Learn how to manage the fucking business because nothing else
matters except for profit. You live and die daily.
Yeah, and that's what I'm saying.
It doesn't matter what type of chicken steak you can make.
Hello chefs. This is Chefs PSA and I'm your
host Andre Natera. Today I'm joined by identical
twin chefs Brandon and Jonathan Dearden, both competitors on the
current season of Top Chef. Brandon is the chef and co-owner
of Ember and Grano and a recent James Beard Award semi finalist
for Best Chef Mountains, while Jonathan serves as corporate
chef for Need Hospitality and Design.
In this episode, we're going to talk about twin rivalry.
They're very different career paths, fine dining, restaurant
leadership and marketing yourself.
Stay tuned. So who's a better chef?
Like, like, yeah. So who's the who's the better
cook between the two of you? I'm.
Going to kick his ass every day. Yeah, every day.
Listen to I'm going to fight. Fight to the death.
Who? Would win in a real fight.
Well, yeah. It's it's, I probably win in a
real fight. But you know, the The thing is,
is we've been super competitive our whole life, right?
But like, you know, to go back to the beginning, see, Jonathan
was smart when he got out of high school, he went straight
into culinary school and I was working in a restaurant, but I
skipped all like, you know, I skipped that part.
So Jonathan actually we went two different paths.
So he decided to go right into culinary school right after
right after high school. I.
Didn't take a year off though. I know when I was 19 but I
enrolled like when I was 19. I didn't.
I dropped. Out of high school.
And, you know, I got that good enough diploma and it's OK, you
know, it's OK, yeah. Hey, it gets you to culinary.
School. But to make a Long story short,
he was a sous chef by what? What age?
1919. Within my first year of culinary
school, I was already a sous chef.
And you know, listen, it wasn't I got lucky because I worked my
ass off. Like it wasn't like, oh, this
guy's great. No, no, no, no.
I was like working the grill overtime.
So they, they hustled me. They put me on salary.
I ended up making less money than I did at hourly, but I
wanted to. It's that.
It's that classic salary trap. They're like, yeah, you can make
this amount per week. You know, my, my, my salary,
I'll never forget. It was 550 a week, OK, which is
nothing, you know, it's like like 30, something like 28 and
27, you know, like so. And I was making more money
working overtime, working 2 jobs.
And once I got put on that I couldn't even pay my mortgage,
you know. But it I wasn't.
You had a mortgage when you were 19.
Yeah, I bought a condo when I was 19 years old.
Oh yeah. Yeah, bro winning.
Yeah, but it was funny because after I figured out what
direction I wanted to go, you know, and I wanted to go and
fine dining. And so being a fine you're not
getting a sous chat position for I mean, I work years, but I
went, you know, luxury resort, Michelin level.
And so I worked, I call it the apprenticeship, but I worked at
the Breakers Palm Beach for like 5 years and I worked every
single outlet ended up in Lescalier, which is the French
restaurant. And I was still a cook, you
know, I mean, I was still a like a base level cook.
And this dude was and the. Breakers is a legendary.
And it was and, and, and for me, I learned so much within that,
you know, you know, it was 8 restaurants at the time.
I pretty much knew, you know, 90% of the outlets and opened a
couple of them. But you know, for me, it was
like I had capped out right? Like I wanted a sushi
reposition. It was never going to happen.
And it's because I was, you know, addicted to drugs and
alcohol. And I went down this just
terror. I got a DY when I was 20.
So they looked at me as like trouble, right?
But thankfully, you know, with insurance and everything, I was
able to go to rehab and, you know, stay out of prison and get
my life on track. And so I actually Cafe Beluta is
right down the street. But I was like, OK, in Florida,
in Florida, Palm Beach. And so I actually went right
down the street because I was like, hey, if you don't have a
position for me, I'm just going to, you know, it's my time.
And I went right down the street.
And I learned more in six months at Cafe Balloon then the whole
time at the Breakers. Don't get me wrong, I learned
professionalism. But when it comes to actually
cooking and like, you know, technique and misenplas and
French technique and all of this.
And then plus I, I, I think I had a, you know, it was a
blessing because we were opening DB Bistro in Miami.
And so Danielle was there, you know what I'm saying?
And that's what changed everything, right?
Because. Is the is the kitchen not not to
give all the DB secrets away? I'm sure it's a different vibe
when he's there, when he's not. There.
Oh, yeah, That was. Oh my God, yeah.
He would tell me stories, man. It was like, yeah.
And, and I and like, and this was back in the day, so, you
know, rules and regulations were a little bit different, you
know, and. There was no cell phones.
No one was pulling. Them out, Yeah.
That nobody could record you. You had a flip phone.
No proof like this didn't happen.
No receipts. Yeah.
And, and what was funny is like I knew this kitchen was so
serious. When I walk in the kitchen and
then there's a piece of blue tape that goes stretches along
the kitchen. And guess what?
It was. It was separating pastry from
savory. So the pastry chef at the time,
Arnaud, I think was his name. You weren't allowed to go on his
side. You know what I mean?
You couldn't touch it. Everything that had a piece of
blue tape on it was his. No.
No stealing produce, no, just fucking could I have that?
Like none of the savory in his. I was like, OK, I was like,
Dang, so like you can't even prep over here.
Don't touch it. Yeah.
And it was just, I was like, OK, so this so.
I want to ask whose idea was it to become a chef between the two
of you? Because identical twins for
people that haven't figured it out yet, right?
Identical twins at a certain .1 of you had the idea.
The light bulb went off, said I'm going.
To be a chef, yeah. So that was actually me and we
were. So just a little back story, my,
my mother and father are separated.
We used to go visit my dad on the weekends.
I know he used to be, he was a car, not a car salesman, but the
service manager. And then on the weekends he
would work at this place called Dax Grill in Virginia and we
would visit him on the weekends and family owned restaurants.
So they made everything from scratch, but it was very simple
food, but everything was made from scratch.
And we were, you know, we were young at the time, like 12 is
when we started like, actually like sleeping the floor and
being part, like helping out, doing dishes.
And then, you know, I remember us being busboys, you know, to
start. And then, you know, I was just
so intrigued with, you know, like the yelling and the
screaming and the tickets and the short order cooking inside
the kitchen. Well, these these cooks weren't
cooked. They were like short order
cooks, you know, They were like. Kitchens are brutal right now,
everyone knows it. Fewer people on the line,
margins tighter than ever, and somehow the expectations keep
going up. There's just no room to miss
anymore. I was talking to a chef recently
who said the biggest stress wasn't the volume, it was the
mental load. Babysitting, food, timing,
everything perfectly, trying to be everywhere at once.
And that's where equipment matters more than people want to
admit. Rationals.
Technology comes up a lot in those conversations.
The Icon B Pro, the Iverio Pro overnight roast that don't need
to be checked, custom programs for all your recipes,
Consistency without hovering completely automated cleaning,
monitoring everything from your phone, The list goes on.
And what really buys you the headspace?
Less standing over pans and more time to leave the kitchen
instead of constantly putting out tiny fires when you're down
to cook. When the prep list is rough,
when the production ramps up, think rational.
We learn, you know, saute is French for deep fry.
This is that this, this is the kind of cooks we were dealing
with. They would throw a whole thing
of mushrooms in the fryer and call them sauteed mushrooms.
OK, this is the cooks that we were.
Yeah, the steak, well done. Throw it.
Throw it in the fryer. Yeah.
Like, well, hammered, you know? Yeah, but just to circle back.
So like, well, somebody called out in the kitchen, obviously,
and then, you know, I had a chance to step up and I remember
my like, he's like, well, I just need help cleaning this fryer.
And I was so excited to clean this fryer because I was just
part of it. And it was back, back back in
the day. We used to filter it and then
put it back in with like, it was crazy contraption.
And you know, from that day I was just addicted, man.
Like anything that like, I don't know what it was.
I was just addicted to the adrenaline.
And like, you know, the, the, you know, the guy yelling at the
tickets and the food going up and like, you know, the banter
back and forth between the cooks.
And like for me, I was like, I got the bug, you know?
And it was funny because my brother saw how how much fun I
was having in the back of the house because I remember
skipping homecoming to work the line because somebody called out
and I was just hooked. But I will say I learned so many
bad habits off the jump that I had to re get retrained.
I remember the one thing that I learned.
That when you were at cafe, did you Did you throw the munchies
in the fryer? Absolutely not, but I will say
so. So we had BBQ, we had wings,
deep fried wings on the menu, right, Which is great.
But the cook taught me that you take the the portion bag with A
and wings in it and then you dip a little bit in the fryer so it
melts it and then the chicken wings fall in.
It's a. Super.
Good hack. And so that's the way I was
taught. And so I get to a fine dining
steakhouse and we had a chicken wing app and I remember doing
this. I'm like, no, you just do this.
And then I put the bag in the fryer and the chef looks at me.
He went to CIA and he's like, what the fuck are you doing?
He's like, who? And I was like, well, this is
how I was taught chef and I was 16 at the time, right?
He's like, great, now drop the fryer and put new fryer roll in
there. He's like, what are you doing?
He's like, now you're going to put plastic in people's food.
He's like, he's like, Oh my God. Like he's like, this is like he
like he was just mind blown. And so I'm like, Dang, like I
didn't know because I had no idea.
You know, same thing the way you were taught.
Yeah. Same thing with like, you know,
just in when you're. When you're a young kid and you
have never worked in a kitchen before and you see these little
tricks, Yes. I mean, I remember what my my
first kitchen job, they would pre portion the pasta in kits.
I pre cook it and then pre portion it.
And I remember I went home, bought a bunch of pasta, cooked
it and put it in a little bag, had it in my fridge like that.
Like whenever anyone comes over and watch.
This like 11 order or two orders.
Yeah, yeah. So quickly, I want to go back to
Brandon and his DUI situation. So let me tell you as a twin
brother and you know, I love this guy.
He he needed to drive to work, but his car got repo D.
They took his license from him. Yeah, they spent it for five
years. He convinced me to give me hit
my car and my license. OK, true story.
I get pulled over. I get pulled over and he's like,
hey, your license is suspended. I'm like, what do you mean my
license is suspended? Like, no, it's not.
I have a clean, clean record. He's like, no, no, you it's
suspended. He's like, I can look at it, you
know, let me get right back to you.
He's like, yeah, you had a ticket in West Palm Beach.
I lived in Fort Lauderdale. OK.
He rolled a stop sign, got a ticket, didn't pay it.
My license was suspended and I had to go to West Palm Beach to
pay the ticket and I had to tell this cop because they they were
like, they gonna arrest me because it's a criminal offense
in Florida with knowledge. And I was like, okay, I'm going
to be truthful. And you, I hopefully you can
believe me. I have a Facebook picture to
prove it. But we're twins and I gave him
my license and my car. He's like, okay, that's crazy.
He gave me a warning. He's like, but go take this
tick, go take care of this ticket.
Man. I was so mad.
So to the people out there, do
not give somebody your license and your your car.
Like literally my car. We switch cars because he wasn't
allowed to drive his car. So I drove his car in Fort
Lauderdale with my license and he drove my.
Car I was trying to fly, I was breaking the law.
And like, I mean, obviously, yeah, I feel bad for that
situation just so you know, but I, I ended up, of course it's
because at the Breakers Resort, like on Palm Beach Island, it's
super nice. But then once you cross the
bridge, there's what we call Tamron Ave., where you can get
crack cocaine and on all that stuff, right?
And so, like, there was always police, you know, stopped up
there. So like they'd be pulling over
people just to, you know, just to do it.
What are you doing here? And so, you know, I ended up
riding a bike for five years. But you know, yeah, it worked
out pretty good. But I say that story now and I'm
like, why the hell did I do that, you know?
Yeah. So, so, so Jonathan split off
and he was already a sous chef. Then he had an opportunity to go
to Jade Mountain in Saint Lucia To be well, I worked.
With Chef Allen first, yeah. And he was kind of like my
mentor. So I knew like right away, like
he was chasing Michelin star James Beard.
You know, he wanted like his caliber is fantastic.
You know, he worked with what was the first ship besides
Ballude. Then it was Charlie Palmer, you
know, and then you went to Vegas and worked with Wolfgang and
then you made the crazy idea to take a nice, he had a nice
executive suit salary in Vegas to go work at Alinea for $8.50
an hour. Crazy.
Good bloody decision, yeah. It was.
It was worth. The best decision of your entire
life. I I I Well, because I wanted to
do it, but I what? Year were you and Alinea?
So I want to say it was like 2011 2012 2. 1012 because we
come to the James Beard House and then you went to go work at
Delaney. After Yeah.
And you know, I had went before, so when I was still living in
Florida at Cafe Blued, we knew we wanted to get out of Florida.
So I went to go STAJ at a bunch of places.
Yeah. Joel Robichon in Las Vegas.
We I went to DC, New York, NY Danielle Cafe Blued over there.
And then in Chicago, I fell in love.
I staged at True. I also staged at L2O which was
freaking. One of the best meals I've ever
had in my life. L2O.
Well, that's a great restaurant. Listen well.
Kirkley was the chef when I when I.
Kirkley was just stepping up into Laurent Gras's position.
But Laurent Gras was still there when I was there.
He's a motherfucker. And dude, he.
Yeah. But it came, it came circle.
It came full circle because he remembered me.
Yeah. When I, when I was working at
Saison. And I almost, I am because like,
if for people that don't know, Laurent Gras is like, he's like
my superhero. He's you know he like and he's
you know he. Yeah, he's the.
Chef, he's a legend. He's like chef, chef.
Yeah, and, and, and honestly, I get chills just thinking about
it. When I remember like a pinnacle
in my career is when I'm breaking down Hamachi and he's
on one side, Joshua Skeens is on the other side and I'm breaking
the Hamachi. What's what's crazy is people
that listen to the show will have probably heard Laurent Gras
name in a legendary status more more so than than people
realize. You know, I mean, Breeden talked
about him. I'm trying to think who else
talk about, you know, one of the we had we had people don't know
he was Ducas chef. Yeah, right.
He got him the most special stars.
At Louis Cons, Yeah, like when, when Ducas was like taking over
the world, like Laurent Grow was the fucking man.
Yeah, yeah. Priscilla is like that's that's
a name. He was the first person that
ever had that digital cookbook. Yeah.
And you remember that blog he had?
Yes, yes, 100% yeah. I mean, the guy rides his bike
everywhere. He's just a legend and what he
does with food is amazing. He looked like a ninja when he
was in L2O. Like a ninja suit wasn't even a
chef jacket. It was all black.
But he remembers me because I remember Matthew Kirkley.
Guy was working with Ungormer. Ji was dodging, but he was
fucking up this crab salad, like, I mean, and it was so
easy. It was crab and avocado and
grapefruit segments or something like that.
It was like super easy and Matthew's like you're fucking
the salad up, you know, and he's like, you know, I don't recall,
but I I remember just tell him like, dude, I can make this like
it's really easy. And I'm like, you just have to
follow instructions like it's not hard.
And so I started playing them up and then, you know, Laurent
Gras, he saw it and he's like, no, this is great.
This is great. Like and he gave the the thumbs
up. But I but when circle when we
were open up the anglers at Saison and he came in to take
over for Joshua Skeens. I'm like, chef, do you Remember
Me? I was at L2O, you know, blah,
blah, blah. He's like, yeah, crab salad.
And I'm like. Yeah, dude, that must have been
like a Dude I fanboy moment. Right.
How did I miss how I think I'm in an alternate time?
I don't remember. He.
So him being at, I'm sorry. Yeah.
So 2000, in 2017, he took so Joshua Skeens and This is why I
like, and I'll get into this later, but This is why this is
when I lost respect for a little bit of Michelin when, when, when
this happened. But Joshua Skeens was working on
2 new angler projects. And so I was I was hired on as
the executive chef for Los Angeles and but I had to train
in at Ceisson and then also help with San Francisco.
But Laurent Gras was taking over Joshua Skeins spot at Ceisson
and then they lost him. They lost their third star and
only got 2 when Laurent with Laurent Gras.
Exactly. And I and I was like, I
remember, I remember talking to Paul, I was like, you know, it's
so unbelievable to me that you know, they of course when the
chef leaves, they lose a star. I get that.
But like for Laurent Gras, like dude, that's that.
Literally that literally like took all the credibility out of
my soul. Man, the guy who's gotten three
stars at L2O, Luis Khan's and who knows where else, right?
Yeah, and I mean. I know they didn't get 3 stars
at Peacock but. Still, dude, he's like, I mean,
when it comes to seafood, this guy is the man.
But anyway that that that's what happened.
So Laurent Kraut took over and they got they lost the star and
you know, a lot of people were upset, but they weren't as upset
as like I, you know, if you're a young cook and young chef and
you're looking towards Michelin as like the pinnacle, you know,
this is frustrating. Like I wasn't even mad about
like the chicken cart getting a Michelin star, the tacos get a
Michelin star. But like Laurent Gras is like.
Dude he is decorated. What was the?
I'm, I'm sure there was a narrative.
Yeah. And, and, and it might have been
a real narrative, or it might have just been on the streets.
Yeah. What was the narrative as to why
he lost the star? Was there like was?
How did people justify this? So what I what I was told is
that every time a chef leaves, they lose a star or something
like that, or they lose the stars, go with them and then
they get re awarded. And so yeah.
And so not, but I was. I blacked it out of my mind
because I was so upset. Did L2O not get 3 stars in their
first year? I you know what?
I'm not sure that was so long ago, but I remember L2O having
three stars. Yeah.
And, you know, but it's just crazy to me, like, especially as
Saison held 33 Michelin stars for, you know, it was like 2014
through 17. Per SE, got it.
Per SE, Le Bernadin. I mean, yeah, French lottery,
They got three stars the first year.
Yeah, 100%. I mean, I don't know.
That's what I'm saying, yeah. And like we could, but it was
Laurent Gras was the man. I remember I I'm used to
breaking down my fish with a slicer knife.
Mizzono slicer, right? But he's like, he's like, he's
like, do you have a debba debba knife?
And I'm like, I do chef. He's like, you should use that.
But I don't like to use the debba.
But he's like, it's more comfortable.
But I knew how to do it because I've I've learned how to break
down, especially Hamachi with with with a debba.
But I did it anyway. You know, I'm like, yeah, no
problem. I got a Masimo debba.
No problem. Like let's do the Masimoto
debba. And like, it was just funny when
I was sitting there, like shaking because I'm just like,
dude, I can't believe both these chefs are watching me.
You know, we did like, cured kombu and we were doing research
development. But it was just like, man, like
walking the farmers market with Laurent Gras and watching him
get excited about, like, smelling vegetables.
Tasting. I think he's back in New York,
but I'm not sure. I mean is.
He still chefing? I think you know, I'm not sure.
I know he was working on some like tableware and stuff, but I
really haven't been following him, you know?
But great chef, man. So here's a hot.
I want a hot take. Yeah.
So you went to culinary school? Yes.
Did you go to culinary? School, yeah, I actually got
smart and I knew back in the day you had to get you like it was
you supposed to go to culinary school, but I went I went to the
I was smart so I didn't I knew that I didn't have enough money
to go to CIA or Johnson and Wales, so I went to the Florida
Culinary Institute in West Palm Beach, FL I.
Went to the Art Institute in Fort Lauderdale.
Yeah, right. So culinary school did did it
help you? Did it hurt you?
Did it? Was it just general orientation?
So, so I think, I think education is important on all
levels. Do you need to go to culinary
school to cook? No.
But did it help me throughout my career and push me further in my
career? Yes.
And what pushed me further more was the, you know, the
marketing, the business aspect. You know, I knew how to cost a
recipe when I was, you know, 20 years old because that's what I
learned at school and then I applied it as a sous chef in my
real life. So it helped me for my career
and like pushed me forward. And I was, you know, I was going
back to what Brandon said is like, I knew that I wanted to
manage kitchens, not just be a a great cook, you know, and I kind
of like, you know, I was an executive chef by by the age of
22, you know, so I was, did I know what I was doing?
Hell no. Did I know how to cook?
Absolutely. But I didn't know anything about
food cost, labor or anything like that.
So but I knew in my mind, my heart soul that I wanted to, I
wanted to move up the chain. So, you know, he's over there,
you know, working at Elenia and I'm paying his rent.
Yeah, that's funny. He like he can't even watch.
He's like, I gotta, I gotta choose between darks and whites
this week. Yeah, because I don't have
enough money to do 2 loads. And I'm like, Dang, bro, I'm
like, you know, So I was like giving him money because I was
supporting his dream, you know? But I was living vicariously
through him. I wasn't willing to.
Give he was making bank in Saint Lucia, don't don't.
He wasn't like he was broke too. He was making bank tax free, so.
Yeah, tax free money, man, it was, it was beautiful, you know,
but also I that's where my career jumped.
Off Have you guys ever worked together?
No, but not necessarily. He just not necessarily we've
done dinners together and stuff, but like, you know, we're two
different types of chefs. Yeah.
And so for. But what's crazy to go back to
culinary school, I went to culinary school and I already
had like the prerequisite to go to go to culinary.
Like I already knew how to prep, knife work, all that, all that
stuff. What was valuable for me is not
spending a ton of money, right? Because I don't care what
anybody says. The ROI is not there.
When you get out of culinary school, you are starting as a
prep cook. You're starting at the bottom.
But what was valuable for me is I actually went back because I
already had all the prerequisites of class.
I went back for international baking and pastry and so I took
a nine month program that really set me up for success in the
future because when it came to pastries and baking, like, you
know, I can make chocolate chip cookies like right now, by the
way, I dogged him for that. I was like baking and pastry
like you. That's that's stupid.
You know, like, why would you waste your time on that?
You know, like, and it's really gotten me far because I can't
explain it, you know, especially at Alinea, you know, like Alinea
like I started working the pit like it was, I was working the
hot app station. And this is a funny story
because like, the chocolate guy didn't show up and nobody else
in the everybody was savory chefs, right?
And so they're like, and I remember Chef Matt was like,
does it is our 12:00 meeting? He's like, does anybody know how
to temper chocolate? And I'll shot my hand and I'm
like, yeah, chef, I do. I don't souvy it, but I I can
temper chocolate, you know? And he's like, well, you're
making the chocolate balls. And I'm like, OK, no problem.
And if you work pastry, you know that pastries don't start until
mid service. 730 And so I would set up my station 1st and then I
go downstairs in the wine room and make and make the chocolate
balls. But they had a specific
technique on how to temper the chocolate and they double double
bagged it and then put in the circulator, which respectfully,
I thought was stupid. You want to keep chocolate far
away from water. And then plus like a double
boiler just works like it's just, it's, it's really easy to
do. But like, anyway, so I'm down in
the I'm down in the, I'm, I'm down in the wine room making
chocolate because it's a controlled room, right?
And it's funny because like, you know, the chef is like, you
know, like he's testing the ball.
I'm like, chef, I know it's going to be good.
Is that that was the time when we did like a chestnut dessert
where we broke the chocolate ball on the table, you know, and
I know I only needed forty and they were with balloons.
Like it was easy, like for me as you know, but nobody else knew
how to temper chocolate. And you know, I knew these
temperatures like the back of my hand because I went to pastry
school, right? And so it's just really funny
because I, we had these little birthday chocolates too, and we
ran out and usually the chocolate guy makes it.
And so I'm in the middle of service, pastry guy next to me
is like, shit, I don't have any more birthday balls.
And I'm like, dude, it's easy. So on my station, I got the
induction double boiler, but the sous chef comes over.
He's like, we don't do it this way chef.
And I'm like, I know, but chef, I'm not going to go set up a
circulator down in the basement to double bag chocolate and then
run down and wait an hour and a half for it to be tempered when
I only need 1/4 of a cup, you know, And then, so it was funny
because Chef Matt, you know, he was like, he's like, make sure
you double check, make sure. And I'm like, it's just a ball.
Like it's, it's, you know, it's like a bonbon, but a circle.
And it was really, it was so funny because I, I just thought
in my head like, you know, as you know, coming to Elenia as a
sous chef, there's a lot of young managers that just
shouldn't be, they just shouldn't be managers.
You were the sous. Chef No, I was not, no no, I was
just a chef to partique. But what I what I what I from
what I know now and not to, you know, everybody who's just doing
the best they can there. But like, if I would have known
what I know now, I would have talked to Grant himself about
like my what I wanted to do there because there was too many
layers, you know, and you have to make, you know, like when
when as soon as Mike Bagel got begal, I should say he as soon
as he got promoted, I knew my I was was over for me.
That right. I was like, OK, it's going to
take years because, you know, Chef Simon was behind him, you
know what I mean? And so I knew that, OK, well,
there's only next and Avery. And so I'm like, man, it's going
to take years to get into a position, you know, and like it.
You know, the what I learned there was excellent.
And you know I. And you were there.
I've been when Elena was. Like pumping #7 in the world.
I mean, it was dude, it was, it was pumping.
But I will admit, man, I saw so, so much talent get chewed up and
spit out. And especially 1, I remember one
guy, Caleb, man, he's the, he's the chef that was in at Schwa
now. And I just saw him on Instagram
like oh shit, Caleb dude, I remember training this guy and
he looked at me. He's like, I'm not doing this.
I can't do this. This is stupid.
And I'm like, what do you mean? I'm like, chef, it's OK, hey,
just stay with me, you know, because I, I appreciated stages,
you know, I want to talk to people because it's a silent
kitchen. But I remember him walking out,
but he was talented, you know, and that's, I mean, he's a chef
that was in a straw now, but it was that was a, that was a very
difficult kitchen to, to, to work in.
And if you didn't change your mindset, like you're not going
to make it right. Like 100%, every single thing,
every decision that you made was Alinea focused.
Yeah. And I, I worked with Brandon for
a week because I wanted to understand.
It so I took a vacation, worked with him for a week.
Mommy was like, hey, this is you bro.
We clean the kitchen so much, but it taught like, listen, I
haven't high level of respect. There's one thing to be able to
cook very good, but to master the artistry of cooking and
deliver in a performance like that for a dining experience, I
knew right away this wasn't for me.
You know, this is I'm like, I don't vibe well with three
Michelin. Starbucks, it was for me.
Look, look, you loved it dude. When I when I did my 2 day
storage, I thought I was a good cook.
I thought I was, you know, because I would run circles
around people and I would cook my ass.
You had you had kitchen, house and brother.
I was I walked, but when I walked in that back door my
first storage day and I saw people moving and they were so
much better than me. Like that was the bottom line.
The the the girl that I was paired with.
I forgot her name, but I wish I could stay connected.
She's like, we have to get this Demi glass on by by noon.
You know how to cook. That's not the problem.
The problem is getting your team to do what you want when you
want it. That's leadership.
My book, Culinary Leadership Fundamentals, breaks down
exactly how to run a kitchen without losing your mind.
Stop yelling. Start leading.
Get the book at Chefs psa.com. So she so she's like we have,
she's like, hey, suit up, we got to get ready.
We have to have this Demi gloss on by 12:00 PM.
And I'm like, OK, chef, like no problem.
She's like, so I need you to cut this mirror pawn 6 minutes.
And I'm like, you know, anyway, I start hammering and then, you
know, it's funny because like, you know, they're everybody's
looking, you know, that's a new guy in the kitchen.
And I'm just like, I'm just doing the best I can.
But, you know, she's like, it's not fast enough, Chef.
You got to go faster. And I'm like, I'm going as fast
as I can in my mind. And it's funny because she did
the same task the next day half the time.
Wow. Yeah.
She's like and you think you're a gangster.
Yeah, she's like, she's like, no, stand there.
You fucking watch me and I'm like, yes, chef.
And then I'm like, what's this girl gonna?
You know what I mean? Dude, she's smoked it, bro.
Like, I mean, she's like it has to go on by this time it has to
cook for six hours. She's like that, you know, and
I'm, it was so serious and I was just like, dude, that's crazy,
you know, And then, and it was just funny because that, that
was kind of the, the drive in the perseverance that like I
needed at that time and that, that, that tunnel vision,
anything in the outside world could have been going on and I
would have never even known because there was only two
things that I was thinking about. 1, survival.
And two, my prep list and being set up on time.
And that was it. Nothing else was important.
Any family, any, any, anything family happening outside
couldn't make it didn't, it didn't even matter.
I was working six days a week to, to focus on this path and it
was absolutely crazy. And tunnel vision was like at
the top of the, you know, top of the chain.
It was funny. Yeah, but I, I'm gonna, I wanna
go back to the, to the level of intensity.
So number one, I get in there and I am 100% focused working
with him. And he is, I'm like his little
bitch, you know? And I'm, I'm used to running
kitchens right at this point. I'm an executive chef.
I'm overseeing 60 something staff.
I got 5 sous chefs. I got 2 pastry chefs.
Like I am the one telling people what to do.
He's like, hey, do this, hey, do that, do this.
And I'm like moving. I'm running.
OK, running. Not only that, but finally after
like day three, day four, I got to work the hotline.
OK. Chef Mike Bagel.
Yeah, and Simon Davies, you know, like they're on the other
side. I'm, I'm a commie cook, but on
the hot side. Brandon's on the other side.
And I'm I take, there's a little bit of salt that fell on the
table. I wipe it onto the floor.
Dude, Chef Mike, because looks at me, he's like, do we look
like the type of restaurant that swipes stuff on the floor?
And I'm like, no, chef, it's like, don't ever do that again.
I'm like, I'm like, Dang, I'm like, you know what?
And I remember that till this day, because every time I see
somebody wipe something on the floor, that's a that's a, that's
a bad habit. Yeah, it's a bad habit.
Then you're stepping. You're stepping in shit tray or
Yep, yeah, a little trailer. Or in your hand?
In your hand. Yeah, well, even when we when we
scrubbed the kitchen down 400 times a day, we had hotel pants
and squeegees and I'm like, I just cleaned the spot and then
Brandon's coming back and cleaning it right after me.
And you know, that drove me crazy because I'm like, it's not
efficient. There's a certain order for the
scrub down, right? Yeah, like.
Top to bottom, top to bottom, you're scrubbing your table,
you're squeezing it into a hotel pan, you're putting it down the
drain. But just that experience itself
just opened up my mind to This is why we do this, because if
you wipe that salt on the on the floor, you're wiping everything
on the floor, right? Doesn't matter what it is you
know and you. Have to leave it better than you
found it, but it's. And the and the same thing I
think you know, Brandon also made a good .1 time.
We were talking like about when you're working a station, you
know, nobody should know what you were working on right there.
Shouldn't like if you're breaking down salmon, there
shouldn't be salmon scales over here and over there.
You know, when you're working with equipment in the kitchen,
like your RoboCop should go to the same spot where it's being
stored. Dude, Alinea, they had tape
where the scale was. This is where the scale stayed.
Don't move it. You bring, don't move it.
You bring whatever you need to measure, come over to the scale.
Vitamix, Vitamix, Vitamix. And I implemented that in my
kitchens because I was like, you know what?
It is smart and efficient and you're never looking for
something. You, you could learn a lot of
really good practices and these ultra high end kitchens on how
to work efficiently, how to organize yourself 1000%, how to
make sure you know, time is of the essence like you were
talking about. There's so much good that comes
from, from, from working in a lot of these kitchens, But
sometimes there's also some bad. And I and I've noticed, and I'm
curious what your thoughts are. Sometimes you you hire people,
it's based on resume and then they come in and it's.
Like they suck. And it they, it's hard to adapt
when yeah, it's, it's easy to adapt when everything's perfect.
It's very difficult to adapt when nothing's.
Perfect. Yeah, 100%.
And I'll say this, and I mean with the utmost respect, but if
I see Thomas Keller on the resume, I'm not hiring, not
hiring and and here's. And.
Here's now. Now, here's the thing, say what
you want, but I've worked with and I have so much respect for
that group and I have so much respect for Thomas Keller.
And obviously working at Alinea with Grant Hacketts, he's a
protege of Thomas Keller. But these cooks come out here
brainwashed. And I've worked with enough
Bouchon cooks and enough French Laundry cooks, especially in
California where it's like they can't, they're brainwashed.
They cannot adjust and stick and move.
And like it's frustrating. The only one that I will say
Damien Evers shot out, he was at Bouchon for 10 years.
But you know, he had this mentality and I told him so I
was like, you know, 'cause he, we got paired together when we
were open up anglers. And I remember telling Paul the,
you know, the culinary director or his name is Jonathan, but I
was told Paul was like, you know, usually I never like I'd
never hire French Laundry at all because of these, you know, of
the brainwashing, you know what I mean?
And I don't care what anybody says.
You can say what you want. And you know, I own my own
restaurants now. So like mashed?
Potatoes. They only do it that way, yeah.
So like, so like I was so sick of hearing.
So when I was at Oreo, I also worked with my, the two sous
chefs I work with, They came from Bouchon, right?
But they did things a certain way.
And that was it. And it's just like they couldn't
open their mind to how to like. And that's the thing.
And so for the young chefs and cooks out there, if you go to a
restaurant to work, wherever you worked before is wonderful, but
do not bring that up every single time you were in the
kitchen, that is. Used to do it this way, yeah.
Well, when I was at French Laundry, we did it this way and
it's, it's almost unbearable, right?
Yeah. And so, and, you know, that's no
disrespect. It just is what it is, right?
And so like, I mean, I just went through this recently.
You know, I have this, you know, I have a lot of DMS of like
cooks that want to come work and, you know, and it's, and
it's funny because I saw Per SE on the resume and like, oh, I
want to get back to the mountains.
And I'm like, oh, that's nice. Nope.
Well, I will, I will say another thing, you know, throughout my
career when I see culinary schools on resumes, I, you know,
that doesn't matter. Like I look for experience and
#1 do you pass the vibe check? You know, I think a lot of, you
know, a lot of this business is about who you know and the
relationships that you create over the years that you work.
Don't burn any bridges, you know, leave things better than
when you got them. Leave a job better than when
you, you know, got there just 'cause you went to CIA doesn't
anything doesn't. Honestly, it's as the it's at
ain't where you from, it's where you at.
Yeah, that's that's 100%. None of that matters when the
shit hits the fan. Yeah, yeah.
Another hot take is, you know, like I remember I, there was
only one vision for me and that was 3 Michelin star.
That was, you know, that was five star, 5 diamond.
That was like it was the only thing I can think about.
And so when I started at Oreo 1 Michelin star, Vincent Poiselle,
one of the best chefs I've ever worked for a French chef, you
know, he's from Paris and like he, like, I hate to say it, but
he was in the French connect and you know, Joe Robuchon and
Latelli, you know, and, and you know, the techniques he taught
me, I'll, I'll, I'll bring you know, wherever, like making a
large, like a large amount of food, 400 covers, but still at
that Michelin quality. And that really taught me
production, right. And so The thing is, is then,
you know, go like working in this style of cuisine.
And I'll just say, and Charlie Palmer is the one who actually
told me, you know, listen, Lenny is great, but that's for like 1%
of the world. And he's like, you know, you're
going to find yourself, you pigeonholed yourself into this
three Michelin star mindset. And he's like, you know, so like
if me as a restaurant or if I was going to hire you for this
hotel project, the Knickerbocker in New York City where it's
catering, it's brunch, it's lunch, it's banquets.
He's like, not only will you fail, but also you're only going
to make a certain amount of money if you can't oversee more
services. And I'm like, you know, that's
so true. I didn't really think about it
like that. And so like, that's my only
thing. I only knew dinner service, you
know, And so for me, it was really when I started working at
the Wolfgang Puck Group that I started to branch out.
I worked Wolfgang Puck fine dining.
So I came back from millennia. I was going to go back to
Charlie Palmer in Las Vegas and then Wolfgang Pucks, you know,
Matt Hurley, the chef at Palazzo, He's like, are you
coming back, back to Vegas? He's like, we got to get you to
the group, you know? And so I was offered a position
I couldn't refuse. And I Yep.
And I was the executive sue at Spago at Caesar's Palace.
And I started working with Eric Klein, which is another great
mentor of mine. He's an awesome, but rightfully
so. When I came out of millennia, I
was hot. I was like.
Don't tell me what to do. First day, first day, I'm like,
I got big capital letters. Don't slam the door here.
Don't slam the ice. Put the ice scoop back.
I'm like, and you know, and what I realized and Eric, I remember
Eric because he was just telling me he was calming.
He was like, hey, listen, I know you came out of a three Michelin
star restaurant. He's like, but also you have to
understand, like Maria, the prep cook is not going to be
receptive to that type of leadership.
And I'm and that changed my perception and I remember and I
had a coach. You out of a lot of those
situations. And he would for the first six
months. It was very difficult for me.
You know why? Because I was working by myself
and we, we had four sous chefs and we lost all of them.
It was just me and Eric. And I would imagine that, and
I'm not saying that maybe you had this there, but I would
imagine like you probably got in trouble a lot like someone, hey,
can we, can we talk? Yes, yes, someone kind of like
who you spoke to. Yeah, because I would.
It was true. I would just blaze down.
I'd be working the grill station.
I like. I would be.
And I'd be cursed person and yelling in like you, you know,
you suck. But like what people don't
understand is not everybody has that same drive and passion and,
you know, mentality. Yeah, exactly like we're.
Willing to deal with as much as they're willing.
To listen. Yeah, exactly.
And like, listen, Maria's leaving at 3:30.
She's gonna go pick up her kids and she's gonna, you know, and
that's, that's what she's gonna do.
Like good example I had, you know, I call it the Latino force
on the line at Las Vegas. And you know, they are solo and
I that's what I miss in Montana, let me tell you.
But careful now. Yeah, dude, I'm like, yo, hey,
if I don't want to say, I don't want to say, but I was like, yo,
if ice is giving you trouble, come out to Montana, bro.
They won't see you come out here, bro.
You know what I mean? Like, but it's it's funny
because like I like I'll never forget when I learned how to be
a better leader. My life got better, you know,
and I really took, I took coaching classes.
I took I did so much because I didn't really click for me at
Oriel. Oriel was a union environment.
And I remember Chef Vincent like, because I couldn't wrap my
head around. So I'm just going back to when I
was working at Oriel as a sous chef.
I couldn't wrap my head around in a union environment how the
cooks would just wrap up the food and then walk off the line.
Oh, yeah. Without cleaning.
Yeah. Yeah.
Because it wasn't their job. Yeah.
And then they're like, they're like Chef you.
It's union. You can't take the job away from
the Stewart. And I'm like, what are you
talking about? Clean up your shit.
Like you can't just leave the line and then Vince, since like,
hey, this is union, this is a union property.
They don't you have to understand that's not part of
their job. And I'm like, do you mean it's
not my job? That was my work, dude.
Fuming. And so anyway.
Smoke out of the ears, everything.
So here we go. We're in HR the next day right
off the bat, so and Vincent, Vincent was like, I remember
chef, he looked at me. We go into HR, he's like, don't
say a word. And I'm like, how am I?
How am I supposed to defend myself, chef?
Like they don't know. You don't understand the
standard we're trying to go for here.
We're in the HR office. Let me tell you something.
They're not there for you, right?
They will cut the manager so fast compared to the employee
and so it's funny because like I start talking and all I feel is
the grip of death from Chef Vincent and he said.
Shut up. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because she was like, well, we,
I want to talk about this situation and tell me, you know,
blah, blah, blah. And she was like a lawyer, you
know what I mean? And so I'm like, well, you know,
you know, I want to make sure the standard's high.
It's not. And she's like, Oh, yeah, tell
me more. And trying it out of you.
And so then we doing this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, please.
Tell me, how do you feel that way?
And exactly and. Anything you say can and me
will. Yeah.
And so it was funny because I actually, and I will say this
until I'm blue in the face, working in a union environment,
managing in a union environment, it made me a better leader
because, you know, your hands are tied, You know, you can't
just do what you want. And it teaches you how to work
with people. And I think that is a super
important part of my career that, you know, that that kind
of sucks when you work at the Super high level because
everybody is kind of like, you know, they you all want to push
for greatness, but also that doesn't translate out to the
real world. Right.
Yeah. And and if I could interject
here, that moment for people that don't understand this
intense conversation in HR with you there.
And you're just saying how you feel because you come from a
world where the only important person is the chef, right.
And the chef's vision. And now you're in a place where
the chef is an important piece on the chess board amongst a
bunch of other important pieces. 100%.
And as soon as you stepped up, they said to the to the chef,
they said you stay back. You stepped out of the room and
they said that guy doesn't fucking get it.
Yeah, right. Yeah.
Are you gonna or do we need to start?
Do we need to start presentation?
Yeah, right. Paper trail.
Because at that moment the chef is thinking shut the fuck up.
He's grabbing it by the arm and he's thinking.
He's thinking to himself, I don't want to have.
To fire you. Yeah, exactly.
I need you exactly. And, and I'll also mention this
like if you are working in a hotel partnership between a chef
and the in the hotel, OK, it is super important to be a bomb
liaison between the partnership because a lot of people don't
understand. And when I worked at Wolfgang
Puck in at Hotel Bel Air and I was a chef de cuisine and I
remember Wolfgang saying, hey, why do you have to go to all
these meetings? And I'm like Chef, you don't.
Yeah, you need to show face. Chef, you have to like, I mean,
he's like, yeah, but it's stupid.
You guys shouldn't be in office. You should be cooking.
And I'm like, Chef, I hear you and I respect you and I'm trust
me and I'm with you, but like. But we got to talk about the
employee rally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like.
They want to know what's being served in the Swan Cafe at noon.
Like, you know, And I'm just like, and it was so funny
because I, and I remember telling myself like, OK, this is
important. And I, and I'll, I'll stress, I
can't stress enough, like every experience, you can take
something from every experience. And you know, depending on what
type of chef you want to be in, for the young cooks out there,
what I recommend is like figure out what type of chef you want
to be as fast as possible. And this will change because
there's so like a lot of people think they can just put a chef
jacket on, hop on Instagram and post Tik Toks and now all of a
sudden they're a chef. Let me tell you something.
Yeah. Nah, doesn't work.
Chef means something. OK?
Chef means leader of the kitchen.
It, it's not like it's a, it's a specific thing.
It's like saying you're electric without having the the proper
documentation, you know what I mean?
It's like and. And if I could go back to
something that you said earlier, but I'm gonna defend Thomas.
I'm gonna defend Thomas Keller for for a minute because I feel
like I, I left him hanging out there and didn't.
I didn't defend him because I've done exactly what he's done.
I know why he does what he does. Yeah.
Because when you want to work at that and you know this, Yes.
When you want to work at that three Michelin star level where
it's a Linea, French Laundry, L2O, whatever.
Yeah, you need everyone to fucking operate in this system.
You have to you. Do not deviate from our system.
1000% and I will be on. Let me go back to defend Thomas
Keller two. That is my superhero.
Don't get me wrong. I remember when the under
pressure book came out, OK, under pressure sous video.
I read that thing cover to cover.
I did everything a single recipe in there.
I got sous video tattooed on my arm.
Polly Science, you know, shout shouted me out.
They use they use me in the demo.
So I will say 100% when that that per SE, the French Laundry
cookbook changed my life in, you know, in early, late 90s, late
90s. But I will say, I will say the
biggest thing that I've learned as a restaurant operator in a,
you know, in managing restaurants and being a chef to
cuisine executive sous chef, you know, demographic is everything,
you know. And so it's, it's just super
important, like a good example of the, the, you know, the
techniques and some of the stuff that is taught at the Thomas
Keller Group and you know, at Bouchon, you know, it doesn't
translate over to. And that and that's the to.
To Hamilton, Mt right and and and also it doesn't translate to
in in like, well, San Francisco maybe, but like, you know,
there's certain places where you know, you have a demographic
that's a certain menu market fit where you have to cut cost.
You like it doesn't need to be a perfect circle.
Well, and, and I, I, I want to talk about this with you because
I know you have several restaurants that are very
successful and in running a successful restaurant is
difficult. And so using the example of the
French Laundry or Linear or any of any of these really high end
3 Michelin star kitchens. When you're a chef at one of
these places or a cook at one of these places and you leave and
you say, I want to basically replicate this because I loved
it. And then you go into a different
kitchen because they hire you because you have 3 Michelin
stars on your resume and they make you the chef, but you only
got 2 cooks. But you still wanna do the food
like if you had 20 cooks, right? And you still wanna do the food
like if you had a food cost at this.
Yeah, right. But then you realize, hey, the
owner doesn't have that unlimited bank account.
Yep. And you know what?
We have to we maybe we don't make it all from scratch. 100.
Percent and so you know I'll just double down just to give a
quick summary I moved out to Montana to start a restaurant
group and I wanted to create what Thomas Keller created in
Napa Valley back in the late 90s and let me tell you something
it's not all success right at least try to launch five
businesses at once three of them failed I'm you know now divorce
with my partners you know we own the restaurants 100% but like
the reality is. Is my my and, and I got to give
props to my brother here because I moved to Montana.
I was, you know, living in California, You know, there's no
other better place to. Live.
California, it's the best, but the reality is all the chefs use
the same thing. We're all using Brent Wolf
quails, we're all using abalone, we're all using California
sturgeon, right. And and working at Saison, I
knew where all the good stuff was.
So like, yes, I could have had the opportunity to open a
restaurant in Palo Alto and I almost did it was close, but I
also know that all money is not good money.
Tech money is is very like they don't care about you.
And the reality is, is I wanted to, why do you say that?
Well, tech investors, and this is not everybody, tech
investors, private equity, you know, restaurants are more of a
business meeting. Say I own this.
It's not like, and that's why I, you know, when I say all money
is not good money when you're talking to, let's say the
principal about of the tech group or whatever it is.
And they're like, yeah, hey, chef, whenever you open a
restaurant, it's great, blah, blah, blah.
But then you have to deal with his finance team, right?
Who don't look and you have to deal with their accounting.
And it's like, well, how much money do you need?
OK, well I need 2 million to open this restaurant, you know
well he owns the space so how much we need for the kitchen
renovation and then they start picking apart, but none of them
do restaurants. Then they they're just looking
how fast can I get my money back, which is arguably that's
how tech they. Are right, Yeah.
And it's like, and, and, but The thing is, is like in in
California, especially in, especially in Silicon Valley and
Bay Area, you know, all the chefs that have tasting menus
guaranteed there's like nobody's doing anything new.
And so for me not to say that the restaurants aren't good, but
what I will say is I wanted to go to a place that was
undiscovered. There was nobody on no chef
representing. And when I went to Montana, it
was like, I mean, there's it's sticks, bro, like boonies out
there. But I came out too ambitious
when we opened Ember, right? And I sent him my menu.
He look, he analyzed his menu all the time.
He he called me, he called me straight away.
He's like, it's, it's too ego driven, like you're crazy.
This is. Like this is like pear and
freaking goat cheese and frizzee salad.
Like all kinds of What was it? No, no, no, no.
I had. It was like it was just too chef
to. California.
It was too California for Montana.
Yeah, and so, and it's funny because if you look at my menu
now like and I don't care what anybody says cuz now that I own
my own restaurants, I got middle fingers up to anybody that wants
to give me advice about owning like.
Here's something I say, Yeah, and I think you'll appreciate
this. Everyone always says run it like
you own it. It makes a lot more sense when
you own it. Yes, right.
When they say run it like you own it, as soon as you own it,
you realize. Oh, that's that's what they
meant. Yeah, 100%.
And it's like, you know, as a chef, I never, ever like a good
example and I'll just use Grano Grano's, my Italian restaurant,
Italian American is what I call. It's not authentic.
OK, please. But you know, like.
You got chicken off right? On them, yeah, bro, yes, yes.
Chicken off I do pays the bills. Listen, listen, I'll tell them.
Man, I was like. I'll be honest, like I remember
I came out and like you're like, it is so funny, man.
I got this winter Salvia Radicio and Treviso like in like, you
know, the pizzas Neapolitan style, like so it's like, you
know, it's a three day firm man. And I'm using, you know, Caputo
flower imported from Italy. That's the the highest one.
It's the supernova, which is the best.
But it's, it's it's funny because like in that
demographic, you know, you can't make the same pizza that you
would make in Seattle, WA or San Francisco that you would make in
Hamilton, Mt. And for me, that was my non
negotiable right. Like I was like, no, this is the
pizza I love. I love Neapolitan style.
I love wood fired pizza. And I'm just going to educate.
Oppose. Did you give them scissors like
you could only cut it? With we we would cut it.
We would cut it table size because we we cut it with
scissors tableside when we first started.
Now we. Cut it.
What the fuck is they're? Like what's going on?
Yeah. Bullshit.
Well, because in their mind, they know Pizza Hut, Domino's,
Yeah, and the breweries. And The thing is, is it's not
their fault. They don't know what artisan
pizza is. They might, but all the
tourists? Do they they have no frame of?
Reference and and and that's fine.
And that's where as a chef you have to say, OK, where's the
middle ground? Where can I feel like a great
chef, but also I need to make money or else we don't have a
restaurant. And I think that's the the sad
truth. Good example, truffle fries,
right? Listen.
I hate truffle lol. I don't care if selling truffle
fries. Listen, I don't care what
anybody says when I'm looking at this menu mix and I have a great
truffle fry recipe. I actually make a truffle
vinaigrette. Hit them up.
I get the extra crispy French fries that are battered, you
know, but like, it's funny because it cost me 0 labor, you
know, it's, it's it's. It's it's crack for the clubs.
Listen. It's I make a truffle
vinaigrette. I'm putting truffle oil all in.
Straight out and and this is going to be funny for you
because you guys are chefs, but I have three potato sides on my
menu at Ember right now, three sides of potatoes.
I have the 24 hour potato, which is one of our signature dishes,
right? It's a great dish.
I've learned how to speed up the prep so it's not so labor
intensive, but it's one of our signatures.
Then I have mashed potatoes and I also have truffle fries, and
they all equally sell and listen.
I feel terrible because sometimes I'm like, you know,
but this is what sound like I don't waste any more time with
dogs on the menu, you know, because it's not worth it.
It's not worth holding on to the inventory.
It's not worth it. Let let me ask you both this
question just for the audience listening.
You said something I was like, you know, sometimes, sometimes
we're too inside baseball on the show.
And because we have a range of entry level cooks and, yeah,
owners listening for the person who's never heard the
expression. Dogs on the menu.
Oh, yeah. Can you break that down?
What are you looking for? Yeah.
Like how and when we're talking menu engineering.
Yeah. Can you can you break down a dog
on the menu? Can.
I can I Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, sorry.
Lee Maiman, he's hyped. Up, man, I'm like.
You had that, you had that Celsius.
So you know, so you know, like my, my job as a chef is not just
drive really good dishes on the menu, but look at the menu mix
and we categorize them. You know, what sells really good
and has a high profitability is what you want at least 50% of
your menu. You know that roasted chicken
dish, OK, cost you $4.00 to put on the plate, but you're selling
it for 2627. You know it's garnished up
nicely. Then you want to have some of
your loss leaders, right? Like that are you know, people
come for it. You know, whether it's like we
do this honey roll dish. It's a, it's a, a mash up
between a Hawaiian style roll with a Parker House roll.
And we do it at our steakhouse concepts.
We, we sell it for 8 bucks. We can easily get 15 for it,
right? But it's the reason why people
come to the restaurant, right? Then you have the dogs on your
menu that don't serve a purpose. High cost, lots of prep.
For example, we put tater tots on the menu.
I wanted to do them fancy. It's a steakhouse, so we do
tater tot Creme fresh caviar. They are a bitch to prep.
OK. Each one is hand molded.
After you roast the potato, you shred it down, you cook duck fat
with shallots, you make your mix and then each one is hand formed
into a ring mold. OK.
And then each one is breaded just on each side.
So it literally takes 6 hours to prep a full batch.
Craziness, right? People look at it, they're like,
I'm paying $18.00 for tater tots.
It's a dog, OK? It's not doing anything on your
me, actually, it's pissing people off, right?
And that's what. And it's and it's and it's a low
it's, it's ruining the cook that has to fucking work on it for
six hours and say, damn it, we could.
Yeah, I'm making these. We don't even sell them.
I'm throwing them away again. Exactly.
And so, you know, it's, it's, it's, I always say like, it's
the, it's a fried calamari effect, right.
I, I went through my career, I was like, I'm never putting
fried calamari in the menu because I worked at, you know, I
worked at Carrabba's for a day, you know, as like a stage
because they were paying a lot of money.
This is one of our first jobs. Was that like Macaroni Grill,
you know, like, and I went to Carrabba's, they were paying
$4.00 more per hour. And I know why.
Because nobody wanted to work the damn calamari station.
They had a calamari fryer. I fried calamari's for 8 hours
straight. I hated it, you know, hated it.
And so I said to myself, like, I'm never putting calamari on
the menu, right? But again, this is a low cost,
high profit item, you know, and that's what makes or break a it
makes or breaks a business. I mean muscles is a perfect
example. Muscles, Yeah, another great
example. Yeah.
You know, when I was in the Hamptons in New York, 2014, we
would buy £50, you know, 50 to, we would go through, you know,
I'm sorry, not 52150 to 500 lbs of muscles every weekend.
And I mean, we, I hate, I never wanted to eat muscles, you know,
I just, I hate them. I've seen them so much.
Same thing with oysters, you know, but it's one of those
things that people love and they'll pay whatever.
They don't care how much they're paying for an oyster, you know,
because they know that they can't go to the grocery store
and get the same quality. 100% yeah.
And I think, and, and this is where and I'll go back to
culinary school and I want, I just want to talk about this
because what they're teaching in culinary schools nowadays is not
relevant to running a restaurant or being in a restaurant now.
Like there, so many things have changed after COVID, like not
only the cost of goods, but the way the AI is taking over the
restaurant industry. If you're not using AI in your
restaurant right now, you're behind the times.
Yeah, give me an example because I I haven't been in a restaurant
in a while. Yeah, So here's here's a great
example answering the phones. Yeah, we, we nobody has time to
answer phones. You remember you would have a
Hostess scheduled there because labor was labor was lower.
But unless you're in a hotel, we don't have a Hostess, right.
Like I'm not scheduling a Hostess.
Yeah, not, but not till 30 minutes before we open. 100%
yeah, you're cutting them. Early too.
So now all these restaurants are using, they're defaulting to
slang, AI or whatever, whatever the AI voice in, and it's pretty
close to human. Like.
It's so close also with accounting AI with accounting,
right? I have, you know, I have a
system that tells me what's fluctuating in price and you
know, the AI will, you know, source.
Can you tell us what system it is?
You know. They're not paying us, but they
should. Yeah, the, the, the system that
we, I used to use was Plate IQ and they, they merged with
another company and I forgot what it was, but it was like,
it's like, you know, on the back end what they do is they'll give
you a graph of like what prices have fluctuated.
But then this is the thing, they source it on the web of where
what it should be to make sure that your purveyor is not.
You're keeping them honest. Yes, and and here's the thing
with web restaurant, like, I hate to say it, but it's
becoming Amazon, you know, it's becoming, it's becoming a
conglomerate. And I love it because, you know,
The thing is, yeah, the thing. And then also I'll say Chachi
BT. You know, I freaking love Chachi
BT and I go deep. No, not yet.
But I also want to try perplexity as well.
But like The thing is, it's like now when I do catering, I can
dial in recipes by using Baker percentage and I used like and
it's like OK, like good example. I had AI had a party with BBQ
pork and brisket and I'm like, OK, I want to account for this
and I'm talking to chat and it's giving me scaled recipes from my
recipe book, right? Because it's really hard to
take. It's really hard to take BBQ
sauce and then account for four oz per portion.
You know what I mean? And then do the ordering.
You could do the math, but it's not always, but it's a lot
easier. You waste a lot less time in the
kitchen on the computer. Yeah, I'll tell you what I did
for people listening is I, I, for people that have been
listening to the show, they know I love AI.
Yeah, I've been talking about AI since day one yeah like I think
I wrote literally the first AI cookbook ever.
Nice, Cuz I as soon as it came out I wrote it like 3 days
later. Nice when ChatGPT came out in
November 2292 or whatever. But so I started using clod the
other day because you know all over social media like clod
clock. What is this?
So I got on Clod and I've had it for about a week and I pay for
the, you know, the, the pro version.
And while I'm here, Claude is working on my computer updating
SEO for my website on every podcast.
Stop. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
But I'm just here like I said, do this.
Yeah. And I said, can you give me
access to to the backup? Sure.
So I connected it and then it says do you like it in this
style? Yep, Yep.
Great. I'll be back in a few hours and
you'll it'll, I'll. Have now it's doing it.
And it's just working on my website.
Yeah, and that's the thing, it speeds up workflow like crazy.
Yeah. And what I'm saying taking
taking those mundane tasks off your plate so you can focus some
of the things. Let me I'll tell you, I got one
up on both of y'all ChatGPT calls me chef.
OK, that's how much I. Use it because.
Like for example, if I do I in in kitchens, my recipes don't
have instructions. If you don't know how to make a
vinaigrette properly, you shouldn't be working in the
kitchen. But guess what?
Just like you were talking about Thomas Keller, If you don't have
a system and you don't breakdown, I've learned the hard
way by not breaking down steps to recipes to the T.
This is exactly the measurement. I only use grams because you can
do you. Do percentages too.
A percent? Absolutely.
With, you know, baking and pastry.
Baking and pastry, you use percentages.
Sauces, vinaigrettes, like percentages are the way to go.
Listen, ratios will set you free.
Was it Alex TUPE? Alex I love it he ratios.
And listen, Alex TUPE, he's one of my superheroes too, because
he doesn't know this, but I wanted to.
I wanted to. And I can't find it, but I found
one of his recipe books, Adelinea on the pastry station
in the bottom underneath where the Spoonbane is.
And and I can't find it anywhere.
And I'm so frustrated because like, dude, I was reading.
I was like in all these. Yeah, Oh yeah.
Oh yeah, 100. Percent yeah, it's mine.
Yeah. But it was like and it was all
worn down and it but it said Alex Stupeck on the on the on
the front. And so that's when I learned
about Alex Stupeck like and I just went down.
I mean, he is such a like and people don't know Alex Stupeck
was the like I would say the one of the O GS along with Jordan
Khan Adelinea as a pastry chef, right?
And you know, I think he changed the game as far like I think
everybody hydrochlorides. Yeah, and and the flexible
chocolate. I took that recipe.
I got the OG recipe but like I've used that many of times and
I just have to say mad respect to.
And he's funny as shit. Yeah, it's.
Hilarious, yeah. He's funny as shit.
For people that don't know, right now, both of you are on
Top Chef. Yeah, against each other.
And by the way, obviously we're not gonna spoil it for anybody,
but I'll tell you what I would do if I was the if I was running
Top Chef and Top Chef. If you're listening, call me.
I'll tell you exactly. Like I know what the people
want. Yeah, this is the finale.
If I'm running Top Chef, I'm setting it up.
So you guys are battling right at the finale.
I'm not saying that's what's gonna happen, but that's what
I'm doing. We can all speculate, right?
We can. Speculate, that's what.
That's for sure. I'm gonna write, and if that's
not the case, you rest assured they will be hearing from me.
Yeah, that's funny. That's awesome.
No. And you know, the listen, my
only competitor that I was worried about, that I am worried
about is Brandon. Because he knows me in and out,
and I know him in. And out he knows me like there's
no like there's no other person that knows each other better
than us. How do you get in his head
during during the during? I guess you can't.
Talk to that, right. You know, we we can talk a
little bit about it. Like I, we are both competitive
in different ways, right? Yeah.
Like my I know that if we had a pastry challenge.
He's cooking. Fucking me up, man.
There is nothing because like I went for my bachelor's, he went
for a pastry and double associates and I made, I blasted
him for years. I'm like, dude, you're never
going to do that. Every time I needed help on a
pastry recipe, I'd call him like, hey man, can you just
review? Especially when I learned
sourdough. Once I learned sourdough like it
was getting, I went down the rabbit hole.
Yeah, there was a like if, if we have a sourdough competition or
bread baking or any pastry related.
Cooked. I'm cooked, you know?
I'm like, there's only, and there's only one way to fight to
the death. Because at the end of the day,
man, like everything you see is real on Top Chef.
It's not, it's not scripted. They, you know, they, they, they
don't tell you anything on purpose.
It's real live emotions. Yeah.
And you were put into pressure situations that, you know, it's
sink or swim. It's raw talent.
Yeah. The.
Top show's been around for, I mean, quite some time and I feel
like there's still. We're on Season 23.
There's there's, there's still kind of the gold standard
culinary competition. Yeah, for now.
For now. For now, there's gonna actually.
Hey. I saw, listen, I was watching.
Yeah, shots fired. It's it's funny, like I, you
know, we, I don't watch cooking shows, you know, and, and, and
the reason why, like, you know, everybody asks me, Oh, did you
see the bear? Oh, did you see this?
You know this? Yes, chef, did you see the
tournament of the chat? I'm like, I don't watch these
because it's too stressful for me.
You know, I, I deal with it all day.
I'm putting on fires all day, you know, and so, you know,
going into competing against my brother there was like I knew.
So basically you you can memorize recipes, but you can't
write anything down, which is to to even the playing field out
Yeah, which is fair. The only only recipe I memorize
pastry recipes. That's it Just you know, on
case, right? Yeah, I can cook because when I
do, when I R&D, when I R&D recipes, I'm R&D ING and I'm
going through the process and I'm writing things down.
I'm never I'm never like, oh, let me go to marthastewart.com
and get this volute recipe and then follow this recipe and make
tweaks to it. Right, right.
I'm I'm freestyle. I'm like, how does this feel?
How does this taste? How does this look?
You know, and then so I so I'm very good in that environment.
And also, I've been on, you know, I've been on Chops, I've
been on Bobby Flay, so I know. That he's he likes the.
TV See, I was the opposite, yeah.
He never wanted to be on TV, you know, and I, and I like my first
debut was when I was like 22 years old, I was on Gary across
the Caribbean, which is Gary Rose is a a celebrity chef in
the UK and that was my first exposure to like national TV in
the UK and you know, like the big production and all this
other stuff. And we're on a Caribbean island.
They flew me off dude. He.
He like begged me to come on Bobby, Bobby Flay.
I'm like, dude, I'm just not interested, man.
Like I don't want to do it. I don't want to make a club
sandwich. But it's funny because like now
that I own my own businesses, I have my own brand, it's
different. Exposures, exposures,
everything. Like, I don't care what anybody
says. And I I do blame myself.
But Brandon tried to get me on the social trend for so long.
And I thought I was so dumb. I was like, I'm not.
I ain't got time. I'm, I'm a real chef.
Like, I have a real job. You know?
I don't have time to, like, post a cooking video about how to
make a mango sorbet. Like, I got to teach my staff
how to do these things. Yeah, but now you know that.
I see. He bullied them, he I bullied
them into it. And not only that, but like,
because everybody thinks that I'm him.
Like, they're like, oh, I watched the B Bobby Flay
episode. They'll blow up his comment
section. I just saw you on Food Network
Canada, yada. But seeing people know him more
than they know me, Yeah. When, Like, even.
And you were the one that was doing all the TV.
'S exactly, but they see him on TikTok, they see him on
Instagram. They ask me, Hey, aren't you the
like I'm, I'm random random food hall in Philadelphia and this
I'm, I'm ordering, you know, a Taco from this, this food truck
and this guy's staring at me and I'm like, are.
You good bro? He's OK.
He's like, do you own Ember? Are you, are you?
Do you live in Montana? And I'm like, no, actually,
that's my twin brother, you know, and a FaceTime Brian,
like, look for twins. And it's cool interaction, but
this is a young kid who is probably his first or second
job. Yeah.
Well, and I'll say this, it's super important if you're a chef
out there, if you're a young cook, start creating content.
You see, whether you like it or not, you.
Probably have enough in your phone.
Already. Yeah, exactly just.
And The thing is, is now it's start.
Good example. I'm going to use Ryder, for
example. Ryder, you know, when, when we
first, so when we first opened Ember, I knew I wanted a
mediographer and I wanted editing and we like we would
document the process. And I'm like, social media is so
important. You know how hard it is to put
that in the pro forma. Pro forma is like a a business
plan for people that don't know. But like we're in the budget.
Yeah, but it's like I had to sacrifice an hourly and a sous
chef for that body, right? But it was so important because
we grew in the first six months, we grew Ember to over, you know,
200,000 followers on Instagram and we were pumping via social
media. And like the, the reality is, is
it's so important nowadays. And now it's super important
that you have that. Because what I realized in 2020,
when I started, when I, when I, when COVID hit, I had zero, I
had nothing, no social problem, nothing.
And, and, and, and so for me it was like, OK, so like if the
whole world were to shut down, I don't have anything.
I have nothing. And so that's when that's when
chef authorized was born, right? And I was doing duets and I, you
know, and I was like, you know, just on TikTok and like, you
know, the, the, the biggest thing for me was like, I almost
gave up. I was like, this is stupid.
I can't believe it. Like what am I doing?
And also I was dogging him on the side.
I'm like bro they no way pay attention to your 30 view video
like all the time it takes you to do that and set it up and
then. How do you handle the trolls?
That's a that's a goal. Yeah.
So, you know, that's a great question.
And honestly, now it's you get to a certain point where you
have a threshold and it's like, listen, I don't know this guy,
they don't know me. But like, thank you for with the
comment because it, it adds to the algorithm.
But also like before, I used to take the comments really
personally, you know, but now it's like it's dirt over the
show. You ain't paying my bills,
motherfucker. You know what I mean?
Like you have 0 input in my life.
But I will say that it's super important.
You need to if you're if you don't have any haters, you ain't
working hard. Enough you won't you won't get
the explosion, but or the virality.
But it's funny because I actually just had AI had a video
that surpassed a million. Yeah and I had never, you know,
because I told him I was like, hey, I got 50,000 views.
I went viral. He's like, bro, you ain't go
viral unless you get at least a half a million.
And I'm so that was I strive for that.
But finally I broke it and it was a tomahawk.
Well done. But it's all about how the voice
over, it's all about the hook. So I'm like, hey, I never
thought of my career that I would cook a tomahawk.
Well done. It's a 40 oz piece of meat.
Early in my career, I would have said no.
I would have said no. Order the chicken.
Order the salmon. But I'm not, I'm not cooking for
my ego. I'm cooking for the guests, what
I want to say, what I want, you know, let me circle back because
for the young cook and the young, young like chef, like
before, when I was working in the kitchen, cell phones were
not accepted. You cannot and you still have to
be discreet. Like you have to ask permission
because there's a certain time and place.
But I will say shout out to Ryder Mansky.
He, you know, he started with me, but a lot of people don't
know this, but like Ryder started with me back back in the
day, like. What's his Instagram?
Handle it's I forgot but it's it should be Manski.
I think it's R Mansky or something.
Like that, he does a great job. Yeah, yeah.
But The thing is, is when he first started with me, I posted
on TikTok and I said, hey, I'm looking for some cooks.
He started with with me when we had the burger restaurants.
So he had been working with me for 2 1/2 years before he
started posting on IG. But I forced him to do it,
right? I'm like, listen, the
videographer's here. Like you want to be on social
media, you need to start posting.
And I'm like, if you would have been posting two years ago, you
know, we would have, you'd be viral right now.
But now it's like, so he's just started posting.
We started putting him on the ember page and like he has his
own social media presence now. And I think that's so important
for the young cooks and the young chefs, like you can't just
put all your eggs in one basket. Like you have got to create a
personal brand for yourself if that's what you if, if social
media is what you want to do. But it doesn't happen overnight.
It takes years and building a community in today's.
World, it's all brand. Yeah, it's all brand.
And I I know that as Chef's PSA. Like there's a reason it's
called Chef's PSA and not Andre's podcast. 100%, yeah.
And, and and that's the most important thing.
And I will say this, and I don't, you know, if you have a
social media presence as a chef and you go to a new restaurant
and you can drive revenue and put butts in seats, it will
change the ownership perspective, right?
And so I think like Ember would not be what it is right now if I
didn't have a social media presence.
Like people come in, they look at it like ATV set, right?
I'm like, Hey, this is where we film, blah, blah, blah.
But it's, it's funny, 'cause I'm a little bit more animated when
I'm posting on social because you have to be right?
Like you have to like I put on a character, right?
It's like, OK, hey, look at the, you know, like and, you know,
it's just. You know one of those, it's
going to get him to stop. Yeah, stop the scroll, yeah.
And you know, it's, it's funny because a lot of people don't
know this, but this is insider information.
When we built the kitchen at Ember, I had the lights set up
like studio lights. That's why it's super bright.
I could be filming in there at 12:00 at night or 4:00 in the
morning. It doesn't matter.
It's always the same set. And I think the biggest thing
for me, when I was learning about videography and editing
and all that, like I thought like when I was in California, I
thought, OK, so the sun's not up, so I'm not going to film
today. Like, dude, that was so stupid.
But if you are, don't feel comfortable with editing videos.
If you don't feel comfortable with shooting videos.
Get it on a line item on the PNL.
Trust me, it's important. Put it on the PNL.
Yeah, I would, I would say that I would argue that social is
used more as a search engine these days than it was before.
Yeah. So, you know, and this is
another hot take that I wouldn't say, like as a chef, you know,
seeing these, the viral content of some of these dishes drives
me fucking crazy. You know, 'cause I'm like, I bet
you that tastes like dog shit, you know, for example, oh, this
is how you cook a steak. Like, and I see, I see these
home cooks like, listen, nothing against home cooks.
Do your thing but. You.
You know, you're cooking, pretending that you're a chef,
dude. It irks.
You're talking about talk about haters.
Like I want to be haters up in their comments because I'm like,
you didn't season that steak. You didn't see, like, how many
people cooked. Yeah, but let's let's be honest.
I'm not wearing a chef coat in my kitchen at my house.
No, no, no. Who's?
Your favorite creator? My favorite creator?
Yeah. Who do you like to watch?
I love, I love straight up Joshua Wiseman is one of my he's
cool people, man. And like, honestly, I I his
cookbook is legit another favorite creative.
I love Max the meat guy. I love Guga.
They're all my friends. Matt Gork, Gork BBQ.
I love all the BBQ guys. So Kendrick four O 6 TFTI, you
know all we kind of like, you know I don't.
Say we is there one that you like?
Maybe is an acquired taste that you're like, I really like this
one, a lot of people might. I really like this. 1 my good
friend Albert Kane cook and he's, but he's smart.
Like we started together. We have a we have a collab that
we did back in like 2022 or 2021, but he just blew up.
But like he does skits now, but like the food that he was doing,
like, and he was right. He's like, I'm not, I'm doing
food for the gram. I'm not doing like you're
wasting time doing Michelin level stuff.
And he was right. He was 100% right.
And like, and I'm going to say this and his video editing was
fantastic. Yeah, and I'm going to say this
too. Like I got a video on
Quinnelling or Rocher or whatever you want to call it,
but you know, I know it's not going to do well, but it's it,
it hits that chef community and that's kind of what I want, that
base. I don't charge my people
anything, you know what I mean? Like I just want to build the
community. Like it's super important for me
to do things like that, like chefy videos, because I think
it's OK to post on social media. And I think as a chef, you got
to put your feelings aside, your ego aside, and just start
posting, documenting the process.
And I will say the food, the stupid food does better than the
Michelin food. 1000% here's something and, and I'm I'm I'm
going to put a pin in that 'cause I want to hear what you
have to say 'cause I also want to ask you, you're creator, but
I'm going to share this with you 'cause I think the audience
would appreciate it. I have a friend that books guest
chef dinners. That's their job.
They book guest chef dinners from Michelin to James Beard to
award-winning chefs, chefs on TV and also books content creators
as well cookbook authors who are millions of followers on social
media. Yeah, the award-winning chef.
A lot of times they have to give away tickets because they can't
fill a room. The content creator sells out in
minutes. Yes, see a. 100% and it doesn't
even matter at that point what the menu is.
Right. And it and it's not like they're
doing like like crazy burger or whatever.
Yeah, and, and look, and here's a great example of that, like
Salt Hank, right? He is a content creator out of
the Bay Area. I knew him a long time ago.
And I said he was opening a restaurant.
Like, hey, if you need any help with anything, you just let me
know. But I will say this, he fucking
nailed it. His restaurant is packed.
OK, line out the door, He serves one item, and he has a chef in
there. But I'm gonna tell you right
now, like, you know, this is all the chefs that have put in all
this work. This is what you're up against.
One of my favorite creators right now and I'm, I'm curious
to know yours and I wish I knew her name, but she's just fucking
trolling everyone. Like today I'm gonna show you
how to fucking make something that I'm gonna eat it out of my
shoe. I never seen her.
Oh, she's great. And so like today I'm making a
tiramisu and I'm serving it out of a a fucking claw machine.
Yeah, but, you know, this is you have to be entertaining.
And I learned. I learned the hard.
I learned the hard way and like, you know, like there's like, and
you're 100% right, that guy's 100% right.
You can have a creator come and you know, they have millions of
followers or whatever. And like they'll, they'll book a
dinner, they'll sell out. And also these cookbooks, like
they can put up a cookbook just like that.
And guess what? Like you can buy it?
You could have a decorated resume and you know, a good
example is with the brand deals. You know, like with the brand
deals, I like I'm, I'm going to be honest, like there is another
chef out there. We both have Don partnerships,
but you know, they like, they're too chefy.
Here, here's my message to chefs that are listening right now.
If you want those content creators to stop fucking taking
your lunch, Bunny, put out content.
Yeah, shut the fuck up and put out.
Just do it. Yeah, Yeah, because if not,
they're going to keep taking your lunch.
Bunny 100% he. Told me that from the beginning.
He's like just shut up and post. Just shut up and post.
And that's kind of like, you know, my, my, I'll spend a whole
day filming a recipe. I'm like a crab cake, right?
But the crab cake has a remoulade.
It has a slaw. You know, you're making the crab
cake from from scratch. You're making the aioli from
scratch. OK 14 sub recipes right 100
views nobody cares I post a video on how to demo a pineapple
OK 50K right how to how to Juliana pepper yeah 3040 K You
know it's because your your content it's all about who's
consuming the content and the. Target as as in again using
inside baseball terms, sometimes low IQ does better than high A.
100%, yeah, yeah. Yeah, is there a creator that
you'd like to watch? I don't know, you know, to be
honest, I don't. There's nobody that pops right
off my mind. Is there is there one that
you're sharing often like oh, this is this is funny or do I
share with? I only share ones that I think
are good with with you. Yeah, I and it's and you know,
I, I don't get trapped in the consuming content.
I look at the trends, but also like I will say, there are some
creators out there that are there.
This is their full time job and they are way ahead of the game,
right? Like if anybody want to do a
chef podcast right now, they're going to have to, they're going
to have to fucking put in so much work, you know, and.
This is episode like 190, yeah. Good.
Luck I do for cooking. I do like Sad Poppy.
He just changed his life. Sad Poppy.
Yeah, I do like his cooking because his like and like Matt,
the line cook. What's his name?
Line cook. Matt.
Matt just the line cook or something like that.
I don't know. But shout out to Matt.
Just shout out to Matt. Yeah.
So hey. So this is important when you do
have a social media handle, make sure it is something that people
remember and it's same across all platforms.
Yeah, This is why it's Chef's PSA.
Yeah, fucking easy to remember. Yeah.
Public service announcement. Yeah, 100%, yeah.
Trademark, by the way, if anyone's thinking of stealing.
Yeah. OK, so before we wrap up.
What did you put a pin in earlier?
I forgot that. About The Who your favorite?
Contact guy was yeah. I normally do wrap up questions,
but I'm gonna ask you both the same question and I wanna see
different opinions. Sure, yeah, if you have a I'm
gonna start with you. Sure.
If you have a salt in the kitchen, your go to all-purpose
workhorse salt. What is it?
Kosher. Kosher.
Red Diamond. Red Diamond.
Yeah, yeah, same red diamond crystal.
Yeah, with Diamond Crystal, we use Morton's on top on Top Chef
and it was just like very like I've never like it's just not,
it's a killer. No, no, it's it's just too salt.
Like there's there's nuances to different levels.
Dissolves. Yeah, it takes longer to
dissolve. So you'll you'll be making
something, you'll taste it. It's fine.
And then it's just like with recipes like you, the tomato
this week is not going to be the same as next week.
The lettuce this week is going to be different.
Like there's so many like carrots, for example.
I got a carrot dish on the menu right now.
They are super sweet, but it's because the field was iced over,
right. It's like, and that's what chefs
the recipe. This is a Thomas color thing.
The recipe is just a guideline. You, as the cook, put the soul
in the. Recipe 100.
Percent and and and that's so important and I think that's
what separates Ember food from everywhere else in the
Bitterroot Valley not to not to, you know you know, subtle shout
out but like, that was a gentle flex.
Yeah, but but you know, like, and that's what I try to tell
people like this asparagus that we're getting in the spring is
only available for two weeks. That's it.
This is a time and place right now and it's just super
important when you know. Same thing with salt, like in
recipes. If it's a different brand of
salt, restructure the recipe trust.
Right, right, right. I had to cook you sea salt, the
fine sea salt in place of kosher salt and it would just crush
this. Rest no, it's a It's a kitchen
killer. What's your plate wipe?
Oh easy. So I like linen likes and I roll
them up and then I use a little bit of vinegar and also water.
I learned that from millennia and it was great.
And these plate wipes got to be rolled tight and I only need 4
and. For the whole night.
For the whole night, yeah, yeah, well, we, we put a clean plate,
yeah, so. I'll say I use sports towels.
Yeah. And again, I don't, I don't like
the roll. I actually we we cut them into
about, you know, 2 by 2 and squares.
Yeah. So like chick towels or chick
towels, Yeah. Yep.
And then, and then we're using one per plate, you know, and
we're tossing. It what?
What do we use? Vinegar, Vodka.
Just water. Just water.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK.
Vinegar, but it can't be too wet.
It has to be just the right amount of water.
Like you can't. Well that's why I like the linen
light cuz you you roll it up and then you you squeeze it one time
like this and then put it in a Yukumi pan so it fits perfectly.
We used to use vodka and I remember once I caught the cooks
chewing on like they were chewing on.
Italian. That's desperation, right?
Yeah. What's your, What's your?
Of course there's gonna be nuance, and of course there's
gonna be exceptions to the rule, but in general, what's your
finishing acid go to? Finishing acid, go to lime, you
know, yeah, I feel I feel lemon is great as well.
But you know, that that was another thing that, you know, my
style of cooking is, you know, citrus, spices, you know, not so
heavy. You know, I like interesting
flavors, but I'm always finishing with a little acidity.
And it's it's either a squeeze, a lime or a lime zest is my go
to. And also I oversee a bunch of
Mexican restaurants. So, you know, it's a it's a
different level. You know, it's a differently
mole. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know Limon Verde. What about you?
What's? Your pension assets so, so I'm a
big fan of having both I'll have like I really love vinegars and
I like homemade vinegars as well but The thing is is for me
especially at number right now 'cause I'm kind of like on the
other side of the Expo pass I'll bring everything like seasoned
to perfection. But I, I think what a lot of
people need on the Expo station, which they don't have is like a
squirt bottle of water, like, because you know, in my steam
well, and like this trick and, and some people might disagree
because it's plastic, but in the steam well, I keep the sauce in
the deli cup, but sometimes it reduces.
We've tried to hold it 135. But people need to understand
that sauces change every single day.
Yep, you know, and, and you, you like when they say, good
example. I just taught my new cook.
Lucky shout out, lucky he, you know, I was like, look, the
burblock's not going to be the same today.
Is that can we can we, can I make a public service now and
then go for it. Why the hell was I throwing out
Burblonc every day? It's not necessary.
Man. With the cost of butter now in
this economy, in this economy, bro, we don't need, we don't
need to make fresh Burblonc every day.
I'll die on that hill. No, but you do you make the base
and then with butter into it every day or do you make the
full sauce? No, I used to it.
I you OK? Shout out some people.
I hate this but I use I make a stable base right with xanthan
with xanthan and then I season that base for what I need in a
deli cup. So I make my batch for the week
and then when I'm reheating. It.
I didn't know that. When I, when I reheat it, I let
it split, I buzz it and then I'm hitting it with salt, a little
bit of lemon and then I hit the fish with lemon before it goes
out. But you know, the, the reality
is sauces are sexy and you know, like our bacon jam, for example,
that bitch ain't going nowhere. It's the same flavor every
single time. But when you have butter based
sauces or you know, wine based sauces, for example, fat, red
wine, Demi, gloss, whatever it is like it's not going to be as
vibrant as it was day one. The second day it's different
than the first day you have. Just a little squeeze bottle of
water on your station. Well, so sometimes if the water
like if like the sauce is, you know, it just it it reduces too
much, it gets too thick sometimes a little hot water
just to just to make it so it's nice in that pay and not like a
clunk on the plate, right. Good example.
Bacon jam is a perfect example of that.
When bacon jam is like where you could quinell it, it's hard for
the guests to really wrap their head around on the pork dish
that we have. So I like to thin it out just a
little bit, but you don't want to add those ingredients because
it's already concentrated. So a little squirt of water,
yeah, it makes a huge difference.
Ambro, Montana really changed. You, you, you don't use Flesh
Bird Blanc every day. No.
Hell no. No.
Yeah, I. Never thought I would hear a
lot. Of words come out of hey, hey, I
pay for the motherfucking groceries.
Ain't nothing wrong with that bird Blanc dude.
Yeah, that bird dude. Butter.
Butter like. Going from going from, you know,
chef to operator, yeah, you know.
It's a different. World.
You looking at every penny, you know, dude, he told me.
Like he's like, yeah, during the season we turn off all the
fridges. We only have one fridge.
We're consolidated. Oh, my damn, bro.
You you bootstrapping it, You know?
Yeah. Well, listen, what's your money?
Let me tell you something. Every dollar counts.
I don't care what anybody says. If you're, if you're managing a
restaurant for somebody else, you know, listen, like there's
some health standards that need to be followed.
But like, you know, good example, I have 3 fridges in
Ember. I got two of them shut down
right now. We're using one.
Yeah. You know, I'm looking at the
electricity bill. Yeah.
And I'm like, OK, do we really
need 7 Slim Jim trash cans in the kitchen?
No, I just need 2. Right.
And. When do you throw away the
trash? When it's full.
Yeah, well, right, dude, That's right, dude, I'm telling you
like 1. And like, you know, and I hate
to say it, but supplies, you know, supplies are so out of
control. Crazy.
Of it like gloves, trash bags. For me, it's the chemicals,
right? So like the chemicals are just
what's what's killing. I'm like damn, do I really need
like, 'cause I use Ecolab, which is I shouldn't shut him out, but
I, you know, it's. Just got rid of his dishwasher
everything man. He's like if it's hooks are
washing, but listen. I used Don, Yeah.
He's done great, the manual pot and pan, but like I, I can't
tell you enough, like all of that matters, man.
When you see that, when you see that PNL statement or like you
know, you do your mid mid month check like chefs.
You don't need to see the end of the month PNL to know your
numbers. You place the order, OK, you can
see your total sales. You can you can look at your
prime cost. You can do it.
Don't make excuses. Learn how to manage the fucking
business because nothing else matters except for profit.
You live and die daily. Yeah, and that's what I'm
saying. It doesn't matter what type of
chicken, steak you can make you the like profit is the only
thing that matters, Man, I I don't care what anybody says.
Or else you don't have a restaurant.
And if you are not? If you are not, you know,
putting money in that owner's pocket, guess what?
He's going to look, he or she is going to look at every single
line item and they're going to start dissecting your operation
and it's 100% they will find that money.
So it's just super important a lot.
I grew up as a chef like, oh, the food is the most important,
this is the most important, blah, blah, blah.
No, you know what is occupancy, but.
But to the chef it is. Yes.
To the chef it is. It is the most important when
you're in that position. Yeah, when you're in the next
position. Yeah, it's.
It's a different. You're looking at efficiency,
yeah. 2nd to last question, if you had to put 4 chefs on Mount
Rushmore, who's who's your 4 chefs?
And then I'll ask you, OK. OK, this is a good one.
So I got it. I tend to lean more towards the
celebrity chef. So Emeril Lagasse was who got me
into cooking. Brandon was like, hey, watch
this show. And I watched Emeril Lagasse
religiously because not only was he fun, he made cooking fun, but
also he was like a little bit of an entertainer.
That was that was that. I'd say that's my first one.
Second one would have to be, Oh, this is tough, man, this is
tough. I would have to say Bobby Flay.
And I know I'm I know I'm going to pay for this.
I know The thing is that I know, but again, I grew up where I
look towards celebrity chefs and that's why I wanted to do TV
because I wanted to do that, you know, but I also wanted to cook
really good. And then, of course, you're a
Michelin star. So I would say Grant a chats,
you know, and also Thomas Keller, you know, and they
shouldn't be on the same. But if I had to choose, Thomas
Keller would be first. And then Grant took what he
learned from Thomas Keller and completely blew up the culinary.
Game. So Emeril, Grant, Thomas, Bobby.
Yeah, yeah. So for me, it's a little bit
different, but I'm going to go 4 to 1.
Joshua Skeens, he's one of my favorite chefs in the United
States. I really wish we could have
worked longer, but you know, small little story and I won't
go too long, but I knew he has the palette of a fucking
magician. And we were doing these tastings
for him and he tasted the sauce, right?
And he's like, the garlic is sprouted in the sauce.
And I'm like, what are you talking about, Jeff?
And then and I'm like, I'm like, he's like, he's like, it's go
check the garlic. I think it's sprouted.
And I mean, there is no chance on this God's green earth that
anybody would know like he did. He wasn't there for the
Miesenplas. I'm like Damien, Go.
Check. Go grab super Taser.
He, he, he's like Chef. It's, it's just like a little
sprouted and I'm like, fuck yeah.
And so that blew my mind. Well, anyway, the conversations
that we had, we've now I think we still have unfinished
business. That's number four for sure.
Grant hacketts #3 for sure. You know, he's just, he was
like, I read the linear book and I, you know, I followed him for
a long time. Great chef awesome story all the
above for on Adria is going to be #2 for me because you know I
went on this molecular tear where everything was foam and
this and that and like you asked me yeah listen you, you asked me
anything about hydros and I got. You, bro, you know, like I got,
I got to switch Bobby for Jose Andreas, Yeah.
Dang. Nice.
Yeah, yeah, my bad. I totally missed.
Yeah, sorry, Bobby. Well.
You're. Sorry, Bobby.
Yeah, and then I think the most influential chef for me.
Wait, so I did. I did.
So I have Joshua skins Grenakitz that I do a number then for on
Audria right, because him and the Ebony was it right it's.
Just as what it is, yeah. And then the number one spot,
I'm gonna have to split between Alan Ducas and Joe Rochon, but
I'm gonna lean. I had a conversation with some
of the other day that I was like, I split them as well.
Yeah, yeah, cuz like, cuz like for me, they were just so, so a
lot of people don't know this, but I went to go work at Joel
Rochon. It went, it was the reason why I
went to Vegas and three mission started.
Yeah and my background check didn't go through whatever MGM
Grand was cuz I didn't claim my tinted windows or whatever.
But you know that that for me was, you know, Joel Roche, like
doing all that research and going down the rabbit hole, you
know, was was very influential for me for my fine dining
career. I do want to say honorable
mention Thomas Keller. I love like French Laundry
changed my life, man, That book changed my life, that book.
Changed my life I I I often say is like Thomas Keller will
probably go down in. In history as one of the.
Greatest American chef 100%. I don't.
I don't know if anyone could compete with that title.
Yeah, in the United. States will I hire any of a
stat? No.
Right, right. And that's no disrespect, but
like, it's just. I think the greatest American
fine dining chef, yeah. You know, yeah, yeah.
Is important. Where can for people that want
to follow along go to your restaurants or follow you on
social media? Or can people find you?
So chef authorized across all platforms and my restaurants are
in Hamilton, Mt, the Bitterroot Valley.
We're out in the sticks. But if you're if you like
hiking, hunting or skiing and you ever find yourself in
Missoula, Mt, come on down, come.
On down there, brother. The last best place in the
United States. You know, there's one thing I
love about Montana. Freedom.
So I'm Chef Jonathan Dearden across all platforms.
I'm actually based in DCI oversee need hospitality and
design as a corporate chef. So we have, we're going to
actually have about 13 restaurants here.
Most of them are in DC, but we have two in Virginia Beach and
one in Philly. So yeah, I, I stay busy, but if
you ever, you know, reach out and we'll get you hooked up if
you're in the DC area or Philly or Virginia Beach.
And on the current season of Top Chef.
Yes, season 23 make sure you watch us battle it out yeah,
watch us battle it out. It's going to be look the I'm
I'm so excited to watch and see what made it in the edits,
because you know we're we're we're filming all day.
We are miked up all day. Don't say you can't talk about
the edits bro. Well, because we, well, we can
talk about what we were there, we experienced it, but what's
going to be on? OK, there's a process.
Well, we'll find out when all when all the the 20 lawyers that
are at Bravo. One thing, one thing, I'd say.
Cease and desist. One thing I will tell you is
that Brandon and I went, we went in with the intention of going
at each other's throats, you know, and that's because we have
something to. Prove here yeah, yeah, you know
we. Have something to prove?
So TuneIn on Peak streaming on Peacock and also on Bravo.
Awesome. Thank you, Jensen.
Yeah, thank you. It was a pleasure.
All right, that's the show. If you liked it, make sure you
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