This is geology B with all of us trampled.
The rocky planets of the solar system have only three moons
among them our own moon and the too much smaller moons of Mars,
Phobos and Deimos. There have been no successful
missions to either of the Martian moons but now the
Japanese space agency is leading a mission to Phobos to land and
collect material from its surface and return it to Earth.
but why Phobos, and what might we learn from such a mission
Tomo Tsui is a professor in the department of solar system,
scientists at The Institute of Space and natural nautical
science of the Japan Aerospace, Exploration Agency.
He is leading the science team for the 2024 mission to Phobos.
Tomo Suey. Welcome to geology B.
Thank you very much Oliver. I'm very, very delighted to be
here. Japan has successfully mounted
to sample. Return missions to asteroids.
Why was Phobos chosen as the next Target for a sample return
Mission, scientific reasons, and also the programmatic regions
for scientific reasons. We going Outdoors of the solar
system, the we chose the to ask. It's real go and eat Okawa,
which is the mirror Earth, asteroid, which is all which
close to the Earth's orbit, but we are going further into outer
space and for boss is margin satellites.
So we go beyond the Earth's orbit and we have more primitive
primordial information that we can get from the outer solar
system materials and also the programmatic reasons we have
tried to a Leverage Each then experience of the asteroid
sample return, mission to the Future missions.
We chose the forest because the forest is the saturated model,
which means that we need to get the spacecraft into the mass
gravity field, which is a new challenge for us.
And also the SK from the gravity to coming back to the Earth, we
are going to use this kind of technique for a future Mars
mission. So MMX, much amused sample.
Return mission is a very scientific point of view.
It to the more primitive formation about the solar
system. But on the other hand, this is
also a Gateway for us to go to motion missions.
I can see that the reasons for going there, make a great deal
of sense, but when you get to Mars, you still have the choice
of the two moons Phobos and Deimos.
Why did you pick Phobos? We had a huge debate about that
two reasons. One, is that at this moment?
Hence we could see a surface heterogeneity, I mean, the
bloody of materials, on the surface of Phobos, whereas they
are Deimos is pretty much a homogeneous, geologist likes a
diversity, scientists like the diversity.
The other reason is that for us has our orbit around East side
of the diamonds. So it focuses the closer to Mars
and recent numerical. Simulation suggests that the
Martian ejector what I mean? Ejected from the Martian surface
coming to the focus orbit and then some of them could exist in
the regolith of for bus Which is the unconsolidated layer of
loose dust and rocks on the surface.
So when you get the sample of the regulus of forwards back to
the Earth that materials may include not only the focused
materials but also the motion particles that is so exciting.
So that's why we chose Focus as Anna Target.
Landing before we talk about the science aspects.
I want to ask you about the mission itself.
First, how was the launch date of late 2024 or early 2025
chosen? We haven't have any successful
mushroom Mission. So Japan needed Martian mission
in 2020s. This is request from our science
Community. Why 2024?
So we have a large window to go to mass every two years.
Which means, 2020 2022. 2024, 2026, and MMX, Masha.
Moon mission is the five years Mission.
So if we going to launch the spacecraft in 2024, we can come
back to the Earth with a thumb. Pull in 2029, 2029 is a
programmatically, very very important.
Because NASA, Isa plants the Martian sample, return Mission
and the sample plans to come back to the Earth in 2031, so
the jaxa and our community. Our words, the sample back to
the years before that, as you mentioned Japan, has already
mounted to successful sample, return missions, so far,
Hayabusa one and Hayabusa 2. What has the Japanese Space
Program learned from those? And how will this one be
different? What's new about this one?
From the mission point of view, We have a lot from there are
however certain and helps a do missions.
For example, the sampling devices and also the supper cops
are returning Logistics like last month.
We successfully landed the capsule on to the Australian
desert. Also we have to have
collaboration with the Australian a space agencies and
also the Australian government's, we need a help and
also in you keep close cooperation for the future
missions. So we have a lot of love from
not only the Generating scientific but also the
logistics, including the international Partners.
What is the difference between the Hayabusa and aptitude and
the MMX Mission. So, Hayabusa and a half, statue
our sample, reach our mission, but it's not loving on the
surface of an asteroid, we called it touch and go and grab
the sample during the attachment.
Go staff. This is not the physical
steady-state Landing. We can.
Make it as long as the small very, very small body, like, you
gu or like itokawa, but we need to learn it on the say, free
with a full legs, onto the larger, bodied relatively large
body, like forced 20, km diameter Landing is so
challenging, at least for us. This is the totally different.
Touch-and-go stuff is challenge, but it's a relatively easier
than the physical planning. That's why this is the Different
obviously, one of the challenges of Landing is that you don't
really know what the surface is going to be like as it's never
been a landing on Phobos. So what can you do before you
land to try and manage the risk of the landing?
First of all we still compiling the existing data, from the
previous missions, Isa NASA has an Orbiter for the Martian
exploration but also the DC. Missions.
Also looking at the Phobos sometimes and then the get a
data, but it's not good enough for us.
Previous existing data more like refractive, Spectra, or very
rough topography information. So before logic, we're going to
orbit around the Phobos, several months to get detailed
topography and geological mapping, but it is still do not
have physical property information at this moment.
Which is like how fluffy it is, or how sticky it is of the
surface. So we deploy a small roll over
onto their focus surface before their mother ship Landing.
So the deploy the small Rover which is provided by France and
Germany collaborations this is so awesome.
We're going to see how the robe of we works or how the Rover
landed or thinking it to see the physical properties.
How can you deploy a Rover? Whoa, without Landing, we gonna
just throw it away. The gravity is so small like
point-two percentage of the Earth's gravity so we can throw
it away free for Randy about that tens of meters away from
the surface and then we're going to safely land it on purpose the
surface, okay? So will this Landing procedure
of the mothership be carried out just in a single location on for
bus. We plan To have at least one but
we have an ability to learn twice and more than twice as
better. Because as I said, that purposes
surface is so heterogeneous, what is the limiting factor than
on the number of Landings? You could do?
I mean, why not, three, or four or 500 feel?
Well, and also some bring containers.
We do not have enough tens of the sample canister because the
spacecraft is so small, so, So numbers of the sample,
canisters, which is proud to be three or four ish is also the
limitations. But as also that few will, if
you will, is always the limitations.
Because we need a few actual coming back and forth.
So what instruments will the spacecraft carry?
We have many instruments 798, we have two cameras, the visible
cameras in one is a telescopic. The other is kind of a wide
angle camera has two cameras. And also the we have infrared
spectrometer which is provided by drowns gamma ray and neutron
spectrometer that would give us an elemental informations that
is provided by the US. And also that we have dust
monitor, we have mass spectrometers and we have a
lighter, which is the ranging system.
Also, we have Rover, as I said, a Rover is very, very unique
instruments provided by the corporation.
Of knesset, France and also DRL in Germany here on Earth, Mass
spectrometer is a huge room size machine with vacuum Chambers and
big magnets. And how could you get to
spectrometers onto a small spacecraft?
That's Mass spectrometer is just a very small because that
spectrometer get there already, ironized materials.
So the huge mass spec as you mention is needed equipped with
the He's Asian package that you need a lockout lasers.
You need the drilling system, you need the plasma staff, but
for us, at least, we're going to measure the already out of diced
pieces, element. So we need just very small Mass
detected counters. You said that the spacecraft
will spend three hours out of the five year mission in orbit
around Mars around for bus, will it be surveying the surface?
To identify the possible Landing site.
And what kind of criteria will you be using to pick the landing
site? The most important criteria for
us, is to pick the landing site is safety safely, landing and
also the coming back to the Earth.
So we still do not know surface roughness, we have landing gear,
but the height is like are less than a 1 M from the bottom to
the deck of the spacecraft. So we should Abide a big
boulders and Also, the we should avoid the fluffy fluffy
materials, smooth, and a rigid surface is very important.
Although we need scientific point of view, we are going to
pick the landing sites to maximize the surface
heterogeneity or of a variety of the material that we can get.
So the safety first but it is scientific.
Reasons is also important when you say heterogeneity of the
surface is it in Albedo? What makes it heterogeneous?
At this moment on video of the infrared is the only the
information we have we call the reddish or bluish which means
that is a refractive features. Okay, let's talk about the
scientific aspects. Now what are the main scientific
questions that we hope to shed light on the major goal of MX.
Mission is to determine origin of Phobos and Deimos.
We still do not know how oh, these moons formed.
We have at least two competing hypotheses one, is that the
capture of the asteroid. The other is the in situ
formation by a giant impact. So the capture of asteroid
scenario is that Phobos and Deimos.
Originally asteroid they were from the main belt asteroid or
the farther than that come to the Mars gravity field and and
capture that by Mars. And then goes to become an eSATA
rights of Mars. On the other hand, the giant
impact scenario is something like formation scenario for our
assessment as well. So impact a large body don't do
more than and Prost of the ejector get together to the one
or two locations to get to the satellites.
So two competing hypotheses but it is still these hypotheses
have positive and a negative evidence to support that.
So it's so confusing right now. So there MX Mission will
definitely, give fingerprints to test that hypothesis.
Tell me about this fingerprint. Let's say we're in 2029 and you
have your sample back from Phobos.
What analysis will you perform? That will help you distinguish
between these two different theories of the origin.
Fingerprints are the Isotopes, isotopes of the constituent
elements of the building blocks Like Oxygen and also titanium
chromium. And also they're more even than
mm, maybe. But the chromium, titanium and
oxygen Isotopes. Are the good indicator to show
the origin of the planetary solar system materials.
So we have a lot of information, the based on the upper row
samples and Mitchell lights to have kind of a classification
diagram using the oxygen, and also the Italian and chromium, I
step. So we're going to use them to
identify the origins where the It is like asteroid or comet
impact scenario, which could be a mixture of the mushroom
material, plus the impactor. But for me, I'm very, very
interested in the Martian. Ejector eject, the sample coming
from the surface of Mars because we still have very limited
number of the motion material, which is called The Martian
meteorites, but the multimedia light is so limited in terms of
the age, in terms of the geological, Challenge.
But for materials, in the regulus of almost could have
lots of materials coming from the parade of the Tulane, so
that would give us a continuous history of the evolution of the
Martian surface. So that is so unique.
Presumably the Martian meteorites, we can collect on
Earth were delivered relatively recently.
And I expect Phobos on the other hand has been collecting
material from ours. For many millions of years
meteorite, that we have is landed on the earth.
Let's say 10 kill youse. All media light came to the
Earth. Very our era is gone Escape.
We didn't have any chance to get such Armature lights, their
food, learned it on the earth varies.
But whereas the foremost capture the ancient stuff.
So for the Martian meteorites, we have about 50 meters wide so
far. But it's the 150 MHz lights
coming from just about 10 geological locations, not the
150 locations, and the tens of them or 20 of them coming from
the one place. And also Martian, meteorites are
all the igneous rocks, like crystallize from my magma which
means that Martian meteorites experience very high temperature
magmatic processes. But we do not have Any
sedimentary, rocks? Sedimentary Martian, meteorites.
Igneous rocks is also very important, but it does sediment
like leg, bit sediments or sea, ocean, sediments are pretty much
important for us to give us information about the perio
climate and also the environmental.
And also, the hopefully habitable conditions.
Whereas the igneous, one give us an information level of deep
interior, so we'd like the information about the social
condition. The most like empowerment
habitability climate weathers for margin particles in the
regular service hopefully mixed of everything because the
ejector from Mars is coming out of from all over the entire
Martian surface and ejecting velocity is much much lower than
the Martian meteorite because these ejector should not have an
experience to escape the Mars gravity just pumping out
catching up Focus for my last question.
I want to ask you if you could choose the destination for the
next sample return mission. After Phobos, where would you
go? Oh, 2 ways 1.
It goes to the outer solar system like Jovian asteroid,
also saturnian Moon, the other is landing Mission running to
Mars MMX, is the kind of a Gateway for a Mars, gravity
field, the Mars exploration. So we're going to use the mmm.
X as in a stepping stone to more comprehensive Moss Landing
Mission tomorrow. So we thank you very much.
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