1 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,079 Jim Carr, welcome to Chewing It Over. 2 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,200 Now we've known each other a little while and I feel like I'm 3 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,880 willing to take a risk of getting a right hook or a scowl 4 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,120 by saying you are quite the weirdo. 5 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:30,800 And what I mean by that is you and EOS Active, technically you 6 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,560 sell products to MSK, you sell injections, right? 7 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:38,400 However, ever since I've known you, you've been averse to being 8 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:40,920 pigeonholed into, into that bracket. 9 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:45,280 And you see the industry much broader than that immediately, 10 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:47,240 even as an old clinician, which is fascinating. 11 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:49,720 So is that a fair characterization? 12 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:50,840 Are you going to punch me for it? 13 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:54,920 And and and if so, if I'm not far wrong, why is that? 14 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,720 Yeah. So I don't mind being called 15 00:00:58,720 --> 00:00:59,440 away. I don't. 16 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,560 I've been called a lot worse, especially in the industry. 17 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,480 I suppose I am in a way without thinking about it. 18 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:11,000 I've got an interesting background sort of 20 years in 19 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,040 the industry and a lot of that has been spent in distribution. 20 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,720 And when I first started in distribution in orthopaedics, 21 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,280 that was probably 12 years ago, you quite quickly realise you've 22 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,600 a bit misfitty in that area because you do you're not 23 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:26,560 attached to a manufacturing partner. 24 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:31,120 So you're not tied to a message. You can create your own message. 25 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:35,880 And I think going out on my own, especially in the last sort of 26 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:40,320 years, last six months specifically that that's been 27 00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:44,560 really the, the cool bit because I'm not bound by any particular 28 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,880 message. And, and it's just more 29 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,720 interesting to not be product focused and be message focused, 30 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,680 be what we're trying to do. And I think it's a little bit of 31 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,880 just getting all that wiser in, in life experiences as well of, 32 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,960 you know, you're drilling down into what's what's your why 33 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,200 without being a bit of a cliche, Why am I doing this? 34 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:05,720 What am I trying to achieve from this? 35 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,440 Would you see as being the key way of differentiating that 36 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,120 product versus message focus? Because you're quite right. 37 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,320 I think that's why I found it weird refreshing the way, by the 38 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,320 way, but it's mean like, yeah, I, I, I would have forgiven you 39 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,200 for, for getting into the details on the product more than 40 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,160 you do. But instinctively you move past 41 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:24,600 that as to what we're trying to achieve. 42 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,360 You almost see the patient in this far easier than most people 43 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:28,480 do when they're on the commercial side. 44 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,040 Usually it's the clinician that's pulling plane tug of war 45 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,640 with the sales Rep over that, you know, what's that mean for 46 00:02:33,640 --> 00:02:35,240 the patient. But you, you have that 47 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:36,280 centrally, like what? What? 48 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,880 So how do you, how do you frame that and, and why do you go that 49 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:40,400 way? Yeah. 50 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,560 It's, it's a good question and I probably haven't thought that 51 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:48,240 long and hard about it myself, but I think you naturally like 52 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,400 anything you do, you gravitate towards what you enjoy and what 53 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,200 you're good at. And again, you know, just over 54 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,840 that period of time throughout your career, you realise what 55 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:58,760 you do well and tends to be what you enjoy. 56 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,600 And for me that it's strategic marketing. 57 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,160 I enjoy strategic marketing and delivering it. 58 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,880 And that's a key, probably the most important part of being in 59 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:14,320 distribution. But within that then just the 60 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,400 MSK space, I kind of feel like I've found my area having been 61 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,800 orthopaedics and now you're working closer to the patient 62 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,760 and it's just a much more interesting conversation to talk 63 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,240 about, you know what, again, what, why are we trying to do 64 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:29,960 this? And when I'm, when I say 65 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,840 strategy, I'm not on about like a commercial strategy. 66 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,880 The link I find really interesting now with what I'm 67 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,000 doing is I build a distribution business and I try and build a 68 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,440 portfolio of products. There's no point in me doing 69 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,800 that if it doesn't mirror what your strategy is to treat a 70 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,320 patient well. Like you have to have a pathway. 71 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,400 You have to understand and clinicians do good clinicians 72 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,520 understand that this isn't just delivering an injection. 73 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,600 That's a small part. So that's why I think there's no 74 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,000 point of me focusing on that and saying this that Neil, about a 75 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:07,120 particular injection because we all know really at the heart of 76 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,960 it what that patient does after and before and what other 77 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,080 treatments they can have. And even saying treatment's 78 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,360 almost the wrong word, isn't it? For arthritis, No. 79 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:16,959 I get you. It's it's management. 80 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:19,800 Yeah, yeah, but but then still, it's funny because we don't want 81 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,079 to be too pedantic to suggest that treatment should be a dirty 82 00:04:22,079 --> 00:04:23,040 word. No, no, no. 83 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:24,680 I mean, so there are interventions. 84 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:26,560 And this is what's interesting. Someone, someone pushes the 85 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,280 plunger and on a product. And so that we're not pretending 86 00:04:29,280 --> 00:04:31,960 the product doesn't matter, but if it's not nested within an 87 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,240 appropriate care path, we're delivered by a competent 88 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,080 clinician. That's then the front end 89 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,920 reasoning to make it that, that makes it relevant and sensible, 90 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,200 but also that then has that that base level of competence to know 91 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,400 that that's the the wise thing to do and to do it safely. 92 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:46,960 These things matter. So that there are interventions, 93 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,280 treatments within management. But again, that's what's 94 00:04:50,280 --> 00:04:52,200 unusual. Is that your fair play, you want 95 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,760 to see it in that wider picture and you see that as an ethical 96 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:56,560 delivery right compared. To. 97 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,360 Just, you know, boxes of product of which if the, if the and this 98 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,960 is again, another thing that's unusual is that you're seeing 99 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:08,400 this in the long game and you're not wanting to like if if 100 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,360 someone's on the cusp of buying 5 and they buy 3 because that 101 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,280 was more appropriate, but you might then sell them ten that 102 00:05:14,280 --> 00:05:16,560 year. You just see it that way 103 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:18,880 straight out the gates. And again, for early, for early 104 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,040 adoptive, for for people coming into the game, I rarely see 105 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,840 that. It's, it's kind of you to say 106 00:05:24,840 --> 00:05:28,920 and it's, you know, it's nice to hear because it is that and 107 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:33,080 it's, that's the, that's the relationship with what I do that 108 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:38,040 I'm enjoying talking to clinicians about because it's a 109 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,800 really interesting dynamic. I'm trying to build a business 110 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,760 and that's new to me. I'm trying to use all my skill 111 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,400 set that I've got before and my knowledge and what I'm trying to 112 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:47,880 do. And I'm doing it in the way I 113 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:49,200 think best as you've just described. 114 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,080 But that's not that dissimilar to what a lot of my customers 115 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:54,720 are trying to do with their private practice, right. 116 00:05:54,840 --> 00:05:59,000 And my strategic approach isn't that the similar to how you 117 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,920 build a pathway And my skill set is, is doing that. 118 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:08,920 That's my experience. So how can I leverage and use 119 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,040 what I've got to benefit my customers? 120 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:15,720 And it's not talking about molecular weight per SE, like 121 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:17,480 the clinical data does that already. 122 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,240 But what, how can I help you position that and that pathway? 123 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,720 Because that's what I'm good at, you know, for doing so myself. 124 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:25,240 But that's what my experience is in. 125 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:27,600 So how can I put something together? 126 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:31,840 How can I make almost like a package that talks about the 127 00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:35,240 whole message? Because, you know, people like 128 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:36,400 yourself, you're a little bit different. 129 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:37,680 You're probably a bit weird as well in your. 130 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,200 Well, yeah, absolutely. The majority of people I talked 131 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,760 to excellent clinicians, but they don't they haven't done any 132 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:45,520 training in marketing. They haven't done any training 133 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,640 in strategic planning of that longevity. 134 00:06:49,280 --> 00:06:53,120 And I know that to have longevity, you have to have that 135 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,440 long term vision, that long term strategy. 136 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,960 And how I try and put that across with my products is think 137 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:02,360 about this as a long term. Goal and understand yeah, you're 138 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:04,000 right. And people get detached from 139 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,280 they kind of understand how their clinical style might be 140 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:09,320 part of their brand, but they don't necessarily know where 141 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,560 that is only a bit of it rather than all of it. 142 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,320 And so, you know, I really like the fact that you're feeling 143 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,600 like a kinship and an empathy with clinic bonus because of the 144 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,080 size and scale of what you're trying to achieve with them, not 145 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,080 not for them. I love that. 146 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,120 One of the things I couldn't help but really tap into and 147 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,280 I've always really enjoyed about our private conversations is 148 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:32,040 that that you are an adjacent outsider coming in feeling like 149 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:34,800 you're enjoying the MSK space background in other pitch. 150 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:35,840 You can tell us a little bit about that. 151 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:37,280 I think that's useful and relevant. 152 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,920 But what is it you feel that we're potentially getting wrong 153 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,080 because you clearly have got this fondness for the MSK 154 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:45,960 industry. But also part of that fondness 155 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:47,920 seems to be that you want to give us a bit of a shake and 156 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:49,400 say, you know, you're making some mistakes here. 157 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,160 So tell us a bit about link your background, but also then what 158 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,320 do you feel is that is the wrongdoing in the in the 159 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:56,680 commercial side? Yeah. 160 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:58,920 So, yeah. So that's a really interesting 161 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,040 question as well. How do I put that across? 162 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,400 I think again, it comes from with where I am now in my career 163 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:10,440 and speaking to the MSK space, I feel like I have more to offer 164 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,440 than I ever have and it's a more malleable conversation. 165 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,560 I, I think I can influence the right word. 166 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,200 I can help or I can, you know, what I've got in my head and 167 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,640 what I've learned in the past with within MSKI think I can 168 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,120 offer a lot more. I was learning my trade before 169 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:31,640 and you know, I'm 45 year old now when I was 35 year old, and 170 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:33,720 it might have just been total imposter syndrome, But talking 171 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,320 to an orthopaedic surgeon who was 10 years in his career about 172 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,520 how he can change his practice. And that was a lot more of a 173 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:42,640 product sell because you're not as close to the patient on that 174 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,680 conversation. Probably didn't get the same 175 00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:49,480 satisfaction because it's a much tougher conversation. 176 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:50,880 It's a hard environment to be in. 177 00:08:51,680 --> 00:08:54,920 What was it that you felt awkward about with that power 178 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:56,440 dynamic? Is it or? 179 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:58,040 Probably a little bit of power dynamic. 180 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,920 You know, I'm definitely not being negative about orthopaedic 181 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:01,680 surgeons. It talks. 182 00:09:01,680 --> 00:09:03,560 I love, loved working with them and still do. 183 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,120 Of course, it's still part of what I do, but it is a very 184 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,240 different dynamic. And even talking about 185 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,720 injections to an orthopaedic surgeon is a, is a different way 186 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:18,280 of talking and talking to people like yourself in the MSK space. 187 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:24,320 And like I say, it's, it's a bit more of a you guys, I think 188 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,400 running your private practically different as well. 189 00:09:26,680 --> 00:09:29,920 You know, you're a bit more acutely aware of building your 190 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:31,440 business and building your clinic. 191 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,120 And I like that element to it because that's that's very in 192 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,200 line with where I am trying to build the OS active. 193 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,360 It's a good point because it is, it is very involved. 194 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,240 I think I underestimated the relevant differences between 195 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,640 building a clinic and building any other business and stuff. 196 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:47,880 I think there was times where it was useful for me, especially 197 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,080 because it was one of several things I was doing and building 198 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,600 meant that it was just like, well, yeah, it's got elements of 199 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:54,840 different, especially on the ethical side of what you're 200 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,320 trying to do compared to a shopkeeper or a hairdresser. 201 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,200 However, fundamentally, whereas actually when you start to the 202 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,560 longer you're in it and then you start to engage and nest it 203 00:10:03,560 --> 00:10:06,480 within a community as we have done here, you then realize that 204 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:08,800 actually, no, this is this is relevantly different than if I 205 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:10,080 ran a vape shop. It just is. 206 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,960 It just has to be. And you've seen that and also 207 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,320 you feel like you're noticing that across and don't want to 208 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,720 make you don't, you don't want to make any mistakes you're 209 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:21,920 witnessing, but also you want to lean into some of the strengths 210 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:23,080 of the clinics that you're on about. 211 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,600 Well, I think it's a really interesting dynamic in where I 212 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,280 take my hat off to, you know, people like yourself and people 213 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:32,520 setting up a clinic and running a clinic is it is a really 214 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:34,360 difficult dynamic because everyone needs to keep the 215 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:36,800 lights on, everyone needs to sell. 216 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,240 But that is still a bit of a scruffy word in healthcare. 217 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:43,560 It's a it's a hard 1 to get right. 218 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,560 And again, that comes down to my overall strategy of if I need to 219 00:10:47,560 --> 00:10:52,000 keep my messaging as clean and as pathway driven as possible, 220 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,200 because I think that is the key point for the clinic to 221 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,560 successfully build their brand for the long term. 222 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,400 It's a bit like, you know, you give a fisherman A fisherman, 223 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,200 you feed his family of a day, but teach him how to fish. 224 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,480 He's sort of for life. And and it's a little bit like 225 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,880 that. You can talk about a treatment 226 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,000 and the odd patient will get that treatment, but if you 227 00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:16,720 actually build a clinic with a brand and a pathway that's 228 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,280 sustainable, that's there for the long term, and I really 229 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,800 enjoy that. That gives me a buzz and if I 230 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,920 can play a small role in that, that that's great. 231 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,120 You know, but do you think through no fault of theirs 232 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,600 because I can really understand you're keen to make sure you're 233 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,440 not coming across as if you're an outsider then scrutinizing 234 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,480 things that you feel you can understand how they've happened. 235 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,360 However, is it that understandably clinic owners and 236 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,880 therapists are seeing sometimes things a bit too close and it's 237 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,600 like itemized diagnosis or treatments that are associated 238 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,520 to that and not necessarily always seeing that that wider 239 00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:56,360 view of of of all the timeline or what is it that you feel is 240 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,800 is different between what you feel the solution is and what 241 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,200 you feel your diagnosis of the the the. 242 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,200 Problem. Yeah, I don't think I know the 243 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,960 solution. I think and I don't, you know, 244 00:12:06,680 --> 00:12:10,280 it's very difficult for me to, to even see the full problem 245 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,320 because, you know, like I say, I think it's just a really tough 246 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,440 job and every patient that walks in your clinic has clearly got 247 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,480 different needs. So it's just having enough tools 248 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,640 and breadth to treat the variety of what you get through the 249 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:25,480 door. You know, you can't, not 250 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:26,960 everyone needs the same injection. 251 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:28,280 There has to be a variety of options. 252 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,560 Not everyone needs an injection. They need something else before 253 00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:32,760 that. How do you develop sort of the 254 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:34,520 prehab before that? How do you, you know, 255 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,120 physiotherapy after that type of treatment is probably more 256 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,600 important than what you've done in terms of the, the product 257 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:46,520 you've used. So I guess my, my role and my 258 00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:51,080 job in that, again, as a distributor is to look at the 259 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,920 market to be lucky enough to have some good contacts below 260 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,200 the time and, and understand what a good option looks like 261 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,200 and go, well, that makes sense to do that. 262 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:00,800 And now that makes sense as well. 263 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,120 And that actually puts a bit of a pathway together. 264 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,440 And that you might not like 3 of the things I've got, but one of 265 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,760 the things might fit for how you run your practice. 266 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,480 So I don't want to tell anybody what their pathway should be, 267 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,200 but hopefully I can have a conversation where there's 268 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,280 something in our pathway which might fit for what you're trying 269 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:18,720 to achieve here. So you're, yeah, you're 270 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,560 assessing their, their process and their practice and saying, 271 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,200 what do you do? And then asking why and trying 272 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,080 to understand how you, your, your products and services might 273 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,560 fit within that and, and offering that support so that 274 00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:32,160 they can feel like that's a partnership that isn't just 275 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,000 transactional in that, in that, in that product sense. 276 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,320 I will not be dragging you into deep water on the 277 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,280 pathophysiology of, of anything, I promise. 278 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,760 But always a good example. And you were the midwife of a 279 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,760 great conversation that we can link here between me and Bilal, 280 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,040 who came into our own studio and we had a great chat about 281 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:52,680 injectables. And so we can, we can link to 282 00:13:52,680 --> 00:13:55,120 that because I think that was a great point of reference. 283 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,760 But if I can ask what what you feel from your side on an on a 284 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:02,840 non clinical side as to what you feel good best practice pathway 285 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,120 management for something like, oh, it might look like just as a 286 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,680 general, general rule, because I know that you're making links 287 00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:10,440 beyond say injectables into bracing and that sort of stuff. 288 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,800 So I just wondered what you feel, just as an example that 289 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:16,360 might look like. So I think my view of it is 290 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,520 again, you've, you're in the private practice, you've you've, 291 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:21,800 you're trying to, you've got, you're doing the best for the 292 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:26,160 patient, but you have to have options because certain patients 293 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:27,680 will ask for things and you're not going to be able to 294 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:29,240 completely change their mind and things like that. 295 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:33,800 So I think there's a few things you can do obviously before you 296 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,680 get to an injection, for example, like sort of rehab, 297 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:40,720 prehab type of work. When you hit a brick wall, that 298 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,240 might be when an injection comes in, not before that point. 299 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,120 So I think you should be trying stuff like that before you get 300 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,960 to an injection. Yeah, I often describe it 301 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,800 despite best efforts. So it's like sometimes no matter 302 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,120 the the best rehab, even if you picked them up at the optimal 303 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,640 time, sometimes there are things that you need to do as as 304 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:02,160 adjuncts that that need to support that process in order 305 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,680 for you to go again. Even if Plan B looks a lot like 306 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:06,800 Plan A, but there's a moment in which something settles, 307 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:07,880 something back down. Exactly. 308 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,480 Exactly. And so the for an example in the 309 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,480 path here that we've put together is, is you know one of 310 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,440 the first things in terms of an actual product is cryotherapy. 311 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,640 Now again, you know, there's there's debate on cryotherapy. 312 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:22,160 I'm not going to tell you it's the best thing. 313 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:24,920 I think there's enough data to say this is quite a sensible 314 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,720 adjunct for the right patient. And that's an interesting area 315 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:30,880 because it can top and tail treatment, because total knee 316 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,960 replacement, it's a great option to reduce the amount of enzymes 317 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,880 you're going to be taking. So that was a sensible thing for 318 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,200 us to look at. We're working with Doctor Active 319 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,600 on that. It's just again, a good, solid 320 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,480 performing product, easy to use, easy for me to have that 321 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,640 conversation. And it might fit into your, your 322 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:49,640 own algorithm, your own pathway of treatment. 323 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,560 And then like you mentioned, we, we work with OSA, very lucky to 324 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,320 have that relationship. And what I like about the OSA 325 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,440 relationship is not, I don't speech that braces should be 326 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,600 done. I don't say injections are 327 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,720 better with a brace. There's a little bit of evidence 328 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,920 to say that might be the case. But I do know if I'm speaking to 329 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:10,920 people that run clinical practice that they get asked a 330 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:15,400 lot about a compression sleeve. And, and I know Instagram and 331 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,760 now we've talked about it, our feeds will probably be full of 332 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:19,760 all sorts of different compression sleeves that we've 333 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:20,440 never heard of. Thank. 334 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:22,000 You we should have turned the device. 335 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,400 Yeah. So, so if you have that patient 336 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,480 in your clinic and their health, then on getting something like 337 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:31,320 that, whether you believe in it or not, you know, you, I can 338 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,600 offer a trusted space almost to go. 339 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,600 Well, also has a really variable option and it's cost. 340 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,120 It's not, it's not going to RIP them off like they might get 341 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,040 done through Amazon or they might go and buy something 342 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,520 totally useless through Amazon, that sort of thing. 343 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,120 So I think it's options, it's sensible options. 344 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,320 It's from suppliers who have stood the test of time with good 345 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,000 solid products. I kind of, you know, I'm not 346 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,440 interested in bringing along the next big thing per say. 347 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,440 It has to have sort of been a solid. 348 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,000 Well, that's one of the things that's interesting. 349 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:05,920 And again, I like that, but also that's not typical in that 350 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,960 sometimes people are looking for that thing that then is super 351 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,720 unique, even though that uniqueness might be because 352 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,800 it's, it's, it's just unproven in every which way. 353 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,480 You have a natural threshold of which people need to cross, it 354 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,119 seems, before you're really giving them the the time of day. 355 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:22,480 And again, I like that about you. 356 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,680 I'm not, but again, it's unusual. 357 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:30,560 Has that how's that evolved? What because clinicians have a 358 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,720 different threshold, some of them far lower than I'd like 359 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,000 them to be, but for where treatments and interventions 360 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,240 become credible, even as adjuncts and and and that is an 361 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,760 ongoing professional debate. And I can understand from 362 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:46,960 clinicians as to why they calibrate that differently. 363 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:51,000 When it comes to non clinicians that are in our space, I 364 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,720 actually give far more room because they've not got that 365 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,640 evidential counterbalance necessarily of the same way. 366 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,320 What is it that set your standard there, and what is it 367 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:01,520 that's developed those instincts? 368 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,680 Over 20 years, especially in orthopaedics, seeing things come 369 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,200 and go right, right, right. Well. 370 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,240 That's and trends. That's and trends. 371 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,120 I spent a lot of time. Big chunk of my orthopaedic 372 00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:19,440 career was cartilage repair and regeneration techniques and I've 373 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,560 seen a lot of different things come and go within that space. 374 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:27,080 Some things are still around and you know, 10-15 year data at 375 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,960 sea, Natalicus common site implantation just being 376 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,000 published. I've seen up come up on LinkedIn 377 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,920 some, you know, the latest data on that and stuff. 378 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:37,280 That's great. It's still the test of time, but 379 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,320 there's a lot of things in between the last 20 years that 380 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,240 have just come and gone. So I think I've got a healthy 381 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,520 scepticism in that respect. I'm not adverse, as you know, 382 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:48,560 commercially bringing in something that's brand new. 383 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,960 If I think with you know what I understand, maybe getting some 384 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,280 feedback from trusted clinicians is do you think this is a good 385 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,840 idea? But it wouldn't just slot into 386 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,520 my pathway of what I want to say this is a pathway. 387 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:02,280 It would kind of sit as a separate. 388 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,200 What do you think of this? And be honest about, look, this 389 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,880 isn't proven, but in the right. If you have a patient which is 390 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,920 completely stuck, got something potentially that might help. 391 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,000 So it again, it's that being honest about what you've got, 392 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,240 not just throwing it in the mix. Yeah, I know. 393 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,000 I like that and I think it's there are several companies out 394 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,000 there that if they could find a way to have monetized or 395 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:28,680 productized selling horoscopes for lateral elbow pain it I'd be 396 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:30,760 I'd be opposing it, but I wouldn't be surprised 397 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:32,000 necessarily. Do you know what I mean? 398 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,320 And also they'd be in this awkward moment where they'd 399 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,320 throw their hands up and say, well, that's not for us to 400 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:38,520 decide. You're the clinicians. 401 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:40,040 You cannot use it if you don't want. 402 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,200 It's just a suite of products. You know, it's like, I don't 403 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:43,640 like that, don't like that style. 404 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,480 But I also just wouldn't be surprised. 405 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,240 Yeah, I'd be. So I'd be so alarmed if it'd be 406 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,120 so strange and and off brand for you guys to do that. 407 00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:54,880 And fair play for setting that bar and clearing it and holding 408 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:56,400 that, holding those debates as well. 409 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,240 One of the things that's interesting is of course we're 410 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,560 a, we're a sort of critique style show. 411 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,720 Where you literally bring yourself, your products and 412 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,440 colleagues over for interrogation under that that I 413 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,160 referenced before with Balal and it's just like, again, it's 414 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,800 refreshing and pleasing. What do you think that that just 415 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,840 links to wider clinic marketing, right? 416 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,520 So if you think about the way in which people you feel can and 417 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:25,200 need to better integrate their, we've mentioned branding before 418 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,640 marketing sales, all these things can be quite daunting for 419 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:30,800 clinicians who kind of want to zoom in on the knee sometimes, 420 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,840 right? What do you feel they can do? 421 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,080 And also where is it that you feel you're going in, in way of 422 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:38,920 supporting that? Yeah. 423 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,760 So yes, this is a really good point actually because it's 424 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,640 something that sort of gives me the ick a little bit with, with 425 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,200 certain products that have out there very well known, used in 426 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,640 big numbers and very expensive for patients, some of them. 427 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,680 And you know patients will give your testimony and call it a 428 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,560 miracle and that's fine. But how you use that as a 429 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:02,960 company is a responsibility there, right. 430 00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:06,800 And just because a patient said it doesn't mean you can then 431 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,520 rinse, repeat and put that everywhere. 432 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,960 And, and I, I do have a bit of, I just have a problem with that, 433 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,640 especially in the private sector, because people are 434 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,640 paying them their money. And, and it comes back to that, 435 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,920 you're building a brand. I think that's what people have 436 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:21,840 to be aware of. You're building your own brand 437 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:26,320 as a clinic you don't want and I see those headlines then being 438 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,560 used on their own website and I'm cringing, Alex, I'm like, 439 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,080 you're gonna you've got to set the expectation right for the 440 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,400 patient. There's no miracle cure with 441 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,920 managing arthritis. So, so just don't go there. 442 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:39,960 It's great. You've got a happy patient 443 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,640 testimony there, but don't put in the headline of stuff like 444 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,760 that or this is going to get rid of your pain straight away. 445 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,720 Or, you know, do you? Do you double? 446 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:53,480 Do you dabble with those conversations like with 447 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,280 clinicians? Like because because again, it's 448 00:21:56,360 --> 00:22:00,280 brave though, because I do, obviously, But then if for the 449 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,680 part of the reason I do is because that's one of my both as 450 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:05,880 a commentator, but also as a fellow clinician. 451 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,120 I've learned how to do it and I don't think I'm as 452 00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:12,880 confrontational as I used to be. But again, you must be more 453 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,560 vulnerable than I am to the what do you know question. 454 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,560 So you must. I'm not don't doubt you do it 455 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:23,960 thankfully, but your basically saying there's another way. 456 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,000 Is that the sort of way you're? Well, yeah. 457 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,200 So I think, and I couldn't really do that if I hadn't tried 458 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:29,640 to build a different way of doing. 459 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,960 So it is kind of. So if someone is doing that and 460 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,040 then it's it's, it's not a bad conversation for me to have 461 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:42,120 because I think it is just, again, it's be strategic about 462 00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:44,320 what you're doing. And, and, and most people I talk 463 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,520 to just say, well, we haven't got the time to do it. 464 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,880 We're just given what the company gives us and we use 465 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:50,680 that. Yeah. 466 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:55,720 But if you're taking a glossy flyer, which is commercially 467 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,880 minded, most companies, especially manufacturers, the 468 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:00,680 you know, it's just product focus. 469 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,520 Not, yeah, yeah, but be a bit in there about the patient. 470 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,000 What's going to do? Like you said, it's a quote. 471 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,720 It's a quote on a on a poster. It's a, it's a headline, right? 472 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:13,680 It's a it's a headline on on a glossy expensive flyer and that 473 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,000 by default starts to set your own brand. 474 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,840 If you're using that every day, you've got to be careful with 475 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,440 you know, that message that you're taking from a company can 476 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,440 become your message if you're not careful and it is 477 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,960 informative for the patient. But it's kind of narrow banded 478 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,440 because that company just wants you to definitely the patient to 479 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,960 just choose that option to come back under no doubt. 480 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,400 Yeah, I've seen one of the things that was a real light 481 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,680 bulb moment for me. I haven't told you about this, 482 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,800 but six months ago you were like forefront of my mind off a 483 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,640 random conversation that I'd seen on might have been like 484 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,440 Facebook or Reddit, something like that web. 485 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:55,000 And someone had been like asking a really cool question about 486 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,240 decor in their waiting room, right. 487 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:03,160 And in that conversation, it was then partly conversations about 488 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,840 furnishing and style and paint colours and that, and then part 489 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,960 of it was like what sort of things that would identify me as 490 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,360 an MSK clinic. And we, and then someone said, 491 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,160 well, you need something on the walls. 492 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,840 What we've done is, and then they, they mentioned the fact 493 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,800 that it's like brands will send you stuff, any products you use 494 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,280 and, and, and, and, and why someone would want a Theraband 495 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:24,680 poster on the wall, I don't know. 496 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,920 But there are definitely their particular favorite brand of, of 497 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,680 say Shockwave or injectable or whatever it might be. 498 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,240 That then starts to to be on there or they've got, you know, 499 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,160 all sorts of different therapies that might not be in that 500 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,760 clinic, but they refer on to with a cut and even even scan 501 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,040 centers and stuff like that, right. 502 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,640 And so they were just this, this list of people saying, this is 503 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,520 what I've done and this is what you could do too. 504 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,760 And the reason I immediately thought of that with you is you 505 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,160 took that mindset, which you can understand why it happens and 506 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,280 people are stuck for ideas, but you need something on the clinic 507 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,800 room wall. You would already at that point 508 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,520 when I was engaging with your stuff and realising that you'd 509 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,760 already started to weave in messaging based marketing and 510 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,880 supporting clinics with, yes, you're right, you'd probably 511 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,200 want to or might need to have something up or want something 512 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,800 up in an open notice board. You don't have to succumb to it 513 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,400 then being something that's totally adjacent or not even 514 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,000 attached to to your brand. And so tell me a bit about that. 515 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,400 Yeah, yeah. And then also what then you're 516 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,120 because you're taking that, that and, and, and moving further 517 00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:25,680 with it. Obviously that's some some stuff 518 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,120 I don't know yet yet know about. Yeah, yeah, you did. 519 00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:30,160 Right. So I've got no interest at all 520 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,680 in getting my company name on somebody's wall. 521 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,160 I've, you know, and I don't particularly think they should 522 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,080 be a product name on the wall. We've made those mistakes. 523 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,680 We needed to get stuff when we first started and produced 524 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:43,920 posters and stuff and it just didn't sit right. 525 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,920 And I just thought, well, how does that speak to the patient? 526 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:48,360 What does the patient need to be? 527 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,200 You don't need to go B to C as well. 528 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,040 Really, on that instance, you know you're not that injectable 529 00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:54,880 to the patient. Exactly, exactly. 530 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:59,600 So it's, it has to, it's pathway driven a bit more vanilla is, is 531 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,000 the way to describe it where it's, it's eye-catching, it's 532 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,600 nice, but it's, it's, it's about it's patient centric. 533 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,800 It doesn't, it's not promoting the product. 534 00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:12,320 So we for a while, but I think we've got, we've got better and 535 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:13,800 better at it. And I think we're at a place now 536 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,920 where we're really happy with our, our pieces. 537 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,840 We can give to clinics where we, we don't have the company name 538 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,600 ES acting on anything that we give out. 539 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,040 It's got nothing to do with ES Active because again, that's a 540 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,040 business to business that that doesn't do anything for the 541 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:32,080 clinic speaking to a patient. So we have a few generic Flyers, 542 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,200 which again, but they're not EOS active, they're under the name 543 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,120 Joint Pain Freedom. But then a hell of a lot of what 544 00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:41,520 we do is because we work, we try and work as closely as possible 545 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,520 as we bespoke it for the clinic. So that's their, their details 546 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:48,360 on their logo. Simple things like our folder D5 547 00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:50,280 booklets. It's a simple thing, but you 548 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,960 know, basically the only little bit of information about the 549 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,280 injected I think it might deliver is on the back. 550 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,280 It's about what is arthritis, what is kind of onic aspirin. 551 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,920 Literature so. Yeah, Yeah. 552 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,440 It's what what are you facing here and rather than you can 553 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,760 reduce your pain by this much hitting you straight away. 554 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:14,320 And then where where we've taken that further, which is kind of 555 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,040 new, we've soft launched it where we're sort of through 556 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,200 April going to be going for a lot more and launching it 557 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,920 probably is the website joinpayingfreedomjoinpayingfreedom.co.uk 558 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,200 is growing without a point. We can launch it, but it's going 559 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,560 to grow just information hub. So yes, some of the products 560 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,120 that sit within EOS active on there, but in as little a 561 00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:38,680 commercial way as I could make it informative. 562 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,560 But you know it's like anything, it's the same as a clinic one in 563 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,080 a practice. You have got to have a slight 564 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,000 commercial element in there. They keep the lights on. 565 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,960 Just in case you want it, I can reassure you that there's 566 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,200 absolutely no crime and you link into the things that you sell 567 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:53,520 yourself. You know, this is the thing 568 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,800 that's funny because you've got that squeamishness that you were 569 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,360 writing saying about the clinic origin. 570 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,640 It's funny. You shouldn't develop that from 571 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:01,720 us. There's things you can pick up 572 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,480 from clinicians, but don't let us catch up. 573 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,760 Don't let you catch that. But I do know what you mean. 574 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:07,240 And also needs to be. Clean it. 575 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,280 Seems a light touch, isn't it? It's a light, yeah. 576 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,080 Yeah, yeah, Dylan skills, right, you've got. 577 00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:15,440 It's a hard thing to have, but that's where it's going to be. 578 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,400 But also I think that that's what's interesting is that the 579 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,800 aftercare advice after often injections, yeah, it's 580 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:27,160 unbelievable just how broad and vague that has been writ large. 581 00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:29,560 Fair play. Nick Lividis and the team have 582 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,320 put together a a post injection that's going to be used in NHS 583 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,000 services and they've just recently called badged it, SAUM, 584 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,840 MSEP, etcetera. And it's a great little piece of 585 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,920 post thyroid injection. But it begged the question, why? 586 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:44,520 Why now? Do you know what I mean? 587 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,840 Like, to be honest, I'm just, I'm not saying like they should 588 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,000 have anyone else should have. I missed that trick. 589 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,560 There's no harm. It's just crazy. 590 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:53,840 You just don't know what you don't know. 591 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,200 You just miss stuff. And so the fact that there's 592 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,440 been massive disparate aftercare, even though the the 593 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,360 evidence has been supportive in certain ways, it's. 594 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:02,360 Weird. It's crazy. 595 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,120 You, don't you? Don't you just miss it? 596 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,320 And it takes for someone to grab it by the scope of the neck. 597 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,480 And so again, like you're describing, these things are 598 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,600 what patients need. It's what clinics ideally want 599 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,560 to give out to their community. Absolutely. 600 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,040 And they need, they need a big billboard marketing where it 601 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,600 just looks like you're you're smuggling some aftercare advice 602 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,560 into A to an advert. Well, so, so the, the school of 603 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,480 thought for me as well was, you know, I sell injections to a lot 604 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,520 of clinics that don't have the infrastructure to then offer 605 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,320 physio afterwards, right. So they, they do the injection. 606 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,720 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I want to be able to help 607 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,400 solve that problem again by having a referral point, which 608 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,160 will be joint fear and freedom. So I'm building it with 609 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,200 clinician LED input. Like I want, you know, if anyone 610 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,480 listens to this and wants to get involved, you know, as much 611 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,560 clinician input in how I build that, how it functions, what 612 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,680 messages on there, the better because then it's a universal go 613 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,000 to really. So people that don't have that 614 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,400 facility can say, well, there's a downloadable PDF file, there's 615 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:04,960 a web page there to read. It's going to give you some 616 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,080 really good advice and there's other stuff you can read about, 617 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,120 you know, it explains the difference between a compression 618 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,240 sleeve and a brace. There's stuff like that on that 619 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,520 on that website without it selling the compression sleeve. 620 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,760 It talks about it cryotherapy, What is it? 621 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,960 What does the device look like? How can it be portable? 622 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,240 Is that actually for me or is it just for a professional 623 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,080 footballer and it breaks it down issue. 624 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,440 Actually, this is a possibility for you if you've just had a 625 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,840 knee replacement. There's a sort of mental scheme 626 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:32,720 which is very simple to to get hold of. 627 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:38,440 So again, and then the crossover to private clinical practice is 628 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,120 any of those options in there? We, we drop ship that for the 629 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,600 clinic. There's no admin attached to it. 630 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,160 Like if you know, we, we, we basically are building a, a 631 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,040 landing page for clinics we work with within this site because 632 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,560 what, what I thought was important again, from a, a 633 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,560 market and a branding perspective. 634 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,760 And, and you know, for the clinic is you don't want to lose 635 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:05,360 control of the patient to a product or to locate as a map on 636 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,280 a product website. Again, I just think what that's 637 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,800 only serving the company that manufacturers that product. 638 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,560 You don't really want to be on a map of the UK next to 100 other 639 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,680 clinics where patients are going to search around. 640 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:23,160 So we just build a page which, which is their bio picture, 641 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,840 whatever they want on there and talks, talks about them 642 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:29,880 obviously with some of the nice videos and stuff we put 643 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,680 together. Again, very, very light on 644 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,360 pushing product on that. It's not the idea of it, but it 645 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,280 positions them as, yeah, we, this is a centre, you know, we 646 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,720 call it a centre of excellence for, for injecting therapy. 647 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,360 So it's a trusted sort of out of their website, out of their 648 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,240 clinic brand, if you will. But it's got their logo on the 649 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,040 top and their name on the top. And we put all of the marketing 650 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:54,120 material we then provide them is geared towards QR codes and 651 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,600 things sending them to there. Yeah, not a product website got. 652 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,680 You because then yeah, you're getting that association to best 653 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,600 practice and also creating educational resources for them 654 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:04,520 to elevate their. Own. 655 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,440 Yeah. So the patient can then navigate 656 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,200 the whole site and they can't find any of the clinic that's on 657 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:10,440 there. And I think that's, that was an 658 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,200 important point for me. So you don't lose control of 659 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,440 that. You don't lose control of that 660 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,000 that patient. They can't then search around or 661 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,360 who else is on here. They'll only get it if you give 662 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,000 them the link. So that's your choice if you 663 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,880 wanna share that link. But like say if that patient 664 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:26,600 comes in, it's hell bent on saying no. 665 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,360 I really want a compression sleeve here. 666 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,720 They're just on that site on that page that's got your name 667 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,000 on. They can just order. 668 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,520 Of course, right? Right, we get a discount from 669 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,000 working with. You but that's one of the things 670 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:39,600 that people would be concerned about is that they feel like, 671 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,760 oh, it's adding friction. It's like, whereas actually no, 672 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,680 you're cleaning up that pathway on the link. 673 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,680 That's that, yeah, yeah. Because you can understand that 674 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,240 currently where people would think or how to send anyone 675 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:50,480 elsewhere. No, you're sending them 676 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,800 somewhere that's actually optimized, often better than. 677 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:53,360 Your interns? Yeah. 678 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:54,960 Yeah, exactly. And then also offers that 679 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,280 additional external credibility to some of the decision making 680 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,440 that you're doing. And and as you say, you've 681 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,840 automated some of the some of the aftercare advice and made it 682 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,880 made it credible to stop the being really disparate and 683 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,680 disjointed between clinics that that meanwhile but don't 684 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,600 necessarily know the products as well as you guys do. 685 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,000 Yeah, and and I think it's quite easy to see from there as well. 686 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,360 Injections of a treatment option in a pathway, Yes and it and 687 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,040 it's almost I'm trying to build it almost like that story. 688 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,720 So you can see there's a flow of options here, you know, and it's 689 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,600 that reassurance of it's not putting anybody off. 690 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,800 Like it's not saying this, you don't have to go there yet, but 691 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:34,440 it's just saying there's a, there's a, there's a pathway 692 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,240 here you can, you can look into. Yeah, removing fiction. 693 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,200 And that's exactly it. From a commercial perspective, 694 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,280 if I want to sell you a product, I need to make that process as 695 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,440 easy as possible. Last question really, Why do you 696 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,320 think, considering all the things we've talked about, why 697 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,960 do you think clinics should care about this stuff if they don't 698 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,360 already? I think I haven't met one clinic 699 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:03,240 who hasn't got like a plan for the future that they want to be 700 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,560 successful. And I think they need to keep an 701 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,480 eye on their own brand and they need to think what's my one 702 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,239 year, five year, 10 year strategy? 703 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,840 And that's not natural, That's not what you've trained to do. 704 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,320 And that's very difficult to fit in even just a headspace for 705 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,560 that if it's not your day-to-day. 706 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,199 And that's the gap, I guess, you know, what I'm trying to feel 707 00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:31,040 because that is my day-to-day. So what I'm trying to do is help 708 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,080 that. So that's what I would say is, 709 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,880 you know, removing fiction from ordering, making life easier to 710 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,719 get trusted options that fit a pathway. 711 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:46,040 But it's under your umbrella and it's helping to to to build your 712 00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:48,639 your sort of your brand, your name in a, in a good way. 713 00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:50,360 Oh yeah. No, it makes sense now. 714 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,360 Where can people find out more about you and your work? 715 00:34:53,360 --> 00:35:00,000 So the ES Active website, theresesactive.co.uk/toolkit, 716 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,440 we'll sort of put this in in place. 717 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,360 You can sort of click links there or you can visit 718 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,400 jointpainfreedom.co.uk. And do you, are you wise enough 719 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,080 to not be on social media much now? 720 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,440 Or I've. Kind of slowed down quite a bit. 721 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:17,560 That's why that people find you personal. 722 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,760 I'm on LinkedIn and I still do a little bit on LinkedIn. 723 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,160 My e-mail address is jim@eosactive.co.uk. 724 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,040 And that's just the best way to get in touch with this, to be 725 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:28,160 honest. That sounds great. 726 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:29,040 Thanks a lot for. The chat. 727 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:29,960 Thanks, Jack. Appreciate it. 728 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:31,800 Thanks for not punching me when I called you away there, no? 729 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,280 No problem. Cheers.