1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:02,920 Hi, I'm David Lowery and. I'm Anne Hathaway. 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:07,840 And this is the A 24 podcast and I've been doing a lot of 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,360 podcasts lately and and wondering what it's like to be 4 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:14,000 in the moderator's seat. And I realize now that I don't 5 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,280 like it. Is it? 6 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:17,800 Does it feel different than being a director? 7 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,640 I feel I can get away with just you. 8 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:26,680 You've experienced this onset when I just unleash a slew of 9 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,040 words that don't necessarily make sense but hopefully convey 10 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,000 the emotion of what I'm trying to ask for. 11 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,400 And I feel like I can't get away with that behind the microphone 12 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:36,960 right now. Well, one of the things that 13 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,200 I've experienced when I'm, I'm, I find that I'm in like my 14 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,960 favorite kind of deep, deep collaboration with the director 15 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,920 is we, we kind of get to a place where you don't have to say 16 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,800 anything. You just, I can feel when I'm 17 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,720 acting how they feel about a take. 18 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:54,800 And then they'll come out from behind the monitor and just kind 19 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,120 of give me a look and I like raise my hand or, or they'll 20 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,120 come over and, you know, put their head against my head and I 21 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,440 feel like I'm downloaded. And anyway, all this is to say 22 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:07,120 that doesn't work in a podcast. It doesn't work. 23 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,280 In a podcast. You and I just touch heads for 24 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:10,160 a. Half an hour. 25 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:12,720 And everyone's like, well. Yeah, it sounds like an 26 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:16,360 experience. I but I felt that I felt that 27 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,560 that was kind of our our thing on this one. 28 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,160 I felt like you and Michaela connected over the power of the 29 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:28,000 words you both being writers and I felt that you know, given and 30 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,040 we've talked about this given that Mother Mary is an 31 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,800 emotionally inarticulate person. I actually found that it really 32 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:39,680 Hanford my ability to communicate while I was her and 33 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:43,040 I felt like it kind of mother Mary is an expression of the 34 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,960 part of you that sometimes finds it find it difficult to find 35 00:01:45,960 --> 00:01:48,360 your words. So between the two of us, we had 36 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,840 no choice but to trust the wavelength completely. 37 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,400 I require those wavelengths to help me through life. 38 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,400 I wish I could speak the way Sam does. 39 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,480 And in writing that part, and then witnessing the way Michaela 40 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,800 played it, I was living a fantasy life in which I could 41 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,080 say exactly the right thing and exactly the right moment. 42 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:10,680 But you can write the things. I can write it and if I was able 43 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:16,000 to type this podcast out, it would be far more eloquent. 44 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,000 I would have a lot of fun typing a podcast out with you. 45 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,560 It would be a different format. Wouldn't that be neat to just 46 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,800 sit here and just type and with the text could play out and 47 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,840 again, we'd be channelling an interesting wavelength That 48 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,480 would be, you know, what is interesting is I have been going 49 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:34,040 back through old drafts of the script. 50 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,560 I was looking for the very first one from 2019. 51 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:42,440 I found when I started writing during COVID and for some reason 52 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,840 in this version, it was because I was going to the Faroe Islands 53 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:46,720 for a different project. But I was like, what if Sam's 54 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:48,600 house is in the Faroe Islands? I was very inspired by that 55 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,160 landscape, but I don't know if it was because we were all 56 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,880 wearing masks or it must have been. 57 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:59,440 But I decided that in this iteration of the screenplay, 58 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,880 Sam's house had a vow of silence and no one was allowed to speak. 59 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,520 And she had custom index cards or custom stationery. 60 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,640 And no, the only communication was through the written word. 61 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,680 And so it was all the same dialogue, but it had to flow 62 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:18,840 differently because it was all, you know, taking the time to 63 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:20,760 write it. The film also would have been 19 64 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:22,360 hours. Oh, that's why I stopped that 65 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,400 version. That version, that version made 66 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:25,840 it all the way up to the dance scene. 67 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,160 I. Do love that version in my head 68 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,040 in my head and I think I would like to see it in a museum. 69 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:35,000 It's 100% was a museum piece. See, and, and actually, I have 70 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,480 to say that just reminded me of something that I just treasure 71 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:39,920 about you. And it came up earlier in a 72 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,920 different conversation I was having with somebody else about 73 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:45,800 one of the reasons why you're so much fun to work with is that 74 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:50,120 you are so inspired by your surroundings and you have a 75 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,800 certain type of joy in inspiration. 76 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:57,200 Whereas, you know, in other experiences that I've been in, 77 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,960 people aren't really allowed to make suggestions on this one. 78 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,120 You were just down to play, you know, and I, I was, somebody was 79 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,640 talking about like they had an idea for a practical shot where 80 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:09,560 they didn't want to walk. And then 5 minutes later there 81 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,040 was a, there's an apple box with wheels on it. 82 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,040 And you just leaned into it. And then I told the story about 83 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,440 how we were, you know, trying. We had this like elaborate rig 84 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,240 for the red fabric and it just wasn't quite working. 85 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,240 And we thought we were going to have to, you know, use a 86 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,480 computer and we worked out that there would be a ring attached 87 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,840 to an under a, a hidden undergarment and that we would 88 00:04:30,840 --> 00:04:34,000 thread it it through and it wound up working it. 89 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:35,280 Worked perfectly. It was. 90 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,400 There were so many. And you but you went you went 91 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:39,800 with it. I just remember you had just 92 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:41,360 such a like, I'll give it a go, yes. 93 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,040 And let's see where this leads us. 94 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,240 And you weren't, you know, bowed by the pressure of like the 95 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,080 shooting schedule. You were just so driven by this 96 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:55,840 beautiful honoring of the creative impulse. 97 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,360 I find you can't do this on every movie, but this was a 98 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,600 movie where I was always thinking any moment that we are 99 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,040 in is the most important moment and we have to see it through to 100 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,000 its fullest. And if someone comes with an 101 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:12,120 idea bolt of inspiration out of the blue, we need to honor that. 102 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,000 When you think about it from a production side of, you know, 103 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,120 you always pay for something, you know, like it's like, OK, if 104 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,280 we do this now, we're going to have to figure it out tomorrow. 105 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:23,520 What we, you know, if we're, if we're going to spend 2 days on 106 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:25,640 the scene, whatever we were supposed to shoot tomorrow is 107 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,800 going to have to change. But that's OK, we'll figure that 108 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,520 out tomorrow. That's a tomorrow problem. 109 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:36,160 Right now we are exploring together and trying to find this 110 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:37,440 ephemeral thing that we're after. 111 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,440 And sometimes that is, you know, how did they do things 100 years 112 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:43,920 ago in silent films? And other times, it's just 113 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,320 trying to find the emotional voice of these moments that we 114 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,760 were after. Really trying to give those 115 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:55,240 emotions the space they needed to really allow this movie in 116 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,880 particular to manifest the way that it did was really important 117 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,240 to me. I'm actually curious because now 118 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,120 I'm trying to imagine the Pharaoh Islands version and also 119 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,080 I remember I seem to remember A1 draft Sam lived in a trailer and 120 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:10,040 mother Mary and mother Mary like broken through a window. 121 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:16,400 It was Sam's house had burned down and she was living while it 122 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,440 was being rebuilt. She was living in a trailer 123 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,360 outside. And yes, Sam and Mother Mary 124 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:22,800 climbed in through the through the window. 125 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,200 So I was wondering about that because, you know, I've just 126 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,560 spoken about how you're, you're driven by this honoring of the 127 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,400 creative spirit. You've written countless drafts 128 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:37,400 of this from 2019 onward. Do you ever stop and think I'm 129 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:42,760 asking too much of the audience? Like does that impact your your 130 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,640 North Star or, or your vision for the movie? 131 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:47,840 Or do you, is it just you? Is it, you know what? 132 00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:49,400 This isn't quite what I want to say. 133 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:57,320 It's me, almost always it's me. It's how can I achieve clarity? 134 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:01,520 How can I find, and I mean it goes to the audience as well, 135 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,280 'cause I'm thinking about how I would how I would receive this 136 00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:06,640 movie if I were sitting in the dark, if I were not the one 137 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,960 writing it, if I were an audience member, how would these 138 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,720 things that I'm conceiving of arrive in my periphery? 139 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,160 How would I take them in? How would I see it? 140 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,360 And as roundabout as I may be in getting the point, I always want 141 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:26,520 to make sure that I'm clear and lucid and that if someone is 142 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,400 willing to see the answer right in front of them, that it is 143 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:31,680 available to them. We are never trying to hide the 144 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:33,800 ball with this film or with any of my films. 145 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:39,800 We are always trying to express something, maybe succinctly 146 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:44,480 isn't quite the word, but it's true in spirit In spirit. 147 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,800 That hasn't been my experience of the word but no, no, but to 148 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:54,040 but I love what you said about clarity keeps coming up and to 149 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,360 and I think to express something undeniable. 150 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,360 Yeah, you know, and that's that's one of the things that 151 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:04,000 scared me the most Once I kind of charted my course for how I 152 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,000 was going to play this character was I knew I was making a choice 153 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,080 that not everybody would understand. 154 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:16,080 And that was to play Mother Mary as so broke and she didn't have 155 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,600 any fight left in her. And I thought, I can't I can't 156 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:23,280 believe I'm I know this is technically wrong, like this is 157 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,560 a wrong film choice to make. Like this is a 2 hander. 158 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,200 I've got to I've got to have more bounce, more fight more 159 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:30,000 spit, more vinegar, more all these things. 160 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,559 But it felt like such a betrayal of where the characters actually 161 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,559 at. And it was so. 162 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,760 It was so scary to trust that the audience was going to have 163 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:43,760 to wait over an hour into the movie before they understood 164 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,960 what was really going on with her and that what they have seen 165 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,320 will actually drop to another level and it will be earned. 166 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,480 But it was really hard believing that the audience would grace 167 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,520 her what they needed to grace her. 168 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,320 And I just knew that I would be asking the audience to watch 169 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,000 Mother Mary kind of just get annihilated by Sam for the 1st 170 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,280 45 minutes of the movie. And thank goodness for Michaela 171 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:09,960 Cole, who made it so entertaining. 172 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:12,680 It's entertaining. But that, that, that, that is 173 00:09:12,680 --> 00:09:15,920 actually is a pleasure watching a pop star get humiliated like 174 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,600 that. I think I'm a big believer that 175 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,880 in the idea that all of the implicit elements of the movie 176 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,320 are there from frame 1. And so even if the audience 177 00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:31,560 doesn't know the actual events that led to Mother Mary's state, 178 00:09:31,560 --> 00:09:38,720 when we meet her, there is a sense of, well, there's I think 179 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:43,640 a great deal of empathy for her because because we've seen we've 180 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,240 seen where she came from and we see where she is when she gets 181 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,800 to Sam's house. And in the ellipsis between 182 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,160 those two moments, we are invited to wonder what may have 183 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,240 happened. And I, as an audience member, 184 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:58,320 naturally approached that with great empathy. 185 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:00,320 Like, how could this have happened? 186 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:06,360 And I think that you were so you were so I loved. 187 00:10:06,560 --> 00:10:11,480 I remember watching you walk up the stairs in the barn the first 188 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:17,920 time and realize like I realized how that was going to play once 189 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:22,040 we understood why what happened, but also just seeing that by 190 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,440 itself was heartbreaking. Just seeing this person that we 191 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,080 again, I'm projecting on set right now, but like when I'm 192 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,840 there watching that happen, knowing that we'll have 20 193 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,680 minutes earlier seen you on stage an utter rock star. 194 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:42,880 I naturally gravitate towards, yes, questions, but also a 195 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:47,440 tremendous amount of just sorrow that she has found herself in 196 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:49,600 this place. And curiosity comes second. 197 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,680 Curiosity about what that actually was is secondary to the 198 00:10:52,680 --> 00:10:56,000 empathy. I, I think that what I'm 199 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:01,240 connected to is, is just the, the fear of not making the easy 200 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,480 choice that would have sort of let some of the tension for the 201 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:07,760 audience and said like this is familiar. 202 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:12,760 Like, yes, you're watching, you're watching 2 people that 203 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,000 these two women engage in gamesmanship, but that would 204 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,680 have felt like a betrayal of the screenplay to me because you 205 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:22,160 didn't write a game. Mother Mary's not playing a 206 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,480 game. She's fighting for her life and 207 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:29,480 she's past the point of, of mounting any kind of defense or 208 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,840 offense. She's just kind of like she's 209 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:37,040 just so storm tossed, you know, And, and so I guess I guess what 210 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:41,120 I'm getting at is I had such faith in your artistry and like 211 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,760 your vision and that you were going to bring the whole thing 212 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,240 home that I was able to take that leap. 213 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:50,920 That felt very scary for me to to not like I said, to not make 214 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,520 the choice that I know would have put a lot of people or 215 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:54,960 right. I imagine a lot of audience 216 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,560 members at ease. We weren't making like a series 217 00:11:57,560 --> 00:11:59,120 of like little moments. We were making a whole. 218 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,720 Film, yeah, I remember writing the writing the screenplay and 219 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:08,360 realizing like I could in the film at a certain point and that 220 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,840 would yield a movie that would be very enjoyable in which we 221 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:16,120 could engage in that ratatatat banter, that the potential is 222 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,680 there for that. But I wanted to push further and 223 00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:21,120 I wanted the movie to dig deeper. 224 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:28,640 And and as a result, the potential for that is it's 225 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,040 always there, but that's not what the movie is about. 226 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,400 And the great joy of this movie was that we were able, we knew 227 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,120 that we were heading towards something deeper. 228 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:41,600 And every time that it felt like it might veer in that direction, 229 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,120 we could enjoy it when it did. There's some moments in the 230 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,560 movie where I just am in just utter heaven watching you and 231 00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:48,640 Michaela go back and forth when the rhythm picks up. 232 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,840 But that's not this movie. That's not it's inclusive of 233 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,160 that, but it's going so much further than that. 234 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:58,600 And it was, I remember the moment very clearly when I was 235 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,680 writing it and just thinking like, I'm writing what could be 236 00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:03,080 the ending of the movie right now. 237 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,280 And it, I don't want to spoil it for people who haven't seen it, 238 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,000 but Michaela sort of turned, I turned that into a monologue 239 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,800 that Michaela gives and, and realizing this is not the 240 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:14,040 ending. This is the midpoint. 241 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,600 I have a question because I've spoken to you about how I I've 242 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:23,760 felt transformed by this experience as a person, as a 243 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,920 performer, as a collaborator and an artist. 244 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,800 I'm sure you find yourself transformed by all the films 245 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,760 that you make, and so I'm curious, how precisely has 246 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,640 Mother Mary transformed you? I think I might be able to give 247 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,840 a better answer to that after I've made one more movie and 248 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:44,880 seen in the ways in which it's manifested. 249 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:49,400 But it's made me much more considerate, really. 250 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:55,480 Yeah, I think that. I mean, I've always been. 251 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,440 I've liked to think of myself as an empathetic director. 252 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:08,320 Yes, you're a Texas gentleman. And and yet I, I think there's a 253 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,440 point. Well, let me think of how to say 254 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,120 this. I've always hidden behind the 255 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:17,200 camera. I like to be close to my cast. 256 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,440 I like to be collaborating with them right up close, but I like 257 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:21,600 the camera to also be very close. 258 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,600 So we're usually all together and I'm my comfort zone is 259 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,280 behind the camera and I love picking out lenses. 260 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,080 I love designing shots. I love blocking choreography. 261 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:40,120 And with this movie, I wanted to share in the experience that you 262 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,880 and Michaela were having and participate in that and, and 263 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:49,720 learn from that. And I don't know what it was 264 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,880 like from your perspective, but I always felt like whether it 265 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,400 was a literal circle on the floor or a metaphorical one that 266 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,480 we were still cocooned within, I always felt like I was 267 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:04,240 participating in that exchange of energy on set and feeling it 268 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:08,560 and understanding your process, both of your processes, in a way 269 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,560 that I've never have on any other film before. 270 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:16,440 And that opened my eyes to, I mean, it sounds almost silly to 271 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,760 say this, this many films in, but it opened my eyes to what it 272 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:25,120 means to act. And I really believe I will 273 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,000 carry that forward on every movie I make. 274 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,680 And, and the process with which I engage with, with a cast and 275 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,440 with our collaboration on the text will be incredibly 276 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,720 transformed from the experience we had together on this film. 277 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:43,520 I have always been someone who I'm quick to discard dialogue 278 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:48,400 and going into this movie I wanted to put a priority on the 279 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,640 dialogue. It was written to be, you know, 280 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,680 there's a lot of dialogue in it and is there, you know, a decent 281 00:15:55,680 --> 00:16:01,040 amount and I so I knew I was going to be respecting the text 282 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,040 more than I have in previous films from the get go. 283 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,520 I always think about pre production as the time where you 284 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,800 embed within yourself all of the answers that you're going to 285 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:13,120 need while you're shooting the movie. 286 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:13,920 Yes. Completely. 287 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,080 Totally. You, you just, you just ingrain 288 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,040 them all on yourself and you won't remember them, but when 289 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:19,520 you get to set you will know what to do. 290 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:21,880 Totally. One of the things that I I, I 291 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,760 try to explain to directors who don't know me is that I, I 292 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,800 interrogate everything in prep. Like everything, even lines that 293 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,200 I absolutely love. I just ask every single 294 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:32,880 question. I hold everything up to the 295 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,040 light. I poke holes in everything and I 296 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,760 think it, I know for a fact it's freaked some of them out. 297 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,120 And I've had to say to them, I do this because I'm not going to 298 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:43,760 ask a single question when we're on set. 299 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,440 Like when we're on set, I want to be your first Lieutenant. 300 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,280 I want to execute your vision. I just want to hit the ground 301 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,720 running and know exactly what we're doing and why we don't 302 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:53,960 have time for my questions then. So yeah. 303 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,720 So I agree with you about like finding the answers in in pre 304 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:57,880 production. It was. 305 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,680 I remember that as well. I remember like we went, even 306 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:02,120 though we knew we weren't changing anything, we went 307 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,480 through and talked about every single line we had. 308 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:06,280 Those incredible. Lines more than once. 309 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,240 Yes, exactly. We had some we we we did that 310 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,680 classic thing that you read about that I've never had the 311 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,839 luxury of doing before, which is you tape out the set in an empty 312 00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:19,960 in an empty room and you have some stand in props and we 313 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,440 weren't in the actual space, but we're going to have a strange 314 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,520 photocopy of it. And we were able to just 315 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,680 investigate right that we. Were on that huge sound. 316 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,080 Stage, yeah, which is where we ultimately shot a lot of the 317 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,120 scenes from the movie that took place on a stage. 318 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:35,960 But at that point it was completely empty and and we had 319 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,880 a couple tables, a couple of mannequins, but it was we were 320 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:42,200 beginning to see the movie come to life in terms of how we might 321 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,560 block it. And we also, I think, spent a 322 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,960 lot of time just sitting around on that set listening to music, 323 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,720 which was a huge, a huge part of the rehearsal process. 324 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,200 I don't know about Michaela. I had a song that became my my 325 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:57,880 touchstone song, and this one did you. 326 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:05,440 I had like my Touchstone record, which was it came out while we 327 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,480 were in prep and I just listened to it nonstop, which was Ke$ha's 328 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,720 gag order, which was great. It was a she produced it with 329 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,800 Rick Rubin and I was reading Rick Rubin's book on creativity 330 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:21,280 at the same time, and that record really captured the 331 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:25,480 spirit of that, of that summer of that experience for me. 332 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,280 Beautiful. My my go to song was the 333 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:30,840 apocalypse song by Saint Vincent. 334 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:35,960 Oh yes, I I just that song will forever be fused with the with 335 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,800 the barn for me. And it became, I don't know, it 336 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,560 just became this, I learned it so well that I felt like I could 337 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,360 see it dimensionally, like I could see the topography of it. 338 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,680 And there would, and there's certain, you know, chord changes 339 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,720 in it that every time I think about it, like it lift, it would 340 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:55,360 lift me up and drop me off someplace else. 341 00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:58,560 And it wound up becoming like my dance partner, the unseen dance 342 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:00,400 partner in, in so many of the scenes. 343 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaking of dance partners, do you want to read the? 344 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,280 Descriptor or the I've been, I mentioned that I was going back 345 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,200 through old drafts of the script, but those were all the 346 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,640 old, old ones. And I was, we've been talking so 347 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:17,200 much about about the performances and in particular 348 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:21,680 the choreography in the barn. And I was just curious what how 349 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,760 it was described in the screenplay that we locked in 350 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,120 late April of 2023. Yes. 351 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:36,040 And so I've got it right here, and I will just narrate it, Sam 352 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,240 says. Because I don't want to break my 353 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,000 streak. Mother Mary says. 354 00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:44,480 Of what Sam says of not listening to your music. 355 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,720 Mother Mary pauses, thinking about how much she's going to 356 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,200 let that sting, how much she's going to take the bait. 357 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,280 And then, without a word, she closes her eyes, collects 358 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,000 herself. She finds her starting position, 359 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:02,080 and she begins to dance. Her bare feet clap, then pound 360 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,440 against the wooden floor. As she goes through her paces, 361 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,480 she kicks up dust from the floor. 362 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,520 It shimmers in the air, giving volumes of the light around her. 363 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,200 Without any music, the dance seems like work. 364 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,000 The effort to move, the way she's moving, to lift off from 365 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,880 the floor to achieve that state of grace she's reaching for. 366 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,720 But she does achieve it. Those thundering footsteps, the 367 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,760 heavy breaths, they transform her. 368 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:29,320 Sam watches, at first bemused, then something else, transfixed. 369 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,280 Mother Mary leaps up, but then she lands too hard, stumbling. 370 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,920 Her knee goes in a weird direction, looks like it's about 371 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,360 to snap. She cries out in pain. 372 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,360 Sam rises and said, well, that's but Mother Mary holds up her 373 00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:44,120 hand. I'm not done yet. 374 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,920 She catches her breath, pops her knee back into place, and then 375 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,000 rises and continues marking the choreography, slicing through 376 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,080 the air like a knife one moment in a hammer the next, her skill 377 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,480 and precision pulling the music out of the silence. 378 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,600 She leaves the stage behind, advancing through the space, 379 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,800 circling Sam as the as the performance builds to a peak. 380 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,120 And then she's finished. That's it. 381 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,360 How do you feel that compares to what Danny and I came up with? 382 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,360 I think that covers the first third of what you and Danny came 383 00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:24,080 up with, and I love that. I love that we took what was on 384 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,640 the page and use that as a jumping off point. 385 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:32,400 And it's so it's so fun to go back and look at that and 386 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,880 realize, yeah, yes, that is a description of the scene in so 387 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,000 many words of what happens. But the spirit that comes 388 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,480 through that is hinted at in that text. 389 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,720 You and Danny really took that and and ran with it. 390 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:52,760 And I don't know, I mean, read, we read the script and knew that 391 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:53,760 that was going to be a centerpiece. 392 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,360 But if anyone else, I don't know if it would read that way. 393 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,560 And yet, when you watch the movie, that is the heart of the 394 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,080 film. I think this film has has many 395 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:08,360 hearts. I feel like that to to play a 396 00:22:08,360 --> 00:22:10,240 character that struggles with words. 397 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:16,320 That dance became so important to hinting at what was going on 398 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,280 inside of her. And one of the lines that you 399 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,240 wrote, which is now in the the scream now in the final film, as 400 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,200 I can't eat, I can't heal. And I just remember thinking, 401 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:33,480 somebody who's been kind of tortured by this feeling for 402 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:40,920 years and is so decimated, who really can't in a way, trust her 403 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,720 own mouth. Like there's this. 404 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,880 She, she can't trust the words that come out of it. 405 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,040 She's afraid to speak. She's afraid of lying. 406 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:50,920 She's afraid of what the truth might be. 407 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,440 She, she's just, it's so bottled up. 408 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,800 The only release she has is, is is this dance? 409 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:02,240 And dance was her first love, but now even but the spirit 410 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,800 that's come to claim her is also claiming that, and that it's 411 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,240 this thing inside of her that takes over. 412 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,240 And that became so much of the thrust of what Danny and I were 413 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,000 working on was how Mother Mary can't. 414 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:14,680 And that's one part of the reason, I think, why everybody's 415 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,840 afraid of her singing her song and exposing her truth, because 416 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,400 it goes to this primal, ugly, brutal place that nobody 417 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,560 associates her with. That she knows she can't do 418 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:26,680 that. It's not allowed that it would 419 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,760 frighten people. It's dangerous. 420 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:33,960 Yeah, and it's not her. And people would reject it and 421 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,920 be, and she would alarm people. And since that, she's kind of 422 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,960 crafted her identity as a safe space for so many people. 423 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,360 That would be a violation. And she can't bear that thought. 424 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,760 So in a way, Sam's the first person who sees the dance and 425 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:54,880 isn't frightened by it. And it was, it was amazing 426 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,600 getting to create it with Danny all of those weeks and months in 427 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,640 the in the dance studio to learn all of those movements to kind 428 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,680 of first build an iconography and then tear it apart. 429 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,400 Yeah. And it was truly, I always 430 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,520 thought of it as like watching the two of you build a 431 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,360 vocabulary. And when you think about in 432 00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:17,480 those terms, this is a movie, especially in that first half 433 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,360 where Sam gets a lot of monologues. 434 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,200 But that's Mother Mary's monologue. 435 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,200 Yeah, yeah. And then and then Mother Mary 436 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,640 finally does get a monologue at the end and you realize that she 437 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,120 is an absolutely bereft soul. And that's what you're watching. 438 00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:35,440 And she's, like I said, she's she's not there to play games. 439 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,640 She's not there to have fun. There's no subterfuge. 440 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:44,640 No, she's she, She, she. The only thing she has is her is 441 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:49,240 her weeping, bleeding heart. I love weeping, bleeding hearts. 442 00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:53,560 They make me feel they're your. Happy place they. 443 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:54,480 Make. You feel seen. 444 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,400 One last thing I have to say, because we are wrapping up, I 445 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,560 just have to give a shout out to the Nick Cave book, Faith, Hope 446 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:07,280 and Carnage, which became kind of a touchstone text for all of 447 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,880 us on this, on this film and informed, I know it informed 448 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:12,080 you. Is there anything you want to 449 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,960 say about that book? That book has brought, I'm not a 450 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,480 particularly religious person, but has brought spirituality 451 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,640 back into my life. And and I don't want to define 452 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,280 that. I don't, I don't want to put a 453 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,520 name to it, but it did introduce me or reintroduce me to a 454 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,520 concept that there is more to our universe than what we 455 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,360 behold. And it's something that I've 456 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:44,520 read and reread, but it certainly played a huge part in 457 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,560 in the digging deeper that this movie required of all of us. 458 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,520 When I was writing the script and reading that book, there was 459 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,840 an inquiry at the core of that conversation that Nick Cave is 460 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,880 having. And I wanted this movie to be 461 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,320 possessive of that same spirit of inquiry. 462 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,240 And it's one that I will, that I'm carrying with me as we, as 463 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,040 we walk out of the studio. It's something that I I, I will 464 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,800 never shake. So I guess I guess ending by 465 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:15,640 thanking Nick Cave is a pretty good way to. 466 00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:17,880 It's a great way to go. Great way to leave the studio.