And like again, I think again, being someone that has benefited
off of social media cooking, I, I feel like social media is a
big part of the blame. Hello chefs.
This is Chefs PSA and I'm your host Andre Natera.
Today I'm joined by chef Dan Kennedy.
In this episode, we're going to get into how social media is
pushing bad habits and meat cookery.
We talk about the proper way to cook duck, Wagyu, octopus, lamb
and why knowing how to cook proteins seems to be a lost art.
We're going to break down the fundamentals, rendering,
resting, seasoning, how to build a better tasting menu and food
that's delicious instead of performative.
We're also going to talk about America's Culinary Cup and
competitive cooking shows. Stay tuned.
Do you think like when you're when you're watching social
media right now, like what do you think that we're doing right
now incorrectly when it comes to culinary?
Cooking proteins 99% of the time.
And you know, this is me after not cooking on social media for
a very long time, but still, you know, watch it and take it in.
But I think people just don't know how to cook proteins
properly. And you know, a big one that I
see is duck, like duck is like a protein that like I see cooked
incorrectly again 99% of the time.
Most of the duck that you see cooked that people are putting
up on social media is undercooked.
Trash, trash, trash. Tell us how you feel, chef.
Yeah. I, I, I take pride in meat
cookery. It's, you know, majority of the
kitchens I've worked in like I've ended up on rose stations
and it's always funny like talking to different cooks too,
where they're like, oh, I work like saute and I work grill.
And it's like I've always worked in kitchens where it's like
there's garmische hot apps and entrementier, paisanier and you
know, the meat station or station.
So I've always just looked at it like that.
But I've usually always ended up on like the fish or the meat
station which for for. People that don't know that have
may have never worked in a kitchen like that.
Meat and fish is like you're, you're a motherfucker.
You're a you're AG, you you are like one of the best cause in
some kitchens too, like you have like a saucier who's separate.
There's also I know you and Ron talked.
About it. Saucer is fucking gangster.
Fucking gangster in the kitchen. I've always worked in kitchens
where like the fish in the meat station like take care of their
own sauces. So it's like wrapped up all in
one where you're like proteins and sauces.
So like the roast cook is like the person you look at you're
like, that's the motherfucker. And usually they like end up
being like a sous chef, like right after that job and and
for. People that don't understand why
that's the case, it's because they handle the most expensive
center of the plate an item. Absolutely.
You can't. Vegetables.
OK, you can throw away an asparagus.
Asparagus here and there, like stuff like that where it's just
like hey, like don't fuck it up, come on, stop.
But like proteins, it's like you fuck that shit up and it's like.
There's a there's a lot of accountability.
There's a lot of accountability and especially like once you
start getting into like Wagyu's and even ducks like stuff that's
like super, super expensive. So yeah, that that's when you
start working in like as you like to call the tip of the
spear kitchens. That's always the stations I
wanted to like get to. So once you get to those, it's
learning how to like sure like butcher them properly and make
sauce properly, but then like cooking it is like a whole
another thing. So if, if we're talking about
duck, because I, I agree with you, most of the duck that I,
that I see is undercooked. And for people that don't know
that are listening, why is it undercooked?
It's because it's really tough. It's very tough meat.
It's very, very, very tough meat.
And I think people look at proteins.
It's like they cook it to like rare or medium rare and it's
like that looks so beautiful. It's like cool.
Have you ever eaten a rare to medium rare duck?
It's tough, like it's not broken down enough.
And then majority of the time too, like the skin is not
rendered properly. And so I think people at this
point like know like you start ducking a cold pan, like no fat
in it because there's enough fat in the skin itself.
But like again, like really understanding how to cook
protein is controlling heat. And I think people don't learn
that off of like a social media post because it's like, again, I
put a duck in a cold pan and you have on the Instagram a minute
and 30 seconds to do so. Like all of a sudden you put the
and then it cuts to I'm taking it out of the pan.
So it's like putting in the pan cold and low heat.
Like people always think to like crank it up.
It's like duck takes time. Like a lot of stuff takes time.
And so it's rendering it out slowly.
And the way I like to do it is like when the fat starts to like
render out, like dumping it out, like taking the duck out of the
pan, I render wiping it out, trying to cool it down a little
bit. Because once you start getting
those fats rendered out like, and they heat up, that's just
frying the skin. And then again, you're not like
rendering it out fully. So rendering the skin properly
is like first first step and. Do you Do you like to?
Dry age your duck. I do.
Yeah, I do. Dry the skin out a little bit.
Yeah, it tends to just make it easier to render.
A nice trick if you don't have time to dry age your duck is get
a heat gun and you just sit there with a heat gun.
Yeah. You should use a blow dryer.
Exactly. Yeah, same, same.
And it's just like slowly starts rendering it out and drying that
skin out just makes your job hell a lot easier.
And then I mean, honestly with duck, like I cook it the
majority of the way all in the skin and then, you know, give it
a quick base. I also like to cook it like age
it on the cage and then cook it on the cage.
It just gives it like a bit of more funk and like it gives you
a little more wiggle room cooking it.
That's that's the way when we had duck and Garrison, that's
the way we do we age it. We had a little aging cooler and
then give a little smoke to it. And then we we rationale, right?
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But we you know, we had a A program, right?
Hit hit the. It was perfect every time.
Let it rest and then flash it, slice it.
That was perfect. Yeah.
Yeah, but that's a that's a big thing too, is I think everyone
at this point knows to rest proteins.
You think, you think what? It's duck takes so much longer.
Like you need to rest duck so much longer than you think you
need to. So yeah, again, people, you
think people know how to rest proteins.
But then it's just like just let it show like and like majority
of the restaurants, like you'll see people like if there's duck
on the menu, like you're rendering those skin out before
service and you're like doing that whole process like before
guests even like coming to the restaurant because takes time
and then it gives you more time to rest and like all that kind
of stuff. You'll can I can I have a I'm
going to confess something you know, I used to tell my chefs
for Instagram undercook it for restaurant.
Cook it a little for Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
For sure, if you're taking a photo, undercook it a little bit
because. It's going to look better.
Yeah, exactly.
It looks better for sure. But does it?
Eat better. No, no it does not exactly.
It does not exactly. And it's, it's, I mean, it's not
even just duck, like it's a lot of proteins.
Like lamb is another one. People tend to cook that.
You know, you know what else? Octopus.
Most of the octopus I see on these these art of plating
websites, the fucking octopus I know is tough as hell.
Like I I could see it. Actually I don't.
I don't cook octopus or eat octopus anymore.
No, ever since like the whole like.
Documentary came to the the guy that I'd never saw.
Yeah, I haven't seen it but and I'm like saying I don't eat it
after, but like just learning how like intelligent of
creatures they are and it's super not sustainable.
I don't know. It's It's not sustainable to eat
an octopus. Why?
It's just one of the, it's just one of those things that like
you can't really like, I mean, one, their ecosystem isn't
protected. And then two, it's not like
something you can like farm, raise and like reproduce like
easily. Oh shit, sorry.
It's coming off the menu ASAP. I mean, you know, I, I'm never,
I'm never going to turn to someone and be like, oh, you
piece of shit, like you're coconut.
It's just for me. OK, so we will talk about
Octopus. But back to but no, you're
you're not wrong, though people tend to own their crooked.
It's, it's one of those things where it just takes a long time.
And I mean, I, I worked in restaurants where we did plenty
of octopus and generally we always cooked it sous video and
it was like 85 Celsius for like 4 hours.
Like long long time. We would do it where we'd lay
the tentacles like this for people that are listening.
It's like sticking your fingers together.
So like, they match like a puzzle.
Yeah. So that when they don't curl, so
we'd, we'd cook them in the, in the rationale or whatever on
Steam that way. So when when we played at the
Octopus, you'd have a nice straight tentacle versus, you
know, they're, they curl so quickly, especially if you do a
quick dip blend. For sure, but.
I found this is nice and and because most octopus that you
get is curled up, I was like, I I kind of like this look.
It's a long. Tentacle.
Yeah. It's very aesthetically
pleasing, yeah. For sure.
Yeah, but people do undercook it.
But you know, back to duck. What do you do pre rendering?
Do you score it? Do you poke it?
Do you use a brush? I don't, I don't score.
I've just never been a fan. If anything, like poke it like,
yeah, like a little like sausage poker and you just sit there and
poke it. That's worked.
I've also just done it where I've done nothing to it other
than age it and like just cook it.
Like if if you just know how to do it properly like.
Do you prefer to roast it on the bone for for your service when
you're doing so? Roast it on the crown still,
yeah. Yeah, I just, I feel like you
get more flavour and again, like I think it gives you a little
more wiggle room, yeah, to just kind of get it to where you
want. It to duck is honestly what I'm
I'm thinking back to when I was in culinary school the first
time I had duck and I was like. Wow, this is, it's one of my
favorite proteins. I agree.
It's one of my favorite. It's amazing.
I like all those game birds, squab and yeah, quail and
pheasant, like all that. Like you can just put so much
flavor in it, but. But knowing how to cook meat is
like it's an important skill. I mean, I, I think about like
roasting lamb and or a prime rib or anything like that.
Anything that requires interaction with the meat
through stages, through the the temping of it.
Bring it up to room temp before you roast it, if you can, to
cooking it in an oven that's not too hot.
So you have that end to end medium that you're looking for
the Rose and then letting it rest season and slicing it.
And then after you slice it, what do you do?
So a lot of people sometimes might serve it, or you might eat
it with a little olive oil or fat or something.
Yeah, finishing salt, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I think I, I think a lot of people first of all, they
don't know how to cook meat like you were saying.
And then they don't know those other steps post cooking the.
Meat. Exactly.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's a lot of times
there's things you just learn in restaurants and like, again, I
think again, being someone that has benefited off of social
media cooking, I I feel like social media is a big part of
the blame. I don't want to say it's all the
blame, but it's just people see stuff like, Oh my God, that
looks like you're saying. It's like for the photos
undercooked a little bit because it looks good and then all of a
sudden people eat it and they're like, fuck, is this.
Yeah. Yeah, what, what's your, what's
your take on cooking meat, beef protein like a 5 or anything
like that? So I again, I think people tend
to undercook that too. And that's, that's one where
it's like once you start getting into like the like the A5
Waggy's and stuff like that, like you're talking like
anywhere from like $45.00 a pound to like several $100 a
pound. So I think people are like
legitimately scared. Like they're just like, Oh my
God, this is so expensive. I can't overcook this, which is
fair, but I think people tend to undercook that too.
Because with like Wagyu know you've had, it's just fat.
It's so much fat and I feel like you need to render the fat fat
out a little bit more and just like get the proteins to a point
where it's like nice and tender. And again, like people might
come after me and be like, that's terrible.
But like I cook closer to medium than I do rare on beef.
Like I, I like medium rare, but like, I'm not saying there's a
medium rare plus. Like, I'm not, I'm not, I don't,
I don't believe in the plus. Things medium minus.
Those. Yeah, exactly.
Medium minus is real, medium rare plus does not.
Exist, yeah. But I I cook beef medium rare,
but like on the verge of medium. Like like you said, Rose, nice.
And Rose, I just feel like that's the best, like best way
to eat it. Like it's just more tender in my
opinion. Yeah, it is.
And I agree with you. I think a lot of I don't know
why we got into everything needs to be medium rare or rare, but
for the eating experience, I blame Liver King.
Yeah. Probably, yeah, probably raw,
but I but I think for the for the the texture, yeah, I think
medium is like the perfect texture for most meats.
And you know, when we talk about sous video, so like if you're
doing like the 60 hour short rib or, you know, 48 hour short rib
or something like that, with the intent to, you know, later on
serving it medium rare, cooking it over long.
So that way when you slice it, it has that rose still, right?
I, I like that texture and the color.
I don't like it. Too red, no.
Yeah, no, it's just it's chewy. It's not pleasant to eat.
No, it's like it's not. What?
What do you where do you stand on A5 versus not So like just a,
a, a nice prime or Wagyu cut of meat.
Like if, if if you're in the restaurant and your default meat
course, your beef course, what are what is your general
default? I want beef that tastes like
beef. Yeah.
And I feel like with A5 and Wagyu, you tend not to get that.
We actually served a Wagyu at the restaurant.
RIP possible rest in peace. But it was a Japanese Wagyu that
we got imported. It was called, it's called
kozatsu. So it's a traditional Japanese
Wagyu cow. They cross breed it with a Swiss
sematol dairy cow. And they don't rate it like on
the traditional like scale that they do.
Like if you've ever gotten like true, true like Wagyu, they'll
send you like a certificate with like the imprint of the cow's
nose on it and like all that information with this kind of
beef. They don't because since they
cross breed it, But I say, I like to say it tastes like beef.
Like it's very beefy. It still has a lot of fat
marbling in it. So that's like 1 Wagyu of like I
actually enjoy this. Other than that, like I'm not a
big fan of it. Like you're just like eating
fat, like and it's just like after enough of it, you're like,
I feel sick. It's just it's fat.
So for me, like just give me some like really good, like
grass fed beef. Yeah.
And just like do you have? A cut that you you prefer for
tasty menu style. For tasty menu style, like strip
wine usually, yeah, I'll do rib eye every now and then, the eye
or take yeah, like take the eye and then like take the Spinalis
and use that for something else. I've done it where I've like
active it for the pop up you came to.
Yeah, I did 22 caps. That was really good.
Yeah, I forgot about that. That was really good, yeah.
And that that was another one where it was just like, I think
a lot of y'all were worried. It's like, oh man, is it going
to be undercooked? And it was like the guy who
cooked it, like I can't even take credit for it.
He cooked it and he's like, I'm, I'm worried it's overcooked.
I was like, this is perfect, trust me.
And I like cut into it. I was like, perfect, yeah,
perfect. But yeah, go.
I, I like stripping on like rib eye cap, but it's just like
pretty. And then again, repurposing like
the Spinalis or anything like that.
One piece of meat that I hate to say I haven't cooked a ton was
the picanha. I've never really messed with
that. People who have cooked it,
they're like, it's so cool once you know how to cook it.
Yeah, I've never. There's a bit of a learning
curve there. That's what I've heard, yeah.
Like it's. It's tricky.
I I, I cooked it for an event and it was perfect.
Yeah. And then I.
Thought. OK, it it goes really unperfect.
If it's under. Like almost like duck, right?
It's almost like, oh, it's almost inedible if it's rare.
Hanger Steak's another one. Hanger steak's another great
example. Yeah, yeah.
And understanding that each, each one has a different a, a, a
different way to serve it. Like there's this, this moment
where it's like that is that is the perfect.
We saw it on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
When you're when you're serving meat, what is like, what's your
process? So you're, you're, how do you
like to cook it? First of all, I guess that would
be the. I like to cook it on on grill.
I like growing proteins. I like growing like majority of
things like vegetables, proteins.
If I can put it on the grill, I'm probably going to put it on
the grill do. You have a specific type.
I mean, I like the beach Auton it's it burns super hot and it
burns almost smokeless. I also like cooking over like
embers of like wood. And you know, I know there's an
argument for people. It's like it's a waste of time.
You're sitting there with like that little fan And I, I don't
think fans are like, don't get me wrong, I definitely like see
the people with the fan in their back pocket.
If I I've had cooks like come in and they put I'm like, get that
out of your that's stupid. Get it the fuck out of your
apron. But I feel like if you just know
how to control like the flame in the heat, you don't really need
that. Like you do see people sitting
there like non-stop. And it's like, learn to control
it. Learn how to like move it
around. It's a living and breathing
thing. Like fire is a living thing.
It needs oxygen to breathe and live.
So as long as you know how to like, move it around and rotate
and like get the like. The soot out of there that wants
to like absolutely smother it. I don't know that way but.
And and then from from there, what's your process after?
Do you have like a typical standard method is a rest?
What's your rest ratio if you have one?
Or do you just intuitively know, like when you're teaching cooks
to cook meat, what is the, when you tell them we're training you
this, what you do, you've got it cooked, you control the fire,
it's perfectly cooked. Where do you go next?
I mean, for me, I feel like I just like intuitively know at
this point. It's the same with like cooking
it to a temperature like I've never, ever, ever needed like an
internal probe thermometer where it's like, oh, it's perfectly
135°. Like I've always just been able.
Not always, but like I've got no point where I can like feel it.
And then I like hate testers where it's just like sticking
in. And I've gotten to the point
where I like use here because, I mean, I learned cake testers
where you put it like at the bottom of your lip and then
people see that and like, it's gross.
All right. I just so like, I, I tend to put
it like right here because it's sensitive there as well.
Not quite as sensitive here, but and then resting, I don't know,
I, I feel like I've gotten to like maybe like 20% of the
cooked time. Like if it takes you like 20 to
25 minutes to like cook something like rest it for like
at least 5-5 minutes, 5 to 10 minutes.
Do you rest it in fat or dry? Anything.
I It depends on the restaurant. So like again, at pasta bar,
like space was very, very limited there.
So we didn't have space to like set up different fat resting
areas. I love resting proteins that
were like resting it in its own fat.
It's so cool and it just imparts more flavour.
But more often than not just dry rest just like put it in like a
warm place. So it doesn't like like you're
putting it over somewhere underneath like an AC vent and
you're just like doing absolute opposite of what you want it to
do. So I usually just like have like
a shelf above like the grill or the stove and like rest it up
there. And then so once it's like ready
to like go to the plate, it's like, OK, flash it in the oven
for a second. Just like get a little more heat
on it, slice, send it up. I always like to send it up on
like a sea fold. So like if anything drips off
like brushing it like some fats, always nice, get like a nice
like Sheen on it, put a little more flavour on it.
And then just some, like finishing sea salt.
Maldon. Jacobson, yeah.
Jacobson, Maldon, One of those two.
Yeah, when it comes to, you know, so we're kind of talking
about this. You mentioned that I went to one
of your pop ups, which was really great, by the way.
Yeah, it was really, really good.
It was fun too. What do you how do you design A
tasting menu? I have a lot of opinions on
tasting menus. I know you know that, right?
I do like tasting menus and I love that style of food.
My thing is, I don't know how we got to the point where we have,
you know, restaurants that are serving 30 courses.
And seven hour experience. Like, I don't, I don't want
that. Honestly.
I, I, I look at it from the standpoint of what do I want
today? As you know, the person that I
am today who is, you know, still a chef, kind of loves food and
has a lot of friends that like to be creative and cook that
way. I don't want to spend more than
2 1/2 hours at the table for me. Agreed.
Yeah, agree. I mean, so when you're designing
now, like, what are you, what are you thinking?
What's your What's your current take on designing your future
tasting menus? For me, timing, yeah, timing is
like #1 I, I couldn't agree more.
Like I, I don't know if I'm like an undiagnosed like ADHD type
kid that just hated school and couldn't sit still And like,
that's why I love kitchens, But like, I legit like if I'm
sitting in one place too long, I start getting like anxious.
Like I'm just like, I got it. I got to get out of here.
This is terrible. Doesn't matter how great the
experience, like how warm and hospitable everyone is.
It's like, I'm over this. I got things to do, even if it's
just like watching TV. So timing is a big one, making
sure you're not necessarily like stuffed at the end of the meal,
but like satiated and like full because I mean, if you're going
to eat food, you're probably hungry and like, if you leave
and it's like the, it's the big like.
You you go to the drive through afterwards, Yeah, you don't want
that. The amount of people that like,
I've like gotten into it on like Instagram comments sections,
which I don't know why I still do anymore, but I just like
there's certain days where it's like called me on the wrong day.
So it's funny because you've done this, but I know I won't
say who, but a lot of other chefs have done this to me.
Like they'll message me. Do you know this motherfucker?
Oh yeah, I did that to you once. I was like, what is this fucker?
And so, yeah, there's definitely been times where I've gotten in
the comments with people and. I'm just like, like, stop it.
Don't, don't, don't, don't feed them.
Yeah, yeah. But I mean, you said it before,
it's like all of us love drama. Like we just love drama in
kitchens, so it's hard to avoid that sometimes.
But no, I mean, I've gotten into it with people who are like,
again, like I've done videos on Instagram where it's like I do a
dish and it's like people are like, Oh my God, that's so
small. I'm like, well, you know, this
is like a dish I would serve in a tasting many restaurant.
They're like, yeah, and I'd need a burger afterwards.
It's like, have you ever eaten at my restaurant?
Like, no, then shut the fuck up. Like I don't want to hear your
opinion. And like, if you've never eaten
at my restaurant, like I never, ever, ever had anyone like come
into a tasting menu restaurant that I've ran and been like, I'm
still hungry. Like actually I had one guy but
he was like gross how much he ate it.
Was like. I thought I was going to be full
and I gave him like 2-3 more extra courses.
Like I'm still hungry. I'm like, I got nothing for you
about like you're just weird. So yeah, making sure that it's
enough Food First off. And you know, it's different
because I've eaten at tasty menu restaurants where it's like 15
plus courses and like some dishes come out and it's like a
bite. And it's not like a canopy.
Like you get your canapes and then there's like dishes that
come out and like sometimes there's a dish that's like one
bite. You're like, how many get full
on this? But just builds up and it's just
like at the end of it you're like, OK, that was enough like 1
biters that I was full. I've also eaten a tasty menu
restaurant where I was like, I'm legit hungry.
But then after that, I don't, I don't necessarily feel like I'm
telling a story with my food. I know there's like definitely
chefs out there that their restaurants and their tasting
menus are like built off of like I'm telling you a story.
I think Dominique Crenn's like a perfect example.
Italiate Crenn. Like I've never eaten there, but
people who have eaten there told me it's just like the menus like
a poem and like she's got like a story to tell about her
childhood and stuff like that. I didn't grow up in France.
I didn't grow up in like some cool.
Like, I don't know, I'm like just a normal weird white guy.
Like I don't really have like some cool like story to tell.
But I like to cook food that I've just eaten and learned from
other people, like in my 20 year career.
And I just like to take people on like a journey rather than
like a story. You know, if you eat at one of
my restaurants, some people like hate it.
They're like, there was like nothing that tied it together.
Like it was just like we went from like Japan to Thailand to
France to the Middle East like, and it's just like, what the
hell. But some people are like, wow, I
just like went on a journey and like.
When I ate your tasty menu, I I thought it was exceptional.
And I think, I mean, this is just me, but hopefully when I
say it will be more than just me, because I know a lot of
people feel like this, like I, I sometimes want less story, more
delicious, like I want it to taste good more than I care
about the story to be to be honest with you, that's.
Kind of where I'm at. And your food was that like your
food was like, like, here's the I remember.
It was like a maybe it was tuna with Froot Loops.
It wasn't Froot Loops. But they looked like little all
the pickled vegetables. Yeah, it was like that was that
was a fucking banger. It was it was good.
And the caramel that you made on on another dessert course also
is like, it's like, I want that. I want to try the food and be
like, that's fucking good. more than I like, like, oh, that's
OK, but that's a good story. I don't.
I give a fuck about the story and I don't really know.
I don't want anyone. Yeah, I don't.
Want to knock anyone who's like, I have a story to tell.
Like, I think that's cool. I think it's cool when people
have. I just don't.
I don't. I'm like, just I just want to.
And then then that's when it segues into like, delicious
food. Yeah, sure, make it delicious.
Your story tastes like shit. Great story though.
Great. Story Bud, your duck was
undercooked, but no like and then like that's like creating a
tasting menu like the last and probably the most important part
is just making it delicious Like I think a lot of chefs, myself
included, like always got wrapped up and they're like, oh,
it'd be so cool to do this dish and like the technique behind it
and like all that it's like cool is it delicious?
No, then get the fuck off the menu.
Like and I think if someone can do a 30 course tasting menu
where everything is delicious, more power to them.
And like I'm like, that's fucking impressive.
But for me it's like, I like the realm of like 5 to 9 courses
because it's easier to make 5 to 9 courses all delicious.
Once you start getting into like 12:15, it's like you're probably
going to throw some things in there and it's like, I know
you've eaten meals. I've eaten meals where it's
like, I don't really remember. Like I don't really remember
everything. Like there were some bites that
were like, it's good, Yeah, technique was fine, everything
was cooked properly. But it's just like, didn't
fucking resonate. Yeah, it was.
It was. It's almost like an unnecessary
vanity. Exactly.
And I mean, we're all guilty of this show, so I'm super guilty
of. It all of us.
Yeah, it's just like, I mean, when you start cooking at this
level, like you'd be lying if you didn't say it was not ego
driven. Like it's 100% ego driven
cooking. But it, it's learning to like
when, when you realize that like, oh shit, my ego's getting
a little too involved and like, I just need to like take a step
back or like calm. It down a little.
It's, it's definitely expressive.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's definitely expressive.
But there there could be a point where it's expressive to the
point of detriment. Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. Yeah.
When, when you're structuring your tasting menus for people
that are listening, how do you, how do you typically begin?
Do you have a methodology like, OK, we want to start cold and
then we're building to maybe it's spice levels or what are
some of the things that you're thinking about when you're when
you're building your tasting menu?
So I always start with canopies. I I just, it's a nice fun way to
start the meal. One of the ones I do is the
Taco. Yeah, delicious.
I remember I said it and I've said it on like social media and
stuff that I've done recently where I'll say it again.
Like I never thought I was going to have like a signature thing.
And I said it at the Papa. I was like, this is turning into
that. I remember you were like pretty
bold. Like pretty bold for you to say
that better be fucking delicious.
And I stand behind it like it's one of those.
It's a fun bite. And it's fucking delicious.
Thank you. So like that's one, it's like
it's never going to. Leave.
So for people that don't know that bite, what is it?
So it's a tiny little Taco. It's not traditional.
The Taco shell itself is super not traditional.
It's just a tweel. So we make or I make restaurants
closed. I make a tweel batter out of
dried cilantro and then another one out of reverse to Chili's.
And then there's like a super cool Taco mold that got from
mold brothers, mold brothers and it's just layering it.
So we put like the green batter down and then the red batter.
So then when it's done cooking and like shaping and all that,
you see like a green and a red. So like you look at it like, oh,
this is cool. And then filled with for the pop
up. I think that did grill beef.
Yeah, I think so. I I jump back and forth from
like grilled pork to grilled beef, but put a dry rub on it,
grow it, and then I toss it in a salsa Verde and then a grilled
pineapple aioli and then top it with some brown butter fried
shallots. So again, it's like.
I'll put a, I'll put an image. I think I have the photos.
I'll put an image up there when you're talking.
It's it's super delicious. But it's, it's, it kind of
epitomizes my cooking where it's a lot of different like
techniques involved, but then it's like different cultures.
And like, I don't want to say I do fusion cooking, but like, at
the heart of it is like fusing to like there's a lot of French
technique behind it, but then there's a lot of like Mexican
and Latin flavors in it, which is like some of my favorite food
in the world. Well, it's just a fun bite.
It's really pretty. And it's like you look at it and
you're like, oh, this is cute little Taco.
And then you take a bite out of it and it's just like packed
with flavors, like 1-2 bites, just packed with flavors.
So starting with the canapes, and it's always a good like test
for a canopy is like if you eat it and you want like 10 to 20
more of them, Yeah, good, good. Run it.
So like just like starting off the meal or something.
It's like, fuck, that was delicious.
And then starting like actual plated courses.
I always like to start cold. I always usually start with like
a salad and the salad I did. For Oh shit, I forgot about the
salad. So again, I hate to I keep
referencing for people that were thinking like we didn't fucking
eat it, but you made the salad. And I got to tell you like I'm
not a fan of salad. Like I'm, I'm not.
I like when someone sends me a salad.
I remember Jacob, you know, my my former chef, as soon as he
got free, the first thing he'd put on social media was a salad.
I remember calling him like you're you're going to fucking
start creating content and the first thing you do is a salad.
Like I start talking shit to them.
But your salad, I remember I was so mad when I got it, but it was
so fucking good. I was like, that was actually
one of the best courses was that salad and I did not want to like
have the sun. Jokes on it, fucking banger the
dressing it was. Great.
Yeah. And it's one of those things
too, where you look at it and like, like, how is this a salad?
Like it 'cause I mean you think salad and you think like
lettuces and like tossed on a dressing and then there might be
some crispy stuff on it. But like kind of take that where
it's like a super, like there's nothing wrong with salads in
general. Like I love eating salads, like
making salad for family meal. Like I love because there's so
much you can do with it. Like making the dressing super
bright and acidic and then like the proper greens where it's
like crispy and crunchy and like putting texture on it and all
that kind of stuff. Like when I go to like certain
restaurants, I'm like, Oh yeah, I'll, I'll order like a really
good Caesar salad, my jam. Well, like going to a tasting
menu and if you're like a salad, you're like, what the fuck are
you giving me a salad? So it was like, how do you do
something that's just like different, different textures,
different techniques, different cooking styles.
So with that one is like, all right, we're going to grill
things, we're going to ferment things, we're going to pickle
things, we're going to fry things.
There's a crumble like it's just like so many different things
and like textures and flavors. And then like, yeah, any good
salad is like a great dressing. And what was what was the
dressing on that one? So it was Granny Smith apples.
That's right, juice Granny Smith apples.
And then we make an oil out of basil, tarragon and dill, and
then just like emulsify that this is bright.
Green yeah, with. An apple vinegar that we made.
So it's just like apple and herbs and it's like super bright
and like all that super delicious.
Thank you. So yeah, starting with a salad
and then more often than not, like I feel like I have like an
outline for like tasting menus where it's like cool salad, then
crudo course. And then after that, I kind of
like doing dishes where it's like cold, but also there's a
hot element to it where it's like I'm plating up something
that's probably room temperature and then I'm pouring like a
ripping hot broth or like sauce over it.
So it like kind of like bridges the gap of like cold and hot.
And that could be, you know. How many desserts do you
typically do to to to like a pre dessert?
Pre dessert. And you know, I, I don't like, I
don't like the first dessert being called like a palate
cleanser, but like the pre dessert I was like being like
brighter and like acidity involved and all that.
And then like the last dessert is usually like chocolate or
caramel. Or some more deck?
Like holy shit this is rich. Yeah, and it was good.
It was good. When I think about tasting menus
and, you know, we, we, you know, going back to they're a little
bit out of control sometimes. But you look at some restaurants
that are doing it like I think EMP right now has a 5 course.
I don't know how many La Bernadine does, but I don't
think they're 30. I know Providence in LA does
like A5 course and like A7 course or a nine course, 8
course, something like that and. I, I came across a Trotters menu
who really Between Trotters and French Laundry, they were the 2
restaurants that really started bringing the tasting menus to
the US. I came across an old Trotter's
menu that was a la carte. I've come across a French
Laundry menu which I'm not sure if this is a one off or if this
is how they start. I need to verify that was a la
carte And it made me start thinking.
So I was like, man, when did tasty menus really become in
vogue? And so I went back in my own
mind to my first job in a fine dining restaurant when I was 19
years old and I was a saute cook.
And the fine dining aspect of it was very different because it
was a la carte, but we would do certain things tableside.
So back then it was like the steak Diane or the crepes
suzette. I'm trying to think what else we
did. We did Caesar salad tableside
like it was, it was a lot of these things.
And, and the reason a lot of that was done was to take
pressure off the kitchen. So the service team had to, you
know, pick up the the steak in the dining room in Flambe and.
There was a little bit of the soul tableside and all that kind
of stuff. Correct the the soul or soul
Veronique with the grapes, whatever.
And so I was thinking about that.
I was like, we used to, this is crazy 'cause I haven't thought
about this until the other day. We used to, for every guest that
would come in, we had to, they would be served in ice
sculpture, a swan ice sculpture with a, with a sorbet in it,
right? That was the sorbet course.
It was the, it was and, and it wasn't like giant.
It was like a small little, we had a mold, right?
We had a, we had a mold of ice of a swan and every swan had
Raspberry sorbet or mango sorbet or passionfruit, whatever.
And I was like, OK, And then of course at the end we had the the
Bon Bons and the Miniard DS that would come.
And at the beginning we had the amused Bouche.
Everything else was all the card.
So they'd come in, they'd order their three course, there'd be
some tableside, there'd be the sorbet course that they didn't
know they were getting. It was the compliments of the
chef. They'd get the amused Bouche,
compliments of the chef. They'd get the Miniard DS at the
end, compliments of the chef. So you have this 5-6 course
tasting menu, but you ordered all the carts.
The other things were we were going to send out, you didn't.
Know you didn't know about? That and at a certain point I
was like, OK, so then as I started remembering that, I
realized there was a lot more restaurants like that than just
the one that I worked at. And then it just became
ubiquitous where it's like, oh, elbulli came out with their
crazy tasting menu. And then it's like, OK, well,
you want to play at the elbulli game, Tip of the spear, you
better be doing. 30. Courses, 30 courses.
Then it just kind of got out of control where I'm not sure.
And the only reason I bring this up is because I I think New York
Times, I think, or New York Post, one of these magazines
newspapers wrote an article like is the tasting menu dead?
It's like, I don't think it's. Dead.
It's not. It's not dead.
It's not, but I I do think that. I think the iteration of it is
dead. That's.
What I was saying I. Couldn't agree with that.
I couldn't agree with that more, Yeah.
We need to rethink the tasting menu, but it's not dead.
It's not dead. Yeah, it's not dead.
People still want to eat like that, but again, like I think
people don't want to sit in a seat for more than 2 1/2 hours.
I think 2 1/2 hours is like that sweet spot.
You'll get people that like don't mind like 3 hours.
And like, I mean we've had people sit at the restaurant for
like 5 hours and it's like. Yeah, what the fuck are you
doing? But you can't build a restaurant
for that person. No, no, you got to.
Yeah, you get outliers for sure. But like that's The thing is
like I like to cook tasting menu like I like to.
That's the style of cooking I like to do.
But do the masses want to eat like that?
Like do the masses want to eat in that form, in that fashion?
And you know, majority of them probably not.
I mean, you get a lot of people that I mean, I saw a lot of
people like commenting about it, like with pasta bar closing,
everyone's like good riddance. We don't need restaurants like
that in Austin. It's like, cool, you probably
were never going to eat here anyway, but like.
There was a lot of people that didn't think that.
Yeah, the people who came in were like, this is awesome.
Like you guys are amazing, like what you're doing.
So I mean, again, it's like, you know, Reddit and Instagram where
people are just go to hate. I, I I.
Cannot stand people that celebrate a business closing.
It's wild. It's wild like.
You're celebrating someone losing their their livelihood.
That's and all the people that work there.
Like how? How the fuck?
That's that's something we talked about a lot with the
restaurant, like when it was announced that it was closing.
And like, sure, like you can hate on a restaurant, but yeah,
at the end of the day, it's like you're celebrating people losing
their fucking jobs. Like you, you know that, right?
Like it's like, do I like celebrate when like a tech
company closes? Because it's like, Oh yeah,
fuck. Like the CEO, but it's like how
many thousands of people losing their jobs?
It's like why are you like just because you and you probably
never even eaten at the restaurant, just 'cause you
didn't like the style of service we were doing or like the the
players involved. Square recently so square laid
off I think half their staff did you read that?
No, so Square is Jack Dorsey's Jack Dorsey, who used to own
Twitter before, has Square. And he put out a, a press
release that said, you know, where where company's doing
fine. But we basically found a way to
operate more efficiently. And I'm paraphrasing, but
basically it's implied like we have AI.
We have AI, Yeah. So we could lay off about 50% of
our staff. It's like, am I going to
celebrate that? No, like, like that.
Why would we celebrate that? It's it's crazy to me to think
that. And, and I mean, yeah, it's I,
I, I don't support that. Celebrating the difficulty of
other people from the sidelines. Yeah, it's.
It's weird, but it's also just like.
Fucking hater culture. It's a human nature hater
culture for some reason. I saw something today when I was
coming in. It was a good way to a good
segue into social media. I saw something when I, you
know, before, before I came into the podcast, this girl and she
was, I don't, I don't want to fully explain the video because
I'm not trying to pick on her, but it was like the cringiest
fucking video I've ever seen. And she's like acting out
different restaurant scenarios. It is really bad.
And I'm thinking like, do you really want to pitch in and hole
yourself into being the fucking clown?
Yeah, yeah, you know, like, do you really want to pitch in and
hole yourself into doing fucking skits for?
People that, but people have no problem with it because they're
like, it is like clicks and views and like all that, like
seeing like grown men do, like TikTok dances that like kids are
doing. And it's like, you're cool with
that. And like some people just are,
hey, good. Good on you.
I'm just thinking like from my
standpoint, I'm like, I can't do it.
I've, I've tried to occasionally like turn on the camera and talk
some shit. I'm like, and then I watch it.
I'm like, I'm just gonna post it, see what it does, and then I
regret it and I fucking watch it.
I was like, fuck, I hope this doesn't go viral.
I fucking hate this thing. I hate the fact like that's why
I enjoy the podcast, because I don't have to put on a
character. It's like I could I this is who
the fuck I am. I could cuss, I could I could
share my thoughts, I could change my mind.
I could say that was fucking stupid for sure, right.
I shouldn't have said that, but. When you can get thoughts out,
like Instagram and social media is just like someone like
comments on something and then like someone wants to like put
their two cents in. And maybe it's like a good
point. But then you like go into the
comments section and you see like 2 paragraphs.
Like I'm not fucking reading that.
Yeah. And like in a, in a podcast
sense, it's like, let's talk about this and let's talk about
like the nuance and the context and like all that kind of stuff.
You know how to cook. That's not the problem.
The problem is getting your team to do what you want when you
want it. That's leadership.
My book, Culinary Leadership Fundamentals breaks down exactly
how to run a kitchen without losing your mind.
Stop yelling. Start leading.
Get the book at Chefs psa.com. By the way, I was I was watching
TV last night and the new show Culinary Cup.
I haven't watched it yet. I haven't watched the first
episode. Yet so, so a lot of people that
I know are on there. Matt Peters, good friend of
mine, is on there and Phil Tessier is on there as well and
I was so excited. I'm a spoil. 2 Titans, 2 Titans
right? Bocustior gold medalist.
Bocustior silver medalist and Phil first American to ever get
on the podium. Yeah, that book Chasing Boku or
Bogus is like one of my favorites.
Excellent book. Shout out to Philip Tessier but
they're both on there friends. Co workers you know have been
coaching and heavily involved with competitions of bogus for
many years. Spoiler alert at the end of
episode 1, they compete against each other and Matt Peters wins.
They're the competition like beef stroganoff.
So Matt does like like some enolodi.
I don't remember what they were stuffed with, but like a sauce
and, you know, some meat sliced up where Phil Tessier does a
very intricate pasta wrapped around some protein with like a
beautiful vase of sauce. And it's like very boku style,
right? Matt ends up winning Split
decision right between Michael Simmer, Rusty and Wiley Dufres,
and I think Padma has to be the tiebreaker.
And so I'm looking at that and I'm like, this is fucking
bananas. First of all, it's competition
for Top Chef, right? For the new number $1 million
prize, which you should go on that show.
I mean $1,000,000 prize. $1,000,000 prize.
I knew a lot of people that were that they were talking to and I
was like, should you do it? Like fuck yeah dude, it's
$1,000,000. For $1,000,000, yeah.
For $1,000,000. Yeah.
And the competition is solid, right?
Yeah, that's The thing is they they don't get like you can say
what you want about like the Top Chef competition.
It's just been on for so long that it's like, OK, like you're
starting. To get there's some sharks and
goldfish. Exactly, I mean, there's there's
some seasons where it's like, holy shit, these are top tier.
But like this, like first season of it, it's like.
All great whites in the fucking pool.
And episode one, they fucking close it with Matt beating Phil
Tessier. And I'm like, that's the finale.
Yeah, why would you, why would you do that on episode 1?
That's the finale. But I also see it like maybe to
get people watching it. It's it's get people talking
about it. It's like that this happens.
Game of Thrones effect where it's like Ned Stark gets killed
at the beginning of season 1. You're like, that's the main
character like what are you doing?
It's just like that. Like holy shit, y'all did that?
Like you had one of the best chefs, if not like the best chef
on the competition, like gone episode 1.
And it's usually like episode 1 is like the person you're like
that person the belong here. Get them out of here.
Get that person out of here. Right.
But like, yeah, I was blown away.
I was like, I was like, fuck, call me Culinary Cup.
I'll tell you. Yeah, I'll tell you what not to
do next time. Like save that for I mean, I
honestly, no disrespect to that. I have no idea how this is going
to play out. Everyone's talented on that
show. But I I thought like, oh, that
might be the finale. What you that you could be
wasting your finale on episode 1.
But maybe they did it just to. Honestly though, like thinking
about it, if I'm not going to win the competition, like I mean
as a chef, like I look at like, and not all chefs look at this
the way I look at it. But for me personally, like I
look at it like hip hop, like where it's just like some of the
most braggadocious, like I'm the best MC there is.
I look at it like that same way where I'm just like, if I'm
going into competitions, like I'm winning this absolutely.
Like if you go in like it's like a fight.
If you go in thinking you're going to lose, you're going to
get your ass kicked. It's the same thing with that.
But at the same time, like, like if I'm going to like get kicked
off, I'd rather get kicked off like first because then it's
just like you're just like delaying the inevitable of like,
I'm just having to do this like, and those competition type
things. Like I just feel like my brain's
not like wired for it. Like there's just like that
quick fire stuff and like all that.
I'm just like I don't know but. Yeah, Yeah.
Well. But $1,000,000 a million I.
Mean it's a it's a good chunk of change yeah I thought I thought
the show was good actually before we wrap up you see this
hat here I like that I like that so this is that's clean this is
for people that don't know this is the Dan Kennedy inspired
chef. So when you when we did the
first episode of of Chef's PSA, you came in with the Philly's.
Hat you have Philly Red with the bee on it, it definitely gives
that. Vibe and so when I'm designing
stuff for the the the chef's PSA store, I was like, man, I want
to do something. I want a new chef hat.
You design all that? I design everything.
No, I do 100%. So everything that you see on
social media like the podcast obviously is me.
I'm getting my thoughts out, but a lot of the daily quotes that's
me brainstorming for the podcast and, or things or advice that I
want to give. So thank you.
But I like, I, I'm thinking about it like I'm sitting in
front of the computer, like what do I want to talk about today?
And I, I'll like think of scenarios like this or it's a
response to a conversation that I've had recently the the
comics. A lot of times I'm just like, I
think this is funny. I could for people that don't
know, I could be a lot funnier, but I don't think people could
take jokes. So it's like I gotta, I, I, I
tone it down. Sometimes I like try and make it
high IQ jokes. So people like, get it, get it.
But all of that I do like. So anyway, back to designing
this. Yeah, I design all that.
I, I love that. So I was like, I like that.
I like that feeling. Yeah, it's a different creative.
Outlet, it's a different since I don't get the culinary creative
outlet anymore. This is my creative outlet.
This is a podcast and all the different businesses that are
associated with Chef's PSA, which are, you know, obviously
the store, the books. So I get to write, I get to
publish, I get to design book covers.
I learned, I think I just gave you one of my books.
I learned like how important the book cover and title is to the
sales of the book because I just wanted to design book covers of
things that like, I like this, I've learned don't do that
anymore. Like, so there's, there's a
business aspect to it that as I learned.
But so I, I do all of that like it's, it's my creative outlet.
So that with this hat, it's like, I like to pee.
So like I'll just do a big C with the, the chef in it.
And I was like the first hat I designed was this red one.
And I was like, I'm going to do multiple colors.
So I have it like in black and blue and white.
There I saw the white. One yeah yeah yeah yeah I was
like I I like it so I was like OK I I like this but yeah
everything I I mean the shirt the sous chef so it says
everything passes here sous chef and so I'm like I'll wear it
like a lot of people like why are you wearing a sue chef shirt
It's because I fucking like it that's why a lot of the stuff
that I design is like very hip hop related yeah exactly so it's
like sometimes and and all the music that I put on any social
media post or on a story it's like I'm fucking choosing that
why because I that's what I want to listen to right now it's.
The same with like my videos, it's like I'm always going to be
very unapologetically me. If you don't like it.
Keep scrolling. Yeah, keep scrolling.
There's other people that you're not gonna like.
Exactly. By the way, for people that
don't know, when I did the episode with Ron McKinley, we
had Ron's hip hop playlist versus the chef's PSA hip hop
playlist. But there's also the Dan Kennedy
Hip Hop playlist that's also out there floating in the wild.
I'm going to link it in this show.
I need to I need to taper it because I think I went a little
over but. Mine's like. 35 hours or
something like that. I just like started getting to a
point where I was like, I like that song.
Oh, that's a good one too. I got to put that one in and
it's just like. I think I have like 120 songs.
I don't know how many Ron has on his.
Probably it's less. I'll taper it down but yours is
like it's like 5. 100 songs. I don't remember.
What it is, I was the one of my days off.
I was just like. Chef, it's always good to have
you on. I I love you know, you're,
you're, you're you're an elite group of three timers on the
show. There's a couple of.
So Rico yourself. Well, I think Gabe's been on
three times. Who else have I had on three
times anyway? Breeden.
Yeah, We're working on Part 3.
I'll have Breeden on three times.
I'll have Philip Franklin Lee on three times.
Yeah. But anyway, you're you're the
official. You're in the official three.
Awesome. Yeah.
Triple the Triple Crown Honored Where?
Where can people find you If people want to follow along, if
they want to try your food, if they want to learn how to cook
like you? Hell yeah.
So my personal Instagram Cosinero at on or at Cosinero
under score DK I'm going to get back to doing some social media
content, but then I'm working on my own restaurant concept right
now and doing pop ups. That's Mori under score
ATXMORII. So yeah, I'm going to post some
information. They're going to start doing pop
ups and just working towards my own restaurant so.
Awesome. And I know I I mean, I've, I've
had a sneak peek. It's fucking great.
I'm excited for each other. Yeah.
One one of the best. One of the best in the fucking
game right now. People do not know Dan Kennedy
can cook like a motherfucker. I appreciate it.
Yeah, I appreciate it. All right, chef, Thank you.
Thank you. All right, that's the show.
If you liked it, make sure you leave five stars.
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The link is in the notes. We'll see you next week.
Hit the porno music. No small address in the kitchen?
Mix it. Drop the chef, Dallas.
No fiction stirring up the beats here.