Hey, why don't you see what you can do to get me on Iron Chef
America? And she's like, OK, I didn't
think anything of it. And literally like 3 months
after. So like you're, you're on.
Hello chefs. This is Chefs PSA and I'm your
host, Andre Netera. Today my guest is Chef David
Bull. He competed on Iron Chef
America. He's received recognition from
Food and Wine as best new chef. He's currently the vice
president of food and beverage from La Corsia Hospitality.
He's opened up many restaurants. And today we're going to talk
about all of that, including some great business advice for
the chef, entrepreneur, and the very important topic surrounding
mental health. Stay tuned.
What was it like being the first chef from Austin, TX on Iron
Chef? What's going through your mind
when you walk into Kitchen Stadium?
Gosh, can you set the stage? First of all?
How did that? Maybe you can start out like the
the phone rings. Yeah, well, that was kind of the
the after part of winning Best New Chef Food and Wine magazine.
So you win best new best new chef Food and wine magazine What
year is? This 2003. 2003 and I bet you
that that was a while ago. A ton of doors.
Right, a ton of doors. And that was the phone call from
Dana Cowan. And that was the random phone
call that that began to change everything and and.
By the way, for for context, how old are you at this time?
You're in Austin, TX. Oh my gosh, you're a young buck.
You just leave the mansion on Turtle Creek, right?
Yeah, the mansion was, gosh, 1994 to 1999.
And so I started at the Driscoll in Austin in the middle of 1999.
So it's been a couple decades and I was 20.
I was 23 years old from my new my first executive chef at the
Driscoll Hotel. Holt 23 Wow, that's young.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's young.
But you're coming from the mansion on.
Turtle, I was, I was super green and super super unprepared for
what I was walking into. And that was the learning curve
for sure. And then after two or three
years in that I think gosh, food and Wine magazine was 2003.
So 4 years into the Driscoll is that's how long it took to
really turn everything around and and really fall into some
kind of a rhythm. And then the call came in and at
that time we just, we didn't know what was going on.
And we had one, you know, the Austin American Statesman Award
and you know, that whole getting the newspaper thing and getting
those, those five star reviews and Texas Monthly noticed us and
then we don't want to call them. And I remember taking the call
from day and I was like then complete shock.
It was great. It was really great.
Yeah, so I'm assuming you're like on cloud 9 especially
you're 2324 years old, right? Like hot shit, right?
Yeah, yeah, you're 23. And you know, it's funny, I I
think back I won some awards in Dallas at the time, So it was
like 2003 and I had one the rising star chef in Dallas and I
had one another. I had won another award.
So those like two major awards at that time in Dallas that I
had one. And I remember talking to my
mentor at the time, I said, I don't know what to do next.
I think I'm going to give up. Like where do I go from here?
Like I'm already on top. Little did I know, right?
So the phone call, you get to go on Iron Chef America, and this
is like for people that weren't watching food TV at that time,
like there was nothing bigger, nothing bigger than nothing
bigger. Like you're on.
Iron Chef, We were on super excited about the original Iron
Chef. And so that was that was kind of
a cult favorite for us watching the original.
And then honestly, I made a joke to our marketing person.
I said, Hey, why don't you see what you can do to get me on
Iron Chef America? And she's like, OK, I didn't
think anything of it. And literally like 3 months
after she's like you're, you're on.
I was like, you got to be kidding me.
Like there's no way. What do you mean?
I'm on. So that's how it kind of
happened. And then all the details kind
of. What's, what's the behind the
scenes? So like you when you arrive,
like I'm sure there is a little bit more than the grand reveal.
You have a little bit of preparation.
What was your strategy? So we arrived the day forward
and we actually got to watch an episode prior and I forgot who
it was, but we were actually in the studio watching all of it go
down and Alton Brown and and all that.
The it's funny because I think I've got a confidentiality
agreement still. So I don't know how much I can
say. OK, so I know I signed
something, but I'll, I'll see if I could be careful on it.
But the whole thing takes, I mean, it took like 8 hours,
right? The taping takes out of eight
hours. The cooking part is, is
definitely 60 minutes, but and then the judging is another
couple hours. So there's, there's that walk
that you see with all the big lights and the reveal and that
that was like an hour and a half or two hours like that whole
setup. Who did?
Who did you go with? Like how are you selecting your
team? Well, I picked my my CDC and
sous chef from the Driscoll at the time, Josh Watkins and Jason
Maddie, both who are incredible people and incredible cooks to
this day. And yeah, we were all just when
I watched the video, I mean, we were, we were super young.
It was. It was, yeah, no doubt in my
mind that those two guys had to come with.
And, and you're battling Bobby Flay.
Was it boar? It was wild boar.
Wild boar actually, from Broken Arrow Ranch, the ranch down
here. In South Texas and back then for
people to know, like, I don't, I don't remember what the records
were, but like, Bobby Flay was like, had like a super high
winning rate, right? Yeah.
Yeah, definitely a high rate. Yeah, Yeah.
And we always joke that, well, you can't have a losing Iron
Chef. So I mean, he he definitely had
some wins. Yeah.
You know. But what?
What was the the aftermath of that?
Man, the first and foremost, we wanted to give just a shout out
to, to our local folks and people that that made, made that
possible. And so we rented out I think the
original Alamo Drafthouse. And so when it when it aired, we
had a party and and we showed the episode of the Drafthouse.
Which was super cool. Yeah, that's super.
Cool. So that was that was really
great. And you know, nobody knew the
outcome, so it was a little disappointing.
You know what? Was it like.
I'm just curious because at this time you've now won, you've
received food and wine's best new chef, you're on an Iron Chef
and back then this is pre social media.
Yeah. So you're, you're kind of, you
are a celebrity chef at this time.
And by the way, you're probably the only celebrity chef in
Austin at this time. It kind of felt that way.
I mean, it's, you know, I've always not really, you know, I
guess falling into that in my own mind because there's just
way too many people that that made that possible.
But yeah, I mean, back in the day, that whole celebrity chef
thing was definitely kicking off and I was just happy to.
It was funny because nobody thought Austin was a food scene
at that time. Nobody.
Everybody questioned why I was going from Dallas to Austin.
So there felt like a definitely a like, well, this is This is
why. So I felt I felt good about
bringing attention to this to the city because it was an
incredible place, like the a mini melting pot in Texas.
And I was like, what what I mean, it was I wasn't proving
anybody wrong. It was just like, now this is
this is where I needed to be. This is what needed to happen.
And I just felt that there was some movement that was happening
in Austin at the time. So for people that don't know,
so if we're going back, I can tell you, you know, I'm in
Dallas at the time and you're you're the only name we know in
Austin at this point. Like we don't know anyone.
That's like what's going on over here.
You know, it made us start to take a look, right?
And I think it started making a lot of people start taking a
look. And then the next thing you
know, over the next couple of years, I would say for people
that, you know, Texas history, maybe some Austin culinary
history, I would say that you you were the first chef that
people outside of Austin start to know.
And then Tyson Cole shortly after that and then Aaron
Franklin, you know, those you guys were like the first three
that OK, what's going on over here?
David Shanks coming over here, Anthony Bourdain's coming over
here. And it's like now we're starting
to discover, you know, the culinary scene in Austin and a
lot of that, you know, you pioneered.
So I'm, I'm super excited to have you on the show.
Because of you. Yeah, because I remember,
correct me if I'm wrong, you you opened up a spot in Dallas too,
at a certain point? We did, yeah.
And San Antonio and Big Spring and yeah, a few different.
Places. What was the what was the What
was the place? In Dallas, it was the Stonely
Hotel. Was that the Stonely?
That's right, yeah. Yeah.
So it's funny because I'm at the pyramid at that time, chefing at
the pyramid. And I remember when you opened,
you know, at that time, you know, I had my view of my
competitions, like Bruno at the mansion.
And, you know, Steven Piles is doing his thing.
I'm doing my thing. And then you open up with like
another. It's like, oh great, no rest for
the wicked. Yeah, it's like, oh geez, now we
got to compete with Austin here in Dallas now.
Oh my gosh, yeah, that was a good time.
Kitchens are brutal right now, everyone knows it.
Fewer people on the line, margins tighter than ever, and
somehow the expectations keep going up.
There's just no room to miss anymore.
I was talking to a chef recently who said the biggest stress
wasn't the volume, it was the mental load.
Babysitting, food, timing, everything perfectly, trying to
be everywhere at once. And that's where equipment
matters more than people want to admit.
Rationals Technology comes up a lot in those conversations.
The Icon B Pro, the Ivario Pro, overnight roast that don't need
to be checked, custom programs for all your recipes,
consistency without hovering completely automated cleaning,
monitoring everything from your phone.
The list goes on. And what really buys you the
headspace? Less standing over pans and more
time to leave the kitchen instead of constantly putting
out tiny fires when you're down to cook, when the prep list is
rough, when the production ramps up, think rational.
So I I guess as we transition from Iron Chef, from food and
wine, from the Driscoll Hotel, now you start to branch out on
your own. What does that look like?
Because obviously for people that don't know you, you've had
a very successful restaurant empire in Austin and beyond.
Sure. Yeah.
What does that look like? I don't even hear it as an
empire. It's like it's so hard to, I
mean, it's, it's looking back on it.
I mean, we've since then, we've opened 16 restaurants slash
hotels and most of them were historic renovations.
And so, you know, and I've been part of a hospitality company,
you know, the course of hospitality has been a huge, you
know, partnership to be able to give me the opportunity to do
the design, do the concept and do the food that I wanted to do.
So that support and. Did they find you or did you
form this on? We, it was, it was really Jeff
Trigger who was the general manager at the mansion for over
20 years when he raised his family in that hotel.
And when he left Dallas to come to the Driscoll, I was like,
hey, man, like can I get a letter of reference?
Because what are you, what are you doing?
And he's like, well, have you ever been to Austin?
And I said, no, I've never been to Austin.
It's like, well, why don't you come out?
And at that time, 22 people, basically the entire executive
team left the mansion and opened the Driscoll.
And then when the Driscoll sold, actually, yeah, for that eight
years of the Driscoll, it did. It did incredible.
And so the owner decided to sell it and he said that, well, I
don't want that to ever happen again.
And so he created his own management company and it's
named after his two daughters, Coralie and Shannon.
So instead of being operators underneath ownership, he created
a management company to protect us moving forward so that we can
have long term contracts. And he asked me to be the Vice
President of food and beverage. So there's only four of us,
there's operations, food and beverage, our CFO and he's the
president. So four of us were the core team
that created that company and, and ended up managing over 16
properties. Some of them we own, some of
them are leases, some of them are licensing agreements.
And so that's kind of where it was born.
So I, I feel very blessed to be part of that because I've just,
I've seen a lot of chefs try to do that on their own and it's
just, it's really tough. It is really tough.
What do you think was the biggest learning curve when you
all were starting as a group to, to start to get those licensing
deals? And how did you differentiate
like, hey, this is a, a property that maybe want to look at his
licensing deal and this is a, a property that maybe we want to,
we want to for ourselves. I mean, it really, you know, our
first gig was the San Anthony Hotel in San Antonio, right?
And so a lot of it was just like when you come into an operation
that is not running smoothly, it just, I mean, it takes two or
three years to get all of those parts and pieces.
And from a chef perspective, it's like, man, you, you walk
into an existing staff, an existing concept, an existing
clientele, an existing, I mean, that's the biggest challenge is
to how you turn that ship and how you can do what you know
needs to be done. And it takes a lot of patience
and a lot of grace and a lot of forgiveness because it's like,
man, the team that you're walking into usually doesn't
want to see you, right, right. And so that transition is always
very difficult. But yeah, I mean, that was the
Saint Anthony was the first gig. And then back to Dallas at the
stoning. So I was commuting, I lived in
Austin. I was driving to San Antonio and
flying to Dallas for like the first two or three years of this
hotel management company. And for people that don't know,
there's a big difference between a management and a licensing and
licensing and management, right? What you know, can you can you
kind of break that down for people that are listening like
it when you're when you're going to the negotiating table with
I'm just going to use fill in the blank hotel.
What are you typically looking at that is the best structure
from a chef's perspective? Is it the is it the licensing?
Is it the management or is it, you know, you want to be more
hands off, you want to be more hands on, and what are some of
the red flags that you're looking for?
Well, I think it's important and we've experienced this.
I'm certainly from a chef perspective side that it's, I
mean, if you're not hands on and that's where the trouble kind of
started is that if I'm commuting, I remember one of the
articles in Dallas from when we renovated the Stone Land, I
launched that restaurant. I was never supposed to be the
chef there, but that was the the market crash.
And so in the article it talked about that I don't even live in
Dallas is. That Leslie Brenner.
Yeah, yeah, I. Think it was yeah.
And so it was like, I, you know, she wasn't wrong, but it's like
that was part of the, the challenge is that it's really
difficult to license your brand or license the concept because
the dependency on all of the other people like it's hard
enough if you're there, let alone if you're not there.
So we have very few licensing agreements.
Most of everything requires us to be hands on.
Most of them were contractual management agreements for the
five years or 10 years or a situation like that, that we
were working directly with the ownership.
So, so for you and your company, you would prefer the licensing
management deal or I'm sorry, the management?
The management deal, yeah, we've got 1 license agreement still to
this day that's at the airport. So second bar in kitchen is it's
the Austin airport and it's more consulting, more quality
control. But I am you know, I designed
the kitchen, I launched it. I trained them up in the
beginning and I've been there, you know, several times over the
last few years to help with quality control.
But I got to depend on this guy or this this girl to maintain
that standard. And it has to be up to them
because it's their employees. And so the challenge comes in
where I mean, you and I both know that any kitchen, like if I
mean that, that culture and that standardization of, of who you
are and what you do and what you put on a plate, it's just if
you're remote or if you're not present, even if you're there,
it's really, really difficult to create that consistency and
quality. And so the idea, I mean,
licensing agreements are, are, are really great and they fill a
purpose and it's very specific on, on that kind of stuff.
But I mean, for me, we found more success in managing it
ourselves and we were hoping to get really, really big.
So I can kind of float around multiple locations as this, you
know, that was another I, you know, unrealistic expectation
because as soon as I walked away or as soon as I got distracted
or as soon as other things came out, immediately quality would
suffer. And then how do you pay somebody
enough to maintain the quality at the location that you don't
have to be there so that it offsets budget?
The economics don't work again, unless you've got multiple,
multiple locations and all this free flowing cash and revenue to
be able to pay for that position.
And it that's just didn't happen.
So when what are you doing? You know, at this point all this
is happening in in in your career.
You have a couple, you have multiple locations.
How are you scaling and maintaining brand standard?
Like is it consistent recipes? Is it are you sending like
photos of every dish? Are you are you just showing up
and you know, losing your mind saying this is not what I said?
How are you maintaining that consistency?
The only brand consistency that we did was with second bar and
kitchen, right? That was our first restaurant
deal. That was our first big, you
know, multi $1,000,000 renovation for the space and our
big launch. And so we ended up having a
total of 5 second mar in kitchens.
I think three were operating at the same time.
And because it was, it was not a cookie cutter scenario.
Yes, the brand could have been, but I'm it's pizza and burgers
and really great stuff. But we didn't start out
expecting the expansion. And so our books and our
standards and our, and all of those things like we were
creating that kind of as we went along, right.
And so when we expanded, all of a sudden it's like, oh, wait,
no, we might not want to do that because it doesn't really work
at that particular location or the equipment's different or
whatever it is. And so I would definitely
encourage if, if your intention is to expand, you got to start
that consistent standard in your SOP's in advance of opening the
first, because then everything kind of trickles back down and
it falls within the parameters or the boundaries of what it is.
So that anybody that goes to any of your locations experiences
that same quality. Because we even had, you know,
the the logo was the same, but uniforms may be different or,
you know, your location is just really, it dictates a whole lot
of the expectation. And so if you've got a brand
that you're trying to plug in, want it.
I just didn't have a lot of fun at that stuff like I, I much
more enjoy the creation of the concept within the walls in the
space of the location that it's in.
And that's why La Corsia and the hospitality group, It's like
most of it was taking existing historic properties and then
figuring out, asking ourselves what is the best option of the
food and beverage product that we can put into here.
That's a whole lot more fun than saying we've got this brand,
let's push it and plug it in into the space.
Sometimes that's not the. Way to go.
You know, and it's a lot more fun to create it on the spot.
Something that I've, I've thought and you know you've
worked in hotels and I've worked in hotels.
The most recent hotel I opened, well, I mean, I opened it in
20/16/2017 open the Fairmont. And when we were, when we were
opening up, I mean, we have, we have the fine dining restaurant,
we have the Italian restaurant, we have the Asian restaurant, we
have the, the Mexican thing over there.
We got the Bar and Grill over here.
And so when you're opening and then you got of course the
cafeteria and family meal and then you got the, the, the
thousand person banquet catering operation.
So you have all these moving parts.
One of the things that I've thought and I'm not sure if you
agree with me, but you've opened, I've opened a lot of
restaurants in one building and you've opened a lot of
restaurants in multiple buildings.
One of the things that I've thought to myself is as a
restaurant group, is it easier to open multiple restaurants at
the same time? Or is it, are you, are you
better off like let's open this one, stay stabilized, wait a
year and then open up the second one.
And the reason I ask that is because in my mind, and, and I
sometimes say this when I'm consulting, it's like, well, if
you're open in one open 2 like you, you only have to build the
SOP twice because I know in a hotel you're opening all of them
on the same day. You have no.
Choice in that team. Right.
You have your directors in place, but you're open like you
have no choice. They're all opening on on
opening day. That that gives me a little
anxiety just hearing hearing that.
But yeah, I would, if you have the choice, definitely at least
space them out a little bit. But if it's the same brand,
that's a little bit different. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's
hard enough, man. You know, I'm, I'm to the age
and points where it's like, man, I don't want to make things a
little easier, not not challenge ourselves to, you know, to just
go through that, that process. But no, I mean, you make a good
point. I mean, it really depends on the
location. It depends on the brand and the
concept and depends on the team. Like we've, we've seen
situations to where we've got a set opening date and we've got
the, you know, we've got the plan in place and it's like.
It's team based. I mean, me and you might be able
to figure XY and Z, but we can't do every single job.
So if you can't find the team and they're trained up enough,
the last thing you want to do is push an opening that you're not
ready for. I mean, you really, especially
in a town like awesome and you get you kind of get one shot,
that first impression, that first meal or that first, you
know, influencer event or whatever it is.
I mean, you've got to be spot on.
So I think those are really risky things to put on paper.
You've got to be able to, you got to be able to pivot, you got
to be able to work around what cards you're dealt with.
And we think that it's all going to work out, but there's always
something that's going to happen.
And so I think it's important to be able to pivot during those
time periods. If you were giving business
advice, you've opened a lot of restaurants, you had a very
successful career. And if you were giving specific
business advice to the people that are just starting out to
say, hey, I want to open up my first restaurant or, or I'm
ready to go from one restaurant to two.
Maybe maybe they're looking to expand.
And there's, there's a, there's a big difference between I've
put all my money into this and it's mine and my partner's
restaurant versus OK, now we're going in as a group and now
there's partnership money. What are some of the the
important things that you think people should know and things
that and the questions they should be asking that they don't
know to ask? Well, I think I don't, I think
it might have been my boss or somebody, but I mean that the
lease, if you're not buying, well, first of all, if you're
buying the property or you're leasing the property, that is
the number one most important thing is what does that lease
look like? All of the nuances and
everything that could possibly go wrong need to be addressed
before you ever take the space. And so the lease is incredibly
important. Can you can you talk about get
more granular like what are the some of those things that need
to be addressed specifically? Garbage like you know that the
triple net or the it's a landlord situation and like when
you talk about the exterior space, the.
Cams. Yeah, the cams.
Yeah, like what? Wait a minute.
The sidewalk is half on the city line and half on property line.
Who cleans that 3 feet of sidewalk?
And when you talk about garbage and you're in a multiple complex
situation, I mean, even the water meter, it's like, where
does this water meter actually register?
And who's paying for that part, part of the deal?
Parking, Oh my gosh, parking is, is massive because you may in
the least, oh, you've got 10 spots, but is that 24 hours a
day? Or is it only during operating
hours or where does your team park the list go on and on as
far as the utilities are concerned and the expenses are
concerned, they have nothing to do necessarily with running a
restaurant for food and beverage.
So those are some of the pitfalls and that I mean, gosh,
you know, five year lease or a 10 year lease and triple net.
And you know, I mean, it's you don't know what to ask for
unless you've kind of already been through it.
And so those are the things that I would kind of look for because
it's not the people are out to get you.
It's just, and sometimes the ownership or the people that own
the property also don't know either.
And so then when a problem happens or you're not busy or
there's COVID or there's something that happens, all of a
sudden now you're at a table trying to figure out, well, wait
a minute, you know, and that happened, that happened to us
during COVID too. It's like, wait a minute, we
need rent assistance because we can't afford rent because
nobody, I mean, it's shut down. Like that's not our fault.
And so that that's an extreme example because nobody wrote in
their lease what would happen if there was a total economic
shutdown. Is that now being negotiated?
I think, yeah, I think that's a deal.
I think that's got to be in your new plans because you know.
What is it called? A Like a force majeure or yeah.
Act of God or act of nature. And it's like, yeah, that's got
to be in there because, you know, we know that restaurants
operate in such a slim margin. And so if you're not
anticipating what happens when those margins aren't handled,
you've got to have a Plan B and usually a Plan C to be able to
impact that kind of stuff. And and are you looking at like
like TI money? So hey, we need to take care of
this before we even, yeah, before we even start this.
Yeah. And how do you know TI mean
what, who, who, where's that rate and what's the market on
the TI? And we, we've seen it to where,
Oh my gosh, we got, we don't have to worry about anything.
But then we've seen it towards a white box and it's like, oh, OK,
well, a white box to you might be different to me if the
plumbing is stubbed out or I've got to hire now a plumber to
actually do the final hookups and all that kind of stuff.
So I mean, it's, it's easy to take it for granted because the
chefs are so excited to get just let me cook this, let's get the
stove delivered. Let's, let's get moving.
But all of those pennies and Dimes really, really can add up
quickly. If you're, if you're over
budget, which most are, and then you start out and now you're now
you've got owners and investors that are like, wait a minute,
we, you promised us this return in 12 months.
Where's the return? They're not looking at
everything that just happened over the last 24 months to build
out and all of those unforeseen circumstances.
So that's, and that can be pretty conflicting because it's
like, man, we still believe in you.
We still believe in the concept, we still believe in the product.
But now we're over budget by $200,000, which skews all of the
return. Now you're working harder and
trying to do more than you really were designed to do.
And so that if you didn't include that into the performer.
And for people that don't a little harder, can you explain
what the performance is so. Performance.
Basically what you think you're going to do on paper, backed by
numbers and seat counts and. They're usually a little
embellished. Well, yeah, they are, yeah.
We're we're going to do 2 turns every night.
Two turns every night, our check average is, you know, 65.
And it's like, yeah, you, I mean, you embellish them because
not only you're not really manipulating it, but it's really
what you hope to do, you know, right.
But if that's what your investment is based on and then
you don't perform when you do your.
Performance. Do you typically go in and say,
here's my base case, here's my aggressive and yeah, here's my.
Depends on who you're talking to.
Depends on who we're asking money for.
You know, you know, is it a bank?
Is it an individual? Internally, yeah.
Internally, Oh yeah, internally we got a baseline.
It's break even. Like what do we need?
How much do we need to do just to pay for everything and
whatever that break even thing is?
What are the red flags that that you're looking at that make you
say I need to walk away from this deal?
To me, it's always come down to trust.
I think it really in every relationship, if there's a trust
or an integrity issue or if you see decisions that are being
made that just aren't morally correct and you don't jive as
far as the ability to work stuff out.
If if you're finding struggle within the basic understanding
of the budgets before you even start to build or arguments on
how we're going to approach things, that's a huge red flag.
Because when real problems happen, if I can't trust you to
help me figure out the problem or you've got your own best
interest in mind that supersedes the business, then it's just
going to get worse and worse and worse.
So if we can't solve a small problem on what kind of cups
we're going to use or we want straws or man Boo or whatever,
then when something really bad happens, a lawsuit or somebody
slips and falls or something like that, if you're like, you
know, hands up and that's your problem, all of a sudden you're
already in the middle of it. And so you really can't back out
of it without ramifications. So ask those hard questions,
figure out those smaller problems in advance before the
deal is signed because it's all relational.
I mean, the hospitality industry, I mean, it's 100%
relation. And if you don't trust your
partners and if you can't count on your partners to come through
with real moral standards and having integrity about what is
best for your customers and best for your team and best for the
business, that's you. You got to, you got to step out
pretty quick. As a as a chef and also
restaurateur, sometimes we view things from the creative
standpoint and sometimes we, we, we aren't selling that creative
food, right. You meant, you mentioned earlier
how you were doing pizzas and burgers and they sell every,
everyone could, everyone could relate to that.
That's right, right. But not everyone could relate to
the very fancy foie gras dish with the Peach Jam or whatever,
right? Can't relate to that one.
Not everyone can. How do you know when to pull
back culinary wise and show show restraint?
Because I think a lot of young chefs sometimes, like, I just
want to do my food. Yeah, I want, I want to do my
food. That's it.
Like all I care about is I can't wait to become sous chef so I
can do, I can get my dish on the menu.
I can't wait to be the executive chef so I can tell you exactly
how I want my food. And then you.
And then you realize that doesn't always work.
No, no, yeah, that's a that's a hard Rd. man, because even
today, like if I were open up a restaurant tomorrow, my first
question is what is it that people are going to enjoy the
most? What do the guests expect and
how can I exceed their expectations?
My food, I don't know, man. It's like, I mean, there may be
a time in my, in my later years where I can open up a restaurant
with 10 seats and take it or leave it, buy a ticket if you
want. I'm kind of almost creating
that, but I'm not there yet. But the, that's really the only
platform that I see that even coming close to working.
Everything else has to be what works in the setting.
And I mean, my food can be a whole lot of stuff.
And if you're pitching holed into doing your food, oh, I
think, you know, when chefs wants to do only their own food,
it it automatically like I get the feeling that you're just
separating yourself from what you need because you need other
people and you need happy guests and you need paying customers.
And so if you're in AI mean if you're if you're not worried
about revenue and if you're not worried about investment, you're
not worried about how much things cost.
OK, maybe, you know, we were really blessed to have second
bar and kitchen and Congress in the same building.
So I got to go over to Congress restaurant Congress and have
chef tasting menus five nights a week, dinner only with 40 seats.
Like who? I mean, that's just that's
unheard of really, because that was the playground.
One staff, one team, one saute cook, one food runner.
So that training mechanism enabled us to do really
incredible food. And because it was prefix and
chef's tasting like that was the expectation.
So we could do AI mean I pushed the edge quite a bit.
And then in second bar it's like, OK, well, if you we give
you both, if you want to have this, then go over here, have a
great burger and pizza and we did pasta and yonky and all
kinds of stuff. But in Congress it was like you
kind of knew what you were getting.
So we set that bar pretty high and set the expectation, but it
still wasn't. I mean, my that approach was a
collaboration between I worked with Rebecca Meeker and she was
CDC for a long time for Joel Rubashon.
It was like, why would I, I mean, I, I want it, I want more
of that. Like how can we collaborate?
And some of those dishes were collaboration, the best dishes
that we've ever done because it was a mutual creative process.
And I found the end result from the guest seeing that and
tasting that and walking through it was just that was that stuff
was pretty solid. When you look at the economics
of two different restaurant models, yeah.
So so you have, you know, the tasty menu restaurant and then
you have the more casual spot. What are some of the pros and
cons of of each one? If you were if you were talking
to chefs right now that are listening that say I want to
open up my restaurant, which one do I do 1st?
And what are the pros and cons? The moment you became sous chef,
the rules changed. You can't drink with the crew
anymore. You can't look the other way
anymore. You can't be liked and respected
at the same time. Caesar's not above the law.
And neither of you, the sous chef, blueprint the manual that
nobody handed you when you got promoted.
Get it at Chefs psa.com. Gosh.
It was, I mean our best year in that concept I think we're at.
Which concept? Second market kitchen and
combined, so second in Congress, you know, through that, through
that process, I think we were at like 5 and a half million in
food and beverage and this was in 2000.
And this combined with the two. Yeah, combined, yeah.
And you know, the casual restaurant was more like 3 1/2
and Congress was like 2. The amount of energy and money
and staff, but also reflected that a lot more time, a lot more
hours and a lot more staff to be the casual restaurant than it
did for the for the high end cost percentages.
As far as profit margins, same thing.
Our profit margin was higher, so.
Higher in the more casual, yeah. And so.
So you're, you said you're doing 3 million and your profit is
what you know, 1015%, yeah, or the other one's doing 2 million
And is your profit 10:50 or is it smaller, smaller 2 to 3%?
It's a lot of fun. Yeah, you know, so you do.
Your own food. That's what I'm saying those
economics really matter because how long do you really want to
do your own food for and how long do you want to push that
edge? And everything needs to work in
order for that to be a long term deal.
And we've seen them and we, we know that the top 10s in the in
the world's list and stuff like that.
But I mean, you, you see that outcome, but you don't see the
years and planning the years and processing all the money behind
what it takes for that. And then the team that you've
got to have, because restaurants are only as good as your team
is. And your team's based on people
and people change and people grow and people break and people
have issues. And so it's it's just such.
A and and with which? Makes it so incredibly exciting
too. But.
With, with fine dining, you know, and that and that tasty
menu style and looking at there's some people that have
done it for years. And you know, if you look at the
French laundries and the Danielles and the Jean Georges
and La Bernadine. And then in Texas, you could
say, well, there's probably, you know, you got Steven, you got
Dean. They did it for a long time.
But even that they don't do that, no.
They don't do that, no. And I think things are changed.
I think the time is, is saying I think people want they do want
more casual. They want something that is
relatable. They want to dress how they
want. They want to be in and out if
they choose and they want to be able to kind of decide their own
adventure. And I heard it the other day,
it's like, man, I don't want to go anywhere that I couldn't,
that I'd know how to cook the stuff.
I mean, which is kind of powerful.
It's like because people are trained, I mean, in today's
market, your clientele is more educated, more skillful at their
home kitchen, doing their own parties, doing all of their own
cooking. If they come to your restaurant,
they're not going to spend 30 bucks on an entree that they
just made it home three nights ago, right?
So, you know, whether that's social or whether that's
Internet or just people are just more encouraged from all of the
information. And I mean, the love of cooking
has been spread and all the tools and information are much
more accessible. So you got to, you know, you got
to push it a little bit, but in a setting that is approachable,
acceptable, economical and just something that makes it, I mean,
it's a lot of it's about a fun vibe too.
You know, of course you've got to have good food and.
It's a price, price of entry. Yeah, like come out.
Yeah, right. I mean, that's let's, let's get
real. It's not you can't succeed if
you don't have those, right. But what are you going to do in
as far as enticing those guests to kind of come back?
I, I, I often think about and I'm, I'm, I'm penning a book
right now. I'm almost done with about
midway done. I'm going to give it a plug
right now. It's called the sous chef
blueprint. Nice.
And in one of the chapters, I talk about food cost because a
lot of a lot of the challenges that sous chefs, when you're
going from cook to sous chef, one of the questions I used to
teach me about food costs, like it's not that it's probably not
as difficult as you think because it's a formula and you
probably plug it into Excel and got it.
But the real food cost is happening on the floor, right?
It's when you cut your steaks wrong or the, or you're throwing
everything away because you didn't use it.
That's right. That's where the food cost is
happening. Or it's the dishes that are not
selling. Right, Right.
So I could teach you the formula that'll take you, you know, 5
minutes to learn, but it's all this other stuff that's going to
take you years. Much more organic than that.
Right. And so when we think about
mentorship and we talk about the things that we need to teach the
next generation, and I know you're big on mentorship because
obviously having a lot of restaurants, that means you have
a lot of people that are looking up to you.
And you also have a responsibility for all these
people that are looking up to you and, and seeking your time.
When you walk in the kitchen, it's like, oh, can, is he going
to talk to me, right? Is he going to spend a little
bit of time with me? How do you view mentorship in
that role? First, I want to ask you how you
view mentorship in that role. And then I want to ask you how
you view mentorship in the role that you're in now?
I kind of was mentored in the beginning, which I think set a
little bit of a standard for me. So Dean Faring in Dallas, it was
the same thing. When I walked in that kitchen, I
was 19 and saw this, you know, bigger than life.
I mean, there was 50 cooks and I mean, they're doing 12 million
in revenue. I mean, it was like, Oh my gosh,
right. Just insane.
You know, I think my prep list said it was 150 items or
something. And I'm 19 as a veg cook making
7/25 an hour, right? And I'll never forget it was
like the first, the first real shift.
He bee lined it towards me. Hey, how you doing?
I'm Dean, good to see you. And he said hi and he said
goodbye every day to every, to every cook.
And I was like, man, that's that's super cool.
And I still do that to this day because that that connection of,
of being real with your team always, always kind of sat with
me. It's a good baseline of respect
established. And so he didn't run a kitchen
of fear. And so I carried that with me
too. It's like I wanted every every
kitchen that I ran. Not only did I make one-on-one
connection with the team, but I let them know very specifically
that it's OK to ask a question. It's actually OK to screw up.
And I want you to be comfortable in your mistakes because I'm
going to find out anyway. And so let's just have a good
relationship. I'm here for you, you're here
for me. Let's work together, not as a
dictator kind of fear based kitchen and that's that's proven
to be pretty successful for my teams in the past.
I'm going to go on a side tangent, a story that I think
you would appreciate. So I had a restaurant in Dallas,
Marquis Grill, right? And I'm, I'm the executive chef
and Dean comes in with his two sons and they're having dinner,
right? It's a Sunday night, restaurants
pretty slow and I happen to be working.
So I go and talk to Dean and he's really happy.
He's liking the food. He's like, I haven't been here
before because we just reconcepted.
So now we have an Asian restaurant upstairs and and, you
know, more American style downstairs.
And he says, give me a tour. I want to see the place.
Like, absolutely. So I take him upstairs and I'm
showing him around. And I notice these two beautiful
women sitting in the corner just looking at us like, Oh my God,
that's the shaft. And I'm like, yeah, that's
pretty cool. You know, like, yeah, I'm the
chef, right? That's me.
I have the chef and I'm showing Dean around and whatever.
And then they stand up from their table and they come up to
us and they say, we're so sorry. Can we get a, can we get a
photo? And I'm like, absolutely.
And they hand me the camera. They hand me the camera so they
can take a picture. With Dean.
And the two girls, and I'm like, if people don't understand what
a big deal Dean was in Dallas at that time, he still is.
He still is. He still is.
But like, he was a legend. Like people are asking to take a
picture with him in my restaurant.
And it's so funny because Dean's a class act, he says.
Andre's a good chef, too. Let's make sure he.
Gets a good picture. And I just remember thinking,
thank you, Dee, but it was like, it was like, so funny.
Like they're handing me the camera so they could get a photo
with me. It was too funny.
But he's a great chef. He is.
He is, yeah. And I mean, it was funny,
though, because when when we left the mansion, I didn't know
that that was part of the other 20 people.
And I actually was on vacation. I came back to give my
resignation, but that previous week and 15 other executives
were already put in their notice.
So he was already, he was already teed up.
He was going to the Ritz at that.
Point no, no, this is when we all when we all left to to
Austin track back in backtracking a little bit.
But he was one of the guys that said, why are you going to
Austin? There's nothing in Austin.
And so we've had conversations since then.
I was like, he's like, you know, I mean, you know, we're not
always, we're not always right. Well, you, you talk about
licensing deals and I don't know the inner workers of Dean's deal
at Ritz Carlton, but I when I remember when I saw that and
that happened, he left the mansion to go to Ritz Carlton, I
was like, that's the deal. That's the deal.
That's the fairings at the Ritz. Yeah, that's, yeah, that's been
going strong for a long time. I don't know if this is true so
I'm just making shit up so people this don't take this as
fact. This is just rumors, industry
rumors. I've heard that Fairings is like
the most profitable restaurant in Ritz Carlton.
I've heard that before. I don't know if.
That's true, but. Makes the most amount of money.
It sounds true. That that rattlesnake bar there.
Yeah, great restaurant and and Dean's a legend that going back
to Iron Chef. No, no offense to to Bobby.
Like he's got a podcast that's competing against mine.
So sorry. Sorry, Bobby.
We love you, Bobby. Yeah.
Yeah, like, thank you for coming into my show into my like, you
weren't winning with Iron Chef and everything.
I lost. To him.
So I've got to give him some a hard time because it's like,
well, obviously you know, I've got some I, I wanted a rematch.
No, I've, I've listened to his podcast.
His podcast is good. Actually, I've, I've listened to
a couple of his episodes and he's actually someone I would
love to have on here because I'm sure he has stories and I feel
like as he's gotten older, he's loosened up a little bit and.
The growth is important because I knew what I thought and felt
back then. And when you, when you have that
much publicity and you have that much pressure, you have that
many restaurants and everybody is just kind of all over you.
So I I'm much more, I guess understanding and I've never
been at Bobby's level as far as that level of attention, but
I've gotten a little taste of it and I'm sure I've come across.
People have their stories about you.
Yeah, right. And it's like, no, that's not
me, you know? That's not who I who I really
AM. And so again, I, yeah, it's just
one of those things, man. Yeah, it's funny.
It's there's that old expression, things that you'll
never remember and they'll never forget.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure I've, I've
run some people there. Yeah.
I mean, I'm sure I'm there with you.
It's I think about this often. It's like as culture has
transitioned so much in culinary, when I left cooking in
2022 professionally, I stopped being a chef and I walked away.
I thought like, I am the best version of a chef that I've ever
been. Like, like I not just culinary
wise, but just understanding culture and developing talent
and creating a respectful kitchen.
And I, and I thought, you know what, I'm going to literally
write the book, which I have. I've written several books on
leadership and management, but even then I would change things
down. Like I look at it's like, no, I
disagree with some of the things that I thought that.
Yeah, Yeah. Well, the organics of it, what
we do is so it's not you just can't plug and play.
I mean it's it changes all the time, right.
I mean, our current environment from social and economics and
and what we deal with everyday absolutely impacts the
hospitality industry and we have to respond to those things,
right. And you talk about culture, it's
like culture changes too. We think that, you know, back
that this was acceptable and this was the the right choice
and this was the right environment to create.
But people's lives are changing all the time, you know, and what
age and all that kind of stuff. So I think it's not it's not a
good. We would all benefit from
understanding that the culture that we create inside of a
kitchen is not a one and done thing.
It has to change and it has to be transitional based on what
the world is like the particular day.
And with, you know, I know we were talking about AI before,
before we started recording. Great example.
Yeah. But I think as AI is evolving
and it's evolving fast, like how quickly AI evolves.
And I, I work with it on a daily basis because it helps me
operate my businesses. But one of the things is I'm
writing this book and I told you I'm, I'm about to release this
book. One of the chapters in there is
like a young sous chef or a young cook that's in the
industry right now. Like, excuse me, start over.
A young cook or a young sous chef that's in the industry
right now. One of the things that I think
is going to happen and I'm going to put a pin in it because I'm
hopefully I can come back to this episode and say, Hey, I
told you this is this is a reality is I think that the way
AI is so advanced right now and how quickly it scrapes the
Internet. Like I said, it gave me a whole
30 minute podcast that I listened to on you on the way
here, on the way here, right and.
My favorite part is when AI is like, oh, welcome back or man,
that's really good, or you're going to really like that later
or whatever it is, like the compliments because it knows you
and what you're doing. It's like that's that's pretty
insane. So it keeps.
It keeps. You, what I think AI is going to
do. I I think, and I'm going to put
this in the book because I think, like the Internet is
filled with shitty comments. Yeah, like social media is
filled with shitty comments. And I think what people need to
worry about is what's going to happen when you go to a job and
they interview you and they have their AI scrape all your
Internet comments. Yeah, yeah.
And they say, hey, before I hire this person, can you show me all
his shitty comments? Oh my God.
Or all her shitty comments, right.
Of everything they'd. Ever said.
Ever said online? Online and it's like I don't
need all, I just need the shitty ones.
Yeah, yeah. Just give me top 10.
Give me the top 10 shittiest comments and then and then you
realize, wait a minute, were you were you commented on my post
two years ago about how shitty my food was and now you're
applying here, right? Yeah, let's talk about that.
Yeah. So as I was thinking about.
Appropriate pictures too. Inappropriate.
Like all this is like, you know what?
Because we do that right now, you get an application, I'm
going to Facebook to see your profile and all your stuff,
right? But I'm doing it manually and.
It's you do it manually. You know, 20 minutes per
candidate. But now you could tell they just
give me all the questionable things that they've ever posted
online, just that and all the questionable comments they've
ever shared online that and that's going to be a real thing.
Yeah, that's going to be a real thing.
That's. Going to be a real.
Interview. Basically interview this person
in advance before they show. It tell me everything I need to
know about them, every. Every little shitty detail about
their life, You think that's not gonna happen?
That's gonna happen. That's that's three months away.
Yeah, yeah. Oh my.
Gosh, yeah. So for people that are listening
right now, like think think twice before you comment that
you didn't like that chef's sketch your.
Social is pretty good. Because I'm, I'm gonna make sure
I don't delete that comment anymore.
I'm gonna keep it right there for everyone to see.
Yeah. Good stuff.
When you talk about mentorship, you know, I, I want to go.
Sorry. That's OK.
We we, we got off subject here. But when we're talking about
mentorship, one one of the things that how do you mentor a
young cook? How do you mentor a sous chef
and how do you mentor an executive chef that's working
underneath you? And how how different are those
styles? Man, well, I think there's
baseline to it. I mean, I think again that that
culture, what the culture that we try to create is not there's
no, what am I trying to say it it's set meaning this is the
culture, this is the boundary, this is what we stand for and
this is how we're going to operate.
Now, within that, there's individual programs, training
mechanisms, relationships that are based on the individual.
And a lot of times we'll hire individuals based on who they
are and what their talent is and create a position around who
they are, what they're coming with.
And we've had the opportunity. Not everybody has that
opportunity. But yeah, I mean, a young cook
mentorship is very, very different.
You know, I mean, we've got to make sure that they've got the
opportunity to ask all the questions and there's constant
follow up and follow through and more time spent.
Sous chefs should be coming with a lot more experience.
And so it's refining what they are bringing to the table and
it's also giving them continued education.
So if they're hungry enough to already have gone through the
processes and get to that level, my job is to make sure that
they're continuing to learn and not just in the kitchen, but
also, you know, we've, we've done the farm tour thing and
we've done, you know, gone to Texas A&M and watched their
entire processing. And so getting hooked up with
other companies and programs that can teach them something
else outside of your kitchen has been really beneficial or going
and staging to other, you know, some chefs like, heck no, you're
mine and you're not like we, we celebrated that.
No, have it as much experience as you possibly can.
And so because you're going to do that, we we thought you're
going to do that anyway, right. And so whether you do it in
secret or whether you do it in a program, and we want you to get
as much education as you possibly can.
And, and for executive chefs, it's like, man, let's have real
conversations about what your goals are long term.
What are you trying to contribute?
What makes you tick? And how can I, how can I support
you? It's, it's the irony, right?
Because a sous chef is supposed to, you're supposed to make my
job easier. Yes.
But if I make your job easier and put you in a position of
success, my job automatically gets better.
So we were, we were really trying to focus on the
individual's expectations again, but after the culture and
boundaries and standards and expectations are set, it really
becomes individualistic on who you are and what you really
want. I mean, every single, you know
this, I mean, every chef that you've ever worked with, it's
different just because they're a chef.
They come from different backgrounds.
They've got different family life, they've got different
cuisine in their background or taste that they're looking for.
Oh my gosh. And so if you don't know that
about your number one or your number twos or even your, your
first line cook, the conversations end up being
pretty dull and stale. And I'm just telling you what to
do. And nobody really wants to be
told what to do. I want you to do the work
because you're excited about it. You know the expectation, you
know that you're going to be held accountable, but then you
get to contribute and be part of the process and not just going
through the motions because you think that's what we want and
expect. And we've done training guys and
manuals and spent years and developing the paper side to it.
And as soon as we have an opening and everybody signs off
and we talked about it for three months and here's these five
steps. Or, you know, second second
nature hospitality we developed from from second bar.
And if if you're not willing to do that every single day in the
work environment, you might as well just throw the other stuff
right in the trash. I, I used the, you know, in
operations that I've run and even in books that I've written,
I always say it's like, it's not what's written down, it's what
you act upon, right? Because if the culture says
these are the standards, but no one follows them, then it
doesn't matter. The standards are what people
act upon, right? Those are the real standards
that in, in the operation. You could say this to your, you
could say we always fold our towels and it's in the manual,
But if no one folds our towels, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.
It's. What?
That's the new standard? Because that's how everybody
folds the towels, right? Right.
That's the new standard. What's the real standard is
what's in in action. That's right.
What you can see in action? Yeah.
I want to ask you because you're doing something really cool
right now. You've when we were, when we
were talking, you're like, I'm busier than I've ever been,
like, and you've kind of stepped into this whole new world.
Can you tell people what's your new project?
How did we get here? It's wild.
It is wild, yeah. So I, you know, we've been
praying to kind of get out of the business for, for a few
years, you know, because it's still nice on weekends and, and
all the fab and all the Expo and all the holidays.
And so when we moved to Mineral Wells from Austin and opened and
launched another second bar kitchen at the crazy water
hotel, It's, it's got 15,000 people, right?
I grew up in a small town in upstate New York, so it wasn't
like a culture shock. I mean, it was from Austin to
there, but I realized that our industry is somewhat broken.
And I think I was put into the position and had the opportunity
to finally create not just a, I guess encouraging culture, but
really have a position to where I can help change a little bit
of the community's expectation. Right.
When you say that you feel like the industry is a little bit
broken, can you be specific? Well, in, in, in mental health,
right? Because part of the story and
part of the answer is that my wife and I are both now
Christian faith-based counselors and have created a nonprofit to
eradicate the stigma mental health, and that's called the
Mineral Wellness Center. And we spend a great on the
executive director of this nonprofit.
And we realized very quickly that not just in a small town, I
think it's everywhere that people are still afraid to seek
help when they have any issues from addiction or grief or
things that they're encountering.
And I think kitchens and restaurants and hospitality in
general don't do a good job in taking care of the mental health
of their of their employees. And I think it's kind of on the
fringe. I think it's getting a lot
better. And I just set out when we
opened this last restaurant to be very open and very diligent
about making sure that the mental health of our team was a
priority. And very quickly it turned into
a nonprofit and very quickly. I mean, I'm, I'm counseling, you
know, several people a week on helping them navigate their
purpose and their plan and their true identity in Christ and
finding ways around what they thought their life was supposed
to be and what their expectations were.
And then when you, when you put into the hospitality side, we
are, we are trained to grind like we're trained.
I mean, burnout is almost a badge of honor versus an issue
that people kind of. Recognize until it's not.
Until it's not right, you know? And I think for so many years,
we, we viewed burnout or, you know, like, hey, I'm not going
to call off. I'm, I'm going to work through
the illness or all of that until something real, real happens.
And I always like to, I'll use the example of saying it's not
until you feel real physical pain, real financial pain or
real emotional pain that you realize like, hey, what what's
going on here? Yeah, I need to address.
Something I need to address something and yeah, whether
it's, and, and you know, the culture of, of, you know,
alcohol and drugs, I mean, it's do whatever you've got to do to
show up. And I mean our slogans to make
it happen, right? At whatever cost.
And when does, when does cost become too much?
And too often what happens is that it's such a, an expectation
to do your job at all cost. When it doesn't work, you kind
of your only choice is to leave and then go isolate because you
can't. I mean, that failure option
doesn't really exist. And so people are afraid to
fail. So then all of a sudden, if that
culture doesn't promote your, your mental health, there's
nowhere to, there's nowhere to go.
What do you say, you know, or who do you say it to?
And if you're chefs and everybody else around you is
like, come on, man, let's go. The idea that you're going to
share something that you're dealing with just doesn't exist.
And we didn't set out to like be this big, you know, we, we've
got all the answers. It's just that I really, I
really wanted to take the opportunity to make sure that
people felt safe enough to say I'm not well.
I don't, I don't feel good. I'm struggling with this.
I'm experiencing this. And the end result is that, I
mean, we've literally created a nonprofit specifically to help
people get restored and have a safe, encouraging place that
they can talk about stuff. And we've, we've seen dramatic
life changes just by providing a space.
And you know, we host something called Farmhouse Fellowship
where we invite all of the other local nonprofits and any leaders
or organizers in the community to gather around the table and
just talk about what they're dealing with, what their wins
are, what their struggles might be.
And if in the first meeting, people are like, I don't, I'm
not sharing nothing like I don't, this is my nonprofit.
We, we fight for the same funding.
I'm not saying anything. And now after two years, like
there's connections being made between the Senior Center and
Meals on Wheels and connections between Grace House Pregnancy
Center and, you know, Casa. So it's, you see this life
change of people, once they actually have the courage enough
to speak the truth about how they feel or what they need,
that's when real life change can happen.
And so, yeah. And I I no longer am the
executive chef or VP of I'm still the vice president of the
courtship, but I'm not, this is the first time in my career that
I've not been running a restaurant as a chef, and it's
freaking me out a little bit. But yeah, yeah, what's that
like? I don't man, at first I was
like, this is terrifying. I I I was emailing myself just
to make sure my e-mail was working right.
Right. Because I'm like, we talked
about this like where's? The 100 emails like you know,
and you get used and even for me like I've got, you know, you
know myself talk is good and I can talk myself out a lot of
stuff. But this is, you know, I had to
adjust between that high octane level of stress management to
not and was it hard? Yeah.
How long did it take you? Oh gosh.
I think I'm still dealing with it.
Yeah. How long has it been?
Our last service was October 26th.
Yeah. So it's been 5 months or?
So it took me about 8 months to turn it off.
Yeah, it's because I was. Still waking up, checking my
phone. I'm still looking for.
It what's the problem? And I was also still meddling.
Yeah, you know what I mean? Like I was still meddling in in
the operations from afar. Yeah, so I do.
I mean, I, I do. I also work for our church.
So I'm the, I'm the, I'm the first impressions hospitality
coordinator to coordinate 120 volunteers for our local church.
Executive director of the nonprofit.
We're opening up a, a store slash coffee slots, coffee shop
slash chef table restaurant with grab and go.
It's, it's, it's, that's a crazy story.
That's called R&D, not research and development.
It's called restored and delivered and we're about to
open like next month. And I I haven't even written the
menu. Yeah, I'm sure I'm not worried
about it. I'm sure you're not worried
about it either. I'm not, but it's like it's such
a this is the first time that I've done it 100% on my own and
100% of our own money and that literally the hood's going in
today. And you know, I mean, the hood's
like 15 grand. Yeah, it's very expensive,
right? Yeah, probably.
Make sure it's probably. The cheapest hood that I've ever
operated in, but it's my money so it's like, what is?
This is right. What do you mean it's different
when? It's 15 grand, you crazy.
Thank God it's not solid fuel, right?
Yeah, yeah. It's like, can I just burn stuff
outside, you know? So no, it's a big deal.
And that that meant going back to the mentorship, like I think
it's, it's setting the tone really in any, in any
profession, I think it's really important that your staff feel
safe enough to talk to you about real issues and real struggles,
not to be afraid to share and be vulnerable and stuff.
And then we've just seen it. We've seen that happen.
And as soon as that culture exists and they're safe and they
don't get criticized or there's no ramifications based on it,
then the team becomes tighter, productivity increases and
people do. It's just a better environment.
So what you're doing is incredible and very commendable.
Thank you for doing that. Because I think more chefs are
opening themselves up to this and more chefs are also
realizing the importance of it. But with that being said, and I
think you and I came up in a very similar era, there's a lot
of chefs that are going to be reluctant to to hear this.
And maybe you don't want to accept change there.
Like we said, the industry is going this direction.
The train is going that way whether you whether you like it
or not. Like this is where it's headed
for people that don't even know where to begin a chef out there
that's listening and they want to start incorporating some best
practices into their own operation.
What are a couple of things that you would advise to the general,
to the general chef community like, hey, here's some simple
things that you could do right now to start taking care of
mental health issues in your in your operation?
Well, setting the standard, just like you do with your food and
just like you operate as a leader, part of that needs to be
also being vulnerable enough to ask yourself if I'm OK and if
there's something that I need to help with myself, care or my
mental health. You know, because you can't talk
about it if you're not willing, you can't instigate something
that you're not willing to also do yourself.
And I think, you know, if the chef is never taking any time
off, if he's always, if you, if you see yourself chef stressed
out and burned out, you can't really that's the culture that's
going to be set because all of your team is going to want to
lead or live up to that expectation.
So the chef actually making a decision to say no, no, there
needs to be, you know, life balance.
We've heard that term a million times, but actually put that
into motion and encouraging people with the scheduling and
time off or taking vacations. I mean, that's the baseline to
it. Get rid of shift drinks will be
a huge thing. I can't tell you how many times
that people are in the middle of struggling with addiction.
And the entire team or the chef has the shift drink.
What are you going to do? Like your line cook is been
sober for four months and everybody's having a shift
drink. Like that stuff can't can't
continue, right. And so, you know, that was a
policy we instigated a long, long time ago.
But because you've got to respect everybody else's
journey. But if you're the boss and
here's your after shift drink, but you're the one that's
struggling with addiction, how does that work, right.
And so those choices, I think are really important to make and
and just having those one-on-one conversations, We know that one
on ones are important and having that weekly, or I mean, at the
very least monthly, but ask the questions, how are you doing not
just performance in the kitchen, but hey man, what's going on in
your life? How's your family?
What are you doing for fun? When's the last time that you
got some rest or took a day out? Like having real conversations
so you can navigate from there. Most, I mean, I mean, I can't
tell you how many times it's not really a question on how you
know, are you, are you suffering?
It's where are you suffering and what's hurting you the most
right now? What is it that you need
mentally? What do you need to be in?
You know, how can I encourage you?
How can I lift you up? How can I fill in and making
that the the standard practices? Yeah.
You know, a lot of the you know, we're referencing kitchens that
we came up and and a lot of other people, you know, was that
that that that grind until you drop mentality.
But I also think like we didn't know better.
These conversations were not being.
Had they weren't. You know, and I sometimes I, I,
I don't want to judge chefs of that generation harshly because
it just, it just. We were it.
We were. Doing wasn't a conversation.
No, no, like there. There wasn't a conversation
here, so the it's like you can't worry about what was what
happened that. What can you do today, correct?
What can you do today that's correct and start building
systems and culture around it? That's right, chef.
Wrap up questions. I want to ask you some specific
food questions and pick your brain a little bit.
Yeah, Yeah. When you're in the kitchen and
it's your way, what kind of salt are you using?
Oh my gosh, the salt question. The salt.
Question. Yeah.
I always like to have, well, three 3 salts on head at all.
Times like What's your all-purpose workhorse?
Kosher. Is it diamond crystal Mortons?
Diamonds. Diamond Yeah, yeah.
And then was your finishing salt.
And it's it's, I just love Maldon.
Yeah, that's OK. Yeah.
No, it's, it's that's what I use.
Yeah. I hope it's OK.
Yeah. Floor to cell and Maldon would
be the would be the finishing options for sure.
I'm a Maldon person. I like, I like crunching it a
little bit. I like my fingers.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I feel like floor to cell isn't as crunchable.
Nope, right. It's almost ready to go and I
like the idea of of crunching it in my hands when I'm doing the
final seasoning. When you're on your workstation
and you have a all-purpose, a general finishing asset.
Now I know there might be some nuance between dish if it's
vinegar, but is it is it typically a citrus?
Is it, is it vinegar? What do you finish most citrus?
Yeah, yeah. Is there a preferred?
No, well, I think it's based on the cuisine that you're cooking
in. I mean, you know, lemon is is
probably the easiest to go to, but not just the juice,
certainly the Rhine and A and a quick zest on something that's
pretty cool too, you know, and usually I'll have because we all
going back to the food cost thing.
You want to maximize your product.
So whether you're making a lemon oil or a lemon garlic vinegar or
whatever it may be, those are also some some tricks that you
can maximize the flavor from instead of just a squeeze.
Right, right, right. There's levels of that acidity
that you can pre prep and pre plan and have them kind of ready
to go and that, you know, that sometimes makes the difference.
All the difference between a good meal and a great meal is
the ability to finish with acid and salt.
Do you have a specific way that you make plate wipes that you
like them done? Oh gosh, yeah, we call them
Brownie towels, but you know, they're they're not paper towel.
I think they are brownie brand. But yeah, I mean, we'll cut
them. You got to fold them the edges.
They're like a like a torque a chick towel or something.
Like that. Yeah, exactly.
They got red stripes on them, but they make about 8 plate
wipes per per towel. But they've got to be exactly
the same. The edges got to be folded in.
We use rubber bands to, you know, and that perfect little
box, a little bit of water in it, ready to go.
Straight water, vinegar, just water, just water.
Yeah. OK.
So is there something that you you do that might be unique to
the kitchens that you run that you feel that bring an intense
amount of flavor or it's like sneaky umami or anything like
that that's like, hey, here's a little tip from me to you that
is going to make your food taste better.
Oh, man, we've done brown butter for quite a while, but we use,
after we do the brown butter, we strain the milk solids out of it
and it's the caramelized milk solids.
And then, I mean, we just call it liquid gold because then
we'll add a little bit of the butter back to it.
And that spread, whether it's in sauteed vegetables or just on
top of a piece of fish. And so, yeah, I mean, it takes
several pounds to get a little bit and then you can dry it and
then grind it and you crumble. Normalize milk salads.
Let's talk about that brown butter for a second.
Yeah, Yeah. Hot debate right now.
It's gonna get us all in trouble.
No. When you're making brown butter,
do you stir it constantly or do you not touch?
It I don't touch it. I don't touch it either.
Good for you. I don't, you don't.
Need to yeah we gotta start the entire time I.
Ain't got time for you I don't get.
To start the entire time right? I'm with you, I.
Didn't realize there was a big. Debate, it is like I've, I've,
I've had, you know, I've gotten into some heated debates with
other chefs. Like, no, what do you mean you
don't? You got to the whisk the entire
time. That's what's making it, you
know, whatever. When they settle they they
brown. I think it's faster that way.
You know, last question, chef, if there's a Mount Rushmore of
chefs out there? Oh gosh.
Who's the four chefs that should be on there for you?
For me. Yeah, Well, honestly, my mom's
got to be on there, to be honest.
I mean, we, I grew up in an Italian American family and
they're, my grandparents had seven kids.
And so there was cooking going on constantly.
And we'd go to the restaurant. They ran an Italian restaurant
called Oliveri's in upstate New York.
And I'm we're talking Paulie, Anthony, Tony, Loretta, Gloria,
Teresa. And we ran the restaurant.
And so by the time I was like 9 or 10 years old and my mom never
stopped cooking. And so I, that was certainly an
inspiration. So I I put her face up on there
and can. We pause for a second.
Sure, meatballs. Yeah, Hot topic.
Another. How do you so regardless of
what's in them? OK, how do you cook them?
So oh gosh. Like what?
What's in your restaurant? Yeah, in my.
Restaurant back then. Back then we well, you make them
oven roast and then you put them in the sauce.
Oven roast them then. Oven roast and then and really
that's just a fat thing. So you can control the amount of
fat that's in the sauce and then you can skim it later if you
wanted to, but then it goes. But I'd only cook them like
6070% in the oven and then you finish braising for I mean, I
mean, that stuff would be on the stove for 18, 10 hours.
Yeah, just slow, slow. OK, so here's where we I say fry
them. You say fry.
Them. I fry them, yeah.
SPK we fried them because they're small.
We did the little tiny ones, Yeah.
And actually we still we haven't roasted them, chilled them,
fried them and then put. Them.
Yeah, fried. Fry them in a little oil.
Yeah. Nice and bright.
Yeah, nice little crispy on that side.
Yeah, anyway, we're back to Mount Rushmore, so.
We I'd eat them. I'd eat them.
Yeah. Yeah.
Thomas Keller, I think that's kind of a go to for a lot of us
in in this range, just because that French Laundry cookbook
really changed a lot for me. And the other two are going to
be tough, to be honest, because there's so many that, I mean,
you know, Anthony Bourdain, that book also changed a whole world
for me as well. And Charlie Trotter legends, he
came in to the mansion on his birthday and he and Dean and
Charlie's family or whatever they came in and ate and I was
the one that got to cook for their dinner and just his.
And again, I was probably 20 something or whatever, right?
And so that was nerve racking to say the least.
But he was just so genuine. And his signature in the book
that he gave me afterwards and stuff.
So that was like the purple one. Yeah, the purple one.
And just, you know, thank you for cooking for me on my
birthday. And, and just his, I've never
seen any food like that. So those books, I I want to.
Yeah. Over and over and over.
Again, when when those books came out, there was the French
Laundry and Charlie Trotter's books.
I I feel like those were significant moments in culinary
time like you there was there was before French Laundry and
after French Laundry cookbook. It really like it changed the
way everyone could. Same thing with Charlie Trotter.
I went to. I never ate at Trotter's, but I
went there recently and built Kim, who used to be the chef
there, and Dylan Trotter. Charlie Sunday gave me a tour of
the. Kitchen.
Oh my gosh. It was like, very cool.
And then going next door to his his studio apartment where he
filmed the kitchen sessions and seeing that it was, it was super
cool. So Charlie Trotter, I, I, I, I
my Mount Rushmore changes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But right. Yeah.
He's usually on you ask me this again next week, I'll probably.
Have my change right. But yeah, Charlie's usually on
there. So, Chef, thank you for being
here. Yeah, where can people find you
if they want to follow along? Yeah.
So right now you want to follow the Mineral Wellness Center on
facebookandits.org and then also be excited for restored and
delivered R&D and Mineral Wells because it's the unique concept
is it's, it's also kind of an incubator because we, we're
partnering with a coffee shop couple that their dream has been
to do coffee and we're partnering with a food truck
called Smoking Three CS BBQ. And so, and in addition to that,
my wife does plants. So it's going to be a plant
shop, bookstore, coffee shop. And then I've got a dining room
in the back and I get to do chef table dinners and that's cool.
I want to. Randomly open whenever I want
to. Open please keep me in mind I
want I want to go check it out. And by the way, you think people
are opinion about meatballs? Wait till you start hearing
about BBQ. Oh my gosh.
Yeah, for sure.
And in Mineral Wells, you know, it's like when I tasted their
BBQ, like, I don't think they didn't, They know it's good, but
it's, it's super solid. So there's a lot going on in
there. And yeah, come to town, check us
out. But mainly just, you know, just
ask questions, man. Just find the answers.
And you don't have to be alone and you don't have to struggle
through the stuff you're struggling with.
And the more we get in a position to make mental health a
regular topic, the better off we're all going to be, man.
Well, well, thank you for this was fun for me, by the way, cuz
yeah, you know, I, I think we have so much to talk about.
Like we could have talked for hours.
Yeah, yeah. But really, thank you for what
you're doing with all the work that you put in.
I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on this.
Been a blast. Yeah.
All right. Thank you so much.
Have a good day. All right, that's the show.
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