If we didn't get a start, it was going to be motivation for us to
get a start. If we did get a start, I was
going to make sure that the team understood that that start
doesn't make us better than anyone, but we have more
responsibility than anyone. Hello chefs.
This is Chefs PSA and I'm your host Andre Natera.
Today I'm joined by Chef Emmanuel Chavez of Tatamo in
Houston, a Michelin starred chef whose tasting menu restaurant
has earned national recognition, including Esquire's Best New
Restaurants and a James Beard Best New Restaurant Finalist
nod. In this episode we talked about
the origins, the pressure of rapid success, and what it takes
to build and run a Michelin level tasting menu in a tiny
kitchen. We talked about growth,
leadership, and finding your voice under pressure.
Stay tuned. Chef, I'm glad you're here.
I want to first of all congratulate you on all the
success that you've achieved lately.
So the Michelin star, congratulations, but you've
you've been on a run. How did we get here?
Like how did this run began? It is.
Thank you for having us. It's super excited to be here.
Massive fan. I don't know, things just kind
of just happened so, so quickly. And then you have 30 seconds to
yourself, whether it's in the restroom contemplating your
whole career. And then you start to think back
like, man, I'm 20 plus years into cooking.
It's hasn't been that, that fast.
But I, I, I love it that you started with, with the accolades
because off camera we're talking about accolades, how they can be
a double edged sword. And for restaurants like ours
that people don't know that are the modern day small business
mom and pop, so to speak there. We're not, we don't have the
infrastructure for certain accolades.
So when we started accumulating at a really fast pace, it
definitely shifted how we tried our basically our whole five
year plan changed. We're no longer to be making the
mistakes that most restaurants or business owners were able to
make. We had to tighten up the ship
without having the infrastructure, the financial
help or even the space to like be able to accommodate those
accolades coming our way. When did the team open?
We signed lease 2021, we open 2022.
So there's like idea was born in the pandemic.
Basically, yeah, we're while everyone was doing sourdough,
we're doing tortillas. Yeah.
And it kind of just didn't stop. When, when you opened it in
2021? So now we're in 2026.
How different is it when you open to what it is now from a,
from a food philosophy, from cuisine or even service?
Everything when we started, we wanted to use, we wanted to do a
restaurant, right, But pandemic restaurants didn't exist.
So we shifted into wholesale. So now we had to learn how to
create accounts, mass produced tortillas, give those the masa
to other chefs to be able to do other things during the pandemic
and specials. So we were no longer cooking.
We would just we're providing a business or service.
So that was very hard ship in, in my career 'cause I had no, I
didn't know how to bulk anything up until something that was
going to be used, utilized for some someone else being a chef.
And you know, it's very selfish. Like my, my masa, my dish, my,
my vision. It's no longer that.
It's about the customer, the driving and delivery, the
invoices and things of that. Once we got over the hump and
things kind of just started to flourish and make sense for us,
then we started going back and like, OK, this, this worked for
us. This is funding itself.
Let's go back into the restaurant and we've opened 16
seated, 16 seats tasting menu. That wasn't a tasting menu.
So you opened a la carte and then transition tasting?
Menu No, we've opened brunch. Oh, you opened for brunch?
Because we were doing pop ups, man.
It's a bad word in a lot of places.
It is. So it's funny because I, I, I
have a, a line of clothing that I do for chefs.
PSA it says Buck French and people ask me like, do I hate
brunch? No, I don't hate it.
Like I just I, I don't like working it and my gripe with
brunch. So I want to, I want to make
sure I go on record because I sometimes people like it like
haters like what you know, brunches like I understand that
my problem with brunch is sometimes a restaurant's not set
up to deliver it. Correct.
There's restaurants that are set up to deliver brunch, meaning to
have an AM crew and APM crew and the AM crew knows how to work
it. Where I have a problem with
brunch is that it's the PM crew during dinner service Saturday
night, the busiest service, prepping for brunch, closing,
going out, partying, coming in hungover and opening for brunch.
That's where I have a problem with brunch.
So for people that aren't sure why I I hate brunch so much, I
don't hate brunch. Like I understand it's also a
great driver of revenue in the economic engine and it's a it's
a great meal period. Like if you're paying rent on
your property, like you're paying for that service when
you're closed too. So why not be open?
You're even, I'm excited you're paying for Sunday brunch rent,
so might as well serve it. So I get that my thing is like,
but if you're going to do it, don't do it to the detriment of
your staff. Correct.
No, I I agree 100% and I've worked in restaurants where it
is exactly what you described. Saturday night service, we deep
clean, leave at 1:00 AM and then come back at 7:00 AM and prep or
I worked at restaurants where the Saturday night crew kind of
tap into the prep for brunch and then you come in thinking you're
ready to go and then your shallots are gone, your chives
are gone and it's it's a mess. If it's not even structured
properly, it can be been in the. Ass I I joke around.
I say brunch is the only service that that ruined Sunday brunch
ruined Saturday night dinner because because the cooks were
busy prepping brunch instead of focusing about the orders.
But I've come to realize that brunch actually makes some of
the greatest cooks. If you endure brunch, if you
love it, because brunch is more about nurturing people than the
actual. It has to be a great dish,
right? It's about commodity and
understanding the you mean some plus list, understanding that
you have to be up on time, that you have a responsibility to the
team not to go out. But if you endure those things,
Oh my God, you're going to have a very successful career.
Yeah, So little things. So, so you, you open for brunch
and then and then from there you transition into like, how do we
go from brunch to tasting menu? We went from brunch because.
It's funny. Well, people don't know if if
you didn't pick up what I said earlier, they're not familiar
with you. Like how do we go from brunch to
Michelin *? That's a great question.
We went from brunch. We started with brunch because
we're doing the pop ups in between.
So people knew of us through pop ups.
So it was going to be very hard for us to just transition random
like we no longer doing pancakes and because of the yes, we're
going to do a tasty menu. So we understood the market,
right? You have to like slowly make
that transition. Instead of us doing pop ups, we
had to bring people in. So how do you reap people in?
By giving, by putting things on the plate that they trust you
that they enjoy. So the smart thing for us was to
start with brunch, get their trust back, get them to come to
us, understand where the space is, the commute and things of
that. Once we got through that hump,
then slowly we started like, hey, now we're doing a tasting
menu. It's going to be 4 courses.
Two months in, that's five courses.
That's 5565. Little by little we start
adding. The thing that we I think worked
for us is that we didn't do it with an ego.
People open restaurants with egos and not with business
plans. We open it with a business plan
and not with the ego. So we slowly increased what we
were able to do and that kind of helped.
Those kind of got it. Once we got the first accolate,
then we started to attract cooks.
What was the first big accolade that you got that started?
You started to see the shift and not only how you operated but
also in attracting. Cooks, I think, if I'm not
wrong, Squire named those one of the, I think it's 5025, best in
America, 2022. And I do think they rank them.
If I'm not mistaken, I think we ranked at 10 and that tracked a
lot of got a lot of attraction because before that in Houston,
there was in a lot of restaurants coming up in the in
a national way in the national life locally, yeah, left and
right, we open restaurants nationally.
I think we're one after maybe Oxford by Justin that was kind
of being recognized at a national level and that
definitely piqued people's interest and started to see, oh
wow, the pandemic, kids are doing something special and that
just that came. Did you say the pandemic kids
that's. Pandemic kids.
Yeah, I liked it. It was those as a pandemic
babies, kids. Yeah, OK.
There's a lot of new. Restaurants there.
Pandemic babies it is. Yeah, it's a lot of those out
there. Yeah.
How did it feel when you got that Esquire?
Like, like when you started to realize that, hey, OK, this is
something, how did it, how did that Esquire feel when it first
came out? Honestly didn't feel like
anything because I didn't. I knew we weren't ready for it.
But you thought you weren't ready.
For it. I knew we weren't ready for it
again, not from a legal standpoint from like, OK, we're
going to get busy. People are going to expect more
from us. We don't have the infrastructure
for it. So now we got to be very careful
how how we take this, right? Let's take the compliment, but
then let's move past it. It doesn't exist the following
day. Just put it away.
It's going to be there forever, right?
But let's little by little, let's not say yes to everything.
We don't have to do every pop up.
We don't have to do every chef guess.
Slowly start building a culture within the team.
Let's start bringing in more talent, teaching them properly,
and then we'll see what what where that gets us.
That's really mature. Of you by the way, I I I know
like a lot of people that get a little bit of shine.
It's like I'm the fucking best it.
Doesn't work like that. Yeah, it doesn't work like that.
Fresh news one day or news the next day.
It's the cycle of life. Yeah, how did?
OK, so let me let me ask you this because you were also
nominated for James Beard. I think the following year,
right? And then that was the same year
that you achieved your first Michelin *.
No, so right after this Squire 2023, we got finalists for best
new restaurant James B Foundation.
That definitely felt a little bit more nerve wracking I guess
because people were like Oh my God, like 16 seater at that
point. I can tell you our menu fucking
sucked. We weren't, that wasn't what it
is now. We're still very fresh.
We're on that one year mark trying to figure out making a
lot of mistakes. I was making a lot of mistakes
with their ordering, leading the team.
I think leading the team were was my some of my biggest, not
regrets, but lessons learned early on.
What do you mean? I wanted it to be like the
restaurants that I came up in. Very not hostile, but definitely
very intense because I, I enjoyed it, but that didn't mean
that the team that was there enjoyed it.
They were definitely not there for that.
So I had to separate my, my beliefs and my experiences to
what my restaurant needed and was becoming.
And that's where I go bike once and needs.
Kitchens are brutal right now, everyone knows it.
Fewer people on the line, margins tighter than ever, and
somehow the expectations keep going up.
There's just no room to miss anymore.
I was talking to a chef recently who said the biggest stress
wasn't the volume, it was the mental load.
Babysitting, food, timing, everything perfectly, trying to
be everywhere at once. And that's where equipment
matters more than people want to admit.
Rationals Technology comes up a lot in those conversations.
The Icon B Pro, the Ivario Pro overnight roast that don't need
to be checked, custom programs for all your recipes,
consistency without hovering completely automated cleaning,
monitoring everything from your phone, the list goes on.
And what really buys you the headspace?
Less standing over pans and more time to leave the kitchen
instead of constantly putting out tiny fires.
When you're down to cook, When the prep list is rough, when the
production ramps up. Think rational.
Why? Why do you think you enjoyed the
intense kitchen? Because I did too.
I like, I enjoy intense kitchen, but I, I also realized that in
intense kitchens and kitchens were maybe the culture is a
little bit different. A lot of it has to do with the
people in those kitchens and you, you adapt a little bit.
You know, if you have a group of very intense people, you could
run it that way. But if you have people that are
not that way, you can't run it that way.
And I think a good chef understands how to get the best
out of their team in a healthy way.
Correct. And that's funny you said that
because last year someone in my team that's been with me like
almost three years brought that to my attention was like, hey,
you're not so intense anymore. And I said the restaurant
shifts, changes we have, I'm like the coach, right?
I'm not the star player. You guys are the star players.
I need to figure out your strengths and your weaknesses.
And I have to like adjust the styles to ensure that we all
succeed. So I like you said, I can't be
intense like I used to because not everybody enjoys that and
they, no, not everyone can perform well under that
pressure. So he was like, OK, I kind of
see that, but I kind of miss the intensity from back then.
Just because we're not intense doesn't mean we don't have high
standards. And I told him that and I had to
learn that the hard way, right? I personally enjoy it because as
an immigrant, you're forced to understand that you're going to
be in, in uncomfortable environments, right?
So whether it was going to a school that where you didn't
speak in English, that was uncomfortable, right?
Going to a job and not getting the job because of what, what
you sounded like or how you look like, that was uncomfortable.
Playing sports, right? You weren't always getting the
opportunities to, to either start on a team because of your
skin color. So those intensities were in my
DNA very at a, at 9 years of age.
So being in the kitchen and being told that you can't be
promoted to a Swiss ship because you're Hispanic, that drove me,
that that fueled me. I was ready to like.
Yeah, I'll tell you, I, I don't think I've ever said this on the
podcast. This is like one of my kitchen
traumas, kitchen traumas, one of my first jobs.
And for people that don't know I'm Hispanic, people don't know
that. And I, I hate to say I was
probably more Hispanic when I was younger because, you know, I
was, I was, I was straight out the hood, right?
I've, I've been a chef now. I've been in corporate
environments like I've, I've toned down the the hood in me.
But I remember one of my first jobs, I remember I was so pissed
because I had just graduated from culinary school.
I probably had about a year experience under my belt and I
was working in this fine dining restaurant at the time and
someone from the CIA had graduated and they were an
intern. Susha loved to fuck with me and
he'd come up to me and that's your new boss.
I'm like, how's he my new boss? Like he's an intern, I've
graduated even though I didn't go to CIA, but they're like, but
he's CIA. And we would grind my gear so
much. And back then, you know, 'cause
you know, kitchens were different.
You know, my nickname in the kitchen was a stupido, right?
Or Feto which is like fetus for people that don't know.
Yeah, yeah. So, so my nickname in the
kitchen was Feto, 'cause I was young, so that that meant fetus
or a stupido. So when I come into the kitchen
they'd Hi everyone stupidos here, you know, they'd make a
big deal. You know, it was whatever, but
I, I'll never forget that my chef came up to me in a fucked
up way because he knew that this kid coming in as an intern and
he would say that's going to be your like he would constantly
fuck with me. Like that's your new boss.
And he came up to me and he says this is fucked up.
This might trigger warning for some people.
Comes up to me and says, you know what we call someone that
speaks English in the kitchen, Andre and I said, what's that?
He says we call them Chef. That's.
And I was like, it was like one of those moments that I was
like, I boiled over in anger. I wanted to kill the guy.
I didn't understand. But there was also a part of me
that understood that I was a guest in this environment that I
wanted to succeed in. So I couldn't spill over in
anger. But it was one of these
emotional scars that has stayed with me forever.
So I understand what you're talking.
About yeah, I need that intensity drove me to the next
job, so yeah. Wow, yeah, it's, it's it's
tough. And I and I don't think, I
don't, I don't know if people fully understand what a cook
chef go through when they come into a kitchen that they, you
know, they, they think they're walking into Disneyland because
they're young and they're naive and they don't know what this
is. And they watch some Food Network
and they walk in and, and they walk in and they think I'm I'm
right out of high school, I'm 18 years old, or I'm out of school
and I'm 20 years old out of culinary school.
And you walk into kitchen, you think everyone has that same
mentality. And you realize the line cook
next to you is 40. Right.
They don't give a shit about you.
They've, they've had, you know, 20 years of, of you'll figure it
out. Yeah.
And. But I, I enjoy those moments
because I, when I was in those in those kitchens, I, I must
have been like 1617. So I idolize the guys that were
twice my age that were telling me, don't listen to a cookbook
from Noma, right, because those ingredients don't, don't
translate in Texas, understand Texas.
So they definitely, even though they were tough and it was tough
love and sometimes it sucked and opportunities went there.
There are very moments, there are pockets of moments that
you're like looking back now, because I'm now I'm their age
and I look back, I'm like, wow, like that stuck with me
throughout the years because if I would have not listened to
that moment of like, don't do that, That's leave that to that,
that side. Do do this because this is you,
this is ours. It's it's our responsibility to
take ownership of it and, and evolve it and move it forward
and learn from it and then pass it on.
I don't think I would have had the career that I have now for
sure. How did it feel looking?
Yeah. You're talking about your story,
immigrant, struggling sometimes with your identity in your own
skin. And then how did it feel to be
called up on the stage to receive a Michelin star?
You know, one of the few restaurants in Houston.
So who else got a star in Houston?
You March. Le Jardinian.
Yeah, 33. Restaurants, Foster and I
believe a BBQ spot, yeah. So.
It's like 6 obesian. So how did I mean, like there's
there's legacy in Houston, so many great chefs, Chris
Sheppard, so many other greats that are that are there and
people that have been doing it. And you're going to have some
haters saying that, you know why you and not me?
How did it feel when you were called on stage?
First of all, did you think you were going to get a star?
Oh. Man, I'm probably going to get
roasted for this. They my whole idea was operate
the restaurant at a once like we have a Michelin star before even
their guide. That's since they won since
20/21 was open the restaurant with the mentality of we're
going to get a start. We need a star for in personal
integrity, right? Take ownership, do it right, do
right by the team, take your time.
Taste, taste, taste right. Hospitality.
That was my that that was a model of the restaurant.
And that's something that was given to me at a very young age.
And that's something that I to this day, it's like hospitality
tastes now, maybe some things are out of place and order, but
that's the, the root of it all. So I wasn't personally shocked
when the guide was announced and my restaurant was already
operating. At that's what you were aiming
for. Not because I needed to start,
but for personal integrity, right?
So I feel like I had a head start before everyone else
because when the guy was announced, now everyone wants to
like tighten up and do tasty menus.
It's been engraved and since I was 20 years old and me so to me
wasn't strange. So I wasn't surprised by it, but
it definitely felt a sense of calmness.
Calmness before the storm for sure.
I was calm because I was like, OK, I'm not too crazy.
My format works. But then I was like, tomorrow
when the repos and the Congrats and the text N and people come
in comparing us to other institutions, not restaurants,
institutions to other chefs, it's going to suck a little bit,
but like everything in life, it's going to pass.
How did so so put us, put us in that room.
You're in Houston. They're they're calling people
out. I mean, what are you, I'm, I'm
sure you got a bespoke suit. You're dressed up.
I was dressed down. You were dressed up.
I was dressed down for sure. Just because you never know.
You know, you, you got that, the invitation, you got the e-mail.
You really don't know. Like you're second guessing and
you're I'm, I remember just keeping keeping my nerves calm,
saying hi to the people that I knew and just being present in
the moment. My phone.
I wasn't taking pictures, I wasn't on social media checking.
I was legitimately just soaking up the moment for whatever way
it went. If we didn't get a start, it was
going to be motivation for us to get a start.
If we did get a star, I was going to make sure that the team
understood that that star doesn't make us better than
anyone, but we have more responsibility than anyone to
one maintain it and to to just show people what it what it
means to like be fucking bad ass cooks, right That have a small
restaurant with one blender with one three door cooler and we
could be in the same conversation at this multi
$1,000,000 restaurants, right? Well, because of the core values
of integrity, hospitality, taste, taste, taste.
From from a business standpoint, once you received the Michelin
star, did you see a significant uptick in reservations and.
For sure. We our restaurant caps at 32,
32, nine courses. It's a lot.
It's almost 2270 something plates of food from a little arc
in my kitchen, smaller than this room.
We don't have a dish machine. Everything has is washed by
hands. Everything, everything.
Plates. Everything, everything,
everything. We don't have wine glasses,
everything. Wow.
We don't have an actual machine. The the gentleman, the two
gentlemen. Shout out to your team that does
dishes. The whole team does dishes.
I do dishes. Everybody has to do dishes.
We don't. So we don't have a dishwasher,
right? We call it back court, kind of
like a sports championship defense with championships,
right? So if the back court's secure,
we're going to have a great service, we're going to win
championships because we're taking care of that area, not
that person because it's everyone's responsible.
I don't want the person that washes dishes, the 19 year old
to be like I'm a dishwasher out of them all.
He's a team member out of them. All right, His responsibility
might be to Polish or wash that night, but if he calls off, it's
going to be someone's responsibility because we don't
have a machine. So it's once in one dream.
Well, actual positions it's. It's about 300 plates a night.
It's a it's a lot. It's.
My math is right. It's, and that's not including
the pots pans, right, the yakumi pans, everything that we utilize
to prep, cook family meal. It's it's hard.
Wow. So we have 24 team members.
That's a. That's a lot of stat.
For a 16 seater. That's a lot of cooks for a
small kitchen, Yeah. So how do you how do you teach
them to work efficiently in a tight space?
You have like certain things that are like rules in the
kitchen, like for a new cook coming in, then hey, there's a
tight space. This is how you work.
We actually how I like to to handle it as someone comes in,
it's more like a trial. They know that I don't get
involved as much with with the fresh, not fresh meat, but the
fresh meat one because they're they're what's well.
But with my sous chef, with my lead cook, with the guys, I've
been there for the longest. So if I put in, it's going to
create, it's going to not it's going to unbalance the scale.
So my job now, and this is something that I want to talk
about my transition. How do I transition?
I teach the people that have been with me the longest how I
like things, whether it's the label cut, the salt, the oils,
which bought bottles, the towels, they know me right now.
They're like a representation of of me.
If I'm not there, everything should be in its place and they
know it. I come in and I'm like, that's
not that doesn't go there. So they're responsible for
teaching the new guys things like that.
I'll jump in from time to time. I mean, give advice on, hey, I
saw you doing this. Let me show you how I do it.
If it works for you, great. If it doesn't, let's keep
figuring out what works for best.
But at the end of the day, you need to show whoever's next to
you the same respect you're showing me because I'm not here
during the prep, right? My job is more about ensuring
that we have seats and people are still coming in and the
lights, the doors on. We don't have water.
How, how, how much business training and education did you
have before you opened the restaurant?
Training opening restaurants. I've opened hotels, so I've come
from structure and I worked in country clubs, so I understand
volume, I understand prep sheets, I understand food costs
and all that. Training, opening the restaurant
was probably, it's my first one, solely Megan, my business
partner, but like solely, solely fully responsible for
everything. My first one and I had no idea
what I was doing so it was hard. So I'm assuming the best
Business School you could attend is the school of doing it.
For sure. Figuring it out for sure.
But I grew up in an industry like I've been inside a
restaurant since I was 10/11. My parents both work in
restaurants so today they work in restaurants.
So I understood the insurance and outs and and the back end of
things. I also like I said, I'm not
selfish or I understood that there's I don't know everything
so I like to hire people that are better than me.
I don't she doesn't like to hire good.
They like they want to hire good cooks, but they don't want to
admit or hire people that are better than them.
I hire people that are better than me.
For for chefs that don't understand that, which I think
is super important, I'm I'm I'm a firm believer of what you are.
I want to surround myself with people that know things that I
don't know. I'll teach you what I know, but
I want you to know things that I don't know exactly learn from
you as well, because when you're in a position of chef, sometimes
you can't go out and stodge and work in all these other
restaurants anymore. You're learning is now didactic
self self. It's self driven.
So when you hire people, you're, you're hoping that they're
better than you. And from an example of like
Chef's like, no, no, I want to be the best one in the kitchen.
I'll give you a podcast example. I edit the podcast, right?
If I was going to hire someone to edit my podcast, but I want
me to be better than them. No, I'd want to hire an editor
that's better than me to, to make the podcast look better,
look sharper, you know, have more graphics or whatever.
Like why would I hire someone that's not as good as me or, or
why would I be intimidated that they're better?
It lifts everything else up in the kitchen.
It doesn't mean that they are going to take my job.
It doesn't mean that that they're going to outside me.
It's like, no, no, it's your restaurant, right?
Why, like you own? It exactly though it doesn't
make sense. I think that's the key to
success, right? Hire the people that are better
than you at the job because you have to evolve.
You know, I'm 30, I turned 37 this year.
My body's slowly telling me the 17 hour days are no longer and
durable like. It really kicked in for me at
like 39. Yeah.
At 39, I felt. It's a hard it's it's such a
brutal industry. Doesn't matter if it's tasty
menu or 120 seater. It's mentally, emotionally and
definitely physically toxic relationship.
Yeah, it's love, hate, right? Yeah, I love it and I hit it.
What, what were some of the, the things that like some of the
biggest lessons that you learned when opening the restaurant that
you could advise someone like, hey, you're going to go down
this journey. Don't do this or make sure you
do this. From a financial standpoint is
understand the needs and wants. Everyone wants to have a fancy
well equipped kitchen or restaurant, but do you really
need one? I think that that would be the
first one. I'll give you an example.
I spent 10K replacing the floor in the dining room, what we call
the dining room. Those 10K could have, I could
have used for something else more probably more equipment or
better, I don't know, something else in the beginning besides
the floor. In my mind, I wanted the floor
to be. But I have an ambition, right?
I wish somebody and because we don't have financial backing, I
wish somebody would have said no, right?
Think it's a lot to spend on floors, floors.
And four years later I, I contemplated I don't own the
building. I don't own that floor.
I gave 10K to a future tenant and I it eats me alive everyday.
Every time I walk in I'm like God damn it.
So that's one right? Understand that unless you own
the building, the property, the whole thing, it's not yours.
Don't, don't invest the second one we.
You know how to cook. That's not the problem.
The problem is getting your team to do what you want when you
want it. That's leadership.
My book, Culinary Leadership Fundamentals, breaks down
exactly how to run a kitchen without losing your mind.
Stop yelling. Start leading.
Get the book at Chefs psa.com. Understand the the team
camaraderie, right? Understand how they basically,
sometimes they we don't know how the same schooling of Hard
Knocks, right? If someone yells at me, I'm
going to thrive because I love it.
If I get a bad A1 review and I've we've gotten many one
reviews, I thrive. I come back the next morning and
next, you know, it's a new menu completely or we bat another
course because I like things like that.
That's someone telling me that I suck and I love it.
But not everybody, not everybody works that way.
So sometimes you have to have a lot of one on ones.
Sometimes you have to have make room on your schedule to have
team meetings and you don't always have to speak.
Let them speak. You just got to listen.
I think the best lesson is to hear them out right?
Like maybe they're not happy, maybe they want to learn
something else, but they're too afraid to or you're too busy for
them to like grab your attention and they're they're timid and
next, you know, like, oh, check, here's my two weeks.
Oh, because you spent 20 minutes listening to to their needs and
wants. So I think those are the 2.
Is there anything that in in the restaurant right now that that
you if you could go back and do it all over again besides the
floor if you were starting another restaurant, so version 2
point O, what would be some of the things that you would start
out immediately and say, OK, we're going to make sure we do
this completely different if you had carte blanche.
It's funny you said that because we're working on something like
that right now. Can you announce it here?
No. No, no, not yet.
Not yet. Yeah, but don't give it to
Eater. No, I'm not going to give it to
Eater. That's a great question.
Definitely would think that investing in more refrigeration.
It's never have enough, right? You can never have enough
refrigeration. I didn't think I in my mind 3A3
door cooler, like yeah, I'll make it happen.
And as the team evolves, the restroom evolves, the there's
more needs. There's not enough space to like
store things. So I think just more
refrigeration. Your, your menu is, is is
interesting and your style of food is interesting because
what's unique to Texas? I would say, obviously it's not
unique to the world, but it's unique, I would say to Texas,
especially receiving a Michelin star and then doing tasty menu.
There's not a lot of restaurants in Texas that do this style of
cuisine and tasty menu. You know yourself initially, I'm
trying to think, who else tasting menu, It's probably just
you too, right? Shout out to the guys that
initially. But the reason, the reason I
asked that is when it comes to the creative process, when you
were starting to go down the tasting menu route and develop
your own voice and your own style of cooking, where were you
drawing inspiration from? And then was there ever a
certain point where that inspiration stopped becoming
inspiring, and then that inspiration was just coming from
just only a year? So I'm going to touch into
things trying to answer the question.
The only reason we did Tasting Menu is because of our location.
So we're outside of the city. We're like 10 minutes away from
the city in a street mall that's basically three businesses in a
street mall, a donut shop that's only open from 6:00 to 2:00, and
then a church next to us. Everything.
I think it's an office, like a works office next to us or next
to the donut shop that operates from like 9:00 to 5:00.
There's not a lot of like walk in traffic, so there was no
inhale. I was going to survive opening
an Ala carte menu there. It wasn't going to happen.
The only reason brunch was successful is because instead of
us doing pop ups going to markets, we said come to us,
right? We also didn't have a big
overhead. We had like 2, two team members
at the time. So we're basically there all day
by ourselves. I was washing dishes, prepping.
I was doing the whole thing for like a year by myself.
So I was able to save a lot of money that way.
The Tasty menu was basically forced on us.
Like you not going to the only way to survive is if you it's
prepaid secure people's money and then you basically force
them to go visit you, right. Otherwise it wouldn't work.
From the Tasty menu, their creative side was to in the
beginning was all vegetables. It was a vegetable forward
tasting menu and people hated it in Texas.
Yeah, but my food calls a lot of time super low time, right?
My main, my what? Made you want to do vegetable
tasting menu. Labor, you know, I realized that
I need to start not with my ego, but being smart, you know, and I
couldn't just new restaurant A5. It was not going to work.
You know, you have to like slowly build momentum, make sure
that I get the money back that I spent on the flooring and things
like that. It's my own money.
So every cent counts. You like when it's money that
people give you blow it, not really keeping track of it,
sure, but when it's yours, yours, like from years of like
savings, every penny counts. Someone grabs an extra tile and
you're like, Oh my God, stop. Like stop being so messy, so
vegetable, tasty menu. Our main course was a smoked
sweet potato Taco. That was our main course.
All right, so some people loved it, some people hate it, but I
didn't care. It was an illegal thing.
It was a survival thing. Once, like I said, all the
accolades started coming in, more people started coming into
the restaurant, Then we're able to kind of shift and that's
where the inspiration started coming in because I had more
people with more pedigrees different.
Coming to work. For you for sure resumes and I'm
like, OK, what do you want to do?
Like what's in your mind? What's in your palette?
And then we start buying something on IDs and then this
kind of shifts and then I feel like people take ownership.
It's not, it's not my menu even now.
The menu that we have now, I think the only thing that's
hasn't changed is quesadilla since day one.
And that's something that like maybe just reminds me of home.
Everything else has kind of changed from ideas bouncing by
talking to the team so. So you have a very collaborative
menu. When it's 700 square feet, you
have to collaborate with people because you also have to be
mindful that if I want to do something and they can't execute
it, it's not going to be. How do you how do you determine
when a when a menu item is not a good fit for the menu?
When? From your team, not not from
your ideas, but let's just say it, a team member, sous chef or
or cook is coming to and say, hey, what do you think of this
as they're presenting it to you? How do you determine if it's?
It's just that's not going to work.
It has to go to the three stages, first stage sourcing,
second stage story because again, sourcing something for I
don't know, 100 people a week, It's not easy, especially
proteins, right? Not a lot of people want to make
that drive to like or make that commitment to you.
Let me rephrase that. After the star that hold that
change, but before the start, it was like you need to get at
least half a case of something and I can't just break the case
because you need 11 item storing when we have a three door
cooler. So it has to make sense with our
storing. And the final one, would we call
them sequences has to make sense with it the sequence.
So for us, a sequence is because it's such a tight space, you can
just move kind of like scramble. We have a procedure of like when
guest comes in, the kitchen's already understanding the
movements. It's like a valet.
It's very organized and you can tell when you're done with us
and you sit at the counter that we're having a bad service
because it's very chaotic. People are not synchronized.
We're synchronized. I can honestly say, and I've
been at at least like 82 stars. We had a two star level.
When we are synchronized, it's not often, but I can, I can see
it, I can smell it, I can see it.
I don't hear it when I don't hear anything like not one pot
being like put down overly hard because you're scrambling to
grab something else. I know we have a two star
service on the front of the house.
Team members are coming in and like sorry, doing swiney like
sequences of like the silverware, cleaning it up.
They're having fun and they're having fun.
I'm having fun and that's when we're like, OK, if all those
three things click the dishes perhaps for.
The menu you said something that I haven't really thought about
in quite some time because I haven't been in a kitchen in a
while, but like the the noise of the pot on the on the on the
stainless. I hate it.
I I every kitchen where I go like should have trivets.
Nothing hot goes on. Nothing hot goes on the counter.
Have a trivet like. No, we haven't.
Yeah, we have them, yeah. Something but if you if you
don't have a towel, if you don't have a trivet, use a towel or
whatever. Because I hate the when when
you're in the flow, nothing drives me crazier than banging
pots and slamming, slamming ice machines or doors.
That would drive me crazy. But I haven't thought about that
in quite some time. But yeah, you know, you're in
this flow state when everything is like like this ballet and
everything just going it's clicking.
So when it comes to tasting menus, because I have a lot of
thoughts on tasting menus, I don't want to get into them, but
when it comes to tasting menus and you're structuring it
because you're doing Mexican style food, what like a
traditional tasting menu is going to start, you know, maybe
some, some bites are used at the beginning.
And then you might go into a raw fish dish and you're going to
progress in, in, in intensity and flavor and and spice.
You're ramping up because you don't want to kill the palate
early on. Then you're going to have
usually a cold seafood, a hot seafood, you know, meat #1 meat
#2 desserts, dessert, one dessert, 2 ER DS at the end.
And I'm probably forgetting a couple of things in here as I'm,
you know, going off the top of my head structure in a tasting
menu, depending on how many courses.
But for you, what is the, the format like?
What's the playbook for a tasty menu in your restaurant for your
style? Like you said, it has to start
cold, it has to have balances of acid and spice.
Right at the beginning. Yeah, it's Mexican food, right?
So we get to play with those things.
You go to a taqueria and you're like, oh, can I get a fish Taco?
No, it's like, can I get a Taco? And then you're going to citrus.
That's in my mind. It's a form of acid because it
just salivates your mouth. Not from spice level, but it
just salivates your mouth. And you have satsas, right?
You don't really think about it. And it's also greasy and messy.
So we have a little bit of luxury to be like, eat it with
your hands. Right.
And then people will complain like, oh, it's a, it's a tasty
menu. It shouldn't be.
When you go eat nigeries, you eat it with your hands. 9 out of
10, you're going to eat it with your hands, right?
So we have the luxury to, yeah, be a Mexican tasty menu.
So we get to play with bold flavors.
We're also in Texas. So people we have, we have to
listen to what people want. People want bold flavors, right?
They want heavy items, even if it's small, small pieces of it.
They want that, OK, I'm getting my money, my values, my values
worth. And then the other one is like,
I like to compare it a lot with Japanese cuisine.
And I know a lot of shows do do it, but for me it's more about
the mentality or like educating the guest.
When you go to a kind of sushi counter, you get a negative
piece for 19 bucks, right? You don't ask for another one,
you're going to pay for another one.
That's kind of the same thing with tasty menu, especially in
Texas, right? People are not educated enough
because we don't have enough. So they're hit and miss.
People are going to come in and be like, I don't know what I'm
getting myself into, but I'm excited.
And they either hate it or love it.
And then you have the the other half that's going to come in and
they're going to start critiquing it and like, oh, it's
not like, oh, it's not like, oh, it's not like such such in San
Francisco or New York. I'm like, no shit.
Those are institutions. 20 years plus.
We're going on five years. Look around, look around, right?
It's a small restaurant. Was it good?
Yeah, it was good. But it's it doesn't stand up to
to those other establishments. You don't have a wine list and
and whatnot and all that's fair. And then you have like the
people that has kept have kept us alive that come in and don't
know tasty menus and don't know all the restaurants, but they
enjoy what we're doing. And to them is unique.
It's fresh, it's new and it's modern.
And then you get it and they fucking love it.
And they keep coming back and they tell their friends and they
post and next you know that we're doing events.
And I feel like all all those 3 genres are are fair game, right?
So, so going back to your, yours is 9 course correct, Correct.
So what, what is what? How do you start out?
What's courses like? What are?
What are the 9? Course one's going to be a
tostada. Is it always a tostada?
No, it's been a ceviche in the past, so it's small bite.
It's a small bite. It's like 30 grams of 15 grams
of seafood and like 30 grams of masa.
So it's pretty nice started it's very delicate nice.
We've spent a lot of lot of time doing them.
That's going to be the first course.
Then you have a a tracoyo sope, which is something more heavy
with beans, raises cheese. Then you have a quesadilla
that's fried and then you have a vegetable course.
We're now it's a chili tole with coconut froth and masa vigne.
That's all vegetables. So it's a little more starts to
like tone down a little bit and then you have the right now and
then Molada with duck two ways, which is your first protein and
then you will go straight to. The what are the two ways on
the? Duck.
Right now we do a carnita style that's kind of like roulade, and
then we season that with green olives and a lot of citrus.
It sounds scary. It's.
Yeah, delicious. It's really, really like you eat
it and you can't stop. This.
I'm hungry by the way. Like it's lunch time as your
tongue. Since then, I just roll into
town. I'm like ready to go to eat.
Shout out to Nix that because we're coming through right now.
And then we do the breast itself that gets cooked down with a
satire spice 'cause we're featuring a mole from Cueva and
there's a lot of Lebanese population in Puebla, so we're
allowed to you to tell those stories through this dish.
And then that gets a little bit of a roasted pineapple juice
that gets seasoned with Mexican egg.
So we call it Mexican Exo, which is like Chicatanas, anything
that's dry basically. People don't know what are
chikatanas. Chikatanas are wahakan ants
rather. They're short, which are
delicious. They're salt crunching and high
nutrient and amazing. And the flavor of those ants for
people that have never had them because you think, oh, I'm not
eating ants. Like trust me, it's like a
flavor you've never had. It's so worth it.
Yeah, right. So worth it.
So we use all the dragon umami things that we can utilize and
make our own cheese. That you get that ions to make
the Mexican exo, yeah, that's that's a good idea, yeah.
Yeah, so same thing, right? Umami has to be rich.
Anybody also has to make sense. So we you can be inspired, but
we have to utilize our ingredients.
And then that you get just brushed on the duck and it's
like sweet, spicy, tangy. And you're like, it's like
getting like a perfect student sour chicken.
Yeah, but you don't know why. And you're like, oh, shit.
And then when the team members feels the oh, we make a
Chicatana with others and people are like, it's just like sweet
and sour chicken. But I'm OK with that.
You know, not everything has to be avant-garde or I'm not.
No one's going to reinvent the wheel.
I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel.
I'm just trying to make things that are delicious make sense.
Yeah. And get people paid.
Right. Yeah.
And then you have a carne asada utilizing A5 and that's the
tortilla course when we talk about a little bit about the
history of the of the restaurant.
And then we go to our Bay Post today.
We're about to add another post today.
And then the mayor, Dees. To go, Yeah.
To go. No, we have them there.
Oh, OK, OK. Yeah, I need to.
I haven't. I haven't.
No, please. I need to come.
I don't. I don't get down to Houston
enough. But I have a reason now.
I mean, I have a lot of reasons, but I want to.
I'm hungry, like you're talking. I was like, I want to eat this
right now. What is what is exciting you
right now in culinary doesn't necessarily have to be your
restaurant like what are you looking at right now to get
inspiration that out there in the in the world that is and I
really like because they're doing.
Over here, I'm going to use you as an example.
I love how the generation that I saw from afar and I, I call them
the old hits and, and, and I'm sure you have it because I've
seen it. I've seen you wear it.
When I started cooking, you had two aprons.
You had the black one with The White Stripes, and then you had
the blue one with the thin color.
If you had the blue one, you're your friend.
You're Thomas Keller in my book, right?
Because not a lot of cooks had the blue ones.
That means that you worked in some kitchens that were.
Like the blue Brigard. Yeah, yeah.
And by the way, that blue Brigard, for people that don't
know, there's two of them. The people that know, know.
There's the one with the pocket in the front.
I never seen those. That one's not as good.
You got to get the one without the pocket.
I work with people who have the blue ones, so I've always wanted
a blue one, but I never that was before my time, right?
So I that's how I difference. Like, OK, you've been in some
kitchens, like, you know, shit, the blue apron a little bit
before the tweezers booming, right, The transition that you
guys are making, right? Like it's like sports, like you
play it at the high level for so long.
Something else has What's the plan after within the space?
How do you continue to evolve in this space?
You don't have to, because you can't beat Father Time, right?
It's no, you can't. And it's funny that you're,
you're saying this because I, I think for people that don't
know, and I'll say this, my opinions about food today are
not the same opinions I had five years ago.
They should. And the way I would cook today.
I want to ask you this because I'll, I'll tell you what I'm
thinking and then I'm going to ask you your opinion on this.
What excites me about food today is not what excited me five
years ago. And the way I would run a
Business Today is not the same way I would do it five years
ago. And I've written books on
leadership and the way I lead a kitchen is not even necessarily
today 100% the way I wrote in my leadership books because I, I
evolved. And I think, you know, the chef
that I was when I was 28 or 38 or 35 or, or, or 40 is not who I
am today. And I've, I've learned a lot
from it. And the reason I bring this up
is because when you're in the game, sometimes it's you're in
the game, but when you pull back from the game, you see the game
from from different angles. From a business standpoint, you
see it from a, from a human resources standpoint, you see it
from why was I so mad about that standpoint?
Like why did I get so mad they fucked up the chives that day?
Like why did I like, does it really matter?
Did anyone notice besides me? So a lot of things start to make
sense. And so my question for you based
on my little rant here is when because you open as a brunch
restaurant and the food that you're doing now, now put aside
the business and like not, not from a business standpoint and
not from a creativity standpoint either.
Because I understand that doing the tasty menu, you're going to
be able to come up with more creative things.
But just from a joy of cooking standpoint, like you enjoy
cooking, Which one brings you more joy Cooking like brunch
food. I'm just using brunch food as
the example. Or cooking high end.
Like when you're in the kitchen and you're cooking for the pure
love of cooking for you and people that you love, How do you
cook? How I cook.
OK, I love both. Yeah, I adore both.
They both can coexist because at the same time, it doesn't have
to look pretty, but same ingredients and same attention
to detail and the same respect for it, right?
So it's a craft, right? I don't expect you can't expect
me to go home and and give the intensity just shooting hoops
with my friends at the YMCA as you would do at Game 7 on the
finals, right? Sure, that's but you love the
game of basketball, right? Because you, you out there,
clearly you out there because you love it.
And like I said earlier, the individuals that love brunch
respected and understand it and they thrive in that environment
because they know it's not about them are going to go far because
it's not brunch is not about you.
It's not what you want. It's what people want to eat.
Right. And then the other one, yeah,
like that's what you're getting ready for.
Like 1 could be practice a warm up.
The other one's like the end game, but you have to love both.
There's not different highs, right?
Yeah, different intensities, different mentalities, but the
love for the game is the same. I'll give you a great example.
Yeah, that's a by the way, that's a good example because
you you could say the winning of Game 7 is amazing, but playing
with your best friends is also a once in a lifetime.
It's the it's one of the best. They're both amazing.
Yeah, you can find you in both of them and I will give you a
great example. I have a, a young lady right now
on our team, super talented, extremely talented, and she's
always like, she's been with us almost two years.
She's like, chef, let me pick your brain, like I want to open
my own thing. And she's all over the place.
And she's probably the best person on on our beaches on that
I've ever had because she they're spot on.
Like she's very posed and things and she's on the older side and
she's like, I think I'm ready. I think I'm ready.
And I and every time we get somebody in the in the dining
room asking for a well done A5, whatever it is well done, she
makes this, can't believe it. And like it's like the worst
thing for her. And I'm like, I don't want to
call her by name. I'm like, hey, at some point
when it's your place, you'll understand like it is OK, that
person was well done, right? It's not about you.
It's never going to be about you, the woman.
You realize that and you make peace with that.
You're ready. Until then, you're not ready to
open a restaurant because it's not about you.
Yeah, yeah, I, I mean, it's, it's a, it's a hard lesson to
learn when the guest comes in and, you know, they want that
well done steak or, you know, they they can I get, you know,
can I get a sliced chicken breast on top of the.
Pasta, whatever you want, as long as you enjoy your night
with. Us.
Yeah. Who might it tell you what what
you you should like? Obviously within our.
It's not the main. Right.
Yeah, within our reach. Like don't come in and ask for
something that we don't have or can't provide.
We're, you know, there's a lot of talk right now and kitchens
online, whatever the industry is, a lot of people think the
industry is broken. I don't necessarily think so.
I just think we complain, yeah, a lot about things that don't
really affect us. It's fun to smoke a cigarette
outside and complain about the world.
You know, it's like it's not really affecting what we're
doing day-to-day. But with that being said, is
there, when you look at the culinary industry right now and
the direction that it's going, is there anything that excites
you and is there anything that frightens you as we move
forward? I think definitely the, what
excites me is the accessibility to knowledge that it's a lot
easier to open things up and, and learn from things without
having to travel. But that also frightens me a
little bit because you take that emotion and that human
connection and experience. So that's a little scary to
think about to be able to say, and I use myself as an example.
I haven't gone to I don't go to Mexico as much as people think
or want me to go just because I'm Mexican and I have a Mexican
taste in many restaurant. People are constantly like, oh,
have you been here? Like I didn't have the needs to
travel when I was younger. I didn't have the papers to
travel. So and I was able to do
something without traveling as much, right, memory and things
of that nature. But nowadays people cannot
travel at all and, and say that, Hey, this is Asian inspired, but
I've never been to Asia. So that frightens me a little
bit because I feel like monkey see, monkey do.
It's just going to replicate, right.
And then next thing you know, like we're not going to take the
time to to understand the craft and the ingredients and the
culture. Also, what frightens me is how
and the amount of people that have opinions on our industry
that never worked on the industry can be a little bit
scary as an owner, right? A critic can come in and be
like, this is the best restaurant without or the worst
restaurant. Let's just say the worst for the
sake of the conversation, without ever, ever understanding
what a bad day is or a bad week or someone walking off or
someone stealing or someone being sick or something not
coming in on time, right? But because I have a platform
and and and a pedigree, it's just kind of just the struggle
shakes things up, can be scary, yeah.
I agree with you and I think it's a it's a slippery slope
when I see content creators or influencers out there that their
sole objective is to hurt people.
Yeah, I can't respect that at all.
For people that don't know, I have a rule on the podcast, it's
I don't do gossip. I don't, I don't talk badly
about other chefs and I don't allow people to come on my show
and use it as a platform to to speak badly about other chefs
because I feel like that doesn't provide any solutions.
And we need to be solutions based, solutions oriented and
and working on what's going to improve this industry, what's
going to help you become a better chef or help you become a
better cook. And anyone that I think goes
into an operation and celebrates someone else's demise, I've had
the opportunity to be on both ends.
I've had the opportunity to be successful and I've had the
opportunity to be a complete failure and and you know, hit
rock bottom. I've been on both.
And what's amazing is when you are on rock bottom, everyone
loves to kick you when you're down.
And I and I and I, and then when you come back up, everyone loves
to be your friend again. And it's like, why are we like
that as human beings? Like, what do you think is the
the greater good to stone them in the in the public square
while they're, you know, while their life is crumbling so you
can feel better about yourself or to step up and say, hey, you
know, what are you doing? All right, can I help you out?
Can I help? Can I help lift you up from this
rock bottom? But unfortunately people say no,
no, stone them in the public square.
Like you said, I think it's just a mentality that we have.
You see monkey? Do yeah, it's a lot easier to to
knock someone out than to help someone up, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And, and I think that's mostly
because people just want to feel better about themselves and
their situation. I yeah, I mean, I've never been
one to gravitate toward towards someone.
It's not that I don't care about people.
Obviously I care. But I, I have boundaries within
myself, right? I have 20 something individuals
that require my full attention, not including my friends and
family. So I need to make sure that I
take care of take care of mine. And then that's basically where
I stand. Like, I can't, I can't Knee can
pick about other places, other restaurants, because mine's not
perfect. No, no, and and no one is and
everyone everyone has skeletons in their closet and things that
they wish they could do over and you know, I have AI would say to
people have a little compassion, like one day you might be the
one that. For sure you will be.
It's a circle life. Yeah, eventually they'll will be
knocking on your door too, right.
Difficulty eventually comes for everybody in life.
Anyway that I'll I'll leave it at that, but I want to ask you a
couple of wrap up questions as as we come to a close in your
kitchen, what is the salt? What is the the salt standard
for all-purpose? Not not finishing SO, but just
for all-purpose cooking? The kosher one, the Diamond 1
Diamond. Crispy, yeah.
And then what do you use for finishing?
Right now we're playing with a few salts.
There's some from Colima, they're coming in from Mexico.
They're really, really like high end, but I don't feel like the
Houston palace ready for them. They're a little too coarse.
OK. It's like almost, it's almost
like sea borderline. It's sea salt, sea salt.
But you know, when sea salt hates you for the first time and
you were like, this is unedible. Yeah, yeah.
Kind of like that. So I think we're going to just
kind of creep it into people here and there.
And do you have a a finishing acid go to that you typically
use? Yes.
Key Lime, Key Lime, Key Lime. It's the.
Little, the little. One yeah, it's I just it's funny
because we are so used to lemon, lemon, lemon, but the Key Lime
like it's like the best merrier of like lemon and lime.
It's like as sweet. It's high, high in acid, but a
little undertones of sweetness at the end.
It's a perfect balance for sure. And is there something that you
do in your kitchen that people could say, hey, look, start
doing this and you'll be able to get a lot more flavour or just
be more efficient? Taste, taste as you go.
I tell them all the time, just because we have a recipe doesn't
mean that things are going to taste the same.
The product is not the same, you know?
So we gotta adjust. Are you a green tape person?
Blue tape. How green?
OH, man, I love this question. Green tape all the way.
Green tape. Green tape all the way.
Yeah. Team green tape.
That's level because there's levels.
I don't. I don't like to brag.
When you come into my space and you see the green tape, you'll
know that I'm building professionals.
Into the world, Yeah, Team green tape for sure.
Last question, chef, if you have a a Mount Rushmore of chefs, 4
people that should be on Mount Rushmore to you Who?
Who should those 4 chefs be? Who?
Are we talking about national? Anyone.
Anyone living dead.
Oh man, here. Abroad doesn't matter 4 chefs
that that you you feel are the greatest to you.
We're going to go with Bao Cantu in California at one.
Yeah. He's he's opening a spot here.
Yeah. Yeah.
You're in Austin. Yeah.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah. He's been a massive inspiration
in my career. I was luckily enough to dine at
the first one and then at the large space.
We've kept in contact throughout my career.
He actually tipped me. I don't know if I should say
that. He he gave me advice when when
the guy was announced, for sure. Then Olvera and Regola in Mexico
for sure, just because a pioneer, right?
You got to give the guy credits for sure.
Shepherd out there, just because I'm a firm believer that none of
us in Houston, and I do mean none of us in Houston will be
where we at without him. He broke.
Barriers shout out to. Christian yeah shout out and
Southern smokes too, especially now like another one hot
transition away from when it's time and I I love that and for
that he has to be up there. Justin, you for sure.
For me personally, just. He was able to he was ahead of
his time. You know the tasty menu,
vegetarian tasty menu in 2012 in Houston, unheard of, right?
Changed the game and he was also able to transition into
multiple. He's now a business owner has
bars late concepts James B Winter.
I'm sure he's going to. He's going for a Michelin star.
Like you can tell, like he has a little.
Chip, he's a, he's a, he's a bad motherfucker.
Yeah, he's super talented. He's done it all.
Yeah. I feel like once you cook at
Meadowood, back when Meadowood was around, if you got invited
to the 12 years of Christmas, yeah, that solidified you.
That's one of the greatest ever. You got invited.
That's. Smart, That was very smart, what
they were doing at Meadowood during that time, bringing in
the talent. Before the talent flourished.
Yeah. John Shields was there.
Yeah, it's, but again, not a lot of people nowadays know that
because they don't do their history and research.
And I'm a student of the game. I I thrive on little pockets of
history like that. Yeah, I am too.
I love, I love. I love it.
Chef, this was great. Where can people find you if
they want to eat your food, if they want to follow you on
social media? Social media go by dishwasher 89
and then Houston, TX at the demo we'll.
Have to. We'll have to bring you back.
Please do. Thank you.
All right, that's the show. If you liked it, make sure you
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