Hey, it's a 24 thanks to everyone who listen to episode
one. We've been reading your emails
and appreciate all the feedback for this episode.
You're going to hear a conversation between two friends
and collaborators of ours, who also happened to be longtime
friends with each other, they describe themselves.
As the kind of people who would listen to an a 24 podcast, not
the people. You asked to follow the berry
and Greta episode. But if you've ever watched their
stand-up specials or television show, you understand why we
wanted you to hear this conversation between comedian,
Jerrod Carmichael and comedian turned filmmaker.
Sure, Bo Burnham Bose, first film, eighth grade comes out
this summer, and before you recorded their conversation, we
invited draw to a screening. The first thing he said was,
what if I hate it I'm supposed to tell Bo I hate his movie on
the 824 podcast. We said just see the movie and
we'll figure it out and we think we did.
Hello. Well kids at NYU Gallatin you
for doing it. I'm so glad they're listening to
this to getting ready to go out. Go to class perhaps I don't know
where to start. I want to I don't want to sound
like a naturally. We should start by saying we're
following up Greta and Barry they rehearsed episode.
We heard that all. We are the second up.
Damn it. So we go from Academy Award
nominees to basically two of the varieties.
Tend top comics to watch 2011, we have fallen off an absolute
Cliff of prestige here, guys. Good beer guy.
We are we are not prepared. Yeah, we are not you will not be
as fulfilled as you were from that interview, maybe exactly
eight. We're the type of people that
would listen to an 8 24. But here's the thing.
This is the thing that I'm not sure like I don't know how we
should sound. Are you like, do you want to be
inspired? I don't think we got.
Yeah I think episode 1 & 3 will be for that next they'll
probably have. Who knows?
Your goes laughing Mouse and some great, you know but for
this I think this is for the people.
We were one of the we're we're of the people, we're friends?
Yeah, we're friends, we've known each other for a while.
We're in my house. A mansion in the Hollywood
Hills, it is very lovely, healthy, the Griffith
Observatory, all, it's always great.
Yeah, it was great. Yeah, I get, it looks like la
la. Yeah, we're not in.
Imagine Hollywood Hills, we're at, we are at 8:45 sweets,
Revenue, we send somebody. Yeah, we're not their buddies,
right? So yeah, they're not.
On the door. Feel free to say hi.
We're here we're bows. This is a very exciting and sit
down and talk where I think we should start as that.
You have a new film, which I was lucky enough to see recently,
that is really, really incredible, really incredible,
right? And now it's like an awesome
complete piece of work. I am jealous in a very real way,
like in a like, like cold water and the mirror.
Type. What if they're just, like, all
right. It makes you question yourself.
The movie comes out in mid July. I think it's called eighth grade
about the movie. This was such the opposite
direction that anyone would ever expect, what the fuck, what?
Ya think? Ya.
Which makes it like that. I mean, it's crazy like a 13
year old girl. Is such an insane thing, right?
Right? Yeah.
So Focus Need to get right? Is, you know, why would I I say
yeah, yeah, yeah. Well it's like, these are my
dogs. That's that's moaning Bruce
running around barking upstairs, they're having fun.
They're so they're revved up by the quality of conversation.
Very funny. Um, yeah, I don't know, we
talked about this a lot, you know, we have a lot of
conversations in this house that are unspeakable and so glad that
I'm sure to Lexa could end Careers spill easily.
But yeah, I mean I spent a lot of time trying to talk about
whatever the internet or whatever, like the current
moment felt like to me and I my angle into it, which a lot of
comics like angle is, was being ironic and being crazy, and
being edgy and I kind of just reached the end of that and got
really, really tired of it. And I felt like, all right, I
want to do something new and I want to do something.
That's scary to me and exciting, and it really was the scariest
thing to me was to do something like so, so vulnerable and bare
and uncool, and, and emotional that it just felt right.
It was a thing that was sort of like, on the edges of my stuff
before but it was all sort of couched and, you know, wacky,
ironic crazy stuff. You know, you just go direct.
Yeah, just just like it felt like, why not?
Why not try to? I don't know.
It's just It's obviously a really weird moment, you know.
Yeah, in the world. Yeah.
And, and we obviously sort of both struggle with how I don't
know how you talk. How do you talk about a moment?
That is already a parody of itself?
Yeah. I mean, how do you talk about
something that is already so silly?
How do you make fun of a culture that that Old Spice commercials
make fun of the culture? Geico commercials make fun of,
you know, I mean it's just feels like to me at least that it's
such a disruption to Art. It's in a really dangerous.
This place I I think because it's like, you know, what is
that, you mean the culture is or well?
Yeah, well, alright, but things that we make, you know, me and
like everything from talk shows to movies to everything because
it's like, you know, I always look at it like a talent show,
right, where you just want to like bring a unique different
Talent, the next person, and yes, like you're just a, we'll
all bringing our product to this world Spear and you wanted to be
different and unique. And then like, you know,
people's ability to just kind of act.
When like reduce themselves. So like sassy.
Yeah, everybody's like how to just being like set.
Like it is, it's not as creative as I know.
We can be well in the sassiness, right?
I mean, like, sassiness is running the world right now.
I'm just saying, who is more sassy?
Might be a weird word, but, but but it was but, you know, says
almost how it sounds like it's not a new way in.
It's like for me it's it's how do you satirize the When the
world is insane, how do you, how do you poke fun at at?
I mean, I'm just trying to say Trump without saying Trump.
Yeah. But but it's like, I don't know.
Talking I want to talk with the internet obviously and like it
felt like I feel like the way the internet is being talked
about is sort of on the internet's terms.
You know me people talk about the internet like oh man, it's
you go viral or your naked pictures leaked or whatever and
then they do a longer piece about the internet.
That's moving at the speed of the internet.
Trying to deconstruct. Rock the internet.
And actually like the, the antidote to the internet is
actually like something more boring and sad and still.
And I'm not saying my, hopefully not my movies, not boring.
But, but it's some German saying, it's that weird.
I don't know, I can't tell the difference between the things
and the satire of the thing anymore.
So I just felt like, man. I that sort of ironic winking
game is sort of dead. Well, because by the time you
comment on the internet, you're already Behind.
Exactly. And the internet absorbs those
comments yet saying like if the internet culture is inherently
self-referential creators creators fear of the internet, I
think is like really what it is. Is like there is an inherent
fear, no one wants to Trend negatively, you know what I
mean? Like it's that that fear because
when that dictates everything, that's the news now.
Yes. You know like I sound like an 83
year old me. Yeah.
But but it dictates the news because Now if you watch the
news like 50% of the stories are so on Twitter.
Yeah, I just raised the material, just like various
stories. Have commentary like Instagram
comments is commentary. Yeah, you know, and so, you
know, it dictates its oh, no, everyone's afraid.
And so everyone, you know, just more specifically, just like the
creative process, you know, totally inhibiting to totally
the creative process. Even, even the thought of
wanting to make everybody happy. Because that's what it is.
You the internet is everybody and you want to make and it's
something. And there's something about the
internet to that makes you feel like in order to comment on it
or just be a part of this culture after take a real hard
stance on things. And that to not take a stance
has to be either weak or cowardly.
And and especially for me it's like this seems like such a as
hard a time as ever to have a stance on things just because
things are changing so rapidly, and it's so confusing and
something I really liked About your what made your show?
So great the Carmichael show which was so wonderful was that
for me, the meaning of your show was the sum total of all of the
disparate conversations being had by the family.
You know, I mean, that is a story about the the ecosystem of
of huge National, disagreements and conversations can actually
be happening within six people in a family.
Yeah. And that those disagreements
that we have Giant political disagreements, if you kind of,
look at them. Can sometimes be boiled down to
just like you and your brother and the type of person you are
well, with somebody else. I feels important at this time,
too. I don't know.
At a time when so much of the politics is between and so much
of the culture is between people planting their feet in the
ground and saying, I'm right? And you're wrong, which I'm not
saying which of course that should be happening in.
There are certain things happening the culture where that
fight needs to Happening. But for art to be a in, at
least, in some respect to, I don't know, acknowledge this,
how confusing everything is and how, I mean, I'm at a loss for
words now, because I've got to the topic of everything being so
confusing and articulate. Yeah, that first thing you feel
like you have an interest in that of I felt like in your work
and in your, and your stand up to you, you seem to have an
interest in portraying unresolved feelings or not
necessarily. Having a stance on some?
Yeah, yeah. A lot of times I like gray areas
a lot, you know? And and it's that you've always
kind of captured. This is going to just turn into
that they count. This is not how we talk to each
other. By the way, at her house we said
I'm just going to be sitting Point each other we go like
yeah. Great well I will say I will say
it's not that far away from certain moments.
We've had certain moments, a lot of, a lot of times, I
interesting like the worst but a lot of times I interaction is
like that scene in network with Just like wasted outside of a
like, without even drinking. A lot of times is yeah.
Feels drunken that's like a really?
Yeah, I know, I don't know. How do we?
I don't know. We use.
What do we usually talk about? We usually talk about just
people, we love and things, we love and we love right now.
What do you love? It's very nice.
That's a nice topic for us. Let's rank.
Let's rank a twenty four films from worst to best.
East. Okay ready.
He's crazy. That was a second route almost
started. I know.
I know I know start and then not.
Yeah you let me know just like the worst know what am I liking
your butt wet? Like yeah, what are you
listening to? I noticed such a probably
podcast the question. Um listen I don't listen we
really like that Anderson POC, new song.
It's really that Spike Jonze thing with that kids really
beautiful. All practical.
Walls. And yeah it's really amazing.
It's a little terrifying though. When I listen to that and I was
like oh man this there's two things.
This sounds incredible and it also already sounds like an
apple commercial which is a little terrifying.
It's like oh shit. Apple is Apple's finger really?
Oh yeah. Like and it has been the fact
that like I really like this song and this also and it
doesn't seem weird to be in an apple commercial.
I'm like man you guys. I mean but you've really figured
it out. They pick the right people.
Yeah. You know, like it's like a lot
of times. I mean, who am I to say?
Who's right or wrong? I usually don't give that type
of disclaimer when talking to you.
Yeah, I gotta say, yeah, the right people is like the clearly
wrong people, but that's another thing.
That's, that's an interesting thing to ask.
You like something it feels so hard to me in terms of like
being fresh or being exciting. Is that like, the people running
the ad agencies at all these big places Apple like they are like
us? It's not like it was, you know,
I don't know in the 70s or whatever and you were like, you
know, it was your films like taxi driver in the Like to do
you have foot fungus? The only mean it isn't like
that. It's like you put out Moonlight
and then like Samsung the next year will like use the aesthetic
of moonlight to make like a commercial that makes you like
want to cry. Yeah, you know so it's like
during the Olympics was insane. It was the most emotional.
Yeah. Like the commercials like we're
back to bag like tugging at your heart strings and really well
made and cool. I'm saying that that Spike Jonze
FKA twigs thing is really and then they, I Incredible piece of
filmmaking and it has an Apple commercial, so it's like a
little highlights, little aren't like the man when the man is,
well, I'll let you aspire to like the thought of us in a
sense. Like sometimes I'm like, let's
just bring it back to like the 60s and just like tell everybody
that we're advertising, you don't have been like just like
the real like Lucille Ball smoking Philip Morris.
Yeah. It's just like own that this is
a thing because like what I like about that commercial was that
it is just about It's a it's clearly an ad.
Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, it's not like apologizing
for being like an ad in. Yes, of course, better than most
things. Well, that's the crazy thing
about like, SNL used to parity commercials, right?
And, you know, with all their funny parody commercial and
those damn robotic. And and then the commercials
realize that those were funny and now, like commercials feel
like SNL parody, how would you tear a DA Geico commercial, how
would you parity and Axe Body Spray?
Oh, they're making fun of the fact that when you put on Axe
Body Spray, 20 girls jump on you and yet people by Axe Body
Spray, think it's it's so weird. It's like there's a real and it
grosses me out deeply. When I feel like this is going
to be hard for me, I shouldn't say this, but this is I'm never
gonna work anything. Like I'll never be asked but
like Deadpool is so deeply troubling to me, because it's
like a billion-dollar Corporation winking at the
audience, and everyone's just totally cool with and unions.
Like it's a 200 million dollar move.
With a guy being like here's the trailer for my stupid movie,
watch it, you idiots and everyone's like yeah he gets it.
I'm like, does he does Deadpool? Get it?
Yeah, you know, the think that, that makes me look at stuff and
go like, man, like, But the irony is at all that stuff is
like, so toothless. That is such a victory.
In the world, like in the film marketing, they are going, they
are going crazy, and they did it man over Deadpool.
And so, I can't wait to see you like, Other people also try and
go like, yeah, fuck you. You idiots.
Yeah. Come see my movie.
You don't? Like I did.
Like, I did enjoy him. Killing Mario, Lopez on the
first run. Is that one?
How I didn't see it? I didn't see it killed.
Mario Lopez, and one. And only know this.
Because I like to keep it on the hotel screen.
Yeah, check into a hotel just like leave it on the, you know,
Mario Lopez Channel talking about movies.
Yeah. Right.
But I just, I know like the Press.
Yeah, I've seen this, I've like went to your hotel room but it
supports like For it tonight or whatever.
Yeah, I love. I just assumed that was just
happening for no reason. Yeah.
That relates murdered. I love infomercials because it
doesn't apologize for what it is.
Yeah. Yeah.
I was just like it's just so direct and people.
It's so sad. It is sad man.
I don't that I know we both shared a love of phantom thread
which probably talk about fan of Family Guy.
Yeah. I see I get like nervous talking
about stuff like that. Right?
I don't know. I'm just saying because I feel I
think we both feel Well well I don't know.
I mean you're a you're a deeply put together confident person
but like I feel very I will I talk I'll talk with fanfares
like a. I can talk about like as just a
viewer and everything. I feel.
Yeah. I feel like so new to the world
of film and still feel like I'm really, you know, we always talk
about how a lot of a lot of things that like Classics we
just watched. Yeah, it's like, it's like I saw
Casablanca likes. Uh, yeah, this is like Breakfast
at Tiffany's was cool, I guess. Yeah, yeah, we didn't have that.
We didn't grow up watching. No, no.
But I think my father watchcon are on TNT every day for my
entire childhood. Yes.
So much, so that he would refer to Steve Buscemi as rockhound,
yeah race. Because that's the character on
count on. Are you think I'm an Rock hounds
him? Is this time like this.
I grew up wherever in the whatever, but I've missed a lot
of weight. That is incredible man.
What an incredible omage to Europe.
What brought you to this moment? I grew up in whatever.
Doing women, whatever I don't feel like going into the home
Horatio, Alger bullshit. I would just love that, that is
like the perfect narrative opening to a film.
I grew up in where we're at anyway.
And then, anyway, there's a whole like all types of movies.
I'm like Catching up on, you know, like I first moved to LA
and people, you know, just like like shocked that things I
hadn't seen yet. Yeah.
And I was like, from the ghetto, of course, I haven't seen bottle
rocket. Yeah.
Where was I supposed to wear? Where was that going to be
advertised it as like that? Where yeah, yeah.
I feel similarly, in the, in the, in the, the cultural Mecca
of Gloucester Massachusetts, where was I?
I'm just saying. It's like yeah, I don't know.
I Seeing any of that stuff. Yeah, yeah.
I mean it's funny because it is kind of a thing where I think
that is an advantage though. Like just the fact of like
there. Something about the noon even
like a favorite filmmakers, something about that.
Yeah. Totally newness.
The 90 we said like I mean one of our favorites is like Steve
McQueen Quinn and like what metal incredible about him is I
feel is sometimes movies. Feel crowded with people that
are just like, just making movies.
I know that seems silly, but it's like, oh, they've been
fantastic. As of movies and are making
movies. And I tend to like I know, Steve
McQueen has visual artist coming into this new medium, trying to
express these other things in this new thing rather than just
going. Oh I want to just make the
movies I liked when I was a kid. Yeah.
And all that stuff can be a really incredible.
Is probably just defensive of me saying that.
No, but I mean his like advice is like just go and try stuff.
Maybe. I mean I know it sounds like,
you know, advice, maybe you've heard before.
But he's like just I made so many mistakes he would just
something about like what but the mistakes were beneficial in
this real you know. Yeah.
In this way that like he didn't he wasn't like beholding to some
made-up standard of filmmaking. You like rights rights to have
right Rings elements. His writing didn't reflect that
the weight like nothing. He did reflected that, you know?
So it's like, that's why it's I mean, that's why it's new.
I guess I don't know what movies like family like fans.
Right. Yeah.
But I'm trying to say is probably more fun to talk about.
Just some I hate by. No no we can't can't do that.
I don't think you can do that legally.
Everyone's great. Yeah, everyone's in clever ones.
So great. Everyone's doing great.
Yeah, I'm really happy for everybody.
No. I feel great.
What about this? Could this could maybe be
relevant to people. I have no idea.
I feel like we are sort of Fundamentally different people
in very same, sort of, dispositional way our, our race
is in the I don't even consider that, you know what I mean?
Like, in a true way. Like there's so many different,
I can't talk for this part. You can just, you know, you
don't you don't consider my race, bro.
You always say that the differences between us, ya know,
the races that is the least different beliefs different like
I can't say that, but You can say that have a blast doing
this. What what you think that would
be genuine like because you said that II will I will sooner riff
about the shape of water that I really like race for months
before my film comes out. But the point is and it really
is, it's sort of what my my movie is about in a way.
Is, is that difference? I'm saying, I am wired, I'm a
neurotic person. I am.
I am very eyes. Very easily, get nervous and
worried and stressed, I've just wired that way.
I'm just, I've always been wired that way when I was a kid.
Like, in school, I thought like, we went to the, I would go to
the hospital all the time because I thought I had stomach
issues. We did all these tests on them
and it was until 10 years later I was like, oh I was just
nervous, I was just shitting my pants at school every day
because I was a fucking so nervous about getting a B+ or
whatever and you. Yeah it are not that way.
I mean if I can describe you to you right now, You seem at least
to me and to everyone that's ever fallen fallen into your
orbit that that you are impervious to stress.
And I have seen you in very high stress situations.
Not feel stressed to apps to an almost Psychopathic degree and
it's an it's interesting. I mean I looked I in many ways I
Look to You to hope that some of that easiness can rub off on me.
You constantly say to me every time I see you Jen.
Only out of it. Seems you genuinely?
Say this is the happiest I've ever been?
You're saying that all the time. Yeah, no.
You don't even realize you say it every single time I see you.
Yeah, no. I mean, I'm very, very happy.
I don't know. I was for people that for people
that I and I would assume more of the people listening are
probably similar to me than you in that, respect.
What is your advice for for stressful people?
Other than just being born, the way you are.
I mean, do exactly what. What you want to do and I knew
this wasn't going to work, this is just the way you are but
that's the thing just do. Exactly what you want to do.
Like we it's too many people weighing in on what you make and
it's just like ignore that. Hmm.
Like you trace the why stress just doesn't stick to you, has
it always been that? Can you remember a time being
stressed? Um, I think, you know, probably
like early on school for other reasons getting picked on and
that type of stuff until Until I wasn't, you know, it's our
eighth grade and you just kind of like, you know you I don't
know II, just didn't. It's no point is not productive.
Yeah, you don't know me. Like, stress isn't really that
productive because like, all right, you I guess what you can
use it to be productive, you know.
Like even you you wearing xiety, not in a sense of what you're
not just like worried you are figuring out ways to fix things
like it. Yeah.
But I'm not knocking it. My stress like it's productive
so I'll keep it. You know, I mean it's like it's
completely out of my control. If I could snap my fingers and
not be Stressed. I would totally do that.
Yeah, in a second. You would I you have the power.
I know like you could become stressed if if you felt like it
would help you when you're like, this is a great story about you.
This is just like so indicative of the complete psychopath.
You truly are is we were at like dinner once and we were talking
about like how you haven't cried and as long as you can remember.
Yeah. It's like why even cried
anything? He's like, no.
And then, I'm like what it? But for a movie, what if you
were acting in a movie, which you cry.
Then like, oh yeah. Definitely do that.
Like, no, you couldn't, if you've never cried in your life,
you could never cry in a movie and he goes, I'm going to try
it. And you sat there and you cried
you get across from the dinner table just because he wanted to,
he was able to do the thing that Natural Life hadn't given to him
and in 20 years you just insane but, but you know what I'm
saying, you are a person with a Clear Vision of what you want to
do, right? Like know, maybe, maybe not.
No, no I don't have you are man. This is I know that's what this
is. Yeah, yeah I'm saying I'm sorry.
I know I'm saying I just don't want to sound like these wacky
people like this. Just yeah you're you're this
know you're there. Okay.
Yeah but it's I'm being drawn towards it because I am you want
it's like the formalism of this actually like allows me to
interrogate ya know, in a way that we never would because
because if you ever started talking to me like this or vice
versa and real, You know what you would kick me out of your
home. Yeah, go we're doing but let me
just turn this on you just for a second.
All right, this is more fun for me.
It is it scary. Would you feel like I think
something you, you're personally interested in is just the idea
of ambition and wanting to be something.
And are you terrified of it? Is their Terror of not
capitalizing on any potential you have is there.
What do you feel? About now you have, are you are
you like sort of like, I don't know, like, Kobe a score, like
what, you know, in terms of just like, you can't see failure in
front of you, even if you tried or are you okay with failure in
front of you, if you were to find it?
Or I mean yeah. I mean think certain failures
are like, I know it's inevitable, you know, like you
always have like something everything.
It's always in tension. I just know the, my intention
doing things is To either have it like a learning experience or
to really contribute to whatever it is, right?
And I just trust that intention and that's pretty much it.
Like, I know that and that and that manifests itself through
everything like through, who you're around, what you read,
and all of those things like just come from that and like it
really is, I know, that sounds like the bullshit answer.
Yeah. But like, it really is just I
just, it's complete. Trusting that I, you know, I
just try to have that because then it's not like I have
specific career goals and that type of thing but more.
So the goal is to like again I know this may sound like a silly
or whatever but the goal is to have an idea and to be able to
put that idea out in whatever form that is.
I don't need to be in it or whatever.
I just want to be able to get ideas out.
That's the goal, so it's not necessarily a number attached to
a lot of them. Or like a certain criteria is
just the opportunity right have that.
Yeah you know what I mean? And like I trust that is that
does that make sense? I think so.
I think so I'm trying to because I've always felt about you
specifically that like you should you should be you could
be like Tony Robbins or whatever.
That's then you just have sort of innate social skills that
play out really well for people and being productive and I was
thinking, I feel like I am in a lot of ways.
Look to be a almost a student of your disposition.
And I'm just thinking, just trying, I'm trying to steer this
to some way of like, how can we be, how can we make this
slightly productive for anyone listening given that we're not
incredible Lee well-established filmmakers?
Yeah, in this space of like, you know, there's yeah, I know, I
know. But the thing is, you were
feeling the same way working at Foot Locker, right?
I mean that's the truth. Yeah, you were.
You were just as you were just as ambitious.
And hungry and looking, and and satisfied working at Footlocker
as you are now as your, you know, yeah, yeah, I'm Hank Woods
usually like a center of happiness and gratitude and all
that stuff but your family is it God?
Yeah. God family.
You know just you know I'm I trust that I'll work really
hard. I'll trust that I'll take it
like and if it all went away, you would be fine.
And I know you kind of crave that I'm not trying to lead you
but ya know. II.
You saying I crave failing miserably and then having to
build yourself? Oh, that's not what it's fun.
Because then you're like in survival mode and you got to
figure stuff out, right? Like, I respect that, but it's
funny because I mean, you said it, but you also I feel like you
could do almost anything. Well, it in a real sent, no in a
real sense and I'm saying not more.
So, because I do think you are really thoughtful, like,
genuinely very, very And willing to take time and figure things
out which is what like really I mean you look at eighth grade
eighth grade is a product of a thoughtful person of a very
thoughtful director, you know, like someone who actually took
time to like, you know, learn and figure things out and I do
think do you trust in that? That that's what I'm asking.
Do you trust in that ability to like, yeah, I mean I think I
have a good Dodge for this question that I think it's like
it. Is that I think the move is a
little bit about, and as we're talking you probably don't feel
this. But as you're talking, I feel a,
like a slight little sense of panic, listening being the
person listening to this going. Who the fuck are these two
people talking to each other? Rubbing each other's back?
You know? Like and I think that is
slightly what the movie is about.
So I'm saying I know this sounds like a Dodge but like, know
that, whatever thoughtfulness is Necessarily just kind being
thoughtful as you know, it's being full of thoughts.
Thoughts can be anything, you know?
But there's I think there's this increasing increasing sense.
Everyone has of what we're doing now.
Like, what we're doing now, performing a conversation with
each other. Yeah, a bunch of people trying
to act like it's casual yet, it's totally not casual.
It's structured and it's not structured.
We can talk freely but we also have to be completely aware of
who is listening. I do think that is trickled down
because of the internet and social media.
Dia into everyone's lives wherever like the sort of weird
added stress of this conversation is plastered on all
interactions. Now, because of social media
making everything public and that's not good, and not
positive, and it's really stressful, and that's sort of
slightly what I'm trying to attempt to capture both of us.
Really love. Jackie, you know, love the film.
Jackie. And part of the reason is and I
know you are very obsessed with the idea of People being aware
of their own narratives and shaping their own narratives and
that was a thing in the past that was sort of only afforded
or required of really famous people or people, you know, in
real positions of power to have to have their own narrative.
You know what I'm saying? And now it's everyone doing
that. And and and this movie partly is
about well what does it feel like to have to feel like you
have to tell your own story when you're a 13 year old kid with
with really know? A story that's as Grand as the
stakes that are the standards that have been set for how, what
a story should be in the real life in the real world.
It's not really an answer your question, but that is sort of, I
guess what I'm what I'm trying to get at, it's like the same
thing. That's sort of can make
interviews or things a little bit stressful or crazy.
For me is the thing I'm trying to talk about which is how do
you exist as a real person? Yes, exactly.
Just being seen though you're being seen.
And I think the sort of experience that was only
afforded to celebrities or in my case, d-list comedians.
You know, I did stand-up for a long time and my stand-up was
about me being a comedian and me having an audience and me being
watched because that was my experience.
So I had to be honest about it and I, it was I found that 15
year old kids, with felt the same way I did.
Yeah, that's really weird. I was Why do you understand?
Yeah, the idea of having an audience but they do everyone
hold release statement. Yeah exactly.
Like if you look at like, you know, tweets and you know post
on whatever like people speak like yeah they craft things like
you wake up in the morning you have to craft that like yes it's
The Narrative of your experience has to be like because we think
like publicist we think like we have to speak to the Press
because you are you are releasing a statement.
A statement. Yes.
Of your own well-being of your own existence.
Your crafting a. Yeah.
And it's just for and it's for an audience of 12.
Yes, bills and singing audience is an audience.
I'm yeah, people have anxiety to speak in front of, you know,
just a table full of people. Yeah, yes, of course.
And like I think you are someone who is naturally wired where
that works, that sort of culture works with your personality.
I don't, I think you Embrace that and you work sort of
effortlessly with it. And the story of my movie and
sort of me is, that is sort of feeling, like, what does it feel
like to be? I know it seems silly because I
was a comedian but to be naturally introverted in a world
where you are required to be extroverted, you know, that,
that that's what's strange to me.
And also, I will say we, I could say we deeply love and care for
each other. I'm saying that, I think I'm
saying that's why we're walking. That's also, what that's also
why we are, you get the performed version of it is
because it's also like to protect.
We could easily set each other up to like say something.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly who I am and and because
it's like, you got a movie coming out and yeah.
Whatever. Doing the, what's your fault?
So it's like, all right, let's protect each other from.
Oh, yes. Michael for yeah, exactly.
It's hard because because I think like any true friendship,
a lot of it is rooted in, it's not even talking shit.
I think it comes across as being analytical or spent a
dangerously. Yeah of course but the dangerous
thing is I really do think it. Is you try and figure it out and
reconfigure a thing and like you're dissecting you know, to
me more than I think is yeah. And of course some of it is just
pure like the yeah just I don't like it.
You're being assholes. Yeah.
Whatever. But like I do think That you
know, it is important to like, you know, hopefully I'm hoping
every friendship has this even though publicly we have to do
the song and dance sometimes. Okay.
Yeah, feel the need to like I hope that people are, I hope
people aren't just saying everything's good and fine and
all right. And like yeah man well and and
whatever it represents politically, you know, confusing
that for the art itself. I hope people are going like I
don't know what the fuck. you don't mean like, yeah, analyzing
what is wild and we'll probably for tread lightly here but like,
obviously the conversation on Twitter and it makes a lot of
sense that in Trump's America that us of the whatever, you
know, side that maybe isn't that wants to just completely bind
together in the face of this Insanity, that's sort of above
our heads, but it gets a little strange maybe in the artistic
Mystic Community or something, where it feels like we all have
to be fighting for this or all have to be slightly on the same
page with each other. I'm saying.
Yeah, point is to focus clearly a competitive field greatly
integrate epitome. No, no.
And that. Yeah, I mean, the the jealous
angry version of it but it is, it is a competitive field and
like the idea I think the biggest lie then facade, that we
hold up, is this Of light and we all know, even with streaming
there's only a certain number of outlets for like things and we
are fighting for it. Yeah, Vie for the attention of
everybody, you know. And it's competitive.
I'm saying it. Would it would it have been if
as cool if you heard like it's like, Jimi Hendrix being like
just listen to Hey, Hey, at the Beatles.
Great new album. And I mean, it's like that just
deals are Kno just be like, like, I don't want, I don't want
I can imagine, and this is what I would love.
If there was like a third wish, there was like a 22 year old kid
here that was like just getting into the business we could ask
her like what do you think about?
What does it look like to you? What is the culture look like to
you? What does it feel like to be
starting to be creative in this area?
Do we sound like old out-of-touch guys?
Yeah, my basic worry for young people.
It's very, very, very hard. I think for young people are
engaged in the internet to like, take that.
Time to put the work in to make something good and substantial,
which if you're gonna make something substantial, that's,
you know, whether it's an hour-long comedy, special, or a
pilot, or whatever it is, part of the artistic process is
retreating disappearing. We talked about this a lot.
Yeah, disappearing. And then coming to the world
with a thing. Oh I look I just spent eight
months a year. Two years on this thing.
Here it is. And right now this sort of four
kids break trying to break into the business or whatever trying
to get attention. Ian, the impulses, you have an
idea put it out there, get your Twitter going around.
Like you've still feels like a day that you missed opportunity.
Exactly. When like there's nothing more
in my opinion, the best PR for you is good work that you spent
a while making and I just worry that will have sort of the
artistic equivalent of like a 24-hour news cycle, you know?
I mean we're just everything is sort of fresh and topical and
age. Like milk and I don't know what
we talked about. I know you talked about the
value, I think of not being present disappearing in this
world love, you know, of feeling like people are to in our faces
all the time or, I don't know. But I was also crazy about, you
know, the need to perform should be turned off in any way, right?
Like the need to like, you know, you go on stage and you get off.
Offstage. Yeah you know like like you and
perform. I mean just innocent an
Instagram picture is a performance of sort of.
Yeah they talk show appearances all these.
Yeah it's just I don't want to like perform a lot that's why I
can't I'm just not on because it's like yeah the need to that
one second. If someone Google's Rod
Carmichael you want the first three things they say to be
things. You spend a lot of time on your
shower, your special not. Oh, he was throwing, you know, a
bag. Of Skittles at someone's head on
some talk show or whatever they do, on those things like, I'm
gonna get it, like like drug Carmichael, ate a live bird.
It's like, why do these people want to do this but it's also.
Oh, this is that something that's that's the door.
You want to get it ride? Oh my God.
What is it? Okay, trust can sign for this
package. Oh, I'm sorry.
What we're doing it. We're recording something.
I'm sorry. But we support your cause
Pre-show. That's nice.
It's just casually shooting down.
Like some probably really well-meaning chair that coming
toward by a 24. Exactly.
Now that was I thought that was just like, yeah, yeah, that was
I have, I don't know what Christian James was about to
present and I do feel like, I feel like I'm missing out on an
opportunity. Yeah.
It was just someone in a teal shirt and a bow tie.
Oh God. I turned around said hi.
I'm Christian. And James and, and then you and
I was the one I'm a little mad at you, because you cut off.
Yeah, Christian James right. Before we could be missing an
opportunity right now. I don't know what it was.
I was excited to hear. Well, that was a comedian.
That was a good metaphor. I think, for the differences
between us and, and, you know, oh, I wouldn't let the whole
thing play. Yeah, you would have yeah, yeah.
No. There was no, there was no
version of that where I was ready to go.
Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, you would have set them up
with a put pilot or something knowing you.
But but my, my my feeling which is creeping me out, tell me if
I'm wrong and I, you know, is that like people's interest in
celebrities which is just creeping me out a lot.
Is that it's almost like like really famous actors.
People are fans of them as people first and then vaguely
fans of them as actors. It's like it's like well we
really like watching insert really famous person's name
here. We really like they're funny
interviews on the Press tour and then sometimes they were movies.
Kind of cool. Yeah, but like, what we really
like is their Persona and that that is to me like what your
condition to ask? Yeah, that's really scary.
You you know, we allow access, you know what I mean?
Like, like people if you allow that much access then it is you
you put out more content. Probably on IG.
Yeah. Like if you're posting every day
then like yeah, that number adds up.
So you get a buzz in a movie. People exactly.
If you see them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like that's like that's it. I mean but I don't know what the
fuck do I know. I know exactly and that's the
thing is that I we're just guessing idiots.
Talking shit that'll probably be either as a chance from the or
yeah. Will either completely fail and
then that'll be it's thing or will be able to succeed in will
end up being complete Hypocrites.
So there's probably no excited. There's no world in which five
years from now we look back in this without any sense of
happiness. Or we'll just full of regret but
what is what it Barry and Greta talk about.
They just talked about like Sacramento we probably
shouldn't. We shouldn't just thought that
that would have been better. We should do a break for me on
these and Dollar Shave Club that's are always.
And every one of ya me undies and Dollar Shave Club is always
the ones, the honest version of this conversation would be Is
what I know 10 minutes of balance of going like I?
Yeah, exactly. You really want to shape.
You want to put a razor on your face for a dollar.
Yeah. Come on, dude.
So no good about it. I feel I feel.
I feel generally. I feel good about it.
Yeah. Given the given the task of
having to have our, you know what.
It feels like. It feels like like a couple, you
know, like a husband and wife, husband and husband.
Why not that, you know, has been married eight years had a good
sex life and now is forced to have sex on stage in front of a
bunch of strangers. And you know, for the first five
minutes that you gotta find your Rhythm a little bit.
We don't know, you know, it's a whole different context for
lovemaking, but always aware, I know Point have not been aware
of well, then again, if you eat it's me finding out that my
husband this entire time, has been picturing it audience
watching us? Yeah.
It was like crowd noises in the bed.
Who do you think are? Who is the Greta?
And who's the barrier? That's the real question.
It's a good question, you know? I don't know.
I could probably make an argument for either way.
Yeah, I think you got Greta and you, I feel like Greta, I
haven't met or known her but I feel like she's has a very good
disposition. Very.
She seems very have a deep happiness.
Yeah, you've also got a lot of bear, you're probably Greta and
Barry. And I'm like, I'm the Rodarte
sisters, I'm both word artist that starts that's why up.
So, I think maybe a good way to bring it.
Home would be Be talk about something we hinted at it, but
something you recently saw an anything that you really really
love that inspired you. Snoop Dogg has a gospel album
boy. You know that, well, that's kind
of been. I don't know.
It's insane over travel liked it.
That's great. What about you?
I know. I keep thinking about that movie
raw. I say I'm he.
Did you see real raw was incredible?
Yeah, well was such a Julia Decor.
Now she's a French filmmaker was her first movie, which is
insane. Which is Razia, which is really,
and that's the thing. We always buy new thing for us
is that we have because we're both very interested interested
in film and want to get into the film world and do it and like
she was Geppetto. Well, yeah.
I mean, like, like like controlling, like we all like,
there were moments where like the audience, like everyone kind
of held themselves. Yeah.
Look what it was and that feels like an ability that only you
can only get after, like, multiple films to be able to be
so. Oh, in controlling the Frog
dance and tone and what they're feeling.
But yeah, that that really inspired me.
And it's all very, is it. What's nice about being in this
being able to be lucky to be in this world is that it's really
terrifying. Yeah.
I mean I'm saying yeah the people intimidate the shit out
of me you know I mean and and we both know the Saudis who around
our age or a little older and are you know terrifyingly
talented and yeah and I feel like we you know I feel like
I'll speak for myself. I feel like Slightly faking it
till I make it and hopefully we'll make it soon.
But will fake it until the we guessing?
Just but no, but you you made an incredible film for whatever
that's worth. You piece of shit.
Exactly. Yeah.
Just like just 45 minutes of trying days.
Figuring out how to take a compliment.
Yeah. God damn.
It stops fighting this. A lot of fighting Ting
conclusion, I love you and I appreciate you being here and
now let's turn this thing off and talk about what we just did
for an hour and a half. Yeah, hereditary will be in
theaters is incredible. I'm excited to see here.
The credible, it might not be June 6, but that is incredible.
Just a 24 is the best in and works.
They have really cool sweatshirts and we're excited to
be a part of the the family. What are we doing?
What are you? I have no idea what I'm doing me
and he's we're out. Thanks for listening.
Look out for episode 3. Next month, keep sending your
thoughts and ideas to podcast at 8:24 films.com.
The a24 podcast is produced by us a 24.
A special thanks to Doug and Aaron at robot repair, who
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