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What's up everyone? 
You are listening to the CDs Mag

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podcast. 
I'm your host Chris Chavez, and 

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every week we go beyond the 
results to bring you 

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conversations with the biggest 
names on the track, the roads 

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and behind the scenes. 
From world class athletes and 

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coaches to innovators shaping 
the sport. 

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If it's happening on the track, 
we're covering it with real 

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insights that sharpen minds, 
deep dives into the moments that

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define careers, and the kind of 
access to the pros you won't get

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anywhere else. 
So let's get into it because we 

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love track and field. 
Before we get to today's 

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episode, a quick bit of 
housekeeping and a big thank 

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you. 
You know, we love giving our 

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listeners a shout out when they 
drop us a review on Apple 

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podcast. 
It genuinely helps more people 

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find the show and it means a lot
to us. 

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But here's the deal, we're 
running low. 

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My only holiday wish this year. 
Truly all I want for Christmas 

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is a fresh batch of five star 
reviews. 

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So if you've been meaning to tap
that five star or leave a few 

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kind words, consider this your 
sign. 

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Make my wish come true. 
And while we're talking about 

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gratitude, a massive shout out 
to everyone listening on 

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Spotify. 
You all showed up this year. 

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11.7 million minutes of 
listening across 92 countries. 

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Our top five were the US, no 
surprise there. 

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The UK, those are those pre 
superfans. 

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Canada, that's our neighbors up 
north, Australia. 

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I give all credit to Mitch for 
those listeners and Ireland and 

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apparently we were the number 
one show for more than 13,000 of

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you. 
That blows my mind. 

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So if we landed in your top five
on Spotify rap, then you posted 

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it on your Instagram story. 
We saw those tags, we 

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screenshotted a few and we 
appreciate every single one from

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me and producer Jasmine Fair. 
Thank you truly. 

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We packed in so many shows in 
2025 and we're somehow creeping 

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toward 1000 episodes since 2017,
which is just wild. 

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We do this because of and for 
listeners like you. 

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Let's keep this thing going. 
My guest on today's episode is a

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close friend of Sidious Mag and 
for the better part of a decade,

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one of the most respected, most 
relatable marathoners in the 

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United States, Scott Faubel. 
He's here with us for a big 

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announcement. 
After years of doing things his 

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way, and doing them well, Scott 
is officially retiring from 

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professional running. 
If you've followed American 

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marathoning at any point over 
the last seven or eight years, 

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you know that Scott wasn't just 
good, he was consistently, 

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relentlessly, unapologetically 
confident. 

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Boston became his stage top 
American in 2019, 2022 and 2023,

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each time dipping under 210 back
when that wasn't happening all 

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that often. 
He even beat Conor Mance in 

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Boston before Conor Mance became
the star that we know now. 

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And sure, if Scott had spent the
last few years chasing flat fast

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courses like Chicago or London, 
his PR probably maybe lives 

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somewhere in the 2O Sevens, but 
that was never the point. 

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You could hear it in past 
interviews that we've done with 

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him. 
Scott built his career with a 

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chip on his shoulder and gave 
American fans something real to 

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root for at these major 
marathons. 

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His toughness, his honesty, and 
the way he kept levelling up 

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made you believe in the power of
hard work. 

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In this episode, we look back on
that career, unpack what 

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happened over the last few 
years, and talk about what it 

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means to move on and move 
forward from the sport that 

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shaped him. 
So without further ado, here is 

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Scott Fawble for another Sidious
Mag exit interview. 

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All right, it's time. 
People have been asking for this

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interview. 
I think a lot of people chose to

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also not believe that the news 
we're about to share is true 

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until he sat down and did an 
exit interview with Sidious. 

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But we're here for Scott 
Fawble's exit interview at last.

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Scott, it's been way too long. 
How you doing? 

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Yeah, yeah, it has been a while.
We always like do these 

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interviews when I do something 
good or smart. 

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And I haven't done any anything 
publicly good or smart in a 

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while. 
So yeah, no, this has been been 

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good. 
I'm excited to sort of chop it 

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up and do some reminiscing, I 
guess. 

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OK, so right off the bat, you 
know, I guess a lot of people 

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have been wondering why it's 
probably taken so long to get 

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this news and this announcement 
out there. 

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Like for the last time people 
saw you race was at the 2024 US 

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Olympic Trials DNF. 
Very unfortunate. 

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And then from there you were 
just kind of taking your time 

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wing, you know, just what was 
next and kind of it was just 

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fall marathon season passes by, 
spring marathon, the following 

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spring marathon season passes 
by. 

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And after a while, just sort of 
like, all right, I guess that 

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was that was it. 
So what took so long? 

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I mean mostly contract 
contractually. 

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Like I've my contract with Nike 
comes up in a couple weeks here 

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and so now it's like official 
that I will no longer be being 

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paid to be a professional 
runner, which makes you not a 

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professional runner anymore. 
But I guess like in the 

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weighing, just sort of like the 
decision not to go through like 

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another marathon training cycle,
even though I'm assuming right 

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after the trials there was a 
point where you're just like, 

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all right, I'm healthy enough to
get back to training and 

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running. 
I guess at what point did you 

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start to pull back on? 
All right. 

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I'm not going to put myself 
through that intensity again. 

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Good question. 
So before the like 2024 trials, 

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I was sort of dealing with this 
thing. 

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It's called CBP, but it's 
basically like an issue with 

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your esophagus where you can't 
release gas upward. 

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So I've always had it, but for 
some reason it became like a 

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real issue before the trials 
where like I gagged on a gel in 

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a long run and then like from 
that point forward, I could not 

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go on a run without like gagging
on a gel. 

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Like I just couldn't do it. 
And part of it was like clearly 

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stress related, but part of it 
was like it's sort of woken up 

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this response in my throat. 
And that obviously was not great

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at the trials. 
I threw up 6 miles in and it was

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the first time I had like it had
ever like caused me to throw up.

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Usually it's just like a big 
sort of like retch or like which

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I could run through like I was 
doing workouts while retching 

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and I could like get through it 
just fine. 

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And I was like talking to like 
some professionals and like 

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thought I had it under control 
enough to like go race and 

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didn't obviously. 
And then so right after the 

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trials, I was like, well, OK, 
I'm like, I'm fit. 

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I Boston's coming up, I'm going 
to try to run Boston. 

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And it got like we're way worse 
than the next couple weeks. 

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And I like couldn't even get 
down my block to do a warm up 

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without retching. 
And once I retch once, it like 

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kind of would happen more and 
more frequently. 

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So if I could get through 
occasionally I could get through

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a run or I could like find a way
to get through a few days of 

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running. 
But once it happened, then I had

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to take a step back a little bit
and I just could never string 

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together enough training until I
started seeing a psychiatrist in

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like the summer and I started 
taking Prozac and Zofran, which 

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is like an anti nausea drug. 
And that like enabled me to like

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train a little bit. 
And I, I strung together enough 

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weeks where I was like, OK, I'm 
going to run New York. 

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And I was like, but I need to 
get some, like, positive race 

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reps in between now and New York
so that my first race since, 

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like, throwing up at the trials 
isn't the New York City 

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Marathon. 
And so I went down to San Diego 

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to do this, like, really, really
low key 8:00-ish mile race. 

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It was like in Balboa Park, but 
it was also on these, like, 

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weird dirt trails. 
There wasn't prize money. 

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There wasn't an elite field. 
I didn't tell anyone I was doing

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it except for my coach and my 
agent. 

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And I like really had to put the
moves on to win that like little

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tiny race. 
And I got through it without 

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like without gagging. 
I got through it like without 

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any issues really. 
But like I really had to work to

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beat some like out of shape 
college kids. 

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And at that point it was like 
pretty clear to me that I was no

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longer getting better. 
Like whatever it was that made 

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me special and made me like 
improve. 

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And I think it was mostly like 
that part of me that could race 

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really, really, really 
fearlessly was like kind of 

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gone. 
And I didn't feel like it was a 

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good use of my time to, like, 
chase it and try to find it 

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again. 
And it was kind of like, you 

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know, my wife was pregnant. 
We had just, you know, I had 

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decided I wasn't going to go 
back to Portland OR go back to 

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Boulder to train anymore. 
And I was like, my life is just 

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moving away from this. 
And I don't think I can do 

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better than what I already have 
done. 

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And once I had no longer like 
had that little piece in my 

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brain that was like, I might be 
able to win a Boston or New 

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York, I was like, this is not, 
this is not why I do this. 

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This is no longer fun for me. 
And this is not something that I

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like need or like crave or like 
I'm really, really driven to do.

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It was like, so it was actually 
a pretty easy decision. 

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Once I, once I figured out that 
I was like trying to convince 

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myself to get back to 7th place 
instead of like that little 

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piece of me being like I could 
win was gone. 

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It's like OK, well like why do I
need to do something I've 

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already done? 
So I was just done. 

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I guess like also when we've 
done these podcast interviews in

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the past, like, I guess one of 
the best things about them has 

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just been just like how honest 
and just real and realistic you 

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are just about just in general 
where you stacked up among like 

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the top marathoners. 
Could you also get the sense 

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that sort of like, all right, 
like I've been in the game for a

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bit heading into the Trials, 
like you were in a in a good 

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spot, probably training wise and
people looked at you as a 

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contender to make the team. 
And then there came a point at 

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some point in 2024, it was 
probably like the Trials too, 

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where it also did seem like 
Connor and Clayton levelled up 

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and so did kind of the the rest 
of the Americans. 

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00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:39,520
Did you also feel that in that 
time away you kind of did? 

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Did did did the marathon in the 
US get away from you a little 

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bit too? 
No, I don't think so. 

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Because like I was still like 
physically I was still, I think 

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as good as I had ever been. 
Like before the trials, I was, 

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that was my best, one of the 
best blocks I've ever had. 

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And I was recovering really well
from workouts. 

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My hip was moving better than it
has in a long time. 

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I was running good mileage. 
I like adapted really, really 

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00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:04,320
well to the heat training stuff 
we did. 

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00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:09,440
So like I think physically I was
there like I still think all 

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things being equal at the like 
last Boston, I think I would 

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have been able to compete like 
maybe not in the like front 

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group where they went out in the
60 twos. 

200
00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,880
And I don't know if I could have
run like two O 5, but like on 

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that really, really nice Boston,
I have no doubt I could have run

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really fast and really well and 
still physically competed. 

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But like mentally it was just 
not there in the same way. 

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Like, like I at various points 
to my career, I found myself 

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like, and I kind of realized 
after the fact that I was like 

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convincing myself I was talking 
myself into fitness like before 

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the 2020 trials, for example, 
like I'd gotten really sick like

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2 weeks before, 4 weeks a month 
before maybe. 

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00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:54,680
I think I got, was one of the 
first people in America to get 

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COVID actually. 
And I got very, very ill. 

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00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,480
And I was like, but I, I was 
still like a confident guy and I

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00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:01,960
was still like talking myself 
into it. 

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00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,000
I was like, no, no, I'm fit 
enough, I'm good enough, I'm 

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00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:05,800
talented enough. 
I'm better than these guys. 

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00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:08,560
And when you like try to 
convince yourself into it and 

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00:12:08,560 --> 00:12:11,360
then you get into the race and 
your legs just like you're not 

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good enough. 
That's one of the worst feelings

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00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,600
in the world. 
It's really sucks to like 

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00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,600
convince yourself with like 
every part of you that you're 

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00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,560
good enough and you got a shot. 
And there have been times when I

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was good enough and I did have a
shot and it didn't happen, but 

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when I was just not good enough,
that was really hard to deal 

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00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:33,880
with. 
And I was able to like kind of 

224
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,840
catch myself beforehand and 
being like, I'm not as like 

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00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,600
whatever that part of my brain 
used to be, it's not there in 

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00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,480
the same way. 
And I could kind of tell because

227
00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,760
I was like trying to convince 
myself that I was going to be 

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00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,880
good enough to get 7th. 
You know, I was like, I can go 

229
00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,120
and I can get seventh again. 
Like I can be top 10 again. 

230
00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:58,440
And before that, like whether or
not it was realistic or not, 

231
00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:02,960
part of me truly believed that. 
Like if I was really fit and I 

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00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,080
got a little bit lucky and I 
caught a really good day that I 

233
00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,960
could win a Boston or New York 
when there wasn't, when I wasn't

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00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,160
like trying to grow as an 
athlete anymore, it was very 

235
00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:13,960
easy to stop. 
Do you think that that's 

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00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,200
something that a lot of per 
runners lack just cuz it's sort 

237
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,360
of like in sort of the 
detachment when it comes to 

238
00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,480
trying to make the decision? 
Cuz it's like it seems like 

239
00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,400
you're very much at peace with 
like how it all transpired after

240
00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,960
just kind of assessing the 
comeback attempt. 

241
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:29,280
Yeah. 
And there wasn't really a 

242
00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:34,360
comeback attempt. 
I, I just kind of cold Turkey 

243
00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,720
stopped running and I didn't 
really run for a year. 

244
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,000
How did that feel? 
It was nice. 

245
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,240
I mean, it was honestly fine. 
Like I think I'm realizing that 

246
00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,920
like I never, at least towards 
the end, like I didn't love 

247
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:45,760
running. 
I loved being a pro runner and I

248
00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,760
loved competing and I loved like
feeling like every day was 

249
00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:50,800
important. 
And I like feeling special and I

250
00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,760
like feeling like I was creating
something like really, really 

251
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:58,960
cool and I was kind of going to 
have a stage to go do something 

252
00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:00,680
awesome. 
That's what I loved. 

253
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,720
And it's pretty clear that I 
wasn't like the actual process 

254
00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,920
of getting out and running that 
I was, like, addicted to because

255
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,000
I don't do that really anymore. 
One thing that was helpful 

256
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:17,200
before I retired was like, you 
know, like a really popular 

257
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,560
thing for professional runners 
to say is that they're not 

258
00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,160
defined by running. 
But you don't really know 

259
00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:24,720
whether or not, like, you're 
defined by running until it goes

260
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,480
away. 
And then you're either OK or 

261
00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,840
you're not. 
And in that whole, like, spring,

262
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,400
when I was dealing with the 
gagging and it was getting so 

263
00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:36,160
bad that I like, couldn't even 
really run, I was like, OK, 

264
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:37,760
like, I was bummed that I 
couldn't run. 

265
00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,120
And I was like, frustrated that 
I that this was, like, 

266
00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,480
happening. 
But I wasn't depressed. 

267
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,720
And I wasn't like, like, oh, 
like, woe is me. 

268
00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:49,320
Like, this is the worst thing in
the world. 

269
00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,680
I was just like, I would do my 
best to go for a run. 

270
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,400
I would do all my exercises. 
I would try. 

271
00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,560
If it didn't work out, I would 
go home and I would like lift 

272
00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,960
and like I would still do my 
rehab and it would be a bummer, 

273
00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,440
but like I wasn't like a Dick to
the people around me. 

274
00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,240
Like I wasn't like moping around
the house. 

275
00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,400
Like I wasn't, you know, doing 
like these self-destructive 

276
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,400
things that I think I would be 
doing if it truly was like part 

277
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,320
of my identity. 
So it was nice to like already 

278
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,760
have that validation before I 
hung them up. 

279
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,680
I knew that like once I was done
being a pro runner, it was going

280
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:24,760
to be OK. 
Alright. 

281
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:29,440
So then in that stage after 
starting to navigate like the 

282
00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,800
next steps, I guess, like we've 
traded messages in the past and 

283
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,520
I kind of also was looking out 
for, you know, some potential 

284
00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:37,760
opportunities while you were 
starting to think of like what 

285
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:41,200
would come next after running. 
I guess that's, that's another 

286
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,000
interesting part cause like 
we're, we're catching you at a 

287
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,920
point where now just sort of you
have made it through that sort 

288
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:48,640
of next phase. 
You've got another job. 

289
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:50,160
We'll talk about that a little 
bit later. 

290
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,200
But how did the transition go 
then from there? 

291
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,320
It's like, all right, you're 
leaving pro running behind and 

292
00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,080
nothing else has been on your 
resume. 

293
00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:02,880
I guess author of a book, some 
podcasting. 

294
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,920
But then that's also just like 
the next point where sometimes 

295
00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:08,640
people do feel a little bit 
lost. 

296
00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,360
And So what were your feelings 
in that transition point? 

297
00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:13,840
Yeah. 
And it was like, certainly 

298
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:18,240
frustrating to like, you know, I
started applying for jobs, I 

299
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,600
started networking and nothing 
came through for a while, which 

300
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,240
I think ultimately was like kind
of a blessing because in 

301
00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,640
January, we, like my wife and I 
had our first kid. 

302
00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:29,840
I mean, she had the kid. 
I didn't have it, but I was 

303
00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:34,400
there. 
So we, and then I got to like 

304
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,560
just be a dad, you know, and I 
still was under contract with 

305
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:39,280
Nike. 
Like credit to them, they never 

306
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:45,080
reduced me and I had made enough
in my pro career where like I 

307
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,320
still had some runway in the 
bank and I was always like, I 

308
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,360
was always coaching online. 
So that also gave me a little 

309
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,720
bit of cushion. 
So I was lucky that I didn't 

310
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:58,600
have to like jump at the first 
opportunity that came my way and

311
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,200
I could kind of try, really try 
to find something that I really 

312
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,680
liked and really resonated with 
me. 

313
00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:08,880
But yeah, I think it's like 
frustrating for a lot of really 

314
00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,720
competitive people to get to 
like the top of their field and 

315
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:17,440
then be like applying for entry 
level jobs and not get them, 

316
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:22,040
which is like totally fair on 
their, those, you know, 

317
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:26,079
companies parts. 
But I obviously like, I'm a 

318
00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:28,760
confident guy and feel like I 
was the best candidate for every

319
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,320
job I apply for, especially like
entry level cuz I'm cuz I'm me, 

320
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,080
you know, I, I feel I'm 
confident. 

321
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:39,640
But it, it all ended up working 
and it was like nice to not have

322
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,680
that on my plate when Theo came.
Yeah, What's been the best part 

323
00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,360
of Dad life? 
It's been great, man. 

324
00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:50,120
Like it's just been, he's like, 
I know this is such a silly 

325
00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:52,160
thing to say about like a 10 
month old, but like, he's like a

326
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,720
really cool, like kid. 
Like he loves like kind of 

327
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,360
roughhousing and he likes being 
tossed around and he likes sort 

328
00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:03,400
of like baby wrestling and it's 
just fun to play with him, you 

329
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,720
know? 
And so yeah, no, it's just the 

330
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,000
best. 
Like it's exhausting. 

331
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,760
And some days it's like really 
hard, but it's the best. 

332
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,040
I guess that also did also 
solidify the all right, we're 

333
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,680
not going back to, you know, big
training block in in Boulder 

334
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,120
because you did, I guess share 
that, you know, and when I guess

335
00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:24,480
it was let's run was asking. 
It's like, what's your status 

336
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,200
like for you? 
You one of the things I think 

337
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,560
you said before was that being 
away from your wife for that 

338
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:31,840
long of a stretch was was also 
tough. 

339
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,520
And now with a kid, it probably 
was just like, all right, well, 

340
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:35,600
I'm not going to be able to do 
that. 

341
00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,960
Yeah, yeah. 
And I think after the like, 

342
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,600
throat thing popped up before 
the trials, we were already 

343
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,240
thinking like, well, we got to 
try something different, you 

344
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,040
know? 
And I think both Haley and I 

345
00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,760
were getting tired of spending 
half the year apart. 

346
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,040
And so we I was already going to
like, train for the New York 

347
00:18:55,040 --> 00:19:01,120
City Marathon in Portland. 
And so it was like kind of a 

348
00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:05,360
sign that I was moving away from
that chapter and like, into a 

349
00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:07,200
different one. 
And that was fine. 

350
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,560
Like it. 
It wasn't like like a hard 

351
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:13,000
decision and I don't really miss
it. 

352
00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:16,000
All right, so there was the the 
the final race technically for 

353
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,240
you, I guess is that race in in 
San Diego. 

354
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,880
But before that, let's go to 
Orlando really quick because I 

355
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,760
guess people are still wondering
what happened when, when, when 

356
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,360
it's so devastating. 
We don't stop you for a Mixone 

357
00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:31,120
interview. 
You don't even come through the 

358
00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:34,080
Mixone at that point. 
So what happened in Orlando? 

359
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:35,960
Yeah. 
I would have like done an 

360
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,080
interview, but I dropped out of 
10 miles and no one else. 

361
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:39,720
No, like there are no media 
members in the mix, though. 

362
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:40,920
And you guys were all watching 
the race. 

363
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,600
And I guess the reason I didn't 
like say anything about it was 

364
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:49,920
because like, I truly didn't 
like know what was going on. 

365
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,000
Like I could tell that I was 
like starting a deal with like 

366
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:58,200
something that was bordering on 
like kind of being like a like a

367
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,040
true like mental health thing, 
which I don't mind like talking 

368
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,920
about, but I didn't want to talk
about without answers. 

369
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:08,760
And I wanted to figure it out 
before I discussed it because it

370
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:13,880
was like this weird thing that 
was like wrapped up in pressure.

371
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,040
And it was like this thing that 
I hadn't felt ever before. 

372
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:21,480
Like in my whatever, like my 
soul, kind of like this 

373
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,840
anxiousness and nervousness. 
And like almost like at the 

374
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,120
start of that race, like I 
almost just wanted to Fast 

375
00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:33,680
forward to the end. 
And I didn't even care how I 

376
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,400
did, even though like the day 
before, like I was in a really, 

377
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,880
really good spot mentally. 
And then I throw up and it's 

378
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,080
like, is this some sort of 
coping method? 

379
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,920
And I like truly didn't know 
what to say. 

380
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:50,680
And so I was just like, I don't 
really feel the need or like 

381
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,520
think it's a good thing for me 
to like speculate about what's 

382
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,160
going on. 
And then also not really people 

383
00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,440
didn't really ask, which is 
fine. 

384
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:03,240
Like they were focused on the 
guys who ran really well, which 

385
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,520
is totally, totally makes sense 
to me. 

386
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,280
So yeah. 
So I just didn't go out of my 

387
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,200
way to share it when I didn't 
have the answers and I wasn't 

388
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:17,400
like sure of what was happening.
This episode of the Cities Back 

389
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,720
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390
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00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:29,000
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418
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,720
All right, so let's do some 
looking back on your career. 

419
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,680
The cool part is that we have 
tons of episodes immediately 

420
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,320
after so many of these really 
good performances that we can 

421
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,600
always just go back and replay 
some of those. 

422
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,080
So you, you, you talked about a 
little bit of your confidence 

423
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,160
and just like how you even 
brought that to future job 

424
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,080
interviews along the way. 
What do you think is the race 

425
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,000
that helped solidify that for 
you? 

426
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,720
That's sort of like you, I mean,
'cause when we see your 

427
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,840
performances in Boston, when you
finished 7th, like I mean, that 

428
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,560
was a confident Scott Fauble on 
that starting line. 

429
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,120
But what was the first race you 
think that did that for you that

430
00:23:56,360 --> 00:23:58,920
you know, obviously helped 
later, later on in those other 

431
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,840
good races? 
Yeah, I mean, I think it was, 

432
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,240
you know, being being really 
good in high school helped like 

433
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,480
I think when you're kind of like
a a sort of like a shyer 

434
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,840
introverted kid in a lot of 
ways. 

435
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,080
But like running was the thing I
was really good at. 

436
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,160
And then my senior year I like 
didn't lose a race in Colorado 

437
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:24,280
and I made Footlocker and it was
like clear that like, no, this 

438
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,200
is like my thing and I'm good at
it and I'm and I don't need to 

439
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,960
be worried about it. 
Like some part, something about 

440
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,520
me is good enough where I'm 
always going to be able to find 

441
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,120
success in it. 
So I think probably it started 

442
00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:41,600
then, but I think like the thing
that happens, I guess is you're 

443
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,080
confident before there's like 
evidence for your confidence. 

444
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,800
And I think they're like step 
forward on the professional 

445
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:52,760
stage was probably like great 
Edinboro 2016 where I made the 

446
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:57,720
cross country team going to 
Scotland and I took third place 

447
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,680
and 1200 meters out. 
I like made a move on Mo Farah 

448
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:05,240
and Gary Heath and like broke 
open this pack of six or seven. 

449
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,720
And putting myself in that spot 
and making the most of it and 

450
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,480
trying to like, take control of 
the race was probably the thing 

451
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,040
that, like, validated the 
confidence that I already had. 

452
00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:18,000
Is that the most fun race for 
you? 

453
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:20,720
It's up there, It's up there. 
Yeah, all right. 

454
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,520
What are some? 
Other Boston 20 Well, Boston 

455
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:28,760
20/19 was incredible because 
Boston 2019 like felt so good. 

456
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:33,920
It just like didn't hurt for the
1st 22 miles, you know, and I 

457
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,920
was so like in control of my 
life, like what I was doing and 

458
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,120
the training for it had gone so 
well. 

459
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,320
So that was a fun one, 
especially since I was like 

460
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,640
leading 2016 Boulder. 
Boulder was really fun and like 

461
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,000
it's a in a weird way where it 
like hurt a ton from the very, 

462
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,160
very start. 
But that's a race I grew up 

463
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,240
running. 
I ran really well. 

464
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,280
I was able to like push through 
a lot of discomfort and I closed

465
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,680
hard. 
And finishing in a stadium of 

466
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:06,600
that many people is fun. 
Boston 2022 was fun at the first

467
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,040
race I ran or left, first 
marathon I ran after leaving an 

468
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,760
AZ where it was like, you know, 
I still knew I was good, but I 

469
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,760
was kind of like I had the chip 
on my shoulder again because I 

470
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,920
had had a couple not as good 
years. 

471
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,600
And I think I'd sort of 
convinced myself that there were

472
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,600
people who were writing me off 
and I was able to. 

473
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,480
I don't know if that was 
actually the case, but I think 

474
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,040
that's something that you kind 
of just do in order to get that 

475
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,240
attitude and get that chip on 
your shoulder and feel like an 

476
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:38,320
underdog. 
And so yeah, yeah, it was that 

477
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:39,960
was the move. 
That was That was another really

478
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,160
fun one. 
Any track ones? 

479
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,920
I didn't run a ton of track, but
2016 Stanford when I ran 28 flat

480
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:51,240
was pretty fun cuz again, it was
like kind of like that Boston 

481
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,000
race where I just like 
everything clicked and nothing 

482
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,960
like everything felt really easy
until the last 300 meters or so.

483
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,720
And then and I took a couple 
shots to try to win that race 

484
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,920
and I came close. 
But I yeah, not a ton of track, 

485
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,600
no. 
Yeah, cuz then I was gonna bring

486
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,920
up, I guess the one I remember 
was obviously 16 trials, but 

487
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:12,680
then there's nothing fun about 
finishing four. 

488
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,880
Yeah, yeah. 
And it was like, like, I'm proud

489
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,320
of that race because it was like
really hard for the whole time, 

490
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,840
but it was like 80° or 
something. 

491
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,080
And they was like really windy. 
And it was total carnage. 

492
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:28,760
And I would, yeah. 
I think that's the one that Eric

493
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,880
has talked about before, just 
being just like they're just 

494
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,160
bodies on the ground everywhere.
Yeah, Hassan Meade was just like

495
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,200
sitting on the track and like, I
didn't know. 

496
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,280
Like nobody knew what place they
were in because people were just

497
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,640
dropping out right and left. 
And so I like didn't know I was 

498
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,800
4th until like two laps to go. 
All right, so I'm glad you also 

499
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:53,040
brought up 2019 Boston because 
the lead up to that one was just

500
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,120
if you remember, and I'm sure 
there's there's podcast episode,

501
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,080
there's all the chatter about 
American men are not breaking 

502
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,840
210. 
And then you and Jared Ward just

503
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,080
take that whole thing down. 
You're in two O 9 O 9 and it 

504
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,160
kind of unlocked. 
It was the Rodger banister 

505
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,840
effect for American marathoning.
And then now as we look at the 

506
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:19,840
all time list, you're two O 850,
is it two O 852, Right. 

507
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,520
Your PR, yeah. 
Like, I mean, that was much 

508
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,800
higher up if we would have done 
this exit interview about a year

509
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,120
ago. 
But now you're down to about, I 

510
00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:32,120
think 13th or 14th on the US all
time list. 

511
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,280
And a bunch of names have just 
popped up in there in the last 

512
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,280
two years. 
So there was that barrier from 

513
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:44,880
of trying to break 210 and now 
it feels like that's 208 more 

514
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,760
guys are starting to do it. 
Was it just shoes and better 

515
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,400
training that people like 
adapted to in 20/20/19? 

516
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,600
What did you guys unlock that is
now also happening? 

517
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:53,520
Is this essentially the 
question? 

518
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,040
Yeah. 
Well, I think the biggest thing 

519
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,960
is shoes. 
I mean those are they're worth a

520
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,840
ton. 
I think that Connor and to a 

521
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:07,680
lesser like to a similar extent 
Clayton, because Clayton, like 

522
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,640
Connor races so, so fearlessly 
that I think American men in 

523
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,840
general over the last like my 
whole career have kind of keyed 

524
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,360
off of each other. 
And so obviously like that 

525
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,680
wasn't Galen was so far ahead at
certain points that it was tough

526
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,560
to do that. 
But like we all kind of competed

527
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,280
to be the top American. 
So the improvements were like 

528
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:35,640
incremental and I think to 
Connor's benefit or Connor's one

529
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,440
thing in Connor's favor, like 
one thing he does really well is

530
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,600
like he wasn't, he was able to 
kind of elevate his expectations

531
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,480
of himself, I think above just 
being the top American. 

532
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:50,240
And I think you saw him like 
race way more aggressively and 

533
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:55,320
you know, cuz he erases a lot 
more like a like your typical 

534
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,440
like Japanese marathoner than 
the way I ever raced where I was

535
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,680
like very good at measuring my 
effort. 

536
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,600
I was like, always wanted to 
finish full of run. 

537
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,320
I wanted my, like, last miles to
still be aggressive. 

538
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,040
And I think Connor's able to 
race, you know, earlier in his 

539
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,120
career before he, like, put it 
all together, you can make the 

540
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,320
case that what he was doing was 
like, not racing very smart. 

541
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,160
But now that he's put it 
together, it's clear that he was

542
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,760
like, racing much more 
fearlessly. 

543
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,680
And I think that has like, 
pulled people along saying like,

544
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,680
actually, like the standards is 
up there, which I don't know 

545
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,200
that I was like, in my head, I 
think I wanted to be the best in

546
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,560
the whole field, but I don't 
know that I had like, that level

547
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,840
of delusion. 
And so I was like, OK with like,

548
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:38,560
all right, if I'm the top 
American, that's going to be 

549
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,000
pretty good. 
Did you feel like you started to

550
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,040
take some swings though, like 
Berlin 2023? 

551
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,200
Like that was one where you did 
start to go out and what was it,

552
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,280
6263 or something like that? 
Yeah, it was like 6320 

553
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:54,520
something. 
Yeah. 

554
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,960
And so like you were getting 
ready essentially to take that 

555
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,680
next step at that point. 
And had it not been for these 

556
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:05,120
early signs of like the, the, 
the fuelling issues that could 

557
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,200
have been there. 
Yeah, I think physically it was 

558
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,680
possible to get there. 
Physically I there's no reason 

559
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,880
like I felt so good at Berlin 
even through 30K where I when I 

560
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,200
threw up, it was like, I think 
it was pretty clear I was going 

561
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:17,640
to run in the two O sevens on 
that day. 

562
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,600
So I think I was like getting 
there to the point where I'd 

563
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,480
like kind of re redefine what 
like good was. 

564
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,800
But I think we were we as like 
an American conglomerate, we're 

565
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,120
like maybe a little bit slower 
than we should have been to 

566
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:37,240
define what like success was in 
terms of like time. 

567
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,200
Because I, I still feel like 
like being 7th at Boston is 

568
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:43,760
always going to be good, you 
know? 

569
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:48,200
And so in that way, I was 
competitive at the like highest 

570
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,480
level, but I think I don't think
I ever like got my head around 

571
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,240
the times that I would have had 
to be seeing in order to, you 

572
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,560
know, run the 2O fives that you 
see Connor doing. 

573
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,320
And I don't know that two O 5 
was ever in the cards. 

574
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,880
I think at the best, I could 
have been run 3 minute KS. 

575
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,960
But now Connor's past that and 
Clayton is I think going to be 

576
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:07,800
past that soon. 
And. 

577
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,920
When you used to think of 
winning a major and stuff like 

578
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:17,080
that, how did you kind of 
because you were in an era? 

579
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,920
And if we look at some of the 
results of there's one 

580
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:21,480
particular boss that I think 
where was it? 

581
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,360
Lawrence Chirono, I think was 
the one who finished ahead of 

582
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,520
you. 
Like, yeah, like you finished 

583
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,480
behind dopers on several 
occasions. 

584
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:33,680
Like how did you suspend that 
realistic component of the 

585
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,600
there? 
There are these guys who are 

586
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,840
taking shortcuts to that will 
stop you from achieving that. 

587
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,480
That one dream that you have. 
How did you kind of keep that at

588
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,280
Bay? 
Well, I've always believed and I

589
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:49,240
still believe that like clean 
athletes can compete with like 

590
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:54,360
doped athletes on given days. 
Like on one, if you are trained 

591
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,120
really well and you get a little
bit lucky and you get the 

592
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,400
perfect day, like on single 
days, I do think that you can 

593
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,440
compete with dirty athletes. 
Like their window is way bigger.

594
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,600
Like they don't need the perfect
timing. 

595
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:08,840
They don't need the perfect 
build up. 

596
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,240
They don't need all of these 
things to go right because 

597
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,720
they've taken that shortcut. 
But you look at like, you know, 

598
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,280
the World Championships, 
especially in track over the 

599
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:24,000
last 10 years or so, like Jordy 
Beamish has won a world 

600
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:25,200
championship. 
Believe in him. 

601
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,200
Like Emma Coburn, no, she's 
doing everything right. 

602
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,440
She won a world championship. 
Like I know MEB never took that 

603
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,000
stuff. 
Like he won a Boston, he won a 

604
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,680
New York. 
So like it is possible for those

605
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:37,920
like special, special days to 
happen. 

606
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,600
It just decreases your like it's
just less likely. 

607
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,120
And I think like as much as I 
wanted to win the like the 

608
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,920
races, like what I really was 
after, what really drove me was 

609
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,520
like finding out how good I 
could be. 

610
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,640
And it turns out I did like I 
found out how good I could be. 

611
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,680
I had like a four or five year 
stretch there where 7th place in

612
00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:01,840
Boston was as good as I could be
and two O 9 flat or 209-0920 

613
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,320
eight 52 like right in that 
range is as as fast as I could 

614
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,400
run. 
So like I found out and it 

615
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,239
wasn't good enough to win a 
major, but it was fun. 

616
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,320
It was a lot of fun to find out.
All right. 

617
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:19,400
So along the way, you've had 
several really good coaching 

618
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:25,719
influences in your career from 
high school, RC Ben Rosario, Ben

619
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,679
Rosario, and then after that, 
you know, Joe Bossard. 

620
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,800
What were what were the biggest 
lessons you took from each of 

621
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,480
those coaches? 
Yeah. 

622
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,679
And my first coach was my dad. 
He ran at University of Utah. 

623
00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:41,040
And like when I first got into 
running, he was kind of like 

624
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,440
sort of coaching me in the sense
that we would like go for runs 

625
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,520
together. 
And I think he was like probably

626
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,520
the biggest like influence in 
terms of like my early days 

627
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,880
because the way he like, taught 
me to race was like really, 

628
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,920
really reckless. 
And I think when you can teach a

629
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,120
like a 10 year old to like 
really put themselves out there 

630
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,880
with like a long way to go, 
that's going to be helpful. 

631
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:06,840
And especially when it was 
reinforced by like, winning 

632
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:11,480
races that kind of like informed
how I was going to race going 

633
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,040
forward. 
Because the way he taught me to 

634
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:17,360
run a mile is like, you run your
third lap like it's your last as

635
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,280
hard as you can. 
And then you just hold on. 

636
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,280
And the way you run an 800 is 
you just run as hard as you can 

637
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,240
for as long as you can, and then
you just hold on. 

638
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,960
And same with a 400, you just 
Sprint for as long as you can. 

639
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,040
And so like, that mentality is 
like a really good thing for a 

640
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,760
young athlete to have of like, 
I'm going to actually hammer 

641
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,000
this third lap as fast as I 
possibly can. 

642
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,880
And I'm just going to have to 
like, figure it out for the last

643
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,160
85 or 90 seconds. 
So that's probably the like best

644
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:47,360
first lesson and then high 
school at Wheat Ridge, Scott 

645
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,920
Chamberlain. 
Quick pin on your dad, what's 

646
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,000
that like? 
I guess just to kind of bounce 

647
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,880
around a little bit. 
You're first coach and then it's

648
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:02,920
like now he's grandpa like when 
when you've had this career and 

649
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,600
I'm sure he's he's been, you 
know, super proud of, of seeing 

650
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,280
you finish as high as you have 
at these majors and and seeing 

651
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,240
you go all the way through the 
pro ranks. 

652
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:15,680
But I guess like telling him was
like, hey, I'm I'm I'm done. 

653
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,920
Is that I'm not not to try and 
pull out emotional heartstrings 

654
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:20,280
here. 
But was that, was that a sort of

655
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,280
like a easy or do you remember 
having that conversation? 

656
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,160
It was like, hey, hey, dad, I 
think like it's over. 

657
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,480
Like I'm just going to be 
running for fun now. 

658
00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:31,800
Yeah, I mean, I, I do remember 
that conversation called my 

659
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,960
parents and I just told them 
that I'm, you know, retired. 

660
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,360
I don't think it was like a 
total shock because they were 

661
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:43,360
like in on the, they were at the
trials in 2024 and I like told 

662
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,160
them what was going on and I 
told them kind of what I was 

663
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,320
dealing with. 
And so I don't think it was a 

664
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,400
total shock. 
I do think he was bummed. 

665
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,040
I mean, they were both bummed my
parents, but I think they were 

666
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:59,080
just like bummed because they 
saw how much like joy it brought

667
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:00,720
me and it brought them a lot of 
joy. 

668
00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:04,400
It's fun to watch your kid race,
you know, and especially when I 

669
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,360
was racing so well, like that's 
fun to get to go to the Boston 

670
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:12,160
Marathon and get your VIP passes
and all that stuff is great. 

671
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,200
So I think they were just kind 
of sad that it was over, but I 

672
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,560
don't think they were like 
disappointed in me or any way. 

673
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,160
Sort of like, yeah, all right, 
high school coach. 

674
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,640
I think that's where I kind of 
like we had a really good high 

675
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,480
school team. 
And so that was like the first 

676
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:34,520
time that like the bar was set 
to a the standard was like kind 

677
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,200
of where I couldn't quite reach 
it, which is like a great place 

678
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,600
to like grow. 
You know, where I got into high 

679
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,240
school, I was immediately really
good. 

680
00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:45,240
I was like, you know, 17th and 
state my freshman year. 

681
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,560
But it was like clear right 
after that, it's like, oh, no, 

682
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,920
you like you have to like you 
should be trying to win a state 

683
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:52,480
title. 
Like you should be trying to be 

684
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,680
the best in your team. 
And most of the time the first 

685
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,200
three years I wasn't the top 
runner on the team. 

686
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,240
So I like having that person to 
chase was really good. 

687
00:38:01,240 --> 00:38:04,080
And he had a good job of, like, 
my coach in high school did a 

688
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:08,760
good job of like setting the bar
just to where I, like, couldn't 

689
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,640
quite get it, but it was 
realistic. 

690
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:17,680
And then, yeah, just supporting 
me in in the same way that the 

691
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,720
way I liked to race, where it 
was like, no, I like to make a 

692
00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:23,720
really big move, like a long way
out. 

693
00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:26,360
And that's kind of like, you 
know, sometimes it didn't work, 

694
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:31,360
particularly my first few years,
but he was like supportive of 

695
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:32,640
that and didn't try to change 
it. 

696
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:34,680
All right, then we go Rob 
Connor. 

697
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,720
Yeah, I mean, similarly like 
like Rob was really big on 

698
00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:43,800
development where like he took 
and he was, he was good on like 

699
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,880
letting me figure it out a 
little bit like letting 

700
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,360
everybody figure it out. 
He's not a hands on coach. 

701
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:57,840
And so like I was like a pretty 
dumb 18 year old and he 

702
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,920
certainly like shared his 
opinions, but on things I could 

703
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,800
be doing differently, like 
primarily like not staying out 

704
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:10,760
so late and like partying as 
much and like drinking three 

705
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,680
nights a week. 
Like he was, he was big on like 

706
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,720
natural consequences. 
So it was pretty clear that like

707
00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:18,960
I was doing this didn't work 
out. 

708
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,840
I ran shitty. 
OK, not doing it is going to 

709
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:23,880
help me run better. 
And he didn't. 

710
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,200
He let me find that out for 
myself instead of like trying to

711
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,000
impose a lesson on me that I 
maybe wasn't ready to learn. 

712
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:31,600
All right, then we go Ben 
Rosario. 

713
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,000
Yeah, I mean, Ben, like it's 
just really competitive and 

714
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,960
really professional. 
Like everything he did at NAC 

715
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,160
Elite, everything we did at NAC 
Elite, we just like trying to be

716
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,040
as professional as possible. 
And that's, I think particularly

717
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:50,120
at that time and for a lot of 
groups like us, the kind of 

718
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,360
attitude was like, Oh no, we're 
doing this so that we don't have

719
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,320
to get like a real job or 
whatever, you know, like we're 

720
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,520
doing this to suspend some sort 
of like Arrested Development. 

721
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,640
And that was not Ben's. 
Like mentality at all, Like 

722
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,440
we're taking social media 
seriously, we're taking 

723
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,680
weightlifting seriously, we're 
taking sponsor acquisition 

724
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,880
seriously. 
We have these like mandates 

725
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,000
we're meeting as a team. 
We're going to be a professional

726
00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:20,360
like entity. 
And that's probably what I 

727
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,400
needed right then. 
Cuz it's like I wanted to be a 

728
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,800
good employee and I wanted to be
a good member of the team. 

729
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,840
And, like, being a professional 
member of the team is was kind 

730
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,040
of the standard. 
And yeah, and it was nice to 

731
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,120
have, like, older people on the 
team who, like, embodied that, 

732
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,960
like Matt Yano and Kellen Taylor
and the Bruces, you know? 

733
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,720
The City of Smack podcast is 
presented by Gnomeo Performance 

734
00:40:43,720 --> 00:40:46,960
from the inside out. 
You probably saw it, Joe 

735
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:51,720
Clecker's marathon debut in New 
York City, 210A debut that 

736
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:54,840
looked composed and strong all 
the way throughout. 

737
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,280
While he's spoken out about the 
importance of fueling a lot on 

738
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:02,720
this show, Joe has also been 
using Gnomeo in his build up. 

739
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,320
Gnomeo's built exactly for that 
feeling that we're chasing when 

740
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,560
the training clicks, recovery 
feels smoother, and race day 

741
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,120
legs actually show up. 
It's a daily 60 milliliter shot,

742
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,440
mostly broccoli sprout juice, 
lemon and a such as sugar. 

743
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,560
But the magic is in the science.
Nearly a decade of research from

744
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,360
Sweden's Karolinska Institute 
went into stabilizing compounds 

745
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,400
from cruciferous vegetables, the
stuff that helps your body 

746
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,840
naturally handle the stress of 
heart training. 

747
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,400
We're talking lower lactate, 
better recovery, and stronger 

748
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,120
muscle adaptation. 
Athletes like Cole Hawker, 

749
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,440
Andreas Almgren, Clayton Young, 
Nico Young are all using Gnomeo 

750
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,200
to push a little harder, bounce 
back faster, and feel that light

751
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,480
on your feet rhythm that we're 
all chasing. 

752
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,480
Let's hear how Joe Clecker has 
been used using Omeo. 

753
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,800
So first I was a bit of a 
skeptic of the the product, you 

754
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,320
know, I was like, what is this? 
But I got it and started using 

755
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,840
it and then I'll use it like 2 
hours before I'll get up and 

756
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:58,360
have it because our workouts are
pretty early. 

757
00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:01,920
Every workout I'd implement what
I'm going to do on race day into

758
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:03,640
the workout. 
So my routine every morning is 

759
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:08,640
same breakfast, no meo 3 hours 
before I do buy card two to 

760
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,960
three hours before and then I'll
have no meo before bed and for 

761
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,280
recovery. 
But I wasn't a huge believer and

762
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,560
I just did it because they had 
sent it to me at first. 

763
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:22,000
And then Sage started using it 
and she used it at USA's for the

764
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:26,800
first time between her rounds 
and she was like blown away by 

765
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,280
how fresh she felt through the 
rounds. 

766
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,320
And obviously, that could just 
be fitness and training, but she

767
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,720
was like, you know, this was a 
new thing she was trying and it 

768
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:36,600
really helped her. 
And then she did the same in 

769
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,040
Tokyo. 
And like, so now we have that 

770
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:40,360
helped me really believe in it a
lot. 

771
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,440
I'm like, OK, I know she's the 
fittest she's ever been. 

772
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,680
But also she starts using this, 
you know, this new product and 

773
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,760
has the best race of her life. 
You know, maybe I should keep 

774
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,760
using it as well. 
So yeah, I've been using it 

775
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,560
every workout, every long run. 
The recommended practice is you 

776
00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:00,560
take one shot 3 hours before a 
big workout, a race, or daily 

777
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,960
during heavy training blocks and
those especially tough days. 

778
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,480
A second shot before bed can 
help your recovery overnight. 

779
00:43:07,720 --> 00:43:12,000
It's nature meets science, a 
small routine with a big payoff.

780
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,480
You can find Gnomeo on the feed 
and Sidious Mag listeners get 

781
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,640
15% off using code Sidious 15 at
check out. 

782
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:28,600
That's Citi US15 at thefeed.com.
Gnomeo, prepare to outperform. 

783
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,440
This episode of the City of 
Smack podcast is presented by 

784
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,120
the Wahoo Kicker Run. 
So at this point in human 

785
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,360
history, we all know what a 
treadmill is. 

786
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,800
You either love it or you call 
it the dreadmill. 

787
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,120
But what if I told you the 
treadmill finally got 

788
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:52,040
interesting and fun? 
Yeah, Meet the Wahoo Kicker Run.

789
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,600
It looks like your normal 
treadmill, but the first time 

790
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:59,080
you step on it, you realize it's
not the kicker Run literally 

791
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,000
responds to you. 
Run faster, it speeds up. 

792
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:06,040
Ease back, it slows down. 
That's called the run Free mode.

793
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:07,840
And it's exactly what it sounds 
like. 

794
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,920
No buttons to worry about, Just 
running. 

795
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,440
That actually feels like 
running. 

796
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,480
You can hook it up to Zwift, and
it gets even better. 

797
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,360
The kicker? 
Run automatically adjusts for 

798
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,920
climbs and descents, so when 
your avatar is hitting a hill in

799
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,480
the virtual world, the deck 
tilts up. 

800
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,600
In real life, you're suddenly 
feeling that terrain, not just 

801
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,320
seeing it. 
Add in a quiet motor, a buttery 

802
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,200
smooth belt, and speeds up to 15
mph. 

803
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,280
It's basically the closest thing
you can get to an outdoor run 

804
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,240
without leaving your house. 
We all know those temperatures 

805
00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:44,000
are starting to drop, so you 
might want to get on top of Lock

806
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:49,480
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It's premium, it's techie, it's 

807
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:51,640
kind of nerdy, and it's a lot of
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808
00:44:51,720 --> 00:44:54,440
The Wahoo Kicker Run makes 
indoor training something you 

809
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,600
actually look forward to. 
Cole Hawker, the 5000 meter 

810
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:01,320
world champion and 1500m Olympic
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811
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:07,520
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812
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,400
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813
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815
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818
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819
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820
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821
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,720
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822
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that special offer. 
I mean, throughout your career, 

823
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,480
this may have been this may have
started in in Portland because 

824
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:52,600
it's sort of like you got 
Portland, OR and then you have 

825
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,640
Oregon in state and then you've 
at NAZ. 

826
00:45:55,720 --> 00:46:00,480
It's sort of like the 2020 
trials were like the coming out 

827
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,600
party of just sort of like 
stamping NAZ as like this force 

828
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:09,720
in US road running And like kind
of the proof of all of that hard

829
00:46:09,720 --> 00:46:12,240
work over the years to build the
brand, build the group, you 

830
00:46:12,240 --> 00:46:16,680
know, and empower like the the, 
the athletes that I guess, like 

831
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,280
you raced so well throughout 
your career with a chip on your 

832
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:24,120
shoulder of just sort of like, 
like not necessarily being part 

833
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:28,880
of the big flashy teams and, and
having it all handed to you on a

834
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,280
silver platter. 
Coming out as a as a as a pro, 

835
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,320
turning pro and not necessarily 
signing the big flashy contract.

836
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,840
Yeah, I mean, I wasn't making 
any money when I signed. 

837
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:43,040
Like I was literally on $0.00 a 
year for the first six months 

838
00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:46,920
before I kind of ran fast enough
to get to hit some bonuses and 

839
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,040
be elevated. 
Yeah, I always ran better as an 

840
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:50,720
underdog. 
I always ran better as an 

841
00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:51,520
underdog. 
I think. 

842
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,560
I think it was always better for
me to be feel like I was like 

843
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:58,240
punching up then like showing up
somewhere and being like 

844
00:46:58,240 --> 00:47:00,400
expected to run well. 
I don't know that I had the same

845
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:05,200
like edge and the same sort of 
like attitude that I had when I 

846
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,680
was the underdog and feeling 
like the underdog and whether or

847
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,320
not all the chips on my shoulder
were entirely justified. 

848
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,760
Probably not. 
They were. 

849
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:15,520
It was better for me to have one
than not. 

850
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,720
All right, let me go after Ben. 
Joe. 

851
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,240
Biggest lessons from Joe? 
Yeah, I think the biggest lesson

852
00:47:22,240 --> 00:47:24,200
to Joe was that you don't need 
to do everything. 

853
00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:25,800
Like, not everything needs to be
fancy. 

854
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:28,560
Like we really went back to 
basics. 

855
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,920
Our training was like very 
simple, a lot of like stuff at 

856
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:33,960
threshold. 
Occasionally we would do some 4 

857
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:40,240
hundreds like hard long runs 
prioritizing recovery where like

858
00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:43,800
at the end of my time at Nazi 
think we were kind of like 

859
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,400
pressing a little bit too much. 
Whereas like we'd done all these

860
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,640
blocks and every block got like 
a little bit harder and a little

861
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:51,720
bit harder and a little bit 
harder. 

862
00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:56,880
And all of a sudden, like my 
workout used to be 8 by mile is 

863
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,000
now 15 by mile over the course 
of five or six marathons because

864
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,040
they went eight and then it went
10 and then it went 12. 

865
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,600
And Joe was like, no, we're not.
We're not like chasing 

866
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:09,160
something. 
We're going to like back off. 

867
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:10,400
We're going to trust your 
talent. 

868
00:48:10,720 --> 00:48:13,360
We're going to get you prepared.
But we're not going to like, 

869
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,920
we're not going to like 
sacrifice or limit your, like 

870
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:18,560
we're not going to you're, 
there's no way you were going to

871
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:22,160
burn out on Joe's training. 
Like it just wasn't as 

872
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,680
aggressive, which is probably 
what I needed in my 30s as 

873
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:31,680
opposed to in my 20s. 
And it was, I think more more 

874
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:33,800
cautious. 
So the basics is what he taught 

875
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:34,880
me. 
Yeah, yeah. 

876
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,160
All right. 
I want to kind of touch on some 

877
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:40,520
other things, all right, with 
bigger open-ended questions. 

878
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:43,160
Toughest guy to beat in your 
career. 

879
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,720
I mean, obviously, I guess it 
feels like Galen, right? 

880
00:48:46,720 --> 00:48:50,360
And a lot of people seem to pit 
the two of you against each 

881
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,160
other, but that I mean, he would
be so far ahead. 

882
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:57,200
I feel like that it was more of 
a race against the likes of 

883
00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:59,400
Jared Ward and and Chris 
Derrick. 

884
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:01,400
You had some good battles 
against those guys. 

885
00:49:01,720 --> 00:49:03,600
Yeah, Jared and I went back and 
forth a lot. 

886
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,280
I would say Lenny was probably 
the toughest guy to beat. 

887
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:12,920
He had that stretch there in the
sort of like 2018 range where he

888
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:14,760
was like really, he was racing a
ton. 

889
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,240
So you always saw him and he was
really good. 

890
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:20,600
So Lenny probably beat me more 
than anybody. 

891
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:26,760
Lenny also has his two O 756 
that he ran well I guess like 

892
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,600
this says. 
It was like Amsterdam. 

893
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:30,560
Right. 
It was Amsterdam. 

894
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,880
But then he also, oh, it's his 
half marathon that he ran in 

895
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,760
like India. 
It was like 5059 something. 

896
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:40,120
And I'm always like with that 
air pollution, that thing is. 

897
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:44,840
AI know. 58, yeah, for sure. 
Honestly, what really. 

898
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,040
The record that Connor should 
have been after? 

899
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,800
Yeah, all right. 
The other thing is since in the 

900
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,960
last couple years, I guess I was
peeking at your LinkedIn before 

901
00:49:54,960 --> 00:50:01,240
this and sure, I, I noticed that
like you would opine on some of 

902
00:50:01,240 --> 00:50:05,360
these, like the the bigger 
picture marketing efforts and, 

903
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:10,000
and the sport getting in its own
way and stuff for you as an 

904
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,160
athlete, like what were your 
biggest frustrations and sort of

905
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:16,760
like how the sport operated? 
Like yes, you see, you mentioned

906
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:20,680
with Naz, you guys were always 
chasing just sort of like being 

907
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:23,440
professional. 
And this is a sport that is like

908
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:25,440
trying to figure that out 
itself. 

909
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:30,320
So, you know, kind of put you 
in, you know, the, the tracker 

910
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:35,640
or marathoning czar role because
we we're both big fans of of the

911
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,880
Bill Simmons podcast. 
But your tracker or marathoning 

912
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:40,760
czar now? 
Like what would be the big 

913
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:42,280
sweeping changes you would want 
to see? 

914
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:44,120
Yeah. 
I mean, I think a czar is kind 

915
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:45,360
of the change I would want to 
see. 

916
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:49,080
I would want to see someone who 
wasn't like who is only bound by

917
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,840
like making the sport like a 
commercial entity. 

918
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,800
And I think the way you do that 
is like is like consolidation 

919
00:50:55,800 --> 00:51:00,280
and scarcity where like we don't
need all these things like we 

920
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:04,680
have too many races and like we 
have too many races at in terms 

921
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:07,360
of like too many meets and we 
have too many events at meets. 

922
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:09,760
So I would cut down on the total
number of events. 

923
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:16,600
Like I would probably like my 
perfect track meet would be like

924
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:25,080
104 hundred 815 hundred 5000. 
Some would say the 5000 would be

925
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:27,840
too long. 
Maybe, yeah, but I think there's

926
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:32,760
some place for like, and then a 
road, a road race, yeah, 

927
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,240
beforehand on the road around 
the stadium and a criterion 

928
00:51:36,240 --> 00:51:38,280
course like. 
I always think that's such a 

929
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:40,600
smart move to just get axes and 
seats, yeah. 

930
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,600
Yeah. 
So cut down on the number of 

931
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:45,840
meets, get them all under the 
same banner. 

932
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:51,400
Have like a have like a premier 
circuit that you have to qualify

933
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:56,440
into and make the like 
incentives for running that so 

934
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,000
good that people aren't skipping
them. 

935
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,200
Like there's no reason that we 
have this great rivalry in the 

936
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:09,120
men's 1500 right now between 
like Jakob, Josh and Jared and 

937
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,680
you know, Cole. 
So like those guys should be 

938
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:17,720
racing like 6 to 7 * a year, but
they don't because there's so 

939
00:52:17,720 --> 00:52:22,000
many disparate entities. 
Like they all run a few diamond 

940
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:26,240
leagues, they all run a couple 
of these smaller races. 

941
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,520
And if you're like a premier 
level athlete, you shouldn't 

942
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,200
really be allowed to run these 
like bottom tier races. 

943
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,080
There should be no incentive for
you to do them. 

944
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:36,600
They shouldn't have like prize 
money, They shouldn't have any 

945
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,360
sort of like season long points 
that you're eligible for. 

946
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:43,320
You should only be eligible for 
the big dog races and those 

947
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:46,240
should be like you should be 
able to like make your nut for 

948
00:52:46,240 --> 00:52:48,880
the whole year in those races. 
You know, there should be a 

949
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:51,760
season long thing we can get rid
of the World Championships. 

950
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,600
That's kind of like another 
disparate thing that I don't 

951
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:58,840
really think is necessary. 
If you look at like other 

952
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:03,040
individual sports that are more 
commercially viable, you know, 

953
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:09,040
F1, for example, or like golf is
struggling with the same thing, 

954
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:13,480
but it's way better than the 
sport or than the track having 

955
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:17,160
this like upper tier echelon of 
events that only the top people 

956
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:22,240
in that event can do. 
And them being like spaced out 

957
00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:25,280
enough and incentivized enough 
where they everybody is doing 

958
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:27,240
every single one. 
So that would be my main thing. 

959
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:30,160
And I think that the way you do 
that is like prying back some 

960
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:34,360
power from the governing bodies 
so that like, there's not this 

961
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:38,800
huge importance on USAS or like 
your national meet in order to 

962
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:40,880
like qualify for the World 
Championships. 

963
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:46,400
It should all just be 1, like 
descending set of leagues where 

964
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:50,240
it's like Premier League. 
It's more like soccer, you know,

965
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,800
European soccer, where if you 
race really well in League 2, 

966
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:55,720
you can move up. 
If you race poorly in League 1, 

967
00:53:55,720 --> 00:53:57,680
you move down and the next year 
you do it again. 

968
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:04,720
And it's like these meets happen
on a set schedule from May until

969
00:54:04,720 --> 00:54:06,520
August. 
And that's track season, you 

970
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:08,920
know, and you can do weird stuff
in the indoor season, You can 

971
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:13,640
have a cross country season. 
But like, come the summer, this 

972
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:17,520
is big dog time and you're 
running the the big dog events. 

973
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:19,800
And those can be Monaco, they 
can go be Eugene. 

974
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:24,120
But I don't want like, I want 
all the good people at the same 

975
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:27,760
meet as many times as possible. 
The importance of big dog events

976
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:33,080
is to to have the money in the 
bank behind it so then it could 

977
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:35,280
actually happen. 
Yeah, and I think in the in the 

978
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:39,240
like perfect world, some like 
benevolent sovereign wealth 

979
00:54:39,240 --> 00:54:41,400
fund, which is by the entire 
sport. 

980
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:45,200
Like I have my moral issues 
against the the public 

981
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:48,680
investment fund of Saudi Arabia.
But I guess if they want to 

982
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:51,120
spend like a couple billion 
dollars and just buy the entire 

983
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:54,280
sport and reshape it in F1's 
image or European soccer's 

984
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:57,880
image, then like, bummer for all
the human rights things, but it 

985
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:01,240
would be better for the sport. 
And the point that you bring up 

986
00:55:01,240 --> 00:55:03,920
is just sort of like, I feel 
like these ventures that have 

987
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:07,120
started in the last couple years
just kowtow to World Athletics. 

988
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:10,000
We gotta make sure we fit within
the World Athletics calendar. 

989
00:55:10,240 --> 00:55:12,960
We gotta make sure our meats are
certified by them so that the 

990
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,320
marks count. 
It should like no, just power 

991
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:19,160
through do your own thing and 
attract the best people because 

992
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:22,920
it the best people should still 
be able to qualify for the World

993
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:28,040
Championships in the Olympics at
the USAS and not at go run Abu 

994
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:32,480
time trial just to secure that 
mark and then go off and compete

995
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:37,920
like in in this hypothetical, 
you know, big dog league that 

996
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:40,440
you've you've created. 
So from the sound of it too, 

997
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:44,120
it's it sounds like, I mean, 
you've exited elite marathoning 

998
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:46,720
at this point where now they're 
adding so many more majors. 

999
00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:48,960
You're just sort of like it's 
over saturated. 

1000
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:50,880
What it means to win a world 
marathon major now. 

1001
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:54,040
Yeah, like if you have 8 majors,
do you really have like 1? 

1002
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:56,640
You know. 
Like what's the point? 

1003
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:00,640
Like I understand the like point
commercially of adding Sydney 

1004
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:03,640
and they're going to add 1 in 
China and I'm sure they'll add 

1005
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:06,120
like South Africa and then 
they'll add like Rio de Janeiro 

1006
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,320
and they'll have them on all the
things. 

1007
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:13,320
And I guess that's fine. 
I I'm less worried about the 

1008
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,880
marathon, but I do think that 
this that's the same issue. 

1009
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:23,320
Like, it doesn't, it doesn't 
behoove anybody to, like, be 

1010
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:26,880
having to pick and choose. 
And these marathons 

1011
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:29,720
particularly, like at the elite 
level, they're end up competing 

1012
00:56:29,720 --> 00:56:31,480
against each other because of 
prize money. 

1013
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:33,760
Yeah. 
You know, like prize money and 

1014
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:36,000
appearance fees. 
Like you saw there a number of 

1015
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:39,960
years where Elliott was at the 
very, very top of the sport and 

1016
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:44,440
he would run Berlin and he would
he wouldn't really be racing 

1017
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:47,760
anyone because he would take 
like 80% of the price of the 

1018
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:49,880
appearance fee. 
And so everyone's like, well, 

1019
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:51,240
I'm just going to, I'm not doing
this. 

1020
00:56:51,240 --> 00:56:53,680
Like I'm not if I'm not going to
get an appearance fee, I'm going

1021
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:56,760
somewhere else. 
So yeah, that would need to be 

1022
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,680
sorted out as well. 
But I think I'm less worried 

1023
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:03,360
about in the marathon because 
there are so many like good 

1024
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:06,600
marathoners and you can do to a 
year and you're always kind of 

1025
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:11,960
going to be in those same, those
same swimming in those same 

1026
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:13,160
waters. 
But yeah. 

1027
00:57:13,720 --> 00:57:16,200
Yeah. 
All right, so to pick your 

1028
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:20,000
brain, where is the marathon 
going now in terms of just like 

1029
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:25,120
on the in the mass level, it's 
you know, we're in this third 

1030
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:31,720
running boom of sorts, second or
third, whatever might be like on

1031
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:35,360
the elite side of things with 
Connor raising the bar for the 

1032
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:40,360
Americans kipped him rest in 
peace, like ran his his thing. 

1033
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:45,360
But now you got Kip limo and 
John career talking about two 

1034
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:50,400
sub two O 1 like as someone who 
was in these races not that long

1035
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:54,200
ago, like where do where do you 
see this take off point now on 

1036
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:56,760
the elite side? 
Well, if we're going back to the

1037
00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:01,600
marathon czar, I think that 
there should be like, like World

1038
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,800
Athletics should pick two 
marathons a year that are world 

1039
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:08,360
record eligible, right? 
So it should be like Berlin and 

1040
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:12,680
London or Berlin and Rotterdam 
or whatever you have to bid to 

1041
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:14,960
be world record, the world 
record race. 

1042
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:18,160
Did you write about this in on 
LinkedIn or was this just 

1043
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:20,680
something you dropped in our in 
our group chat cuz? 

1044
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:23,040
I it might have been something I
dropped in the group chat, but 

1045
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,000
there should be one in the fall,
one in the spring and there 

1046
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:30,560
should be no other rabbits. 
So like let's if you want to go 

1047
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:33,440
run sub two O 1, great, like I 
love that for you. 

1048
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:36,480
Like awesome, you got to go 
here. 

1049
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,440
You got to go here if you want a
rabbit, an A that concentrates 

1050
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:45,080
talent, but B like non paced 
races are way more exciting. 

1051
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:52,400
And in the current situation, 
like everybody who every race 

1052
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:55,400
who has the rabbits, they have 
to like have something to hype 

1053
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:57,200
up. 
And so every race becomes a 

1054
00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:59,520
world record attempt. 
And similar to like the 

1055
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:02,560
proliferation of major 
marathons, like if every world 

1056
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:05,760
record, every race is a world 
record attempt, what's the point

1057
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:09,600
of any of them being special? 
So I'm all for like that. 

1058
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:13,560
That's what I hope happens. 
What I think will happen is the 

1059
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:16,440
opposite, where every race 
becomes world record attempt and

1060
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:21,840
talent gets dispersed. 
And at some point times like 

1061
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:25,240
we'll start to plateau because 
there are only so many fast 

1062
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:27,880
courses and only so many people 
who can command these big 

1063
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:31,200
appearance fees and there are 
only so many opportunities to 

1064
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:36,240
run, you know, two O 1. 
And so it's just going to be 

1065
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:39,000
spread out and the opposite of 
what is good and exciting. 

1066
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:41,480
All right, marathons are two fun
ones. 

1067
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:44,240
How long does Kiptom's world 
record last? 

1068
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:46,480
And how long does Chef and 
Gettich's last? 

1069
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:51,000
Assuming Chef and Gettich 
doesn't get hers stripped, Yeah.

1070
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:55,560
So like how long until another 
woman runs under 2O210 

1071
00:59:55,560 --> 01:00:00,600
basically? 
I would say 5-5 ish years for 

1072
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:02,760
both. 
OK is my guess. 

1073
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:04,520
Yeah. 
All right. 

1074
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:10,040
The the the the person who will 
potentially break those maybe 

1075
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:11,880
hasn't even gotten into the 
marathon yet. 

1076
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:14,840
Probably not. 
Yeah, it'll probably be someone 

1077
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:19,040
similar to Kip Toom, who is 
like, very young and immediately

1078
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:22,240
is really good at the marathon. 
Yeah. 

1079
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:26,680
How did you feel about just sort
of your the age that you jumped 

1080
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:29,480
into marathoning? 
Because joining an AZ was very 

1081
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:33,160
much a a Rhodes focused group 
and you kind of knew that from 

1082
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:36,400
the get go. 
Connor still has 1 foot on the 

1083
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:41,520
track, but has, you know, done 
moved to the marathon a little 

1084
01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:44,480
bit earlier than people in the 
past did. 

1085
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:47,160
What's your sort of 
recommendation of just sort of 

1086
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:51,920
when top track talent should 
make their marathon debut? 

1087
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:53,400
I. 
Think you should run your best 

1088
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:58,000
event during your best years? 
And so like, I actually like 

1089
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:00,560
what Connor's doing. 
Also, like he and I have very 

1090
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:04,360
different physiologies where 
he's like quick and like he's 

1091
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:09,280
much more of a sports car than I
am or was, you know, like I 

1092
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:11,560
could get into one pace and I 
could grind for a really long 

1093
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:15,000
time and I could get up and down
hills and I could, you know, 

1094
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:17,440
deal with conditions really 
well. 

1095
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:19,800
But like, he is much quicker 
than I am. 

1096
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:23,200
So I like that he is still like 
touching that faster gear. 

1097
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:26,000
Like it's good for him to not 
lose it, where for me there was 

1098
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:30,240
nothing to lose. 
Like I ran 345 in college and 

1099
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:34,160
1351 was my 5000 PB and it was 
in the second-half of a 10K. 

1100
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:38,000
So it's like I wasn't like there
was, I wasn't losing anything by

1101
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:41,120
not going to the track. 
I like that he's kind of staying

1102
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:46,360
quick, but I think people should
run their best races at their 

1103
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:48,480
best years. 
So like if you think you're 

1104
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:51,160
going to be better at the 
marathon, you should just move 

1105
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:54,480
up to the marathon. 
You know, like if you have a bad

1106
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:58,440
5K time, a decent 10K time, a 
better half marathon time, you 

1107
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:01,880
should just try the marathon 
young and see if you like it, 

1108
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:06,600
see if it's good for you, see if
it's something that you take to.

1109
01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:10,920
And if you're like someone more 
like Grant Fisher, who's really 

1110
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:14,160
awesome at the 5000 and really 
awesome at the 10,000, you 

1111
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:15,480
shouldn't be looking at the 
marathon. 

1112
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:17,320
You should just be focusing on 
what you're the best at. 

1113
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:19,240
Really. 
OK, I say I was I was thinking 

1114
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:22,720
that you are maybe leading 
towards if your grant give it a 

1115
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:25,080
shot. 
I mean give the half at least a 

1116
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:29,240
shot first before taking a stab 
at the marathon, but maybe 

1117
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:32,600
within the next year or so. 
I mean, it's just sort of the 

1118
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:37,760
5K10K has also become an event 
where it at the championships, 

1119
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:41,200
the way it's gone, it's like 
there's so many guys in 

1120
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:45,240
contention that the medals could
be 10 different guys. 

1121
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:47,960
And so you can't just be like, 
all right, because you meddled 

1122
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:50,160
in one year, like you should 
stay in this event for the next 

1123
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:53,520
four years. 
That's kind of how long he wants

1124
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:56,480
to stay in the 5010 thousand. 
I would support whatever 

1125
01:02:56,480 --> 01:03:01,520
decision he chooses. 
But I think like the marathon is

1126
01:03:01,520 --> 01:03:05,840
like such a commitment, like 
both time wise and energy wise. 

1127
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:09,840
If you are unsure about it or if
you like have options like if 

1128
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:14,200
you're someone who's making 
teams, you should keep trying to

1129
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:17,120
make like world championship 
teams and keep putting yourself 

1130
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:20,320
in the mix for medals. 
And at this point in the US, 

1131
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:23,000
like distance running, if you're
making the US team, you're 

1132
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:28,680
probably could meddle, you know?
And so if you're the type of 

1133
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:33,480
person who's like pretty good at
the 10K but can't close in 222, 

1134
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:35,800
then you got to find a different
way to be a niche. 

1135
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:38,240
You got to find a different 
niche, you know, and maybe 

1136
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:42,560
that's cleaning up on the roads,
maybe that's moving to the 

1137
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:44,920
marathon or trying 1/2 and 
seeing how it goes. 

1138
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:48,000
Or like, nothing wrong with like
doing a marathon block without 

1139
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:50,840
doing a marathon at the end. 
Like if you're not sure how it's

1140
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:53,080
going to go, like you could 
spend a fall where you're going 

1141
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:56,000
to be doing base training 
anyways, like run really high 

1142
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:59,600
mileage, do long run workouts. 
Like do 10 by mile. 

1143
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:03,320
Do like, you know, don't you 
don't need to do VO2 Max work 

1144
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:06,360
year round. 
You can do threshold work and do

1145
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:10,720
long run workouts and even if 
that doesn't like go that well, 

1146
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:14,720
you'll be really strong when it 
comes to time to run track or 

1147
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:19,600
run Rd. races or run cross 
country like so I think it 

1148
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:22,720
depends on who you are. 
Like if you are someone who has 

1149
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:25,960
a place on the track and is 
competing at diamond leagues, 

1150
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:27,440
competing at World 
Championships, you should keep 

1151
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:30,640
doing that because careers are 
like too short. 

1152
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:34,520
Like even 10 years, like I had a
10 year career. 10 years is like

1153
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:37,680
goes by pretty quick when you're
kind of breaking it into like 6 

1154
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:40,880
months at a time. 
You know, like 6 months is about

1155
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:42,440
how long it takes to train for a
marathon. 

1156
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:45,280
You know, when you think about 
like you want to be rested 

1157
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:48,920
coming in, you need to 2020 some
weeks you need to recover 

1158
01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:53,480
afterwards. 
It goes by fast when you are 

1159
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:55,360
thinking and that those types of
blocks. 

1160
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:58,360
And so if you have a niche, if 
you're really good at something,

1161
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:02,960
you should keep doing it. 
On the topic of moving up, your 

1162
01:05:03,360 --> 01:05:06,880
close friend Steven Kirsch 
obviously found some success, 

1163
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:09,560
like in the trail and ultra 
scene. 

1164
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:14,000
Like as you were sort of 
weighing your move, you know, 

1165
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,160
after the marathon, was there 
any part of you that was like, 

1166
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,720
hey, yeah, you know what it it 
worked for for Kirsch? 

1167
01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:22,720
I should give this a shot too. 
No, I have never had any 

1168
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:24,680
inclination or interest in 
moving up. 

1169
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:28,440
Like, no, I didn't. 
No, I was good without that. 

1170
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:36,120
All right, final, final couple 
questions for you is, I guess, 

1171
01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:40,720
like when, you know, you've got 
all these foible fans who are 

1172
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:44,160
out there who might be 
devastated by the news that it's

1173
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:45,200
it's over. 
Maybe they've come to. 

1174
01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:47,320
Yeah. 
I think a lot of them have come 

1175
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:50,400
to to piece with the idea of you
being retired for over the last 

1176
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:53,040
couple months. 
But what is sort of like the the

1177
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:56,240
lasting memory you got you you 
have for this hive of yours 

1178
01:05:56,240 --> 01:05:58,680
where it's like it was the 
burrito Mafia for a bit. 

1179
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:02,200
Yeah, but I guess like what, 
what is it that you want them to

1180
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:04,760
to take away from the good times
you guys had? 

1181
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:08,760
That's a good question. 
Like whatever they like want it 

1182
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:12,800
to be, you know, like if they 
are, if they have some, if if I 

1183
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:16,240
made somebody feel some sort of 
way positively or negatively 

1184
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:19,000
great, like that's awesome. 
But like I don't have any. 

1185
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:23,640
I don't have any like interest 
in like crafting my legacy or 

1186
01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:26,280
like even having like a legacy 
in the sport. 

1187
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:29,520
Like I think I either did enough
to be important or didn't do 

1188
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:32,400
enough to be important, and I 
don't really care either way. 

1189
01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:39,280
I'm I'm good on what I did in 
the sport and I don't need to 

1190
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:42,720
like re litigate whether or not 
it was good enough to like 

1191
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:45,400
whatever you know, it's but it's
done. 

1192
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:50,400
It's in the past and I'm happy 
if I made people feel any type 

1193
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:53,320
of way and I hope that they I 
hope that they don't care that 

1194
01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:54,720
I'm retired because that'd be 
weird. 

1195
01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:59,200
Like I hope that they enjoyed 
the time, enjoyed watching me 

1196
01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:01,800
race. 
If they didn't, that's fine too.

1197
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:04,920
I don't, I don't know, like I 
don't really have a lot of 

1198
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:09,000
interest in like looking back or
like thinking about my legacy. 

1199
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:11,320
And that was, that's something 
that's come like since I 

1200
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:14,480
retired, Like I think I was 
having a lot more thoughts about

1201
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:19,240
that when I was like 
contemplating retirement and 

1202
01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:22,480
when things weren't going that 
well, I was like, how is this 

1203
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:25,800
going to do with whatever? 
And now I'm like, it doesn't 

1204
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:27,920
matter. 
Like I'm we're all going to be 

1205
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:30,120
forgotten. 
I guess it's so it's weird to, 

1206
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:33,080
you know, once the career is 
over to take a zoomed out lens 

1207
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:35,920
and be like, I guess I was 
people's a couple people's 

1208
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:40,240
favorite athlete for a bit and 
now now that that they don't 

1209
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:42,080
have that. 
All right. 

1210
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:45,920
So final thing is people are 
wondering where can they find 

1211
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:48,400
you now? 
You'll be around this weekend US

1212
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:51,200
cross country championships 
taking place in Portland. 

1213
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:55,080
That's your home base. 
And also you've been you. 

1214
01:07:55,160 --> 01:07:57,160
You've got a new job. 
Tell the people about it. 

1215
01:07:57,480 --> 01:07:59,880
Yeah, I'm the director of 
marketing at Portland Running 

1216
01:07:59,880 --> 01:08:01,480
Company. 
So it's been really fun. 

1217
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:04,800
Every day is kind of like a 
little bit different. 

1218
01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:08,960
Like I always get in there and I
think I'm going to be super 

1219
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:12,040
productive in this way. 
And then all of a sudden, like 

1220
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:15,480
all the kegs at one of our store
are empty and we got to go 

1221
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:18,760
figure that out. 
So it's like every day is 

1222
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:20,000
different. 
I really like that. 

1223
01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:23,920
We've had a really good group 
runs, done some cool stuff. 

1224
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:26,960
Yeah, this weekend will be fun. 
We're had, we got Naz Elite 

1225
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:30,720
coming in on Thursday to do a 
talk and then Nico Young coming 

1226
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:33,920
in on Sunday to do a talk. 
So it's been great. 

1227
01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:36,520
I mean, so it's allowed me to 
like, stay in the running world 

1228
01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:39,560
and like be connected to like, 
quote, UN quote real runners, 

1229
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:42,040
which has been fun. 
Yeah, it won't be too long 

1230
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:45,560
before I probably call you up 
and be like, hey Scott, you 

1231
01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:48,960
wanna do a watch along at the 
New York City Marathon or the 

1232
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:51,240
Chicago Marathon or Boston one 
of these days? 

1233
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:55,560
So just keep keep your phone 
line open for me. 

1234
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:56,960
Sounds good. 
You know my number? 

1235
01:08:57,080 --> 01:08:59,160
Yeah. 
All right, Scott, appreciate you

1236
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:00,240
doing this. 
Thanks. 

1237
01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:02,960
Thanks a lot for the time. 
Thanks a lot for all the 

1238
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:05,240
memories. 
You've you've been surpassed as 

1239
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:09,000
the most regular recurring guest
on the show. 

1240
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:12,399
But I feel like you you're 
probably at peace with it being 

1241
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:15,640
with it being Connor at this 
point, just because he's kind of

1242
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:18,840
taken with what you accomplished
in the marathon as well. 

1243
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:22,399
And, you know, use that as a 
jumping off point to keep things

1244
01:09:22,399 --> 01:09:25,720
going. 
Yeah, no, I I think like the 

1245
01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:28,920
theme of this episode has been 
like very much like OK with 

1246
01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:31,240
moving forward. 
And so I guess it's OK. 

1247
01:09:31,240 --> 01:09:34,359
Like Connor has my title. 
Perfect. 

1248
01:09:34,359 --> 01:09:36,080
Appreciate it, Scott. 
Thanks, Chris. 

1249
01:09:37,359 --> 01:09:39,040
Thank you all for listening to 
this episode. 

1250
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:41,120
This episode was produced by 
Jasmine Fair. 

1251
01:09:41,279 --> 01:09:43,960
I love doing this for you guys. 
So please do me a favor and 

1252
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:46,720
leave a five star view on Apple 
Podcast or Spotify. 

1253
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:49,319
That helps us grow the show and 
get even more awesome guests. 

1254
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:51,399
Let me know what you're enjoying
about the show. 

1255
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:53,880
Make sure you're subscribed or 
following on your favorite 

1256
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:55,720
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Players, please share this 

1257
01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:58,080
episode with your friends if you
think that they'll get any value

1258
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:00,360
or inspiration out of it. 
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1259
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:02,520
Visit citiusmag.com for a lot 
more. 

1260
01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:04,880
We've got a brand new website 
with tons more articles, videos 

1261
01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:07,320
and podcasts. 
As always, I love track and 

1262
01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:09,520
field. 
I'm Chris Chavez, see you next 

1263
01:10:09,520 --> 01:10:09,720
time.