So all the vanilla that are implemented in other part of the
world have to be hand pollinated.
So every morning during the season, which is in September
and October in Madagascar, women because smaller finger will go
and you know, it needs vine that they have in on their piece of
land. They will hand pollinate.
And I've done that step when I went to Yeah.
So they take like a little, usually a thorn.
Hello chefs, this is Chefs PSA and I'm your host Andre Natera.
Today I'm joined by my friend Emmanuel La Roche, host of
Flavors Unknown podcast and author focused on global food
culture. We talked about his journey to
Madagascar, home to most of the world's vanilla, his experiences
travelling through remote regions, and how that led to his
latest book, A Taste of Madagascar.
We get into his writing process, what he's learned from chefs
around the world, global food trends and global flavors.
Stay tuned. What was the most wild thing?
Like, can you, can you think of a moment when you were in
Madagascar that you were like, oh, I'm in a I'm in.
Like, do you have a story that's like, OK.
Yeah, it's a long story, but yes.
OK, so there was a special trip that I have taken, not on my own
because in Madagascar you cannot, you know, rent a car and
just decide that, you know, to go like this you need to have a
driver. So I decided to stay an extra
week after, you know, my guests, American chef, you know, left
and went back to to the US and I went to the West side of the
country and there is National Park that I wanted to spend time
on. And it took 9 hours in Dart Road
to get from where I landed to the park. 9 hours one way, one
hours another the way back. And we were on, you know, on our
own that the driver, I was sitting, you know, the pass
entrance seats and, and I thought he was like nervous, but
I had no idea why. And I was asking questions, you
know, of course, you know, going into through villages and
fantastic landscapes and so on. So I was asking him and, and I
said, Hey, you're a bit nervous, so why?
And he said, no, no, everything is fine.
You know, I guess he had, you know, some directive or like,
you know, not to share too much. And then then I started to
understand asking questions that we should not have not have been
on our own. We should have been part of the
convoy of a series of, you know, cars like about 25, you know, 4
wheel drives. And because of the fact that I
needed some cash at the bank when I landed, we started late
because there was a line in the bank and blah, blah, blah.
And so he said, yeah, we should have been part of that.
And but we are going to, you know, to join them.
They are going to wait for us. And, you know, next village
probably and next village, no cars.
And the guys was really now pale white.
And, you know, his knuckles was really like tense, like on the
wheel. And I'm like, OK, now you have
to tell me what is going on here.
He said, OK, what happened? He is that there is bandits in a
group of bandits in the region that we are just crossing at the
moment. And they are in fact stealing
handbag cows, which is one of the big, I would say sign of
wealth, you know, in, you know, for farmers in in Madagascar.
And there's a tradition that when you are moving from, you
know, a teenage yours as a boy to an adulthood, then you are to
go to the next tribe and steal, you know, those kind of.
Like a rite of passage. Exactly a rite of passage.
And but what happened is that tradition, in fact, turning to
some group of bandits, you know, in other part of the of the
country. And I learned from my driver
that if they don't find, you know, the cattle to steal, then
they will go back to and, you know, return on like whatever
they can find. And usually it's some of the
tourist cars are passing by, you know, and he said a few years
back, so he was before COVID, you know, there was one car that
was stopped and in fact, there was a shooting and, you know,
someone was injured and I'm not, oh, oh, OK, so now I, I get it.
But he said he's getting, we are fine now.
We, we passed that zone. And so I, I spend my time at the
National Park. He was, he was amazing
experience. And then on the way back, I'm
like, OK, how is it going to be, you know, what's going to be the
situation? And this time we were at 25
cars. I was on the front car and
someone from the Army, like really went on that side to go
in the back of the car and there was a guys with a rifle, you
know, sitting on the front seat. So there was another guy in the
middle of the convoy and another one on the last car.
And we went through, you know, a series of village and villages
and and, you know, and everything was fine.
But but I was, you know, a type of a interesting adventure that,
you know, that took place. What what inspired this?
So for people that don't know, you just wrote this beautiful
book, which I've been, I've been flipping through the last couple
of days. I'm enjoying it.
It's a beautiful book, by the way, great photography and there
wonderful recipes. What inspired this?
Because you know, I'm thinking back to when we spoke right
before you started writing this. And I remember you asking me
like, what do you think about Madagascar and vanilla?
And, and you said there's more to the story.
And, and at the time I was like, well, I don't, I don't know
anything. So then you went and you, you
took, you took some chefs with you.
Yeah, so, So what happened is that my I did 3 trips to to the
island. One was professional and then
two were like personal vacation. The first one, I really went to
Madagascar because of Venida. If people don't know 80% of the
world production of Venida being comes from that island come from
Madagascar. So I organized my like day job.
I organized like competition with one of our vanilla extracts
that was for the hospitality industry and about 80 chefs and
pastry chef mixologies participated.
And the grand prize was for me to take the three winners, you
know, closer to the source of vanilla, so to Madagascar.
So I took Chef Elizabeth Faulkner with me.
I took Michael, Michael Guilota from from New Orleans and then
Shannon T Bay that at the time just left, I think Death and
Company. She was the director of Beverage
and Death and Company in New. York Good, good group.
So good group. Yeah, yeah, I know Elizabeth
through, you know, I mean through James Beard and what not
for sure. Yeah.
She's an amazing chef. She it's good company to have.
And I knew them because I had them on the podcast already, you
know, and Flavours Unknown, I had at least two of them.
I had Elizabeth Faulkner and and Michael Goetta, so that that was
really like the, the objective of the trip was to discover
vanilla. And when I went there, I had
absolutely no idea that I will write my second book, you know,
on Madagascar. I I wanted to find an idea, you
know, to write the second book after Conversations Behind the
Kitchen Door that I published in 2022.
Which is a great book, by the way, for people that don't know
Conversations Behind the Kitchen Door.
By the way, the first quote is mine, right?
Yes. Yeah.
The very first quote. I don't remember what it is.
I know, I know the first. I know that you put on there.
I know one of mine. But there's a lot of great chefs
featured in there. Who are some of the chefs in the
book. I know I'm in. 50 of them. 50
chefs like Chris Cosantino. Yeah, Chris Cosantino is only
There is a bet. Faulkner is on it.
You know you are on it. There is Chef Tim Muddingworth
from from LA There is Fiori Tedesco.
Fiori Tedesco from Austin. Maybe Phillip Spear also.
Yeah, A. Lot of really great chefs.
So that book, which I want to get into, but you know, in a
second, but for people that don't know you have, I mean,
most people should know you have this great podcast Flavors
unknown. It's a, it's a, it's a where you
get to speak to a lot of chefs. And that first book was a
companion to the podcast. Yeah, it was, it was, Yeah,
exactly. It was inspired like the writing
the book was based on the rich content that I had from the
podcast and and as well my experience of experiences around
the country of, you know, doing a lot of tastings, you know,
with with, you know, at restaurants.
So so writing that first book, you thought, well, I should do
a. Second, yeah, I, you know, I
really like the process of writing a book and I'm sure
we're going to talk about it. But the, the idea from you was
like, OK, you know, if I find a second idea and then, you know,
I'll, I'll, I'll do it. And so I arrive on on the
island, we did the whole discovery of, of vanilla.
And then I was exposed to a lot of other ingredients that I
realized that chefs around the world are using their kitchen
and people have no idea it's coming from Madagascar.
And so for instance, there is a wild black pepper, which is
endemic from the island. Amazing profile with kind of
like citrusy, you know, notes. There is obviously pink
peppercorn because I learned that Madagascar is the second
producer of pink peppercorn after Brazil.
And then there is, you know, honey, a lot of different honey
because 90% of the flora and the fauna in Madagascar is only
found there. So there's a rich biodiversity.
So there's a lot of different, you know, trees and blossoms and
so on. So you have honey from
mangroves, you have honey from lychee, you have so primary
forest and so cocoa and cocoa, yeah.
So even if they are very like small producer, they produce
only .1% of the total production of cocoa.
Their profile because of the species, you know, where there's
like different species, three major species of cocoa,
Forestero is 1 and Creolo is the most refined and they are trying
to focus on producing that profile.
So very interesting notes of red fruits and and citrus in their
in their cocoa and then caviar, which was like really big
discovery. Yeah, I know you do.
So, so that was like, really, when I saw all of this, I'm
like, okay, every time I hear about Madagascar on the news,
it's about negative things. Well, and I said I want the
cartoon this. All the cartoon.
Yes, yeah. What you talk about in your
book, you said everyone only thinks about the.
First time I talked to people when I said, by the way, I'm
going to write a book about Madagascar.
You mean the movie? I'm like, why'd you say what?
What do you mean? I said no, it's an island, it's
a country and say, really? Yeah, most people had no idea,
right? No idea.
Yeah, no idea. It's funny because when I think
of Madagascar, besides the movie, I think about the, you
know, vanilla. You know, Madagascar vanilla,
which is like most likely the industry standard.
It is the industry standard for most chefs.
One of the questions I would have for you having spent so
much time in Madagascar, When I think of vanilla, I think of
sweet applications. Are there savory applications
there that? I like your question.
I'm smiling because you, you don't know what I want to say,
that's why. Go ahead.
I'm curious what were the? There's no application
whatsoever. What?
No, that exactly. That's what Elizabeth Faulkner
and Michael Gilota and and Shannon T Bay and myself, you
know, we're very shocked about it because when we landed,
Elizabeth was expecting that in fact, we will smell everything
vanilla. They will be spa with smell of
vanilla. They, you know, or like you walk
the street in Paris, you have like the smell of the
boulangerie and the croissant. So she was expecting all of
this. There's none of that.
And so then we traveled to the little triangle.
It's called the triangle at the gold triangle of, of Vanilla
northeast part of the island. We met with the farmers.
We we have conversation with them and Elizabeth asked So what
do you do with vanilla? And he looked at us if we had
like 3 heads and he said selling nothing exactly.
It's money. He said it's money.
So 99% of the production is exported.
And they absolutely do not use it.
It's not part of their culture, you know, and it's not.
Part of their culture. Not at all, no, because it is a
lot of those in, let's say product has been brought to the
island during the time of, you know, being a colony.
And, you know, unfortunately a lot of people have been used for
their, you know, the fact it was a cheap workforce and yeah, so
everything is sported. So you, you start seeing some of
the new chefs and the new culinary faces of, in the
capital that are integrating those great ingredients, you
know, in their cooking. So you start seeing, you know,
vanilla in sauces or, you know, or in ragu or, you know, that
type of things. And of course in desserts.
So, and as well the pink peppercorn and you know, and and
the the white black pepper that you see.
I was not expecting that. I was expecting that.
That's why I was smiling. So I.
Was thinking about this while I was when we were getting ready
to do the podcast. I was thinking like what could I
put with vanilla is like in my mind.
I don't know why my mind immediately went to risotto.
It's like a savory application with vanilla.
I think in risotto would be nice.
I have a friend of mine who he's studied as a chef and now he
works in the flavor industry and he, you know, he likes to cook.
And every time I come to his home, he is, you know, he has
always like new recipes and so on.
And he is, he puts always, he puts always like vanilla, you
know, in, in cunary preparations or so.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's not that uncommon,
I think, but it isn't. It isn't very common.
Kitchens are brutal right now. Everyone knows it, fewer people
on the line, margins tighter than ever, and somehow the
expectations keep going up. There's just no room to miss
anymore. I was talking to a chef recently
who said the biggest stress wasn't the volume, it was the
mental load. Babysitting, food, timing,
everything perfectly, trying to be everywhere at once.
And that's where equipment matters more than people want to
admit. Rationals.
Technology comes up a lot in those conversations.
The Icon B Pro, the Ivario Pro overnight roast that don't need
to be checked, custom programs for all your recipes,
Consistency without hovering completely automated cleaning,
monitoring everything from your phone, The list goes on.
And what really buys you the headspace?
Less standing over pans and more time to leave the kitchen
instead of constantly putting out tiny fires.
When you're down to cook, When the prep list is rough, when the
production ramps up. Think rational.
Let's talk about your process for writing, if you don't mind.
As I was flipping through the book and I'm reading a couple of
pages, I, there's something that I picked up not just in this
book, but also in the previous one, but more because I've read
this more recently. And something that I picked up
is that when you write, it's very good.
It's very good. And, and because I write also,
if you read anything that I write, it sounds like me.
It sounds like how I talk. Also, this is very interesting
because I'm reading this is like.
It's almost like you go into a different character.
Yeah, and, and, and obviously when I write and especially
that, you know, English is not my mother language.
So I, you know, I, I have to, I spend more time, you know, I, I
focus, you know, I, I try to understand, you know, how I want
to bring, you know, certain emotions or, and, and, and
there's, there is like a mix of different source of information
when I write because I, I, I use usually, I would say basically,
probably especially for those non fiction book, I, I maybe
like 3 different things. The first one is that there's a
lot of conversation that I had with the farmers, with the
entrepreneurs, with the beekeepers and so on.
So I went to the island with my recorders and two mics, and I
conducted interviews with those individuals.
So I have that as a big part of the content.
Then I have, you know, my phone when I take a lot of pictures,
all those pictures, in fact, I've been that you see in the
book. I've been taken with my iPhone.
Yeah. And but that that's important
for me because when I write, I usually put some mood board.
So let's say I'm going to stop writing like the chapter on
rice. So I'm going to have like one
page when I have like all the pictures like related to rice,
the rice fields, you know, and the people that are working
feels and you know, and so on. Or some of the dishes that I
had. And then the other one is that I
have the, the classic, the old fashioned way where I have my
notebook and in fact in my pencil.
And this is where I capture my, you know, what I feel like the
emotion aspect. You know, when I, I, maybe I am
on the, the lake, you know, where you have all the sturgeons
and I, I go on the boat and it's 5:00 in the morning, it's before
sunrise. And you have all the sound of
the nature. You have that feeling, you know,
of the sun rising on that lake. And you discovered like all the
structure of the Nets, you know, with the, with the sturgeons,
all of that. It's, you know, I have to write.
I have to write the way how I feel, you know, because it's
very difficult if you, you know, when you go back home and then
you are be on your desk and then you try to, you know, kind of
relive, you know, those moments. If you don't have it, like from
the moment you expense them and you know, it's very difficult
to, to be really truthful to, you know, the way you felt.
So I, I have those three things and that's how I, you know, I, I
write. So a lot of chefs want to write
their first cookbook. A lot of people want to write
their first cookbook. And I think that's it's
aspirational for a lot of chefs. I feel like having your own
cookbook cements your your legacy to a certain extent.
One of the things that I know, and I've spoken to a lot of
chefs on the podcast who have cookbooks and it seems to be
about 5050, if not, it's leaning a little bit more towards self
or independent publishing versus going the traditional publishing
route. This is.
Traditional. Traditional publishing both
books. Yeah, both books.
So what is what is the process from going from idea to to, you
know, for the for the audience that's listening.
We wanted to coach them through, hey, you want to write your
first cookbook? Here's some of the steps to get
a book deal. What does that look like?
So first of all, you need three years of your life, you know,
especially for cookbooks, because you know, if you have,
you have the content, you have the recipes that needs to be
tested, you know, by usually a third party, all the recipe has
to be written, you know, the same way.
And then you have, you know, as well the, all the, the pictures,
you know, for that are very important new cookbooks.
So I, I'm not like an experts in the cookbooks.
But when I tell you if, if you want to go the routes of, you
know, the traditional publishing, you cannot unless
you have someone very famous. And then you are going to have
like a publisher contacting you and say, Hey, Andre, you know,
we love what you do and so on. And we would love to have, you
know, you writing cookbooks. So that's one thing.
But otherwise you cannot contact like a publisher directly
because they received so many proposals that in fact the you
have to go through an agent. So that's the the way to go.
And step one is find. So step one, yeah, step one is
to find a book agent and and then.
They're happy for you at that point.
First you have to pitch a lot of book agents.
So I have one based in the Savannah for me, and I think
that's for the that's the same one that I have for the both
books. And I think I pitched 14 agent
because of course I'm you know, I'm no one, nobody.
I don't have a show on TV so. You you have a very successful
Chef podcast. Yeah, but it's, you know, it's
it's not enough. So so the idea is that so I
pitched 14 two where interested in their concept.
One wanted to represent me the way it was.
The second one in fact challenged me, which I and I
went with her because I said the first time I I write a book and,
you know, I probably need to improve, you know, in the in the
process and so on and I'm going to learn something.
So so yeah. So then after that, that agent,
when the agent decides to, you know, we present to you.
So first she or he is going to help you make the book better.
And then because it's nonfiction, usually what they do
is that you have to build with them like a book proposal where
you need to have a few chapters already put together.
And then it's all about, you know, what's the concept?
You know, what is the target audience?
Obviously for Coolbook it's you know, with foodies and and chefs
and then when that is done and finalized with the agent, they
will help you finalize it. Then they take it and pitch it
to, you know, several mini publishers.
Did you use the same publisher for both?
Books No. Different publisher. 2 different
publishers. Quick question because you have
recipes in here too. Even though it's not a cookbook,
there are recipes in here. It's about 20.
And for those, did you have to have a recipe tester that you
had to send? Everything to no, no, I didn't,
I didn't do that. What I did yeah, is in fact,
first I'm another chef. So I, I reach out to so the chef
that we're with me. So there's it is there's
Elizabeth Faulkner recipe on vanilla, Michael Gilota, Shannon
T base cocktail. And then I, I ask chefs from
Madagascar to give me your recipes and as well chef from
France, because, you know, there's still that connection
that exists between Madagascar and France.
So there's a lot of French chefs that are using the ingredients
from the island. Wow.
What, where is what is the, the history, the historical
connection between Madagascar and France?
And, and now that you said that and I, I don't know why I never
put two and two together, but yeah, you're talking about the
ingredients. And these ingredients are very
prevalent in in French cooking. So it it was, it was a French
colony until 1960, the way they became independent.
So it was during, I don't know if you know anything about the
French history, but it's general the goal who is was, you know,
the president at the time. There was a lot of different
colonies, you know, in connected to France and a lot of them
wanted to become independent. So in 1960s they said OK, you
are, you're independent and France left.
How long did it take you to write this?
22 months. How much time?
Like the first. One What was the shortest amount
of time and what was the longest amount of time you spent on it
in a day? Oh, so that's, that's a very
good question. In fact, because everyone has a
process. I, I read a lot of advice from a
lot of coaches and all the authors that said you have to
write everyday. I cannot.
So I'm, I'm in charge of marketing for, for a global
company manufacturing, you know, food ingredients.
And for me, it's very difficult at the end of the day to switch
to creative writing after my whole day, you know, work or
travelling and so on. So I have learned from the first
book that's the best process for me is what I called 3.
It's a 3 six process, which is I take 3 days like a usually a
long weekend and then I will write 6 hours.
You know, I, I'm an early bird. So I will start at 5:00 AM and
then around 11, I will finish writing.
I will explore because I'm a foodie.
So I will explore wherever I am. I rent usually in Airbnb and
then I go to a brewery, to a restaurant, to a coffee shop and
so on. I'll do a little bit of hiking,
go back to the, to the Airbnb and I, I revise, you know,
whatever I've written. And I do that three days, you
know, in a row and you know, on a regular basis.
And that's the best way. That's why it took me 22 months
to write the manuscript. And we have very different
processes. I'm, I, I have to create a
little bit of pressure for myself.
I, I think it's all the years of being a chef.
I actually perform better when there's a, and I hate to say
that I do perform better when there's stress.
So I sometimes have to introduce fake stress.
So I will announce things even though I haven't gotten to, to
work on it. I'll tell people that like
they'll say, how soon do you need?
I was like, they give me a date and I'll I'll, I'll, I'll hit
the deadline knowing full well that I haven't even sure.
And, and I think I was talking to her yesterday when I was
telling you for the next one. I'm writing a book right now and
I've only written 1 chapter. So for people that don't know
and. When is the deadline?
It's a it's a very, very soon, right?
I've only written 1 chapter of the 10 and I have a little bit
over a week to have it done. Oh, good luck.
Yeah, but that's what you don't know about me is is I will
figure it out because I'm the type of person that I'll wait
till the last minute. Oh boy.
And then I will drink a lot of caffeine and then I will get it
done. And then with no sleep.
With no sleep, right, I just, I just procrastinate.
But that's my writing process. But I also, I probably said this
before on the podcast, I, I talk, so I turn on the recorder
and then I talk and then the words show up on the computer.
So that's a little bit easier and then it's easier for me to.
And for me, it's like I typed everything and I type whatever.
It doesn't matter the quality or whatever.
And I've learned with the first book that in fact, you know why
that's the for me, like the, the white page, you know, the crisis
of the white, all the tension of the white page and so on.
It's like a cover myth. Because what I do is I, I really
structure, you know, I know the structure of the book.
I know the chapter. I know, you know, the major,
let's say ideas in the chapter and then whatever, it's like,
you know, 5:00 in the morning and I start writing.
I'm going to start whoever. So we could, I can start in like
the middle of the chapter #5 for instance.
And then the next day I will do the introduction or, you know,
and I, I will build like my puzzle, you know, like this.
Yeah, it's it's so funny writing process is so different for for
everybody. And when we were talking about
earlier, how when I read yours, I say, wow, this tone is very
different from the conversations that we have in real life.
Yeah, right. We're mine.
You can see why I sound because I'm.
I'm talking. Sure, right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a lot of my books sound like
I'm having a conversation because I am.
I'm having a conversation with the computer.
That's reported it and I, I love maybe it comes as well from we
have a very different, you know, obviously background and
education and so on. So coming from France, there's a
lot of, you know, French classes with classic literature and so
on. So I, I love like setting a
stage, you know, and talking about like the surrounding the
environments. I think it's important as well
for a book like this where I know that most of the people who
are going to read it, we never had the chance to come to go do
the island and the landscapes are so diverse and and wonderful
is that I want to make sure that the people come with me on the
island while writing the book. So they need to experience, you
know those. I, I forget that you're from
France because you're, you have a very thick New Jersey accent.
No, go on. I forget that I have a question
of you. Do you want me to say coffee?
I can talk about the Turnpike, you know, and.
All of that. Let me ask you a question.
Sopranos, my favorite show. Yeah, I know.
Honestly, The Sopranos is my favorite show of all time.
I remember some of our conversations all time.
That's that's my favorite show. You know how to cook.
That's not the problem. The problem is getting your team
to do what you want when you want it.
That's leadership. My book, Culinary Leadership
Fundamentals, breaks down exactly how to run a kitchen
without losing your mind. Stop yelling.
Start leading. Get the book at Chefs psa.com.
So what was your first experience and what brought you
to the United States for your first experience?
Yeah. In fact, it's, it's funny story.
It's, I think it was back in 1998 and I did an internship in
Wisconsin, Waukesha between Milwaukee and and Madison.
That was a fantastic experience. But you know, the, the story
that took place that was that really amazing is that I was
supposed at the end of my studies to be drafted for
military service in France because it was still mandatory
at that time. It's not the case anymore.
Even I think now the President Macron wants to bring it back.
And so I, I pushed that military service at the end of my studies
that you can, you know, you could do that.
And So what happened is that you, you have to do the health
check and everything, you know, before getting drafted.
So I had this opportunity at the same time to come to United
States and the person who was in charge and giving me that
opportunity said, you know, this is now that you have the
opportunity because it's in the budget, you know, for that
company to make it happen next year.
It would probably not going to be the case.
And I'm like, yeah, but I'm probably going to have to go to
military service. I said OK, man, you know, good
luck. So I went to the health check
and I still remember there's a lot of element in that story.
You asked for it, but it's a long 1.
So I, I drove to my brother and sister-in-law for a weekend and
since important story and I, my sister-in-law decided to to say,
OK, take the car to get to, you know the like the the place
where you know where they do the hell check.
It's easy. It's very close by and so I went
there. There's a long line.
We are all hoping that we will not get drafted.
I had my folder. I had some issue with my eyes.
So I said maybe it's, you know, strong enough for for me to
avoid it. And then there's, I still
remember there was a huge staircase of this old house.
And there's one guy on top of the staircase is an official.
He is, you know, with his uniform.
And he is like, really literally like screaming down the
staircase. There's all the kids, you know,
me and all the others. Maybe we have 200.
And he said, is anyone, you know, have a car here?
Does anyone have a car? This is very important.
And I'm not I'm not going to say anything.
I'm not going to stand up. And, you know, and then he asked
again, he said this is really important.
And like, OK, I raised my hand and said I have a car.
So I'm the only one among all those 200 kids and said, OK, see
me at the end. So I go through the whole steps
of, you know, getting the the health check, you know, the
X-ray for the lungs, you know, and blah, blah, blah.
And I arrive at the eyes exam and the doctor that is there
said, hey, man, I'm sorry, but it's not enough.
You know what you have, you will have to get your military
service. And I'm not sure because that's
my opportunity to go to the US that I can see already, you
know, going away. And then that guy that, you
know, asked about the car entered the room and he said,
OK, you know what's going on? What's the situation with this
guy? So the other one explained.
He said, OK, come with me. So I exit that room.
Now we are in the hallway. There's doors, you know, on both
side. And it says doctor, doctor, you
know, I just, you know, on each door.
So I'm like, oh shit, that's the guy who is going to probably
decide of my fate. So sitting in this in his office
and say, OK, explain to me what's going on.
And you know, I had like few seconds like to think about it.
And I'm like, OK, he's the doctor.
He has been, you know, he has done, you know, college and, you
know, medical studies and so on. So maybe you will understand.
So I decided to tell the truth and I said, OK, I have an
opportunity. I can go to the US for a year.
It's going to change competing my life, my entire career.
This is now or never. So if I do not do the military
service, then I can go to the US.
And I'm not joking. The the doctor look at me and he
said, OK, I have to catch a train to see my fiance, you
know, in Grenald and he was catching a train when in fact in
the town where my brother lives. And he said my train is, I of
course don't remember the time, but it's a, you know, it is in
whatever are you going to be able to drive me and I can catch
my train. I'm like, I can promise you
you're going to catch your train.
And the guy said OK, what a good.
Story. That's a good story.
It's a long 1 though. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But that's how you then it and that guy, unfortunately, you
know the why. The big, the maybe the biggest
drug rights that I have is that I never ask his name and I never
have the chance to say thank you.
He's listening. Yeah, he'll, he'll know.
Of course he's listening to shit.
He's saying of course, why not? Why He's he's French.
I wanna change my life. I wanna.
Ask you about about your podcast.
Yes. So flavors are known for people
that don't know. And by the way, I think I've
been a guest four times. Oh yeah, yeah, I think so.
Yeah, I think 3 or 4I. Remember, yeah, I mean, we did
the Group 1. Yeah, you did the leadership one
the. Leadership one.
Well, anyway. People, I think there was a,
there was a, there was A and you and and you were first on your
own as a. Guest yeah, yeah.
So anyway. I seem to remember people should
listen to meeting you for the first time.
Flavors and I was I was very. Impressed.
I'll tell you it's it's interesting because I've gone
back and listened to it. Yeah.
And I was still a chef. And so if you listen to that
versus now you say, who's that guy?
He sounds like an asshole. Why no, no, just we had a
fantastic. Conversation it was, but I was
just to. Remember the first conversation?
You and I and you were so nice. Yeah, I, I still remember.
No, you reached out to me because I think we had, I had
like a few, I had like maybe episodes on the podcast of 10.
And then suddenly on my Instagram, your name pop up and
you said, oh, by the way, I love your podcast.
And I said, oh, I'm going to come to Austin.
So I said, hey, come and see me. And we had a fantastic
conversation. Yeah, one of the things that.
Do you know that he was eight years ago?
Wow. Yeah, well, when I listen to
that podcast now, if I go back and listen to that, I'm still a
chef. And so the way that I speak, the
intensity that I have is much different than the way I speak
now. Because when I listen to it, I'm
like, wow, who's that person? It's just, it's a it's a
different version of me because I was still in it.
And it's interesting for me to listen to old episodes like
that. But anyway, so people should go
back and listen to flavors alone, listen to my episodes on
there. But one of the things that I
think you have a very unique perspective because you are not
a chef, but you talk to like, like in my life, I talk to chefs
all day, some of the best. So do you.
And you've been able to develop a very unique perspective of
what chefs, what makes chefs tick.
And one of the interesting things about your podcast is
it's very philosophy driven. It is inspiration driven, it's
technique driven. And so you get into the minutiae
of the cooking and the flavors and the creative process and all
those things when you think about that, because you've had
the opportunity to speak to so many chefs.
Mm hmm yeah I have 205 or 6 episodes now.
Wow, cuz I do every other week. Yeah.
So, so 205 episodes and let's assume that's over 150 chefs
because I'm sure you've had a couple of on like myself.
Multiple times, yeah, yeah. What is the one thing that you
notice that great chefs have in common?
Is there something that you picked up that say, hey, I
noticed that a lot of the greats seem to do this Or what are what
are some of the commonalities that you see across the board?
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
So. And I think that's the first
point you had the one mentioning to me, it was the first time we
met and that was something that came back in everything you are
saying, it was about discipline. So I think that's what I've seen
from all the great chefs that I talk to.
It's all about owning and developing your craft and having
the discipline, you know, of doing it.
And I think this is very important, especially since the
after COVID time where in fact, I've heard a lot of the chefs
finding that it was sometime challenging with a newer
generation where they felt that, you know, that focus off owning
your or developing your skills and your craft was not as maybe
strong as what it used to be. I'm not saying I don't want to
generalize because of course, of course there's going to be
plenty of individuals that is still have like that's passion,
you know for it, but that was so that was one big element.
And and when they when you're when you're referencing that,
are the chefs saying that there's a distinct before and
after COVID and they use COVID as like the, the, the specific
point in time reference point? Yeah, they have seen a lot of,
so they have seen a lot of people that left that industry,
you know at that time and never came back to it.
But as well, I think this is a mixed between the after COVID
and as well like the Gen. Z generation, you know as we
call them or like the younger millennials or Gen.
Z. So where the feels that it's in
inheritance of the the culture of the cooking shows and the
competition shows, where in fact there is a whole generation of
individuals that look at the shows on TV and you know, the
stardom, you know, from chefs and said, oh, OK, that's what I
want to be and the ideas. And when they and, and you can
do that, I think, you know, you could be in chef on TV.
And but then a lot of them are applying this into the
day-to-day life of a chef at the restaurant.
And it's really different in the fact that they have to go
through the different stations and learn and craft and, you
know, and they're maybe not getting to like the level all as
fast as they would like to and. What do you, what do you notice
in, in terms of because you have your, your finger on the pulse,
not just when with speaking with chefs, but also you travel a lot
and you eat at a lot of their restaurants as well.
You travel and dine way more than I do You, you, you truly
do. And I'm not.
I'm not. Sure.
I, I, I was, you know, for the first book, when I wrote the
first book, I was trying to have a number and so on.
And, and I think I do between 60 to 80 tasting a year.
Wow. So yeah.
What do you what do you notice? Like if you had to, if you had
to guess, what do you notice that seems to be on the horizon
with with, with trend or with cuisine that seems to be really
emerging and you think it's going to probably take hold here
strongly across the country soon.
Is there anything that you see? I don't, I don't know if I, you
know, in fact, that's something interesting for me because
that's a question that usually I ask a lot of the chefs,
especially when I have the panel like, you know, the one you and
I did with some other chefs in Austin.
And I do about 5 or 6 panel a year, panels a year.
And I always talk about trends and it's we as people that works
in the industry, the food and the beverage industry.
We are looking at you guys at Chefs Mixologist that are in
fact for us creating those trends because those elements
are going to be amplified by the media and then maybe we'll end
up in food service or in in retail later.
But when I talked to the chef and I asked them the question,
they hate that questions. They for them, they are not
really into trends, but what they are doing is.
That they're not, but they are. I can tell you that the the
chefs are not, but they are. They're acting.
They're they're saying they're not, but they're acting like
they are. I I think that again, back to
your question about what do you find like the common points of
the, the chefs that are really great chefs, you know, that you
talk to. And I think those ones, they are
more cooking from their roots and their culture and then yes,
it might become a trend after, but they are not going into.
I see what you. Say that approach having trend
in mind, but you have other I see as well other chefs that
says, oh, you know, we follow this one and this one and this
one on social media because now it's a source of, you know, of
inspiration and so on. So they are looking at you know
trends and I'm sure you know some of those trends are going
to influence them. But I, I see those two
different. I would say path, you know, when
I, I talk to the chefs around the country and I like the idea
of, you know, having chefs that are really expressing their
background, their roots, you know, through their, through
their cooking. That could be, I don't like the
word authentic because it's, you know, it's authentic to whatever
they have experience to someone. But, but the idea is that they
have they, they, they, if they are like the son of an
immigrant, for instance, or second generation and so on,
then there's going to be some roots, but as well that are
going to be mixed and connected with their own experience of
like growing up, you know, here in, you know, in the US.
So I think that's that's the element that I'm really
interested in. And you have an interesting job
and I don't want to get into what your day job is, but but
but you have a very interesting job where you are immersed in
flavors still, not just flavors unknown with the podcast and not
just with Taste of Madagascar, but also in your day job,
you're, you're heavily involved with with flavors and creating,
creating new flavors. From your own perspective, where
do you see some new flavors emerging that maybe we're not
thinking about that aren't so common?
I mean, maybe obviously some chefs out there thinking about
them, but but you do have your finger on the pulse because
you're dining out, you're eating, and you're also in the
creative world of it. What do you see emerging right
now? So if we are talking about
cunery, because trans may vary and are different from you know
if we are talking beverage, if we are talking cunery, I mean
the big things and it's been for a while, but the big things are
global influences. That's what you know that are
driving really like what you know new things that you see you
know on the market. So you are what I think that's
people that's realize now that you cannot talk about Indian
cuisine or you cannot talk about Mexican cuisine or you cannot
talk about French cuisine and so on is that this is each country
are very complex. There's like so many variation
linked to the geography and the regions you know within.
So now what I see is, in fact, especially the younger
generation. So the Gen.
Z and the younger millennials are really interesting in the
authentic storytelling and the idea of things that are coming
from the different regions. So we are not talking about
Mexican cuisine, but we are talking about Oaxaca, we are
talking about Puebla, we are talking.
So that's what really we see at the moment.
Or Western African cuisine that are coming or you know.
And you, by the way, for people that don't know, you pointed
this out to me way before this conversation.
I mean, I'm thinking back maybe two years ago where we were
having a similar conversation, not on a podcast, just in person
at dinner, probably where we were talking about, I think it
was it masala Mais. They were saying, hey, look at
me, Masala. Mais yeah, you're looking.
The city, yeah, You look at these restaurants, you were you
were pointing me in that direction to say hey.
And. I you should see what they're
doing. And I can, I can, I can tell you
that still Mexico City for me, it's probably the Cunari
destination in the Americas. You know, at the moment that I
will, you know, I, I in fact, I'm going to take a group of 40
of our customers, you know, end of April, you know, there
because this is for me where we have the best example of global
influences on traditional ingredients.
So, you know, on the, the corn, you know, on the Chile, on the
mezcal, on the, you know, that really ingredients coming from,
from Mexico. And do you have so many chefs
that are bringing, you know, their outside viewpoints, you
know, coming from, you know, a different countries being one
because he comes originally from India through Africa and married
Mexican. So.
So he has all the three influences of, you know, the way
he cooks. The idea of using Mexican and
Indian or other Eastern western flavors together is real.
My friend Rishi has a really phenomenal restaurant in Chicago
where he he he's, he's trained through Rick Bayless and that
system of making really exceptional Mexican food, but
he's now putting his personality on it.
Fingerprints on it. Yeah, his fingerprints on it.
So you're starting to see that a lot more.
And it's delicious because you're unlocking.
I mean, all food. Is that right?
It's just, it's just taking time.
It's just taking time now as the world has become more flat, you
could see things you know in real time develop.
Don't say the world is flat, please.
You know what I mean? I know.
It was so funny. I mean that that we're able to
know what's going on on the other side of the world at at
any moment. Yeah, Shit, we're good.
Here we go. There's a big there's a big ice
wall in Antarctica too, right. So here we go.
We're going to turn into that podcast before you know it.
But but all joking aside is you you see the ability to now to to
get trained in certain cuisines and get really familiar with it.
But then when the time comes for you to stand on your own 2 feet,
then you can start incorporating all these all.
These I think it's all about storytelling and and if the
especially for the new generation, if the the I
understand and the feel that authenticity coming from that
storytelling from the chef, I think that's then that's, you
know, sometimes. The story tastes like shit.
OK, OK, it's. Like, hey, that's a.
Great story. It tastes terrible, but good
story. That's correct.
From all the chefs that you've spoken to, you've spoken to a
lot. Is there any right now that you
feel maybe because you've spoken to them or you've also spoken to
them and try their food that aren't household names yet, but
you feel like, OK, this is these are some to watch?
So I I really I mean, because I know them for a long time and I
just came from DC and my friend Matt Conroy and his wife,
Isabelle Kos are for me a fantastic in fact couple
cooking. She's a best three chef.
She has done, she was at cost me before in New York.
He was, I met him when he was at Virginia after he went to
Oxomoco in Brooklyn. Now both of them moved to
Washington, DC and they have 3 restaurants now.
They have Lutest, they have Pasquale, which is Mexican and
then they have a Maison which is kind of a wine bar, but you know
with, with food as well. I think that's they they, they
do a fantastic job. The the foodies is amazing.
Yeah. So I, I, I, I really love those.
In fact, there's another couple that I discovered on in Hawaii.
I have to take you to Hawaii once you have to come on.
Absolutely. When I was a.
Kid, I know, I remember that, but you have to go back now.
So there is a. Where'd you go to Hawaii?
Which island? I went to, you know, one several
times. So I went to all the islands.
My favorite, it's Kauai, but you know, because I love hiking and
so on, but it's not a lot of restaurant there.
If you really want to taste like restaurant, it's either
Honolulu, you know, on Oahu or, you know, Maui.
But the there's a couple and I have to remember their names,
but the restaurants MW because that's their that's their
initials. And I know I'm not going to
remember their names now. It's UL car.
Yeah, that's their last name. And and the and again, they do a
fantastic food. Michelle Michelle, she's the
pastry chef and and he's the chef and they both of them are
fantastic way of, you know, like putting the lights on like local
ingredients and, and creating like amazing dishes and amazing
dessert. So that's another place that so
MW restaurant in Honolulu if you're going to Hawaii.
What, what? What is the best meal that
you've had in the last year or so in your travels?
I guess I'm good. You're going to get in trouble.
That's a tough. One, it's a tough one, but is
there one that really stands out?
Now it's very difficult for me to answer.
Do you prefer tasting menus or Ala carte?
Do you want to go into the restaurant and yeah, you know I
be in control, or do you want the chef to be in control?
Oh, I, I. If the chef wants to be in
control, then I I I. I not, not because it's you, but
because that's the style of restaurant, meaning the chef's
in control, meaning this is all you're getting.
That's it. Or do you prefer like?
No, this is what I want. So I mean, if I have, if I have
the possibility where the chef is, you know, putting together
his selection and so on and do that.
But otherwise, you know, I like to look at the menu because I, I
always want to pick the things that, you know, intrigue me
because there's something that I, I, I'm not the kind of person
that go back and, and reorder the same thing in it happens.
But I, I'm going always to look at, oh, that ingredients I do
not know or Oh my gosh, he is associating the, or she's
associating this and this, I never seen this.
I I have to try this or there's like, yeah, there's special
sauce, you know, that I'm intrigued.
But if there is scallops or duck or foie gras, that would be my
choice, yeah. Do do you prefer your foie gras
seared or Torchol? Both, but it depends on the
occasions and and by the way, talking about this and you asked
me one of my great, great experience.
It was not in the US, it was in Mexico City.
It was in January this year. It is at a food truck.
A chef decided, well known chef decided not to do a brick and
mortar, but starts with a, you know, a food truck.
And he has on the secret menu Taco with guava mole with the
sea at Quagga on top. And I can tell you that I've
been there twice during my week. That sounds amazing.
It was amazing. Guava mole Guava's such an also
underrated fragrant. It is a trendy 1.
So you ask me, what's trending? Yeah, Guava is.
I didn't know Guava was trending.
Yeah, Guava is trending and then the other one which is trending.
I've seen it in my. Shampoo.
You know, pendant. Guava's in my shampoo, I think
with coconuts. That's so funny, but the.
Yeah, so Panden actually I was talking about on the on the most
recent episode that actually came out today, we're talking
about Panden. I I love Panden.
Also very, very underrated. I mean, it's it, it is coming.
It's, it's becoming, it's not yet mainstream, but it's, it's,
it's really. It's next.
It's about to have its moment, Absolutely.
So going back to the amount of chefs that you've spoken to, I'm
just curious without naming any names, but maybe finding ideas
or or seeing patterns. I'm sure a lot of the chefs
because when did you start the podcast?
2018 on September. So since 2018, you've you've had
a lot of time to speak with chefs in process and and not
just the on air conversations, the off.
Air and I'm getting old, you know, I forgot the things.
But do you? I'm sure because of that timing,
you've seen a lot the rise and fall of some some chefs, you
know, some chefs have probably closed restaurants and moved on.
Or maybe they were. Especially because you have
pandemic. Pandemic, right?
Yeah, sure, maybe. Maybe a chef was very hot for a
moment and maybe they're not as hot anymore.
And so this is maybe a difficult question to ask, but I would
ask, is there something that you notice when you say, oh, chef,
you might want to, you might be headed for do you notice?
Something now I, I don't think, I, I don't think I have the
expertise that you have, you know, because you've been
through, you know, all the different scenarios because, you
know, we, you shared a lot of, you know, part of your life's a
professional life. So I don't have, I'm not a chef.
So I'm, I'm always looking at it from an outside view of someone
who is passionate about, you know, food and passionate about
and intrigued and as well very humble and appreciate like the
ton of work that exists, you know, in that profession that
usually people don't really realize.
So I'm, I'm looking at it that, so I it's very difficult for me
to put like any judgement call because I don't think I have the
expertise. You're you're walking the
razor's edge on a lot of these questions.
No, not a lot. OK, so I'm going to ask you a
very tough one. Here's a very tough one.
What is the best Food City in in the United States right now?
Best Food City? And don't say, don't say New
Jersey. No, because that's where you
live. No, I wouldn't.
No, I I think I am. I am in it.
I think like every time a lot of people ask me questions.
So I always start with Austin. Really.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Austin.
You're not just saying that because we're here, no.
No, no, no, no, no. I always say Austin first, then
I'm going to say probably Portland and Seattle.
It's pretty good. Good.
I would say Nashville. Now maybe I will not have
mentioned Nashville 20 years ago, but now I think fantastic.
Obviously LA because there's a lot of, you know, LA, New York
because you, you know, there's so, so many new, you know,
restaurants opening and closing, of course, but and another one
that I really liked spending time like more.
It's Miami. I think there's some good stuff
in Miami. I, I think if, if I was to make
a prediction, I think the two cities that will maybe 3, but
the 2 for sure that I think will emerge.
But it has more to do with, I would maybe say the, the
economics, but also the social influence, because social
influence also plays a big part of creating the food scene.
If you have influencers and you know, it's gonna, it's gonna
affect the amount of attention that goes there.
And then of course the dining community that goes on the, I, I
think if I would say 2 cities, it's Austin and Miami right now
that I think are going to really emerge because of the amount of
content creators in those markets.
Miami having a heavy presence of content creation and, and, and
nightlife, you're going to see more of their food just just
because of that reason alone. Same thing with Austin.
You have a lot of podcasts and content creators in Austin, so
you're going to see a lot of Austin food.
The third city, I'd say, is Nashville's.
Yeah, yeah, Nashville, I like, I like Nashville.
So you know, if if someone, you know, comes to the US and and
say, hey, where should I go? I always, you know, I have, I
mean the one I mentioned, but you know, I would say anyhow,
you will go to LA and you're going to go to New York.
So, but if you want to go outside of it, that's you know.
But I but I feel like New York, LA and Chicago are always in the
conversation. I I assume they're always in the
conversation? Too.
You know what? And I am going to make some
enemies here. So sorry guys, but I'm for me,
Chicago is like, oh, no, it's, it's OK.
It's yeah, I mean, there's some great restaurants and so on
there. But but if I have to, let's see
if tomorrow you said, OK, we can transport ourself and then we go
somewhere for for dinner. I, I very rarely.
I'm going to be Chicago. Really.
Yeah. I like Chicago.
I was just there. It was great.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, probably, maybe I, I didn't go to I, I
don't know. Yeah, you need to interview more
Chicago chefs. They're gonna, they're, they're
gonna be calling you. After I know, please call me.
Please call me. I, I love the book though.
Thank you for sending in to me. I, I love the first one as well.
And you know, you wrote a nice little message, of course
message to me. I'm, I'm happy that you write
and people should read this book by the way, cuz as I started
reading, it's like, wow, not only is it, it's a good story,
like I said earlier, like I like how you write.
Is it a good story? But it's very educational.
So as I started turning the pages like, oh, I didn't know
that. I haven't got to the part about
vanilla being nowhere, but I'm assuming that's in the book too.
The venom B. That they don't cook with
vanilla. Over there.
Oh yeah, sure. And and there's another thing as
well that people, I was surprised that people really
don't know that for even the people that know that vanilla
comes from Madagascar, they have no idea that every flower is
hand pollinated one by one. Really.
See, here you go. Yeah.
So you know, Velina comes from Mexico.
There is a little bee that's
pollinates the orchid flower to create the Veneta bean to
produce Veneta beans when French them again, then took you know
some of those vines and then try in different part of the world
in the tropics, you know area. They brought it to the Indian
Ocean to Little de la Reignon, which is close to Madagascar.
And then they realized that in fact, they were planning the
vine. The vine was growing, but there
was no production of vanilla beans ever.
And say what's going on? And then they took the insect
with, but the insect died. So the insect doesn't leave
outside nor survive outside of Mexico.
So all the vanilla that are implemented in other part of the
world have to be hand pollinated.
So every morning during the season, which is in September
and October in Madagascar, women, because smaller finger
will go and you know, in each vine that they have in on their
piece of land, they will hand pollinate.
And I've done that step when I went to Yeah.
So they take like a little usually a thorn, you know, from
another tree and so on. And because the way the orchid
is done is that this only little bee has the possibility to flip
like, you know, one of the, you know, a female or male organ.
I don't remember. But when and what by doing this,
then they, you know, they put in Nate the the, the the flower.
If you don't have it, the the flower is done in a way that it
is physically impossible to have the two, you know, sex of like
the flower to touch. So then you have to lift, you
know, with your finger with the, the help of like a thorn or a
little tool. And then you have to press, you
know, those things together. And you have to have to do that
one by one. And each flower produce.
I need one vanilla bean from my house.
Hey, whatever you got to do. Actually, well, that type of
party. I'm just kidding.
I know, I know, I. Don't wait, but so funny though.
So last question, because you interview chefs, you know your
you know your chef history. In the United States, we have
Mount Rushmore. And if there was a Mount
Rushmore of four the four greatest chefs to ever live, are
you? Kidding me?
Who? Are they?
They. Don't have to be American.
Oh yeah, I mean, I'm going to put one because I'm still
begging him to come on the podcast and he's not coming yet.
He answers me and so on. But it's Sean Brock.
I will have Sean Brock on that rock for sure.
So you got Sean? Brock.
That's that's he's my, my, my. He's your favorite chef?
Yeah. I like the new generation of
chefs, in fact, because I think that they have that mindset of
collaboration very open. But Oh my gosh, that's a tough
question. I don't even know when we I'm
surprised. You don't have any French chefs
in there? Oh yeah, yeah, I was in the
yeah, yeah, yeah. OK.
So no, I was not thinking about
like international. Sorry and you said it and sorry,
I forgot. We have we have Sean Brock.
So Sean Brock for the USDS. I will put yeah, Alan Ducasse
probably. Yeah, Alan Ducasse I love as
well. I will put a pastry chef.
I will put Pierre on me another French there.
And then we need to have we need to have a French from a chef
from that time. But I don't know if I know them
enough because there's so many, you know, fantastic chefs in I
think maybe someone from Peru. I mean, because the Peruvian
cuisine is you. You are asking me, you know what
I like to be trans Peruvian cuisine is 1.
So a chef from Peru that we put OK and I need a fourth one.
That's four. That's four, yeah.
OK, you got 4. You don't have a Peru chef by
name. I mean, I know Gaston.
What's his name? Gaston.
No, keep it, Gaston. Well, I'm not good with names.
As you can. No, it's OK.
I mean, neither am I. But I yeah.
I I think about. That's a tough one.
That's a tough question. I think about the length of time
that I've known you since 2018, I think the year that you
started. Yeah, I know that we've been
friends for a long time. People that want to buy your
book, where can they? Where can they buy it?
So first of all, they can buy it like everywhere they buy books
online, they can find the information as well on I created
like a page called a tasteofmadagascar.com, which is
easy to remember. They can, you know, Amazon,
Amazon, yeah, sure. You know, Amazon, you know, and
you know, I, I love as well all the, the, the private, you know,
like bookstore that I specialized in, in cuisine and
cooking and so on. Like kitchen alternators in in
New York or there's a fantastic new one in Savannah called
Postal tables and tails. There is omnivore in San
Francisco. There is now serving in LA.
All the all of those are. New books in all food.
Yeah, yeah. And and your other book as well,
correct. Yeah.
So I mean, you can find it on online and in fact there's still
people reading it. Conversations behind the kitchen
door. Great book.
A taste of Madagascar, great book.
Podcast Flavors under so known everywhere.com, Everywhere,
everywhere. And by the way, I was thinking,
I've been on five episodes, I think 5.
Yeah, so there's the first. I did two solo.
Ones you have to put you on the Mount Rushmore.
You should. You have two solo ones with me
and then you had the CMO one. When we were supposed to go at
South by Southwest. We got cancelled so cold.
Which is the leadership? The leadership.
One and then the panel. We did the panel with Kevin Fink
and Fiori Tedesco. Yeah, we did.
Another Mexican independence? Day, that's true.
With I forgot Edgar Rico and and Rick Lopez.
Yeah, and someone else I'm probably forgetting.
And then we did another one with Gabriel Crowther and Suzanne
Goin. Oh yeah.
Oh I forgot, I think that's 7. No way.
So yeah, Oh my gosh. Then I don't think anyone could.
No, I don't think you've had a guest.
On you are you are you are the best you've.
Been on two of my podcasts. You've been on Chefs PSA and
you're also on Run the Pass. Yes, that's right as well.
Go back and listen to that one, Emmanuel.
People could find you on Flavors Phenom.
They could find you everywhere. Thank you for being here.
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
I really appreciate it. I miss seeing you, it's been too
long. I know, I know.
But you, every time I come to Austin, you are the first person
I contact, so you know that. Yeah, thank you.
All right, that's the show. If you liked it, make sure you
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We'll see you next week. Hit the porno music.
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Drop the chef Dallas. No fiction stirring up the BT
enough the session. Listen close classes and sex.