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What's up everyone? 20 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,200 You are listening to the CDs Mag podcast. 21 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:09,840 I'm your host Chris Chavez, and every week we go beyond the 22 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,520 results to bring you conversations with the biggest 23 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,320 names on the track, the roads and behind the scenes, from 24 00:01:15,320 --> 00:01:18,760 world class athletes and coaches to innovators shaping the sport. 25 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,040 If it's happening on the track, we're covering it with real 26 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,080 insights that sharpen minds, deep dives into the moments that 27 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,840 define careers and the kind of access to the pros you won't get 28 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,840 anywhere else. So let's get into it because we 29 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:33,400 love track and. Field. 30 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,560 My guest for today's episode is Charles Hicks, the 24 year old 31 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,800 Nike athlete, Stanford alum, and former NCAA cross country 32 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:46,000 champion who just ran 2 hours, 4 minutes and 35 seconds at the 33 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,200 2026 Boston Marathon to place 7th overall. 34 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,120 That is also the second fastest marathon ever run by an 35 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,400 American. It's only his second marathon in 36 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,760 his career. He did the entire build on 37 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,280 simulated altitude, not a single breath of real mountain air 38 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:07,360 outside of a layover in Denver, which may make him honestly the 39 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,720 fastest sea level trained marathoner in history. 40 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,240 Charles turned to the marathon two years ago, not at his own 41 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,080 suggestion, but at coach Jerry Schumacher's. 42 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,600 He ran thirteen O 9 for 5K in his first year as a pro, but he 43 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:23,880 looked way too comfortable in his long run. 44 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,800 So Jerry pulled him aside and said I think this is the event. 45 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,360 What followed was a nine month racing gap, the Cherry Blossom 46 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,480 10 Miller that validated everything, a 2O9 debut in New 47 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:39,160 York without a watch where he negative split the course, and 48 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,400 then Boston. In this conversation, Charles 49 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,280 breaks down the full arc of how we got here. 50 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,360 His COVID era decision to just run 12 miles every single day in 51 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,160 the Florida heat which planted the seeds to his aerobic 52 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,960 capacity. His framework for thinking about 53 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:59,160 volume as a decade long project. The Nike prototype shoe that he 54 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:01,800 wore. The famous heart rate mystery on 55 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,080 Strava and what it felt like to see 2O four on the clock when he 56 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,080 thought that two O 6 would have been a phenomenal day. 57 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,760 He also tells us whether the door is shut on his track 58 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,800 career, what he thinks about Chicago versus New York for this 59 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,960 fall and what the difference is between confidence and 60 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,320 arrogance. So without further ado, I really 61 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,480 enjoyed this conversation with Charles Hicks. 62 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,440 All right, now welcome on Charles Hicks. 63 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:42,240 Fresh off of his two O 435 at the Boston Marathon. 64 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,560 And it's been we were just saying right before we started 65 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,360 recording a crazy week for the marathon where you have that 66 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,880 performance. Boston was crazy fast. 67 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,760 London we see two guys break 2 hours. 68 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,440 America's Got another two O 5 guy who just pops off at a 69 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,840 random marathon in Ohio. I just spoke with him this 70 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:05,400 morning. We we're putting out that 71 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:06,840 episode. But I guess, Charles, I guess 72 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,360 what do you make of just kind of the marathon craziness that's 73 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,000 happening right now? That's a great question. 74 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,520 I think it was so funny because I think right before we started, 75 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,800 we mentioned and I agreed at first I was thinking it, it was 76 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:20,839 a crazy two weeks, right for marathoning. 77 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,560 And it's hard to wrap your head around, you know, I'm still on 78 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,120 my 7 week break coming off of or seven day break coming off of 79 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,560 Boston. And so it's like it's 80 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:34,440 unbelievable to think it's Monday to Sunday just non-stop. 81 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,520 Some of the craziest, most inspiring headlines I've ever 82 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,640 seen. And I think that the most 83 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,480 helpful performance, optimal beneficial way to kind of think 84 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,920 about it is just that the ceiling keeps getting moved up, 85 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,480 you know, and increased. And I think that's kind of the 86 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,360 most exciting and human part of our sport is when anyone does 87 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,320 something, there's just kind of this waterfall effect where 88 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,680 everyone else seems to kind of rise to the occasion and, and 89 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,160 believe that it's more possible. So for me, I mean, breaking 2 90 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,800 was the reason that I got into the sport of marathoning. 91 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,080 It was, you know, my favorite race I'd ever seen at the time. 92 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,960 And I didn't know I'd be doing it quite this early, but I, I 93 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,960 knew I wanted to do it after watching Kid Chogi do that. 94 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:24,000 And so I think what's what's really changed for me is the 95 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:29,040 idea that, you know, it required all this production and, and 96 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:30,960 perfection in order to be possible. 97 00:05:31,280 --> 00:05:34,800 The fact that it's now been done on a circuit that's been raced, 98 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:36,920 you know, for so long at this point. 99 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,440 I mean, some of these in Boston, it was like the 130th iteration. 100 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:45,560 And it just makes it feel like this is the right time to be in 101 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,120 this environment and also that the decisions we made a couple 102 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:53,360 years ago to be here today, you know, we didn't miss the boat. 103 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,480 So when someone asks you, hey, why are people running so fast 104 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,160 in the marathon? Like, you probably would get 105 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,520 that question if you, you know, were at a restaurant and just 106 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:04,880 talking to a stranger or whatever. 107 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:07,360 What's your answer? I guess, like, now? 108 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,600 And I guess, like, you can get nerdy because this is speaking 109 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,520 to the Sidious Mag podcast audience where it's mostly, you 110 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,880 know, a lot of track nerds. But what's your sort of theory 111 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,440 as to why everyone's popped off lately? 112 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,200 I think the main thing I usually go to is my own lived 113 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,040 experience, obviously, because that's the the only thing I can 114 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,040 speak to. And I think that it's not super 115 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:35,280 surprising to me because there were forces that got me into the 116 00:06:35,280 --> 00:06:36,600 marathon. That means that there's a 117 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,640 certain gravity that the race had, right? 118 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:42,560 There's a reason that we decided to do it at an unprecedentedly 119 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,040 early time. And I think if you look through 120 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,160 a purely American lens, I think Connor Mance is like the big one 121 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,960 that that people refer to as like, I think he just really 122 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,280 changed the way that a lot of people think about their sport 123 00:06:56,280 --> 00:06:58,200 and kind of longevity aspect of it. 124 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,800 Personally, I think that the shoes have made a huge 125 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:07,760 difference in a way that that's relatively unexpected. 126 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,280 I think a lot of people look at them and they go, OK, like it's 127 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:13,760 awesome these shoes like take off all this time from your 128 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:15,600 race. But I don't think that's 129 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,080 actually the heart of it. I think that what the shoes have 130 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,600 unlocked for people training wise and most importantly injury 131 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:26,800 mitigation wise have completely changed the landscape of long 132 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,720 endurance training and kind of what your body can get away with 133 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:36,080 basically in terms of volume. And I, I noticed that for myself 134 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,840 in college, I was able to run a lot more than I was expecting to 135 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,120 going into college. And I think I'm starting to now, 136 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,400 you know, ramp up into the 120's, hopefully 130's this 137 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,160 training block. And I don't think that was 138 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:52,480 possible with the intensity that we're able to execute on that 139 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:54,080 today. I mean, if you look at some of 140 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,600 the shoes that marathoners used to run, it's like, I wouldn't 141 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,000 want to walk through a grocery store in those, much less, you 142 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,280 know, Heartbreak Hill. And so I think that that the 143 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:09,440 interdisciplinary advantage of new technology paired with the 144 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,120 last main thing, I think it's now that information is 145 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,200 spreading like wildfire. You have things like, you know, 146 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,000 carb gels, fueling plans, different training 147 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,600 methodologies, double threshold, different mileage. 148 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,200 You know, on Strava, you can see, oh, this person's doing 149 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,200 this. And, you know, I was talking to 150 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,960 someone, I think it was the mayor of Eugene actually 151 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,200 yesterday who was telling me about how when racing, you know, 152 00:08:34,159 --> 00:08:36,440 when I think she was running the Boston Marathon, you'd find out 153 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,600 the results in the newspaper the next day. 154 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,760 Whereas now, I know, you know, Connor Mance goes for an easy 155 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,800 run or vice versa. I can, you know, just like, see 156 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,320 what the best people in the country, in the world are doing. 157 00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:53,760 And I think pairing all of those factors together just basically 158 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,800 has created this flywheel where everyone's innovating. 159 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,680 And we're kind of also all innovating, I think off of each 160 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:03,880 other a little bit. People are taking risks and, and 161 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,280 are able to kind of research them beforehand. 162 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,040 You know, like the altitude tent that I'm in is a great example. 163 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,040 And I think we're just living in a time where people are really 164 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,960 trying to push the needle and we're all doing it together. 165 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:17,960 And I think that's that's what makes it so exciting. 166 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,400 Where does your curiosity lie? For the most part? 167 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,120 Because it's, I presume, right? You have this big trust in Jerry 168 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,040 to hand you the training, right? So he takes care of that side of 169 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:29,960 things. You've got Nike behind you 170 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,960 giving you the shoes, the latest and greatest sort of technology 171 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,400 that they have to put forth. But then you mentioned just sort 172 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,200 of all these other different elements. 173 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:42,880 Of. What goes into these successful 174 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,880 performances like on the fueling side, like is that sort of like 175 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:50,320 where you're, you know, looking for those marginal gains or even 176 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,840 just studying, I guess, like how competition unfolds? 177 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,440 Like what do you like most curious about? 178 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:01,440 I think for myself, in terms of how I'd measure curiosity is 179 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:06,440 kind of like if training was a series of minds, right? 180 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,600 And there's all these different branches in front of you that, 181 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:14,080 you know, might have different reward levels for the amount of 182 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:15,960 energy you want to invest. You say, OK, I'm going to mine 183 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:17,200 in this direction or this direction. 184 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,800 Hopefully I get a result like I had in Boston. 185 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:24,720 I'd say the most untapped vein for me is volume. 186 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:30,360 So I think that it's really just a pure physics equation 187 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,720 basically. Like I think people see 188 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,480 marathoners, they see people peek in their early 30s, right, 189 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,920 maybe mid to early 30s, some people in their late 30s. 190 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,200 And I think they see that and think, you know, there's 191 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,440 definitely a callousing component to the marathon. 192 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,320 Maybe it's more ones you race, maybe you get better and all 193 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,760 these different theories. But my theory is just the more 194 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:53,920 time you spend on this earth, the more mileage you cover, 195 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,320 right? And so I think it's a 24 year 196 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,880 old. That's the biggest hurdle I want 197 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,520 to get over, you know, as safely and quickly as possible is if 198 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,240 I'm racing against someone who's been alive for 10 years longer 199 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,880 than I have, how do I match them in terms of callousing? 200 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,080 And I've been very lucky historically to not be injured 201 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,800 as much as I think a lot of athletes regularly are at this 202 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,280 point in their career. And so I think that's kind of 203 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,960 how I've been able to bridge the gap up to this point is my 204 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,160 training age is probably a little bit older than the most 205 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,280 24 year olds just from volume run. 206 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:33,040 And so that's what I'm trying to kind of stay on top of in the 207 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,400 sense that I want to make sure that I keep contributing to 208 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,160 what's made it so consistent without under training 209 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:44,480 basically, because you basically live between not maximizing your 210 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,480 potential and potentially getting injured, right? 211 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,880 And so I think riding that line to the highest possible volume 212 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,720 until I'm starting to run, you know, some of these guys were 213 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,240 running 150, you know, miles a week. 214 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:02,560 And so I think that's kind of the main curiosity I have is, is 215 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,920 going down that route, figuring out how to maximize that stuff, 216 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:10,360 making some adjustments to maybe make training mileage easier, 217 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:14,160 and just overall continuing to improve and optimize my 218 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,280 situation. And that's what they asked. 219 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,120 I think Sebastian Sawy yesterday is like, if there's one thing in 220 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,320 training that you, you know, credit a big part of success to, 221 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,720 what would it be? And he just said mileage and I. 222 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,960 Screenshot of that and said it to Jerry off of your guys post. 223 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:29,840 Actually, that was a great graphic. 224 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:34,120 Then, because when I chatted with Zu here, he kind of said 225 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,080 the same thing. It's like when you hear just 226 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:41,440 sort of how much John career is doing and then saw way and 227 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:46,080 Kiplimo, they're putting out these big numbers 15160 even, 228 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,240 you know, the before he died, like Calvin Kipton was thought 229 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:53,640 to have run 170. Gets me tired at even just sort 230 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,640 of the thought and what Zuhair kind of brought up was like, 231 00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:01,640 it's just, it's a lifestyle kind of challenge here in the States 232 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,640 where, you know, you've got so many other things to do, go to 233 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,720 the grocery store or whatever, like these tiny things that add 234 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:12,840 up that in Kenya, when they're able to do this, it's they have 235 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,320 these camps, they get up, they go for a run, they come back, 236 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,240 someone's prepared the food. And then they, you know, go for 237 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,520 their second run. They take care of the recovery 238 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,440 just at the camp and they do it all over again. 239 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:27,120 And so it's kind of interesting to hear that both you and Zuhair 240 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,680 know it's like, all right, this would be a big unlock. 241 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:34,280 It's just sort of like, how do I frame the rest of my life to be 242 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,320 able to fit that in? And I guess like, what do you 243 00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:40,280 think you would see on the other end of it if you did start, you 244 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,880 know, for maybe this fall or whatever, try to tackle, hey, 245 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,680 150 for a little bit. You're also super young too. 246 00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:49,080 It's like it doesn't. You don't need to rush into the 247 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,280 deep end. That's, that's kind of the way I 248 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,800 always think about training and, and performance and, and really 249 00:13:55,920 --> 00:14:00,320 at its heart, how to win is, you know, if, if running was a big 250 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,840 poker game, what are the cards that I'm holding right? 251 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,360 Like what are the advantages and what are the the drawbacks? 252 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,440 And cause training is a little bit like poker in some ways. 253 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,840 You even with Strava, you don't know how someone's feeling on a 254 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,560 certain day. You, you see the cards they're 255 00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:18,240 holding sometimes, but you know they could be bluffing, right? 256 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,160 And. We'll talk about your heart rate 257 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:21,400 in a bit. Yeah, exactly. 258 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,200 Yeah. I mean, I just, I hit upload 259 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,680 man, but maybe I got to get a chest strap at some point. 260 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:34,160 But yeah, I am always obviously unbelievably fascinated by what 261 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,840 other people are are doing to try to kind of take things to 262 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,080 the next level. Because like I said earlier in 263 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,160 this podcast, when someone's able to do something, to do it 264 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,520 successfully, it kind of it's kind of like clearing the way 265 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:47,480 through a jungle, right? Like they chopped down the 266 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,920 branch and there's either something dangerous or something 267 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,400 great behind it. And so when you see someone 268 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,480 training 150 miles a week, you go, OK, that person's doing 269 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,240 that. More importantly, how are they 270 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:00,560 doing that while staying healthy? 271 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,120 And, and how do I emulate that with my own training? 272 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,240 An example where you could go wrong with that I think is if 273 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,360 I'm a 24 year old, I see a 31 year old running 150 miles a 274 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,360 week, I go, OK, I'm just going to run 150 miles a week. 275 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,520 That's not, I think, appreciating some very important 276 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,280 context, particularly I think for me, time based context of 277 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:24,000 how you get up to, you know, that point at that person's 278 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,160 exact stage in their career in the exact way they're doing it 279 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,920 in the president. So for me, I'm thinking, you 280 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,680 know, I'm 24, I got 7 years. Maybe by the time I'm 31, I 281 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,040 could be above 150 miles a week, right? 282 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,920 But for now, I got to focus on basically like a tapestry 283 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,600 weaving this next block of that attached to what I did 284 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:45,280 previously. And so that's why I'm thinking 285 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:49,120 more of like, can I get to 130? I was able to train at one 20s, 286 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,280 you know, can I make it more consistent? 287 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,400 Can I maybe get up faster and hold it for longer? 288 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,880 And so it's all these ways where I'm trying to kind of shape what 289 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,400 I've already created as opposed to kind of look like what 290 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,160 someone else is doing, as opposed to just, you know, 291 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,680 cutting everything off and hoping that that it works for 292 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,480 me. So you've fully leaned into 293 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,640 marathoner like that's what it's going to be going. 294 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:13,600 Forward to do anything else at this point. 295 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,000 So take me back to just sort of the first conversation you had 296 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:21,080 with Jerry that made you want to go in this direction. 297 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,800 And when you guys, you know, look at sort of even the first 298 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,840 two years of the marathoning experiment, where did you expect 299 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,360 to be? And I'm assuming you guys have 300 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:35,000 surpassed us. Yeah, we wrote two O 435 three 301 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,240 years ago on the light board. No, So that's a great question 302 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,160 and and honestly a great opportunity where I think it's 303 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:46,600 really, I like to, I love to give coaches credit for when 304 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,200 this explicitly happens. And there's two ways that I 305 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,120 think innovation, iteration, whatever you want to call it 306 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:54,560 happens between an athlete and a coach. 307 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,560 Either the athlete brings the idea to the coach, the coach 308 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:01,000 kind of sits, digests what they think about it and then brings 309 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,800 it back to the athlete. But in this instance, it's the 310 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,520 other way where Jerry actually pulled me for a meeting and was 311 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:11,520 like, Hey, I'm seeing you doing all these longer workouts, these 312 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,480 long run workouts and you just look too comfortable relatively 313 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:16,680 to what we're doing on the track. 314 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,480 And we could keep going on the track for a couple more years. 315 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,960 You I read 13 O 9 my first year and there are a lot of positive 316 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,720 signs, I would say, but I just don't think it was really where 317 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,400 my heart was at. But most importantly, I think 318 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,640 coming from Jerry, he was informing me that might not even 319 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,800 be where my Physiology was at, right? 320 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,000 And so I think that there was definitely a friction point for 321 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,440 me. They're just, I think looking 322 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,440 backwards, hindsight's 2020 is just, this is probably what I'm 323 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,400 best at. And I think being able to, to 324 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,280 really experience that's been really rewarding. 325 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,400 But to give Jerry full credit, I mean, he came up with the idea 326 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,280 of Foley. He put in my court, asked me if 327 00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:57,960 if that was something I'd be interested in doing. 328 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,400 And the way we ended up deciding to move forward with it was 329 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,760 taking at least a full year. And this is where I give full 330 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,760 credit to to Nike, especially because there was a, a point 331 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:15,600 where I had a little bit of a set back where we were going to 332 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,400 race. I can't remember what it was. 333 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:22,320 I think it was the Houston half Marathon early, early 2025. 334 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,560 And it just got pushed back because there was like some 335 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,160 nerve, whatever I was getting in my knee that I was able to clear 336 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,360 up really quickly. And we just decided to push it 337 00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:33,200 back into cherry blossom instead. 338 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,320 But there is like a nine month period from June to Cherry 339 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,560 Blossom where I didn't race at all and. 340 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,400 That's what I was trying to think of and I just like click 341 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,040 through your results. I was like, there was a period 342 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:48,960 where it's sort of you just disappeared. 343 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,400 So what happened was I raced in I think Belgium in June, then I 344 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,640 was supposed to race Houston after a break in a super long 345 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,040 build of mileage. I had anything that popped up in 346 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,760 like October, November. So we're like, let's delay that 347 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,720 to the Gate River Run. I got the flu before the Gate 348 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:08,800 River run. So we're like, what's the next? 349 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,560 It was literally we went to the circuit that that race was on. 350 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,680 I think it's PRRO. And we're like, what's the next 351 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,320 race on the circuit? Because we just want to get a 352 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,080 road race in at this point. And I ran like 30 miles the week 353 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:24,120 I had the flu and then just did four weeks of like kind of 354 00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:25,640 whatever training leading into it. 355 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,520 And that's why honestly, Cherry Boston was one of the biggest 356 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,800 surprises for me because I hadn't raced in nine months. 357 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,360 I had no idea what to expect and training. 358 00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:40,240 I trained a lot of mileage going in, but it was far from perfect. 359 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,920 You know, the plan changed about 3 or 4 times. 360 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:48,480 And so I think that just Jerry and Nike having the confidence 361 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,840 in me helped me to kind of not feel so concerned because going 362 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,560 to Cherry Boss and I was telling him like, I'd be happy if I was 363 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,400 like top ten. And he was like, no, you have to 364 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,840 try to win this. Like if somebody else is hurting 365 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,280 in this race just based on the workouts I've seen that or if 366 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,800 you're hurting in this race based on the workouts he'd seen, 367 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,920 he'd said that everyone around me had to be hurting too. 368 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,680 And so it was just kind of taking that year and having 369 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:18,160 Jerry's confidence in me. Made it like it. 370 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,280 It's funny because it should have been a lot scarier, I 371 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,880 think, but it just I was never that worried about it because I 372 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,520 felt like everyone around me believed in me so much and most 373 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:31,120 importantly, This is why I came out here is Jerry has so much 374 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:32,600 experience working with athletes. 375 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,720 It's kind of like, I almost trust his perspective on where 376 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,440 my fitness is more than an actual race result. 377 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,600 Like it's to me, they're like relatively synonymous because 378 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:44,080 he's just been doing this for so long. 379 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:48,240 And so all the way long answer to your question, it was Jerry's 380 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,480 idea. We decided to do a year where we 381 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,200 just ran on the roads to prepare. 382 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,800 And then we knew once we'd raised cherry Blossom, we're 383 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,120 kind of just killing time until New York. 384 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:05,120 Yeah, so you see 4514. Jerry sees it. 385 00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:06,520 What does Jerry say after that one? 386 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,680 I just stopped. I mean, because again, it was 387 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:14,040 supposed to be answering the question of like, is this the 388 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,480 route we want to go? Like, is this even possibly a 389 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,320 viable idea? Or did we take a year deviation? 390 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,560 And you know, it could have been horrible. 391 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,440 It could have been a terrible decision, You know what I mean? 392 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,960 We had no idea. And so when I think we were just 393 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,240 looking for a result to give us the belief to fully commit to 394 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,520 the marathon off of. And then I think it was one of 395 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:40,880 the IT was the British born record, American born record. 396 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:42,720 And that was confusing for a bit. 397 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,200 Yeah, yeah. You know, I like to to cause a 398 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,640 ruckus sometimes a little. Bit but someone asks where you 399 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:49,720 from? What do you actually say? 400 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:54,200 I say it's complicated every time and then I give them the 401 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:59,240 the brief elevator pitch life story, born in England, moved to 402 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,560 Florida, College in California and now living in Oregon. 403 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:07,360 And so, yeah, because it is complicated and, and it's a very 404 00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:10,240 unique experience. And, you know, running is a 405 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,200 very, I think nationally spec sport obviously compared to to 406 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,720 some others. And I think it's just, it's one 407 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:21,320 of those situations where, you know, square the puzzle piece 408 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,400 doesn't always fit the system it's in, you know. 409 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:28,520 And so I think I really, really do like though that it, it made 410 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,360 me reflect very carefully on, you know, who I am and, and I 411 00:22:32,360 --> 00:22:35,120 think what I want this journey to mean to me. 412 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:40,600 And so I was able to come by navigating that, that personally 413 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,800 curious nationality question. It helped me actually I think 414 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,880 define myself in a lot of ways. In retrospect, and this is I 415 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,760 think when I was putting together those silly way too 416 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,480 early power rankings, I said that we should have paid way. 417 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,800 More attention rating a little bit, yeah, Yeah. 418 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,600 I said we should have paid way more attention to the cherry 419 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,600 blossom performance last year because it would have shown us a 420 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,440 lot of the signs of what could potentially be possible here. 421 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,520 So where did you guys set sort of your expectations for the 422 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,520 first one out in New York because you end up running two O 423 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,560 959, but where did sort of that fall into what you guys 424 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,720 expected? Yeah, and I think New York was 425 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,520 extremely exciting because I think the two O 9 was always 426 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,160 context dependent. I think we knew the New York was 427 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,560 not a fast course and so we were thinking way more. 428 00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:31,800 I mean, kind of what we did with Cherry Blossom was OK, it's your 429 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,520 first road race, why don't we put you in one that's 430 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,520 championship style instead of paste really fast. 431 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,040 And then that plan just kind of went out the window immediately 432 00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:44,760 and it ended up working really well, obviously with Cherry 433 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:46,520 Blossom. And so we went with a similar 434 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,200 approach instead of Chicago, which is I think a paste 435 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,040 marathon that's typically really fast. 436 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,240 We were like, why don't we figure out if we can just 437 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,080 survive the distance before we worry about running it faster? 438 00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:00,640 And so Jerry wanted me to go to a championship, you know, kind 439 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,480 of race the guy next to you type of race. 440 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,360 And it ended up working out really well because it went out 441 00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:08,400 super slow. I mean, we went out like 65 and 442 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,800 then I think negative split in New York. 443 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:16,600 And so it was really just an opportunity to, I think a little 444 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:21,480 bit of a gripe I'd had with track was I love racing people 445 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:27,600 and it felt like my first year as a pro track athlete, I was 446 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,320 just racing the clock every single time regardless. 447 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,160 Like I would be lined up against some of the most amazing 448 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,440 athletes I had ever raced against in my life. 449 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,240 And at the same time, I would walk away from a 10K having 450 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:39,760 never looked at the guy next to me. 451 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,200 All I could remember is just checking the clock every time we 452 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,400 came around to see if you if you hit a qualifier. 453 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,080 And so I really wanted, I really missed that kind of cross 454 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,280 country style. Like none of that matters. 455 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,080 Just just turn the the time off. I didn't even race with a watch 456 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,680 on because I just wanted to go out there and head hunt 457 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,400 basically because it's just, it's just fun. 458 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,400 And I think that that people are so interesting and you learn a 459 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,920 lot about other people when you're out there, you know, 460 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,480 suffering together. And so All in all, I think it 461 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,000 was just kind of a an opportunity for me to dive in 462 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,400 head first with things that I thought I really loved about the 463 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,320 sport and just basically get to confirm it. 464 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,800 And so the 7th place was just really, I would say unexpected 465 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:30,560 because we didn't really have anyone, I'd say my my age to go 466 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,560 off of. I think Conor Mints probably the 467 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,880 closest example for kind of what his debuts were. 468 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,160 And he was the fastest American ever, you know, up. 469 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,600 Until this weekend. All conditions verse, you know, 470 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,040 that's the marathon's got that little quirk, but I'd say, you 471 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:48,960 know, he's still got a American record, right. 472 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:55,600 And I think that I didn't really presume that that I would be 473 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,480 kind of on that trajectory, I guess, with my first one. 474 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:00,880 And so that was a lot to take it. 475 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,440 And and I think one of my favorite things about running is 476 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,320 every time I think it gives me something back, it makes it 477 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,320 easier for me to commit vice versa into the next training 478 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,960 block. And so that performance just 479 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:18,440 kind of set up I think a very strong foundation for how I 480 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:23,360 believed my future could look in, in this arena basically. 481 00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:28,080 And I was just basically able to go all in off of that and and 482 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,960 really not look bad basically. Interesting that you bring up 483 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,840 Connor, because I think a lot of people draw those comparisons 484 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,360 when they throw out like, oh, you know, like American should 485 00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:41,920 just move to the marathon sooner rather than later. 486 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,680 And so we have just kind of two case studies where Connor's been 487 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,720 very successful at doing that. Now we're starting to see it 488 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:50,720 with you. So all those super shoes only 489 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,440 got introduced 10 years years ago. 490 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,760 Like all of these experiments that we're running are just 491 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,120 really happening in real time. Count out Vincent Moorey. 492 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,840 Yeah, exactly. He's, I mean, he was running an 493 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,640 NCA last year, Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. 494 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,320 I mean, it's just it's it's I think it's a rising tide lifts 495 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,520 all ships, right. And I think that we're just in a 496 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,080 new age where I think that a lot of ways marathon training is 497 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,840 very similar to planting a tree, right? 498 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,480 Like you, you kind of are dealing with something that 499 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,240 happened a long, long time ago. Like for me, I think a lot of 500 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,160 the reasons I went to the marathon even two years ago were 501 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,560 because of decisions that I've made four or five years prior. 502 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,160 For me, a big one was I think in COVID, I was home in Florida and 503 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,880 it was so hot in Florida that I didn't want to double because I 504 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,840 basically felt like I should just run overnight because it 505 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:51,400 was like, I think it was still like 85° at midnight in Florida. 506 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,480 And so I was like, OK, I'm just going to run once every day. 507 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,280 At that time, I was running 85 miles for the first time in my 508 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,640 life. I went from like 50 to 60 to 80 509 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,440 my freshman year just because I had nothing else to do. 510 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,800 And so I started running 12 miles every single day. 511 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,360 I didn't even have a long run. I just had it add up to like 512 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,680 8485. And then I was like, huh, that 513 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,040 worked really well because I had a successful cross country 514 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:13,960 season. Year after that, I was running 515 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,920 95 all singles. Year after that, 105 all 516 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,800 singles. And then I was a pro. 517 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:25,120 And so I've been kind of on the steady 1010 to 15 miles up every 518 00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:28,680 single year trajectory all the way since I was 18. 519 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,880 And you know, that was what, like five years ago now. 520 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:37,600 So six, yeah, six years ago now. And so I think it's just it's, 521 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,880 you're, you're going to see so many of these new performances 522 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,760 coming out, but it's also, you know, going to take a while. 523 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,080 I think it's, it's the other thing that makes me think of is 524 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,480 when, you know, there's a ship that's like 2 miles long, I 525 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,600 think that goes through this canal and it takes 8 hours to, 526 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,920 to change directions because it's so long. 527 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,960 And so I think you're going to see this kind of continue and 528 00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:03,920 ramp up, but it's going to take a while for the mileage to start 529 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,000 layering in. But I think it's just going to 530 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,080 be a crazy 5 to 10 years for a year. 531 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,560 I know, right? It's like the temptation is 532 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,680 there to Fast forward 20 years from now and think of just how 533 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,400 do we reflect upon this era that we're currently in? 534 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:18,920 You brought up Vincent really quick. 535 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,560 Did you get a chance to scroll through his Strava? 536 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,720 I did not. I, I, yeah, I'm starting to 537 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,680 switch back on. It's like usually in the week, 538 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,360 week after the race, I just try to go like as mellow as 539 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,040 possible. But yeah, I I do need to check 540 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,680 that out. Oh man, you're in for a treat 541 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:40,240 where it is probably one of the wildest stravas that I've seen. 542 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:41,200 I'll pull. I'll just. 543 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:41,840 Yeah. How so? 544 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,840 How so? OK, let me see if I'm screwing 545 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,560 up here to. I also just think an underrated 546 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,040 part of it is just how big marathoning seems to be right 547 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,000 now. I just think there's just a lot 548 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,760 of excitement around it. That's, I use the word 549 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,720 gravitational a lot because it's just like any decision you make 550 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,520 in life is happens because it had some kind of gravity that 551 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,720 pulled you towards it. And I think there's just 552 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,720 something to the spectacle of it all as well. 553 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,920 That's just like I once I've experienced it, I just can't go 554 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,040 back. It's especially I New York and 555 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,560 Boston were so different, but yeah, they just had so much 556 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:18,680 energy. It's just crazy. 557 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,680 This episode of The Cities My Podcast is presented by Wahoo. 558 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,680 If you've been paying attention to our shows and you dabble in 559 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,120 the indoor running space, you already know about the Wahoo 560 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:32,840 Kicker Run. It's the treadmill that has 561 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,640 changed the game. Run Free mode matches your pace 562 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,120 automatically. The deck feels like real 563 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,720 asphalt, and it can simulate any course profile that you throw at 564 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,320 it. It's the treadmill that follows 565 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,600 you, not the other way around. 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Lollipop is crushing it with all 600 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,320 these new flavors. I can't keep up. 601 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,360 So I pulled up some notes that I took from it. 602 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,120 So the day before, let's let's just compare here. 603 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,680 What was your shake out like the day before Boston? 604 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,320 What did you do? I was just dude, 30 minutes. 605 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,120 Easy. Easy, yeah. 606 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,880 How easy? I'm scared, I'm scared what is 607 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:25,120 like slow like probably like 7730 bass. 5.6 miles at 5:48 the 608 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,000 day before. What? 609 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,520 That's nuts. That's unique. 610 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:37,600 Five days out ripped a few 2 hundreds closing in 26. 611 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:42,600 That's crazy, yeah. Seven days out, 19 miles at 612 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,040 5:31. Not in super shoes. 613 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,440 What shoes were you wearing? He he just told, he told me that 614 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,280 it was like, I think it's probably the ASICS meta. 615 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,840 Not sure I know a six. Super no, it was something non 616 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,360 carbon plated. Yeah, actually. 617 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,920 His tune up was basically a half marathon that ended up being 618 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:08,080 short and was basically at exactly the same pace that he 619 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,960 ran the full. You're gonna, you're gonna end 620 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,960 up scrolling through this whole thing and just be fascinated by 621 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:16,320 it. Like back in November 8th, he 622 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,800 ran 20 miles at 537. Had had nothing on the calendar 623 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:25,199 at that point. November 1st 20 miles at 5:35 624 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,159 his one his his easy pace is 545 is what he told me. 625 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,199 Like he just runs all his easy runs at 5:00. 45 crazy and yeah, 626 00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:36,600 I I think so that's what's so interesting because what was it? 627 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,840 What was the name of the guy who ran? 628 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,520 I think it was two O 7 in LA. Ethan Shulie or no? 629 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,120 That was totally different, dude. 630 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,239 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like that's one of my 631 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:52,120 favorite things about this too, is it does feel like marathoning 632 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,920 is a lot less solved than I think a lot of people thought. 633 00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:00,200 You know, I think you're seeing a lot of different roads leading 634 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,440 to Rome and a lot of similarities, I think between 635 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,040 the training groups. But I think compared to like 636 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,080 some of the races that I have done previously, it does feel 637 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,480 like there's a lot more Wild West and there should be. 638 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,720 You know, I'll be honest, because I don't think that the 639 00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:22,960 Americans across the board have been as competitive as they are 640 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,320 in other events. You know, I think it's fair to 641 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,280 kind of be super excited about some of the results we've had 642 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,880 and still acknowledge that there is more work to be done. 643 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,800 And so I think that's what I love about seeing people with 644 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:41,360 unconventional Stravas, right, is that everyone doing something 645 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,360 a little bit different is good for the, the greater good 646 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:49,120 because we need to figure out, I think across the board like what 647 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,400 works best and keep taking risks and keep innovating. 648 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,360 And, and I think that that we're starting to see signs that that 649 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,360 we're going to hopefully see some some podium results soon. 650 00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:05,680 A common thread that I think you and Mance share is just sort of 651 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:10,000 the ability to absorb that high mileage training while staying 652 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:11,800 healthy. Connor for the most part, I 653 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,960 guess when, when he's on, how much of that do you think is 654 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,080 like physical versus also like the mental side of it where you 655 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,800 know, you're you, both of you are NCAA cross country 656 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,640 champions, where you guys just seem to have like this tolerance 657 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,640 for discomfort that most people would probably tap out at. 658 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,640 Totally. And I don't know, I mean, 659 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,440 there's definitely an interesting philosophical 660 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,120 question, I think around the nature of discomfort itself. 661 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,280 I've found that the people who can tolerate, I think the most 662 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:48,640 discomfort, the real trick is, is to change what discomfort is 663 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,080 itself. You know, I think that that most 664 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,360 people that endure something that other people seem to think 665 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,280 is impossible are really enduring very little. 666 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:04,400 You know, I think because so much of human psychology is 667 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,240 shapeable by the way that we think about things, we talk 668 00:37:07,240 --> 00:37:10,920 about things and, and our experience of things is there's 669 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,840 a great, great study, One of my favorite studies in the whole 670 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:19,560 world was they took a group of people and they painted 671 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,840 basically a bunch of scars or things that disfigured their 672 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:29,040 faces and told them they were there to basically figure out 673 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,880 whether people were treated differently with, you know, 674 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,400 scars or scary things all over their face, right. 675 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:39,000 And before they left the building, while they were doing 676 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,720 the makeup, they erased the scars, right? 677 00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:45,440 So they didn't actually have anything different about their 678 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:46,560 face. They just thought they did. 679 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,360 And they went out in public. And the vast majority of 680 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,960 participants reported that they were treated way worse, even 681 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:54,600 though they didn't look different at all. 682 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,680 They just thought they did. And so I think when it comes, 683 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,360 you know, back around to talking about running psychology and, 684 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,320 and how much pain we endure, I think a big part of it. 685 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,040 And, you know, I've talked to Connor a couple times, I think I 686 00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:11,120 briefly, and he seems just like it. 687 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:15,280 Incredible dude. And I would imagine if he's 688 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:19,320 similar to me, the main approach is to kind of change the way you 689 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,880 think about some of these things so that, you know, you remove 690 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,080 friction from your life based on the way that you perceive it. 691 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,440 If I think, you know, I'm excited to go do this long run, 692 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:34,120 you know, it's such an, such an incredible opportunity that I'm 693 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,120 able to be outside every day that I'm able to, you know, I 694 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,880 think experience this momentary pain, but across the rest of my 695 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,280 life, it's going to create, I think a lot more positive 696 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,040 experiences. It kind of reshapes that 697 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,920 negative experience into one that feels positive because I 698 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:52,920 know that, you know, the reward is on the way. 699 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,640 And so All in all, super long answer, I think that that it's 700 00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,080 really a question of, of how you shape your own perception, how 701 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,040 you experience hardship and how you, I think justify it to 702 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,440 yourself in the moment. Do you think you were good at 703 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,680 that on the track because you got it for the roads? 704 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,200 But like, is the track pain different you think? 705 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,760 I for me personally, there were just less opportunities I think 706 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,440 to leverage it on the track. I think that that the pain I 707 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:25,080 experienced on the track is highly dependent on, I think 708 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,760 physiological like top end speed basically. 709 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:32,680 And there's a depreciating opportunity to will yourself 710 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,480 faster when you're running. You know, like for example, I 711 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,520 couldn't will myself to win the 100 meters at the Olympics, 712 00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:41,280 right? Like I it's just not in the 713 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,080 cards for me. Whereas in the marathon this was 714 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:48,400 very appealing to me as it felt like if you would use ultra 715 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,080 running as like the extreme example of this, it's probably 716 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,560 the most will depended race that's available to me. 717 00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,200 It's definitely the most, I think that's in the Olympic 718 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:04,000 distances. And so I felt like because that 719 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,600 was a skill that I'd had, even if I was physiologically 720 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,760 similarly spect between the marathon and and the track, I 721 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,800 might be able to get a little bit more out of myself just 722 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,920 because, yeah, I think I like to endure things. 723 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:18,760 It's fun, people. Are probably listening to this 724 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,320 and getting to this point and feel like talk about Boston, 725 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,040 like I haven't heard anything about Boston yet. 726 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,320 So split the race up for me in terms of like, what were sort of 727 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,920 the key moments for you in terms of like how you wanted to 728 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,720 execute this thing? But then at the same time, when 729 00:40:33,720 --> 00:40:37,120 you look around it just sort of like, you know, Benson, Capruto 730 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,040 and John Career, the guys you'd probably look at to dictate this 731 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,720 race, they were just chilling, I think for the most part in the 732 00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:45,440 early parts of the race. Yep, and that was one of my 733 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,280 favorite things because I was chilling right next to them and 734 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:49,880 so. What, what did you pick up? 735 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:51,920 I guess from from like being right next to them like. 736 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,520 Oh, yeah, it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's a very cross country 737 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:57,720 experience. I think, you know, if you go all 738 00:40:57,720 --> 00:41:00,800 the way back to high school, I've been very calloused against 739 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:06,120 watching, you know, the guy that just got promoted off JV going 740 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,960 to the front of the race, you know, in a 5K and running a 59 741 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,080 second first 400. And I don't think that was like 742 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,280 this at all in Boston. But I do think that what I've 743 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,800 taken for my time as a cross country racer is, you know, if 744 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,040 you're next to the guy who won last year, you're probably in a 745 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,840 good spot. And there's some risks 746 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,840 associated, Like there's definitely an alternate universe 747 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,560 or maybe he wasn't coming in super fit, but he seemed very 748 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:35,760 confident and very well trained. And then I think the guy that 749 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,520 won New York was also right next to me. 750 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,760 And so it's kind of, I think a lot of averages more so than any 751 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,560 individual athlete. But I kind of just, I don't 752 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:51,560 know, it seemed like the four that went out to the front were 753 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,320 ahead, but they weren't pulling away. 754 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,640 And that's when I think that's you're kind of in a dangerous 755 00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,360 spot more so than than a spot to win a race. 756 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:05,080 The other thing was the marathon's just so long that I 757 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:09,360 feel, I feel like one that starts downhill and doesn't get 758 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:14,280 uphill until mile 17 is 1, where it probably would behoove me to 759 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,440 be a little bit more conservative in that that first 760 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,560 part, as long as I was still staying attached, right? 761 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,800 And so I think that's what was going through my head. 762 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,200 One of my favorite things too, coming from it was I think it 763 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:31,000 was about mile like 10 or 11. I was honestly just like, oh 764 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:32,520 man, I don't know if I could do this. 765 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:36,120 Like this is so fast. I mean, we're on like 2O2 pace. 766 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:40,880 And I didn't know because I just wasn't really checking the watch 767 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,360 through the 1st like half marathon. 768 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,840 I was just, I was aware we were sub 5 minute pace because that's 769 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:52,080 like the easiest math you can do is just like what's 5 times that 770 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,400 whatever mile we're at? And then I was like how we're 771 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,200 getting really far under what that's supposed to be. 772 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,320 And so I think I just wanted to stay attached. 773 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,880 I knew I didn't want to give up on anything until mile 17 774 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,200 because that's when the uphill started And I felt like even if 775 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,880 I was last place in the race, you know, who knows, maybe 776 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,680 everyone blows up at mile 17 and I can call a lot back. 777 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,560 Because I also saw that to place I was looking at 7th place is 778 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:23,920 like a good goal for myself because Clayton Young ran that 779 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,240 last year in like 61 and 66 to run two O 7. 780 00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:31,680 So I was like, whatever we're doing might just be complete BS 781 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,360 through this first half. And even if it feels really bad, 782 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:40,240 it might to get top ten, I just have to run a 66 second-half and 783 00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:43,960 I'll be golden, right. And so I was just, I was just 784 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,960 waiting for things to slow down and they just never did. 785 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,560 But at the same time, I never did either. 786 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:53,240 So there were I think there was one move I covered. 787 00:43:53,240 --> 00:43:54,800 I really wanted to be first American. 788 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:59,160 So I was chasing Talby pretty hard and there was one move 789 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,920 where I think we stretched out and and went past and dropped 790 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,560 the most of the four people that I think we're at the front. 791 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,680 And I covered the move and it just burned like hell. 792 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,200 Like it was like, don't do this again. 793 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,000 And so I got back up to them and I was like, well, if they do, 794 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:20,240 because I think it was like John career was gearing up like a 419 795 00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:24,600 and I was like, if they go again, do not go with it. 796 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,480 And you just need to run your own race. 797 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:31,880 And I caught up with them, ran for a little bit longer, and 798 00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:33,920 then he just ripped it on the hills. 799 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,680 And I was like, OK, we're going solo from here. 800 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:38,600 And I think I was in 9th or 10th this point. 801 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:43,240 And at that point it was literally like solo running, you 802 00:44:43,240 --> 00:44:48,120 know, maybe for like 130 second block you might go past someone 803 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:49,800 and then you're going to be back on your own again. 804 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,280 Yet the place is like just stayed put. 805 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,560 Nobody like responded to any moves. 806 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,640 Usually I think in all the races you do that are shorter, like 807 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,040 even if it gets strung out, people are going to try. 808 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,160 But I think everyone was just aware of how much further the 809 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,720 race had to go. So I was just kind of clipping 810 00:45:06,720 --> 00:45:10,880 past people until I think mile 23 or 24, there were two guys 811 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,800 together and I went right behind him and I was like, OK, I can 812 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:19,480 just draft, finish up this race and and keep my freshness over 813 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,040 the past couple miles. But I got behind him and it 814 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:23,960 just, I was like, I can run faster. 815 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,080 Like I was like, I got behind. I was like, this doesn't feel 816 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:30,680 that much better and I can run, I can PB if I just leave these 817 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,560 guys behind. So I went around, just kept 818 00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,080 marching and prayed that I didn't make like a stupid 819 00:45:36,240 --> 00:45:40,640 miscalculation of how much energy I had left and just try 820 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,920 to focus on my breathing, stay inside my internal experience 821 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,280 and not worry about, you know, things I couldn't control over 822 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,840 the rest of the race. And I think there was just a 823 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:51,920 point where I was like, either I'm really bad at math or I'm 824 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,560 going to run really, really, really fast. 825 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:58,560 And I think I made this just kind of deal in my head all the 826 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:03,040 way back to Mall 17 where I was like, if somebody comes soaring 827 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,400 past me, I'm just not going to worry about it. 828 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,600 I need to just run my own race from here and that'll be good 829 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,440 enough. And just nobody ended up coming 830 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:16,600 past me because I think I was just in a really smooth state 831 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,640 where I was measuring out my my energy levels well. 832 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,200 And I think that's honestly what marathoning is all about. 833 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,520 I didn't get to practice it at New York at all because I ran 834 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,200 with people the whole way. But that's probably the most 835 00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,200 exciting. That's probably the most 836 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:34,440 exciting take away for me coming out of this races knowing that I 837 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:39,560 ran 9 something miles pretty much completely alone and I was 838 00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:43,920 able to do it in a way that, you know, was, I think, you know, 839 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,160 probably record-breaking in in some regards. 840 00:46:46,720 --> 00:46:51,120 Over the last 48 hours or 24 hours, I guess like I've been 841 00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:55,160 diving deep into, I talked to the Morton team, I talked to the 842 00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,520 Santa Marta team that fueled like Cajelcha. 843 00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:02,080 And so I've gotten like just all of these different approaches 844 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,240 that these fuel plans that everyone put together on race 845 00:47:05,240 --> 00:47:09,520 day during the actual race, like how much they're actually taking 846 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:11,600 and how many sips of the bottle before they toss it. 847 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:16,320 Like we don't have the exact sort of data on just like how 848 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,240 many carbs and all that someone ultimately ends up taking. 849 00:47:19,240 --> 00:47:22,280 But you can train for it. You can target a certain amount. 850 00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,680 So for you, I guess like on the fueling side of things, if we're 851 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,520 going to point to the different elements that helped probably 852 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,720 lead to such a fast time, like how dialed in is your fueling 853 00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:36,080 plan? Oh yeah, I mean, it was super 854 00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,760 dialed. And I'd say like for the three 855 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,600 to four weeks in the lead up to the race, I was extremely 856 00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:45,680 intentional about my feeling. And that's another vein. 857 00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,320 You know, we talked about mining out more performance that I 858 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,360 definitely want to dig into because I think it's just very 859 00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,400 new. And so people are still figuring 860 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,000 out what works best. And I'm still figuring it out 861 00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,840 too, obviously. But when it came to the actual 862 00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:05,200 race, I was drinking 1/2 of Morton 3:20 every 5 kilometers 863 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,720 mixed into 250 milliliters of water. 864 00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:15,280 So that's 8 bottles and bottle 5 was half a Morton 100 caffeine, 865 00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:19,440 so probably 50. It was probably half to 75% of 866 00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:20,760 it when I made it the night before. 867 00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:24,560 And that one I think, I'm actually not sure how many carbs 868 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,880 are in that, but I think it's similar to the 3:20. 869 00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:30,800 So it's probably around 40 grams of carbs at each 5K. 870 00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:37,360 And I didn't do any gels this time, so it was like purely 871 00:48:37,720 --> 00:48:40,880 liquid. I'm really glad it was too, 872 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,400 because we're running so fast. I don't know if I'd have time to 873 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,040 pull those gels off. I mean, some of those water 874 00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:49,640 breaks early on were just like chaos. 875 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:56,160 And so yeah, that was kind of the the plan I went with. 876 00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,120 And very similar to New York. I think I'm just getting better 877 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,440 at making the bottles so they're a little less hiccups. 878 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,240 Like one of them one time the gel got stuck at the bottom so I 879 00:49:04,240 --> 00:49:06,400 couldn't drink out of it. And I figured out like, 880 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,120 sometimes you just got to RIP the cap off and throw it back 881 00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,400 instead of trying to use the straw every single time. 882 00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,200 And so, yeah, it's just one of those things where where I'll 883 00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:20,520 probably keep messing with it in training and if I notice 884 00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:22,720 anything different or maybe I can increase my tolerance. 885 00:49:22,720 --> 00:49:27,480 And I did look at Coachella's plan as well, and there are a 886 00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:30,400 lot of fascinating things in there that I'd be interested in 887 00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:32,520 trying to like. I think they use like tart 888 00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:36,600 cherry juice or something. But yeah, I think that's one of 889 00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,680 the most fun things about it too, because it's just makes me 890 00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:41,440 feel like a like a Formula One car. 891 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,080 And The thing is, it's sort of with with that, it's like the 892 00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:47,560 cars changed constantly. There's a bunch of different 893 00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:53,560 factors that the F1 comparison is, is is a good one going into 894 00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:56,120 to your training. We I think did a roundup a 895 00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,920 couple weeks out of like all these long runs that people were 896 00:49:59,920 --> 00:50:02,600 posting up and like you had a couple impressive ones all 897 00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,320 throughout this block. What is it about the the long 898 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,160 run that I guess, or what are you trying to get out of these 899 00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,520 long runs? And when we see them on Strava, 900 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:13,480 OK, explain the heart rate thing to us. 901 00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:14,280 Like it? What's up? 902 00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:17,920 I don't know. I mean, I, I, it's funny, I've 903 00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:22,120 never been, I think I'm a hyper analytical athlete, but I don't 904 00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:25,120 think I analyze always the same things that that other athletes 905 00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:29,000 do. And so honestly with the heart, 906 00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:33,160 like I mostly just laugh about the comments I get over it. 907 00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:37,720 Like I don't tend to really like pour over that data necessarily, 908 00:50:37,720 --> 00:50:40,600 probably just because I don't think risk based heart rate 909 00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:45,560 tends to be all that accurate. I think the other thing is I, 910 00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,600 from a training perspective, I mostly I would say I'm like a 911 00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:51,360 dog with a stick with my coaches. 912 00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,240 If they want me to wear a sensor, if they need some kind 913 00:50:54,240 --> 00:50:56,440 of information, they will 100% get it. 914 00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,080 We've used like Moxie sensor, stuff like that. 915 00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:03,720 But heart rate data, I don't think we've really dug into all 916 00:51:03,720 --> 00:51:08,360 that much. And so, yeah, I think there's 917 00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,000 two ways I think about it. I think if an athlete has a 918 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,920 really good sense of their body that it's not necessarily 919 00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:19,800 necessary, but maybe if you're still developing that sense and 920 00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:24,040 you want to kind of figure out how to ride the line, then 921 00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:25,520 that's when the data is most helpful. 922 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,160 And and so I think that's what I always try to recommend is, you 923 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,240 know, it's kind of like data is for glancing, not for staring. 924 00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:37,200 And yeah, I think that it really, I've gotten a really 925 00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,400 good handle on kind of how these workouts feel, how they're 926 00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,480 supposed to feel, how to train effectively, not just hard, 927 00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:47,000 right? And so All in all, yeah, I think 928 00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:49,760 I have my own internal experience of how each workout 929 00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:53,280 goes and how it feels. And I think it's really funny 1 930 00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:56,960 people try to get that out of out of the heart rate because 931 00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:59,600 that's not really what I use. So what, what do you get out of 932 00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:01,560 these, these long runs or what do you really like? 933 00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:03,320 Because like, when we look at sort of your training, it's like 934 00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:07,320 that's the ultimate sign when we see, you know, oh, Charles is 935 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,560 really good at the marathon. Like, it makes sense because of 936 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:10,320 these. Yeah. 937 00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:12,680 Every it's, it's kind of, I think just like a minimum 938 00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:15,240 requirement is if you're going to be able to race these 939 00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:17,920 distances, you have to be able to put together some of those 940 00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:20,400 training sessions. Because I think, I mean, again, 941 00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,960 this is I'm a very coached athlete. 942 00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:26,800 I don't tend to, to ever really recommend training or anything. 943 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,160 But obviously I have my own opinions on on why it's it's 944 00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:32,640 useful. But I think my thoughts on the 945 00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:36,760 long run would be that it's the closest way to simulate the 946 00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,760 marathon, obviously in a safe, controlled environment. 947 00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,160 So you're just trying to reduce, I think, the overall wear and 948 00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,560 tear on the body while still making sure that the body knows 949 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,720 it needs to be able to hit those paces over those kinds of long 950 00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:52,320 runs. But you don't go out there and 951 00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,320 hammer like 5 minute pace for 20 something miles. 952 00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:59,480 It's about, I think, shifting gears while the rest of the 953 00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:03,520 week's training is kind of hammering in your legs already. 954 00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,440 And so if anything, I think it's just a way to keep yourself 955 00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,760 physiologically accountable to the distance and basically 956 00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:13,640 telling your body that, you know, even though we're doing 957 00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:15,560 all these workouts in the middle of the week, you're still going 958 00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:19,960 to be needing to apply it to an event where the volume is. 959 00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:24,240 Is that significant? And so, yeah, I think there's 960 00:53:24,240 --> 00:53:25,280 two ways to think about training. 961 00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:28,080 You can think about the numerical measurable aspects of 962 00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:29,120 it. And you can also think about 963 00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:33,600 almost a verbal negotiation with your body where where you're 964 00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,360 politely informing of it of what it is going to need to do. 965 00:53:37,720 --> 00:53:40,360 And so I think that's what the long run does is it's, it's 966 00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,120 almost like giving your body notice that these are going to 967 00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:48,120 be 20 plus mile races. We touched on fuelling the 968 00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:52,840 training, the shoes, I guess like Nikes teasing out, I guess 969 00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:57,800 the next iteration of the vapor fly, alpha fly, what you had on 970 00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:02,120 just sort of nothing's out. I think like publicly about it 971 00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:05,000 just yet. But I guess like what did you 972 00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:09,120 sort of find over the last year or so, like testing out the 973 00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:13,400 variety of super shoes, I guess that made this one work for you 974 00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:17,800 in particular? Yeah, I would say, I think, you 975 00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:22,480 know, we obviously always have a choice as athletes, but I think 976 00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,320 I really just liked the lightness of the shoe I was 977 00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:26,680 given. I actually don't know what I can 978 00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:30,880 say about it, but basically it just felt hyper efficient 979 00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:36,920 relative to the three. And I think that in the marathon 980 00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:41,520 that's everything. I think you need every percent 981 00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:46,560 you can get just for whatever you can throw those percents at. 982 00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,600 So if your shoes significantly lighter than that's just 983 00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:52,880 muscular damage that you can use to take the downhills better or 984 00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,680 maybe power the uphills better. And so, yeah, I just felt like a 985 00:54:56,720 --> 00:54:59,320 more efficient shoe than I'd ever worn before. 986 00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:04,280 And I think that, you know, I was also maybe a little bit 987 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:07,760 bothered that I'd gotten a chance to to try them at the 988 00:55:08,240 --> 00:55:13,560 half in, in Atlanta and I didn't maybe give the shoes as good of 989 00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:17,320 a of a optical moment as I was able to in Boston. 990 00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:21,680 So yeah, I think I wanted, I think I wanted to show that, you 991 00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,080 know, I actually really did like the shoe and that that they are 992 00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,120 capable of of giving me a good day. 993 00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:29,240 Yeah. I think they overall had a big 994 00:55:29,240 --> 00:55:31,800 redemption moment in Boston because I guess we saw that 995 00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,480 performance in Atlanta. We saw Grant, I think also 996 00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:38,480 wearing them in New York and he didn't have his best day at the 997 00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:43,000 NYC half and led to Kyle Murray, I think, throwing out this 998 00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:47,480 theory that black shoes are famously slower than white 999 00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:51,680 shoes, and then you go out and dispel that whole entire theory. 1000 00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:56,080 Or there's more in the bank, you know, we'll find out. 1001 00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:03,080 When you cross the finish line and see, you know two O 435, 1002 00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:07,320 what was your reaction? I mean, I'd started to piece it 1003 00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:11,640 together, really. I would say in that last mile 1004 00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:15,000 was when I was very aware that something crazy was going to 1005 00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:17,120 happen, but I still thought it was two O 5 something. 1006 00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:19,920 I don't know why until the end. I think it just didn't make any 1007 00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,680 sense, right? I think in your mind you always 1008 00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:24,560 have. I think the phrase in psychology 1009 00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:27,440 is anchoring an adjustment. And when you have an anchoring 1010 00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:30,080 idea, it's really hard to adjust away from it. 1011 00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:33,160 So if I thought that, you know, I would have thought two O 6 1012 00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,320 would be a phenomenal day for me. 1013 00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:38,080 And so I think I could only get so far away from that in my head 1014 00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:42,320 before it stopped making sense. And so, yeah, that home stretch, 1015 00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:44,240 there was just really nothing like you. 1016 00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:46,320 I mean, there's so many clocks all around it. 1017 00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,560 And I was like, wait, I mean, I saw two O 3. 1018 00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:52,080 And never in my mind did I think I was going to run 2O3. 1019 00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:55,680 But I was like, the finish line is far away, but it's not that 1020 00:56:55,680 --> 00:57:00,360 far, you know, like it's not as far as that clock would imply it 1021 00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,560 is. And so I just kind of tried to 1022 00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:05,080 keep on my legs in those last 100 meters. 1023 00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:08,400 In a marathon, you're really trying to just stay upright 1024 00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:10,880 sometimes. And I think that that. 1025 00:57:11,720 --> 00:57:15,920 Yeah, it was just, it was just kind of one of those moments 1026 00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:19,160 that you never forget. And I kind of just my main 1027 00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:23,360 thought was like just get to the line and make it real basically. 1028 00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:25,720 You're still learning the marathon. 1029 00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:29,360 This is only your second one. What do you think Boston taught 1030 00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:33,280 you that New York couldn't? I think Boston taught me what 1031 00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:35,960 New York implied, which was that I could be a little bit more 1032 00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,840 aggressive and it would be OK. I think because the distance was 1033 00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:42,800 so long and my first time, I wanted to, you know, I wanted to 1034 00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,800 to walk away with New York with just belief that that I could be 1035 00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:50,560 here and that I I could belong. And I got more than I was 1036 00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:53,320 bargaining for out of that race. But I still felt like there were 1037 00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:55,840 some surges that that I could have tried to cover and maybe 1038 00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:57,920 figure out whether or not I could do even better. 1039 00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:00,880 And that's why I was bringing into Boston was like, can I 1040 00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,400 validate that hypothesis basically in. 1041 00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,240 So I think what I really walk away with this from is that that 1042 00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:10,160 we were correct in our assumption that there there is 1043 00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:14,240 more there and exactly how much more there is from here is just 1044 00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:17,080 what I'm excited to find out. And honestly, I'm excited for my 1045 00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:22,320 actions to now shape what I'm capable of with this updated 1046 00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:25,720 knowledge of of what I already was capable of that I had had no 1047 00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,120 clue existed. The hard part over the next 1048 00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:31,960 couple months as people learn to kind of process what these 1049 00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:35,600 Boston results ultimately mean for the next one and, and for 1050 00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:38,400 training. Like, did you think that in the 1051 00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,560 lead up to this you were training like a 2O four guy and 1052 00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:45,640 then now you're for your next marathon build you have to train 1053 00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:50,120 like a 2O four guy? I would say that that's the most 1054 00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:54,240 important thing for me to take away from a race like this is I 1055 00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:58,080 wouldn't say that that, I mean, obviously my head going into 1056 00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:01,160 Boston, I wasn't thinking that I was training like a 2O four guy 1057 00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:04,520 at all. But I think it was mostly just 1058 00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:08,560 because that'd be kind of a crazy thing to assume at the 1059 00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:11,240 time. And and it just, I don't know, I 1060 00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:14,720 try to always be confident, but based on, you know, like real 1061 00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:16,560 data, right? Like that's the difference 1062 00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:18,920 between arrogance and confidence is evidence. 1063 00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:23,720 And so I think that that the greatest thing this race could 1064 00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:27,720 do for me is make it not egotistical or irrational to 1065 00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:33,360 have some of these thoughts and to now apply that perspective to 1066 00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:36,720 my training without, I think some of those nagging. 1067 00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:41,800 I don't know, insecurities isn't the right word, but but just the 1068 00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:44,560 idea that, OK, what if I can't handle this right? 1069 00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:47,720 Like now I can train like a 2O four guy and even coming off New 1070 00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:50,760 York, I was like, OK, I can train like a top ten guy and a 1071 00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:55,160 major. Now I can I can dive into that 1072 00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:57,520 level of training that I know Jerry is going to bring 1073 00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:00,840 regardless with the confidence that's like, I've already been 1074 01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:02,680 there. Where can I now go? 1075 01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:06,360 And I think that's always the most exciting thing about any 1076 01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:09,160 positive race. Is you got to kind of redefine 1077 01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:11,320 what's possible, but most importantly, I think what's 1078 01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:13,720 rational. What do you want to get out of 1079 01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:17,280 these next couple cracks that you have at the marathon before 1080 01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:19,160 the trials? We're less than two years away, 1081 01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:24,240 so presumably you got at least two more attempts at it, maybe 1082 01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:26,000 three. I guess like if you squeeze one 1083 01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:30,760 in in September of of next year, what do you think? 1084 01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:35,960 You need to be fully prepared in Phoenix or Saint Louis, wherever 1085 01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:38,640 it ends up being. Honest truth, I think from here 1086 01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:40,720 it's just it's going to be training dependent more than 1087 01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,280 racing. I think that's one of the best 1088 01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:47,240 things that the cherry blossom gave us was early validation and 1089 01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:50,360 and we got earlier more intense validation than we ever could 1090 01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:53,320 have dreamed of, right. And so we're no longer using 1091 01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:56,320 races. I think is a is a metric for 1092 01:00:56,680 --> 01:01:00,480 what's possible or, or what we need to do or what we're capable 1093 01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:02,600 of. I think we now know what we're 1094 01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:04,640 capable of. And so now we just need to train 1095 01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:07,600 accordingly. So honestly, the races will just 1096 01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:10,120 be kind of the way I always describe them, which is just a 1097 01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:13,640 peek behind the curtain, right? Like, but what's most important 1098 01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:15,680 is what what we're going to be getting after. 1099 01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:18,880 And I think everyone's locked in on the same goal right now, 1100 01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:22,880 which is just volume, right? And so I think, you know, as an 1101 01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:26,880 athlete, you kind of have your workouts, you kind of have your 1102 01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:29,160 volume. And then there is an element of 1103 01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:32,000 of talent, I think as well that goes into it. 1104 01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,640 And then kind of the fourth thing is your training 1105 01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:36,720 situation. And then it comes down to 1106 01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:39,240 coaching. And so those all those five 1107 01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:43,840 elements I think come together for whatever you're going to 1108 01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:46,680 bring into the trials. And so every single one of us is 1109 01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:49,000 going to be trying to get the most out of each of those 1110 01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:52,880 aspects from here to to wherever that's going to be. 1111 01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:57,000 I don't think anyone even knows. And so, yeah, I'll think you're 1112 01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:00,680 thinking way more about kind of like how much can I develop 1113 01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:04,680 myself as an athlete to get to to that start line ready to go. 1114 01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:08,160 And I think the race is the best part is it's probably more just 1115 01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:11,960 going to be like the fact that I have so much love for this sport 1116 01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:15,240 and want to go out there and and run every major at this point. 1117 01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:19,200 You have such a good decision to make ahead of you for this fall 1118 01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:21,880 because it's like Nike athlete, Nike race. 1119 01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:25,040 You got the Chicago Marathon, an opportunity to go pretty fast. 1120 01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:29,440 At that point, you are eligible to hold the American record if 1121 01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:33,840 you want to go for that or you return to New York. 1122 01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:38,400 And what you described earlier is just sort of like you thrive 1123 01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:41,440 off of just competing a guy against the guys around you. 1124 01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:44,440 Now, you couple that with the confidence you take from Boston, 1125 01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:47,760 it's like you could look at you. I mean, you could think about, 1126 01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:51,360 you know, the podium there like more realistically than you did 1127 01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:53,960 a year ago. So like as of right now, does 1128 01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:55,680 one or the other excite you a little bit more? 1129 01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:59,560 That's a great question. Honestly, I think like it will 1130 01:02:59,560 --> 01:03:02,600 come down to to meeting with my coaches, you know, maybe even 1131 01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:04,520 talking to my agent as well about it. 1132 01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:08,920 But I think that that what's been working for us is picking 1133 01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:12,560 the most performance optimal decision and running with that 1134 01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:14,680 regardless of of any other factors. 1135 01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:17,960 And so I think honestly, it'd be a conversation with each race 1136 01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:21,120 too, about what that weekend might look like. 1137 01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:25,200 I think, you know, Jerry's pretty famous or infamous for 1138 01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:27,920 making sure that his athletes are in the best possible 1139 01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:31,480 situation competitively. And, and I think that that's 1140 01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:34,840 what I really value heading in. And so there's there's so much 1141 01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:38,360 more nuance to these races because I think that that 1142 01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:42,120 they're such big productions. There's so many different ways 1143 01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:44,280 that that I think the weekend can go. 1144 01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:48,800 And so I think that that we're going to think about what race 1145 01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:50,840 you want to do, obviously primarily what we want to get 1146 01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:53,960 out of it, how much experience and what type of experience we 1147 01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:58,360 want. And then, yeah, it's going to be 1148 01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:01,600 it's, it's different because Boston, you don't really think 1149 01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:04,040 about it this way. And New York, I think it was 1150 01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:05,520 pretty set in stone we wanted to do. 1151 01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:09,280 But honestly, I'd say it's it's relatively open. 1152 01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:13,840 I think I know what I want to do deep down, but I haven't talked 1153 01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:16,280 it through with Jerry yet and so I don't want, I don't want a 1154 01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:21,080 ball to roll too far away before before it's validated by HQ. 1155 01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:23,560 How much of this bill did you do at altitude, now that I think 1156 01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:25,800 about it? So it was entirely simulated 1157 01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:29,600 altitude, this bill. And so everything, every 1158 01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:32,840 altitude except for the plane flight and the layover in Denver 1159 01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:35,720 breath that I took was was simulated. 1160 01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:40,960 And that's honestly something I'm I'm curious about training 1161 01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:47,440 wise, iterating, looking at it was an incredible, I think it, 1162 01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:51,320 it is an incredible tool. And and I think we've taken it, 1163 01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:55,160 we've leveraged it about as well as you humanly possibly could. 1164 01:04:55,480 --> 01:05:00,360 But I am curious as the mileage increases, maybe there's there's 1165 01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:03,760 some things to play with their based on what's been working 1166 01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:06,440 really well for I think some of these super high level athletes. 1167 01:05:06,920 --> 01:05:09,200 Well now I'm looking at just sort of and thinking of the all 1168 01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:12,080 time list. You might be the fastest 1169 01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:16,920 marathon by someone who spent the whole training block not at 1170 01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:18,920 altitude. Yeah, technically, yeah, 1171 01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:20,640 exactly. It's got to be. 1172 01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:25,120 It's got to be up there and. None of the guys, I think all 1173 01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:29,480 the guys ahead of you in Boston were at altitude at some point 1174 01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:32,920 in their build up because they're either based in Kenya, 1175 01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:37,160 Ethiopia, Zuhair's out in Colorado, Tabello's out in 1176 01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:38,720 Flagstaff I think for the most part. 1177 01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:44,880 And so the guys ahead of you in Boston, all at altitude, guys in 1178 01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:48,800 London, I presume most of them basically East Africa. 1179 01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:52,000 So you may have set a world record for someone who is not. 1180 01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:54,160 Base it out. Yeah, we gotta, we gotta, we 1181 01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:57,600 gotta get Guinness involved. And so, yeah, I think that's, 1182 01:05:57,640 --> 01:06:01,160 that's really the excitement again, about being on a unsolved 1183 01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:03,760 frontier is that there's so many different approaches. 1184 01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:07,200 The thought of it is getting to try everything and and see what 1185 01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:08,960 sticks. And so I also think that's just 1186 01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:12,200 the best advantage of, of being at a younger age is you have 1187 01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:17,080 more possibilities, you can experiment with more things to 1188 01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:19,280 see what's correct and you can also afford to make a couple 1189 01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:22,800 more mistakes. And so I think that that that's 1190 01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:26,400 something definitely worth looking at considering iterating 1191 01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:30,800 on, but it'll come down to to what, which Jerry and I think is 1192 01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:34,560 is best for the future. And I know that that he's always 1193 01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:37,800 going to going to work with me to figure out, you know, how can 1194 01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:41,040 we attack this and, and how can we become the best athletes 1195 01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:43,560 possible? When does Jerry want you back at 1196 01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:44,040 practice? It's. 1197 01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:47,400 A great question. It's not always super defined. 1198 01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:51,800 I think he and I will will meet face to face 1st and just kind 1199 01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:54,680 of map things out and, and look at honestly, I think our racing 1200 01:06:54,680 --> 01:06:58,680 schedule more than anything. But the truth is, I think one of 1201 01:06:58,680 --> 01:07:01,120 the most exciting things about our training situation is that 1202 01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:06,960 it's very, I would say he and I have a ton of trust in each 1203 01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:08,480 other. You know, I trust him as a coach 1204 01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:11,120 and he trusts that, that I'm going to take care of, of what I 1205 01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:14,360 need to do as an athlete. And so I think that he and I 1206 01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:18,680 operated in a, in a very exciting space where he and I 1207 01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:22,440 are able to collaborate super closely and, and I think kind of 1208 01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:25,880 make decisions together about what we think is, is for the 1209 01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:28,080 best. But he usually tends to to let 1210 01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:31,640 me kind of manage my own way back, so to speak. 1211 01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:35,320 And so I'll probably take like like a month or so to rebuild 1212 01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:40,080 mileage and just kind of unwind a little bit because when, when 1213 01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:43,760 Jerry asks you back, it's going to be full on until you cross 1214 01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:46,000 the finish line at whatever race you're building towards. 1215 01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:50,160 So I think yeah, we both, we both take this time to kind of 1216 01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:53,520 decompress a little bit so that we can really squeeze when we 1217 01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:55,200 get back. You kind of joked at the 1218 01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:58,000 beginning, it's like, oh, you couldn't pay me to do another. 1219 01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:04,200 Like it's, it's the marathon. But with Connor, like he dabbles 1220 01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:07,720 like on the track, like he'll step on the, you know, 10K at 1221 01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:09,480 the pre classic over the last couple years. 1222 01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:11,600 Is the door shut on the track for you? 1223 01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:15,640 I mean, I'd say if I got back on the track, it's either because 1224 01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:17,960 someone paid me or I got bored, you know? 1225 01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:19,840 And that's not a bad thing necessarily. 1226 01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:23,279 I I think as humans we get bored all the time and so it would be 1227 01:08:23,279 --> 01:08:26,279 more of like a curiosity thing. I think maybe just for fun. 1228 01:08:26,279 --> 01:08:31,640 I think the 10K is just not AI don't think they coexist in the 1229 01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:33,520 way that people might assume between the marathon. 1230 01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:38,920 I mean, you're really sprinting at you know, I mean, I think to 1231 01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:43,960 just just get sub 27 was like the fastest mile out of 26 that 1232 01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:46,439 career put down. I think he'd hit one, one or two 1233 01:08:46,439 --> 01:08:49,479 and maybe at like 419. And so I think it's just, 1234 01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:54,760 they're very different worlds. And I, I'm just, I think a 1235 01:08:54,760 --> 01:09:00,960 little bit too specked towards wanting to go all in on what I 1236 01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:03,640 think my best prospect is. And if I felt like there were 1237 01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:07,760 any, even half a fraction of a fraction of a percent that might 1238 01:09:08,359 --> 01:09:12,160 cost me to kind of try to stay in between both worlds, that I'm 1239 01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:14,560 always going to commit to what I think I have the best chance of 1240 01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:17,319 being competitive in. And so to me, it's just it's 1241 01:09:17,319 --> 01:09:19,600 kind of like a different sport in my head a little bit. 1242 01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:23,279 It's like I wouldn't jump in the swimming pool or, you know, get 1243 01:09:23,279 --> 01:09:25,560 on a bike. So I don't see why I get on the 1244 01:09:25,560 --> 01:09:27,120 track. But that's also just the way my 1245 01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:29,279 brain works. If Jerry told me it was, it 1246 01:09:29,279 --> 01:09:32,080 would help us run a little bit faster than then I could 1247 01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:33,760 definitely see it in the cards at some point. 1248 01:09:34,439 --> 01:09:36,200 All right, Nike, you hear him. He doesn't want to do the two 1249 01:09:36,200 --> 01:09:37,720 mile at the pre classic as much as. 1250 01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:42,200 This is just this is just posturing unless you pay me a 1251 01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:45,120 ton. Yeah, No, I, I think, yeah, like 1252 01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:48,520 I said, it's just in my heart of hearts, I'm not sure that it's, 1253 01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:51,520 it's what I think would be the most conducive. 1254 01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:54,800 I think that shorter Rd. races tend to be the best run in. 1255 01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:57,960 But I'm still young and I, I still got a lot to figure out. 1256 01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:00,400 And you know, maybe if people start doing it works really well 1257 01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:02,520 for them, then you never say never. 1258 01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:08,440 Well, Charles, you got us really excited with this two O 435 at 1259 01:10:08,440 --> 01:10:11,000 the Boston Marathon for what's to come next. 1260 01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:15,160 And so looking forward to seeing you back on the roads again soon 1261 01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:17,760 and then gearing up for another fall marathon. 1262 01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:23,600 But you've made the 2028 US Olympic Marathon Trials picture 1263 01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:26,680 a little bit more interesting, and everyone's already excited 1264 01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:28,320 for it. Awesome. 1265 01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:32,320 Yeah, no, I, I can't wait. And yeah, I'm just excited to 1266 01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:37,040 get back out there at some point and and just keep unwrapping the 1267 01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:39,960 layers on, on whatever my marathon crew is going to be. 1268 01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:43,680 Alright, that's a wrap on today's episode. 1269 01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:46,680 Thanks for listening, for the time, the curiosity, and for 1270 01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:49,400 making this show part of your routine or your run. 1271 01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:52,760 A big thanks to our producer Jasmine Fair and to everyone 1272 01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:55,760 behind the scenes who helps make the Sidious Mag Podcast happen. 1273 01:10:56,320 --> 01:10:58,200 You enjoyed today's episode. A quick five star review on 1274 01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:02,120 Apple Podcast or Spotify helps people find this show and we 1275 01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:03,960 read every single one. You can find 1276 01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:07,800 muchmoretrackandfieldcoverage@sidiousmag.com and you can follow along across 1277 01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:09,360 all of Sidious Mag social channels. 1278 01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:11,680 We'll see you next time. Thanks again for listening.