Hey and welcome back to the a 24 Hour podcast.
Our Guest today. Met working on HBO's, I mean
winning hit series succession while a 24-hour has nothing to
do with succession, aside from being massive fans.
We do know and love composer. Nicholas brutal an actor.
Nicolas Braun brutal compose, the oscar-nominated score for
moonlight and bronze stars in our upcoming film Zola.
We recently set them up on Zoom, where they caught up and talked
about getting out of their own heads, finding a creative
Rhythm, and of course succession.
So, I guess we'll just start. My name is Nicholas Braun and
I'm Nicholas Patel. And we are here with the a24
podcast via Zoom during pandemic.
I can't believe this is actually happening.
We've they've been, you know, the technical setup has been
extraordinary to make this possible.
We've you know, this is some Hi-Fi kind of apparatus that
we've put together for this and yeah, it's rounded by what tires
literally surrounded by wires because like telephone wires and
eats Nets. And there's like so much.
I like what you did before, where you open the door.
Yeah, it was feeling a little choppy.
Know the Wi-Fi airflow. Yep.
And I think it just wanted to get in here and I want to let it
in and it and and you did and and now the Wi-Fi is flourishing
it feels flourishing. Where are you?
Just so because so everyone knows but actually where I don't
know where you are. I'm in New York, I live in Lower
East Side. So I'm at my place I was staying
in La for most of quarantine I was at a couple different
friends, houses and living in guest bedrooms and back houses
and But it feels good to finally be back in my bed in my home and
you're I missed the worst of it here, it feels like but in the
last three weeks since I got back, New York is kind of like
re burgeoning and you know, there you have this to do,
starting to get a pulse again, and for sure.
Know people are sitting somewhat near each other at a rest, you
know, outdoor restaurants and stuff.
And I feel good to be a New Yorker in a way, still in like
get some of this crazy, you know, time.
Absolutely. I mean, actually, it's only
because I'm sort of the Like the mirror image of that because we
were Caitlin and I were in Manhattan for the whole period
from basically early March until a week ago.
And you know, I I you know me, I mean, I love being in my, I like
being inside, I'm really like a very indoors creature.
I like sudden I don't go outside almost ever but this whole
period of time has made me appreciate the outdoors in Like
in a whole new dimension, you know, and basically because we
were so inside. I mean I would say I probably
went out of the building like five times over the four months,
you know, I was really inside that much and so we rented a
place on Long Island just to kind of like get some air and
you know, walk around some trees, Etc.
So so I'm out on Long Island right now.
Yeah. How does it feel to be away from
the city and be in not in your main?
Dwelling. And like you because you said
you built a home studio there, so yeah.
Yeah. Process different is it?
Yeah, it's interesting because like I've I've gotten used to
over the past like you know ten years over the past ten years,
I've been sort of making the the regular pilgrimage out to Los
Angeles. You know.
And we've talked about it a bit like I love you know whenever
I'm working with people, I love working in really close
proximity. Like really you know I feel it's
so important to work with collaborations like in the same
room and too. They're together.
So I've gotten you still like moving equipment, you know, I
always carry like this huge backpack and gear and stuff all
the time. But but, you know, being sort of
during this period of time, it's so hard to kind of just
logistically, do a lot of stuff. So I basically had to, like, set
up this whole studio drive, all the equipment out and it took it
took a little while. I'm not going to last a little
while to get everything together, but I'm pretty set up
now. Like I have a big big Screen.
Because I always feel like whenever you're working on a
film or TV, I always feel like you actually need a big screen
to work with. I've found over the years that's
a whole other conversation but I found all the years that like
when you work with a smaller screen you actually like do
different stuff in a bizarre sort of psychological way which
is sort of like you're not you're not surrounded by the
image in the same way as like a bigger screen.
Exact does it's not like as impactful?
Yeah, exactly. Like I remember years ago, I
would work like I have like a lot of different monitors.
I use when I'm writing stuff and usually, I have sort of a main
like a 32 inch screen, computer screen in front of me.
And then I used to just have like a 20-something inch screen
to my right. And I used to put the picture
over there, you know? So I'd have like, kind of my
session in front of me and then I'd have the movie on the right
and there was something about it where I was like, I don't know,
I just had an inkling that that wasn't optimal and I remember
getting a much bigger screen Green like a 50 inch screen and
putting it up in front of me, like, above the other screen and
immediately, I felt like a new door opened up.
It's like exactly like you said, it's like you need an immersion
in whatever you're doing in. Whatever.
Does that for you? You need to do that.
Basically and yeah, like it shouldn't be in your peripheral
vision sort of Glee exactly. Like it should be the thing
that's like. Yeah, exactly.
And I bet the met, I think the metaphor works for like,
everything. Like, that's just, I mean, That
may be very specific to, like, what writing music for film,
but, but I feel like I wonder for you, like, I mean, thinking
about ways of immersing in a performance, for example, you
know, the I mean, there's always different like, you know,
techniques or thought like do you.
I'm actually just curious like a for performing.
Like, do you think about that to do you think about like before
you're going to do a scene, for example are the things that you
do to kind of immerse yourself psychologically or yeah.
Yeah. I think I grow these little
compulsive things for each role almost like, you know, like
Nadal has like ticks he does before every serve like, oh
yeah, right. Right.
You just sort of, yeah, you know, like he's touching his
forearms and sweat and pulling his hair and stuff.
I feel like I grow these things for the individual role that
I'm, like, I grow my nails out or that I have dirt under my
nails or that I don't sleep as much, or that I eat more.
Eat less, or I said, they're in character.
Like, like, are you Because you think like oh the character
would have liked the dirt under the nails, for example, kind of
thing or or is it more random? It's more kind of just like a,
like a noise, it's definitely character.
It's not my character based. It's like, it's, you know, I
don't there's no perfect way to create like an energy or a
frequency for your character, but I'm like if I don't shower
or if I, you know, don't talk to people the day before or if I'm
super social, whatever the character is or whatever.
I think the frequency that I should be on, for the next day
is sure, sure. Sure, I try to kind of cultivate
that and you know you can't like stop life from happening in
certain things from happening. Or you can't like not talk to
your family for three months because your character doesn't
talk to their family, you know. Like I don't go that far with
it, but right. But I do try to find things
that, you know, it's like I would prefer to grow my hair out
for something that requires it as opposed to wear a wig, you
know, grow them for the real facial hair or right.
You know, make my make my body, really feel like the way that
that character's body feels like because you kind of can't.
Like the voice of somebody is not altered by just like
changing it to seconds before. It's like you have to sort of
live in the body and live in the clothes in the posture and all
those things. Kind of contribute to the thing
that shows up on screen that, you know, or is just the energy,
you bring into a scene with somebody like an actor is going
to feel feel me differently. It's fun because you kind of get
to rewire yourself for a short period of time and just be this
that's the first thing, you know and my characters.
Smoke cigs, all of a sudden, I'm smoking some cigs like right
right. You know, and I'm like doing
this thing and and it helps my voice because it dries my voice
out or more, you know, we're makes me feel a little bit sick.
Oh, I got a sinus infection from smoking cigarettes.
Well, my character, maybe, I don't know.
It's like changes you. It changes you basically.
Yeah. It changes you.
Yeah. So I, it's not, there's not a
huge method to it. Like I don't, I wouldn't call
myself like method actor. Any of that?
I just like, I like the idea of trying Figure out what is the
way that this person feels all the time and can I get as close
to that as possible while also not like you know being an
impossible person in my life to be around for writing.
So it's like a balancing act where you're right exact like
for I'm sure for Windows of time.
That can be really fun, you know?
It's like almost like a little bit of an escape from yourself
in a sense and then other times and then you're sort of like
also, you have to live your life though.
It's exactly that It's a little fun, escape and, and doing the
research is fun to like, I don't know why, this just popped into
my head but I went I went to a I was going to play a juggalo
character. Do you know what a juggalo is a
juggalo. You have you heard of Juggalos
before? And every tell me more Juggalo
is a fan of this rap group called Insane.
Clown Posse? Oh, okay.
Yeah. Pika.
You know, they paint their face with us with clown makeup and
stuff and Mike You're on the page, was, was hey, hung with a
lot of Juggalos. So I thought, well, maybe
they're a juggalo and I should investigate this, so I properly
represent the Juggalo culture to be punished to be more closer to
it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
To be closer to like what, you know, what are those people
like? And what do they feel like?
And you know, what is the actual Juggalo hairstyle?
And what, you know, what's their Vibe and and wardrobe and stuff?
And I got the part the movie An end up happening, okay, by the
way but I got the part and then a week later was the Gathering
of the Juggalos which is a yearly Music Festival, where all
these sort of Insane Clown Posse Branch off groups like inspired
by ICP underperform. Anyway it's a it's a kind of
crazy event and people camp there for a week and so I I
could get there on the last night of the festival and I flew
to Oklahoma City and there's and I brought a tent and I Added to
just like being character and I got a grill for my mouth and I
did my hair kind of weird and I like credible first thing I did
when I got there as I like I bought an ICP t-shirt, you know,
they're just like I'm doing John, I'm doing this.
I'm doing it. And my brother, my little
brother flew out from San Francisco.
I flew from La. We both like met up in Oklahoma
City and camped out at the Gathering of the Juggalos for a
night and that kind of stuff is so fun tonight.
Yeah, like to be able to do that.
Have an excuse, like, have an existence.
This is for Work. You know.
Right really right? It's also just a Fascination and
to get to be around a group of people that I'm normally really
not exposed to and like being a mosh pit and like the big finale
of their Festival is Insane Clown Posse, which is a Duo this
rap Duo. Yeah.
They bring out cases and cases of two liter Faygo which is
this, their soda brand that they created and they pour it all
over everybody like a baptism. Oh my God, the end of the
festival. And as People who did this and
you got poured on, you got poured on, oh, fully fully
doused in root beer and orange soda.
I always sort of talk about how like every project is different
fascinating assignment where it's like, oh, you know, we need
to explore this whole world and then you get to say to yourself.
Okay, well, what, what do we do with that?
Well, you know what, like from my perspective like okay, what
music works with this because there's always the sort of first
layer like the first idea. You see something and then you
can think, okay? Well, this is the direct answer
to that or this is the reflection of that but often I
feel it's not the first or it's almost never the first thing.
That's right for something, it's usually some sort of the second
idea or the third idea. And actually, it's funny like
have you ever talked to McKay about this?
Because he would, he would talk about how he put this really
well a few years ago, to me, where he studied with Del close
in Chicago for improper. Yeah.
Right. And He I remember him telling me
I'm pretty sure. I don't wanna get the mistake
this but he was saying basically, how Dell would always
talk about how it was. Like the third idea was the one
that you like when you're doing improv that your first idea is
sort of like not the right idea. Then your second idea is sort of
kind of it's maybe better but it's a still related to the
first idea. So it's not it's not the idea
but the third idea that that's the idea that's the one you go
with because it's just It's like you've learned from the first
two ideas, but the third one is like the knuth, the new thing.
And then I think he was telling me that like the fourth ideas
like, to too far. That's like that's like you're
in your own head and everything, and he was saying, which I found
fascinating, the idea that that really amazing improv is about
so quickly getting to the third idea.
So it's like, in your head. You get to the 30-day almost
like, right now like you, you cycle through the idea.
So quickly and then you're already at the third idea.
So it seems like you're immediately having this
response, but it's a trained kind of like going through ideas
very quickly. And and I think about that after
he said, it's a mean, I think about that.
Like, almost all the time now, it's just gonna be in my head
every time, you know, it's like with the third idea, But I think
that that makes a lot of sense. You know, the first one is basic
essentially and then the second one is you're trying to beat the
basic. Yep.
And so that. Yep, third is an original idea
in the context of what you're doing.
Exactly. It's exactly.
It's like the it's like the new, the new discovery, still
connected, but halves has evolved.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well that's that's really cool. So so when you're when you're
coming up with stuff like lets you know, let's talk about that,
you'll get it. First instinct towards
something. You do you do say like don't
trust that or sometimes is that right?
And you're like, it's actually pretty close.
I just needed to tweak a thing or reoriented or something
because so much about music. I feel like is Instinct and it's
just it just comes out so expressive and it's what your
ear hears, right? Like you hear Melodies and you
hear instrumentation and you hear, you feel it innately.
So then, You have to put on the academic brain sometimes and be
like that is good. But there is a deeper better
version. That's a great question.
I think that I think it's all related to this stuff where part
of it is hopefully over time. You know, we're learning and
we're maybe we're honing our instincts so that you know, more
maybe more quickly. You start having a learned since
of, I know I could do that but I'm not going to do that, you
know. Maybe.
Because you're like I I know that'll work, but maybe that's
not interesting, you know? Or maybe I've already done that
I don't want. That, you know, but I also think
the, the crazy thing I think about film music is and
fulfillment TV music as a sort of entirety, is that like, you
can write all sorts of music, you know, you can come up with
ideas away from the picture because in a bizarre way, I
guess I'm saying is like, writing music for a picture is
both writing music and working being a filmmaker, you know.
So the music on its own Could be really interesting, you know,
you know, there could be something really cool to you.
Like, we're like the I'm proud of this.
I think it's beautiful and then when you put it up against the
picture, it's totally wrong. And so there's this kind of like
dual layer where you're writing music and you're also testing it
out. Kind of is the way I would put
it where you doing. I always talk about it as like
you're doing experiments where you actually it is.
Maybe almost like a scientist. We have like a theory, you have
your best theories But ultimately Until you do the
experiment which is putting it against the movie or the screen,
you have no idea. And sometimes you're like, wow,
this really works. And then other times you're
like, wow, that is so wrong. But now that I see that it's
wrong, it's telling me something about what could be right?
Yeah. How do you know, I guess how
much experimenting is there? Is there always a phase of?
Okay, here's my first instinct without picture and This is what
my gut tells me based on the script based on this director
and what they've told me like this is the sort of thing I
think is the foundation. And then is there always that
face before you see frames of a movie?
I think I always think yeah. Like even even if I just hear
about a project, I think I just love playing around with this
stuff, you know. So like, even even if I'm not
working on a project or a here about a project.
I think I naturally start going. I wonder would work with, you
know. And, and so I think like, like,
for example, in succession I You know, I first heard about it I
think I mean it might have been even while we were still doing
the big short. I remember, you know, I came to
set Jeremy and Brian are having that uniting room want to hit
me. Yeah, exactly yes.
Yes. Yeah, but that was that went
that was sort of like for me. That was incredible because I
got to let you know like you're talking about me immerse it you
know and and and you know just feeling the feeling the tension
in the room with that happening. It, although it's, it is
intangible and it's all. But I really believe that all
this stuff affects you. Subconsciously in a lot of ways
and almost like a almost, like, a mystical way.
Like, if you, if you're around this stuff and you feel it, it's
going to affect you and you're going to bring that into your
work somehow, you know? Yeah.
I mean, it's been interesting and great having you at table
reads. I love to go.
That's, that's been so much fun for me.
I think you started in second season, right?
Like you were there at the I came it was second season, I
think, or did I might have come to one in the first season but
definitely second season for sure.
Yeah, and I went to the writers room to actually, I went to the
writers room when they were writing season 2 as well.
In London, actually. I mean, I think it makes a lot
of sense. Like you're trying to sort of
get what is, what are the rhythms and what are the colors
of the season? And how is it changing?
And exactly. Exactly.
Yeah. And actually, how did you?
I'm just curious like, how did Did you first like when did you
first learn about succession? Like, what was that process?
How did you hear about it? It was sent to me, kind of, like
most auditions. Get sent to you.
You get, you know, the script and you get some of the, some of
the sides. I got a few Greg scenes and, you
know, it said, I'm going to meet Adam McKay and and I'd never
never met Adam, but I like long revered, him and fast.
Yeah, you know. So I was like, this is crazy.
This is great. I need a demo Totally and and I
kind of understood Greg. I think I don't know if I
understood where he fit actually.
I think I understood like he is an oddball in this world.
You know, his energy is different.
The, The Stumbling nature of him and awkwardness and the sort of
forced forced ambition of it. All is like, very clear to me.
I was like, okay, I'm just going to give give it a shot and Adam
like my read and he did a bunch of like improv sort of things
with me in the room there. These sort of open-ended
scenarios that he gave Greg. What we're like, What were the?
I'm curious? What sir do you remember though
or I do? Yeah.
So there's the scene in the pilot where Greg is in this
training room and he's really high, you know, he smokes a
little young, but yeah, and then and then he's sitting in the
room and he's in like 80% of his dog costume and the, the Asian
person is giving the kind of corporate seminar in like all
the guidelines and he just, he was like, let's just keep the
scene going. What if there's a gunman on, you
know, at the amusement park, what would you do in that
scenario, right? And as Greg just I just started
answering these questions and and you know, he gave me like 10
scenarios and it just sort of. I mean, for me it was great to
like like I was saying earlier, like it's great to get into the
pathology of somebody total with.
If so how do you, how does your mind riot in this character?
Answer a question, right? Not the way I'm going to answer
it. So I have to redirect and go.
Oh, yeah, Greg. So Greg Briggs fearful.
He's he wants to say the right thing, but he has no
understanding of corporate like culture.
So Frisk him, should I say I could first, you know, or
escort. Mmm, get on the ground.
You know, I mean, I don't know what I actually said, but I
think yeah, yeah, it was They find it understand.
Okay, how, where is he? And at that point in the show,
he's like, so squirrelly and weird, and right, right.
And we're, and you were supposed to do.
What am I in that scene to write?
Like, you're supposed I'm hoti Hai.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. So he's yeah.
He's all of the above. I can't even really understand
the questions that. Well.
Exactly. You know just wants to get out
there and put the costume on and just get through the day just
get through. Yeah.
Deep. You know, one thing actually
it's funny when you, when you said Ed, you know, Frisk or
escort. Yeah, I feel that Greg has such
a fascinating kind of affinity for Words.
Actually, you know, and language like that really comes out in
the Congressional hearings in season two, you know, where
you're sort of inhabiting that that that Universe of like the
the like almost like Court procedure words, you know, where
you're sort of like, if it is to be said, you know?
So so it So it is so it seems. So I is that how much of that is
like you like us? Because it sounds like you you
now fully know how to inhabit Greg.
And is that was that in the was a lot of that in the writing
like had. They thought that Greg would
talk this way or is that something to that you've sort of
like brought into things? You know I'm cute.
I'm pretty sure it was in the writing.
Wow, that's awesome. Pretty sure it's there because
in the pilot I remember there's this scene Did stay in the pilot
where I'm sitting with Brian in between Bryan and he I'm in the
car and I'm saying, you know, if there's if there's a way for me
to scratch your back and write your out when you scratch mine
or not might you know yeah something and I used the word
perspicacious and they sang. Yeah that's the word I use and
so I'm like you know it's tells you a lot about the way Jesse
sees Greg totally is that he is scrambling in his thoughts and
appears maybe Dawn. But has this vocabulary weirdly
right, right? Or MIT?
Or maybe he just like, thinks around Rich, smart people.
He's supposed to use the big words, he knows, but he's trying
to. It's like it's the code.
He's trying to fit in as if like, and the irony being that
the last thing in the world, that that Logan is whatever uses
a word like that, you know, he's like, like when they're quoting,
you know, Shakespeare to him. He's just like, you know, fuck
off, total. Keep it as simple as possible.
It'll just say what you want. Exactly like, why are we here?
Yeah, but it's interesting too because it feels like you.
I mean, you know obviously I've been I've been working on
succession but I'm a fan of all of your work and and I feel like
the you know all the characters, all the actors are inhabiting in
such a deep way and it you know, so like you were saying before
when you're talking about preparation and immersion, do
you find yourself even are there.
Certain obviously Greg has a sort of physicality.
In his way to, like do you now, sort of naturally?
Kind of, like, if I were to say to you, you know?
Like, okay, you're you're Greg the egg right now, you know, do
you know, do you naturally sort of does your body feel that
really? I'm just curious like how, you
know, or would it take you time? Like you're saying does is it
sort of like, give me two hours and I'll be Greg kind of a
thing, you know. I think that's it, would be in
the wardrobe and putting on a Greg style suit or outfit.
Okay. And then it would be, yeah, the
posture kind of changes. And I think the voice changes a
little bit and then there's just an energy that kind of takes up.
That's all like a little bit more hyper aware of the room key
players in it. Right?
That's a good point actually. It's very Greg's, very sensitive
to the room. Right?
But also like one of the things I love about Greg to is
sensitive to the room but also like oddly self-centered as
well, you know like the way like I still remember that moment
where you say like it's Gregory You know, like, in the midst of
this, you know, like lion's den you're still like, well,
actually, please call me Gregory.
Yeah. Demanding something exactly for
his identity of a person, for some respect for symmetry.
Exactly. Exactly.
Yeah, I know, I think that, I think that's totally the
balance. He's like, I got to do the right
thing. Got to do the right thing, but I
also got a really do what I want to do right now.
Ryan, go for what I want. Exactly, which is remarkable
because it's such a, you know, in that, Environment.
There's there's also the fact that Greg does have these
Ambitions, you know, and is actually incredibly ambitious,
you know, willing to walk in the, you know, in the bathroom
and be like, I'm I'm out of here.
I'm out of here. Logan?
Yeah, he's, yeah, he's trying to negotiate.
Yeah. With him, like even at his.
Yeah, his big night exactly. I love that part of him.
I mean, I think that for me, is one of the most exciting Parts
about Greg is that All the things that were the sort of
ambition that I myself sort of put a dampener on and I'm like,
no, don't don't go up to that person and say that right now
don't you know, you're just you read the rich like read the
room. I read the room Gregory's it and
he's like everything is available.
Where do I want to go the most right now?
And so, yeah, there's just that kind of freedom of like instinct
and excitement, and saying, thoughts that are inside your
head that most people don't say out loud.
Yeah. And and I love that.
I mean, that's a fun day to get to have.
It is awesome that it's awesome watching you and and and and
also I think, you know, I'm curious to like it seems to me
like the whole cast, you know, you all I have gotten to know
each other so, well, do you feel, you know, similarly, to
Preparing yourself. Do you, how much time do you all
spend together? Because from what I can tell,
you know, it feels like this real family to me, you know, and
the way that you all interact, it feels like you have almost
like a second nature where you just know like you you respond
to each other. So naturally in those roles.
Yeah. I I don't know how but I think
it just got built really quickly.
You know, I think Adam probably set us up perfectly and just
sort of throwing us into these rooms and saying, you know, say
whatever you want to each other here and you try something Nick,
you try, you start the conversation at the table and
everybody basically gets permission in that way to embody
your character, see what happens like will use it.
Maybe we won't maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't.
But but when you're put into that kind of initiation with a
group of people and, you know, in the pilot phase, it's all the
Three. You're you know, you're all
buying into something that isn't a sure thing.
Yeah. And it's it's it's like well
let's just go for this. All right.
Let's see. I mean that felt good that felt
funny. What is this show?
Like is this a drama? Is it a comedy?
Am I you know, right am I doing this right?
I mean everybody's just wondering.
So I think Adam kind of neutralize that in a good way
which was just sort of like try it all.
Yeah, well, that's right. Just try it.
I love that so much. I mean I think Adam You know,
and and I would say every every good religion o collaborative
relationship. I feel in some sense in some in
the kernel of it is like that we're basically I mean Barry
Jenkins. I mean it's it is so do that
type of thing where there's just an openness and a trust to
things and and Adam and Jesse, you know, are the same way for
me to where it's like there's no wrong answers.
If anything, they would be upset if you didn't present something,
that was your idea. You know?
That's the only thing that would be Bad as if you don't share an
idea that you're having, because no one like, Adam always says
stuff to me, like, you know, he'll always say the movie is
going to win in the end. It's not about any one of us.
It's about the project. If it's a good idea, it'll make
the whole project better. So let's all share ideas.
Yeah, I think, I think you on succession, you show an idea and
usually helps Jesse understand his seen better or the direct,
you know, Mark usually but, but they'll sort of be like, oh
yeah, no wait. That's good.
Stick with that and then do this on top of it.
Yeah, so I want. So in terms of like other
projects like what is? I don't know, has there been a
crazy process that happened. That was like not your your
ideal way and it turned out, okay?
Or like, what are some sort of like, odd circumstances?
May be that you've created music or things you thought.
They're certainly wouldn't work did like, there's a good?
Yeah, I think I spent a lot of time during and after college A
lot of short films you know because I feel short films are
like in a lot of ways. I think people don't appreciate
enough. How crucial short films are to
fit the film industry and that short films are like a really
tangible way that that filmmakers learn how to how to
make movies, you know? I mean, I certainly learned a
lot about how to score things just by, you know, working with
friends who were making shorts and every single one, just
trying different things and experimenting and really, really
leaning into it that way. Way.
I mean, people might and I was a cocktail pianist at one point in
high school. Actually.
I used to like play used to play cocktail music for like
fundraisers and, you know, private parties.
And then I actually after my freshman year in college, I had
this whole, you know, I mean it was it was a tough time.
Like I was I guess freshman year, I really wasn't sure what
to do with myself, just in life. I was when I was growing up, I
always thought I was gonna be a concert Pianist and basically,
sort of like, late high school, I started thinking to myself,
maybe I'm not gonna be a concert pianist, you know.
So I took a year off after my freshman year in college to give
concerts, and basically, spend my days, like just playing the
piano all the time. And that was the year where I
was. I did a lot of cocktail piano as
you know, which was, which was a whole other world.
And I mean as far as other stuff too I even I even wrote like
telephone hold music which was really interesting.
I've done, you know, I I just love writing music.
So before I knew how to get gigs, I would just, I had a
friend who read, who worked at a restaurant who reached out to me
and was like, so I got a gig for you and I was like, oh, what is
it? He's like the restaurant needs
hold music. Would you, you know, do you
think you would do something? And I was like this is
incredible. So excited like he's like
there's no pay but they'll like buy you a drink and I was like
let's do this. So you know, I wrote this kind
of like spa music that I thought be relaxing when you know get
put on hold and I had my friend. You're so nice like they would
call the restaurant and they would be like, oh could you
please put me on hold you know, like so they could not hear the
music, you know. So so those might be some
unexpected gigs, you know, we all expected gigs right?
Like you. Yeah.
That's yeah, that's such a cool way to release music like.
Hey, all right, here's my new track call.
This number call this at exactly call this number.
And and it also makes you appreciate to like how I mean
the many places that music does exist, you know?
That is every place you hear music, somebody worked on.
Exactly, you know. And the lesson to me was just
like, if you're, if you're this excited about writing music for
literally any possible context, it must mean that you really
like writing music, you know, and I think those were the,
those were, the kind of the lessons.
I think I was having for, to my to myself, sort of like,
everyone's trying to figure out what to do and you don't know
enough because you haven't lived enough.
And the thing that I started realizing was just how did I
want to spend my day if I could structure my Anyway, what would
what would I do? And I was in a band in college
and I was scoring Friends movies, and I realized that if I
was just writing music all day, I'd be pretty happy.
So, you know, over. So you just start figuring out,
well, maybe that's what I should do be doing and were you able to
make enough money like doing stuff in college?
Or was it, you had to have a side job and not at all.
It was the passion that. Yes.
So in college. So, the, the cocktail gigs were
were great, but I mean, there were only so many different
ways. Nobody ever change for someone
in summoning cocktails that there's not that many not that
many opportunities for that. So, I was also an organist.
I was a church organist in the Summers.
Well, in Colorado, I was the Jewish organist in an Episcopal
Church, which was which was fascinating.
Those were, those were some of the Musical musical ways in
college that I would try to make some money.
But but, you know, I think for film and TV and, and the Arts in
general, I think it's like it is a long term investment See.
Now it takes, it takes a long time, it takes so much work and
and so many projects until you start.
Hopefully, getting the opportunity to get really paid
for it. Yeah, totally.
Totally. Have you had moments where I
don't know you're on the trajectory but you're like I
don't know how to get to the next rung of this.
Like I'm scoring four friends shorts.
And but how do I actually score a feature or how do I score
somebody? That doesn't even know me or I
mean, absolutely. Did you had some moments where
your You. Yeah.
I mean it's it and it's interesting too because I think
it speaks to the whole industry as well, where it's like certain
industries are structured in ways where they're more like
where there's a more obvious on ramp in a way.
You know I've been talking to some friends about this just in
the context of the world today where it's like you know, if you
think about like being a lawyer being a doctor, let's just say
as an example. You know there are certain
schools that you go to and you get an approved degree of a
certain sort and then it leads there's the end of a track and I
think Arts Entertainment is much more amorphous.
It's much more, it's much more unclear, how, what that on-ramp
is? You know?
And and I one thing I've been spending time thinking about is
like creating more ways to like demystify the process or do
mentorships. I've been trying to teach a bit
and talk about that because I think it's I think that way we
will get more, you know, there's just so many incredibly talented
people who either don't have an opportunity to do this or who
don't. Even aren't even exposed to the
opportunity you know to know that they could be amazing at it
in a way I think Hollywood is is a freelance industry.
Like almost everybody is freelancing and free.
Like for example freelance musicians, you know it's like a
we're all gig to Gig which which has opportunities because you're
flexible and you can take on new projects and you go from one
cool thing to another. But also there's a sense of what
is the structure? What's the stability of the
structure? Over long periods of time?
I know I wanted to talk to you about.
That because you have a really good work schedule.
Work structure, like your you are very busy and obviously like
you have your studio at your home so you can just do it
whenever. But how do you continue to turn
and work and always stay inspired?
I mean, you know, for me, I've like, I've done a little bit of
music, but when I do it, it's because there's something in me,
that's like, okay, I gotta write a song and it's, it comes out of
some urge that's in that moment or yeah, something happened that
inspired words or you know whatever.
But but you do this every day and you're able to like I don't
know, it just love to hear like how that works and if some days
you wake up and you're like I don't know how to make music
today but then somehow you do you know or if it's a process of
like you're making a lot and you're like I know I'm going to
make x amount of music and some of it will just be unusable I
think. Combination of things, I think
in college when I was in my band, I would make, you know, a
lot of beat like I was hugely into making and producing hip,
hop beats. And I would, I would work, I
mean I would make I was making so many tracks every day.
You know, it was just, it was just, I just loved it.
And but one of the things, my, my friend Jake and I would do is
we had this sort of rule for ourselves which was it sounds
really basic but we felt it was like the most profound
realization and all it was was that we said Ed, if it feels
good, keep going. And if it doesn't stop, and that
was the rule. And it was, when we figured that
out, it was like a revelation to us, because I think there are
these times where it's something, you know, some things
like not quite working, but you're like, no, I'm gonna like
push it through. It's like, don't just, just
stop. Just go away.
Just pause, do something else and come back tomorrow.
And the weirdest thing is like, time tells you everything, you
know, like I feel I feel and also it takes the pressure.
Our off those moments where a lot of it is like, you know, yes
you want to just experiment with things and you just try
something and there's no way to know beforehand if it's anything
is ever. It's going to work.
You know I literally never have any idea.
If something is going to work I just do it and then I don't
judge it and then 24 or 48 hours later you come back to and
you're like oh that was that's kind of interesting and then the
other one you're like, oh wow, never never play that ever
again. Sometimes when I'm making music
it comes out in this flurry and then I think back and I'm like,
whoa, those four hours? I don't know how I came up with
that. I don't know how any of this
happened but it just happened. Do you have that?
Like, you know, is that, is that a part of the process that
you're just? Like, I think, whenever music or
art is intellectual in, it's like execution.
I don't think it works. I think it has to be kind of
visceral, you know, like like in a way, like you study things.
You learn about technique, you practice.
So that in the moment, you don't Any of that and you just go kind
of from your gut, you know, and and in a way I think it's like
it's like what you were talking about with performance, you
know? I mean I think I think the
moment that you're writing something let's say is kind of
like a performance that you just freeze and then you work on it,
you know what I mean? Like like like every idea that
that ends up being finished at one point was just like a anime,
like it emerged as almost improvisation and then it And
then you edit it and you choose and you say, no, I don't like
this. And, you know, so that that
first kind of moment of something in a way for
everything is always a performance, you know.
And so it has to be like I'm sure if you're on stage or in
front of a camera you know that moment is that special thing,
right? Totally.
That's why. When you do a TR which is the
the redoing of your lines in a studio, six months later.
Yeah, it's so weird because there's so many factors that
Happen out of thin air, right in a room with somebody with
cameras happening to be there, but you just can't recreate that
later but that speaks to like what you were saying earlier
like, do you for example for a Dr. Do you do even more of a
kind of immersion? You know, I try to wear
something that was similar and maybe and I try to if my body's
like moving, I just gotta I gotta move while I'm saying the
line or I don't know. You do you do a lot of face
imagining like opening that person?
There and oh what like like literally like mental kind of
visualization or I guess you're sometimes, you're looking at a
face on the screen, you know, you're the screens in front of
you so so you're looking at them.
And so you're trying to basically talk to a screen
version of a human that you used to be with you.
Yeah, that you were talking to it is the performance stuff is
fascinating, though. I think that's a whole.
I mean, that could be a whole other hour of conversation
because I feel like thinking about preparing for things was,
is such a big thing. And I know I kind of struggle
That too because sometimes when you're on set and some things is
super important moment for you and, you know, sometimes you've
been thinking about this one scene four months.
Yeah. Or a year or something, you
know. So you might preparing for this
moment and then somebody is there and they want to have a
conversation about like basketball like the NBA, I don't
know where what a great craft services.
Like it's so weird. How the coffee taste today or
something? And, and that's a part of onset
culture to but you know, Sometimes you just have these,
these distractions, and it's hard to separate and then
sometimes you want to use them. Like, for instance, in that sick
session Congress. Seeing there's a room full of
background actors there and read tog, refers and fake senators,
and all this stuff and sort of, I want to look at them and use
them beforehand and get some of that energy, maybe you can kind
of get thrown, but then sometimes you also want to use
it. That's really smart.
That's where your so in it already, actually, you're
already, you've already spun it in your favor, but Different.
When you're playing piano in front of a group of people, you
know, this piece that's extremely specific, like I'm
thinking because I saw you play in that every College Juilliard
night, you know, that's a room. It's a Symphony Hall, full of
people and there's 100 people on stage with you that have all
rehearsed in your there. How do you alleviate the
pressure of the? I'd be interested to know.
Like yeah and granted you wrote that psoas like it is it's
coming straight out of you right.
But but what does that That what is that?
Like, and how do you, I think every time it's different, you
know, it's kind of, like, in a way, I was reading something
about this, or where, basically, it was kind of the idea that
like, if you're ever not nervous before a performance, it means
something's wrong. Like, in a way I think part of
it is realizing that sometimes what we interpret, as anxiety is
actually excitement, you know, because it's your body before
performance, you have energy, like your body is energized, you
know. And I think if you said
yourself, no, I'm just excited about this.
You know, that's, that's, that's one positive thing, but I think
the other is just like, I think the part of our brains that does
performance like live. For example, the part of my
brain that like helps play the piano, you know, is not the
rational, part of my brain. And I learned that maybe the
hard way. But is, like, the part of your
brain, which thinks about everything, which knows normal
thing. That's not what's playing the
piano. The part.
This plant has some other part of your brain.
That's deep. / and more subconscious.
And so I actually think in a weird way it's like about
getting out of your own way, you get out of your head and you
don't think about it actually, you just get out there and
you're just like I'm just gonna do, you know I think I think
anytime that I am thinking about my planning, it's never a good
thing. But if I'm not thinking the
irony is like, it seems like almost irresponsible, you're
like I'm not thinking about what I'm doing but it's actually
that's how you do it, which is a whole weird.
That we have but I've obviously thought way too much about it.
No, no, I love that. I think that's right.
You kind of have to tap out of yourself yourself as a as an
ordinary human. Like just it's like I'm about to
do this thing. That is extremely different from
the rest of my day, the rest of my life, which is enter this
instrument in front of a room full of people.
So that is a different aspect of myself and I gotta breathe into
that. Exactly.
And have to allow that to kind of Do its own thing, you know?
Yeah. And in a weird way.
Like, that's the bizarre thing. I've have, you felt over the
years like that, there are performances that you've given
X. You've been on stage or what
have you in front of a camera and you didn't even know kind of
seemingly what you were doing or you weren't prepared in the way
that you thought you should be. And yet it was the best thing
you've done, you know, like I've had that happen where I remember
giving a concert where I really for whatever the reason did not
think I was prepared for it and without question is one of the
best Winces I ever gave. And in some sense, I think that
made it even more complicated for me, because I was like, wait
until I don't even know if by not preparing, I gave the best
concert. Now, I'm just confused.
Well I like I think the best moments as a performer are the
ones where you're just okay with the mystery of how it's going.
Yeah, I don't know, I don't know how this is going and I'm not
judging it. Actually, I'm just in it and
there are no boundaries. I weirdly just feel like I can't
do anything right now and it's just me.
It's my expression just coming out and I think that's the place
you want to get to. So you're not like strong-arming
something into what you thought the night before.
Supposed to be your what you think, people are going to
expect of you to do today. It's that's right.
And if I have to shed all of all that stuff in your, like I
actually don't know what it's gonna be but I know I really
want to play this song or know. I really want to do this scene.
I know there's something there's some engine here for me.
So I'm just going to do that and then as an actor, you know
specifically, when I feel like okay this scene is overwhelming.
Like there was there was a scene this season that just sounds
like I don't know what I'm doing here.
This Feels, I feel like I'm acting in a lot that I'm trying
to achieve this thing that the scene feels like it requires and
that feels bad. I feel like a bad actor today, I
just don't feel you feel like you're doing as opposed to like
being yeah. Where I'm like, I know there's
an expectation for the scene and so I should make sure like a
certain moment. I have a lot of excitement on my
face. So I have a lot of, you know,
and that's not everywhere. I want to be, like, I don't want
to think about what I have to achieve.
Am I making sense? You're totally makes idiots like
because you're, it's kind of like what I was saying about the
piano to. It's like you're thinking about
about it and almost like a success failure or cause-effect
kind of a way. And in a bizarre way, I think in
order for a performance of any sort to be in it properly, it
can't be about, like, success or failure or kinds of that.
Exactly. Because then it pressurizes, it,
and it makes it like, there's a result, you need to get to, for
the scene, in order for it for ability to walk away and go.
Next thing and feel like we got that scene and this scene
probably didn't even require that.
But for whatever reason, I built this in.
And in those moments, I usually just go.
Okay. And I have an actor, I had
Jeremy in the room. Yeah, I'm like I'm just going to
rely on what Jeremy gives me and I'm going to back off the
result. I think I need to get to in here
and that to me always kind of grounds me and I don't know how
it is in music if you're just sort of.
Like it's just me and him. Wouldn't bunch of Ivory and
metal here, whatever. But there's there was something
nice about, you know, if I'm with Matthew or from with on any
set with any actor, I'm just sort of like I'm with a person
here. Okay, let me just be with the
persister cells usually responding other I think for me
that's why I love collaboration actually that's kind of the
answer to it in a way. That's why I think I'm so drawn
to working with others and that's why I love working with
directors, you know, is because they have a vision, I get to
receive that vision from them. And so no matter what I'm
focused on or doing, I can always like, there's always
something to resonate with in a way you're kind of free.
You know, it's that sort of liberating constraint, kind of a
thing. Ultimately, you know, that there
is this Vision that you would be will be a part of that you can
learn from that, you can discuss and it kind of takes you.
I think, for sure, it takes me out of my own head.
Yeah, it's a conversation. Totally.
It's a conversation. Yeah, that feels exactly right.
Look, I could just keep talking to you for another hour at
least, maybe we'll just keep. Yeah well, I love it man.
I love talking to you. All right, to talk fascinating.
Yeah. Yeah, really, really cool dude.
But it's great to see you via a computer screen man.
And yeah yeah we're talking to you.
I hope I hope I see you in real life.
Yeah. Let's let's you know hopefully
in the not too distant future maybe we can do a socially
distanced you know hello or you know distanced coffee.
At some point in New York, you know.
Yeah. Yeah.
Just drink drinks. Close to each other.
Yeah. But but but like fully hat you
know protected in gear of some you know visors and mass Saran
Wrap and stuff. Yeah, exactly exactly.
But say so safety but you will see each other.
Yeah. Thank you a 24 for thank you a
24. Yes together.
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