, Hey, I'm 178 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:29,360 going to talk through a, an experience I had in my career 179 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,760 and I want you to help me craft it into a better story. 180 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,760 Don't make things up that I didn't do just to make me look 181 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:38,640 better. Don't just agree with me, but 182 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,400 help me pull up the elements that will help me do well in 183 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,040 this type of interview. And so then I go in and I just 184 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,000 kind of walk through it, right? No pressure. 185 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,520 I'm not trying to format it. I'm not trying to make it 186 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:50,520 polished. I'm just walking through it, 187 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,880 trying to relay my memory and it's really, really neat. 188 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:58,000 What comes out on the other side is stitched together proposal 189 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,240 that needs a little bit more refining, but it's like, Hey, 190 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,480 this is a this is a good leadership moment that you 191 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,160 should pull from this. Hey, this is a good example of 192 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,680 how you were a communicator and being able to pinpoint those 193 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:12,320 just through story. Like it's not even a story that 194 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,200 I'm saying. It's just like, like I said, 195 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,800 free flowing thought. And then I would take it one 196 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,840 step further with AI as well, is you set up a new session with 197 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,360 the voice enabled and you say you give it all the context for 198 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,520 the interview. You say, here's the job posting, 199 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,720 here's my resume, here's what I think they're going to be asking 200 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:31,520 about. Here's the type of interview. 201 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,440 It's a, maybe it's a communication stakeholder 202 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,080 management interview. Be the interviewer and I'm going 203 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:42,120 to be the interviewee and ask as you ask questions, dive deeper 204 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,760 with one or two more follow-ups and interview me right? 205 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:47,440 And then give me a rating afterwards. 206 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,000 And so if you go through that, it may or may not give you the 207 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,480 exact feedback that you want, but you being able to just 208 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,880 practice getting those words out and having something respond. 209 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:02,640 And then having been able to respond back to something, you 210 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:04,680 get some of those nerves out, right? 211 00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:08,040 The, the nervous jitters of doing an interview because the 212 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,400 last thing you want to do is show up to an interview having 213 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,000 never spoken the words to the questions that they're asking 214 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,880 you, You want to be prepared with like, hey, I've, I've, I've 215 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:18,480 kind of practiced this a little bit. 216 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,520 I know the stories I'm going to tell and, and as I listen to the 217 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,000 questions, I'm going to try and adapt these stories, but I've 218 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,120 done it enough times to where I, I can be adaptable. 219 00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:31,360 I can have an effective narrative to the career and the 220 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:32,720 things that I want to communicate. 221 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,560 So those are two instances that I found really helpful. 222 00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:38,680 I guess just like to summarize, that would be like the finding 223 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:41,920 your stories and then practicing telling your stories. 224 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,720 Those are two use cases of using AI for interviews, interview 225 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,320 prep. That is really, really valuable. 226 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:53,720 And maybe there's an advice for everyone out there, although 227 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:55,480 like you're not interviewing at the moment. 228 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,160 What I always like to do and what I advise my team also to do 229 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,840 is like to maintain and so-called achievement lock. 230 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,320 So I've worked like like every month, like you just write down 231 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,120 this is what I've done. This is maybe the dog attached 232 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:10,800 to it and this has been the impact. 233 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:16,080 And when you come into a situation, then you know, it's 234 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,000 similar to like and your performance like we're like, 235 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,440 everyone starts to think like, what have I done the last 12 236 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:22,720 months? And then you need to scrap it 237 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,360 together. But if you have a consistent 238 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,440 thing of an achievement log in place, then I think like you, 239 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,880 you can do like a very good input that is being delivered to 240 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,080 your preparation for the interview in case you end up in 241 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:37,800 that situation. Like Dorian, what you said, like 242 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,800 the short market is in flux. Yeah, I don't, I have one of 243 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,800 those. I don't call it an achievement 244 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,360 thing. I I call it, I call it my brag 245 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,760 dock. So I get to brag things that I'm 246 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:50,600 doing. It's hard to do that in other 247 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,520 avenues, but when it's just a dock that you use for yourself, 248 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,200 it's really helpful. I love that tip. 249 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:57,160 I don't know. I thought of when you said that. 250 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,200 I thought of Captain's log, you know, Star Trek, you know? 251 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:01,160 Yeah. Yeah, that's. 252 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:04,640 What it sounds like. Yeah. 253 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:06,960 So this is interesting. So I guess when we're looking at 254 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,440 the last couple of years, we talked about, you know, 255 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,600 interviewing from home, you know, remote interviews and 256 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,680 things like that using AI, I guess for TPMS, do you think 257 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:19,880 there have been changes in specifically the types of 258 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,280 interviews that TPMS themselves have faced aside from, you know, 259 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:29,360 pandemic or AI, any, any tooling or environmental changes, I 260 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,160 guess, Yeah. Anything you guys have noticed 261 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,560 that that has changed in the role of TPMS that you know have 262 00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:38,080 been being asked? I've seen one additional 263 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,920 question come in more frequently then this is through like 264 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:45,760 talking to peers and seeing seeing interviews myself is like 265 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,440 just the question of like explain how you use AI for your 266 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,320 own productivity. That's a pretty basic 267 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,240 straightforward question. But I've seen it more often and 268 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:59,640 I think interviewers are becoming more curious about how 269 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,000 it is being leveraged and if this person is forward thinking 270 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,080 and saying how am I adapting to change right? 271 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,200 Well, let's let me ask you that question then. 272 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:11,800 I guess if I were interviewing you. 273 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,520 So how, how do you use, you know, aside from preparing for 274 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:17,480 interviews? You know, how else would you use 275 00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:20,520 AI in the day-to-day life of a TPM man? 276 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:22,160 This is a rabbit hole. Hurry. 277 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:23,840 Are we going to go down this rabbit hole? 278 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,440 I'll give some quick some quick hitters of like ways that I've 279 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:31,760 used it and I've seen net positive. 280 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:33,720 There's a lot of ways that I've experimented with. 281 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,760 Some have been more toil than helpful, but there's been a lot 282 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:39,840 of ways that have been net positive. 283 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,960 So one of the ways, one of the things that we commonly do as 284 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,440 technical program managers is that we write plans, right? 285 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:50,440 We, we need to draft ways to accomplish a thing. 286 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,920 And this usually relies on product management writing up 287 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,520 some type of product requirements or specification. 288 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,760 There's also usually an aspect of engineering coming up with 289 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:07,360 like here's a proposed solution, but neither one of those are 290 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,080 plans for execution, breaking things down into milestones. 291 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,880 So in the past, you'd have to really kind of dig deep on 292 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,840 digesting those documents. You're standing them, probably 293 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,480 talking to, you know, the people who wrote them to really 294 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,360 understand the nuance. And you should still do those 295 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,400 things, but you can accelerate that with using AI. 296 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:33,720 And so by dropping some of those documents in those artefacts and 297 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,920 saying, hey, I need to make a plan for this, you can pretty 298 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,600 reasonably get 80% of the way there. 299 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,720 I would never trust it to make a 100% ready to go execution plan, 300 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:50,600 but you can get 80% there with AI proposing some best practices 301 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,320 of execution. It can identify dependencies 302 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,960 between maybe there's multiple engineering solutions that need 303 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,600 to be implemented for this PRD so it can start to draw some of 304 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,160 these conclusions and these dependencies and propose them in 305 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,040 a plan of how we can think about executing on them. 306 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,840 So like I said, you get 80% there way faster. 307 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,320 And then the last 20% of that is hashing out the nitty gritty 308 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,520 kind of gnarly aspects of it that are much harder to 309 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,080 determine just through an AI trying to understand it. 310 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,440 And so if you can focus on that harder to solve 20%, but have 311 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:31,560 the 80% pretty quickly delivered like your value as a TPM and the 312 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,480 impact you're having just explodes in a good way, a good 313 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,840 explosion. Yeah, I think this might be a 314 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:42,520 topic for like a full episode. Yeah, but I wanna double down 315 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,520 what what you said, James. I think we see. 316 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:50,040 And I have to confess, I asked the question on AI use cases in 317 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:54,400 TPM interviews, like how they applied AI on their daily doing 318 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,840 within the company or outside. Just exactly what you said, 319 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,520 bring up that the other way. What I did with my team, we had 320 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,280 a hack of them last week so that everyone gets four or five hours 321 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,079 hands on in building and use case for TPMS. 322 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:11,520 And one of them was James, what you said, like we used like we 323 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,319 had a a quarterly plan from from a team and what you normally do, 324 00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:18,839 like you go to Jira and then you hack in the app is and buckle it 325 00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:22,760 down. What we did is we used cursor in 326 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,960 order, which is using the Jira MCP server where you can set up 327 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,400 rules and then automatically epics are being generated. 328 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,040 And this is the small thing, saves you so much time. 329 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,960 And coming back to the interviews, This is a very good 330 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:40,320 use case if when you ask that in an interview, you immediately 331 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:44,960 feel that a person has applied AI and not only let it apply to 332 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:46,600 you. And this is where I think like 333 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,440 also strengthen your imposture in, in the, in the interviews 334 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,000 itself, because you then have something new for your Prag log 335 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,640 or captain's log to, to show and you can immediately bring that 336 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,760 to yourself. One interesting question would 337 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:04,280 be how much of these things you should bring in interviews 338 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,960 proactively to the interviewer or are you waiting to be asked 339 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:10,560 for it? I think this is like always 340 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,960 another question that that I want to throw out there. 341 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,320 I had, for instance, certain candidates and they sended me 342 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,880 even before the first interview and, and full it was like a 343 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,240 mirror board where they laid out the full architecture of our 344 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,960 product, which was quite good with being an outsider. 345 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:34,360 And this definitely made the candidates stood out from the 346 00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:37,120 rest of the pack. And this was actually, I think 347 00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:40,640 similar to AI in interviews, like you, I think you shouldn't 348 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,480 send your portfolio to the interviewer or like like do this 349 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:45,440 kind of things, like these aggressive things. 350 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,720 But you should, I think, I think you should like in specific 351 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,160 situations, position yourself with certain things that you 352 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,680 have done which are living on the technology edge at the 353 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:56,480 moment. Wow, that's really cool. 354 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,160 Yeah, I like that MCP example. Yeah, I was. 355 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,240 We're actually playing around with that as well the last few 356 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:09,720 weeks, you know, the jury MCP and, and even as a TPM, you 357 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,640 know, I kind of combined, combined that with code vibing 358 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,960 and pretty much told that my, my terminal tool get this issue, 359 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,680 create a feature branch, look at the requirements, build it. 360 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,440 And for me, I even sort of cut out the engineers, at least for 361 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,280 prototyping or at least get into the first first few phases of 362 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:27,680 development. And I didn't even used to 363 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,920 actually create or flesh out user stories or tickets, 364 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,320 actually add user stories, acceptance criteria and things 365 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:34,800 like that. And they take a first go at it 366 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,120 and then I, you know, help out. The other thing that I've been, 367 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,400 I've been finding for TPMS especially, it's quite useful. 368 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,360 It's not just just as in ChatGPT, but using in a genetic 369 00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:45,360 way. You can actually, there's some 370 00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:47,920 frameworks where you can actually have one agent create, 371 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,440 for example, the quarterly planning and then another agent 372 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,640 act as the editor reviewer. And then you have another agent, 373 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,040 you know, basically this, you can have multiple agents work 374 00:19:56,360 --> 00:19:58,600 together. And that actually I find as has 375 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,320 made did the final output a lot more closer to what you would do 376 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,520 anyway and less, you know, less changes and tweaks. 377 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:10,920 So yeah, that's cool, but. One of the questions that I I've 378 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,120 seen, you know, going back to your original question of, you 379 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,400 know, what do we see that is asked, you know, relates a lot 380 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,560 to the, the remote nature of a lot of companies now, which is 381 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,760 now quickly turning hybrid. And just the, it's not a 382 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:29,400 complicated question, but how do you work across a hybrid team or 383 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,120 a distributed team? And it's not a new question 384 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,240 either. I think this has been asked even 385 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,880 before 2020. But I think it's more common now 386 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,960 to where we have to consider, for example, like communication 387 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,080 strategies for a large initiative. 388 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,640 How do you design that for a hybrid team that may or may not 389 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,160 be in the office or may not, may or may not be in the same office 390 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,320 at all. So that's one that I've seen 391 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,400 creep up as well in in terms of regularity. 392 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,200 Yeah, and you can. Test that quite good. 393 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,320 So so I think we we see a little bit of shift in coming from 394 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,840 COVID where everything was remote and then going into this 395 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:10,920 RTO slash hybrid slash remote setups across the tech industry. 396 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,440 What I as an interviewer and hiring manager always try to do 397 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,800 is at least try to invite the candidate once to the office. 398 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,960 It doesn't need to be this full day of five interviews. 399 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,680 You can also do that, I think very helpful if the challenge 400 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,440 there is that you don't have all the interviewers in the office 401 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:32,840 like a chicken AG problem, but at least invite them to the 402 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:34,520 office. Because with that you can also 403 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,320 test them a little bit on how they would behave if they would 404 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,080 be in the office, because I see a lot when they're getting hired 405 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,880 in the interviews, they the teams are meeting on side at 406 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,400 least like quarterly or for a certain frequency. 407 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,480 How is their behavior inside the office environment and towards 408 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,600 like other colleagues. And then you for sure can get a 409 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,560 peer to quickly interview them. And I think this helps also to 410 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,040 strengthen the decision on candidates. 411 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,640 And this brings this human touch a little bit back to to the 412 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,000 interviews. And I think as an hiring 413 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:07,600 managers gives me so much inside. 414 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,720 If they come to the office and see from 90% of the people, I 415 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,800 would say that you throw them out of their known environment 416 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,040 which is remote for nowadays. But this gives you also a very 417 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,840 indirect thing next to like program execution or system 418 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,040 design. So it's a very deep behavioral 419 00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:26,080 face to face interview. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. 420 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,080 I like that too. I mean, I think, you know, we 421 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,600 talked about how competitive it is, you know, the last year or 422 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,760 two, you know, in terms of the environment, all that. 423 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,120 And I think being there in person, I think for interview as 424 00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:39,720 well, I think it's advantageous to be able to show that personal 425 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,080 touch, to be able to have that, that, you know, show them how 426 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:46,120 you are in, in, in, in location as well. 427 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,080 And I think it gives you momentum as well. 428 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,760 I find doing interviews remotely, especially if they're 429 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,960 spread out over a few days or of a week or two weeks, you kind of 430 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,240 lose momentum. You kind of go in ebbs and 431 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,120 flows, but you don't have that for me at least, I don't have 432 00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:02,840 the consistent sort of performance that that I want to 433 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,360 achieve. I guess, you know, so it's 434 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,400 interesting, Yeah. If do you guys have any? 435 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,000 I don't know. Do you guys have any insights in 436 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,720 terms of, I guess to your expectations between different 437 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:15,960 companies, large companies, small companies? 438 00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:19,680 I guess not recently, but I mean, I don't want to call it 439 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:24,800 out, but I mean, you know, over the last few years, I guess you 440 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,760 know, your last role, the role before and all that. 441 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,960 Any, anything that's that that you've noticed it's been 442 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,320 different or unique that could be helpful, I don't know. 443 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,880 For, I think for, for bigger companies, they have very 444 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,920 structured process and as an interviewer you have clear 445 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,720 guidance on what to do at a certain stage. 446 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:51,200 And as an interviewee, you or applicant you also have a good 447 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,200 expectation level. And I think when you look into 448 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,520 specifically in the AI tech space, how many companies are 449 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,560 being funded and invested, I think they don't have that like 450 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,200 proper process and interviewee, like where as an applicant, you, 451 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,040 you have way more or higher uncertainty that you need to, 452 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,600 that you need to face in that space. 453 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,960 And it could also go like to the extreme that people are getting 454 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:20,600 higher, like sharing their CV directly with some manager and 455 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,520 then going to the office and getting hired straight off, 456 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,000 straight off. I think the challenge is for 457 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,720 smaller companies to find the right talents out there. 458 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,760 And for the applicants. If you say I want to do 459 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,880 something new outside of the big, I heard like Mongo 460 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:42,560 companies is now the new word that you have I think a better 461 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:47,520 chance to also tap into a quicker hiring or getting hired 462 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,040 if you could stand out way more. And for bigger companies, I 463 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:55,400 think the changing the process will take ages to to amend them. 464 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,240 I thought they are like very creative and putting AI into the 465 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,640 interview process. Yeah, I found, I mean, I guess 466 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,000 my anecdote is working at Amazon as part of the interview loop 467 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,280 for for quite a few candidates. And you know, it's quite 468 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,760 structured to have like, you know, their leadership 469 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,760 principles and they kind of expect the candidates kind of 470 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,160 mentioned that or kind of wave that into their answer somehow. 471 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,840 And then you also have you have like a panel and you also have 472 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,720 what they call, I think an interview champion, somebody 473 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,160 who's not part of the org or part of the team who doesn't 474 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:33,280 have a vested interest basically and can veto, veto, you know, 475 00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:36,120 the candidate basically. So that way you can't, you 476 00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:39,160 cannot really just get some enough, you know, that, you 477 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,160 know, a friend of yours to kind of just come on and pass that. 478 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,920 So some are pretty rigid. Some smaller companies guess 479 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,280 like you said they can that there's more flexibility. 480 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,080 I find that it costs a lot more to have hire a bad person and 481 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,640 the first thing it is to it has a big impact on the culture as 482 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,720 well that I've seen go that way. So. 483 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,480 Yeah. It's interesting that you 484 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,160 mentioned that like these big companies, yeah, definitely have 485 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,320 more structure. And then there's two things on 486 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,400 my mind. I remember when I was leaving 487 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,480 Exxon Mobil, which is a huge company, right? 488 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,320 Just massive company, globally distributed. 489 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,240 I was trying to leave Exxon Mobil. 490 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,080 And the consistent theme that I noticed when I was interviewing 491 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,840 places, because most places are smaller than Exxon Mobil, they 492 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,000 would ask questions like how, how would you change the way you 493 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,920 operate knowing that this is a smaller company than what you 494 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,520 were previously in? So they were looking to 495 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,200 understand my own awareness that coming from a big company 496 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,160 typically has more process and that the culture is very 497 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:42,880 different. And they wanted to make sure 498 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:47,920 that there is like a good fit for culture and sense of urgency 499 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,640 because those things are very, very important and almost like a 500 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,680 differentiator a lot more in smaller companies. 501 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,600 And so it's really interesting trying to leave. 502 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,440 I had to be very, I had to become very self aware of what 503 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:06,520 those changes would be like. I'd say the other like really 504 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,880 big difference that I, I have noticed over the years is 505 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,640 smaller companies tend to have a, a less Michael, I think he 506 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,560 said it less a structured approach, right. 507 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:21,040 And as an interviewer that can be as an interviewee, that can 508 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,200 be really hard and you have to be very proactive. 509 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:29,080 And what I mean by that is they may not tell you exactly like 510 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,120 what the content of the interview is or they they may 511 00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:36,320 not be as invested or have as much capacity to set you up 512 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:37,840 with. These are all the things that 513 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,360 we're going to be asking about. These are our expectations. 514 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,960 Here's some resources to help you do your best in the 515 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:44,640 interview. You see that a lot with the 516 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:49,560 companies like Amazon, Microsoft, Google, that they try 517 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,360 to give you things to be successful because they know 518 00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:54,680 they have a pretty rigorous process. 519 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,000 Smaller companies, the interviewee has to be a lot more 520 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,160 proactive and if you don't have some of those details, you have 521 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,120 to find a tactful way to to ask about it, right. 522 00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:09,920 Hey, I noticed I have a couple interviews on this day and there 523 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,800 is a general topic of leadership. 524 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,600 Is there anything specific that you're looking for? 525 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,800 So as I prepare, I can make sure to speak to some of those things 526 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,160 and, and just being able to have those conversations with less 527 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,080 structured interviews is really important and kind of sets you 528 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,160 apart as well. Showing that you're, you're 529 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,000 thinking forward, you want to do your best, you're curious and 530 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,520 you're not afraid to interact a little bit more and and and try 531 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,000 and and, and understand what they need. 532 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:39,560 Yeah, agreed to them. Yeah. 533 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,720 So something I was wondering about, I guess so not 534 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,280 necessarily something that's new as far as new phenomena or 535 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,360 anything like that, but you know, interviewing ATPMI guess 536 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:53,520 so technical, a technical portion, what I guess what are 537 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,200 the expectations you generally think or expect of a TPM, I 538 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,160 guess in terms of depth versus breadth, right? 539 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,280 So how much engineering they need to know? 540 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,000 How technical should they be in various top picks? 541 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,920 And how do you separate a good TPM from a great type TV, I 542 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,360 guess as far as technical depth? Do you guys have any thoughts on 543 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:10,880 that? Yeah. 544 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,520 I think when you you have an open position as an interviewer 545 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,360 and you have a certain interviewer pool or people that 546 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,840 help you hiring, then you need to outline to the peers on what 547 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,800 you're looking for. And this cuts a little bit into 548 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,400 the fact that you always in a bigger company look for 549 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,080 specialization in TPMS and smaller you look for more the 550 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:36,120 general TPM and when you're done to go down into the system 551 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,440 design interview step. And I don't want to expose too 552 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,760 much on how we do interviewing, but if you look into the 553 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,720 challenge, you need to design the challenge in such a way that 554 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,600 you can ask the right question depending on the person as well. 555 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,320 So the person could, if you look at your TPM, then the person 556 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,600 could be strong on the program management side. 557 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,520 And for the technical side, you always as an interior need to 558 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,240 ask the question, is this the right technical depth that a 559 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,360 person brings along? Because you when the person is 560 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,720 more like on the platform side and you might potentially go 561 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,320 down more the route of like database or infrastructure 562 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,600 discussions. Whereas front end where you have 563 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,960 like quicker iterations, you might emphasize more on the 564 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,440 program management side. But I think you need to have 565 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,440 what we do intern, like have a set of Evergreen questions, 566 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,080 those eight questions on our side that you go through on a 567 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,240 technical side that everyone needs specifically to answer. 568 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,160 And then you always get a good sense on where the person 569 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,120 stands. And you need to also have the 570 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,880 flexibility in the interview use to go deeper if you want. 571 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,480 And for an applicant, I think nowadays it's with the 572 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,840 accessibility to, to to information or like newsletters, 573 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,640 like buy, but go like, you can get yourself into a very solid 574 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,200 foundation of what system design means. 575 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:54,000 And what I value most is when they not only bring the concept 576 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,720 of explaining what a load balancer is, but they could also 577 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,760 apply it to an specific example. And this is what I like most, 578 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,760 that it's not only the regular foundation that you have, but 579 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,720 also how you could apply to, to the use case that you're being 580 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:11,760 asked to this and also the the A star is from my point of view 581 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,920 that you can also relate it back to the company's product that 582 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,600 you're interviewing to. In our case, you can always like 583 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,920 very good relate that back to how it might help the company. 584 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,520 So it's threefolded, like foundation, you know what it is 585 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,880 and then apply it to the company that you're owning to. 586 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,080 And this is coming back like AI could also help you with 587 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,200 answering or preparing that question beforehand. 588 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,560 Yeah, good. One thing I would say would that 589 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:45,280 every single TPM should have is under like this is so basic for 590 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,480 the world we live in. If you are a TPM in software and 591 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,360 that's the software development lifecycle. 592 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,680 And so if you're a listener to of this podcast and you don't 593 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,360 fully grasp the software development lifecycle, I think 594 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,640 that's, that's kind of base level before you can even get to 595 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,640 the system design stuff. Because if you don't understand 596 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,080 the software development lifecycle, your ability to 597 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,720 collaborate and to do stakeholder management, create a 598 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,320 communication strategy, all the other things will struggle if 599 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:18,560 you do not know the basics of software development life cycle. 600 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,480 And then like Michael was saying, like beyond that, how 601 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,840 deep do you need to be in system design? 602 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:31,360 Hopefully there's a baseline, but it's usually a, it depends. 603 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:36,280 What is the role call for? Usually you can you can identify 604 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,720 a little bit of that in the job posting of how technical is this 605 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,680 technical program manager role? And don't, don't be afraid even 606 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,280 in like if you make it through the resume, you know, review 607 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,680 process, you're talking to the recruiter or the hiring manager 608 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:58,080 asking the question of, hey, I know this TPM role applies or 609 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,200 works in this domain and like this is what the job description 610 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:02,720 says. Is there anything else you can 611 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,440 tell me about the technical expectations for this role so I 612 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,360 can better prepare and pulling more of that information out 613 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,480 could be helpful? Yeah, if you're lucky. 614 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,560 Yeah, if you're lucky. I have to find a recruiter that 615 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:16,200 I was able to get that information for you. 616 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,840 I think that's that's fantastic. Once again, depends on on the 617 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,520 company depends on on all of that. 618 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,320 So I've been different situations like that, which is 619 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,160 interesting. But yeah, I think it's it's a 620 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,160 really strong point you you bring up about the the life 621 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:32,920 cycle. I think that's sort of the bread 622 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,040 and butter that you should have that understanding, should have 623 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:40,480 that, you know, comprehension, I think first and foremost. 624 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,000 And then you kind of have to look at the job specs and look 625 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,760 at where you are, where is your, you've worked in and things like 626 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:49,160 that. Your, your skills, get your 627 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:54,160 skills wheelhouse, I guess, and all that as well. 628 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,360 So technical aside, I guess I mean, what are, what are other 629 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,440 areas, I guess important for TPMS to be interviewed in like 630 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,240 stakeholder management? And, you know, I guess how do 631 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,800 you demonstrate, you know, that you are able to bring, you know, 632 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:12,440 clarity from chaos or handle, you know, competing priorities 633 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,960 and across team alignment questions and things like that, 634 00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:18,760 You know, leadership without authority, you know, how do you 635 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,199 bring highlight those things, I guess, in your, your work? 636 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,440 I can do a step in to that like more aligning it with the 637 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,000 general like advice. So I think like most interviews, 638 00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:32,280 when you see it through the interviews and everything in 639 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,600 this interview is about communication and talking. 640 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,679 What my advice, for instance, for applicants is as well like 641 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:40,159 no matter like if you want to demonstrate system design 642 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,360 without authority is that you use visuals for that. 643 00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:46,760 And what you can always do in every interview, like if it's on 644 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,199 site, then you can use a whiteboard. 645 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:54,320 Or if it's like remote, then you can also flash like, you know, 646 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,080 some, some online whiteboard without like hunching names. 647 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,200 And no matter if it's like influencing without authority is 648 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:05,320 quite hard to, to touch. But I like this whiteboard and 649 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,520 visual approach because this sticks with the interviewer or 650 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,680 at least with me like very much that people can draw a few 651 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,880 things and how they would do it, how they would structure that, 652 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:16,440 how they would do stakeholder management. 653 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,920 But I think the toughest one that you mentioned, Doran, is 654 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,200 the influencing without authority. 655 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,480 What we internal did is like we asked ourselves after the 656 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,200 interview, have I been influenced? 657 00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:31,000 It's a very simple question is when you spend one hour with a 658 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,240 candidate, let's say on a system design challenge, has the 659 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,440 applicant influenced you because you have authority like you're 660 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,280 the hiring manager and has the person influenced you to in in 661 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,320 any kind of way? And this is where you can 662 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,400 directly after the interview, you can write that down as like 663 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,840 123 bullets. But this gives you a very good 664 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,320 insight. And you can only ask that 665 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,920 question a few minutes after the interview when you still have 666 00:35:56,120 --> 00:36:00,360 the last hour present. I would say sell toughest 122. 667 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:02,920 Sell me this pen, I guess. I don't know. 668 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,960 I really like that question. Has this candidate influenced 669 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:10,160 me? I'll have to use that in the 670 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,160 future. I'll add a little a bit more on 671 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,360 this of like, OK, non-technical, non AI related things. 672 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,720 Like one thing I always try and figure out in an interview is at 673 00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:24,960 what scale has this person worked in terms of 674 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,840 organizational settings? And the reason I really look for 675 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,880 that is sometimes, most of the time in a TPM role, technical 676 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,920 program manager role, it's pretty large scale, right? 677 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,160 Like it's more than five teams, multiple organizations, like 678 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:41,840 there's a lot of stuff to orchestrate. 679 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,520 And sometimes there are are candidates that are trying to 680 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:50,080 get their career to go in that direction and and have had more 681 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,960 experience as a scrum master, for example, with one team. 682 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:59,160 And so while the candidate may be a very, very good scrum 683 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:05,040 master, it's really difficult to assess scale with them if 684 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,520 they've never had that scaled experience, right. 685 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,440 So asking questions around that of tell me about the times 686 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,360 you've worked cross functionally beyond one team. 687 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,960 Tell me about a time you've had to work across multiple 688 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:23,240 organizations, whether it be engineering and legal and 689 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,120 security. Tell me about it. 690 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,240 You know, just trying to push on that fact of like get outside 691 00:37:29,240 --> 00:37:31,560 your own team. And even I've interviewed scrum 692 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,840 masters who have done a lot of that, who have have that cross 693 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,400 functional experience. They happen to be focused on one 694 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:43,520 team, but they start to get into that larger scale coordination. 695 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,280 And I want to mention that because being a scrum master 696 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,520 does not disqualify you from this role. 697 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:53,000 It's a fantastic like prep role for ATPM, but pushing on that, 698 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,240 that concept of scale is really important to me when I do 699 00:37:57,240 --> 00:38:03,800 interviews. What's, what's 1 subtle signal 700 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,720 that tells you that someone will thrive as a TPM? 701 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,440 You know, you mentioned, you know, people are scrum masters 702 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,600 and folks, you know, working different skills. 703 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,160 But is there, is there a subtle signal that comes to mind for 704 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,680 you guys that you can think of? When the interview turns into a 705 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,560 two way discussion, because I strongly believe that the 706 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,720 interview process in itself is always a two way St. and you 707 00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:27,520 need to be aligned with the applicant, applicant with you. 708 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,520 And when an interview turns into a discussion. 709 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,480 That's why I always have 15 minutes booked in my calendar 710 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,000 after each interview. Either like to sum it up or to 711 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:38,480 spend more time with a candidate. 712 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,600 This is a very strong signal and it turns into a discussion. 713 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,200 Yeah, I was going to say something very similar of when 714 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,560 it doesn't feel like an interview anymore or when I, 715 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,000 when I walk away from the interview and I'm like, you 716 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,800 know, the way that they handled that problem and that the way 717 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,760 they structured it, I wonder if that would work with this other 718 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,200 problem we're having over here, right. 719 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,040 Like they're able to share things where it's like, OK, 720 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,800 that's fantastic value add to this. 721 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,160 Domain and you've been influenced, I guess. 722 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,600 I've been influenced. They did it. 723 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,480 What do interviewers wish Canada's would stop doing? 724 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,720 Is there anything you can? I know we talked about AI and 725 00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:19,040 kind of having AAI screen up. Where are you, you know, during 726 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,400 the interview process? Anything else that you think 727 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,240 interviewers wish Canada's would stop doing? 728 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,280 There's one thing that comes to my mind right away that I'll 729 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,840 just jump in and say deductions that are way too long. 730 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,680 That is 1. That is one thing that I I know 731 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,720 interviewer interviewees are excited and maybe a little bit 732 00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:42,200 of nervous, but when an when an interviewee takes 10 minutes to 733 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:48,720 introduce themselves, it's really tough to to move forward. 734 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,080 That's a huge plus one. I would, I would also say that, 735 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:57,080 and if it's like getting in, if candidates tell station, station 736 00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,560 by station or company by company and what they have done. 737 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,720 I think my, my tip for that for, for applicants would be to, to 738 00:40:03,720 --> 00:40:06,480 pick out certain impactful things that you have done. 739 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,680 And how do they fit into, into the job you're interviewing for? 740 00:40:10,720 --> 00:40:14,920 Because it shows the interviewer in itself that you have read the 741 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,680 job description that you have prepared immediately from 742 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,480 minutes here on. And then you can also like be, 743 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,400 let's say, confident enough. And ask the interview like do 744 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,800 you want to know more or do you want a deep dive more? 745 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,760 Because you can assume nowadays that interviewers have read this 746 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:36,880 UV, at least in the preparation. As an interview you should do 747 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,160 that. Yeah, it's a good point. 748 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:41,440 I mean, yeah, I mean, your resume is there. 749 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,360 I mean, you shouldn't just read off, you know, resume anything 750 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,120 like that. For me, I think it's not just 751 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,440 the intro. I think throughout the interview 752 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,000 process, you should answer the questions, you know, sort of 753 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,320 customize it to the questions being asked rather than just 754 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:58,000 sort of being verbose and kind of going through, you know, half 755 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,040 your life story or anything like that. 756 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:05,080 So I think it's being very strategic and scope scopeful, I 757 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:06,440 guess. And scopeful, a word I don't 758 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,960 know. Scoping scopeful, Yeah, you 759 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:13,280 know, it's straining. Yeah, yeah, I, I think, you 760 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:17,360 know, treating it, stop treating interviews like interrogations, 761 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:22,480 which hopefully the interviewer sets that up environment, sets 762 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:24,920 up that environment really well where it doesn't feel like an 763 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,520 interrogation. And, and what does that look 764 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,280 like? Well, the interrogation looks 765 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,520 like an interviewee thinking they just need to say all the 766 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,200 answers and then wait for the next question, say all the 767 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:37,840 answers, wait for the next question. 768 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,480 That that's, that is not the best method. 769 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,200 And Michael, like you mentioned, like when you know, it's it's 770 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,720 going well is when it is a discussion, you know, there's, 771 00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:48,480 there's questions that they come back with, they pause and they 772 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,200 say, OK, I think that that's answered the question, but do 773 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,240 you want to go deeper on that? Because I can. 774 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:58,320 Let's see where this goes. So that would be one thing to 775 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:03,280 make sure to stop doing is stop thinking and having the mindset 776 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:07,280 of this is an interrogation. I can't ask questions, I can't 777 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:11,080 pause because it's not what it should be. 778 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:12,960 Yeah, it's too transactional, I guess. 779 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:14,880 Yeah, transactional would be a good way to say it. 780 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:17,440 OK, well, we're we're, we're at time. 781 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:18,720 Yeah. It's been a great, great 782 00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:21,800 conversation. And, you know, in closing 783 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,520 thoughts here, I'd love to, you know, if there's any advice you 784 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,200 guys can give to the, to our listeners here. 785 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:28,840 You know, it's tough, tough world out there. 786 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,720 And I was very competitive. But in terms of preparing for 787 00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:36,160 interviews, you know, both, you know, or, or trying to the 788 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,600 emotional resilience side of it. And if you have any tips, you 789 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:40,880 know, please share them. What? 790 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,000 What are you guys parting words for you guys for our listeners? 791 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,280 Interviews are tough. They're really tough and they're 792 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,080 not just tough because the person on the other side of the 793 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,160 table wants to give you a bad day or make your life hard. 794 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,760 It's tough just because of like the market that we're in right 795 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:57,880 now. And sometimes you may interview 796 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:02,360 really, really well and that may still not be a good fit for what 797 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,320 that team is looking for specifically. 798 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,400 And so it's really hard. But this is something that I've 799 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,560 tried to do in the past when I've interviewed is, is decouple 800 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,880 my interview performance with the result of the interview. 801 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,880 Now that, that sounds weird, but sometimes if I get feedback from 802 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,960 an interview and I, I seek that, sometimes I'm able to pick a 803 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,400 part like, OK, like these were the things that went really 804 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,560 well. They were looking for domain 805 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:28,960 expertise over here and I don't have that. 806 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,480 And so being able to, to pick myself up again and say, I 807 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:34,240 performed well in that interview. 808 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,960 It was not a match. I wasn't lucky, so I got to keep 809 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,960 looking and that's really hard. My thing is, is one thing like 810 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,640 reach out to peers to help you prepare for the interviews. 811 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:47,880 There's so much great resources out there. 812 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,400 And I think if you open LinkedIn, you can just type in 813 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,480 technical programmers and you find so much people who can help 814 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,120 you. And I will not also take the 815 00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,000 chance like for instance, in this TPM community on slag, 816 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,880 there's like Elena who who drives mock interviews and just 817 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,720 doing a really great job. If you are in this situation. 818 00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:10,440 And I can only recommend to join one of the course touching on 819 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,120 different topics. And I think this also makes you 820 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,880 stronger like when preparing. But you can also when you have 821 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,360 found a job like give back to the community in helping on what 822 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,720 has landed. It's yeah, very profound yes and 823 00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:28,360 thanks for the plug there. So yeah, if you go to TPM events 824 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,480 at org, there's you can get access to a slack. 825 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:35,080 I think this scored as well. So those are great great 826 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,400 feedback and great things for you guys to to take. 827 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,600 Yeah, it is a tough, tough you have to be resilient. 828 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,640 And you know, it's also keep on trying, keep on learning, keep 829 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:44,920 on keep on evolving, right from every interview you learn 830 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,360 something new, you learn to to calibrate and recalibrate. 831 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,600 And you know this many mock interviews as you can, you know, 832 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,560 reach, you know, reach into your peers, your colleagues or ex 833 00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:58,640 colleagues or you know, folks like that. 834 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:00,480 So all right guys, well, thank you. 835 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,320 This has been a very insightful podcast. 836 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,880 All this is enjoy that and we'll look forward to seeing you guys 837 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,840 all next time. And to you guys as well. 838 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,400 Michael and James have a great rest of the month. 839 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,200 Thank you, Doran. Thank you, Michael.