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This is geology B with all of us
Rumple. 

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So far, almost all the mapping 
of Mars has been performed using

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data from spacecraft in orbit 
around Mars, while Imaging 

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instruments aboard, these craft 
can now obtain an impressive 

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resolution of 25 cm converting, 
the imagery into a geological 

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map requires ground-truthing. 
The data that is making the 

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connection between satellite 
image features and what they 

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correspond to on the surface. 
The most reliable way of doing 

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that is to identify an actual 
corresponding rock. 

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Sample on the ground on Earth. 
We can just organized a field 

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trip to the location in 
question, look at the Rock 

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closely. 
Perhaps using a hand lens and 

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take it back to a lab where we 
can bring to bear powerful 

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chemical analysis and dating 
techniques But on Mars, at least

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so far, we need to land a 
robotic Rover. 

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Katie stack is Deputy project 
scientist for perseverance and 

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NASA rover that landed in j0. 
Crater on Mars in February 20 21

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a geologist by training. 
She has been mapping the geology

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of Mars since the 2000s. 
Katie stock. 

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Welcome to geology B. 
Thank you. 

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I'm so happy to be here today. 
It's hard enough. 

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Making a geological map of 
Earth. 

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But how do you go about making 
such a map of Mars? 

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There are some similarities and 
some differences. 

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But our main data sets instead 
of our eyes and walking around 

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in the field as we would do on 
Earth. 

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It's a photo geologic exercise. 
And so we use Orbiter images and

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as you mentioned they're quite 
good. 

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Resolution 25 cm per pixel. 
And we use those images as well 

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as digital elevation models. 
Produced from stereo pairs of 

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those images to give us 
topography. 

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It's our job to try to take what
we see with our eyes in those 

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photos of the surface of Mars 
drape it on top of and over the 

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Topography of Mars and try to 
determine what geologic units, 

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are present on the surface. 
Before we get to perseverance, I

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can't resist asking a kind of 
broader. 

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Ideological question about Mars.
We all know about the volcanoes 

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and in fact that Olympus Mons is
probably the biggest volcano in 

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the solar system, but are there 
other mountain ranges on Mi 

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anything? 
Resembling the kind of orogenic 

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belts we have on Earth, not 
really? 

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And that's an interesting thing 
about Mars and what makes it 

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different from Earth in a lot of
ways, as far as we understand, 

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it, Mars didn't have plate 
tectonics, so, Don't get the 

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creation of that kind of 
topography in those kinds of 

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mountain belts. 
But we did have structural 

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events occurring in Mars is 
history. 

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And so while we may not have 
those big mountain belts, we 

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have vast, Canyons Valles. 
Marineris is the best example, 

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the largest canyon system that 
we know of and the size of the 

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United States. 
Also, the other difference, we 

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have geologically on Mars is the
role and preservation of impact 

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cratering impacts have so much 
shaped the surface of Mars and 

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what it looks like and we have 
images of these. 

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Soaring crater rims and the 
deposits that form within these 

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craters, let's get back to 
perseverance. 

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What instruments does it have 
that are relevant to the geology

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on Mars? 
As we have a very exciting Suite

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of Science in geology 
instruments on this Rover 

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perseverance, we think of, as a 
roving astrobiologist, it can 

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make those basic fundamental 
geological observations because 

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we have context cameras that can
image the landscape from far 

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away. 
But also Very much up close. 

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And we have the next version of 
the Mars hand lens, imager. 

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That was, on the Curiosity 
Rover, we have a very similar 

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camera on perseverance. 
It's called Watson and that, of 

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course, assists in building 
geologic context, but we also 

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have the ability to view the 
surface of Mars with the 

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perseverance instrument payload 
in other parts of the 

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electromagnetic spectrum, 
different wavelengths. 

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And that's ranging, from the 
pixel instrument that uses 

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x-rays to study, the composition
of the surface to are visible 

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and near-infrared. 
Infrared multispectral cameras 

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that can reveal more about the 
chemistry and mineralogy of the 

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surface. 
I should also mention if we're 

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talking about geology 
instruments, a brand new 

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instrument is the rim, facts, 
instrument, that uses 

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ground-penetrating radar to see 
into the subsurface and that's 

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an exciting new capability. 
Especially from a geology 

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perspective, as we look to build
the stratigraphic context in 

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depositional context for the 
rocks that we see at the 

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surface, how far can you 
penetrate? 

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It depends on the Ariel, but up 
to 10 to 20 meters below the 

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surface. 
That's amazing. 

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Yep. 
When we spoke before, I think 

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you also mentioned a microphone.
Yes, we have a microphone riding

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along with the super cam 
instrument, which is an 

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instrument Suite on the master 
the road or the head of the 

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Rover. 
And we can turn that microphone 

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on to hear the sound of the 
super camel. 

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Laser basically a blading 
zapping the surface of Mars, and

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we're using that sound. 
To better understand the 

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material properties of the rocks
and materials that were zapping.

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And we can also learn about the 
atmosphere, as well as the sound

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travels through the air in the 
atmosphere to get from the 

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surface to Supercat microphone. 
And so we are able to engage 

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another sense for the first time
on the surface of Mars. 

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We see and now we can hear on 
the surface. 

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So let me see if I understand 
this. 

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So you zap a rock with a laser, 
it then suffered some kind of a 

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explosion or something. 
You then pick up with a 

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microphone? 
Well, I would say it's not quite

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as exciting perhaps as an 
explosion would make it sound, 

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but we use a technique called 
lid. 

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So laser-induced breakdown, 
spectroscopy, where we have the 

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super Kim instrument fires, the 
laser at the surface of Mars and

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we essentially turn that rock or
soil into a plasma and then we 

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have a spectrometer in the super
cam instrument that analyzes 

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that plasma and looks at the 
composition of that plasma. 

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And that's how we figure out 
what elements are. 

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Are present in the rocks or soil
is that we're studying but when 

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we do that zap when we do that 
ablation and turn the rock or 

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soil into the plasma, it makes a
sound and we can hear that sound

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with a super cat microphone. 
It's very early days till I 

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realize. 
But what have you seen so far 

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with these instruments? 
Yes. 

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Well we've seen rocks, lots of 
rocks and lots of sand and 

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that's as expected in Jezreel 
crater, which is the now home of

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the perseverance for over the 
crater itself is home to a 

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Deposit that we think was formed
when an ancient river entered 

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jezza, row, crater, and 
deposited, those sediments and 

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then we have the crater floor, 
which is where perseverance 

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landed and we talked a little 
bit about geologic mapping and 

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this is now one of the most 
mapped craters, any time we send

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a mission to Mars, that area 
becomes the focus of many 

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geologic, mapping efforts. 
So we've thought for years about

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what these Rock units represent.
And there was a lot of debate 

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about the crater floor. 
Some folks thought it Might be 

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volcanic every time we see a 
heavily cratered surface on 

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Mars. 
Many folks think of Mars as a 

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volcanic basaltic planet. 
And so there's often an 

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assumption, that every cratered 
surface. 

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We see is an ancient lava flow, 
but more recently, especially 

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fed into by new observations, 
from the Curiosity, Rover, and 

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Gale Crater where we have 
exclusively almost exclusively 

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sedimentary rocks. 
We're learning that. 

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Maybe that distinction isn't 
quite as easy to make as we 

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might have thought it was. 
So other folks thought that the 

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crater floor could be 
sedimentary. 

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We are after all In an impact, 
crater with a Delta and an 

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ancient Lake. 
And so perhaps these rocks are 

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ancient Lake sediments and so we
went into the landing of the 

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perseverance Rover. 
With this big question are these

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rocks? 
Volcanic, are they sedimentary? 

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Or are they something else 
impact i'ts or something like 

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that. 
When we've landed, we found 

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rocks that appear to be 
relatively fine grained, but we 

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still are asking ourselves. 
Are they volcanic or are they 

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sedimentary? 
And we are still in the process 

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of getting our instruments. 
It's online and operational. 

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As we bring on some of our 
instruments that can see the 

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Rocks up close and personal. 
I think we'll make more advances

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there on that question, but it 
is the big question and it's 

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one. 
We're still asking even though 

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we're on the surface right now, 
that is amazing. 

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That with all this incredible 
technology there, you haven't 

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been able to answer the most 
basic question about these 

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rocks. 
If you have the sample of this 

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rock in your hand here on Earth,
How hard would it be for you to 

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identify it? 
Yeah, you know that's a great 

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question and almost isn't a fair
question because we can bring to

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bear when we as people and 
geologist and humans are looking

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at a rock something, that's as 
simple as simply taking the 

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Rock, and turning it to get a 
different lighting condition or 

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changing our point of view on 
the rock or moving it closer to 

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our eyes or further away. 
Those are such simple things for

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us to do. 
My guess is that if I was 

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holding this rock in my hand, I 
dunno. 

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Maybe give myself Couple minutes
just to be sure but then I'd 

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probably have a pretty good 
sense but it really speaks to 

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the challenges. 
I think of doing, geology 

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remotely and every motion or 
every approach you take to a 

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rock, is something that you have
to tell our robotic Explorer to 

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do and lighting isn't always 
favorable. 

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Sometimes you have shadows in 
the way and you have to work 

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around that and of course, the 
fine-grained rock, whether it's 

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a Basalt or a fine-grained 
siltstone or mudstone or fine. 

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Sandstone, you have to really 
think what The observations at 

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the limits of resolution that 
your instruments, allow you to 

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see that would allow you to 
distinguish one from the other 

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and also the bar has to be very 
high for confirming an 

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interpretation. 
So it's good to have healthy 

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skepticism. 
I think what we've seen over the

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course of the eight and a half 
years that the Curiosity Rover 

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has been on the surface of Mars 
is that you have this 

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uncertainty in the beginning. 
You're in a brand new place 

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you've never seen these rocks 
before and we've only been to a 

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handful of places on Mars to 
begin with. 

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And so it takes a little while 
for To calibrate our eyes and 

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our expectations and build up 
that geologic context. 

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That feeds into making an 
observation of the origin of 

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Iraq. 
But once we get a couple miles 

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under the wheels, and we've been
in at the Landing site for a 

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while. 
I'm going to guess that we'll 

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look back on these rocks and 
say, well, of course, they were 

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this and, you know, we just 
needed a little bit of time to 

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work through it. 
It's all part of the Natural, 

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Evolution of doing robotic, 
geology, and remote geology. 

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Yes. 
That time. 

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She brings me to my question is 
to what the overall geological 

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Objectives of the mission are 
yes. 

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Well, perseverance is the first 
step in a potential Mars sample,

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return effort to bring samples 
from Mars, back to Earth. 

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The fundamental questions we 
have about Mars and its history.

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And whether there was ever Life 
on Mars, really need to be 

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answered here, Labs on Earth and
using the full set of analytical

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capabilities that we have here. 
There's a limit to what you can 

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miniaturize and said to another 
planet and have it be robust 

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enough to work. 
It can take some very sensitive.

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To determine whether something 
is indeed a bio Signature Sign 

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of ancient life and we see that 
in our own study of the ancient 

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earth rock record. 
It's quite contentious. 

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Sometimes whether we're looking 
at evidence for ancient life and

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so perseverance is role is to 
collect the samples. 

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And so we have a sampling and 
caching system that allows us to

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collect Rock and soil samples 
about 50 grams per sample tube. 

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We have 43 tubes that we carry 
with us, some of which are 

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controller, witness tubes, we 
call them, but we're aiming to 

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To collect about 30 geological 
samples. 

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And so, because perseverance has
this role in Mars sample, 

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return. 
We are looking for a special 

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Suite of samples from Mars. 
That will help us address. 

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Whether there was ancient life 
on the surface of Mars at some 

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point in the past and to 
understand the evolution of the 

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planet. 
From a time when it was 

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habitable to the time where 
today it is no longer habitable,

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we talk about the logistics of 
the mission. 

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00:12:10,100 --> 00:12:12,900
How do you actually go about 
achieving? 

229
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,200
Seeing these objectives. 
I guess you're planning from day

230
00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,500
to day, week, to week month, to 
month, year to year. 

231
00:12:19,300 --> 00:12:23,000
We tackle it at different scales
both spatially but also 

232
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,000
temporarily. 
We've already started. 

233
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,200
And before perseverance, even 
arrived on Mars. 

234
00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,300
We were thinking about our 
strategic long-term planning of 

235
00:12:30,300 --> 00:12:31,500
what the mission would look 
like. 

236
00:12:31,700 --> 00:12:34,400
And we started that using the 
orbital data and doing a lot of 

237
00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,300
the planetary geologic, mapping 
to understand what rock units 

238
00:12:38,300 --> 00:12:40,000
were present. 
And even just selecting The 

239
00:12:40,008 --> 00:12:41,400
Landing site. 
Where did we want to go? 

240
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:42,800
What did we know about these 
places? 

241
00:12:42,900 --> 00:12:46,800
Based on our existing data sets.
And so before we landed with 

242
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,100
perseverance, we had already 
sketched out possible Traverse 

243
00:12:50,100 --> 00:12:52,700
options with the Rover. 
That would ensure that we would 

244
00:12:52,700 --> 00:12:55,600
visit all of the exciting 
geological units with high 

245
00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,200
potential for having signs of 
ancient life. 

246
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,600
But then, of course, you get on 
the ground and you have a whole 

247
00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,700
new scale of data to deal with. 
And you can see the surface and 

248
00:13:03,700 --> 00:13:06,600
see the Rocks up close and that 
can change things. 

249
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,800
And so you have to build in some
Discovery and exploration margin

250
00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,600
into your plan and then of 
course we didn't know where we 

251
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:13,400
were going. 
Land. 

252
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,300
And so that's kind of the 
long-term planning. 

253
00:13:15,300 --> 00:13:17,000
And so you're always thinking 
about, okay, well, where do we 

254
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,800
want to get to and what kind of 
diversity, do we need to put 

255
00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,800
into the sample cash? 
And that certainly is, Keeps Us 

256
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,000
motivated to keep moving with 
the mission. 

257
00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,800
But day-to-day, we pull up to a 
new location. 

258
00:13:27,900 --> 00:13:31,600
We survey the Rocks around us, 
depending on what our resource 

259
00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,400
allocation is we think a lot 
about power and time every day 

260
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,600
when we plan for the Rover will 
plan science activities and so, 

261
00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,600
we'll decide which instruments 
do we want to use today in which

262
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,700
rock targets are Ting. 
And in which instrument 

263
00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:47,200
capabilities would answer the 
questions we have about the 

264
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,700
rocks. 
And so, sometimes we're using a 

265
00:13:49,700 --> 00:13:51,400
super cam instrument that we've 
talks about. 

266
00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,100
Sometimes we're using, just the 
cameras sometimes will say, 

267
00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:55,200
well, this is really 
interesting. 

268
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,700
We have to get the arm of the 
Rover out and use some of our up

269
00:13:58,700 --> 00:14:03,100
close Imaging and spectroscopic 
capabilities, its Dynamic 

270
00:14:03,100 --> 00:14:05,900
day-to-day, but you always have 
to have in mind that higher 

271
00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:08,800
level plan, otherwise you can 
really go down the rabbit hole 

272
00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,800
at anyone outcrop and it's this 
balance of day-to-day. 

273
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,100
This is month to month versus 
year to year, and we've got this

274
00:14:16,100 --> 00:14:18,400
follow-on mission to collect the
samples. 

275
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,900
So, we're a little different 
from other missions in that 

276
00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:23,600
respect, where we have a ticking
clock and we have to meet the 

277
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,500
next mission that's coming. 
Can you give me an example of a 

278
00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:31,300
kind of opportunistic. 
Discovery activity that you 

279
00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:33,700
didn't know about an advance, 
but you just had to do. 

280
00:14:34,100 --> 00:14:35,800
Yes. 
Well I can give you an example 

281
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,600
from the Curiosity Rover, this 
was a great example because we 

282
00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,400
landed right on top of it, when 
we arrived in Gale, crater with 

283
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:43,700
the Curiosity. 
Ah, steer over. 

284
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,900
We happen to land on 
conglomerates River deposits. 

285
00:14:47,900 --> 00:14:50,800
And we had no idea they were 
there in advance because they 

286
00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,400
were too small to see and 
resolve in the orbital data. 

287
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,500
And so suddenly we realized that
we had plopped ourselves right 

288
00:14:56,500 --> 00:15:00,100
on top of a major scientific 
discovery which was the first 

289
00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:03,400
confirmed River deposits 
observed by a Rover. 

290
00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:08,200
And so we had to work into our 
plan some additional time spent 

291
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:12,600
studying these outcrops that we 
could do some paleo hydraulic 

292
00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:15,800
Relations to figure out the 
depth of the stream and how fast

293
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,100
it was flowing. 
And what implications that might

294
00:15:18,100 --> 00:15:21,200
have for the climate of Mars. 
At the time, we have another 

295
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,500
great example from curiosity 
where our main focus of that 

296
00:15:24,500 --> 00:15:28,800
mission is, and always has been 
the five kilometer High Mound of

297
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:30,400
sedimentary rock in the center 
of the crater. 

298
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,700
But we realized when we landed 
that, if we went, the opposite 

299
00:15:34,700 --> 00:15:38,300
way away from the mound, we 
might have a chance to see some 

300
00:15:38,300 --> 00:15:40,500
potentially habitable Lake 
deposits. 

301
00:15:40,500 --> 00:15:44,000
So we took a risk and drove in 
the wrong direction. 

302
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,500
First and it paid off, we found 
our habitable environment, we 

303
00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:50,800
found those Lake deposits and 
were able to check off some of 

304
00:15:50,808 --> 00:15:54,200
the major high level objectives 
of the mission by making kind of

305
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,900
a bold decision to go in the 
other direction and we have the 

306
00:15:56,900 --> 00:15:59,400
same thing for perseverance. 
We're currently deciding. 

307
00:15:59,700 --> 00:16:03,000
How do we get to the Delta? 
We have two main routes that are

308
00:16:03,100 --> 00:16:06,100
in play right now and we're 
trying to figure out which way 

309
00:16:06,100 --> 00:16:09,600
we should go balancing 
efficiency with scientific 

310
00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,900
interest. 
Can the Rover negotiate all the 

311
00:16:12,908 --> 00:16:15,100
terrain. 
There was also kind of safety 

312
00:16:15,100 --> 00:16:17,900
considerations about how you get
from A to B. 

313
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,500
Yes, there are certainly safety 
considerations, but we have 

314
00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:26,500
capability on perseverance, that
allows us to navigate terrain, I

315
00:16:26,500 --> 00:16:28,700
think more efficiently than 
previous missions. 

316
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:33,100
The Rover has an updated 
computer processor that allows 

317
00:16:33,100 --> 00:16:37,100
it to do auto navigation, so it 
can image the surface as it's 

318
00:16:37,100 --> 00:16:41,300
driving and basically process 
those images to pick Safe route 

319
00:16:41,300 --> 00:16:44,300
as it's driving along, and 
previous Rovers have had this 

320
00:16:44,300 --> 00:16:48,200
capability to Curiosity, has it?
But with a slower computer, it 

321
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,800
is very time-intensive to do 
this kind of Auto navigation. 

322
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,100
But with perseverance, we can do
that auto navigation, much more 

323
00:16:55,100 --> 00:16:57,200
efficiently. 
So we should be able to drive 

324
00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,400
upwards of 150 meters per day 
on. 

325
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,700
Good terrain, whereas previous 
Rovers have average something 

326
00:17:02,700 --> 00:17:05,000
closer to maybe 30 to 50 meters 
per day. 

327
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,000
What's the long-term 
destination? 

328
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,000
You mentioned checking out the 
Dell take deposits. 

329
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,700
How far away is that and where 
do you expect the Rover to wind 

330
00:17:14,700 --> 00:17:18,700
up, at the end of its Mission? 
We landed about two kilometers 

331
00:17:18,700 --> 00:17:21,800
from the main Delta deposit. 
Although, we have a couple of 

332
00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,700
what we think, are remnants of a
formerly more extensive, Delta 

333
00:17:25,700 --> 00:17:27,800
deposit. 
So we might have the ability to 

334
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,500
preview these Delta deposits 
before we get to the main 

335
00:17:30,500 --> 00:17:33,300
contiguous Delta. 
But of course, the Delta is one 

336
00:17:33,300 --> 00:17:37,000
of our main exploration Targets 
in jezzer, a crater As well as 

337
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,000
some deposits around. 
The inner margin of the crater. 

338
00:17:40,300 --> 00:17:43,100
Essentially at what we think 
might have been the shoreline of

339
00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:45,600
this ancient Lake jezza wrote 
that once existed here. 

340
00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:49,000
And so we're very excited to 
explore those marginal deposits.

341
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,500
What we call them. 
Our goal is to have it 

342
00:17:51,508 --> 00:17:54,500
completed. 
Our exploration of jezza row at 

343
00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:57,400
about the qualified lifetime of 
the Rover, which is about one 

344
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,400
and a half Mars years or about 
three Earth years and to have 

345
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,700
deposited a cache of samples on 
the surface. 

346
00:18:04,100 --> 00:18:07,600
But then after that, if the Over
is healthy and doing well. 

347
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,100
Then we have a decision. 
We can choose to stay in jezza, 

348
00:18:11,100 --> 00:18:12,900
row, and continue. 
Our exploration within the 

349
00:18:12,908 --> 00:18:15,900
crater, but we've also talked 
about venturing outside. 

350
00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:18,000
The crater. 
We often talk here on Earth 

351
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,600
about source to sink since we 
landed in the crater. 

352
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,400
We're probably doing the sink 
first but we might have the 

353
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,800
opportunity to go explore the 
source of these sediments. 

354
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,100
That were brought into the 
crater and that we've explored 

355
00:18:29,100 --> 00:18:31,200
in the Delta. 
And so that's a really exciting 

356
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,500
to have the potential to see 
these rocks in place where they 

357
00:18:34,500 --> 00:18:37,500
were originally deposited. 
Inside the crater also outside 

358
00:18:37,500 --> 00:18:39,300
the crater. 
We have some very ancient 

359
00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:44,300
Martian crust, 3.92 4 billion 
years old and older that period 

360
00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:47,600
of the solar system is a part of
solar system history, not. 

361
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,100
Well preserved in rocks here on 
Earth because of the constant 

362
00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:54,400
recycling, of our own crust. 
I'm curious about that team 

363
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,800
Logistics and how you operate. 
What is your responsibility as 

364
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,100
Deputy project scientist? 
Yes. 

365
00:19:01,100 --> 00:19:04,600
So I have the great honor to be 
part of the Science Leadership 

366
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,400
team lead. 
Being a team of about 450 

367
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,000
scientists from around the world
who participates on the 

368
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,700
perseverance rover mission. 
And there are three of us up in 

369
00:19:12,700 --> 00:19:15,500
the project science box. 
We have our project scientist 

370
00:19:15,500 --> 00:19:17,300
and then two deputies of which I
am one. 

371
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:21,500
And so it's our job to lead the 
science team and to also advise 

372
00:19:21,500 --> 00:19:24,400
and consult with the engineers 
who are operating the Rover, 

373
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,200
oftentimes we are consensus 
Builders and working to get 

374
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,800
those 450. 
People on the same page to 

375
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,700
operate a single robotic, 
Explorer is sometimes no small 

376
00:19:33,700 --> 00:19:37,300
feat. 
What's up typical day? 

377
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,600
Like, for you at the moment? 
And I, you somehow tied to the 

378
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,200
moths diurnal cycle. 
Yes, it's a tradition for Mars 

379
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,500
Rover. 
Missions to be on what we call 

380
00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:49,200
Mars time in the early days of 
the mission. 

381
00:19:49,500 --> 00:19:53,200
The Mars day is about 40 minutes
longer than the earth day. 

382
00:19:53,500 --> 00:19:56,600
And so sometimes that means that
Earth and Mars time are pretty 

383
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,300
well aligned. 
But other times we're completely

384
00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:02,600
out of phase with Mars for the 
first 90 days or. 

385
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,600
So of the mission, we have the 
scientists and engineers Living 

386
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,000
on Mars time. 
I did a modified Mars time 

387
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,100
because I have young kids here 
at home with me and young kids, 

388
00:20:11,100 --> 00:20:12,800
don't respect the Mars time 
schedule. 

389
00:20:13,500 --> 00:20:16,200
So I did my best putting in a 
full day and then staying up 

390
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,800
later to help operate 
perseverance. 

391
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,500
But fortunately, we are getting 
to a period of time where we are

392
00:20:21,500 --> 00:20:23,400
now out of those overnight 
shifts. 

393
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,000
At least for the west coast of 
the US where I am. 

394
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,900
So we are transitioning back to 
Earth time with that. 

395
00:20:29,900 --> 00:20:32,700
Though comes a loss in 
efficiency and how you operate 

396
00:20:32,700 --> 00:20:35,500
the Rover because there are 
times now when We'll be 

397
00:20:35,500 --> 00:20:38,000
sleeping, but the Rover could be
awake doing things and we're 

398
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,800
just not awake to program the 
Rover to do it but of course, it

399
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,300
comes with the advantage of 
giving us all a little bit of a 

400
00:20:43,300 --> 00:20:47,900
break. 
At what point will you have you 

401
00:20:47,900 --> 00:20:53,200
already pulled out your Suite of
astrobiology experiments? 

402
00:20:53,500 --> 00:20:55,700
Yes, we haven't done it yet 
because those instruments are 

403
00:20:55,700 --> 00:20:59,200
still coming online, but we 
anticipate in probably about one

404
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,700
or two months, we'll have the 
full instrument Suite, ready to 

405
00:21:01,700 --> 00:21:03,700
go. 
And we're very excited to pull 

406
00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:06,900
out our astrobiology instruments
for the first time and, and to 

407
00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:11,100
do that, really detailed mapping
of the surface of these rocks, 

408
00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:14,700
to look for these combined 
signals of Elemental. 

409
00:21:14,900 --> 00:21:18,700
Position mineralogy 
morphological texture that we 

410
00:21:18,700 --> 00:21:22,500
can see as well as distribution 
of Organics and by putting all 

411
00:21:22,500 --> 00:21:25,300
of those things together that's 
how we hope to make a case for a

412
00:21:25,308 --> 00:21:28,600
possible biosignature. 
Far and Away. 

413
00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:33,400
The biggest prize of this 
Mission would be to find a bio 

414
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,900
signature on Mars. 
Can you speculate as to what 

415
00:21:37,900 --> 00:21:41,700
combination of discoveries with 
the instruments on perseverance?

416
00:21:42,500 --> 00:21:47,300
If we are so lucky as to find a 
bio signature, is likely to at 

417
00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:49,900
least initially clinched the 
issue? 

418
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,500
Yes, that's a great question. 
And, you know, what would a bio 

419
00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:55,500
signature look like on Mars? 
And what are you looking for and

420
00:21:55,500 --> 00:21:57,300
based on our previous 
exploration? 

421
00:21:57,500 --> 00:22:00,300
With other Rovers and Landers on
Mars and based, on our 

422
00:22:00,300 --> 00:22:03,400
understanding of how Mars has 
evolved over time, we're not 

423
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,600
necessarily expecting to find 
evidence of ancient complex, 

424
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,100
life forms on Mars will joke 
about the proverbial dinosaur 

425
00:22:10,100 --> 00:22:12,300
bone. 
But based on our understanding 

426
00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:15,600
of how Mars evolved our 
expectations are that if there 

427
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,700
was once Life on Mars, it 
probably did not progress past 

428
00:22:18,700 --> 00:22:22,700
the microbial stage. 
And so we're looking for 

429
00:22:22,700 --> 00:22:26,000
evidence in the rocks of past 
microbial Life on Mars and we 

430
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,000
have some great analogs for that
here in the early Earth Rock 

431
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,500
record. 
One thing that we point to often

432
00:22:31,500 --> 00:22:34,000
is if texture called 
stromatolites and those are 

433
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,900
fossilized microbial mats and 
they form. 

434
00:22:36,900 --> 00:22:40,900
When growing Matt interact with 
the sediment and are competing 

435
00:22:40,900 --> 00:22:44,400
with sediment to reach the light
and get to the water here on 

436
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:45,400
Earth, we see in the Rock 
record. 

437
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,000
They form all kinds of 
interesting, morphologies and 

438
00:22:48,100 --> 00:22:51,700
conical shapes and Mound shapes.
They're the kind of feature that

439
00:22:51,700 --> 00:22:53,900
when you find them in the field,
you look at them and think, 

440
00:22:53,900 --> 00:22:56,800
well, that's odd doesn't seem 
like physics. 

441
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,100
We're just naturally. 
Really form these weird shapes. 

442
00:22:59,300 --> 00:23:02,300
But again on Mars, we have to 
have a really high bar for what 

443
00:23:02,300 --> 00:23:06,700
could be formed biologically or 
abiotic Lee and work is shown 

444
00:23:06,700 --> 00:23:10,800
here that you can even get 
stromatolite like shapes without

445
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,100
having life presents. 
That's always a tricky thing. 

446
00:23:13,300 --> 00:23:14,800
But that's exactly what we're 
looking for. 

447
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,400
We're looking for these 
interesting Textures in the rock

448
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,200
that make us pause and scratch 
our heads and think, well, you 

449
00:23:20,208 --> 00:23:23,700
know, how would you have formed 
this without life without 

450
00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:27,300
microbial metabolism, and then 
combining those textures? 

451
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,100
Hours with the geochemical and 
mineralogical side. 

452
00:23:30,300 --> 00:23:33,300
Knowing that when life is 
present and preserved in rocks, 

453
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,600
you'll often see evidence of 
that microbial metabolism. 

454
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,100
You'll see the elements and the 
minerals that life likes to use 

455
00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:43,900
and preserve concentrated in 
ways that would be unexpected, 

456
00:23:43,900 --> 00:23:46,500
if life wasn't present and good 
examples of that are 

457
00:23:46,500 --> 00:23:50,100
concentrations of silica find 
silica laminae or iron 

458
00:23:50,100 --> 00:23:53,800
concentrations are certain 
minerals that life might be 

459
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,500
taking advantage of and then of 
course we have the Sherlock in I

460
00:23:57,508 --> 00:24:01,500
meant that can detect and map 
the distribution of Organics and

461
00:24:01,500 --> 00:24:04,100
so we'd be looking for 
concentrations of organic 

462
00:24:04,100 --> 00:24:06,200
molecules perhaps in these 
laminae. 

463
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,600
Suggesting that it's not just a 
random distribution of organic 

464
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,100
molecules that may be raining 
down onto the surface of Mars. 

465
00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:17,300
But we're seeing concentrations 
of Organics suggested of perhaps

466
00:24:17,300 --> 00:24:20,700
past microbial life or microbial
mats even growing there. 

467
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:26,700
So off to a potential bio 
signature, what would you regard

468
00:24:26,700 --> 00:24:30,900
as the most significant finding 
that the Rover might be able to 

469
00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:34,100
make where it is? 
Now, one of the things is to 

470
00:24:34,100 --> 00:24:38,500
learn more about this ancient 
Lake that we find ourselves in 

471
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,600
understanding the evolution of 
that system and interaction of 

472
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,300
the rivers coming into jezzer, 
crater in the history of water 

473
00:24:46,300 --> 00:24:49,500
in this crater and how that 
system evolved in its 

474
00:24:49,500 --> 00:24:52,800
habitability, its composition 
How long it was there? 

475
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,400
I think we can make progress on 
that and learning more about 

476
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,800
this Delta and using it as a 
representative of other ancient 

477
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,500
Crater Lakes that we know are 
present on the surface of Mars. 

478
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,000
One of the exciting things about
j0 Crater compared to other 

479
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,000
places on Mars is the presence 
of carbonates carbonate, 

480
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,900
minerals that we've seen from 
orbit. 

481
00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:14,500
There's been a long-standing 
question about the evolution of 

482
00:25:14,500 --> 00:25:17,400
the atmosphere of Mars. 
We think that Mars once had a 

483
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,100
thicker atmosphere in the 
atmosphere today on Mars is 

484
00:25:20,100 --> 00:25:22,400
mostly CO2. 
But then there's been this 

485
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,200
question of well, if Mars had a 
thicker atmosphere, where did 

486
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:30,600
all that CO2 go and what idea is
that it could have been taken up

487
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,800
into carbonate minerals but 
carbonates are relatively rare 

488
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,800
on the surface of Mars. 
And so just zero is one of those

489
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,600
places that we have confirmed 
carbonate deposits. 

490
00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:43,200
And so I think by studying those
deposits in jezzer, oh, we have 

491
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,800
an opportunity to make some 
great progress in understanding 

492
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,600
the evolution of the atmosphere 
and surface environments on 

493
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,800
Mars. 
If you could design your ideal 

494
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:56,700
Rover for the next Martian, 
exploration Mission, what would 

495
00:25:56,700 --> 00:25:59,800
it look like? 
And where would you send it? 

496
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,400
Oh, this is great question. 
It's kind of like picking your 

497
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,900
favorite child or something like
that because there are so many 

498
00:26:06,900 --> 00:26:10,000
great places on Mars to explore 
one thing that I think would be.

499
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,000
So valuable for a Mars rover, 
mission is to have absolute age 

500
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,000
dating capabilities with the 
Rover. 

501
00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:18,500
I mean, that's one of the things
that we are most looking forward

502
00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:19,600
to with Mars sample. 
Return. 

503
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,700
And because while we have 
constructed a relative geologic 

504
00:26:22,700 --> 00:26:26,100
history for Mars, we're missing 
the absolute time scale. 

505
00:26:26,100 --> 00:26:29,600
And we have to rely on the 
geologic relationships of, we 

506
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,000
think we see this unit on top of
that one, but we don't know how 

507
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,400
old they are. 
And so being able to put 

508
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,600
absolute age dates on the rocks 
that we explore in statue on the

509
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,400
surface of Mars, I think would 
be a great Advance. 

510
00:26:41,500 --> 00:26:43,500
Then I think the question would 
be, where would I send it? 

511
00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:46,500
I tend to, like, the sedimentary
rocks on Mars. 

512
00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:49,500
That's what I study and what I'm
most interested in one of the 

513
00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:51,700
places Cases that I'm very 
intrigued about is Valles 

514
00:26:51,700 --> 00:26:54,100
marineris, which is this big 
canyon system. 

515
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:55,800
What's really neat about Valles 
marineris? 

516
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,700
Is that you have been one place 
this combination of major 

517
00:26:59,700 --> 00:27:04,200
tectonic structural events 
occurring on Mars coupled with 

518
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,000
sedimentary processes. 
We have deposits within Valles 

519
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,400
marineris that we think are 
probably sedimentary. 

520
00:27:09,700 --> 00:27:13,400
We have sub lacustrine fans and 
we also think there is evidence 

521
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,700
for volcanic deposits there and 
so you have in this canyon 

522
00:27:17,700 --> 00:27:20,600
system kind of like studies of 
Grand Canyon here. 

523
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,600
And in the western us, the 
chance to see a fast record of 

524
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,200
geologic history in one place. 
But while also, studying the 

525
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,500
Confluence of structural 
tectonic sedimentary and 

526
00:27:31,500 --> 00:27:34,400
Volcanic, and maybe even impact 
processes on the surface of 

527
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,500
Mars. 
So I'm very intrigued by Valles 

528
00:27:36,500 --> 00:27:38,800
marineris. 
We've never sent robotic 

529
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,700
Explorer to Valles marineris, so
I might choose that place. 

530
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,000
Katie stock, thank you very 
much. 

531
00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:46,500
All right. 
Well, thank you so much for 

532
00:27:46,500 --> 00:27:50,900
having me for more about 
geology, b, as well as pictures 

533
00:27:50,900 --> 00:27:54,700
and illustrations. 
That support this podcast, you 

534
00:27:54,700 --> 00:27:57,300
can go to geology B.com