Hello chefs, this is Chef PSA. I'm your host Andre Natera.
Today we have two amazing guests who are visiting Austin with the
Flavor 4H tour, Helen Kennan, founder of Canon Food Strategies
and Connor Sergeant, Vice President of Restaurants at the
Headington Companies in Dallas, TX.
We discuss AI, fine dining, and what the future holds for the
culinary world. Lena had to catch a flight
midway through, so I was lucky enough to have her join us, even
briefly. She's got a ton of insight when
it comes to AI, so I really was looking forward to this
conversation. After she leaves, Connor and I
get to reminisce about the old days of sous chefs.
I think you'll enjoy this one. Stay tuned.
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So we're going to we're going to get right into the most
interesting subject, at least for me, and that is AI and I
know you're big time into it and you're working with it right
now, but where do you where do you see this going?
What do you, what do you think some of the what do you think
are some of the things that we're not thinking about when it
comes to AI in the kitchen with that chefs can use in the
day-to-day and what do you see kind of coming down the road?
Such a good question, but I think the, the initial thing is
not what we are thinking about, but what you're right, what
we're not thinking about, right? So because I don't really think
we understand the potential of AI, not just in the food
industry, but in any industry in our real life or anything.
But I know for sure that what we think of it now is kind of like,
remember when the Internet first came out and we were like, you
know, and there were websites like Epicurious and we could
look for new recipes and we could get inspiration in
different places. And now there's chat bots,
right? You, you go into ChatGPT or some
other AI platform and, but it's so much more than looking for a
recipe. It's so much more than, you
know, trying to understand a technique or it's so much more
than that. We're digging into now.
And specifically the platform that I've been working with,
which is air technologies is to really understand artificial
intelligence, recipe menu and data management.
And that's important for big restaurants, as you know, small
restaurants, independent restaurants, as well as big food
companies, right? Because you really need help
and, and insight into driving, you know, labor efficiency, menu
development, get the right suppliers.
I mean, it can help all of that. It can help all of that Chef, it
is, we don't know the potential of its ability to learn either,
right? So you embed certain things into
an AI platform and then machine learning takes over.
And when you make certain choices, the actual, the, the
platform learns. So let's say you want to know
really what's in season, what's in season for the best, you
know, at the time, when should I actually be using asparagus for
my region from these local forms and I should be putting it on my
menu. Like AI can do that for you.
So it's not just about, I think a lot of people think it's the
death of creativity or it's the, you know, actually, I think it's
going to provide, you know, some much needed efficiency in the
world of an, you know, in the day of a life of a chef to be
able to have more time to perfect your craft, be more
creative, spend time with your people, spend time with your
customers. Yeah, I think that just like
Chef said, it's it's we're kind of at the intro level.
So I think that right now it's being used primarily.
I've talked to other chefs that use it somewhat as a creative
voice for them are like they're like, hey, I need to pair
something with this. Like these are you can load up
your menus and be like, this is some of my, this is how I cook
pair, you know, create a menu. I am actually really.
It's those types of usages that kind of scare me about it
because I feel like we're just increasing the echo chamber for
yourself. Like you're letting ChatGPT tell
you how to be creative. Yeah, like forcing you down a
lane. Chef obviously has a lot of more
experience on, on, on those things, but that's where as far
as using AI as mid wear efficiencies.
But you're seeing restaurant 365 toast, all these platforms
starting to integrate it and and those, you know, we've talked
about it in some of our financial meetings at our
restaurant crew where to find efficiencies for, for labor and
it kind of can look back and see a bigger picture.
So it's exciting. I try to tell my cooks and my
staff to use it. The things you're not good at to
get you in the kitchens because the place that's I think, you
know, chefs and cooks are irreplaceable are in the
kitchen. So help get you in the kitchen.
Like the things that you're struggling with writing an
e-mail cuz like, you know, there we have different departments.
I have historically been bad at emails.
Yeah, you know, rewording things.
I tell myself like, hey, just put it through and be like, hey,
make this professional. Right.
And what's crazy about AI? I mean, I've been using, I want
to say I'm going to give myself props.
I don't give myself enough props when ChatGPT first came out.
So I don't know, it's like November 2022 maybe I was an
early user because I discovered it on Twitter at the time.
I was like, what's this? And I jumped in.
I got and I downloaded it and I, I think at least I don't, I
can't prove that this is true, but I don't know anyone else
that can disprove it. As I think I wrote the first AI
cookbook I got on there and I got my, my old recipes that I
had, I had a stack of old recipes and I just said copy,
OK, scale it up, change this to grams, make sure it's worded
consistently. Boom, make these changes.
And it was pumping out the information.
And so I, I screen recorded and I shared it on social media and
so many chefs were upset. This is not, this is not true
creativity. This is, it's never going to
replace your seasoning. It's like, I'm not trying to do
that. I'm just trying to spend less
time in front of a computer. And this is an efficient way to
to scale recipes up and not have to sit there for hours with a
calculator. Well, and formatting, I feel
like like when I jumped from being a executive chef, the
corner director or like was like on that stage, you know, where
I'm like, you know, imposter syndrome and like looking up
what does pro forma mean? Like how much time just, I was
staring at a computer, yeah, trying to format something.
And that's where like, you know, something like that where it's
just like doing those things of copying and pasting that it can
be useful, I think for me as a chef.
If I didn't have AI I'd probably need 10 people to help me with
what I do and and I have a chat bot.
Normally when I get hired as a consultant for a restaurant
group or something like that, the first thing I do is I, I set
up several chat bots for them, a menu editor, a recipe writer,
you know, someone that's going to analyze whatever.
And I want to ask you this because you were talking about
data. And this has nothing to do with
culinary, but it has to do with my taxes.
It's something that's like the bane of my existence.
Every day when I part of my work routine, I spend about 30
minutes working on tax stuff every day.
It's like, sit down, It's my, it's my 30 minute tax time.
And I was like there has to be a more efficient way to do this.
So what I did is I got 2 excel reports, one from from a toll
tag and another one from Everlands, which is you know, a
driving app that tracks mileage. And I sent it to ChatGPT and I
said, can you consolidate these two and tell me which ones are
personal driving expenses and which ones are, are are are
taxable? It thought for two minutes and
it spit me the Excel report back categorized, colour coded these
go here, code it to this. I was like, this just saved me
hours worth of work and I didn't realize how good it is now at
filtering data. And that's just one example, but
what are some of the other things that you talk about?
You know, the, the data aspect. What are some other things that
you guys are using it for? So I think what's being
developed for, I don't know anybody that's actually using it
yet, but what is being developed for is First off, I mean, you
came from a hotel background, so you know that, right?
There's a, there's procurement, there's sales, there's POS
systems, there's digital signage, there's inventory,
there's production, there's all these different aspects that
just like now is an independent culinarian, right?
You're, you're using it for taxes.
But think about how that manifests as a real business
tool, not just for big companies, but for small, for
each location. So it has the ability to bring
together all those disparate technologies that people use,
right? So you have one POS system.
You might have a menu and ordering system or not.
You might not have a system at all, right?
You might have a, you know, an order guide with one of your
vendors, like a, a large broad liner.
It brings together all those systems.
It's like air traffic control for all of them.
And then you can pick and choose just like you did.
You needed data for these two expense categories.
This is what you needed. You can tell AI whatever you
want to do, right? And we're getting to the point
where we can actually look at a kitchen and the equipment that's
in a kitchen and the skill level of the cooks and say, if you we
want to make 404 hundred dishes of this one specific dish,
right? So you're going to scale it to
400, you need in your kitchen where you already have this
equipment, you're going to need this many cooks at this skill
level. So think about what that means
for labor, because labor is a huge issue for us, right?
So think about what that means. And it also as an operator,
gives you the true cost of food, which is valuable at at a deli,
at an independent restaurant, at a big hotel.
And so we are just at the tip of the iceberg about the
information that's going. You said it correctly in that
you said it saved me this amount of time.
Imagine. And it's not about replacing
people, right? It's about that exact thing,
giving people back time. So what's the highest and best
use of your time as a chef, as a consultant, as whatever it is
that you're, you know, your position is, but it gives you
back that time. I think there's a lot of fear
that it's somehow going to replace people or and it's just
not it's going to make. I think a conversation that
happens a lot, especially when I used to, when I was active as a
chef, there's a lot of young cooks would come up to me and
say, I want to learn the management stuff.
I want to learn food cost and I want to learn how to write
emails like you or whatever, right?
Like all the stuff that's not glamorous.
And I used to tell them, don't worry about that, Focus on your
craft. Learn to be a good chef.
Like that's the easy part. And trust me, it's not that fun.
And you could probably learn it pretty relatively quickly.
But what's interesting now is I noticed a lot of chefs, I hate
to use the term office chef, but a lot of chefs turn into office
chefs because the amount of administrative work forces you
into that. It forces you to become an
office chef because from the second you get in to the second
you leave, you're inundated with questions, emails,
responsibilities, ordering, scheduling, etcetera.
And what I, what I think is going to happen, at least now,
if you're efficient with AI and you have, and you have chat bots
set up or whatever, I think you cut your admin time in half.
Realistically, I think you'd get 5 hours back in the day and get
back in the kitchen where now you could see where the food
cost issues are. You could develop your team, you
could be a little less stressed, You should be a little bit more
efficient. And I, so I see AI as a tool not
to replace your, your taste buds or, you know, whatever, whatever
chefs are worried about. Like no, like you could iterate
much faster. Like, like you said, what
asparagus is in season, Give me 20 ideas that I could do with
asparagus with Italian food. Boom.
You might not use any of them, but I kind of like this.
And it's going to spin off. And then you could print out the
recipe and give it to someone and say, hey, give me 10 recipe
variations of that. You hand it to 10 people and you
could scale it like, OK, let's pick the best one.
Yeah, yeah. People should not be afraid of
it. And it's it's not going away.
At least I don't think so. I think I heard something on
some sort of podcast, they were talking about the car industry
and how it's like going towards automation and some like self
driving. Yeah.
And it was like, well, aren't, aren't we gonna like, you know,
aren't, isn't the next generation just gonna be sad
that they don't drive? It's like, dude, were you ever
sad that like you don't know how to ride a horse?
Like it's not, it's just gonna change and evolve.
You're gonna do something else with that time.
So yeah, I do think that like the people part is not gonna go
away. How issues that you and I were
talking about just the other day, right?
If you have that time back, then, you know, the heart of
being a chef is also teaching and training other chefs.
That's the heart of what it means being a coach, a mentor,
psychologist, Mama or Papa, right?
I think, I mean, that's what. And when you talk about
developing loyalty and staff and developing people and developing
culinary leaders and next Gen. you know, great chefs, it's only
because somebody had enough time to be that generous with me that
I got to where I am. And I think that it's the same
thing for us to talk about giving that time back.
You said you can be in your kitchen, you can be with your
people, you can be, you know, right there tasting things every
day. To me as a chef, again, whatever
the venue, whatever your venue is, that's the most valuable
thing is being right there with the food, with the people and
frankly with your with your customers.
I mean driving, you know, being don't underestimate that going
to the table touch. A lot of chefs don't like that.
But you know, people come because they want to say they
know the chef. It's like the chef is so
powerful. They want to know the right
cooks stay because they're like, that's my chef.
Yeah, yeah. No, I agree.
What do you like if there was some basic things that you think
every culinary operation should have in place with and, and
let's just go like very basic chat bot software.
What are some things that you think every culinary operation
should have in place in the chef's office as far as chat
bots set up? Well, I don't, I don't know that
it's just bot oriented. I think you actually like the
the the platform that I'm working on now.
I've been in development with this, with this Air technologies
for the last 15 months, right? So I think it's, it's finding
the right platform that can bring things together for you,
right? So it's, you can personalize
things. It's like anything else, right?
You can pick and choose modules, You can have professionals
develop certain things for you. I think the chatbot is just one,
one piece. It's the automating the those,
those daily tasks, you know, like menuing, ordering,
receiving inventory, right? It can't think about having the
ability to have an inventory where where the the bot or the
platform actually send you a push notification that says,
Hey, chef, you know, you got 10 lbs of snapper that's going to
go bad. You better, you better menu it
tonight. Like think about just having
that at you. You might even have forgotten
that that pen that snappers in there or a cook didn't tell you
or it was put in the wrong place or, but because it's interfacing
with all your other technologies, it understands
that. So I don't know that it's just
the the bot it's in. It's integrating AI into the
systems that you already use. And if you don't have those
systems, get those systems, right.
Yeah. Yeah.
So I think that it's, that's what I'm saying.
It's more than just the the bot or learning how to learn because
you know how you see those things where an answer from a
chat bot is only as good as the question questions that you.
Asked that is true and. I don't know if there's anything
maybe is it air you said is working on it, but it would be
interesting to have something that cuz my thing is the
training and the leadership down the exec chef usually knows
everything that's in their walk in cuz they're in there or they
should be right? But you know when you're
training sous chefs? They're not in there every day,
chef. I wish they're.
They're not. They're not in there, chef.
I'm not. Today, Because like, that's my
biggest thing is like at, you know, the next level now running
restaurants on, you know, in charge of front of house and
back of house. Yeah.
Recently I've had to step in and I'm functionally the executive
chef of one of our restaurants. And it's like, it's a difficult
job, but it's also an easy job. Just be in charge of everything
all the time, all at once. Yeah, right.
Like it's like. But it would be responsible.
Be responsible. And you know, some things like
training the sous chefs, it's like, you know, I look at the
order guide. I was like, Hey, do the order,
do the, you know, he does order guide.
And I'm like, Hey, we, we only have this in here, you know, so
it's like if you have a bot that like knows your inventory and
they're try to go log it in and then then AI is just like, Hey,
you already have this like you. Don't need it, but it won't be a
bot that knows your inventory. It'll still be software that
knows your inventory. The bot is embedded, right,
right. So it's not, you know, the
information is coming from the software system, not from the
bot. The AI is embedded in the system
and that's what you're going to see more of, right, AI embedded
in systems. And we can, I think both of us
Chef can say we there is no way in the operation that I ran that
I knew everything and every walk in there were multiple walk-ins,
multiple locations, multiple. And again, single restaurant
and. I think, I think the other thing
that you have to think about, like even when we talk about
pricing, inventory, anything like that, people make mistakes.
Yeah, yeah, technology. Doesn't you know, erasers and
ones and sevens? Well, you look at because AI is
like a fascinating topic. I don't know, chefs probably
that listen to this know that I love AI only because I see it as
a force multiplier for most of the daily operations that you
could work with, especially if, if if you don't know like and AI
is becoming more conversational, right?
So it's understanding like if, if you could ask it questions
and you could say, don't give it back to me at a third grade
reading level or, or scale it up, make it a little bit more
complicated. I have people that I work with
that'll that'll say, we're working on addition.
I'll say, and I mock it up an AI image of it and say, is this
kind of like how you want to plate it?
And it's like, wow, it knocks out another portion of the R&D.
Like you could give me 10 different plate variations with
an AI image that would take you four or five hours in the
kitchen, but it's going to take you 5 minutes with some prompts.
But it's also knowing how to use the system.
I think it's fascinating. Like I, if I had a prediction, I
would say in a few years you're gonna be able to put on your
virtual reality glasses and you're gonna have your board of
directors that are all AI and you're gonna have your AI
director of marketing and your AI director of finance and your
AICFO or whatever, whatever. And you're gonna sit down with
all these virtual reality and you're gonna say, hey, I need
you to work on this day and I need you to work on this day.
And then we'll meet in a few hours when you, well, I need a
few hours for lunch. But you guys will be done
instantly, right? Right.
I think that like one thing I'm worried about with AI, another
thing my constant worrying brain is this push towards like
everything being efficiency. Chefs are already like that.
But then but what we have and and I've had, you know, great
examples of, I mean, chefs in general are the like most
hospitable people. And when you're driving for
efficiency, like hospitality is inefficient, you know, trying to
make someone feel good isn't efficient.
And even your own staff, when you have something that's
driving towards maximum efficiency, I think sometimes we
could lose the humanity of it to where it's like, well, this is
whether it's, I think that's why people are afraid that it could
lose the people like, OK, we're just gonna go to robots or
whatever. And I don't think that.
How far away are we from robot cooks, though?
A long way, I think. What?
Do you think? I don't think so.
I just don't. I think it's just going to have.
Here's one. Type of food.
Right. It just has different
applications. But I disagree with you in
something you said. And this is where I think we
have to be honest with ourselves as chefs.
Not all chefs Dr. towards efficiency.
Not all chefs have a capability of driving.
Towards. That's true.
You know, and when we talk about, you know, let's talk
about the talent gap, right? There is definitely a talent
gap. There's people that you know
that aren't coming into our industry anymore or they're not
opening restaurants or they're not working in, you know, hotels
or they're not working where, you know, where hospitality, you
know, is AI don't know how we I don't think you actually can
automate hospitality. I think that's a cultural thing
that exists outside of AI and I think that that, but I actually
think I've had this discussion with several chefs.
There's this talent gap where we know there's not enough great
chefs for all the openings that we have.
And I think that begs another question, if we can give them
tools, AI based tools, be it a bot vehicle, whatever it is, a
platform or an integrated platform.
I think that what we what we will have is the ability to go
out and talk about how great it is to be a chef and how
restaurant careers are awesome and hotel and you know,
hospitality jobs that it's a privilege to be of service.
And that's, you know, we don't just do it because we love
cooking food, We do it because we love feeding people.
Yeah. I mean, we talked about it at
great length yesterday. That's the the, the I mean, how
do it? It just seems like every time I
come into one of our restaurants or I'm talking to one of our
chefs, it's like finding the people that are passionate about
food and taking care of people that like can push past the fact
that it's an it's amazing. You know, one of our cultural
values is like seek heat. Like, but there's also something
great about doing something hard, but people routinely and
increasing numbers can't get past the fact that it's also a
hard job. And so they like run into that
wall and they're like, oh man, do you like, I, I want to go out
on Saturday night, like I, I want, you know, to hang out with
my friends. And I was like, my friends are
in the kitchen. Like I purposely, when I got
into this industry, I moved to a different state because I knew
that like, if I wanted to do this, like I don't need the
distraction of like my friends are going to go to a show and
like, I want to go there. Like no, like I need to be, you
know, it, it takes all that, but the rewards, like you said,
it's, it's a great job. It's, it's, it's awesome.
I mean being, you know, the relationships and the people
and, and the people that, you know, the, the shoulders that I
stand on and those relationships.
So how, how do you think we're going to develop the next
generation of chefs? I mean, culinary schools are
fewer and far between than they used to be.
You know, we're on the subject of AI and I'm not trying to beat
AI again, but it's like people can learn faster.
There's chef steps, there's Ruby, there's these online
culinary courses, there's the Internet, there's Instagram,
there's YouTube, and then there's, there's still culinary
schools. Like we could go and pick up a
knife and, and work with the chef instructor right now.
I think that there's a big gap in the, in the, in the culinary
world where, where new cooks are coming in and they're learning
much faster. And I, I, I, I was saying this
today with, with another chef that I was having a conversation
with. I was saying that cooks can
become chefs now and probably half the time for my generation,
you know, because of all these, all the access.
Skill though. Well, the the information is
there. There's no bait keeping.
If you want to know how to do something, you just you could
find that information. You could.
There's no gate. You could just break over it,
right? But one of the things that we're
losing, it's the, it's almost like the food still needs soul
though. And you get that by making it
hundreds of times and connecting with it.
And so it's almost like we have knowledge, but we don't have
understanding. So we have, we know everything
about food, but we don't know. And I've had to give it some
soul. The lack of leader, I mean, the
lack of leadership in the kitchen.
We talked for about an hour on this, this bus ride.
And like, my head goes immediately to the fact that
one, I'm from Southern California.
She was the chef in LA. I was like, man, if I could have
found her, like and learn from her.
Just talking to her. You're like the leadership, like
what Chef Aline has. Like talking to her, I was like,
I want to work for you, you know, like I want to be, you
know, pumping out food on on your line and, and learning from
you. And it's those things.
It's like, it's like they know that technical job duty.
And I think something that, you know, has always stuck with me.
Danny Meyer's book Setting the Table, It's like that 51 percent
or The thing is, is like the technical job duty is not
important. It's hard and you need to learn
it. But that's the 49%.
It's like, where do we find those 51% people that he talks
about? We're we're the age of too much
information, right. And not enough soul.
Yeah. Not enough soul.
Yeah. Because the food, not all food.
And I'm this is a general statement, but a lot of food
doesn't taste the way it did 10 years ago.
And and we know better now. Like we, we know the right flour
to use. We know where to buy the right
ingredients. We know the right way to make
Neapolitan pizza where, you know, before we were just all,
we we just didn't understand. So we know better.
But it's still feels like it's just missing a little something.
You know what I think it's missing?
What's that? I think that when I was learning
to cook and it was a long time ago and I didn't go to culinary
school, I met a chef, I went to work for him.
I worked for him for six years and that's how I learned
everything, right? Everything, most things I kept
learning. And that's the other thing, you
know, that compulsive curiosity to keep on learning is what
makes a a really good chef great, right?
But I think it's because, you know, if I wanted to learn
something that he wasn't available to teach me, he would
just call up a friend and I could just go.
I didn't clock in. I didn't have workman's comp.
I don't know what would have happened if I cut myself at that
property or at that restaurant. I probably would have just
bandaged it up and gone back to work.
But I think there's this, you know, all this insurance over
regulation and everything that has that keeps us from just
sharing openly with each other and really being able to learn.
We were at, we saw this, met this awesome farm couple, right,
who needs labor on their farm? And I'm sitting there thinking,
you know, how can I get kind of the big companies to get labor
out there? But you know what the reality
is, they're never going to do that because who's going to
insure them? Who's going to get them there?
Who's going to pay them, right? And it's not even necessarily
the pay, but it's the ability, you know, how can we bring back
volunteering to to learn, right? So volunteering at a farm
because you want to learn that connection to the land, the
soil, in this case, the chickens, the pigs, whatever.
And in one hour time period with them, I learned so much right
about regenerative agriculture. And but you know, you don't get
those opportunities enough, especially young, young
culinarians don't get those opportunities.
So how do we foster those opportunities without putting
our business at risk, right. So I mean, I don't know what the
answer to that is. I don't know.
I'm not a lawyer. I don't know if we could sign a
waiver or whatever have them come.
And the other thing is, is it's it's generational, right?
Because now I find a lot of a lot of people don't want to
volunteer. They want to be paid for all
their time and effort. And I'm like, but you're getting
this education for free. So circling back to AI, they can
have that education, they can see that online, but they don't
feel the experience. Right, right.
By the way, only because, only because you brought it up, can
you talk about why you guys are both here in Austin.
Ohio. Yeah, I'll let.
No, you're way more eloquent. So we are with flavour forays so
Barb Mathias and Beverly Stevens from.
They're they're in the room, they're off, they're off camera,
but they're. Here they're the icons that like
I read food Arts religiously if nobody knows like because food
arts hasn't been around for a while now, but but.
It was the magazine that I would look forward to.
Yeah, I would get in my in my box.
I would go check it. Who's in the back?
I. Still have Who's the chef feed?
Recognize this time. And so when I talk about being
able to volunteer and experience and everything, it's the
generosity of people like Bev and Barb that that create these
culinary experiences for chefs in different cities where we get
to meet these farmers, we get to meet other chefs, we get to
spend time and get to know each other.
And you're in in enriched exponentially.
And again, it's that learning is that I want to learn more about
what you do. I want to learn more about what
you do right. And so and I think and it's
also, it's also curated in a way that that each experience is
valuable. So you're on this culinary
excursion for, what, last three days?
Yep. Yeah, the last three days.
It was for me, like we at I work for Addington companies.
We try to take our leaders to like NRA Cater source that's
national Restaurant Association for people there the common fan
and this has been the single most like educational 3 days and
just picking up stuff and. And you get to meet a whole
bunch of new chefs. Yeah, your network.
Grows yeah like, and you know it's not even seeing the farm.
It's the you know like I've mentioned twice already that
the. I'm on the bus with Chef Helene
and, and talking to some of the people at what's Texas Pete's
Hot sauce was there and some other chefs and chef friend of
mine that said of the mansion at Troll Creek.
Like so that, you know, the whole experience is so eye
opening and learning and, and yeah, it's been very impactful.
It's been awesome. And so I think, again, circling
all the way back to the beginning of our conversation,
if you can make the work easier, if you can automate the
administrative part, you can make time to participate in
things. Yeah.
That's an excellent point. It's an excellent point.
And I think we're, we're, we know more about food, but we're,
we're losing a little bit of that connection.
And not everyone, but like there's some chefs that are in
the dirt, right? They're growing their food and
they are in it. But there's other chefs that
just, you know, they're, they're looking at a, a beautiful social
media picture. They're trying to replicate it,
but they don't really understand what they're replicating.
And I think again, back to the, to the original point, like you
said, is getting back in the kitchen, cooking, connecting
with food, go to the farmers market, talk to the talk to the
farmer, taste some food, cut an orange, eat it, see what, see
what food tastes like again and reconnect with it.
And, and we run the risk of all the food starting to look the
same because we're all, all eyes are pointed in the same
direction. And I and I think if you could
just, you know, take a step back, look around, have an
expression like if everyone's looking at the front door, look,
look at the alley, like look at the side door.
Because if you if you sound like everyone else, you end up just
like everyone else. So I always like say be the
exception to the rule. Where we at on time?
How how you doing? I'm good.
I'm. I'm going to wrap it up in a
minute. We'll give you 1.
Last, we'll probably talk with you guys.
No, no. We do this all day.
I just I'm trying to think I want to get one last question in
with you before you. I, I think again, it's, it's, I
love the, the conversation about the marriage of technology and
soul, but that they're not mutually exclusive, right?
But it actually gives you, you know, a, a doorway to explore
more. You just have to get comfortable
with, you know, with it. I mean, let's face it, you know,
it's been an evolution, right? It's been a journey for us.
We didn't use. I wrote stuff on the back of a
napkin and I had a little, you know, a little inspire.
Yeah, little, no pocket and a pencil.
And that's how I wrote recipes, right?
That's how I learned. Yeah, I used to.
I used to go to Google and like look something up and then quiz
people. Do you know what that means?
That word that I just learned or something like that, that when
we only had the food lovers companions, Like no, you can't
use the food lovers companion. But I love that, yeah.
Right, it was the book. What was that other book, the
one that had like the ingredients it was by?
Culinary artistry, yes. Yeah.
Is that it? The Karen somebody?
Yeah. Like it's like Konenburger.
Is that the flavour? Was it the flavour?
Bible. No, no, it was, I think it was
called. Yeah, but it had all the
different. Yeah.
And it by season and what? Yeah, it's culinary artistry.
I think I went through copies of that.
There's a, you know, Gary Kunz is in there and Hubert Keller,
like, all the like, Charlie Palmer's in there.
There's a bunch of legends. Yeah.
Like having their menus on it, too.
That was really. Cool.
You know, you know what I have? You know what my most prized
possession is like? My most prized chef possession
is is I have a menu from the Savoy from Escoffier.
Oh wow, wow, that's the big one. That's pretty.
Yeah, like 1929 or something like that.
Yeah. That's like my most prized
culinary possession. I haven't like, you know, in a
safety deposit box somewhere. But yeah, it's like, it's, it's
really cool when you, when you look at where we came from as
chefs and you know, Escoffier, Hey, I don't know if anyone's
read his, his book. We were talking books right now.
Well, I I have. It's funny, I try to tell like
young chefs and stuff. Like I have the brown Escoffier,
the Leggy. Yeah, that's just like.
No, but have you read Ritz and Escoffier?
No, like that is such a great book.
People listening. You should read that book
because the guy was a rock star. He's kind of a crook too, you
know, right, like they but there's some there's some funny
stories in there. Just how he was the original
celebrity chef and he would here's a here's a tip is he had
his clientele and they would come in and he would name dishes
after them. And so that's why you have a lot
of yeah, the Peach Melba. He would name it after all his
his high rollers that would come into into the Ritz but or the
Savoy or wherever he was at the time.
But but talk about having time to connect with his customers
yet to know them right, and it builds your so I, I think that's
it. I think that you know the last
point for me or what I'd like to say, and it's been like such a
great time talking to you. I wish, you know, we had more
time, but I I think don't underestimate what hospitality
means both inside your kitchen and outside your kitchen.
Yeah, right. And true hospitality is like
embracing that generosity of spirit that I think most chefs
have and that love and respect for ingredients, producers,
execution, all parts of it till it goes to the dish.
And I think that finally on the AI, you know, things like air,
you have to get comfortable with a platform that's literally
going to take something from the mind of the chef to the mouth of
the consumer, right? Because that's going to.
And it's that connectedness can only make us better.
Well, chef, I'm sorry that you can't stay.
I know you got a plane to catch. We're going to keep talking, but
I'll. Try to follow, I don't.
No, no, this was fun. We got to have you back on SO.
I'd love to come to Austin. Yeah, Yeah.
Come to Austin, we'll have you back on.
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Yeah, that's. Been great.
We'll be in touch. All right, take care.
Have a safe flight. Have a great rest of the
podcast. So when people are starting in
your kitchen, how do you train them?
You know, How many kitchens do you oversee right now?
Right now 4 there's for people. That are listening.
What are the four restaurants? Commissary, the porch, mirador
and tango room all in Dallas. I have a little to a lot to do
with the quality control with the restaurants in the Jewel
Hotel, so the CBD provisions and cesetta, but.
Great restaurants, by the way. Thank you.
A lot of people working hard to make sure that they are.
Yeah. So, yeah, so I like basically
head up the whole F&B department for my company, whether it's
from the house or back of the house.
So I think for a long time we operated in silos and we had a
lot of, you know, great, you know, icons.
Like I said, I got to work with junior Mike Sandoni, Scott
Romano that were in the kitchens for Headington companies.
And now as you know, I grow in my career and, and, and in in
culinary. It's like kind of trying to find
those people I've had success with, you know, putting people
I've worked with in the past as cooks and sous chefs and all
that stuff in executive chef positions.
But we are kind of in the process of trying to homogenize
what those training things are because you know, you've done a
great job in in your books of, of putting those in a concise
form of kind of like, you know, like, so you want to do this.
Yeah, yeah, I put those so like I could say what you can't say,
right? So you'll if you say it, you
might get in trouble with it, right if I say it.
You know, it's like that thing where like, you know, all
executive chefs, you know, we go out like I had this one cook do
this the other day and you're like, now you roll your eyes
about it. And, and that we were, we were
talking about it on with Chef Helene.
Like I was like, you know, I remember distinctly executive
chef, it's my first executive chef gig.
I see this young cook, she has so much potential, right?
She's like hustling, doing this thing and she pulls a pan out
super fast and there's like it had fat head rendered.
It was on a great, you know, and and it, it the fat came over her
hand. Yeah.
And immediately let her suck. I'm like, hey, we're gonna wrap
that up. Take a second, you know, busy
service Saturday night. And this is a 24 hour hotel
restaurant. We do in room dining overnight.
You know, it's technically 28 mil periods a week.
So it's a hoss. And, you know, she's like, she
gets back on the line that night and she's like, I'm like, OK,
cool. Like, you know, she the next
morning I told her I was like, how to take care of it.
You know, I've had second degree burns numerous times.
And she gives her a call. Hey, I went to urgent care.
I'm like, OK. She's like they say I can't come
back to work for seven days. And I'm like, OK, and at that
point, you know, she sends the thing to HR and I'm like, OK,
you know, and I just kind of like, like you said the thing,
you can't say it's like, dude, like I know that it hurts and I
know that, you know, like I don't want you to re injure it
or anything, but it's on the back of your hand.
It's a burn. Like you come back, take the day
off today. I mean, but like you could come
back, you know, and if it's important to you and like it's,
it's, it's not even the like selfish part of like hand needed
manifestation. It's like show up for your
people. Like the person on Garmin is
being next to you, you know, like you look to your left and
like, you know, me and Helene kind of were talking, you know,
we got to this place of like, I think that there's a romanticism
with like, kind of when you and I came in the game of the the
chef that, you know, calls you a donk, you know, that Gordon
Ramsay, like, I mean, you know, for a long time had the most
Michelin stars. He was my icon.
And you know, but there's a romanticism about it.
And I think there is because like a kind of creative
community because you guys were all we were all in the like jail
together, you know, experiencing the abuse a little bit, But it's
that community, right? Like, how do you create those
communities where like, it's not that like, you know, like
switching the mindset to where she got that note and she was
like, fuck, like out seven days. What, dude?
Like, no, I gotta get back in the kitchen.
Yeah, I want to cook. Like, I like to make things.
I like to be in there. I like to shut my eyes for a
second, hear the click of the plates and the the timer's going
off and someone yelling behind and you know, like this the the
ticket part. Part of the issue I well, by the
way, and I I think I should say like to each their own like like
if if, if if you are sick, like don't get.
It yeah, yeah, I don't want like.
But what I will say is a lot, I think a lot of people love the
idea of being a chef more than they love being a chef, Right,
right. It's, it's not what it, when you
get in and it's like, oh, it's a lot harder.
It's, it's hotter, it's more physical.
There's the personalities, there's all the personalities in
the kitchen. And I, and I think a lot of
people, you know, they think, well, I'm a good cook and I love
food. I should become a chef.
It's like, Nope, you might not love working in kitchens, which
are two completely different things, loving food and loving
working in kitchens, two different things.
If you love both, you're a Unicorn.
If you love working in kitchens and you love food, you're going
to be a great chef, Right. But you can't love food but hate
working in kitchens. Yeah, you have to like, if
you're going to be a chef, you have to enjoy that environment
because it's it's it's not for everyone.
Here's a a funny story because you brought up Scott Romano.
I don't know if he's going to listen to this, but maybe you'll
send it to him back, let's say 2010.
I'm hope. I'm hoping I could find a
picture of this and I'll put it in the in the podcast.
We were judging. I was judging something with
Ferdinand Matt, certified master chef.
Yeah, he's a legend, right? Oh my God.
Yeah. We were judging something in
Dallas. We were judging a reality show
auditions and afterwards it was honestly one of the greatest
days of my life because here I'm like, that's fucking for a damn
match, right? Right.
Like I'm like the dude, it's just me and him and we're
hanging out all day and I'm picking his brain all day long.
It was it was amazing, right? And he comes up to me and he
says, Andre, gather some chefs. Let's let's cook.
And I was like, oh, shit, like who do I know?
And I was, I was like scrambling to like, because it's we're
going to cook like at midnight. He just wants to get together,
cook and eat with the Dallas chefs.
And Scott Romano was there. Matt McAllister.
I'm trying to think, who else was there?
Brian Lucier. David, you're.
No, he was not there, not that time.
He was there a different time, OK, Because we did one at
Charlie Palmer's. I was there.
That's right, but I don't think Ferdinand Metz was there that.
No, he wasn't. That's why I was like, am I
misremembering? How?
How could I? Yeah, no, no, we did.
So we did three. The first one we did, it wasn't
a lot of us. It was a couple of food writers,
one from Dallas, one from New York for Nan Mets.
Like I said, Matt McAllister, Brian Luscher, myself, Scott
Romanen. Yeah, and there's maybe I'm
probably missing. People remember getting like
kind of like verging 2 memories. But I was probably, I was either
at the time the tornado because the one that you did with David
Huger, I was at that one. I cooked something there.
I was a sous chef then, but I was probably on the line.
I remember getting that together cuz I remember like Scott.
'S yeah, I was there. I was there.
That. Met.
'S crazy. Yeah.
So I was there that day and I'm trying to think.
I remember we did it there at the, at the Jewel in Charlie
Palmer's right. It was myself, Scott.
I don't remember who else was there that day, but I remember
David Huger. Myself and Scott were there.
I remember David Huger made soft scrambled eggs.
Yeah, he made. And he did on a double boiler.
Yeah. Yeah.
Shit. You're bringing back memories.
I could do some. I had not thought about that
until right now. And.
I would remember just like I made my.
I can't even remember what I mean.
That's why kids write it down, dude.
Write it down, Yeah. Anything you make take a photo,
you can take a photo now. Yeah, but I just remember
watching him cook being like, Oh my God, I got to take notes of
this. Like yeah, movie is so precise
and exact. Where's Scott now?
He's in the Ozarks. He really nice hotel.
It's great to see him cook. That man can cook man.
Everything that I know like and I've for the longest time, I
think most people when they get into it.
I kind of got into his second career, like I felt like
imposter syndrome, but like, like being a cook for him and
then getting, you know, promoted, like him promoting me
to a sous chef and, and being his sous chef with it.
Like, you know, for myself, I don't really care what everyone
else, but like, I kind of wear it as a batch of honor because
like he really taught you how to cook.
We did all of our own stuff, all from scratch.
Actually, I remember something Scott made that day.
He made a ravioli with like a coffee broth.
Yeah, with a with a egg yolk in the scenario he Yeah.
Yeah, cuz he, he, I remember he put he put coffee in his veal
stock or something like that. Yeah, it was really good.
I stole that from him. I was like, I mean like it was
good. It's like he had I was like, he
infused the veal stock with coffee beans and.
That's where everything was Smart would do.
He would do when he would do menu changes.
Yeah, he like net, like it was all creativity.
He never thought about like, is this going to be too hard?
And I remember like one time I was on fish station and I was,
it was like there was, there was a, a dish that he did that like
if you didn't get it down like immediately and started, it was
1 pan pickup, but it was like everything you build in the pan.
It was like 11 minutes, I think was the fastest you could get it
out. And I went on vacation and
somehow he ended up on the the like, he had to work it one, one
day. Yeah.
And I came back and he he grabbed me and he's like,
Connor, your station is really hard.
And I'm like, I know it's. Probably harder when you're the
executive. Chef right, like oh man of the
show. He's like, he's like, OK, he's
like we had like I think and it was that dish like we had like,
I think a restaurant we coming. I was like, yeah, I'm taking off
that dish for Restaurant Week. And I was like, Oh my God, thank
you. Like, but yeah, no, he
creativity wise and and just like the basis of of cooking.
Yeah, you know, making it taste good.
He taught me my first day in his kitchen.
I made a steak tartare with not a lick of fucking salt.
Yeah. And he like, I mean, just, he's
everywhere. He'd come box up, he sees this
steak tartare and he just looks he's like, who made this?
Well, like me chef is like, OK, he just like, I mean, he was
gonna have me make another one no matter what.
So he just takes a spoon, tastes it and I can see like his jaw
kind of, you know, tighten, swallow it.
He's like stand right there. He makes 1 and I see it and it
was basically I made it like that because like the a garmage,
a cook told me how to make it like wrote like, now you do
this, now you do this, now you do this and just left out like
season and taste it right, right.
It should be in every recipe and, you know, made it
beautifully perfect, delicious. He's like taste yours and taste
mine. And I tasted it and I was like,
yeah, chef, you know, And it was like from there I was like,
dude, you know, basically don't be the biggest idiot in the
kitchen, right, Like, right, right, right.
But yeah, no, he's a sorry. I could go on about Scott.
He's great. No, he's a great guy.
I, I, I, like I said, I think the last time I spoke with him
was at probably at that dinner at Charlie Palmer.
So I haven't. I'm not good at keeping in
contact these days. But yeah, he was.
He's a legend. He's a legend.
He's a fantastic cook. Who else was there that day
besides David Huger and Leon Scott?
You seem to remember Chef Kelly. He was down at I can't remember
his first name. His last name was Kelly.
He was great too. Like he was like the first, like
cuz you know when back then, like everyone wore a chef coat.
Yeah, I. Remember, I can't remember his
first name. It was still cool to wear a chef
coat. Yeah.
He he wore white. All white, white embroidery.
Right, Right. Yeah, Brigard.
He wore a just a cook shirt. I was like that's so bad ass
dude, like just coming in and like he's like I'm on a cook
shirt dude, and he worked at like this place while salsa down
the street, but he worked at a bunch of other He was a great
chef. We got way off.
So how do you so new cook coming into your kitchens?
Yeah, yeah. What are some things that you
tell them to get them set up for success?
One, you know, write it down. Notebook pen, Yeah.
Bad pen is better than a good memory.
Yeah, yeah. And then always, you know, like,
you know, we're kind of we have a restaurant too, where like you
have some cooks that don't have their own knives, have their
knife, you know, the, the, the, the, the person that served for
JOBI really told them like, look, do you want a JOB or do
you want a career? You know, because like here you
are doing a job, but like, if you want a career in this is
what you're doing when you're not here.
That's really important. And I, you know, it was Scott,
it was Mike kind of teaching me those things.
What are you reading? What are the people that inspire
you? Are you like we?
For a short time, we had this culture at Charlie Palmer where
all the Cokes went out after and the first drink, no one talked.
Everyone looked over their notes, saw what they did, you
know, and if they had a struggling pick up, if something
lagged, you know, like they would, we would go over that
together Sometimes, you know, of like, OK, like this ticket sunk
the line. Yeah.
Like on your station, motherfucker.
Like, so like, let's go over this and see like where we went
wrong and get the timing right because guys, it's hard.
So I used to do those as well. I used to call them a post shift
nameless, rankless debrief, right?
I think I might have picked that up from Blue Angels maybe.
I don't know, but it was it was great.
Like put everyone's rank to the side.
We're outside. Like what went wrong?
What went right? Let's talk about and everything
that went wrong. Let's talk about how to fix it.
Let's not fucking turn this into a complaining session.
Like how do we fix it? And if we can't fix it, take it
off the menu. Right.
And so like it was those things I would look at my prep list.
I still have these books. I, I try to, I show the young
cook wants it like here, let me show you what I did in 2 1/2
hours that day because it's like it's impressing me.
I'm like, how did I get all this done?
You know, like, because once that's what really, you know,
there's a there's a young cook that came on the line that was
seasoned, came from like a a like kind of a restaurant family
from Saint Louis. Yeah, he's a really talented
chef since Ryan Carberry, but he was on the line with me and he's
like, you know, we go out and kind of like shoot the shit and
he's like, guys, what are you doing?
Like we had the worst service ever.
Like, no, like, no, we're not having always go over this.
And like, once, you know, that kind of stuck with everyone.
It was like, it almost became a competition, like how much you
could get done, you know, And then like, everyone was just
kind of calm. It was funny.
Like it it, it got to a point where the sous chefs were
running around crazy and the cooks were coming up to me and
like, hey, what do you need me to do?
It's important to create that culture because it could quickly
become a race to the bottom right if if it's not competitive
and we're all winners and we have a winners mindset.
And if all of us, when we went together, I mean, we're all
driving forward and we're all getting Better Together, it
could easily turn into the other, into the opposite, which
is we all suck. Nothing's good.
Everything's broken. And it just becomes a pile of
excuses why we can't get better. And it's, and I'll be honest
with people like I've been in all those kitchens and the ones
that are like that, I promise you they were fixable, right?
But they're not fixable if no one wants to fix it.
Yeah, they give a shits like how do you, how do you?
And like, that's where my frustration with the world, I
guess, is like, how do you, how do you get that?
Like, you know, because I've been in interviewing chefs, even
stodging them, like, dude, stodging and and and tasting
like tasting's the worst. Like, so you can cook, you know,
like so many cooks can cook. Cooks make food, chefs make
money. But also chefs are leaders.
I don't see your leadership when you cook by yourself, you know,
like, yeah, great. Everything is perfect.
How do you scale it? How do you scale it?
And like the thing was like that culture at that time, it came
from like the bottom up. And that's easy.
Like when it's coming from the cooks.
Yeah. How do you how do you you know
what are the? How do you do that?
How do you implement that though now into your kitchen so.
You know, I'm it's, it's, it's hard.
Like I make mistakes. Like, you know, I think that
like at right now where the restaurant that I'm in, you
know, 5-4 days a week, like as the chef, It's, it's, you know,
I, I made the mistake because like it wasn't being being
driven top down or that culture wasn't being driven.
But I think that like, you know, the things that I spend my time
on that I feel like have been effective is what are your Ray
Dalio? Dalio has a great book called
principles. Like what are your principles?
What are the things that like define you as a chef?
And what are the things that like and, and, and principles
are like something that you you just will not, you know, go back
on. Like one of my things is like,
if you take a knife out, you better have a steal.
It's a principle. It doesn't happen.
Like I don't put shoes on without socks because it feels
weird. I never do it.
It's like, what what is that thing that you're willing to
like? OK, like, I guess I'm late, but
like, I'm still going to put my shoes on.
You know, I'm not going to be like a minute extra, not late
and not and go barefoot. You know it's a good.
Example. Like so it's a.
Good visual. So that's like the, the what are
what are those things for you, you know, and it's kind of like
you have to have to make sure they're being done.
I think that like, you know, Chafeline is spot on.
Like anything that like minimum like that we can use technology
to minimize our time that's outside the kitchen.
If that is one thing that hasn't smacked gobsmacked me right in
the face the last three weeks, it's like, man, I can be so
effective if I'm in the kitchen. Right.
True training people. Training people and what are
you? Doing and not only that, but you
start to notice when you're in the kitchen and, and I'm not
trying to insult any sous chefs out there, but there's a lot of
asshole sous chefs. I I have, there's this meme.
I don't know if you watch UFC, do you watch fights?
I do every now and. Then so there's John Jones and
Daniel Cormier going back and forth, you know, with a hot mic,
right? And John Jones is like, hey,
pussy, you still there? And he's like, I'm here.
It's like I clipped it. And I said that to a chef friend
of mine was like, as soon as the chef leaves, the sous chef to
the cooks, right? Because as soon as the chef
leaves, some of those sous chefs turn into tyrants, right?
As soon as the chef walks out, the sous chef is bananas.
Now I'm in charge. You're now the chef's not here.
And I think when the chef sometimes go into the kitchen
and they spend more time and they see what's going on, they
talk to their people, they find out what's really going on in
the kitchen. They find out how their teams
feel. They find out what's working.
People will start to tell them things, but none of that's going
to happen if you're not, if you're not present, right.
And I think being present is one of the most important things
that you could do as a chef because I, I promise you, chefs
that are listening, your team needs you.
Yeah. Your team needs you.
They need you in the kitchen. They need you showing them
things. They need you working with them
whenever you can. And I know you can't.
It's not really. Your, your, your sous chefs need
you. I mean, I spent a lot of your
time as a sous chef because I had that like one.
I was a little bit of a psychopath when I started.
You kind of inherited a little bit, but also like, you know,
I'll never forget it because it clicked, because I saw all my
friends kind of getting promoted to exact sooner than me, you
know, because I I was I would like, I mean, I'm not now, like
don't don't put me like, but I was a bad ass motherfucker on
the line. Like when when someone came in
like Thomas Keller, I cooked everything but Leslie Brenner,
the the local, like Connor, you cook everything on her ticket,
you know, like. And I bumped into her the other
day at Italy. Oh, I love her.
Yeah. She's great.
And you know, I said to my chef, like, what?
What? What's what's going, you know,
like, why? Why is it never me, dude?
And he's like, you know, you walk around here like you're the
baddest motherfucker and you make sure everyone knows, like,
yeah, but I am. He's like, who the fuck cares?
They all they they knew that before.
Before they came in her work. You know why?
Because you're wearing the fucking jacket, my man.
Yeah. Like they expect it.
They're not surprised. If you weren't, they would be
kicking to the curb, you know what I mean?
Like, yeah, you better be. But you act like it's some
fucking cool thing, like, Oh my God, aren't you impressed?
No, they're not my dad. Actually, I came home one time.
My dad visited me, you know, and this was, I was so sous chef and
he was using my knife. And I'm like, are you like, you
know, like I'm like, isn't that such a sharp knife?
He's like, yeah, like, well, yeah, aren't you, like, isn't
that cool? And he's like, well, I mean, if
it wasn't, I'd be a surprise, you know what I mean?
Like, and learning that of like, dude, like, you know, humble
yourself a little bit. But also, like, like, that's the
expectation. Danny Meyer talks about.
You have 1000 eyes on you once you're a manager and they expect
everything of you. And if you're an executive chef,
not being with your sous chefs, your sous chefs can create so
much damage. I create so much damage.
And looking back at it in my role now and being like, oh man,
Scott and Mike had to put up with me being a dumb shit.
And even like when I was a chef for junior and junior had to put
up with me when I was being a dumb shit.
Because you're if you're in a position where you're an
executive chef and you have a corner director, like my corner
director was junior, you know, like, dude, like you haven't
learned anything yet. Even as an exec chef.
Yeah, still be open to learning, you know, and and I learned a
bunch from him too. So it's it's.
Did you go to Junior's new place?
Yeah, Nick and Junior. How was it?
It's great. I'm going this week.
So good. Yeah, I think it's always good.
It's always good.
What do you think about the Michelin Guide coming to to
Texas, specifically the Dallas dining scene?
And specifically, where do you think fine dining's going?
You know, we like it. It definitely it was, I mean, we
talked about all the time. It was a push, you know, like
when we first found out. I feel like they, they, they,
they made the announcement. They'd already visit us.
Yeah, I think so. You know, it's surprising to me,
I guess in a lot of ways, kind of kind of some of the
selections I think that did it. Surprise you who wasn't
selected? Yes who?
Who do you think in Dallas got snapped like they they should
have gotten a star. I think Toby should have gotten
a star at a quarter acre. I think he got the
recommendation, but that dude's food is.
He's a legit chef. I mean, yeah.
And I'm kind of like, well, I've eaten everywhere and he has the
best food. So, yeah, and you're a chef.
Like I'm trying to like RIP him off and like, you know, like I'm
like, wait a minute, like, you know, and, and I kind of was
like what? And I've eaten at Michelin star
restaurants all around. I'm eating at 2 Michelin star
restaurants. And like when I ate at his when
he opened, I was like, well, well, I'm glad we have a
Michelin star restaurant here, even though it's not, you know,
yeah, it is like in my mind because it it, it compares and
what he's doing, you know, with, with, you know, his little
kitchen and, and, and the cook station there.
It's more of the fact that they didn't, you know, give out a
star thinking about that. Where do you think fine dining
is going? Do you think it's dead?
Do you think it's making a company?
No, I just think it's different. Like I, you know, I think that
like I've always kind of been cutting my teeth with fine
dining, working at Charlie Palmer and being kind of in that
group. Like I've done a bunch of events
with Matt too. I think all of us kind of got to
the point and maybe yourself included, where like fine dining
was fine. You know, it's fine, but you
know, sorry, I mispronounced everything.
It was as of as of ease off, ease off.
You know that like you come in, you wouldn't think it's a super
fine dining, but like that is kind of like it is though, like
it's it's not fine dining isn't like, you know, the Adam Tahani
designed, you know, restaurant on the top floor of some
building. You know, fine dining is the
approach at with at which you respect the ingredients and food
that goes out in my mind. So I think that, you know, and
and respecting the experience because is a linear fine dining.
Of course it is. But like, I think that, you
know, I know a lot of people have a lot to say about David
Chain, but what he did with Momofuku was like, dude, I love
this wholesome street food like this dish and I have all these
chops for fine dining. Like I'm going to poach it like
that. So I think that we're seeing
that now, you know, where it like it can be less fussy.
I don't know. No, I, I think you're on to it.
And I think fine dining has evolved and I've been ranting
about fine dining a lot. And I think as we talked about
earlier, I think as we lose a little bit of the connection to
food and I think sometimes we're cooking too much like each other
versus like ourselves. The funny thing about that, like
you mentioned something earlier and me and Barb, I was talking
about food arts. I have like 50 of them in my
office and my wife was like, can we throw these away?
I'm like no, like no, like it's in the prenom somewhere.
No, but like. She's off camera, but can I get
some of those food arts magazines too?
Like, I'm kind of a collector of pack rat and so like, just great
reference points, but people got to create, yeah, in their own
silo for a bit. You know, I remember, you
remember when like, I don't think they're doing anymore.
But like, we would wait every, what, four months for the art
culinary 3 months to come out. Yeah.
And like, be like, holy shit, look what they're doing.
Yeah. Like you said, like we go
everyone like the next every day goes on Instagram, sees what
their favorite chefs are doing. He's like, I'm gonna make food
like that, right. You know.
And so there's these like echo chambers we're building like a
circular Trump that just goes up instead.
Before it was like this beautiful tree.
Yeah, where people were creating what would food.
Look, like if there was no incentive structure and there
was, and you were, and you weren't cooking for likes and,
you know, like social media. Oh man, it just be like for me
it would just be stews. It'd be delicious, Yeah, Like it
would be. It would be.
It would be delicious first. Building flavors, yeah, You
know. Chef, normally when we wrap up I
always ask chefs like if you had a Mount Rushmore of chefs that
you would put on rum on Mount Rushmore.
OK, which 4 chefs to you should be on the chef Mount Rushmore?
Man, that's like, I mean, there's like my, the personal
like, you know? Like that's all right.
The personal is good too. Give them, give them some, give
them their flowers. I mean, my personal is for me
is, is Scott Romano. Yeah.
And, you know, as an extension of Scott, Charlie Palmer,
because, you know, he was in those kitchens every day and and
he, you know, like Scott worked for him forever.
So. And then Mike Sandoni.
I always kind of tell people like Scott taught me how to cook
and like taught me how to be a chef.
He's like, what are you doing leadership wise?
Like, yeah, sure you can cook, you know, And then like overall,
like I really those those first BBC series, like boiling point
that had Mark a pure white and you saw I think Boiling point
was Gordon Ramsay. 'S yeah, it was Gordon Ramsay.
What was Mark? A pure Mark is first.
They did one with Mark Pure White.
That was that one. And Gordon Ramsay's in the
background. Yeah, young cook.
Young cook Gordon, you're right. Yeah.
He looks exactly the same, by the way.
Yeah, in those videos, Yeah. He's like, why does he not age?
Why does he always look that way?
And then the boiling point with him.
I I do think that, like, American media was like
sensationalized the, like, calling people donkeys and
stuff. And yeah, like, I'm not, you
know, proud of any time that I let the temper get the best of
me. But like, you can't deny what he
did for professional cooking was that Marco.
And just like his commitment to excellence and and the BBC like
restaurant rescue one that he did, the one that was BBC where
he's not yelling at it and it's put together really well.
It's not like a yeah, you know, he's like having real.
It was like the original Kitchen Nightmares, right?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, those are really good
because you see the hospitality, you see the soul, you know.
It wasn't the made for TV drama. Yeah, and you know, I someone
else's. Gosh, it's it's really hot you,
buddy. Thank you.
What you're doing now, I mean. I'll tell you like you're the
first person to say that every single guest moving forward
should say me. Yeah.
Well, I just like someone that's like looking at like, I'm just
kidding, make it like, you know, something that I do think that
like has been really beneficial with with all the technology.
It's just making it like, stop gatekeeping.
Yeah, stop. Like, I mean, anyone could cook.
My favorite, my favorite movie about cooking, like that's
actually about cooking is probably Ratatouille and that
like message. I like everyone can cook it.
Like I do believe that it's more of a a craft honestly.
Like emerald lagasse dude. Emerald, emerald.
He's like. Shit, man.
I love Emerald. Yeah, yeah, I love him.
No one ever complaints that the rat was tasting food.
That's true. Like he was washing his hands
well. Like, and then like serving it.
The rats tasting food. Oh yeah, that's good.
Go ahead and serve it. The rat approved.
It's a cartoon. My other two moves I recommend.
Whiplash. It's a cartoon, but it's
influencing kids to cook with rats on their shoulders.
Whiplash about the drumming, you know, 1 is I try to be a
musician. Yeah.
If anyone knows anything about music schools, they are not like
that at all. Like you have like the the
instructor smoking weed, like they're all just like, hey,
groovy, man. No one, no one's that intense.
But kitchens can be like that. And that message of like of this
dude's totally trying to breaking down this, this
musician. And then they get to a point of
mutual understanding and it's when like the musician fights
back and it's like, no, dude, I'm standing on equal level with
you. That was pretty.
That's a pretty great movie. If, if you know when, what
people need to think about when they work in kitchens is you're
going to work 8 or 10 hours or or more and you're either going
to work and love it or you're going to work and, and not love
it. But if you work and you love it,
you'll be more successful. If you, if you could decide that
you love what you're doing, you will be more successful at it
because the food's going to taste better.
People are going to taste it through your food.
People are going to want to be around you.
It's going to become infectious. So yeah, if you're going to be
in this business anyway, you have to work just as hard
regardless. You might as well work hard,
like and and love. It oh man, like the last super
long. I mean, you, you get tired when
you don't work, but like, you know, when you put a 12 hour day
in or 14 hour day in and like you're, you're like at the end
of it, you're like, I wish there was like 36 hours in a day
because like this, this and this.
I want to get set up for tomorrow, but there's just no
time. Yeah.
Like that's when you know you got something, I think.
Well, Chef, it was fun having you on work.
Thank you. Find you.
In Dallas, you know. All the restaurants.
All the restaurants, I'll put my e-mail up here, you know
Instagram handle C under score Sergeant.
Why it's spelled funky. No one in my family knows how
to. Spell I'll put in the show.
Yeah. My, my first name's spelled
wrong. My last name's spelled wrong.
Yeah, anything I write is spelled wrong.
Also, I use ChatGPT for that. Yeah, Yeah.
There you go. Well, chef, thank you.
Good to have you on. Thank you so much.
Yeah, thank you, everyone. Awesome.
Well, I hope you enjoyed the show.
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