1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,920 We have lots of mini bodies everywhere you can go the 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,880 cricket, the cricket stars, agents, they they behave like 3 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:07,960 Amit Shah. And so you have the same thing 4 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:10,600 in Bollywood, you same have same thing in a business, you know 5 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:12,040 and media behaves in the same manner. 6 00:00:12,040 --> 00:00:15,640 What started with Bollywood and Page 3 has then has infiltrated 7 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,720 all over in every sphere of Indian, Indian public, Indian, 8 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,760 Indian public life and cricket is definitely is definitely not 9 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:25,440 an not an not an exception to do that thing. 10 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,920 Hi, this is Sharda Ogra. Hello, this is Mohammad Assam. 11 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,720 Hi, this is Pradeep Magazine. Welcome to the PCCI podcast. 12 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:56,800 Today's gold, the next bowl. The dream is diminished for 13 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,000 Carlos. Cricket in the subcontinent has 14 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,160 never just been sport. It has always carried trauma, 15 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,680 identity, power and at crucial moments, diplomacy. 16 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,480 Matches here are about who we are, who we fear and how we see 17 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,160 our neighbors. Today, Bangladesh has been 18 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,280 booted out of the T20 World Cup. Indian fans are gloating across 19 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,040 social media. The BCCI, more powerful than 20 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,320 ever, has been shaping the modern game in its image. 21 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,320 And yet, when you step back and look at it from a political 22 00:01:23,320 --> 00:01:26,800 lens, India has perhaps never felt more isolated. 23 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,720 A in its own neighborhood and B in the game it prides itself as 24 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,400 being a part of. So what does this tell us? 25 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,400 Is dominance in cricket or sport translating into influence? 26 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,440 Is it breeding resentment? And what happens when a game 27 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,240 that once connected the subcontinent starts to mirror 28 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,920 its structures? To discuss this, all of this and 29 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,320 more, we have with us Sushant Singh, journalist, author, 30 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,600 lecturer at the in South Asian Studies at the Yale University. 31 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,680 He's also consulting editor at the Caravan, a columnist with 32 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,480 the Telegraph, The Morning Context, and you can read his 33 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,320 work in Foreign Affairs, Foreign Policy, Financial Times in The 34 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,880 New Yorker. Cricket fans have most recently 35 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,680 seen him on videos of the Caravan and read his writing on 36 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,199 cricket ET al. We highly recommend checking out 37 00:02:08,199 --> 00:02:12,680 his Cricket ET al piece on Mustafizer Musafizer Rahman 38 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,240 called Musta Fisher. Welcome to the pod, Sushant. 39 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,280 How are you doing? Thank you, Sarthak, and thank 40 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,960 you MB. And also a big shout out for for 41 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:22,880 Sharda Agra for putting us in touch. 42 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:25,600 And so it's wonderful to be on your podcast. 43 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,440 Super So let's start with something that's that's recent. 44 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:36,800 We recently lost IAS Vidra and Cricinfo published a moving 45 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,760 tribute from S Sun Money, who served within the ICC, who 46 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,600 worked closely with Mr. Bindra during the 1996 World Cup. 47 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:46,600 And Sr. Money's tribute wrote about the 48 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,760 background mechanics at what went into making the 96 World 49 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,520 Cup a reality for Pilcom. Which is the Pakistan, India, 50 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,440 Lanka committee where they could have fought for their own shares 51 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,560 but they went together and you know, Pakistan and India 52 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,560 actually played a game combined in Sri Lanka. 53 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,760 So back then, power seemed to come with a willingness to tag 54 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:07,240 everyone along, to stand together. 55 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,360 Talking about like the contrast between the time of Bindran Mani 56 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,600 to what we see cricket as now. What do you think? 57 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:16,880 Has what do you think has changed? 58 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,840 Where are we right now? No, so you know this is an 59 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,680 interesting entry point into the discussion on how cricket now 60 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,480 looks like vis A vis what it looked like in the 80s and 90s. 61 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,680 So as San Mani's piece also refer to what happened in 87 and 62 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,400 how things going on. What I thought particularly 63 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,200 significant in as San Mani's piece, even going beyond the 64 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:40,440 pilkom, what 2 aspects 1 is when the Sahara Cup is he's, you 65 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,320 know, he's organized in Canada. I don't know if you guys 66 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,000 remember those six or five or six series, you know, setups 67 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,080 where sort of gambling once took 5 because bowling is WWE Seamus 68 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,240 and Inzabamuhulak went into the audience, you know, into the. 69 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,120 Stadium. With his bat etcetera in famous 70 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,600 for a lot of things and Debashish Monti troubling aside 71 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:00,480 and who could not pick him up etcetera, etcetera. 72 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,680 So you know, keeping that aside. So he gives a very interesting 73 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,520 anecdote about the, about the Sahara Cup that Mark Mescarnas 74 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,000 comes to comes to comes to Bindra and says, you know, that 75 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,000 we will pay you more because India's a bigger television 76 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:14,840 market and we'll pay Pakistan less. 77 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,920 And Bindra says, no, we will both be paid equally. 78 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,600 And, and he personally decides to inform Assan Money that and, 79 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,880 and, and Mastran, as I said that I will not tell the Pakistanis 80 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:26,960 that I'm paying you more. So, you know, it would have been 81 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,520 very easy for BCCI or Bindar to take that kind of money. 82 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,560 But he goes to Assan money. He says, I didn't want you to 83 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,760 hear from, from Mark. I wanted you to hear from me 84 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,240 that they came with this offer and we refuse that offer. 85 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,760 So it shows a kind of a respect and an equality with which, with 86 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,120 which you are teaching other, other countries as equal 87 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,360 partners. The example that you gave gave 88 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,480 of Pilcom also comes from there. And you were not seeing you 89 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,040 yourself as some kind of a superior being, as some kind of, 90 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,520 you know, in a power hierarchy almost like almost like the 91 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,480 Chinese mythology that there is a hierarchy in which somebody's 92 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,120 at the centre at the top and then everybody else is in a 93 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,920 hierarchy lower, lower below. So what you see both in 87 when 94 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,880 the Reliance World Cup is organized and in 1996 is very 95 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,680 clearly or even slightly later is something where India and 96 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:10,880 Pakistan are willing to engage as equals with with. 97 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,280 Mutual respect for each other. The second thing which stood out 98 00:05:14,280 --> 00:05:17,920 for me in Assan Manis piece and I think that is where you know, 99 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,040 that is where the shift has taken place under the current 100 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,480 dispensation under this, you know, the under under Jaysha and 101 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,360 everyone else in the last few years. 102 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,520 I think is the is the couple of concluding paragraphs where he 103 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,680 says where Assan Mani says that even when India had problems 104 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,840 with Pakistan or you know, wanted to, you know, punish 105 00:05:36,840 --> 00:05:38,720 Pakistan or show Pakistan in bad light. 106 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,880 Both Bindra and Jagmohan Dalmia agreed with Assan Mani that it 107 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,040 should not be at the cost of cricket that at no point should 108 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,320 the sport itself suffer, even though, you know, they're both 109 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:51,600 sides understood that they were political aims that needed to be 110 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,080 managed like one of the Sara cups had to be cancelled, 111 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:55,760 etcetera, etcetera because of Kargil war. 112 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,000 So he says we just so that the broad picture should remain 113 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,160 clear. So you can, you know, you can do 114 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:03,560 all these other things, smaller things, tactical things, but the 115 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:05,240 bigger goal should never should never be heard. 116 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:07,960 That almost reminded me of I don't know if you, if you guys 117 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,360 have seen the Lincoln, that the very famous movie Lincoln, maybe 118 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:12,520 a decade old now award-winning movie. 119 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,040 So there's a line where in Lincoln where he says, you know, 120 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,000 I was a map maker. You know, I, you never go to 121 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,640 your destination straight jumping over rivers and stream 122 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,560 and river and and fences and and riverlets. 123 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,000 You always take a journey, which is, which is more easy to, to 124 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:28,560 do, but you reach your destination. 125 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:32,720 And I'm, and he's talking about the anti race, anti anti race, 126 00:06:33,280 --> 00:06:36,840 anti slavery legislation that, you know, if I'm not doing 127 00:06:36,840 --> 00:06:39,160 everything like absolutely in a straight line, it is because I 128 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:40,840 know where, how to reach the destination. 129 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,040 And I think that was very clear when you look at Sr. money's 130 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,840 piece or what, what Bindra, what Bindra did or what, or what even 131 00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:50,480 Amrit Mathur says was done at that was was done at that point 132 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:52,280 in time. I think that we should also 133 00:06:52,280 --> 00:06:56,120 recognize that this is also a period when England and Usus are 134 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,360 England and Australia. Australia are extremely are 135 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,840 extremely dominant in cricket. So it in a sense allows 136 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,080 countries like India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka to band together or 137 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,440 even W Indies to an extent. To band together and you know, 138 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:11,640 look at this kind of a very white men operation. 139 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,640 So you think of almost like India's independence movement 140 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:16,800 where nationalism could be defined in terms of being an 141 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,120 anti colonial national. So it was easier at that point 142 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,040 in time when cricket was so dominated. 143 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,880 I think the late 80s both England and Australia had a veto 144 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,840 in the Imperial Cricket Council or what became the ICC later on. 145 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,360 And even in the 90s England had not given the details of it's 146 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:34,440 off first for the 96 World Cup when they came with the 147 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,880 proposal. So I think we must not forget 148 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,320 that the global context in which cricket operated at that point 149 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:44,200 in time easily allowed countries like India and Pakistan to, you 150 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,720 know, to, to band together, to come together. 151 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,440 India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka to come together and other there 152 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:51,880 other their premises, other their market, other their thing. 153 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,000 The third thing which we should also recognize that this is a 154 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,960 that is a period in the 80s and 90s when India and the 155 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,160 difference between India and Pakistan is not really big. 156 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,040 India and Pakistan is still hyphenated both economically and 157 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,240 geopolitically. So, you know, the first time it 158 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,800 happens is when Clinton comes to India to visit India, he spends 159 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,760 four days in India and then spends an hour and a half in 160 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:11,160 Pakistan. And that's the first time that 161 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,360 the different that the hyphenation is going away. 162 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,320 So II and Pakistan were hyphenated and were seen to seen 163 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,000 as at peers at par with each with each other. 164 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,240 So there was no idea that we are we are massively superior and 165 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,480 how can we engage with a riffraff country like Pakistan, 166 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,080 which is a kind of narrative which has gained ground in last 167 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,840 12 to 15 years, particularly that you know that we should not 168 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,320 be engaging with Pakistan. So if you see within this 169 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,640 context, the people who are leading the, the BCCI and the 170 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,480 PCB, the quality of people and I know while we are critical of 171 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,240 BCCI, the quality of people leading PCB and BCB is equally 172 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,160 bad. The Bangladesh Cricket Board and 173 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,600 Pakistan Cricket Board, we should recognize are led by 174 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:49,800 equally bad people. And I think the the the 175 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,360 structure of the ICC where the power was distributed with the 176 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,120 with the, with these countries, Gora countries, with these white 177 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,440 countries and the fact that geopolitically, economically, 178 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,920 etcetera, India and Pakistan were still peer were peer 179 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,600 countries allowed that kind of thing to take take place. 180 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,880 But the factor the fact remains that the cricket was at the was 181 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:11,840 the was the larger aim which should not have been hurt at 182 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,040 that point in time. Yeah. 183 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:18,080 And I, since you mentioned this other, one of the core memories 184 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,160 of our time when you mentioned the 99 Kargil war and the 185 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:26,240 cancellation of the Sahara Cup in Toronto was the India, the 186 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,960 test series in India, that where Pakistan came over for two tests 187 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,720 in India and the world Test, the first Asian Test championship 188 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,480 game in Calcutta. And you know, Shiv Sena dug up 189 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,320 the page for the Kotla test. The Kotla test had to be moved 190 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:39,240 to the second test. All that. 191 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,840 And there is a footage that's, that's been recorded and put on 192 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,680 YouTube and everywhere else is documentary footage before the 193 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:50,160 1st test as Tendulkar is, you know, training. 194 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,720 I think Sara is just born or Arjun is just born. 195 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,400 So Wasim Akram goes with a gift and goes up to Sachin, puts his 196 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,440 armor behind his bag and says baby Kesar. 197 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,920 And Sachin is like baby buddy. And he also tells the story of 198 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:05,960 how Saeed Anwar approach him in Toronto. 199 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:07,600 And he's like Sachin Bhai Baat Karniya. 200 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:14,480 Sachin is like, please tell me. And he's like ball in swing. 201 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:18,760 And these are stories of friendship. 202 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:24,080 I mean it is being, you know, it is the way the the film has been 203 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,080 made. It's like these massive enemies 204 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,800 and hurling stones at each other where there has been lots of 205 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:30,600 camera triggering the 23 World Cup. 206 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,680 For example, there were articles coming out of how Gawasgar and 207 00:10:33,680 --> 00:10:36,160 Nihadat's families travelled together when they were touring 208 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:38,200 and how they would stay at each other's place. 209 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,320 Their wives would go out together, these two would go out 210 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,920 together. Sidhu went over for Imran Khan 211 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,960 when he became head of state. And. 212 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:50,760 You know, one thing that it may be repetition of the initial 213 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,560 conversation, one thing that really hurts us is that 214 00:10:53,560 --> 00:10:57,480 camaraderie has gone with so many countries where it's become 215 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,560 so tribal. And there is a pride that BCCI 216 00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:04,160 takes at being in the position of power today where it's like, 217 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,360 oh, no, I mean, back when we were not in power, somebody else 218 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,360 was behaving this way. Today we are in power. 219 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,160 We have all the right behaviour. Like bullies. 220 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,960 Do you see it as also societal change towards, you know, an 221 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,120 almost alpha male personality ruling everywhere, be it 222 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,680 politics, be it trade, be it tech? 223 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,880 It's UCD's alpha male very, you know, big Bollywood led by these 224 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,840 Bollywood, these massive alpha male saying we will, we know how 225 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,200 it's done. Do you see it as a societal turn 226 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,760 towards, you know, the alpha male ecosystem? 227 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,040 Yes, I think a lot of threats should be in there and I don't 228 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,680 know how political your podcast can get, but as as. 229 00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:44,000 Political as you. Want to as political as it can. 230 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,880 OK, and we so you know as as Hartosh and I was discussing and 231 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,320 I said Hartosh, every field in India now have their mini 232 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,720 Modi's. We have lots of mini Modi's 233 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,560 everywhere you can go the cricket, the cricket stars, 234 00:11:55,560 --> 00:11:57,680 agents, they they behave like Amit Shah. 235 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,720 And so you have the same thing in Bollywood, you same have same 236 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,040 thing in a business, you know and media behaves in the same 237 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:04,800 manner. What started with Bollywood and 238 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,480 Page 3 has then has infiltrated all over in every sphere of 239 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,320 Indian, Indian public Indian, Indian public life and cricket 240 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:16,320 is definitely is definitely not an not an not an exception to do 241 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,920 that thing. You know, as far because you 242 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,760 raise the question about India, Pakistan, camaraderie and, and, 243 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,920 and people coming together. The 99 documentary that you're 244 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,400 talking about, I think there was Channel 4 documentary Sharia 245 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:29,720 Khan. And this is just before the and 246 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,720 you'll see Wasim Akram with his wife, then wife, you know, who 247 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,120 passed away unfortunately, and the and the two sons, etcetera 248 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,480 in the in a, in a hotel room. There's, there's very nice 249 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:39,760 footage. There's a lot of nice footage 250 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,560 and Shehra Khan telling him that we are ambassador, our job here 251 00:12:42,560 --> 00:12:45,560 is to you know, is to this is a diplomatic activity that we are 252 00:12:45,560 --> 00:12:48,240 doing and Sharia Khan being the old world diplomat, you know, 253 00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:50,520 all all that is in that all these are thankful. 254 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:52,160 But even in the past history to this. 255 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,360 So 99 is after the Kargil war is over and Musharraf is coming to 256 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,960 Agra, etcetera, etcetera. Please remember, 71, you know, 257 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,720 if you go back and read Sunny Days again, there is this 258 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,920 portion about the rest of world playing Australia at that point 259 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:05,840 in time because South Africa could not travel because they've 260 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,440 just been barred in apartheid. And you remember that, that 261 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,040 famous Gary Sober's innings, you know, which Ian Chapman and 262 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,160 everybody says is the greatest betting display? 263 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:14,760 The greatest. Don also. 264 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,560 Said that you know where he thrashes Dennis Lily all over 265 00:13:17,560 --> 00:13:19,520 the place after getting out for Duck in the first innings. 266 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:24,440 So it isn't that series that the 71 war is on at that point in 267 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,440 time. And in the Kaabalam and Bishan 268 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,000 Bedi and Farooq engineer and Sunny Gavaskar and all of them 269 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,320 are there in the rest of the world 11 and sunny Gavaskar 270 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,560 mentions it in sunny days that they are actually going out for 271 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:37,160 dinners every time they're actually listening to the 272 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,880 updates on radio about the war and and they say in the Kaab is 273 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,160 worried whether Lahore would be bombed and Bedi is talking about 274 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:44,480 whether India and Punjab will be bombed. 275 00:13:44,680 --> 00:13:49,040 But the camaraderie and the bond does not go away even when the 276 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,280 two countries at war and these people are travelling together. 277 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,600 So, you know, we we were, we were talking about, we were 278 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,200 talking about the past where where things were like this 279 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:02,120 between in in sport to a point. Now where, you know, the kind of 280 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,120 some of the kind of language that that Surrey other views 281 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,800 after the Asia Cup or during the Asia Cup was like really toxic 282 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,680 and bad. And and I I really don't know 283 00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:14,320 whether that that, you know, that really goes with the idea 284 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,520 of sport. If the idea of sport is to 285 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,360 build, is to build bridges, is to is to explore the best of 286 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,280 humanity is to excel, to be imperfect, to accept 287 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,360 imperfection, to have second chances, you know all all those 288 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:26,840 glorious things which you are the Olympic code. 289 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,120 Essentially the Olympic code, essentially the. 290 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,680 Olympic code, you know, there are problems with the Olympic 291 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:33,360 code as well. But the point, the idea is that 292 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,160 you can fail, you can succeed, you can, you can be imperfect 293 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:37,960 and you can, you have second chances in life. 294 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,480 And this is human excellence at it at it's best and it can 295 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,640 inspire others and you know, do a lot for humanity. 296 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,680 Bring people to bring people together, not not divide people. 297 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,040 But I think something which happened in in in English 298 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,960 football primarily and that got transposed this kind of 299 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,640 tribalism which perfectly fits with nationalism. 300 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,400 So, and this is something which started happening in the late 301 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,880 90s in India, as you would remember, there's that very 302 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:03,320 famous book about the 1996 World Cup as to, you know, how things 303 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:05,600 started changing. So that tribalism which which 304 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,120 comes in and primarily you see this with marketing gimmicks, 305 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,040 you know, the English football, the the English Premier League 306 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,760 football teams going out with their, you know, with their kids 307 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,200 and with their and, and actually trying to sway the minds and 308 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:18,560 trying to create a cult around it. 309 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,280 So that cultivification and the, you know, and the idea of 310 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,480 celebrity hood of Indian cricket where, where you know, at a new 311 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,920 trophy match having Virat Kohli will have 10,000 people and all 312 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,280 10,000 will manage the moment Virat Kohli's out, you know, 313 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:32,520 kind of a thing. You're not coming there for 314 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:33,920 cricket, you're not coming there to enjoy sport. 315 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:35,560 You're just coming to watch a celebrity. 316 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:37,960 You know, it could have been instead of Virat Kohli, it could 317 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:39,320 have been Ranveer Singh for all you care. 318 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,000 Like it's just you're coming for celebrity watching in the name 319 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:43,640 in the, in the name of in the name of cricket. 320 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,480 So I think the one is 1 is to come back to your original 321 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:49,880 question before we divert too much is but yes, the Indian 322 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,640 society and polity has changed dramatically in the last 1520 323 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,040 years. The idea of these mini Modi's 324 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,040 being everywhere there where they where they try to control 325 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,160 and show that they are superior to everything. 326 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,720 And it's all hierarchical where somebody's above you and 327 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,160 somebody's below you. So you'll be very nice to Trump 328 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,320 and say nothing to Trump, but you will try and punish 329 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,960 Bangladesh or whatever or Nepal or whatever, supposedly a small 330 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,160 smaller country. And I think that is replicated, 331 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,480 that is replicated in every sphere in India, whether it is 332 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,840 films, whether it is cricket, whether it is television, 333 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,400 whether it is media houses, whether it is journalism. 334 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:29,560 In all these, Indian public life has been diminished to a great 335 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:33,360 degree by doing this. But let's also not forget that 336 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,840 sport, particularly when sport is diminished in this way, it 337 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,240 has a larger consequence. You know, then there's some of 338 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,600 those good things in life. It is like art, you know. 339 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,160 Why do we do art? Why do we do music? 340 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,680 If music is only going to be toxic and going to tell you to 341 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,160 do to do nasty things to Pakistan or to kill all Muslims 342 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,680 or do or to punish all Christians, then that music has 343 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:53,880 really no value or any argument. Don't give them ideas. 344 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:55,920 Sushant No. They have enough ideas. 345 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,040 Bhojpuri thing. There's a great book on how much 346 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:00,920 Xbox. The Edge pop. 347 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,920 Book is there so they was there they already have all the 348 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,400 audible ideas that you and I can't imagine of they already 349 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,000 have part of the life. So you know so so sport to my 350 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,240 mind, you know, growing up and I'm sure as you were growing up, 351 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,359 sport was about something fine in life, something nice in life, 352 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,200 something positive, something which made you feel good about 353 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,440 yourself, about your group, about people you know about you. 354 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,599 That's why you clap even when an opposition player hit hits A6 or 355 00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:26,880 does well, then AB de Villiers is massacring. 356 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:28,920 You're a key pointing in 2003 World Cup final. 357 00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:31,680 You have to acknowledge that this guy is playing at the peak 358 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,000 of his pass. Now you can't say enough like 359 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,160 this guy is not playing well. You know, we or Wasim, you know, 360 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,720 Wasim Akram, like this peak is Wasim Akram. 361 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,280 There is no no one else like it is it is that kind of a thing. 362 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:43,920 But I think unfortunately, we have reached that stage where 363 00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:46,520 where everybody's an enemy rather than being an opponent in 364 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,600 a sport field where the idea that, you know, our team has to 365 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,400 be win, win at all at all costs. And if we don't win, then it is 366 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,480 not a sport, then we'll not talk about it. 367 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,480 I don't know if you guys realize this and we, you know, and 368 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,560 Sarthak Indian media coverage of cricket matches where India 369 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:05,800 loses is so much lesser than Indian media coverage of cricket 370 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,040 matches II wins. There is hardly any coverage. 371 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,640 They don't want to do anything which will show Indian cricket 372 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,840 team in bad light that Indian team, cricket team can fail. 373 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,600 The the reports will just vanish so quickly. 374 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,280 And I'm talking about even as prominent aside as ESPN, 375 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,840 Cricinfo or Cricbuzz or whatever, you know, some of 376 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,360 those prominent sites, the difference in coverage. 377 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:26,680 If it wins, it will come. It will be running for three 378 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,640 days with 10 pieces. I think you're talking about 379 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:31,200 everything. And if India loses, then it's 380 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:32,520 like vanish. It vanishes. 381 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,000 And there will be no, there'll be some very minor technical 382 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:36,560 pieces here and there and then you'll just vanish. 383 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:38,400 So. So even a tenure like Gautam 384 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,160 Gambhir is not analyzed critically enough. 385 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,920 You know, you will skirt around the boundaries adjacent to what 386 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,440 is what the real issues are without, without playing it. 387 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,800 So yeah, we we really are in a very weird time in that in, in 388 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,400 that sense. I see this often there. 389 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,200 Yeah, go ahead. I think, I think it's the same 390 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,080 joke that essentially India's never lost on Star Sports. 391 00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:04,760 So Star Sports we really. Yeah, Sanjay Gupta. 392 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,360 There's a Sanjay Gupta quote, no, when when they were 393 00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:10,400 conceiving the IPL that in this India will win every day. 394 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,800 Sanjay Gupta was head of ESPN Star or I think Sony, one of one 395 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,840 of the companies at that time and he had said that during the 396 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:23,800 IPL, India will win every day. Now he's the ICC CEO, man. 397 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,840 He's the ICC CI. Yes, now India will win either. 398 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,680 India will win or there will be no matches. 399 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:32,520 Did you guys see that India will? 400 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:34,720 Win or India will win. Did you see that? 401 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:38,680 Kunal Kamra tweet about ICC being the parody account of the 402 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:40,240 BCCI. Yeah. 403 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,600 So incidentally, our next question is on that itself. 404 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,800 So Sharda of course, in her now famous interview with Karan said 405 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,000 that ICC is BCCI is the way office. 406 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,280 So I think I will take it one step ahead. 407 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,440 I'll say that it's the BJ PS Dubai office with a dotted line 408 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:00,840 reporting to Mukesh Ambani. So I mean. 409 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,760 How do you see this from a geopolitical lens that ICC is 410 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,080 essentially speaking the BCCI's language and even without 411 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,720 Jayshah at the helm, it's essentially powerless in front 412 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:16,120 of Indian money? Yeah, I think that much is 413 00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:20,840 pretty clear that the that this recognition that ICC or world 414 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:25,920 cricket runs on Indian money and India can run the world run, run 415 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,080 world cricket the way it wants to run. 416 00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:31,760 It's something very, very, it's something very, very, very, very 417 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,600 clear. And I think when Shabba said 418 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,280 that ICC is BCCI is Dubai office, she's actually saying 419 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,760 the same thing that you're saying BJP is BJP is the way 420 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:41,920 office. Or Mukesh Bai's dotted line, 421 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:43,720 dash line. Or maybe not even a dash line 422 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,280 because the lines are all all Criss crossing all over the IT 423 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,360 is same way. Or Geo ICC. 424 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,760 Sorry, it's Geo. ICCICC powered by Geo Yeah, 425 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,440 yeah, it's Geo. ICC and it's crazy, like the 426 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,280 ESPN Griffin Co is also owned by Geo, Yeah. 427 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,720 Like what is left then that everything, the whole ecosystem 428 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:05,880 is owned by owned by these guys. Now when coming to the parallels 429 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:10,560 with geopolitics, so this how India behaves with ICC and world 430 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,480 cricket is how the Hindutva regime in India would want to 431 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,040 behave in geopolitics. This is what? 432 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,000 Their idea is that if we tomorrow have the kind of power, 433 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,000 then we should be able to get away with anything that we do. 434 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,200 The idea of almost, you know, as they used to call it, or an 435 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,080 Arctic part where might is right only only words. 436 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,920 So we criticize Trump for doing might is right now kind of a 437 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:34,680 thing that today I'll bomb around, tomorrow I'll bomb 438 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,200 Venezuela kind of a thing. Indians are doing the same in in 439 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,000 world cricket and they will do the same. 440 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,600 If they had that kind of part, if they had that kind of part 441 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,200 geopolitically, now what? What else you are? 442 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,640 Seeing is something which somebody had told me just 443 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,960 yesterday, somebody whom we both of us know, but I don't want to 444 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:57,960 name the person is is that the? That the BCCI and ICC are now 445 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,560 actively going out and soliciting smaller countries for 446 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,680 Olympic bids by giving them largest, by giving them money, 447 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,040 etcetera. Large number of small countries 448 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,080 in South America and their cricket just doesn't exist at 449 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:12,960 all. But you know, you can always go 450 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,920 and, and, and give them, you know, give them funds, give them 451 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,360 grants and almost like a lobbying activity. 452 00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:21,760 So, so that you know, Ahmedabad, it gets to host the, you know, 453 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,440 host, host, host the Olympics in 202036. 454 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,960 And both Jaisha and Sanjo Gupta are part of part of that 455 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,640 exercise. Even, you know, countries like 456 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,080 Uganda, which is of course now famous for tweeting what it 457 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,800 tweeted a couple of days back. If you if you go for if you go 458 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,680 to the Uganda cricket website, the picture on top is the Uganda 459 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:44,920 cricket guys with Jaisha at the top of the top of their website 460 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,520 and these guys are actually making fun of ICC etc. 461 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:49,680 So. I was actually. 462 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,680 Inquiring whether these guys are really the cricket board etc and 463 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,760 they said yes, they are the real cricket board And you go and 464 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:57,880 click the link and you can see the picture with Jaisha there. 465 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,760 So by the way, Iceland is not affiliated to ICC. 466 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,280 So while it is an official account of the Iceland cricket 467 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,800 which keeps on doing those shit posting, it is not officially a 468 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,160 member of the ICC. There are just 5 cricket clubs 469 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,680 which operate in Iceland and this is an this is a group of 470 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,720 that. So at least let me clear Iceland 471 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,840 is at least when it's mocking or doing the shit posting it is not 472 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,720 part of the ice. The Iceland Football Association 473 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,240 to a Twitter account is the same. 474 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:23,920 I think it's the same dudes handling it. 475 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:26,880 Because they also. Do pretty much the same stuff. 476 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,320 Yeah, and they claim that they are not S Asians. 477 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,680 I, I, I refuse to believe it, but that's the claim that they 478 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:32,480 make. I don't know. 479 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:35,800 I don't know another thing that is. 480 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,080 Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. I don't think that in in the 481 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,960 same conversation about, you know, lobbying and, you know, 482 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,560 owning disproportionate power. And to tie back to an older 483 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,040 point that you make, the main Sushant is when we were growing 484 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,160 up, and I'm 100% sure it's true for you and a lot of our 485 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,800 listeners in our almiras, in our bedroom walls, we'd have posters 486 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,360 of this multiple. Like all of us had jaunty roads. 487 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,960 Every single person in my generation had jaunty roads. 488 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,680 That same picture of his run out against in the month we had 489 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,600 warned we had Lara, we had we had lots of people and that came 490 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,280 from an appreciation of what the sport was. 491 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,520 Yes, we were fans of India and we desperately wanted India to 492 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,720 win every game, but there was an appreciation for the sport. 493 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:29,840 Do you feel that in trying to be this overlord, at least from our 494 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,800 perspective, that appreciation is gone where we are now more 495 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:38,680 interested in, you know, victory and glory rather than the nuance 496 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,560 of a sport? And it's unfortunately coming at 497 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,080 a time when the 2 cricket team, the men's and the women's 498 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:51,080 cricket team are bloody good. No, I completely, I, I, I 100% 499 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,480 agree with you that the idea of sport as a scale has something 500 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,360 to be appreciated, appreciated, something to be inspired by, 501 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,000 something, you know, even if an, even if an opposing team or 502 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,760 another team does well. And the whole idea of people 503 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,120 clapping in the cricket field when somebody scores a century, 504 00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:06,000 etcetera, you know, comes from, comes from there. 505 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,760 But you know, one of the indicators of that will look at 506 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,440 the cricket commentary. I'm sure you guys have done 507 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,960 podcasts on cricket commentary and the quality of cricket 508 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,280 commentary, particularly in India, but globally, and I don't 509 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,200 think the Australian commentary is any, any great. 510 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:19,400 Maybe NASA Rosen and Michael Arthur, certain maybe the last 511 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,720 couple of guys left who might still be doing some decent, 512 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,480 decent work other than particularly. 513 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,080 But other than that, I if you look at the cricket commentary, 514 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,240 the way the way it covers. So, you know, you and I in our 515 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,000 growing up years were also shaped by cricket commentary, 516 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,200 like, you know, in the kind of cricket commentators that were 517 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:37,920 there. So you you get a particular kind 518 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,080 of narrative, you get a particular kind of understanding 519 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,720 and you they don't, they tell you to appreciate good things, 520 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:44,960 you know, and say, OK, this guy's so good or this opponent 521 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,000 is so good and you don't got to say the right thing about 522 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,600 opponent, what you have right now. 523 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,840 Is a very. Is a very. 524 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,280 Parochial and I'm, I'm using a very mild word here, very 525 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,360 parochial kind of commentary. So the younger generation which 526 00:25:57,360 --> 00:25:59,480 is listening to that kind of commentary or seeing that kind 527 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:00,640 of coverage. And then you of course have the 528 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,080 toxicity of social media. So how are you being socialized 529 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:05,800 into cricket? How are you being socialized 530 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,920 into sport, sport and in today's India? 531 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,600 If you are in today's India, you are being socialized into into, 532 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,200 into cricket only through nationalism, through very toxic 533 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,120 social media and through a commentary which which doesn't 534 00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:19,960 talk about finer part, but in which is only that into hype and 535 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,120 hoopla. And like only the Indian cricket 536 00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:24,440 team and the Indian cricket star exist, you know, star building, 537 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,920 etcetera, etcetera. So how do we socialize a young 538 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,200 person? If you, if you and I were 10 or 539 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,680 12 today and we're being socialized into this kind of 540 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,280 cricket, we're being, we will not have the kind of cricket 541 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,400 education that that, that that we have also have. 542 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,080 When we say, when we talk like this, Arthur and MV, I'm happy 543 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,120 because I'm a old man. You guys are much younger. 544 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:43,840 You should not talk about our time, our time. 545 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,360 You know, people who think you are some 65 year old, 70 year 546 00:26:46,360 --> 00:26:48,600 old guys when you are like when you're like barely out of. 547 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,440 But the difference is such, I mean, I hear a point, I'm sure 548 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,240 MV will agree with me. And we, MV and I, because we 549 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,240 live close to each other, we have this chat often. 550 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,320 The difference is so stark. The generation gap is so massive 551 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,920 that a 12, you rightly said the 12 to 15 year old. 552 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,360 It's not their fault because when we're growing up, there 553 00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:14,520 were these programs run by Ramiz Raja, a Tony Cosio, Richie Beno, 554 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,720 a Tony Gregor. Boycott whoever sometimes John 555 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,040 Dyricks Well, it would be a program on the history of the 556 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,840 game, nothing to do with the two countries playing it. 557 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,480 I have seen footage from West Indies versus Pakistan during 558 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,680 the 80s. Pakistan were the only operands 559 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,120 they struggled with in that 80 to 95 period. 560 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,280 And there was such an appreciation for Imran and Zahir 561 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,600 Abbas and even in our households. 562 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,000 I Prem Pannekar is a is a friend, guide, mentor, all of it 563 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,560 with to me. So I keep talking to him about 564 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:49,480 cricket and he I remember him saying that when when he was 565 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:54,760 growing up and when even our generation, you looked at the 566 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:59,480 sport 1st and then you funneled into your like players and like 567 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,960 teams and the conversation was always about the sport. 568 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,920 Today, that conversation itself has shifted to, you know, 569 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:12,400 recognizing your identity, your power, and I guess I'll. 570 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,040 Segue into the next question, I mean along with Mark. 571 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,800 Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, just before that, I think 572 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,680 kids today because I have a 7 year old and I see other kids 573 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,280 around. So kids today essentially, even 574 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,120 if they play sport, it's from that hero worship side itself, 575 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,560 right? So, so it's always like a 576 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:41,040 Cristiano Ronaldo versus Messi or versus somebody or or Virat 577 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,160 Kohli versus Rohit Sharma or something like that. 578 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,520 It is, it is not about key. Like my entire childhood is 579 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,960 essentially spent copying bowling actions of every bowler 580 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:52,880 that I knew because I used to play with the wall. 581 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,680 I had no friends in my own building to until I started 582 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,600 started getting good to play in another building essentially 583 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,440 played with the wall. So you would copy everybody. 584 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:08,720 Now that itself is gone. The other the other thing about 585 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:14,120 commentary is that painfully I I've I've watched cricket on 586 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:21,840 mute and and now and now it has come to a scenario where my 7 587 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:23,880 year old like maybe just put it on mute. 588 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,920 It's fine. It used to be like, why? 589 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,000 Why are you watching on mute to OK, I think it's fine. 590 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,440 You can put it on mute and. So I think. 591 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,280 Even the younger generation, probably if you are able to 592 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,560 guide them through, they will understand that this is probably 593 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,760 not the right kind because I mean, what are what are they 594 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:44,640 looking at? If, if you are looking at a 595 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,600 match between, let's say Pakistan versus New Zealand, but 596 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,520 the as soon as the innings break happens, I think Pakistan versus 597 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,320 Australia was the game in, in the 2023 World Cup. 598 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,120 As soon as the innings break happened, instead of discussing 599 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,440 Travis Heads 100, they essentially showed that Indian 600 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,400 team has landed in some city and that was what was discussed for 601 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,120 20 minutes. They landed. 602 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,920 I'm like, I have, I have no relation to this. 603 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:15,040 And and and and it further confirmed my biases that I 604 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,080 should I shouldn't watch any pre post match coverage at all. 605 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,840 When earlier, if you look at it like you, you would wait for 606 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:27,160 Inzimam to do something in the post match like that youngster 607 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,920 that that is like like for four months on end, friends would 608 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,240 tell each other youngster just just as Inzimam had done to 609 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,840 Ramiz Raja or like copy Azar saying boys just need to bat 610 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,560 well, bowl well and field well. Like like these were the things 611 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,680 right. And I don't think that's part of 612 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:52,160 the DNA copy other saying exactly I would have. 613 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,440 Like I would play against Hayas like 5 years elder to me and I 614 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,040 just use this line. They'll get so pissed. 615 00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:59,760 It was very funny. Exactly. 616 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,600 Right. And I don't see that happening 617 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,320 as much because when I see people playing sport and people 618 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:12,160 playing any kind of sport at different age groups now and, 619 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,800 and luckily I mean, I understand that I am from privilege. 620 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,120 One change that I that I do see at least in the last 6 to 9 621 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,520 months is that the number of boys and girls playing together 622 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,360 has increased. And I and I say it from a very 623 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:30,160 privileged lens and I'm not commenting about all of India, 624 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,520 but that has increased. So I think that at least gives 625 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,680 me some joy. So in so in case any of the 626 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,240 listeners say he, we only talk about the bad things. 627 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:40,880 I think I've just shared a positive. 628 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,080 And one more thing which I will definitely say is that the caste 629 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,960 hierarchy and the social hierarchy of you know of Indian, 630 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,040 even male cricketers has flattened to a great degree in 631 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,840 last 2025 years that you have to acknowledge. 632 00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,760 So Indian cricket was highly dominated by by upper caste or 633 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,360 upper class social groups and that is that has completely 634 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:05,840 changed in the last 20 odd years. 635 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,920 This, you know, young girls and women playing is very, very, you 636 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,440 know, is a is a great positive. You know, this may simply help 637 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,520 probably in some way help us treat women better, treat young 638 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,240 treat young girls equally. And this may if it helps in any 639 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,800 way denting patriarchy in India or do anything for gender 640 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,600 equality. You know, I'll be more than 641 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,080 that's a huge, huge positive, even if it is does in a limited 642 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,400 way because people see, you know, young girls on the same 643 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,520 cricket field are playing with play playing with them. 644 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,280 That would be that would definitely, definitely were 645 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,360 youth. But the way the way three of us 646 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,320 are talking, you know, I don't know, I don't know if you guys 647 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:42,920 ever remember this. There was a there was a very 648 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,360 famous Zambi Bharti play called Andaiyuk, which is at the end of 649 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,120 Mahabharata. This is a small play and very 650 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,040 famous play and that was conducted on at Puranakla also. 651 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:52,480 And he wrote it when he was just 25. 652 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,080 Zambi Bharti who wrote Gunahuka Devta and Suratka Satva Gora 653 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:57,600 Vishyam Manikal made it into films. 654 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,920 Very famous Hindi writer and. Obvious you know there is a. 655 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,440 Opening line to Joe Sabhitha song. 656 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,600 So you know, it's almost like when you, when we are talking, 657 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:18,520 it's almost a limit for the times that have that have that 658 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,480 have that have gone by, that have gone by. 659 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,600 No, I, I, there is nothing to disagree here on what you what, 660 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,560 what we are, what three of us are, what, what three of us are 661 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,400 saying. But what essentially we should 662 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,280 recognize is that 1 is a diminitious sport and 663 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,960 diminitious cricket, and it diminishes as human beings or as 664 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:36,680 a group of people or as a community. 665 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,240 And I think that is something which people should recognize 666 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,880 very quickly. Like with art, like with music, 667 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,720 sport has an ability to uplift you and make you a better 668 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,800 version of yourself both as an individual and as a group. 669 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,880 But it can also now we are seeing it also has the ability 670 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,440 to make you a more diminished version of yourself, more 671 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,120 smaller version of yourself, and also reduce the group to, you 672 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,480 know, how should I put it, a more reduced Group, A more 673 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,840 diminished group, not as as cohesive to as evolve a group as 674 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,520 as we as we can be. I hear you. 675 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaking of Kalu, let's go to Pakistan. 676 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:12,199 Sorry, that joke was right there. 677 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,760 One of our favorite book, all time favorite books is Rahul 678 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,040 Bhattacharya as Pundits from Pakistan and I as somebody who 679 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,639 writes, I keep reading it just for multiple reasons. 680 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,920 But I think what we lose out on and to carry on this point you 681 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,040 made Sushant is Pundits from Pakistan shows Pakistan from the 682 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,639 lens of an Indian tourist, both the country, it's people you 683 00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:37,560 know their love towards India. The 2004 tour was one of the 684 00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:39,520 great tours of you know, our times. 685 00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:45,120 Do you, do you foresee a world in which a newer, younger India 686 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:49,120 will ever see Pakistan normally like the people of Pakistan for 687 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,520 like and separately, you know, their alternative militia with 688 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:59,160 the average Joe in Pakistan? And find that everything between 689 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,240 your sense of humor to your food, to the things you watch, 690 00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:04,560 to the things you, you know, talk about with your parents, 691 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:06,640 everything is the same. Do you think there's a world 692 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,560 where, you know, we can even out or flatten out to that? 693 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,840 I would definitely want to believe that that world is 694 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,680 possible, maybe you know, and hopefully in our own lifetimes. 695 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,280 So, you know, the the way I'll tell you, explain to you is 696 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,200 this, think of it this way. You might think that I'm talking 697 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,280 absolute nonsense and not talking out of my hat. 698 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,400 Just remember you guys come from you guys have grown up in areas 699 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,720 which also saw violence during partition. 700 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:34,520 And just remember what was happening between 46 and 48, 701 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,280 between 46 and 48 till Gandhi's assassination. 702 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,520 And we are talking on the day Gandhi was assassinated on 30th 703 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,400 time we are sees massive criminal violence, shifting of 704 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,840 population, targeting of people. And think of India by 5456. 705 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,480 India is back to being a harmonious country which has 706 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,840 come in, which has come in together under a constitutional 707 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,720 system, countries can change, societies can change, can change 708 00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:00,960 dramatically. Who could have imagined it for 709 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,200 between 46 and 48 that India would dramatically change and 710 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,360 become this country? You know that it could, it could 711 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,520 become this kind of a very secular, cohesive kind of a 712 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:12,520 country where where you had Muslim ministers, where you had 713 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,240 all kinds of people doing all kinds of things. 714 00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:16,160 There was no discrimination at that point, at that point in 715 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,240 time, although they may have remained, social remnants may 716 00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:23,360 have remained or even if by the 60s, if I weren't talking about 717 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,760 if anybody tries to target Muslims, I'll be the first one 718 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,880 and come and punish you because India is not about in those 719 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,080 India. So you know, so societies can 720 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:31,960 change. So we, I would like to believe 721 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,040 that that that such an India is possible. 722 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:36,720 Such an India is definitely possible. 723 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,240 But is it possible if you continue on the current 724 00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:42,480 trajectory? No, It is only possible if this 725 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,760 current trajectory, the political trajectory on which we 726 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,760 are on, if this project, if this project is defeated and 727 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,360 reversed, then only is that alternative future possible. 728 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,480 You know, just one point about Pakistan. 729 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,280 I have travelled to Pakistan as a journalist. 730 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,600 When I was with the Express in 2017, I did travel to Pakistan 731 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,720 and I attended a conference that took me to North Waziristan, 732 00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:05,800 Afghanistan border. So I have seen a bit of Pakistan 733 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,600 etcetera. I when I was with the UN 734 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,960 peacekeeper, with the UN peacekeeping assignment as a 735 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,960 military observer in Kodiwa in Ivory Coast, in West Africa 736 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,480 many, many years back, a couple of decades back even then we had 737 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,680 Pakistani officers, etcetera. So living with us, you know, 738 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,920 working with us, you know, in the, in the same teams. 739 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,440 So I have a little more understanding and of course, my, 740 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,520 you know, international experience at Yale, etcetera, 741 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,680 where of course you meet people from all nationality. 742 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,800 But I work closely and I've also travelled to Pakistan. 743 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,760 This is true. What Rahul also mentions in his 744 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,800 book and what a lot of other people have experienced about 745 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,200 Pakistan is what even Sharda has experienced and written about is 746 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:42,840 the people of. Pakistan. 747 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,200 The average Joe in Pakistan is extremely friendly towards 748 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,680 India. So the state may be very toxic, 749 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,400 you know, and very and very vicious towards India. 750 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,640 Or the militia backed by state may be very vicious. 751 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:54,560 So they may be hardcore conservative groups, which may 752 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,360 be very vicious, but the people of Pakistan and it actually 753 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,080 comes as a surprise because that's not replicated in India. 754 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,800 We are not that outgoing. We are not that positive about 755 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,480 people coming from Pakistan. And this is not just last 10 756 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,760 years, even 20 years back or 25 years back in Pakistan, you get 757 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,000 you actually all of you, all of us can get really surprised as 758 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,920 to why are these guys being so nice to why are these guys being 759 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,000 so nice to us? And you feel that at one level 760 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,240 you almost feel embarrassed, embarrassed about it. 761 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,360 And this is something which a lot of people who have travelled 762 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,080 to Pakistan have experienced and written about. 763 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,640 And I think the point that you make about differentiating 764 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,200 between the Pakistani state, the Pakistani military, the the 765 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,080 jihadi groups and the people of Pakistan, I think that 766 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,640 differentiation has to be definitely there. 767 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,360 We should not lose the goodwill of people of Pakistan like I 768 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,160 always believe we should not lose the goodwill of people of 769 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,080 Bangladesh. You know, governments can come 770 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,000 in, governments can come and go. The people of these countries in 771 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,920 our neighborhood have to believe that Indians, India and Indians 772 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,040 are the lodestar, that they should aspire to that we that we 773 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,760 stand for good things. We stand for, we stand for a 774 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:58,560 bright future. We stand for together, 775 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,560 togetherness. We stand for, you know, a kind 776 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,640 of a harmonious future for a good future. 777 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,080 People have to believe that we can't afford to lose the people. 778 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,960 What my fear is what has happened is that as in the case 779 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,280 of Pakistan and primarily also more prominently in the case of 780 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,880 Bangladesh, we have lost the people. 781 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:15,920 Forget the government. Sheikh Hasina can go, you know, 782 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,680 and Kalidarja's son can come or somebody else can come. 783 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,040 Nawaz Sharif will not be there tomorrow. 784 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:21,360 Musharraf was there, etcetera, etcetera. 785 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,640 How, how could we lose the people of this country? 786 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,680 That is something which is which is really disturbing and that is 787 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,640 something where cricket has also played a part in, in making us 788 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,200 unpopular and, and and and helping us lose the goodwill of 789 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,040 the of large sections of, of people in these in these 790 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:42,480 countries. Yeah, I mean, coming back to 791 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,880 Bangladesh. Then another friend of the 792 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,240 board, Swaroop Swaminathan, who writes for The New Indian 793 00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:55,080 Express, he has a question. Have Bangladesh showed the world 794 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:56,960 India's duplicity? That if they. 795 00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,760 Cared so much about avoiding Pakistan it's actually possible 796 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:01,040 to walk away from the tournament. 797 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,120 Yeah, no, I, I, so I'll give you 2 things on hypocrisy. 1 is of 798 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,960 course what happened with the Asia Cup and how it was 799 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,040 conducted in Dubai and it gave an unfair advantage to the 800 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,440 Indian cricket team which New Zealand and others, Internet 801 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,200 also etcetera, etcetera. So it's it's, it's possible. 802 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,120 And if you are so angry with Pakistan, you will not play them 803 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,680 even even in Colombo. But as you know, then the whole 804 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,680 Geo ICC network will completely collapse because that's the 805 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,480 that's the match which drives the revenue for for the ICCICC 806 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,000 tournaments. The second thing, which we wish 807 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,440 many people actually miss out on this whole debate, is that if 808 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:36,040 you're. So. 809 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,760 Angry with Bangladesh because it is treating religious 810 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,160 minorities, women etcetera poorly under the current regime. 811 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:46,760 Man, what is Taliban doing? What is Taliban doing in 812 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,240 Afghanistan? The Afghan cricket board and 813 00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:51,600 with due respect to a place from Afghanistan, I absolutely adore 814 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:53,120 them. I like their joy of life. 815 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,760 They remind me of Sri Lanka for Wendy Silva and and and those 816 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,960 days of Sanga Guru Sinha 1996. If you if you, if you go back to 817 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,360 they, they enjoy playing. And I'm not against the Afghan 818 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:04,960 cricketers, but if you're going to punish cricket teams. 819 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,920 Or punished cricketers because their governments and their 820 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,480 states are behaving in an obnoxious manner with religious 821 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,240 minority or are targeting religious minority man. 822 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,120 There is no more horrible regime than the Taliban. 823 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:18,720 But you're willing to play up with Afghan players, You're 824 00:41:18,720 --> 00:41:20,080 willing to invite Afghan players. 825 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,240 Afghan players are not being targeted because Hindus are 826 00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:24,600 being killed in, are being targeted in Taliban or Sikhs are 827 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,280 being targeted in, in, in, in Taliban or in Afghanistan or 828 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,480 women are being treated poorly. So this idea that we are doing 829 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,240 it because even by their own logic that we are protectors of 830 00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:35,760 religious minority, non-muslim religious minority in these 831 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:40,000 countries does not hold true. So at 2 levels it is clearly 832 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:41,640 hypocritical. And I think. 833 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,640 The Bangladesh episode. In a sense, you are absolutely 834 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,960 right and we has brought the spotlight, actually brought it 835 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,960 to the fore that this whole thing is completely hypocritical 836 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,360 and does not no principle applies to it. 837 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,680 And so you see, I'm actually pleasantly surprised that a lot 838 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:03,920 of coverage in in non mainstream Indian media or non corporate 839 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:08,400 owned media is actually calling out India and the BCCI and ICC 840 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,680 for what they have done. Which is actually a very good 841 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,240 thing because because in the kind of environment that we have 842 00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:15,080 lived in, it would be very difficult. 843 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,040 You would all worry about being called anti national. 844 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,800 Lot of other people would say we will be targeted if we if, if 845 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,160 this was said. But well, I think he's so many 846 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,840 people have have called us out. You know, Sharda, of course, has 847 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,800 pulled it out so prominently. You guys have been have been 848 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:29,760 vocal about vocal, vocal about it. 849 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:34,240 So this is definitely true that the whole Bangladesh episode has 850 00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:37,120 shown up. What was under the, you know, 851 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,560 almost like under, under, under wraps brush under the carpet has 852 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,600 come to the fore and how you need to see this muck. 853 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,680 This muck is this muck is very much, very, very, very much 854 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,320 lying there. So this there's no principle 855 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,960 that actually applies here. The principle that that you 856 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,080 know, that we are targeting because that because when 857 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:55,880 something has happened there doesn't apply because that same 858 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,040 thing is happening in Afghanistan and principle that 859 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,440 ICC cannot manage it because because Pakistan is doing it. 860 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,520 And there's something great that's wonderful, which Hartosh 861 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,000 actually said, you know, he said you don't want to shake hands 862 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:07,360 with Pakistan after playing the match. 863 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,360 The ball which you are hitting is also coming from Pakistani 864 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,240 hands. Now that the back to that the 865 00:43:12,240 --> 00:43:15,080 ball that you're feeling is also coming from Pakistani, then why 866 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,480 are you fielding the ball? Why are you touching the why are 867 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:24,560 you playing the ball? This is exactly what you're 868 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:26,040 saying. Now you are transferring the 869 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,200 Hindu hierarchical cast structure by saying that these 870 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,760 guys are untouchable for me so I don't want to shake hands with 871 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:31,880 them. So if you are, if they are 872 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:36,920 untouchable, then the whole story of Balu and Ramgas corner 873 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,760 of a foreign field, we have reached that. 874 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:41,640 We have reached that stage because the. 875 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:47,600 Geo in geopolitics is Jio. Please stop your period. 876 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:55,280 So, yeah, I mean, it is that Asia Cup was probably the most 877 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,680 farcical tournament I I remember in a long time. 878 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:03,200 I mean, it was, it was as if there was one part of the 879 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,040 discourse, which was, oh, we'll boycott and we'll this and we'll 880 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,120 that. And you know, the, the other 881 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:14,840 part was we'll play and we'll profit off it and but we'll 882 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,600 behave as if we are having to do it. 883 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,200 While the tournament was maximized for 3I Pakistan 884 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,040 fixtures, you will have now have something called the Super 885 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,600 eights. You'll have super twelves is all 886 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,840 these new supers coming in which which Sussan brings us to again, 887 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:33,760 part Bangladesh and part is general subcontinental air to 888 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,160 our favorite place, all three of our favorite place, which is 889 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,760 Twitter. The reaction lately over the 890 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:44,240 last few years to BCCI rise and our general condescension 891 00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:48,280 towards our subcontinental neighbors is that there's a 892 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,400 sense of gloating that, you know, if we should be this way, 893 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,960 we should be condescending. We should, you know, talk down 894 00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:56,720 to Pakistanis. We should use derogate free 895 00:44:56,720 --> 00:44:59,960 terms if you repetitious for things they do and the way they 896 00:44:59,960 --> 00:45:03,440 live their lives. And there is obviously the 897 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,600 racism and the classism that comes from it. 898 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,120 Do you see in other parts of the world, one, is it happening in 899 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,280 the vacuum of social media and say, you know, within the 900 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,120 subcontinent, but say in other parts of the world where you 901 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,320 know, there is a more ready mingling of each other. 902 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:24,200 Do you see this creating fishers within, you know, between 903 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,840 members of certain communities, members of different 904 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,080 nationalities? Because how do you break what 905 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,680 you're saying on Twitter with what you're saying at the 906 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,880 grocery store? No, it is happening. 907 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,240 Are you, I'm sure you've heard examples in France about which 908 00:45:39,240 --> 00:45:41,720 football team do you support? Do you, do you, do you support 909 00:45:41,720 --> 00:45:43,120 Senegal? Do you support France? 910 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,640 You know, even somebody like Zinedine Zidane, you know, you 911 00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,400 know. Yeah, but the whole debate about 912 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,720 DLGS and we are his father who whose father purported at when 913 00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:55,920 the LGS this thing was there drug bar. 914 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,840 So this has been a debate in many countries where this kind 915 00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,600 of ethno nationalism has risen and ethno nationalism, 916 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,240 particularly in Europe has really risen in the, in the, in 917 00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:07,200 the, in the, in the past few in the past few years. 918 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,960 So, you know, if you were to look for parallels, there will 919 00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,240 be some parallels, but are there going to be absolutely exact 920 00:46:14,240 --> 00:46:17,320 parallels to where India is? No, I don't think that those 921 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,160 kind of those kind of parallels are there because India has a 922 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,040 particular history, a particular kind of political context and 923 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:25,240 the whole idea of the of the Indian. 924 00:46:25,240 --> 00:46:28,080 Subcontinent so. Fundamentally, if you were to, 925 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,960 if you were to dig slightly deeper, you would come to the 926 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,280 conclusion that the idea of Hindutva, which essentially 927 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,240 starts with in the first stage of Hindu Rashtra and then in the 928 00:46:37,240 --> 00:46:40,960 next stage is a Khan Bharat is incompatible with the idea of 929 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,760 modern South Asia. So if you're going to tell a 930 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,040 country that you cannot exist, if you tell Bangladesh that you 931 00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,560 cannot exist as an independent country or Nepal or Sri Lanka 932 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:52,320 or, or or Pakistan, then essentially how is it compatible 933 00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,400 with the idea? So I think that is what we are 934 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:56,920 grappling with in a, in a geopolitical sense. 935 00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,560 If you're asking me about South today's, today's South Asia. 936 00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:01,520 And Please remember, these countries are very young. 937 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,160 Bangladesh is what 55 years, 55 years old, 55 years old. 938 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:07,440 Pakistan is what, 7576 years old. 939 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,120 These are very young countries and these are very small 940 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,440 countries in South Asia. Now if you are a small neighbor. 941 00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:14,320 Dealing with a. Bigger neighbor. 942 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,880 The only way to build your nationalism is in opposition to 943 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,360 to the bigger neighbor. So you will. 944 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:24,840 Have but you are, you will be forced by your own national 945 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,000 identity to create that kind of nationalism, which will always 946 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:32,080 be like I'm standing up to my, you know, bigger to my to my, to 947 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,920 my bigger neighbor. That is the that is the nature 948 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,120 of of nationalism. That is the nature of 949 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:40,200 nationalism in in the in the, in these countries, in these 950 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:42,720 countries itself. So, so you know, the whole, the 951 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,480 whole, the whole thing interacts in a manner or acts in such a 952 00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:52,040 manner where it becomes where it becomes very difficult to, to 953 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:56,560 disengage or to disengage these various parts and go back, to go 954 00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:00,040 back to a past where our, you know, where our Twitter feeds, 955 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,320 the toxicity of our Twitter feeds and the toxicity of our 956 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,600 grocery stores or lived lives and. 957 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,680 What we are seeing the the daily lynchings and killings and the 958 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,200 kind of language should be that we that we use against other 959 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:15,280 people becomes a problem. So I learned this many years 960 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:16,920 back, as I said when I was with the UN. 961 00:48:17,240 --> 00:48:20,320 So I learned this very quickly that the Nepalese military 962 00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,200 officers did not like being told that Nepal is just like India. 963 00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,840 Because if you keep on saying that Nepal is just like India or 964 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,240 Bangladesh is just like India, then the whole question of why 965 00:48:29,240 --> 00:48:31,240 does this country exist comes into play. 966 00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:35,080 And so you have to be cognizant of not constantly emphasizing 967 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,600 and saying, oh, you are just like us and you are just like us 968 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:39,720 and you are just like us. Because if Nepal is just like 969 00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:42,240 us, then it then it should be the 30th state of the of India. 970 00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:43,600 It should not be an independent country. 971 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:45,360 But so. So you know, it becomes. 972 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,000 Very tricky. And the point that you started 973 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,040 with initially that the whole idea of India being this 974 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,160 patronizing kind of controlling figure in South in, in world 975 00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:57,600 cricket and trying to dominate then of course triggers those 976 00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:01,440 emotions, those kind of, you know, those, those, those kind 977 00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:05,080 of thoughts about is Twitter playing? 978 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:06,960 Is Twitter playing playing a role? 979 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,200 Yes, definitely. Social media has allowed 980 00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,800 barriers to be broken. Social media has allowed a kind 981 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,040 of, you know, even what we thought were fringe groups to 982 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:19,200 become mainstream to, to have voices to, to articulate the, 983 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:21,760 some of the, some of the kind of language or some of the emotions 984 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,680 which we thought were completely beyond the pale and would never 985 00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,080 ever feature. And this has happened globally. 986 00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:29,480 This is not just and this has not just happened in India. 987 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,480 In India, of course, the consequences have been far 988 00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,880 bigger and far more crazy. The kind of killings, lynchings 989 00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:37,840 of Muslims, targeting of Christian churches and, and 990 00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,840 pastors, religious minorities, targeting of Dalits, targeting 991 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,840 of tribals, the environmental degradation, etcetera that we 992 00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:45,760 see. That is clearly the 993 00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:47,440 consequences. I think in India have been much 994 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:50,240 bigger, although the, the country where I, where I 995 00:49:50,240 --> 00:49:53,680 currently reside, President Trump is trying his best to do 996 00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,360 things in Minnesota and other places, which is not far off 997 00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:00,000 from, from, from, from, from, from, from what we, from what we 998 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,920 see in India. So, you know, I, I, I think we 999 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,160 are dealing with a very tough, we are in a very tough space. 1000 00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,760 We are in a tough period, but it is in this these tough times and 1001 00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:12,480 in these very hard times that voices of sanity matter. 1002 00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,080 And that's why people, people like you and me, people like 1003 00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:18,520 you, Sardar, people like Sharda, people like others, these 1004 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:21,600 voices, Mukul Keswan, who's a very dear friend of mine, these 1005 00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,880 voices definitely matter. At this point in time, we need 1006 00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,760 to keep saying the right thing, irrespective of being, you know, 1007 00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,880 seen as kind of, you know, completely beyond the pale or 1008 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,080 not being not creating a getting a popular opinion. 1009 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,360 Because what is right will always remain right. 1010 00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,400 What is moral will always remain moral. 1011 00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:41,960 What is human will always remain human. 1012 00:50:42,720 --> 00:50:44,600 A lot of people ask this question, how would so and so 1013 00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:47,760 have behaved in Nazi Germany? And we know like you would have 1014 00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,240 behaved this you are behaving today, You would have not 1015 00:50:50,240 --> 00:50:53,080 behaved any of you would have not suddenly become some kind of 1016 00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:55,800 a glorious fighter if you were living in Nazi Germany. 1017 00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,840 So we need so I'm, I'm actually, there's a matter of great pride 1018 00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:02,320 that people like you and others do all this and say the right 1019 00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:03,960 things and speak up for the right values. 1020 00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,160 And that's I think something which which gives us hope. 1021 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,320 People like Prem, people like Sharla, people like, you know, 1022 00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,600 Mukul and you all. So that's that's something which 1023 00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:12,440 is which is really truly wonderful. 1024 00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,520 Anyone you know anyone you brought up in Germany? 1025 00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:18,520 Anyone talks the same question has been put so many times. 1026 00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:22,080 One of my favorite book links to send is Valkyrie. 1027 00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,920 And just to tell them the boss there were people within the s s 1028 00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:30,200 that wanted him gone. So please Speaking of US, 1029 00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:35,960 Sushant, I, I do feel this, this rise of BCCIS is overlord comes 1030 00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,120 at important time. the US has denied visa to sanitify 1031 00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:42,360 countries. Many of them will play the World 1032 00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:44,280 Cup this summer, including Haiti. 1033 00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:49,040 And all that the US has, like you said, is having massive, 1034 00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:52,240 massive protests and killings. Gun violence is a huge issue. 1035 00:51:52,240 --> 00:51:55,680 And yet the FIFA president is now the best friend of Donald 1036 00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:57,320 Trump. He's at the Oval Office 1037 00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:01,320 frequently. Similarly, we know how football 1038 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:03,600 is dealing with Saudi Arabia's incursion. 1039 00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:09,640 And you know, as much as you know, we show, we show 1040 00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:13,440 resentment towards what the BCCI has become and is becoming and 1041 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,840 how, you know, post 2014 post the big three cricket has 1042 00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:18,600 changed. How? 1043 00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:21,520 Do you? How do you create a global 1044 00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:26,400 enough riposte to the market, by which I mean the the resource 1045 00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:30,240 that the BCCI will never lose? It could lose 30 matches in a 1046 00:52:30,240 --> 00:52:33,600 row, lose all its sponsorships, completely run out of money. 1047 00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:37,720 It will never lose the billion people audience which will 1048 00:52:37,720 --> 00:52:41,000 generate it's own money. How do you make a feasible 1049 00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:45,720 reposs do that? Yeah, I think I've never really 1050 00:52:45,720 --> 00:52:46,920 given it a thought. Start again. 1051 00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:52,720 I really can't immediately think of, think of, think of what can 1052 00:52:52,720 --> 00:52:56,560 be done to, to counter this or to or to create a narrative. 1053 00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:00,160 Football because you raise and football, you know, for a long 1054 00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:04,080 time or IOC or golf, for example, have been really 1055 00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:07,120 notorious for what they have for, for the way they've been 1056 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,840 run and for the way they have conducted, conducted themselves. 1057 00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:12,640 The FIFA World Cup in US is under a lot of pressure. 1058 00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:14,680 I don't know if you, if you guys have seen the news that they've 1059 00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,000 been huge debates in Europe, whether Europe should even 1060 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,320 participate in, in the, in the next FIFA World Cup in, in, in 1061 00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:22,440 the United States. So those kind of debates and 1062 00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:24,840 those kind of questions are being, are being, are being, are 1063 00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:28,640 being, are being raised in US. So eventually the shift in India 1064 00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:33,520 will only come when people of our country get back to their 1065 00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:37,200 senses and you know this drug induced haze in which they are 1066 00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,960 living or at least a section of them or which gives 240 seats to 1067 00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,440 Mr. Modi in 2024. A section of that, a section of 1068 00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:49,520 that crowd goes out of that drug induced haze and goes back to 1069 00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:53,760 the same kind of sanity which defined us where, you know, 1070 00:53:54,240 --> 00:53:56,840 where we would believe in the right things and do the right 1071 00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:58,240 things. So you do the right thing 1072 00:53:58,240 --> 00:54:01,200 because you believe in them, not because not because just because 1073 00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,080 you're under pressure or somebody going to slap you down, 1074 00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:05,480 slap you down. And I think the dealing with the 1075 00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:08,680 market, the oligarchic structure of Indian, of Indian economy 1076 00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:12,000 where I don't know if you saw this fact couple of days back 1077 00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:15,880 that 50% of India's corporate tax revenue to the, to the, to 1078 00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,880 the, to the federal government, to the Union government comes 1079 00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:24,760 from .1% of corporates in India. That's 50% of so you know the. 1080 00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:28,560 Structure is so. Dominant in, in, in, in India 1081 00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:30,840 that, you know, even the whole business idea, the model of 1082 00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:34,680 business and, and what kind of support is, is, is there. 1083 00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:37,800 Eventually the people will have to people will have to wake up 1084 00:54:38,240 --> 00:54:40,960 from, from whatever his they are and whatever their, whatever 1085 00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:43,360 their consume. And only I think then we will be 1086 00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:46,760 able to be able to see it. As for the business model, you 1087 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,800 guys are already aware that the, that Jio is already wanted to 1088 00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:54,240 renegotiate the, the deal with, with ICC and even for the next 1089 00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:56,400 round of ICC rights, they're not willing to give the kind of 1090 00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,480 money that they gave this year because there's no competition. 1091 00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,360 So oligarchies and the, and the monopolies that are there in 1092 00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,720 India will have, will have its consequences, will have its 1093 00:55:04,720 --> 00:55:08,840 consequences, consequences for, for, for cricket, for cricket as 1094 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:10,600 well. But the larger shift will have 1095 00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,760 to come from a change in the global political environment and 1096 00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:15,920 within a change in Indian society and polity. 1097 00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:18,560 And that's, that's the only answer I can think of. 1098 00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:20,280 Lasting change will only come in that manner. 1099 00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:24,680 And do you, do you reckon that also kind of because usually 1100 00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:27,520 when you think of these single like, you know, monopolistic, 1101 00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:33,960 monopolistic identities, they, we think of them as doomed to 1102 00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:38,400 fail. And but do you reckon, do you 1103 00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:44,200 reckon that can be conveyed to cricket that, or that there is 1104 00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,800 even a sense that we don't need to price this product this 1105 00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,760 highly. We are doing it because we have 1106 00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:54,360 it. But is, is there a sense within 1107 00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:59,520 the sport that, you know, if all power has to rest within India 1108 00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:03,040 and partly with Australia and England, the amount of money 1109 00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:06,160 that's flowing in that's causing this kind of inequality is 1110 00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:09,560 almost in unnecessary. And thus there is maybe a shift 1111 00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:12,560 back to a level playing field, or that is a shift that sailed. 1112 00:56:14,240 --> 00:56:17,840 I think that ship has sailed. It was possible in 20/16/2017 1113 00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:20,480 where where England and Australia and others could have 1114 00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:22,480 come together. And I think you are referring to 1115 00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:25,960 a kind of a MM Carney speech at Davos where he said that the 1116 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:28,640 middle part would come together and stand up to the hegemonic 1117 00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,160 behaviour of the United States. Because if they don't, if 1118 00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,600 they're not on the, if they're, if they're not at the table, 1119 00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:35,720 then they're, then they will be on, they will be on the menu. 1120 00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:38,480 So I think that's, that's, that's exactly what's happening 1121 00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,320 with cricket as well. But in cricket, these middle 1122 00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:44,760 powers particularly, particularly I think South 1123 00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,920 Africa, England, Australia and West Indies have chosen 1124 00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,640 completely to be to be beholden to India and to accept India's, 1125 00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:55,240 you know this thing be India's lackeys in the in the world of 1126 00:56:55,240 --> 00:56:58,160 cricket and in that sense. So this idea of middle pass 1127 00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:00,840 banding together and standing up to India and trying to create an 1128 00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:05,120 alternative at this point in time seems seems far fetched, 1129 00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:07,280 seems clearly, clearly far fetched. 1130 00:57:07,720 --> 00:57:10,880 That window has gone, but windows can appear again, Indian 1131 00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:13,200 economy can go down, something else can happen. 1132 00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,680 You know, we don't know what can happen what can happen how you 1133 00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:18,400 don't know how, how first of all, first of all, what 1134 00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:19,960 happened? Somebody, somebody killed, 1135 00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,040 somebody fired a gun and you know, and then the whole, the 1136 00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,280 whole world went into war. So we really don't know what 1137 00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:27,400 what, what kind of changes, what can trigger what kind of changes 1138 00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:29,160 at what point in time. And especially if cricket 1139 00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:31,920 becomes popular in the United States or gets a share of money 1140 00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:35,040 out of here, how those how, how the business models change and 1141 00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:37,560 how and how things happen. But hoping that cricket 1142 00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:39,920 administrators in these other countries will will band 1143 00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:41,880 together and stand up to the BCCI. 1144 00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:45,400 As of now, it doesn't seem to be, it doesn't seem to be on the 1145 00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,640 horizon. But about the future Kesarasara, 1146 00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:52,880 what can we say? Kesarasara is a great note and 1147 00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:56,160 we. We generally don't end the part 1148 00:57:56,280 --> 00:58:02,640 without asking for any kind of recommendations, Books, YouTube 1149 00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:07,760 channels, whatever media you feel you're reading now. 1150 00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:16,560 Like sorry, is it, is it, should it be only cricket or should it 1151 00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:19,480 be we are? As political as it gets. 1152 00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:21,440 So you can see 3. OK. 1153 00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:29,160 If it is, if it is about a book, the, the recent book 2 books I 1154 00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:33,320 will recommend, one is slightly older, one is slightly newer. 1155 00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:39,360 There's a book called Leah Free by Leah AP Leah AP LEAHYPI. 1156 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:42,040 She's an academic in, in London now. 1157 00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:45,520 She grew up in Albania and this book is about her childhood in 1158 00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:47,280 Albania, which was under a communist regime. 1159 00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:51,240 And then of course, the Cold War ends and then she lives a later 1160 00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:55,960 part of a teenage etcetera in a, in a, in a neoliberal Albania. 1161 00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,240 So quite a lot of parallels with people like me who grew up in 1162 00:58:58,240 --> 00:58:59,920 India, which are more socialist and economic. 1163 00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:03,800 It's a it has been translated in some 1890 languages. 1164 00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:05,680 It's an award-winning book. It just came out a couple of 1165 00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:07,400 years back. The AAP is a star. 1166 00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:09,360 If you're not read it, you should read that book. 1167 00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:13,720 It is beautifully written both about his her journey of the 1168 00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:15,880 childhood income incoming to Sylvania and thereafter. 1169 00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:20,600 It's free by the AAP is one second book is is by my 1170 00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:25,120 colleague and my colleagues and friends at Yale by Rohit Day and 1171 00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:28,640 Honit Shani, a book called Assembling India's Constitution. 1172 00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:29,960 So you know. We have all. 1173 00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:32,840 Been told, and this came out very recently, only a couple of 1174 00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:36,000 months back, we have all been told that India's constitution 1175 00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:38,120 was made by the Constituent Assembly. 1176 00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:41,280 Rohit, who's a historian and on it, who's also a historian, 1177 00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:44,360 Rohit and on it show that actually there were massive 1178 00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:48,840 debates going in the public space based on what how 1179 00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:51,280 constitution was created. So because we've all focused on 1180 00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:53,960 the constituent assembly debates, we have not focused on 1181 00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:57,360 what was going around. And they have on earth archives 1182 00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:01,280 on earth documents to show that it was a very, you know, it was 1183 01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:02,720 a process where people were involved. 1184 01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:04,960 It was a people centric process where a lot of lot of things 1185 01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:07,600 were involved. So I could I would immediately, 1186 01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:10,640 I would immediately recommend recommend these two books. 1187 01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:16,960 And if anybody, if anybody's interested, anything that Sharda 1188 01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:20,400 writes on on spot, I always recommend people to people to 1189 01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:24,200 people to read that she, she, I absolutely, absolutely, 1190 01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:25,960 absolutely like what she, what she says. 1191 01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:28,480 And I don't say that because she's a friend, but definitely, 1192 01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:30,880 you know, and she's, she's perhaps the best that we have in 1193 01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:34,800 terms of what we have on spot. Sharda is the first voice in our 1194 01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:38,040 podcast header. When our podcast title track 1195 01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:39,400 starts, Sharda is the first voice. 1196 01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:44,640 And not to sound too grandiose, but to us, at least all of us at 1197 01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:47,640 PCC and clearly you, she'll be the first voice in Indian sports 1198 01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:51,280 writing like was, is, will be. Yeah, yeah. 1199 01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:53,640 You know, the fact I'm here is because of Sharda. 1200 01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:56,240 Like it's it's as simple as that. 1201 01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:58,160 So you respect for her what she writes. 1202 01:00:58,160 --> 01:00:59,960 And of course Prem is there. Mukul is there. 1203 01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:02,960 Lot of lot of good, lot of lot of good writers, people who are 1204 01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:06,840 actually writing in with about sport in a holistic manner and 1205 01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:09,400 not just about the technicalities because you see 1206 01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:11,560 it now, I'm sure you guys will see the newspaper. 1207 01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:14,920 Then you see people talking about 1.5° turn and three degree 1208 01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:17,520 turn and this is happening and that's all fine, but there's a 1209 01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:20,920 lot that's also happening along along along alongside. 1210 01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:23,880 So you know what that Clr James line, what do they know of 1211 01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:25,320 cricket? They only only the cricket know. 1212 01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:27,800 That's what essentially. Yeah, that's what. 1213 01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:30,760 And Mike Marquez, I'm sure you guys have discussed the book on 1214 01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:32,040 your on your part. I don't want to say that. 1215 01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:33,160 Yeah, every single. Part. 1216 01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:36,240 It's a thing. We have to actually when when 1217 01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:38,400 you're. Discussing 1996 World Cup I I 1218 01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:40,080 was very careful. I should, I should not go 1219 01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:42,680 towards the Mike Marquez the argument and start quoting from 1220 01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:44,080 his experience in the ferocia court law. 1221 01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:45,840 But, you know, yeah. We. 1222 01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:47,520 We. Quote from it all the time, 1223 01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:49,920 Sushant. In every book it's man what a. 1224 01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:51,280 What a book. What a book. 1225 01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:54,720 Things he. Saw in 94 and he perceived in 94 1226 01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:56,760 and he wrote that book on that because they're talking. 1227 01:01:57,120 --> 01:01:58,800 Because we are. Talking cricket, I think. 1228 01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:02,360 I'm sure you guys know this, that Osman Samyuddin piece on 1229 01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:05,000 hall in Pakistani cricket of course. 1230 01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:07,160 Of course, but I. Don't think there's a greater 1231 01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:08,560 piece of cricket writing than that. 1232 01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:15,680 Yes, that piece is. That essay is like, worth its 1233 01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:17,600 written code. Nothing captures it. 1234 01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:20,760 It captures everything about South Asia, about how we feel 1235 01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:24,240 about sport, about television. That hard piece is by Osman. 1236 01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:24,880 Yes. Have you? 1237 01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:27,200 Read. His recent essay on Imran. 1238 01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:29,960 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the equator now. 1239 01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:33,040 Yes, yes, yes, yeah. And even his book was good. 1240 01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:36,120 But that hard piece, you know, sometimes some people, that hard 1241 01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:37,920 piece like really blew me completely. 1242 01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:39,520 Like I was like, wow, this is something else. 1243 01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:42,720 Yes. Have you by any chance been 1244 01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:47,040 following his Co conspirators YouTube channel? 1245 01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:51,240 But a fast because we are big fans of Amer as well. 1246 01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:54,480 And, and I think what Amer does in storytelling in cricket, I 1247 01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:57,240 think there's pretty much nobody like that as well. 1248 01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:00,520 Yeah. Unfortunately I'm not, I'm not 1249 01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:02,760 following Amber's podcast, but I was in touch with Amber. 1250 01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:05,120 Amber was trying to write something for a Pakistani 1251 01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:08,080 newspaper and wanted some quotes from me etcetera. 1252 01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:09,480 I was only in touch with Amber for that. 1253 01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:12,920 I will try and look for it but a fast I'll try and look for it 1254 01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:15,400 and see that. But I hope you guys are seeing 1255 01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:20,400 Muhammad Hanif's you know, V logs in Punjabi on BBC. 1256 01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:23,240 If you have not seen that Mohammad Hanif, who wrote that, 1257 01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:27,200 who did that great satirical novel about, you know, a case, a 1258 01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:29,520 case full of mangoes about Zia's death. 1259 01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:33,240 And you know, it's a, it's a satirical novel Great. 1260 01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:35,520 He's a great satirist and a great writer. 1261 01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:40,160 You have to see those very short vlogs he does at BBC in, in 1262 01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:42,200 Punjabi on, on, on various issues. 1263 01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:46,760 He did one on AR Rahman. This thing you know, Hanif is 1264 01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:48,760 Hanif is Hanif. And again, another level. 1265 01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:52,800 Another level altogether. Fantastic. 1266 01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:57,600 On that note, thank you so much Sushant for coming on the point. 1267 01:03:57,600 --> 01:03:59,840 Thank you so much. Sushant, it was so good. 1268 01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:02,720 And yeah, thank you guys. And it was like really 1269 01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:04,480 wonderful. I really enjoyed myself as you 1270 01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:06,560 can make out. I'm sure you we had, we had 1271 01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:09,080 great fun. I had, I had great fun chatting 1272 01:04:09,080 --> 01:04:11,880 with you and talking to you and all the all the best to you 1273 01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:13,720 guys. And I genuinely admire what you 1274 01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:15,720 do. And I and I appreciate that you 1275 01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:18,600 do this in these times and become the voice of sanity about 1276 01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:22,000 the sport and trying to bring value to Indian society and to 1277 01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:24,040 and to India as a as a as a country. 1278 01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:25,400 Thank you so much for all that you do. 1279 01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:26,000 Yeah. Thanks a lot. 1280 01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:28,720 Thank you so much for coming over, Sushant. 1281 01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:30,400 We'll be in touch. We'll keep talking to you. 1282 01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:33,480 That's four in a. Row there is good. 1283 01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:38,400 They're gonna blow next in the prodigal son, Turn the fire gets 1284 01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:42,240 a second hundred in successive romantic style. 1285 01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:44,600 The whole of Bengal are on their feet. 1286 01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:49,680 Not that important. He's gone the next ball. 1287 01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:53,200 The dream is diminished for Carlos Pratwin. 1288 01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:54,960 Favourable scenes here.