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This is geology B with all of us
trampled. 

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The rocky planets of the solar 
system have only three moons 

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among them our own moon and the 
too much smaller moons of Mars, 

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Phobos and Deimos. 
There have been no successful 

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missions to either of the 
Martian moons but now the 

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Japanese space agency is leading
a mission to Phobos to land and 

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collect material from its 
surface and return it to Earth. 

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but why Phobos, and what might 
we learn from such a mission 

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Tomo Tsui is a professor in the 
department of solar system, 

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scientists at The Institute of 
Space and natural nautical 

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science of the Japan Aerospace, 
Exploration Agency. 

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He is leading the science team 
for the 2024 mission to Phobos. 

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Tomo Suey. 
Welcome to geology B. 

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Thank you very much Oliver. 
I'm very, very delighted to be 

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here. 
Japan has successfully mounted 

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to sample. 
Return missions to asteroids. 

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Why was Phobos chosen as the 
next Target for a sample return 

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Mission, scientific reasons, and
also the programmatic regions 

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for scientific reasons. 
We going Outdoors of the solar 

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system, the we chose the to ask.
It's real go and eat Okawa, 

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which is the mirror Earth, 
asteroid, which is all which 

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close to the Earth's orbit, but 
we are going further into outer 

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space and for boss is margin 
satellites. 

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So we go beyond the Earth's 
orbit and we have more primitive

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primordial information that we 
can get from the outer solar 

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system materials and also the 
programmatic reasons we have 

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tried to a Leverage Each then 
experience of the asteroid 

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sample return, mission to the 
Future missions. 

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We chose the forest because the 
forest is the saturated model, 

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which means that we need to get 
the spacecraft into the mass 

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gravity field, which is a new 
challenge for us. 

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And also the SK from the gravity
to coming back to the Earth, we 

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are going to use this kind of 
technique for a future Mars 

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mission. 
So MMX, much amused sample. 

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Return mission is a very 
scientific point of view. 

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It to the more primitive 
formation about the solar 

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system. 
But on the other hand, this is 

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also a Gateway for us to go to 
motion missions. 

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I can see that the reasons for 
going there, make a great deal 

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of sense, but when you get to 
Mars, you still have the choice 

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of the two moons Phobos and 
Deimos. 

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Why did you pick Phobos? 
We had a huge debate about that 

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two reasons. 
One, is that at this moment? 

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Hence we could see a surface 
heterogeneity, I mean, the 

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bloody of materials, on the 
surface of Phobos, whereas they 

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are Deimos is pretty much a 
homogeneous, geologist likes a 

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diversity, scientists like the 
diversity. 

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The other reason is that for us 
has our orbit around East side 

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of the diamonds. 
So it focuses the closer to Mars

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and recent numerical. 
Simulation suggests that the 

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Martian ejector what I mean? 
Ejected from the Martian surface

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coming to the focus orbit and 
then some of them could exist in

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the regolith of for bus Which is
the unconsolidated layer of 

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loose dust and rocks on the 
surface. 

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So when you get the sample of 
the regulus of forwards back to 

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the Earth that materials may 
include not only the focused 

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materials but also the motion 
particles that is so exciting. 

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So that's why we chose Focus as 
Anna Target. 

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Landing before we talk about the
science aspects. 

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I want to ask you about the 
mission itself. 

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First, how was the launch date 
of late 2024 or early 2025 

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chosen? 
We haven't have any successful 

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mushroom Mission. 
So Japan needed Martian mission 

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in 2020s. 
This is request from our science

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Community. 
Why 2024? 

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So we have a large window to go 
to mass every two years. 

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Which means, 2020 2022. 2024, 
2026, and MMX, Masha. 

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Moon mission is the five years 
Mission. 

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So if we going to launch the 
spacecraft in 2024, we can come 

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back to the Earth with a thumb. 
Pull in 2029, 2029 is a 

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programmatically, very very 
important. 

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Because NASA, Isa plants the 
Martian sample, return Mission 

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and the sample plans to come 
back to the Earth in 2031, so 

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the jaxa and our community. 
Our words, the sample back to 

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the years before that, as you 
mentioned Japan, has already 

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mounted to successful sample, 
return missions, so far, 

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Hayabusa one and Hayabusa 2. 
What has the Japanese Space 

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Program learned from those? 
And how will this one be 

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different? 
What's new about this one? 

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From the mission point of view, 
We have a lot from there are 

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however certain and helps a do 
missions. 

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For example, the sampling 
devices and also the supper cops

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are returning Logistics like 
last month. 

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We successfully landed the 
capsule on to the Australian 

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desert. 
Also we have to have 

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collaboration with the 
Australian a space agencies and 

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also the Australian 
government's, we need a help and

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also in you keep close 
cooperation for the future 

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missions. 
So we have a lot of love from 

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not only the Generating 
scientific but also the 

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logistics, including the 
international Partners. 

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What is the difference between 
the Hayabusa and aptitude and 

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the MMX Mission. 
So, Hayabusa and a half, statue 

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our sample, reach our mission, 
but it's not loving on the 

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surface of an asteroid, we 
called it touch and go and grab 

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the sample during the 
attachment. 

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Go staff. 
This is not the physical 

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steady-state Landing. 
We can. 

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Make it as long as the small 
very, very small body, like, you

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gu or like itokawa, but we need 
to learn it on the say, free 

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with a full legs, onto the 
larger, bodied relatively large 

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body, like forced 20, km 
diameter Landing is so 

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challenging, at least for us. 
This is the totally different. 

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Touch-and-go stuff is challenge,
but it's a relatively easier 

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than the physical planning. 
That's why this is the Different

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obviously, one of the challenges
of Landing is that you don't 

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really know what the surface is 
going to be like as it's never 

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been a landing on Phobos. 
So what can you do before you 

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land to try and manage the risk 
of the landing? 

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First of all we still compiling 
the existing data, from the 

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previous missions, Isa NASA has 
an Orbiter for the Martian 

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exploration but also the DC. 
Missions. 

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Also looking at the Phobos 
sometimes and then the get a 

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data, but it's not good enough 
for us. 

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Previous existing data more like
refractive, Spectra, or very 

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rough topography information. 
So before logic, we're going to 

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orbit around the Phobos, several
months to get detailed 

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topography and geological 
mapping, but it is still do not 

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have physical property 
information at this moment. 

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Which is like how fluffy it is, 
or how sticky it is of the 

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surface. 
So we deploy a small roll over 

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onto their focus surface before 
their mother ship Landing. 

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So the deploy the small Rover 
which is provided by France and 

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Germany collaborations this is 
so awesome. 

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We're going to see how the robe 
of we works or how the Rover 

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landed or thinking it to see the
physical properties. 

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How can you deploy a Rover? 
Whoa, without Landing, we gonna 

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just throw it away. 
The gravity is so small like 

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point-two percentage of the 
Earth's gravity so we can throw 

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it away free for Randy about 
that tens of meters away from 

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the surface and then we're going
to safely land it on purpose the

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surface, okay? 
So will this Landing procedure 

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of the mothership be carried out
just in a single location on for

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bus. 
We plan To have at least one but

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we have an ability to learn 
twice and more than twice as 

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better. 
Because as I said, that purposes

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surface is so heterogeneous, 
what is the limiting factor than

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on the number of Landings? 
You could do? 

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I mean, why not, three, or four 
or 500 feel? 

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Well, and also some bring 
containers. 

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We do not have enough tens of 
the sample canister because the 

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spacecraft is so small, so, So 
numbers of the sample, 

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canisters, which is proud to be 
three or four ish is also the 

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limitations. 
But as also that few will, if 

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you will, is always the 
limitations. 

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Because we need a few actual 
coming back and forth. 

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So what instruments will the 
spacecraft carry? 

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We have many instruments 798, we
have two cameras, the visible 

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cameras in one is a telescopic. 
The other is kind of a wide 

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angle camera has two cameras. 
And also the we have infrared 

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spectrometer which is provided 
by drowns gamma ray and neutron 

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spectrometer that would give us 
an elemental informations that 

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is provided by the US. 
And also that we have dust 

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monitor, we have mass 
spectrometers and we have a 

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lighter, which is the ranging 
system. 

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Also, we have Rover, as I said, 
a Rover is very, very unique 

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instruments provided by the 
corporation. 

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Of knesset, France and also DRL 
in Germany here on Earth, Mass 

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spectrometer is a huge room size
machine with vacuum Chambers and

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big magnets. 
And how could you get to 

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spectrometers onto a small 
spacecraft? 

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That's Mass spectrometer is just
a very small because that 

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spectrometer get there already, 
ironized materials. 

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So the huge mass spec as you 
mention is needed equipped with 

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the He's Asian package that you 
need a lockout lasers. 

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You need the drilling system, 
you need the plasma staff, but 

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for us, at least, we're going to
measure the already out of diced

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pieces, element. 
So we need just very small Mass 

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detected counters. 
You said that the spacecraft 

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will spend three hours out of 
the five year mission in orbit 

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around Mars around for bus, will
it be surveying the surface? 

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To identify the possible Landing
site. 

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And what kind of criteria will 
you be using to pick the landing

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site? 
The most important criteria for 

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us, is to pick the landing site 
is safety safely, landing and 

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also the coming back to the 
Earth. 

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So we still do not know surface 
roughness, we have landing gear,

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but the height is like are less 
than a 1 M from the bottom to 

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the deck of the spacecraft. 
So we should Abide a big 

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boulders and Also, the we should
avoid the fluffy fluffy 

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materials, smooth, and a rigid 
surface is very important. 

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Although we need scientific 
point of view, we are going to 

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pick the landing sites to 
maximize the surface 

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heterogeneity or of a variety of
the material that we can get. 

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So the safety first but it is 
scientific. 

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Reasons is also important when 
you say heterogeneity of the 

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surface is it in Albedo? 
What makes it heterogeneous? 

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At this moment on video of the 
infrared is the only the 

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information we have we call the 
reddish or bluish which means 

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that is a refractive features. 
Okay, let's talk about the 

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scientific aspects. 
Now what are the main scientific

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questions that we hope to shed 
light on the major goal of MX. 

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Mission is to determine origin 
of Phobos and Deimos. 

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We still do not know how oh, 
these moons formed. 

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We have at least two competing 
hypotheses one, is that the 

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capture of the asteroid. 
The other is the in situ 

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formation by a giant impact. 
So the capture of asteroid 

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scenario is that Phobos and 
Deimos. 

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Originally asteroid they were 
from the main belt asteroid or 

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the farther than that come to 
the Mars gravity field and and 

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capture that by Mars. 
And then goes to become an eSATA

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rights of Mars. 
On the other hand, the giant 

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impact scenario is something 
like formation scenario for our 

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assessment as well. 
So impact a large body don't do 

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more than and Prost of the 
ejector get together to the one 

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or two locations to get to the 
satellites. 

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So two competing hypotheses but 
it is still these hypotheses 

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have positive and a negative 
evidence to support that. 

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So it's so confusing right now. 
So there MX Mission will 

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definitely, give fingerprints to
test that hypothesis. 

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Tell me about this fingerprint. 
Let's say we're in 2029 and you 

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have your sample back from 
Phobos. 

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What analysis will you perform? 
That will help you distinguish 

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between these two different 
theories of the origin. 

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Fingerprints are the Isotopes, 
isotopes of the constituent 

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elements of the building blocks 
Like Oxygen and also titanium 

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chromium. 
And also they're more even than 

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mm, maybe. 
But the chromium, titanium and 

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oxygen Isotopes. 
Are the good indicator to show 

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the origin of the planetary 
solar system materials. 

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So we have a lot of information,
the based on the upper row 

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samples and Mitchell lights to 
have kind of a classification 

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diagram using the oxygen, and 
also the Italian and chromium, I

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step. 
So we're going to use them to 

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identify the origins where the 
It is like asteroid or comet 

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impact scenario, which could be 
a mixture of the mushroom 

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material, plus the impactor. 
But for me, I'm very, very 

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interested in the Martian. 
Ejector eject, the sample coming

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from the surface of Mars because
we still have very limited 

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number of the motion material, 
which is called The Martian 

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meteorites, but the multimedia 
light is so limited in terms of 

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the age, in terms of the 
geological, Challenge. 

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But for materials, in the 
regulus of almost could have 

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lots of materials coming from 
the parade of the Tulane, so 

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that would give us a continuous 
history of the evolution of the 

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Martian surface. 
So that is so unique. 

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Presumably the Martian 
meteorites, we can collect on 

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Earth were delivered relatively 
recently. 

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And I expect Phobos on the other
hand has been collecting 

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material from ours. 
For many millions of years 

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meteorite, that we have is 
landed on the earth. 

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Let's say 10 kill youse. 
All media light came to the 

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Earth. 
Very our era is gone Escape. 

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We didn't have any chance to get
such Armature lights, their 

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food, learned it on the earth 
varies. 

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But whereas the foremost capture
the ancient stuff. 

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So for the Martian meteorites, 
we have about 50 meters wide so 

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far. 
But it's the 150 MHz lights 

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coming from just about 10 
geological locations, not the 

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150 locations, and the tens of 
them or 20 of them coming from 

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the one place. 
And also Martian, meteorites are

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all the igneous rocks, like 
crystallize from my magma which 

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means that Martian meteorites 
experience very high temperature

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magmatic processes. 
But we do not have Any 

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sedimentary, rocks? 
Sedimentary Martian, meteorites.

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Igneous rocks is also very 
important, but it does sediment 

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like leg, bit sediments or sea, 
ocean, sediments are pretty much

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important for us to give us 
information about the perio 

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climate and also the 
environmental. 

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And also, the hopefully 
habitable conditions. 

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Whereas the igneous, one give us
an information level of deep 

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interior, so we'd like the 
information about the social 

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condition. 
The most like empowerment 

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habitability climate weathers 
for margin particles in the 

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regular service hopefully mixed 
of everything because the 

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ejector from Mars is coming out 
of from all over the entire 

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Martian surface and ejecting 
velocity is much much lower than

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the Martian meteorite because 
these ejector should not have an

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experience to escape the Mars 
gravity just pumping out 

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catching up Focus for my last 
question. 

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I want to ask you if you could 
choose the destination for the 

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next sample return mission. 
After Phobos, where would you 

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go? 
Oh, 2 ways 1. 

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It goes to the outer solar 
system like Jovian asteroid, 

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also saturnian Moon, the other 
is landing Mission running to 

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Mars MMX, is the kind of a 
Gateway for a Mars, gravity 

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field, the Mars exploration. 
So we're going to use the mmm. 

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X as in a stepping stone to more
comprehensive Moss Landing 

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Mission tomorrow. 
So we thank you very much. 

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Thank you for more about geology
b as well as pictures and 

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diagrams that illustrate. 
This podcast. 

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You can go to Java g b.com