1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,960 Hiker Eric Hanson set off on a beautiful sunny day for what was 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,160 meant to be an ordinary canyoneering troupe with his 3 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,200 brother and a few friends. But then, out of nowhere, a 4 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,080 freak storm unleashed a massive flash flood. 5 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,240 It's hands down, at the scariest moment of my life, I was. 6 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:15,400 Terrified for you? I thought you were going to get 7 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:17,160 washed. Off Zion National Park in the 8 00:00:17,240 --> 00:00:20,880 prime of monsoon season and it just starts to dump on us. 9 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:22,960 In an instant. Everything changed. 10 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,520 Wall of water comes down on us. Get up the folder. 11 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,560 We are totally pinned, completely stuck. 12 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,560 Were you like in a spot where if you moved, you're going to fall? 13 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,720 Getting swept down Canyon, you would have gone off of another 14 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:38,240 100 foot Cliff and that would be the end. 15 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:40,920 The thought that went through my head was this GoPro that I'm 16 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:42,400 holding on that I'm filming stuff with. 17 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:44,840 Somebody's going to find this GoPro and my parents are going 18 00:00:44,840 --> 00:01:08,200 to watch how their to sunset. Eric, thank you so much for 19 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,960 being here, man, It's been a it's been a minute. 20 00:01:10,960 --> 00:01:15,120 So Eric is a old friend of mine, hung out many many times. 21 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,680 We, it's, it's funny that, that we're going to be talking about 22 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:24,480 a, a survival situation where it wasn't your survival, it was my 23 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:26,600 survival. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 24 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,920 If you didn't know, we were in a situation where I had to get 25 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,640 rescued. But Eric, your situation is 26 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,600 pretty, pretty next level. It, it honestly was, it was it's 27 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,520 hands down at the scariest moment of my life. 28 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,720 Like I, I think it was the, the single moment where I fell 29 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,080 closest to death and where they're kind of quintessential, 30 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,880 like all the things are flashing before your eyes and thinking of 31 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,840 like family and parents and loved ones and all those things. 32 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,000 So it was it was full on. Where were you? 33 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,720 So this was in Zion National Park. 34 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,000 I at the time I had been living in St. 35 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,520 George, UT, which is right outside of Zion National Park, 36 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,759 working for a wilderness therapy company and had a ton of 37 00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:12,680 experience going into Zion. And at the time I was guiding 38 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:17,000 separately and then going in on my free days and free weeks off 39 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:19,600 in Design National Park. And it was getting really into 40 00:02:19,920 --> 00:02:23,160 canyoneering at the time. It's one of the premier places 41 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,920 in the world for slot canyons and canyoneering. 42 00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:30,440 And so I was getting into it with some buddies and was kind 43 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,120 of at that like really excited beginner stage of, of acquiring 44 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,160 a new skill. So we were going out in a Canyon 45 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,520 called Behunen Canyon. Were you guiding canyoneering 46 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:42,560 trips too, or were you just learning how to guide at the 47 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,280 same time? No, this was this was like. 48 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:47,240 Kind of sorry, learning how to canyoneer. 49 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,360 I was learning how to canyoneer. I was definitely not guiding. 50 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,080 Canyoneering was. So you were a new can. 51 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,560 OK, gotcha. So you're with you and who? 52 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,400 Who else were you with? Yeah, so I was with two Co 53 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,920 workers, an old friend of mine who's also named Eric and then a 54 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:08,520 guy named Ben and my brother Dave who was not, he was out 55 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:10,400 from out of town and was visiting. 56 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,360 And so part of the reason that got us in trouble in the 1st 57 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:15,760 place was that my brother was out of town. 58 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:17,040 I wanted to show him canyoneering. 59 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,000 The only day that he could go was kind of a day with some iffy 60 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:26,520 weather, and we decided to to push push it in in what 61 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,800 hindsight was a bad pretty bad. If there's anything I know about 62 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:35,360 Eric, you like to push things. That's it's true. 63 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:40,560 I, I do have some bad habits or tendencies, I guess, where I, I 64 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,640 do have this like inherent belief that things will end up 65 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,840 for the best. And I and I think that that 66 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:52,720 quality has mostly served me well in life, except for when it 67 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:54,720 doesn't. And this was this is one of 68 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:55,840 those times. Yeah. 69 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,360 So, OK, So take me through that day, take me through the 70 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,120 preparation, take me through the can't, you know, bring me back 71 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,960 to what happened. Yeah, so Zion National Park, 72 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,920 Southwest Utah. It's August. 73 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,480 It is in the prime of monsoon season. 74 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:17,519 I had been doing a lot of canyoneering in the weeks and 75 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:22,280 lead up, up up to this had been in the Canyon in the National 76 00:04:22,280 --> 00:04:25,400 Park many, many, many times, including on days when there was 77 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:27,880 weather forecasts calling for some rain. 78 00:04:28,280 --> 00:04:33,680 So I was kind of like had felt like I was understanding of the 79 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,240 of the location of the kind of the behaviors of these places 80 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:39,720 when it would get rain and and things like that. 81 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:44,160 So my brother was coming into town and it was like, let's go 82 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,200 into the National Park and do do a trip. 83 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,960 So we drove really early, super early into the National Park, 84 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,680 picked up our permits. The National Park knew that we 85 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,520 were going to be going canyoneering that day. 86 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,520 So a lot of people in some of the other videos have like 87 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,800 commented as like the National Park would never let you go 88 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,640 canyoneering with weather, and that's actually not true. 89 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,840 They totally still issue permits for for Canyon ring. 90 00:05:08,840 --> 00:05:13,600 So we we go to the, the visitor center, we pick up our permits, 91 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,840 we take the shuttle into the Canyon. 92 00:05:15,840 --> 00:05:18,280 It drops us off at the same trailhead that goes up to 93 00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:22,680 Angel's Landing, which is one of the really famous hikes of 94 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,440 course in in Zion National Park. We get an early start as early 95 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,320 as we can. And our goal for the day, we 96 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,760 knew that there was some weather predicted for like 2:00 to 4:00 97 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:33,760 PM. We were just thinking like, 98 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:35,880 yeah, it's not the longest slot Canyon. 99 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:41,080 I think we can just get in, get the Canyon done, and then be out 100 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,680 of the Canyon before there's any real risk of anything happening. 101 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,480 I was kind of getting new into documentary filmmaking, so I had 102 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,640 camera equipment and stuff like that with me. 103 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,760 And so I was filming stuff which in hindsight also was like 104 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:55,360 slowing us down and things like that. 105 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:57,160 But we were moving through our Canyon. 106 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:01,400 We dropped in and I distinctly remember there was like this 107 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,920 dead deer right at the top of like our first rappel. 108 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,280 And we both, we all are all four of us were kind of like, oh, is 109 00:06:08,280 --> 00:06:09,840 this kind of like an ominous sign? 110 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:14,200 And we're like, should we do it? And this was this was 111 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:15,480 essentially the point of no return. 112 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:19,120 Once we dropped off the Cliff and repelled, the only way to 113 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,920 finish what we were doing is to continue down through the slot 114 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,400 Canyon and and finish up the the hike. 115 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,120 You know, you're in a deep chasm. 116 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,360 There's no escape except to get out, go through. 117 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,240 And so we decide we kind of take inventory of our little group of 118 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,520 four and we decide let's let's go for it, let's go down. 119 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:40,080 So we set up the rope, rig up the rope and drop down. 120 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,920 It's about 100 foot repel right out, right out of the gates. 121 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:51,080 And then, and then from there it was about 3 or 4 hour long hike 122 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,680 where we're continually doing the series of of repels and some 123 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,640 of them are really challenging and slow and you know, we get 124 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,680 really slowed down kind of getting through the tangles of 125 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,560 trees and down debris and stuff plus. 126 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,640 You're setting up, you're setting up ropes for what, 6 127 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,080 people, right? Is it 6 of you? 128 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,920 Well, there was four of us in the Canyon, yeah. 404 total. 129 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:11,760 OK all. Right. 130 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:13,240 Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's a 131 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:14,560 lot. Yeah. 132 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,480 So, you know, it just takes a lot of time for four people to 133 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,080 get. I think there is, I think I 134 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:24,280 recall there being something like 9 repels or something like 135 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:25,880 that. And to get four people through 9 136 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:30,560 repels with essentially like one rope. 137 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,280 We, we technically had two ropes, but we were really only 138 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,280 had enough gear to set up for big like one big repel at a 139 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,120 time. So we were just kind of slow. 140 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,600 Like more advanced teams would kind of like hopscotch each 141 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,400 other like setting up repels and stuff like that. 142 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,480 But we weren't that experienced or that good at doing it. 143 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:57,800 So it was definitely slow and it was a eerie feeling as we were 144 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,440 in like knowing that we were like essentially in the middle 145 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,880 of the Canyon and we're seeing clouds kind of float over. 146 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,000 You only see like this crack, crack of sky. 147 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:11,000 And seeing the blue sky disappear was was not a good 148 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:11,680 feeling. I bet. 149 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,840 Yeah. So so we keep going. 150 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:17,920 We're just trying to move through as fast as we can. 151 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:23,040 And we're really we're super. OK. 152 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:28,360 So to go back just to smidge, in our planning, we actually chose 153 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:34,280 this specific Canyon because of the relatively low flash flood 154 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:35,720 risk. Anytime when you're going 155 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,520 through these canyons, like say for a place like Buckskin Gulch, 156 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:43,120 which is a really famous super long Canyon that the drainage 157 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,840 that collects the rainwater is massive. 158 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,480 So it could be raining like 50 miles away and you could get a 159 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,880 flash flood in Buckskin Gulch, the place that we were at, it 160 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:58,280 really, it only has a tiny, tiny catchment basin, which means the 161 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,320 rainstorm has to be literally on top of you. 162 00:09:00,680 --> 00:09:05,440 It can't be like from something distant like, which definitely 163 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:09,080 happens in these deserts. But we were like, OK, the the 164 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,400 area of influence is really, really small. 165 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:19,240 And so we were about 80% of the way done and clouds are moving 166 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,280 overhead. It starts to rain on us. 167 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:24,840 But this is like the kind of first, it's just getting the 168 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,160 ground wet. Doesn't really seem like that 169 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,240 big of a deal. But this, this particular Canyon 170 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,200 has a huge final repel. It's kind of like the big draw 171 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,440 of the Canyon. It's a 300 foot repel, like 2 172 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,920 stage repel where you set up your rope and you go to this 173 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,600 little ledge in the middle. You're about like 150 feet off 174 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,320 the ground, little space to operate in. 175 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,000 You pull your ropes and then you set up your final free hanging 176 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,080 repel into the main Zion Canyon. It's really spectacular. 177 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:59,600 So we were like literally right there and it just starts to dump 178 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,920 us on us. It just is dousing us with rain, 179 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,200 like T-shirts, you know, soaking wet and we're just, you know, 180 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,160 trying to get through as fast as we can. 181 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,880 So it's one part exhilaration, one part terror. 182 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:16,560 But I I one thing that we didn't account for, We we're literally 183 00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:19,600 standing at the very top of the the final repel. 184 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:24,760 We kind of have this sense of security that was obviously 185 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,240 false. We thought that we were kind of 186 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:31,080 like, OK, all we have to do is get down here, one more drop and 187 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,720 and we'll be safe. So, but like you said before, 188 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,920 getting four people down like this, like set of repels is 189 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,160 really slow. And so I was actually the first 190 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,440 one to go down. And I'm kind of like, I'm at the 191 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:50,840 bottom filming and feeling pretty good about everything 192 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:52,360 'cause I'm waiting, just waiting. 193 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,760 And as soon as the crew's raining down, oh, it's, it's 194 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:00,320 like raining hard. And the, the weather patterns 195 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:05,320 that I've been observing, we're nothing compared to what we got. 196 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:10,920 We ended up in the like storm of the year, like quite literally, 197 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:15,240 it was like the type of storm that shut down the National 198 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,320 Park. It was not just like your casual 199 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,360 little rainstorm. There was like flash flooding 200 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,840 all over the, all over the national parks, debris washing 201 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:25,760 out roads like crazy, crazy stuff. 202 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:30,200 And we were in the literal worst place or close to the worst 203 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,360 place that you could, you could be when the rain was really 204 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,560 pounding down upon us. So I'm watching, I have this 205 00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:42,560 distinct memory of watching this stream of water come down the 206 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:47,960 cliffs and basically is the very front, the initial wave of of a 207 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,320 flash flood. And there was actually 2. 208 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,440 We're in one little drainage and just for the geology of the way 209 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,840 this place works out, there was another drainage coming out just 210 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,480 like literally 100 yards away from us. 211 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,000 There was like another Canyon coming in from like a different 212 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,840 spot that had like its final waterfall. 213 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,400 That one started flashing while we were rappelling down. 214 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:18,120 So that one is now got a stream of water coming, coming down. 215 00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:23,480 And for the again, the unique features of the of the this 216 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:29,600 exact layout, we descend into a, a, a pen of these house sized 217 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,040 boulders. It's kind of like a horseshoe of 218 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:33,920 boulders. If, if you can kind of picture 219 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,200 we got this giant wall here and then like multiple giant 220 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:43,040 boulders that have penned us in here and then a waterfall that's 221 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,800 immediately blocking our our path. 222 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,120 And so we finally get the last person down. 223 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,800 He's my buddy. Eric is literally rappelling 224 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:56,640 down in the onslaught of the flash flood coming down the 225 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,080 drainage, the Canyon that we've been hiking in. 226 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:04,760 He comes down and we, the four of us are just over the moon. 227 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,000 We think we have made it. You can like, we just like, are 228 00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:13,840 shouting with this relief that that we've made it, which was 229 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:36,410 premature to to say the least. We are down there under these 230 00:13:36,410 --> 00:13:39,890 boulders and there's a flash flood literally blocking our 231 00:13:39,890 --> 00:13:42,090 exit out of this little pen of boulders. 232 00:13:42,810 --> 00:13:45,850 And so the the four of us are kind of discussing what we 233 00:13:45,850 --> 00:13:50,010 should do. And it's amazing how just like 234 00:13:50,010 --> 00:13:53,170 one minute of indecision changed, changed everything. 235 00:13:53,170 --> 00:13:56,360 Come under here. I don't know what's going to 236 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:02,320 come down. Yeah, we might be able to get up 237 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:10,770 and over over there. Yeah, it is. 238 00:14:13,810 --> 00:14:15,210 Yeah. I was terrified for you. 239 00:14:15,210 --> 00:14:17,130 I thought you were going to get washed off. 240 00:14:18,610 --> 00:14:20,930 Holy guys, make sure we're under. 241 00:14:22,570 --> 00:14:23,690 I don't know what's going to come down. 242 00:14:23,690 --> 00:14:31,240 Can we get out over there? You might be about to get dumped 243 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:36,640 on here. Had we just gone through and 244 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:41,280 just like pushed it through this much smaller flash flood, we 245 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,760 would have been totally safe. We would have been, we were like 246 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,840 30 yards from pure, from total safety. 247 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,800 But we we hesitated. We were kind of hemmed and hawed 248 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,720 just a little bit about this like little flash flood that was 249 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,040 happening. And then like in an instant, 250 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:01,040 everything changed, wall of water comes down on us and start 251 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,440 we're started getting like peppered with like rocks and 252 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,760 logs and like little like the initial debris that's often at 253 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:08,280 the forefront of these flash floods. 254 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,320 So all we can think to do is just duck under these boulders. 255 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,480 There's just like the slightest little overhang that gives us 256 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:19,160 about 3 or 4 feet of quote UN quote protection. 257 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,960 And so we just like dive under the boulders and our new plan is 258 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:41,930 just waited out. Lord protect us, God keep us 259 00:15:41,970 --> 00:15:45,090 safe. I pray a hedge of protection 260 00:15:45,090 --> 00:15:47,450 around us right now. Nothing will hit us. 261 00:15:48,050 --> 00:15:50,090 We will not drown, we will not be swept away. 262 00:15:52,090 --> 00:15:53,970 We will be perfectly safe in Jesus name. 263 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:09,600 This is absolutely insane. We had no idea what was coming 264 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:15,000 and for the next 45 minutes we are totally pinned, completely 265 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,240 stuck. It's like blackout dark, despite 266 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,560 the fact that it's mid afternoon because the amount of water 267 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:27,680 coming off of this Cliff, the out of this slot Canyon is so 268 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,440 much volume of water. It's literally coming down, 269 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,880 hitting this humongous house sized boulder like a two-story 270 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,120 house sized boulder and completely enveloping it. 271 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:42,160 It's just like shrouded in all of this massive volume of water 272 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,160 and we're just like 4 little ants stuck under the boulder 273 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,360 clinging to rocks trying not to get washed away. 274 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:53,360 And I'm, I have distinct memories of just sitting there 275 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:59,000 in essentially like pushing against multiple rocks. 276 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,400 Water is at my belly. I'm like hunkered down, just 277 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,359 trying not to get washed away. It's so incredibly loud. 278 00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:09,839 The four of us are right next to each other. 279 00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:12,800 We're shouting at the top of our lungs and we can't tell what the 280 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,240 other people are what like the person right next to us is 281 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:26,280 saying. So like our ability to 282 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:31,320 communicate to like make a plan, total, total chaos. 283 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,720 We, we are just trying to hold on for dear life at this at this 284 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:37,480 point. Are you at a point where you 285 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,560 were you like in a spot where if you moved, you're going to fall? 286 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:45,880 No, we wouldn't fall. But so the volume of water we 287 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:50,920 were like right on the edge of where if, if we were to go like 288 00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:54,960 2 feet forward, we would have not only been out of the 289 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,320 protection of this 300 foot waterfall pounding down. 290 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,800 That would probably have just crushed us, but it would also 291 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:07,880 have just simultaneously swept us down Canyon and which also we 292 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,040 were right above another large waterfall. 293 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:15,400 So getting swept down Canyon would have been like you would 294 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,400 have gone off of another 100 foot Cliff and you would have 295 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,680 been that would be the end. You'd the survival of that is 296 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:44,830 almost completely unlikely. What was the temperature of the 297 00:18:44,830 --> 00:18:45,990 water? Do you remember? 298 00:18:46,030 --> 00:18:48,430 It was very cold. So as you can imagine, even 299 00:18:48,430 --> 00:18:51,830 though it's summertime, Zion National Park, Utah, normal 300 00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:54,710 daytime temperature that day was probably like 100°. 301 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,960 The water temperature from this monsoon storm was, was probably 302 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,160 like in the 60s, something like that. 303 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:05,440 So it was a lot colder. And then so that's where if you 304 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,960 can imagine like 45 minutes of just getting doused with a 60° 305 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:14,400 water, the next thing, the next thing that's the danger zone is 306 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:19,680 hypothermia. And so I, I remember like trying 307 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:23,160 to communicate and like words not coming out of my mouth, the 308 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:27,080 basically like slurred speech. The, the early onset of 309 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,480 hypothermia was we were, we were definitely getting hypothermic. 310 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:36,680 So that was my next alert was like, OK, waiting the storm out. 311 00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:39,000 We could be here another three hours. 312 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,880 And if we're in here for three hours, we're going to have 313 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,840 severe hypothermia, probably become unconscious and then get 314 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:46,880 swept away or something like that. 315 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:51,200 Like, so then the new thing became we have to get out of 316 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,760 here. We can't just wait. 317 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:59,440 So I'm like, I'm holding on to my little GoPro. 318 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:04,960 It's like my only little source of sort of feeling like I have 319 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,320 any sense of control in this experience. 320 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,800 The the four of us are trying to communicate, but it's chaos, 321 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,760 getting hypothermia. It's really, really a dangerous 322 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,120 situation. And this is where like I was, 323 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,160 I'm thinking like, Oh my God, this is how I die. 324 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,080 My brother's with me. It's just me and my brother in 325 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,200 in our family. And the thought that went 326 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,640 through my head was this GoPro that I'm holding on that I'm 327 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,920 filming stuff with. We're going to die. 328 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,360 It's going to get washed away. Somebody's going to find this 329 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:39,120 GoPro and my parents are going to watch how their two sons 330 00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:42,600 died. And that was 100% what was like 331 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:44,480 going through going through my head. 332 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:55,320 So oddly enough, it almost that instead of like despair, it kind 333 00:20:55,320 --> 00:21:00,560 of in a sense like makes you focus it like makes everything 334 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:05,560 get like a little sharper. And so I knew like we have to 335 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,400 get out of here. So the four of us, we're, we're 336 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,680 trying our best to communicate, but it's not really working that 337 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,240 well. We're kind of just like saying 338 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,720 random things about like what the ropes are doing. 339 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,520 And you know, the ropes are just getting thrashed in the storm. 340 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:24,640 We didn't have time to pull them down and we notice just the 341 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:29,040 slightest change in the flow of water where it was like almost 342 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,000 pitch black where we were. It just started to get a little 343 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,720 bit lighter. And so we are starting to think 344 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:52,010 like, OK, this is it. It could, it could come back at 345 00:21:52,010 --> 00:21:53,930 any minute. We have to, we have to go for 346 00:21:53,930 --> 00:21:55,370 it. We've already been in the in the 347 00:21:55,370 --> 00:22:00,290 water for over 45 minutes, got like 45 minutes of footage of 348 00:22:00,290 --> 00:22:02,570 this GoPro, which is kind of how I know how long it took. 349 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,200 But we're like, we've, we've got to, we've got to just make a 350 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,080 break for it. So we kind of crawl in this tiny 351 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,200 little crack that we were using for safety. 352 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:17,720 We crawl along right next to this massive flow of water 353 00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:21,640 pinned up against this boulder and we try to make it around. 354 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,120 And like I said a little bit ago the whole time, if we could just 355 00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:30,960 get around the boulder and over a, a flow of flash flood, we'd 356 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,280 be safe. We were literally 30 feet from 357 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:39,480 safety this this whole time. And so we just were crawling for 358 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,680 it. We're we're making our break and 359 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,960 the, the obstacle that we have to get over is a flash flood. 360 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,560 And there's like a couple of like logs and stuff that have 361 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,760 somewhere in time. I don't think it was from that 362 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,920 flash flood, but had been like washed down and created a really 363 00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:02,720 poor unsafe bridge, if you will. And that was what we had to to 364 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:09,520 crawl over and cross. And my I, I would been wearing a 365 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,560 backpack the whole time. And the whole time just water 366 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,360 and sand has been coming down and filling up my backpack. 367 00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:21,000 And I didn't realize it until I'm trying to crawl over this 368 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:26,080 like rickety, this set of logs that could totally just collapse 369 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:31,680 and I'd be washed away in my backpack has like 3540 lbs of 370 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,720 sand in it. And I'm like hypothermic and 371 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,120 struggling. And my brother had already made 372 00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:40,560 it across and he sees I'm like the last one to go across at 373 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:42,760 this point. And he sees that I'm like kind 374 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,320 of slipping and struggling. And he just literally like leans 375 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,480 over, grabs me by my backpack and just like pulls me up and 376 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:57,400 over and like saves me. And then finally we were on the 377 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,920 other side and we, we escaped. We were. 378 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:02,280 We were able to get out of there. 379 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,640 Did you end up going to a hospital like what? 380 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,560 You could be treated for hypothermia or anything like 381 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,080 that at all. Nope. 382 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:46,040 So we get we get out and there's a there's a shuttle running and 383 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,240 but the shuttle, we get on the shuttle thinking everything was 384 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,720 normal, but the bus driver was like, we've been looking for you 385 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,480 boys, you guys, you were the crew that was in Bahunin, right? 386 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,000 I was like, yeah, that we're like covered in like debris and 387 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,400 sand and we're just like looking super haggard and crazy. 388 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:07,080 And he, he, the bus basically like the shuttle drivers had 389 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,600 been looking for hikers and the rate the National Park because 390 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,080 they had a we had a permit. They knew that we had been in 391 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,320 the Canyon. They were looking for us. 392 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,760 And then they like radioed it in. 393 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,800 We got driven back to the visitor center. 394 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,400 We're able to get in a car, crank up the heat, warm up and 395 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,760 we just like. So how long were? 396 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:28,920 You down there that they started looking for you? 397 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,240 That seems kind of interesting. I mean, well, they didn't mount 398 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,640 a rescue. They were just like they, So it 399 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,240 was, to be clear, it was not a search and rescue thing. 400 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,680 It was just, I think the National Park was aware of like, 401 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,400 OK, we have like 5 parties that have been that registered and 402 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,160 they're like in the canyons today. 403 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,880 Be on the lookout for any straggling hikers because they 404 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:53,840 closed the park. The park had been closed for 405 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,080 like 3 hours at that point. So the only people running the 406 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,160 shuttles were just evacuating people essentially trying to get 407 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,640 people out of the park. So the drivers knew that there 408 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,800 was still a party of four that they were, they were looking 409 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:13,680 for. Probably if, if we yeah, I 410 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,320 think, I think we probably would have been like maybe six hours 411 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,960 away from something like maybe a search and rescue getting 412 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,400 getting called and looking, looking for us. 413 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:24,720 Holy cow. Yeah. 414 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:29,120 So if if we had been in a like further up in the Canyon, we 415 00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:31,720 would have probably been, had we not been. 416 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,760 The Canyon ring is such a unique thing because like in this 417 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,640 Canyon, there were a dozen places that if we had been when 418 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,040 the flash flood had moved through, we could have just sat 419 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:45,520 on higher ground and just waited. 420 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,480 And we probably, we probably would have had to wait until 421 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,680 like 9:00 that night or something like a long time. 422 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,280 But we could have just like waited it out. 423 00:26:55,440 --> 00:27:00,040 Also simultaneously, had we been in half a dozen other places, 424 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,480 there'd be just sheer walls and nowhere to go. 425 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,520 And we just would have been swept to the Canyon off the 300 426 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:11,080 foot Cliff, certain death. And we were just caught in this 427 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:16,080 like really odd part of the Canyon where we were both at in 428 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,560 grave danger. But we're so close to safety. 429 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:24,160 And ultimately, even though we were in this flash flood drama 430 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,840 for an hour, we were able to escape with our lives, which is 431 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,400 also like, had we had we literally probably taken 10 more 432 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,440 minutes the whole time, the whole day or just been 10 433 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,680 minutes later, we would have been swept off. 434 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:44,480 I think the the top repel and are one or all four of us 435 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,000 probably would have died that day. 436 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,640 Oh my gosh, have you been there since? 437 00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:51,160 I've been to Zion. I have not been back through the 438 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,000 Canyon. Have you been canyoneering? 439 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:59,560 I've done other canyons and that one has it's, it's obviously 440 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,400 like a place where a significant event happened for me in, in my 441 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,840 life. So I, I want to go back. 442 00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:10,040 I actually want to go back with my friend Eric, who's also like 443 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,400 one of my kind of long time adventure buddies and just go 444 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,720 and kind of have that kind of cathartic type of experience of 445 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,720 not doing it in in monsoon season and trying to kind of 446 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,600 like, I don't know, just revisit this place that was a huge part 447 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,400 of our lives. But no, I haven't been back. 448 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:30,600 How? How do you feel thinking about 449 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:35,120 it? It's weird, it's been 13 years 450 00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:36,720 and it still brings up emotion for me. 451 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:38,400 I bet. Yeah. 452 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:43,360 Do you feel like it's something that you need to go back to? 453 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:46,760 I've definitely thought about it. 454 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:52,840 I don't know if I don't know if need is the right word, but I'm 455 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:57,640 really curious what would I'm open because I actually have no 456 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,720 idea what would even be stirred up for me if I were to go back. 457 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,920 I think to just like go back and like hike to the to the base of 458 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,400 the of the Cliff, I think would be 1 experience and it would be 459 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,840 a whole other experience to actually do the Canyon again and 460 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,760 to go through and kind of put myself in that that risk of 461 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,120 being back in the slot Canyon. I think that I. 462 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:30,600 Think that would bring up a lot more for me of of like feeling 463 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,440 that like sense of your you don't have control. 464 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,840 If like if another weather thing comes in, you could you could be 465 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:43,360 again in parallel again. I think that's what would really 466 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,680 kind of maybe not spook me, but probably stir up a lot of the 467 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,960 old emotions that I felt. Well, what, what was it like to 468 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,680 do any Canyon during for you? Was that did that trigger 469 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,920 anything for you? The other canyons that I did, I 470 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,360 got a lot more conservative after doing this, as you can 471 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:09,080 kind of imagine. So it actually wasn't, oddly 472 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,760 enough, it wasn't a canyoneering event that triggered more things 473 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:17,120 for me. But I do remember it was not 474 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,360 long after, it was like 2 weeks later, I was in the field 475 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,440 working for my wilderness therapy company backpacking, not 476 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,320 in a slot Canyon. Had a monsoon storm come down 477 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,840 and like rain really heavy on us enough so that like these little 478 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,320 small little rivulets would fill up with water and the, you know, 479 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,480 the desert starts kind of flowing with water again. 480 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,120 And I almost had a panic attack. Like it literally I was not in 481 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:48,120 any physical danger, but the storm, the, the senses of like 482 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,480 the this like intense monsoon storm coming down and just 483 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:56,240 seeing water like build up and start flowing made me like seize 484 00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,440 up and elevated heart rate started like looking for escapes 485 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,600 and stuff like that. And that was, that was the thing 486 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,480 that was like, whoa, I'm, I think I have a little bit of 487 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,000 trauma about this. Well, you know, I mean, those 488 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,560 are signs of PTSD for sure. I, I had a, the other people 489 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,440 that I've interviewed that I've been through extreme situations. 490 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,000 I, I, I don't know that all of them, but most of them have gone 491 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,080 back and almost all of them that I remember talking to were at 492 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,080 the request of somebody like a counselor or something because 493 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,040 it brought closure. And, you know, you and I went 494 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,920 through our experience at the Grand Canyon and hearing you 495 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,160 talk about that, how your experience and just going to a 496 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,960 different Canyon was exactly how I felt. 497 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,200 Just going back to the Grand Canyon at a totally different 498 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:54,120 location, completely safe, not nearly the situation that we 499 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,480 were in before, but feeling those exact same emotions. 500 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,240 And it was, but it was like that, that experience where at 501 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:08,160 least I felt like I had to, I had to, I had to face something 502 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:14,480 to overcome something that was overcoming me for that year 503 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:19,160 since because I I yeah, I, I, it was, it was paralyzing to even 504 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:20,840 drive up to the Grand Canyon for me. 505 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,880 I can't imagine what it would have been like to grab ropes to 506 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,440 head out the door already, even say yes to a Canyon ring trip 507 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,400 again for you. Yeah, that blows my mind that 508 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,600 you're able to do that and you're open to even going back. 509 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,320 Well, you know, I think it's like when like maybe a climber 510 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,400 has like an accident or something like that. 511 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,480 Like for some people it literally will end their 512 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,480 climbing career, but for some people it's like they will still 513 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,640 climb, but it's that the climb that it happened on is where the 514 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,360 sort of trauma was and other climbing isn't necessarily so 515 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,880 traumatic. And I kind of think that that 516 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,920 might be the case for me. Like for some reason, I could go 517 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,560 into other canyons and really enjoy it. 518 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:09,000 But there's something about like the this Bahunin Canyon, and 519 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,400 it's kind of like got this spook that's like, man, I don't know 520 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,840 if I'm ready for that Canyon. Have you talked to the other 521 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,720 guys since? What's the conversation been 522 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,200 like? You know, you're our brother 523 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,160 you've obviously spoken to, but what are other people feeling or 524 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,080 dealing with and have they can't gone canyoneering? 525 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:28,320 Have they gone back? Yeah, so, well, I, I know my 526 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,760 buddy Eric, actually, he's somebody that I have done a 527 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,960 number of canyons with. We've continued to go. 528 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,040 He, he lives in Flagstaff where I live and we go out into the 529 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,080 desert and we, we go do do stuff. 530 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,640 So I know that he also, you know, even though he had his own 531 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,520 experience, like we've definitely like gone back into 532 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:54,640 canyons. My other buddy, Ben, I kind of 533 00:33:54,640 --> 00:34:00,280 have lost touch with him as it's been a decade, but I, I think 534 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,240 he's just living in the Midwest and I don't think he's done. 535 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:05,600 I don't think he's touched it since. 536 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:12,719 As for my brother, I know that we both had kind of these like a 537 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,840 bit of an emotional journey, if you will. 538 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,960 And I think that my brother and I have spoken about it a little 539 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,920 bit, not necessarily like a a ton. 540 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:31,679 I think we had sort of similar, but a little bit of a crossing 541 00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:34,800 experience in that. I think for my brother, it was 542 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,159 one of those types of things where it made him look at some 543 00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:42,360 of his life and reassess what he was doing. 544 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:47,520 And kind of like was was in a, in one sense, like a little bit 545 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:52,080 of a wake up call. Whereas for me, my wake up call 546 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,400 was more about I felt guilt around the risk that I put. 547 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,320 I felt like the party leader. I felt like I was guilty of 548 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,480 having put people at risk. But I would say in terms of the 549 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:08,560 near death experience, an interesting event for me was 550 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:14,880 that I felt like it was almost reaffirming that I was like, I, 551 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:19,080 I was guiding in Utah. I was, I had recently gone 552 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,240 through a big life change where I had previously just gotten. 553 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,080 The reason why I was guiding in Utah in the 1st place was 554 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,400 because I was recently divorced at the time. 555 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,880 And I took this job guiding kind of to like heal my soul. 556 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,280 And I felt like I was absolutely in the right place. 557 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,080 I felt like I was doing things for my life that were needed, 558 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:47,280 that were ultimately like good. And so there was a, a feeling 559 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,360 that happened was like, well, if I die doing what in the 560 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,880 direction that I've going, I feel like I can accept that it 561 00:35:54,880 --> 00:36:00,760 was just my time to go. And I, it almost like gave me 562 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,920 more motivation to keep doing what I was doing it it's kind 563 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,520 of, I don't know if that makes a lot of sense, but instead of 564 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,160 hitting like a rock bottom and it being like a wake up call, 565 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:11,680 like what am I doing with my life? 566 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:17,960 It was like, oh, I had the sense that if I die, I die. 567 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,240 And I'm doing it. What I'm doing, what I love, I'm 568 00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:24,160 doing it chasing a life that I'm really passionate about. 569 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,840 I'm doing things that I feel like are ultimately meaningful 570 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,080 for me. And so if this is how I go, then 571 00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:36,560 I can accept that. I it's, I'm only laughing 572 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,560 because I, I hearing you say that I'm replaying my own 573 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,800 situation because you were there for, for mine. 574 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:48,760 And I've, I remember, I, I just remember if I'm going to die, 575 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:50,880 just just kill. Just let's just do it. 576 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,440 Let's just get it over. Like it was this prolonged 577 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,760 experience for me, like let's just get it over with, man. 578 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:03,040 Like, and, and I felt what I think is interesting for people 579 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,440 that maybe have had a near death experience. 580 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,280 Everybody's is obviously different, but I think ours may 581 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,760 be similar in that, you know, if you, if you put yourself, you 582 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,440 think, oh, if I had a near death experience, I'd be trying to 583 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,480 call my family and do all these things and blah, blah, blah. 584 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,080 And you're just, it wasn't like that for me. 585 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:24,160 It was just like, OK, this is it, let's go, let's just do it. 586 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,360 Let's just get it over like, like, I don't want to die like 587 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:28,440 that. That'd be that'd be nice to not 588 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:34,440 die, but you know, but if I'm going to go, you know, exactly 589 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,880 like at least I'm not doing something I shouldn't be doing. 590 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,600 You know what I mean? Like I, I'm doing something I 591 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,520 love. I'm in a I'm in a spot with 592 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,520 friends, family, you know, I wasn't robbing a bank or 593 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:51,880 something, you know, but it was it like that for you? 594 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:53,720 Did you feel that way at all? I mean, was it? 595 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,040 I, I mean, I guess I would say like in a sense that it wasn't 596 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:02,080 like a let's get this over with, which I'm not exactly sure if 597 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,760 that's your take away, but it was like there was a kind of I. 598 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,920 Felt I'm like let's just go. That's funny. 599 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,880 That's an interesting reaction. I no, I didn't feel like I think 600 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,960 I felt like this could be all be over like this. 601 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:21,920 I was in the moment thinking like I could be dead in the next 602 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,240 minute like that is a strange thought. 603 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:26,680 And that was the only time in my life I've ever had those 604 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:32,720 feelings, those thoughts. But I also was both, I think, at 605 00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:39,280 peace about it and was kind of like my resolve was like also 606 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,120 kicking in where I was like, no, we're going to figure out a way 607 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,960 to get through this, which ultimately we obviously did. 608 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,880 So it's kind of like almost like a sharpening of everything. 609 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,800 Yeah, I mean that that was there for me too. 610 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,320 I felt like that fight or flight sort of thing was there too, you 611 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:56,880 know, Otherwise I would have just gave up. 612 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,360 I was just thinking like, well, why hasn't this happened yet? 613 00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:04,400 Yeah. Like, if I'm going to like, just 614 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,640 do it already because this is torture, you know? 615 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:14,240 So now that you've had this experience, would you remove 616 00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:18,040 this out of your life or has this done OK? 617 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:23,920 Why? So I would definitely not remove 618 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:29,080 it from my life. I think if anything it was in a 619 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,440 in a way that I deal. Is it the movie deal? 620 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:41,160 I mean, no, but it was good for my career, but that's not why I 621 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:45,120 wouldn't take it out of my life like so as a as a much very 622 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,240 small scale, no book deal, no movie deal, but I was working on 623 00:39:48,240 --> 00:39:50,480 a little documentary, just a little independent film. 624 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:57,080 And what was from the financial benefit that I had was the 625 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,960 Springdale IMAX movie theater showed my little documentary for 626 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:06,640 like 8 months every day. And so I ended up making I think 627 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:11,840 something like $12,000 from this deal that I made with the the 628 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,720 movie theater at the time. That was actually a massive 629 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,240 deal. It was the same thing that 630 00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:23,320 allowed me to go from working in wilderness therapy to become a 631 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,720 free a full time. I quit that job and go full time 632 00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:28,400 freelance. And to do all of the things that 633 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:33,720 I'm doing now worked in television, the, the, the free, 634 00:40:33,720 --> 00:40:36,720 the, the flash flood didn't directly lead to television, but 635 00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:40,160 it led to the things that have kind of allowed me to do what 636 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:45,600 I'm doing now, you know, essentially honing my craft as a 637 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:50,360 filmmaker, photographer now, now YouTube it. 638 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,680 And like I said, it also kind of like steeled my resolve to be 639 00:40:54,680 --> 00:41:00,200 like, I'm doing the right thing. Which Fast forward about a year, 640 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:05,760 that $12,000 I earned was like literally all I earned for like 641 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:10,440 a year of my life. I was dirt poor, but I also felt 642 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:15,400 like I'm doing the thing that I love, the thing that I know that 643 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,360 I and I had this light near death experience and I was like, 644 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,120 wouldn't change it. I it, I think that it's part of 645 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:28,520 what has given me the like endurance to keep going in this 646 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,960 industry where most people want to be in and start doing, but 647 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:37,440 then have like a tough year or two or three and are just like, 648 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,680 I'm out. But I felt like I was reassured 649 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:42,720 that I was doing the right thing. 650 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:51,480 Wow, holy cow, man. Well, any other cool things come 651 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,440 out of this for you at all? I would say the other big thing 652 00:41:55,440 --> 00:42:01,920 that came out of it for me was a greater respect for nature, risk 653 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,880 taking, leadership, decision making, things that I had been 654 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:10,880 pretty cavalier about that. I think also without that 655 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,920 experience, I think I could have made other cascading decisions 656 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:19,440 that would have put me or others at risk to, to greater degrees. 657 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,960 So I think it was a big learning moment for me in terms of risk 658 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,240 management leadership in the outdoors. 659 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:31,400 And, and just like it was humbling too, Like I totally had 660 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,000 this idea that could just like, we'll be fine, we'll do 661 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,520 anything, no big deal. If it rains, it rains, we'll 662 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,920 just figure it out, which sort of to an extent happened, but it 663 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:47,200 was it was from a place of kind of like this cavalier almost 664 00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:53,560 needing to be humbled stand like and and Mother Nature definitely 665 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:59,040 humbled us pretty good. If you could say somebody who's 666 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,760 who's about to do something that maybe they're nervous to do 667 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,680 because of risk involved, what advice would you have for that 668 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,520 person? I think that's tough because a 669 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,200 lot of times I feel like people choose to choose to not do 670 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:16,960 something because of risk, but the thing actually isn't that 671 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,320 risky or they should trust it and just go for it. 672 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,480 Like trying canyoneering, like go with some guided 673 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:25,600 professionals. And even if it scares you half 674 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,840 to death, I think it's still worth pushing those risk 675 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:33,520 boundaries. But at the same time, like, like 676 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:40,680 I was pushing the risk where I was like, didn't, I didn't 677 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,320 treat, I'd say Mother Nature with the enough respect. 678 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:49,720 And, and that's where it is like I, I don't, I don't know what 679 00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:53,560 the take away is for, for somebody else, because half the 680 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,400 time I do feel like people are restrained by too much fear in 681 00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:02,120 life, You know, like choosing how, what decisions to make as 682 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:06,680 risk taking in the, in the outdoors is a, is a fine line, 683 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,720 like what some people are capable of athletes, 684 00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:13,000 Mountaineers. Like, I wouldn't necessarily say 685 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,040 that everybody should be pushing boundaries like that. 686 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:21,080 But I also think the outdoors, a lot of people have irrationally 687 00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:25,480 high fear of the outdoors where they could go camp or backpack 688 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,520 or go climbing on, on trips and they'd be totally fine. 689 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,920 So it is like, it's kind of like understanding your, your skill 690 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,440 set, I think is a is a big part of it. 691 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,120 Understanding where you're deficient. 692 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,800 In hindsight, I was, I think, the most dangerous level of 693 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,920 competent. And by that I mean I was growing 694 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,320 a skill set. I was not a beginner, but I 695 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,400 wasn't experienced enough to know how much I didn't know. 696 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,520 Sure. And but you. 697 00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:56,200 You didn't do anything. I don't in hearing your story. 698 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,600 There's nothing that I would have pointed at and gone you. 699 00:44:59,920 --> 00:45:03,200 That's where you went wrong. Like, this is the one, you know, 700 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,360 Unless you're talking about some sort of an inexperience in 701 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:10,040 choosing a Canyon that may have been bigger than what you guys 702 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,560 were ready for, but other than that, it didn't sound like there 703 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,520 was anything you guys did wrong that you could have avoided. 704 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,400 I think we just had a, a, a cavalier approach to the 705 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:23,560 weather, which I, I had decision. 706 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,240 I think I can rationalize my decisions a lot with like, oh, 707 00:45:27,240 --> 00:45:29,440 I'd been, I'd been in, I knew the place well. 708 00:45:29,720 --> 00:45:33,480 I'd been out there all summer. I'd been watching the storms and 709 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:35,960 none of them had been like these serious events. 710 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:40,640 And yeah, there was kind of like a a mix of bad luck where the 711 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:44,480 what there was weather forecast that in hindsight we shouldn't 712 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:49,320 have ignored, but the the event ended up being like 10 times 713 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,800 bigger than what anybody had predicted. 714 00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:54,240 And that's what like really got us in trouble. 715 00:45:54,240 --> 00:45:56,600 But I also think in hindsight, it just we shouldn't have been 716 00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:01,720 in the Canyon that day. We we just tried to push it even 717 00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:06,120 though we knew, you know, like Canyon during one O 1 is monsoon 718 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,800 season is the worst time to go Canyon hearing doesn't mean you 719 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,600 can't go canyoneering. It just means if, if you're 720 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:16,320 going to be in a Canyon with a flash flood potential on a day 721 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,400 with weather, you better really know what you're doing. 722 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,160 And in hindsight, we were just too slow. 723 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,680 We we weren't quick enough with like setting everything up and 724 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,040 we weren't experienced enough where probably a more 725 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:31,440 experienced person would have either been able to slip through 726 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:35,520 that Canyon in a just like two or three hours, would have never 727 00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,760 been at risk, or they would have said, let's just wait until 728 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,600 tomorrow and it's fine. Like, yeah. 729 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:45,880 And you know, we should have just waited. 730 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,320 In hindsight, you don't know what you don't know, right? 731 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:50,200 I mean, you would have gotten through there and never known 732 00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:55,280 that maybe you did do something like not check the weather as 733 00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,480 well. You know, you'd have just gone 734 00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:59,600 on with your life and never would have known the wiser. 735 00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,560 And I think in our situation with me and the Grand Canyon, 736 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,240 the same thing. Had I made it to the top, I 737 00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:06,040 never would have thought in a million years that I would have 738 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,920 gotten grabbed in my Oasis ever, that it was even a thing. 739 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,120 I would have gone on with my life never knowing about it. 740 00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,960 So inside is always 2020, going back into it, into a microscope. 741 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,080 But yeah, well, I'm glad you're here. 742 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,640 I'm glad too. And I, and I think 11 last, I 743 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:27,720 guess final thought is like for somebody like you and me or, you 744 00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:33,560 know, people who spend 20 years of like consistently being in 745 00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,800 the wilderness in the Backcountry, we're going to rack 746 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,680 up some stories of man, the time that things went wrong. 747 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,080 And to like you said, like I don't necessarily always think 748 00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,760 that I was just like a total Dumbo out there. 749 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,080 I just think like, like when you, if you spend your whole 750 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,040 life driving a car, you're probably going to have a couple 751 00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:55,920 of car accidents. Exactly. 752 00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,040 Amount of time in those places, something might happen. 753 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:05,520 And I think that is also like the the time in the Grand Canyon 754 00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:09,880 with you and the time in the flash flood in, in Utah. 755 00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,680 It's like 20 years of pretty consistently being in in the 756 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,600 wilderness. And I have two pretty serious 757 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,760 like events. But that's also, I think, like, 758 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,880 actually I'd take that trade. Yeah. 759 00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:26,440 It just is like just going to happen. 760 00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,480 Stuff will happen at some point. I don't know if that's 761 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,560 comforting. No, I mean it is what it is. 762 00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,400 Everything is risky. Being at home is you know you 763 00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,600 can. Driving a car is the most 764 00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,240 dangerous thing we do in life. This light could fall on my head 765 00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:45,320 and kill me at any moment. That would have been really 766 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,680 cool. That would be good timing. 767 00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:50,760 Yeah. All right. 768 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:52,280 Well, thanks man. I appreciate you. 769 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:56,160 Appreciate the your time and hanging out with me today and 770 00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:58,840 any final words, no pun intended. 771 00:49:01,240 --> 00:49:04,720 I'm just thankful to be here. I love, I love being a part of 772 00:49:04,720 --> 00:49:08,480 your your survival series. I think that it's, you know, we 773 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:13,040 have a fascination with the survival stories and I'm I'm 774 00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,960 glad that I could be here to tell the tale to to you. 775 00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,040 So thanks for having me. On man appreciate it.