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This is geology B with Oliver's 
trampled. 

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The lithium-ion battery was 
invented about 40 years ago and 

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is now commonplace in a range of
products from smartphones to 

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electric cars. 
But if we are to meet the carbon

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emission goals, that governments
are setting electrification and 

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with it, the need for 
electricity storage will 

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increase dramatically. 
Although many new electricity 

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storage methods are being 
developed. 

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None are as mature as the 
lithium-ion battery which will 

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therefore need to be a major 
part. 

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Part of a carbon-free 
infrastructure. 

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Catherine. 
Good enough is principal 

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geologist at the British 
Geological Survey. 

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She studies the geology of 
critical raw materials and 

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particularly of lithium. 
She's the principal investigator

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for the lithium for future 
technology and international 

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Consortium. 
That investigates all type of 

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lithium deposits and how they 
can be extracted sustainably. 

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Katherine, good enough. 
Welcome to geology B. 

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Thanks very much, Oliver, thank 
you for having me. 

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Let's start with some basics. 
What exactly is lithium. 

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Lithium is a metal. 
In fact, it's the latest of All 

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Metals, it has an atomic number 
of just three what properties 

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make it. 
So useful for making 

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high-capacity batteries or 
lithium is unusual because it's 

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very reactive. 
Many of us may have seen lithium

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in our school chemistry labs and
seeing what happens to it when 

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it comes into contact with water
for example it releases its 

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electrons very easily and that 
means that it has a Excellent, 

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electrical conductivity and low 
resistivity. 

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So it's very useful for using 
batteries and do. 

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There's nothing else quite like 
it. 

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So how does lithium occur 
naturally in the earth? 

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Well because it's so reactive. 
It doesn't occur as just 

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Elemental, lithium in rocks. 
It forms a whole range of 

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different minerals. 
So those minerals are compounds,

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they might contain a lot of 
silica, for example, or a lot of

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phosphate and it's a very 
wide-ranging family. 

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Of these naturally occurring, 
lithium minerals with unusual 

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names that Spud, you mean Peta, 
light, and bigger night and 

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lepidolite. 
But even in rocks that are less 

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rich in lithium, you will find 
small amounts of lithium where 

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it substitutes for other 
elements, such as magnesium in 

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more common minerals, and then 
in water, lithium ions are very 

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soluble. 
So lithium can also occur in 

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brines and indeed. 
In the seawater, there's quite a

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substantial amount of lithium. 
So in the seawater, is it also 

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in the form of chemical 
compounds or is it in a pure 

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ionic State? 
Yes, your occurs in my your next

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date and you can also get 
formation of lithium salts like 

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lithium chloride. 
If we're mining lithium in the 

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form of one of these exotic 
sounding minerals that you 

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mentioned we still have to 
actually extract the lithium 

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itself from the mineral. 
That's right. 

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This is a large part of mining 
when you go to my Lithium what 

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you actually do is dig up a 
rock, which contains lithium 

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minerals and a whole range of 
other minerals. 

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Then you have to separate the 
lithium minerals from the other 

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minerals and create a lithium 
mineral concentrate. 

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But even that concentrate may 
only contain a few percent of 

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lithium. 
Then we've actually got to break

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open that mineral concentrate 
usually using significant 

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amounts of chemicals and 
actually remove the lithium from

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the mineral and then will 
produce a chemical such as a 

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pure lithium carbonate or 
lithium hydroxide, which can 

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then be used in the battery 
supply chain. 

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So mining is really only the 
very first step. 

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There's usually a lot of mineral
processing to be done afterwards

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if you're mining, lithium from a
brine that mineral processing is

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perhaps a bit easier but there 
is still an element of mineral 

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processing. 
That's simply can't be avoided. 

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Does it take a lot of energy to 
prize? 

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Lithium out of the minerals. 
It does indeed take either a lot

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of energy or some very strong 
chemicals, or both and 

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researches on going to try and 
develop better ways of 

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processing. 
These minerals. 

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I want to ask you about the 
geological settings in which we 

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find lithium and you've already 
mentioned the see, what about 

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though, mythological or Rock 
based settings. 

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The main source of lithium. 
If you like from Hard Rock's is 

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in granitic pegmatites. 
It's pegmatites are very 

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coarse-grained. 
Igneous rocks. 

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They're typically granitic and 
composition and they can be 

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found all over the world. 
Most commonly in areas where 

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you've had crustal thickening, 
due to mountain, building 

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pegmatites can just be quartz 
feldspar and not a lot else, but

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a small subset of pegmatites are
lithium enriched, and that's the

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major source of hard rock 
lithium. 

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We do also find this I am in 
sedimentary sources. 

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So what would have been ancient 
basins that might have had 

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lithium enriched brines 
circulating in them? 

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And in those areas we can get 
lithium in lithium enriched 

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Clays or in boring minerals and 
then also brine. 

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Exactly Brian's are a very 
important source of lithium and 

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there's two main types of 
brains. 

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The one that's currently used 
for extraction. 

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The lithium is Brian's in the 
salt. 

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Lakes chiefly, in South America,
where you have closed basins in 

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which binds rich in lithium 
concentrate, and then solar 

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evaporation in an area. 
That's particularly dry leads to

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the concentration of the lithium
and then you can extract from 

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these what I really salty 
Waters, you can extract the 

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lithium the other opportunity is
where you have, what's called 

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geothermal or perhaps oilfield 
brains, where you have Brian 

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circulating. 
The Rogues. 

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And those may also be enriched 
in lithium in certain settings. 

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For example, here in the UK, we 
have frien's and Cornwall that 

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are known to be enriched in 
lithium circulating in what were

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quite, lithium and Rich, 
granite's. 

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And those are also a potential 
source of lithium, but those 

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geothermal Brains, it's harder 
to get the lithium out of them 

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because, of course, you can't 
use solar evaporation as a 

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technique. 
So there's been a lot of 

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research in recent years, to 
develop. 

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Philip what's known as direct 
lithium extraction but you can 

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remove the lithium from those 
brines without having to 

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concentrate it by evaporation 
first. 

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So do The Brines get their 
lithium by leaching out rocks, 

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either the pegmatites or the 
sedimentary rocks. 

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So that's a really good question
and one that I think we don't 

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fully know the answer to. 
But what seems most likely is 

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that the brains get their 
lithium, and this is the case 

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whether we're talking about the 
Salazar, The, we're talking 

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about geothermal brains, they 
get their lithium by leaching, 

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lithium out of very large 
volumes of not, especially 

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lithium enriched rocks. 
So for example, in South America

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in the sellers, The Watershed 
surrounding them are typically, 

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volcanic frogs because much of 
the Andes is a chain of 

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volcanoes formed above a 
subduction zone and these 

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volcanic rocks will contain some
lithium but it's not enriched 

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enough to be economic in the 
Rocks. 

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But If you have ground water 
circulating and surface water 

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circulating and leeching all the
lithium that is in those rocks 

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and then collecting in a closed 
Basin that can be enough to 

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generate enrichment of lithium 
in the brains essentially, 

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because the lithium ions are so 
soluble in the water that they 

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would far rather be in the water
than in the Rock and so they 

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will go into the water fairly 
quickly. 

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Okay, let's talk a bit more 
about the geological processes 

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that concentrate. 
The lithium in the highwomen. 

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Drock cases. 
First of all, the Pegman titik, 

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granitic rocks the way that you 
get lithium into a granitic 

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magma, is by melting sedimentary
rocks that were themselves in 

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which their lithium exactly what
type of sedimentary rocks. 

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Those are we're still not have 
to say, completely clear. 

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And then once you've melted 
those sedimentary rocks, there's

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a big question around. 
How lithium pegmatite They are 

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formed, and there's two possible
answers, when is you have a 

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large volume of magma, that 
forms a granite body. 

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And that Granite starts to 
crystallize that you get 

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fractional crystallization so 
your magma revolves and the 

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lithium remains in that magma. 
While everything else is 

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crystallizing until you have a 
very, very lithium enriched, 

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kind of residual magma and that 
forms the pegmatites. 

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That's one possibility. 
The other possibility is that 

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actually as soon as you get 
melting off of lithium and Rich 

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sedimentary rocks these 
relatively small amounts of melt

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can gather together in the crust
and form, the relatively small 

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bodies that are pegmatites. 
And when I say relatively small,

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they're usually tends, perhaps 
hundreds of meters thick at 

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most, and they might extend for 
hundreds of meters to a 

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kilometer or so that's quite 
small by geological standards. 

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So we don't really understand 
exactly what the process is. 

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We know that the must be a 
lithium rich source, probably a 

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sedimentary rock that melts 
because the crust is being 

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placed under compression and 
being heated in a mountain belt.

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And then that must form a magma 
that has lithium in it. 

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And then there are a couple of 
different ways in which that 

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magma could potentially evolve 
to produce lithium in which 

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pegmatites. 
So I think the real answer is, 

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there's quite a lot, we don't 
know. 

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So seems like Of this ignorance.
If you like extends back to the 

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sedimentary rocks themselves, 
which is one of the explanations

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for the source of the lithium in
your magnetic granite's. 

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So do we know how sedimentary 
rocks to get enriched in their, 

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lithium content again, there was
some uncertainty, there's no 

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doubt about that. 
We can see what's going on at 

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the moment. 
Of course, the present is the 

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key to the past and we can see 
the current sellers in the Andes

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and we can imagine that if they 
weren't having having their 

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lithium extracted. 
Then those would sit there as 

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Salt Lakes and they would 
eventually form solids or layers

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in the geological record and 
those solid sort layers would be

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imaged in lithium, of course, 
that type of layer can be 

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recognized in some places in the
geological record and perhaps we

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can see that in these cases 
there is enrichment and lithium.

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But of course the Salt, Lake's 
are relatively unusual because 

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of the solar evaporation, you 
need to form them. 

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What's much more likely is it in
most cases? 

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We've got lithium being washed 
into more ordinary Lakes where 

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it's being deposited in 
association with Clay minerals 

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and that gives you the 
sedimentary rocks that we see 

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for example in Nevada. 
Tesla has talked about 

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potentially getting involved in 
mining. 

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So we understand how you might 
form those lithium in which 

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Clays. 
But then of course, what happens

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to those when they get 
compressed and heated and 

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eventually Melted in a mountain 
belt, we don't actually know at 

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the moment. 
What a lithium enrich clay would

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look like once it's become 
metamorphosed and partially 

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melted. 
The other thing that we're still

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trying to understand is that 
some of the most important 

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sedimentary deposits of lithium 
like particularly the yard are 

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deposit in Serbia. 
These may be original 

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sedimentary rocks that may have 
had some lithium enrichment but 

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that then had Hydrothermal brine
circulating through them and 

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enriching them further in 
lithium for example in Nevada, 

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the lithium enriched Clay's are 
actually in a volcanic setting 

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and so we would have had for 
chemic Waters. 

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If you like that might have had 
lithium in them. 

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Circulating amongst these Clays,
do the various minerals in which

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the lithium manifest itself. 
Give us any clues as to how the 

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lithium got there. 
They give us some Clues and in 

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particular the There's been a 
lot of really good experimental 

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work done to show you, exactly, 
which of the lithium minerals, 

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you get depends on the pressure 
and temperature. 

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So for example, there's two 
major minerals, what you mean 

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and Petty light that you find in
pegmatites and of those Peta. 

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Light is formed at higher 
temperatures than spot. 

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You mean is so you can estimate 
something about the 

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temperatures, they formed out, 
and the depths that they formed 

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at from the minerals that you 
can see. 

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But one of the things that is 
really interesting about lithium

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Closes is this idea of 
hydrothermal fluids circulating 

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that contain lithium and we see 
that consistently the brains, of

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course, hydrothermal fluids 
themselves and in sedimentary 

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deposits and in pegmatites, we 
see evidence of these 

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hydrothermal fluids circulating 
and altering the original 

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00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,700
minerals. 
And as a result, the original 

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processes by which either the 
sedimentary deposit or the 

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pegmatite formed have been 
obliterated by later. 

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The hydrothermal alteration. 
Let's talk about the commercial 

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extraction of lithium. 
Do we extract it from all three 

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other? 
Contexts, you mentioned, 

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pegmatite sedimentary rocks and 
Brian's at the moment. 

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Pretty much all of the words. 
Lithium comes from pegmatites 

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and from Brian's. 
The brains are largely mind in 

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South America, particularly in 
Chile and Argentina. 

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Although there is also some 
brine extraction in other 

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countries, particularly China 
and the SA. 

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Pegmatites our mind in 
particular in Australia. 

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Again, there is some mining in 
China from pegmatites and also a

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few other countries. 
Currently, we are not extracting

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any lithium on a commercial 
basis from sedimentary deposits.

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Although, it's looking very 
likely that that will change 

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quite soon. 
So, particularly in Nevada, and 

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in Serbia, there are big and now
World characterized sedimentary 

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deposits that are moving. 
Towards development. 

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And also there's currently no 
commercial scale extraction of 

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lithium from geothermal brains. 
But again, that's something that

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is moving fairly rapidly towards
development. 

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As our demand for lithium 
increases dramatically. 

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As we expect certainly within a 
decade where is the additional 

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lithium going to come from. 
So at the moment, it's coming 

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from ramp up of existing 
production more production from 

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Then I was in South America and 
increased production in 

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particular from pegmatites in 
Western Australia, but it is 

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very likely that we're going to 
see increasing, diversity of the

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types of deposits that are being
mined, and the locations of the 

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deposits that that are being 
mined. 

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There are lithium pegmatites on 
every continent. 

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I don't expect, we'll be seeing 
any mining in Antarctica anytime

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soon, but I think it's 
reasonable to think that all 

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other continents will have 
lithium pegmatites being mined 

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to a reasonable scale within a 
decade or two. 

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It's very likely that we will 
see some of these big 

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sedimentary deposits being mind.
Certainly Rio Tinto has 

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recently, committed quite a lot 
of money to developing his had 

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our deposit in Serbia, and then,
of course, the geothermal 

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Brian's, if the Technologies can
be developed to do that. 

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Really well to actually be able 
to extract lithium directly from

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geothermal Brian's, perhaps in. 
With geothermal power plants, 

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then that has the potential to 
be a really excellent way of 

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obtaining, some of our lithium. 
So there is enough lithium out 

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there to meet our projected 
demand, there is absolutely no 

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shortage of lithium and what's 
more, we know many of the places

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that we could go to mine, it 
scarcity of lithium and the 

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crust is not really an issue. 
The issues that we have at the 

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moment are much more social 
environmental, their engineering

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issues their economic Issues to 
actually open a mine takes 10 

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years. 
First of all, you have to really

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understand the resource that you
have, you have to bring in 

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investment to get that funded. 
You have to develop your flow, 

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sheets for mineral processing 
and you have to find somebody 

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who's willing to buy whatever 
product it is that you can make 

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often a mineral concentrate for 
example, and to do all of that 

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to get the investment in line 
with the setup of the 

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engineering. 
And with all of the Into a 

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00:17:11,808 --> 00:17:15,900
permitting. 
And so on takes a long while and

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right now we're expecting 
lithium demand to increase 

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significantly. 
But we're not seeing new mines 

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opening at the same rate. 
So many of the commentators I 

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saying that we might see issues 
around Supply in the short term 

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00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:35,000
which would drive higher prices 
which would then drive opening 

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00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,200
of new mines. 
So the issues are not anything 

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00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,400
to do with scarcity. 
The issues are around. 

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How we manage the environmental 
impacts, how we manage the 

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00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:46,500
economics, how we manage the 
engineering? 

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00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,800
There have been some much 
publicized cases of lithium ion 

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00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,100
batteries, Catching Fire, but 
the problem seems to be never 

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00:17:55,100 --> 00:17:58,800
come nonetheless, there is 
always scope for future 

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00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,000
Improvement in battery capacity,
speed of charging longevity, and

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00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:08,100
so on, do you think lithium will
at some point be displaced by 

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new battery technologies? 
There is obviously a A lot of 

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00:18:11,900 --> 00:18:15,100
research going on and a lot of 
interest in developing new 

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00:18:15,100 --> 00:18:18,900
battery technologies, but I 
think the really important point

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00:18:18,900 --> 00:18:21,200
is that whatever technology is 
being used. 

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00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,900
It's going to need raw 
materials, whether we need 

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sodium, whether we need 
Vanadium, whether we need 

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lithium, whichever room 
materials we use. 

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00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,500
We're going to need some raw 
materials for batteries for 

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00:18:34,500 --> 00:18:39,200
energy storage and those raw 
materials at least at first are 

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00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,400
going to have to be mind because
there is no other way of 

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00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,300
producing them. 
Recycling can become important 

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00:18:45,300 --> 00:18:48,400
down the track when there's a 
lot of batteries in use and 

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available for recycling, but at 
first, we're going to have to 

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mine them. 
So mining is going to be really 

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important, whatever technology 
becomes the leading technology 

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for Batteries Catherine. 
Good enough. 

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Thank you very much. 
Thank you Oliver. 

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It's interesting talking to you.
for more about geology b, as 

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00:19:08,300 --> 00:19:11,600
well as pictures and 
illustrations, that support this

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00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,200
podcast, you can go to geology 
B.com