Hey, welcome back to the 824 podcast.
After a brief Hiatus. We're excited to kick things off
with a conversation between filmmaker David Lowery, an
actor, producer and genre impresario Elijah Wood.
They recently met up in La where Elijah came prepared with a list
of all his unanswered. Questions about the Green
Knight. Like why was Dev?
Patel? Photographed on set, holding a
giant bleeding heart? We hope you enjoyed the episode
and look out for many more in the months to come, right?
So Hi, I'm Elijah Wood and I'm David Lowery and we are talking
on the a24 podcast is a 24 podcast indeed.
Yeah. Hi David.
It's so great to see it's so good to see entire ever.
It has been. I feel like it's been, well,
it's over two years because it's certainly pre-pandemic.
Yeah, sometime pre-pandemic. I was out in LA and yeah, we
hung out, but I don't know. Time time means nothing anymore.
Dude. I know well and wasn't Green
Knight. I mean speaking of time.
Green Knight was supposed to come out a year before.
Yeah, it was supposed to come out in May of 2020, right and
that very quickly fell by the wayside.
Yeah, as we approach. That release date a lot of
things are supposed to happen in 2020.
But yeah, it definitely it got pushed along with most movies.
Yeah, and now, here we are. And like, it feels like I can't
imagine a world in which it had opened then, you know.
Oh, it's so strange like, in spite of the fact that I hate
the fact that we've all had to go through this together.
I can't imagine being in a position where we hadn't if that
makes sense. So, totally did anything change
about the film in that time, or your feelings about it.
It's a unique thing. And I've not heard any
filmmakers really talk about this.
Yeah, where they've made something, they've gone through
that process. We all know what that process is
like and then there's this sort of anticipation of sort of
giving birth to that project. And then to have that, No
delayed in that way for quite a long time.
What it, what was that? What did that feel like?
And how did how did your relationship to the film?
I'm just, I'm just so curious. It was really somewhat profound
because normally when you make a movie released, when I make a
movie on a philosophical level, I feel it's important to let go
of it. Yeah.
And hand it over to the world as it were.
Yeah. At which point my relationship
with it, sort of ends, never completely, but it's like, it's
not just mine and he More. It's better for my role in to be
very minimal. Yeah, so to finish a movie and
make that, you know, make my peace with it and let it go and
then have no one see it like, no, it's the exchange doesn't
take place. You just cast off into the
ether. Yeah, was very strange.
I think ultimately was very healthy, but it was a very
strange, you know, really brings up that question.
Like any often movie doesn't plane from an audience.
Does it actually exist? Yeah, the old tree falling in
the forest precisely. Yeah.
The other thing that had happened was that I Finishing
the movie while we were in prep for another film.
It's a really just like racing to do two films at once.
On either end, burning the candle at both ends.
That's stressful. It was stressful in a good way.
I have time. I thought it was in a good way,
but looking back. And I'm like, okay, I see the,
the unhealthiness of this. I'd be like location scouting.
Like, in the woods of British Columbia and then go to this
like, little hotel and evening, and editing the movie on my
laptop and like it, definitely. I thought it was very doable.
You know, you look at folks like Berg who have, like two movies
come out in one year and you're like, it's got to be doable.
Sure, but I see the downsides of it.
Hmm. So after you know, we're racing
to finish it and it's Skywalker Ranch when we therefore the
sound mix. Yeah.
Oh man, it's the best place. We're racing to finish.
It was going to screen at South by Southwest and wow, which
we've been great because I my first film satanic played there
and I had another movie play there since but it wasn't going
to be the completely finished version.
We were still working on a couple things, but it was pretty
close. And then we got the news that
Tom Hanks had covid which was I think the moment when we all
sort of realized like this could be bigger than we were all
pretending. It was going to be, you know, a
day later South by Southwest was cancelled and then, pretty
quickly after that, it seemed even though we didn't make the
decision to seem pretty clear that the movie wasn't going to
open in May as soon as fast and the furious and James bond-like
got pushed. It was like the writing was on
the wall. Yeah, so we weren't done.
We like we Still had like several days of mixing to go.
And so, we just stopped. Well, we're in this, like,
little bit of limbo where the movie was almost done, but not
done enough to where we could like deliver it.
Yep. And everything, just kind of
like, got quiet, you know, by necessity.
Like it was a rare instance in which like the bond company,
which you usually have for an independent film was like, okay,
you don't have to deliver on this date, you know, and so
then, like a month later, I, you know, was talking to Toby my
producer. Some of the folks at 24 about
some of the visual effects. We wanted to keep working on and
I opened up the edit and saw a little change.
I wanted to make like seven frames.
Yeah, and I made that change was like, okay, real one is now
unlocked and which from being locked unlocked and then once
that happened, it just was like a Cascade of like seeing other
little changes I can make. And because I'd taken like a
month away from me, where I wasn't like focusing on two
movies at once. I was suddenly able to see it
with like a clear perspective. Of which is so rare, incredibly
rare that never you never get that objective perspective on
film when you're working on because you're so in there.
Always in the weeds have until the point.
When it gets released. Totally one of the things that
happened while I was racing to finish, it was that I grew
almost arbitrarily afraid of a running time that was over two
hours worried that I was going to bore people, or that it was
just going to outstayed, its welcome.
Yeah. We're one thing or another and I
just started just chopping away and just like, very like,
Actually cutting anything that had any dead air in it or
anything. That just was not contributing
to the forward, momentum of the story.
But the problem with, as I make movies where the they don't,
often have a lot of momentum. I mean they do but it's a very
leisurely sort of momentum. Sure.
And so I was sort of just hobbling myself in a way because
the movie was always going to be what it was going to be.
The pace was always built into this Chute like, you know, I
often when I'm writing my scripts.
I'll describe how long a shot is going to last, right?
Right? And I just got cold feet at some
point in the editorial process and was just what I described as
hate cutting where I'm just like, I'm like, this isn't this
isn't working. I'm just going to cut this out
and never look at it again. Yeah, so when I went back to
revisit the movie, I just was like, oh, it's too short.
There were a lot of scenes that we shot that were removed for a
good reason, but then, there are a lot that I just arbitrarily
taken out just to help contribute to that faster
running quicker running time. And so I started to put those
things back in and let the Movie breathe a little bit more, and
it became something that wasn't that different in theory from
the version that we'd fit almost finished in March, but it just
became a better representation of everything we had tried to
do. Yeah.
And all like, friends of mine would watch the new cut as it
came together and not be able to pinpoint exactly what it was
that was different. But they would say, like it just
meant more like everything that I liked about it before.
Now, I like more because it just resonates greater clear.
Their depth, probably character moments that were reinserted,
definitely, definitely. And I'd cut it to the quick to
such an extent that you just don't have time to process their
and things. Yeah, and now let you know,
they're all these scenes that were kind of there.
But now they're really there and they mean more and great.
What an incredible lesson to learn and for the like a
situation that is uncontrollable to have given you, the
opportunity to learn that lesson or to experience that, you know,
everyone over the 18 months has been looking for as many Silver.
Linings as possible, never used the term Silver, Linings, as
often as I have and this is this is one of them.
Yeah. This was definitely one of them,
that's kind of incredible. And I get that, I think, you
know that that arbitrary feeling of making something pop or have
a faster running time. I get I get that.
That makes a lot of sense but you know something will also
like you're saying will be what it needs to be.
It will then you kind of have to serve what it wants to be.
And I've Been in that place before where I just feel like I
owe something to an audience. Like, I owe them like, you know,
a quicker Expedition from the cinema.
I don't know what it is. Well, but what I owe them is a
good movie. Like, what I owe them is not
like a short movie. It's just a good movie.
And sometimes it's, it's really especially when you have like, a
lot of voices in the room, or when you have an impending,
release date or whatever, whatever the pressures, maybe
you just start to get self-conscious of course, and it
can sometimes push you in the wrong direction.
Well, that's incredible. That's amazing.
That you that you were given that kind of gift.
Actually of objectivity to be able to look at something in a
way that you wouldn't have otherwise and and the movie
would be great. Undoubtedly without you having
done that, but it may not have been as resident.
I don't think just really interest this very powerful.
It's a, it's a powerful resonating movie and I now can't
imagine it not feeling that way. I don't really feel like it's
one of those situations where It's worth putting out that
alternate cut like saying, like here's the version that there's
not there's nothing to be gained from that totally.
Yeah, because it's not that profoundly different but it is
like on a level of process a really good reminder of how much
like four frames can make a difference.
Yeah. How much like an extra 12 frames
at the end of a shot can have a ripple effect that affects
everything else. Easy.
And what is what is the actual difference of running time?
It's about 10 minutes and some of that is The accumulation of 8
or 12 frames and then and then there's one scene that got.
I let it I put the whole scene in as opposed to like this
fragment of it. That was in there before was a
scene with the list of a Candor, right.
And up until sitting by a river in needed that scene.
I have there's one thing I watched the movie again.
Laughs seen it three times. Now.
I'm amazing. It's so good.
But one thing I still haven't been able to figure out because
there's it doesn't seem like there's any resolution to it is
the opening shot. What building is that?
That is on. On fire.
I feel like maybe I'm dumb and I've like, totally missed like a
really obvious thing because then there's the couple that
come in and retrieve the horse. Yeah, man.
Draws his sword and runs and then we pull back to reveal, Dev
being woken up. So what, what did I miss?
I wish I had a copy of the poem, so I could just read the opening
lines of the poem bulk. The beginning of the poem starts
with the fall of Troy Oak, how the scattering of the heroes
from that great Siege gave birth to All of the great empires of
the western world and the ideas of heroism, that begat all of
the Arthurian Tales, well the theory and legends.
And so I wanted to reflect that idea.
Very abstractly. And so, you know, Dev Patel
wants to be a hero. Yeah.
He wants to be like the traditional, you know, great
night who's going to go chop off the Giants head and when the
lady and all of those things. And so to begin with this idea
of like this, Image. That is a adjacent to him,
having a dream. So it almost feels like a dream.
He's having of a, you know, some heroic Act of old but on a
literal level. What's happening is you know, a
house is burning down and a young man is absconding with a
woman and you hear a battle happening on the other side of
the wall, which is really just like I was like, okay, if we
boiled the Trojan War down to like a farmhand running away
with the farmer's daughter and setting fire to the house and
the farmers in the background. Screaming like this house of the
fire. That's the literal version of
what's happening. But those characters are meant
to suggest like Paris and Helen of Troy in the credible in the
background. You hear this farmer yelling, if
you listen really closely just yelling Helen at the top of his
lungs. And then we soak.
And then we pull back and then we're in the devs world, but
it's just like to suggest like that the legacy of heroism that
dev has character thinks he needs to participate in.
Right? That is awesome.
Thank you. That's incredible.
Never read the Original poem, I I clearly need to is that
something that you read as a kid was I knew about it as a kid
because I was really into the, all the Arthurian lore because
of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.
That was like what got me out right?
Grail biology, right? And so I knew most of those
Legends by didn't read the original text until I was in
school. So in high school, we read Le
morte d'arthur. Although I'm sure it was a very
truncated translation and then in college my first semester of
English literature, we read like Odyssey, The Aeneid, all of the,
all of the Great Western, you know, poems, that begat the
literary tradition that we now major in worldwide.
Yeah. And the Sir Gawain and the Green
Knight was the last thing we read, I knew the story.
So it was like I was kind of able to Coast through it because
of that show. And I was just like I'd read way
too much, right, you know the beat.
Yeah, exactly. But it nonetheless like reading
it, it definitely it resonated with me.
Even then, you know. No, 18 or 19 or however old.
I was at that point. And the thing that I liked about
it was that aside from like all the you know, sex and violence
which the poem is full of is like the concept of this night
going on a quest the end of which has to be if he succeeds
his own death. Yes, and of course in the poem,
he doesn't actually died. He gets let off easy, but the
idea that on events in the poem in the poem as in the film, you
know, he flinches when the Green Knight raises his axe.
Yeah. And then the green eyes like you
sir you Flinch and you know, you I didn't, you know, show signs
of fear when when I faced your blow a year ago and and so then
go and like steals up his courage and like prepares
himself. And the Green Knight, you know,
brings the ax down again, but just give someone like a paper
cut. And he's like, because you
showed courage. Now, I'm going to let you go and
then he goes into like three pages of, you know, a third act
classic. Third act, Exposition dump,
which was, which was a problem with narrative.
Even, you know, 700 years ago, where he explains that, this
whole thing was a plot by Morgan Le Fay to scare Guinevere to
death, right? And he sends God, went home and
got ones. You know, he taken the belt off.
That was the thing, like you taken off the belt, that was
like the charm that would protect him against harm so he
could face him as a man. Sure.
And he's like just wear that forever more as a sign of your
mortal foibles, you know, he's in spite of being a great night.
You were still susceptible to fear just like any other man.
Yes, and he goes back to camp. With this green belt and all of
the nights and Camelot, decide to also wear green sash to
remind themselves of how capable, they are.
Ya in their own sense of, you know, defects.
Yeah. As it were as easy as fears and
that's how the poem ends. Wow, which is almost all the
movie ends. I just wanted to take a nice one
to turn the knife, a little further.
It's the ultimate test that he's given and the sort of glimpse of
Allah. Life that he could have for
making the wrong choice. It's really beautiful.
You know, it's definitely like, you know, if he really had to
make a hard Choice. He should have seen like a great
life, a great life laying out ahead of him.
That he then has to know, turn his back on to make the right
choice. But to me, it was important to
see. It's not meant to be literal.
It's not a literal thing. Like he could have gone off and
been a king of Benin, great king, but I Heart.
He would have known that he'd gotten their through deceit, and
it was important to see, like a literal representation of that
deceit, eating away at him. I also interpret it as him
seeing his truth in terms of if he were to carry on in the path
that he's on its relatively arrogant.
It's relatively self-centered. He wasn't ready to accept love.
He wanted all of the great things of being king or being a
Knight without Out what it really takes to be a true.
Good human. Yes, and I think what, he what
my interpretation of it is that he saw a path laid out for what
his core represented at that time and he chose against that
core in the last in that last moment.
Exactly. That's exactly right.
And that to me is far more powerful than seeing something
really seeing a great future and, and deciding that you're
going to let you know, fate or whatever.
Take its course. No.
Seeing oh, man. This is what I'm made of.
I mean, I don't want to be that. It's actually a moment of
self-awareness. It's like almost whole document
where he become self-aware. And yes, that that Clarity that
allows him to do the right thing fully for the first time, which
is what his mom wanted him to see precisely.
That's what this whole journey has been about.
It's All About a Mom. Just trying to give her son that
helpful nudge. Literally what it is, which is
so, it's so beautiful. That was something that came
about almost as a surprise. So interesting because Was in
the poem. As I mentioned, it's more than
the face. She doesn't show up until the,
you know, she didn't. She never literally shows up
aside from like being the old woman in Disguise and the
castle, right, but it's revealed at the end that she was behind
everything and I wanted to maintain that, I wanted her to
be, you know, the instigator of all these events, but I wanted
to bring her in earlier. And so, I had, I had drafts,
were she showed up earlier and where Godwin's mother goes to
her. And then at one point, I was
just like, what if I just combine those Actors and doing
that. Like, I didn't do anything else.
I just combine those characters and the and the ripple effect of
that was so intense and change things so much that I didn't.
I'm still kind of like processing how on a personal
level that like reflects upon like my own history with my mom,
which is very similar. Would you like, I lived at home
for way too long and she had to give me that little like helpful
nudge out the door and it's those things that you do that.
You don't even think about until much later.
And all of a sudden, like, oh, I Was just like working through
things from like over a decade ago that I'm still clearly like
trying to figure out, like, you know, I'm still trying to
process. How old were you when you left
home, 26 also pretty old. Yeah.
I'd had a couple tries of like, going out on my own and making
it. I spent some time living out
here in LA and I just kept failing.
And I was 23. I think 24.
When I finally moved him. I'm the benefactor of like
Arobin, in fact, e of like two loving parents who really like
created a warm nest for their children, and I'm the oldest of
nine. So we were like all live in
spite your from a massive new. Yeah, and and it just was like
it just made sense to say there. Never, it never occurred to me
that like, I needed to leave until I was, you know, hopefully
nudged out the door, that's kind of incredible.
So you're really close with your siblings.
And yeah, we're and we're all like artists to one degree or
another, my parents were. Definitely like very
instrumental in helping us like all feel that the greater value
in life is not to like, be quote, unquote successful, but
just pursue whatever passions compel us to like fulfill
yourself. Exactly.
And so, a couple of my siblings are musicians rat.
My brother Ben is a painter, and he works on most of my movies as
like a concept artist. I mean, he did a lot of art for
this film. Oh, great.
And include he did. The one matte painting, the one
classic matte painting, which one in the in.
A great hall. When the Green Knight Aura for
the Green Knight shows up when the king is addressing
everybody. Yeah, the shot just wasn't as
wide as I wanted it to be because we had the camera up
against the wall. And that was like, I wish we
could just be much wider. Share more that.
Yeah, and those shows are incredible.
I was a, here's an opportunity to actually do an old-fashioned.
Matt. I actually wanted in prep.
We talked about doing glass mats, like actually.
Yeah, finding the artists who still work.
They all mean, a lot of them work at wet and out doing
digital versions of it, but we just didn't have the time to
prepare that like actually lock the camera into place and know
exactly where we were going to block out the areas for the
glass painting to come into play there.
So. But but we did in that shot.
I was like we don't have enough extras in here, you know, we
don't have the shots not wide enough, but I bet we could just
paint it all in. And so for that one shot,
there's like a bunch of painted people off to the sides and
painted fire. Like, it was just the extension
on either side of the frame. Yeah, exactly.
Okay, and so like anybody any Years.
You see in there. They're like, kind of like
encroaching on the side and the Darkness are all just
hand-painted. I'm gonna watch it again to see
that, but and it was definitely like almost checked off a goemon
goal of mine, which is that have like to have like traditional
matte paintings and movies. And I want to, I want to at some
point, do the full on like glass mat, dude, partially just to
have that painting after. All right.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
When we were doing Pete's Dragon, our post sweet was
decorated with art from the Disney archives, and the They
just brought out all of their old glass mats.
Oh my God, what a treasure in them, and lift them and it was
just incredible. Just to stand there, like look
them. Yeah, I mean, getting to getting
to play. I mean, yeah, I'm having been
able to take off that particular box, you know, for techniques
that are not really used like that anymore, is such a special
thing and it's so lovely to be able to play with those old
tools. I mean, I remember that being
such a joyful thing on Lord of the Rings when we were doing
forced perspective. Yeah.
Just utilizing the simplest tricks in the book that were in
camera, an incredibly effective. And and you get this sort of
this jolt of enthusiasm and excitement of you're playing
with movie Magic, and you're seeing it happen before.
Your eyes are seeing it happen before your eyes and you go to
the dailies and you see that it actually works.
And everyone's like, whoa, we did that.
We were literally there yesterday, shooting that now
it's done. And there it is as opposed to.
Now when you're just like six months of look, amazingly
surrender to exactly. And and I like that, to me.
I love, I love I love But there is something something.
So, satisfying, as a filmmaker for the whole crew, when you
were pulling something off in camera, and I do believe that,
that like translates over to the audience.
There's a, since when, when you're watching a movie,
including movies, I've made where you just assume everyone's
like assuming it's a digital effect and they're correct
because you're just like, well, that's done with computers.
Sure. And you don't think about how
hard it is to do with computers. You just like in your mind, even
for me. I think what you just press a
button, you take that for granted.
You take it for granted. It's a ton of work.
It is a lot of work. Yeah, but when you see something
that subverts that expectation, that was done with computers.
We were like that feels real in a way that I don't understand.
It's far more profound as an audience member and usually it's
happening on a subconscious level, but every now and then,
they'll be one that just like, I think it's like some that forced
perspective stuff is that? Yeah, type of work where you're
like. You think about that shot where
the camera was moving and you're like there's something going on
there. Like going around the table.
Yeah, and it's like I'm sure it could be done with computers.
But when you're watching that, you understand that there is
something metaphysical happens that, yes, it's just nuts and
bolts but translates into something truly special.
Yes, you can feel it on the kind of molecular level.
It's funny to what you said about the crew being able to
feel that as well, which is so important when you're making
something. Yeah, especially when you're
making something with a lot of VFX for the Route to be able to
see in the moment and in camera. Some some bit of that magic come
to life is so impactful. Yes, and it really kind of it
reverberates, this energy amongst everybody and and they
can then rally even more behind the thing that we're all working
on. I remember that on, I worked on
this film Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind and there was
a shot. The end of the second week.
We did this shot. That was All, it was a one-er
where Kate Winslet and and gym, or running down a hall for
having come from a facsimile of the house.
So it's in this sort of dream world.
They leave the house, go into the Hall of the doctor's office.
Come in to open the door. The camera moves around.
Jim takes his hat off. He's got like a beanie cap and a
jacket takes that off spins around and he's now the patient.
Jim. Having observed himself camera
spins around sees me drop some papers spins back.
He's put his hat back on to be the gym.
That's just run with Kate. And I think we did 16 or 17
takes of it. And when it was done, it was
seamless. Yeah, you saw it and it was
electric suddenly everybody on set realized what we were
making. And it's just so powerful and
and you're right. It does translate to the
audience as well. You see that shot in your brain
goes. I it's real.
Something is happening here, that I can't make sense of, but
it definitely feels real. And it resonates in a way that
If it were digital, it wouldn't have quite the same effect.
It's very true. It's very true.
And and there's something about bringing the community of a film
set into that experience. Yes, and making sure that
everyone is participating it and can feel that pride in it.
Yes, even when it's not a visual effects thing, but when you're
just like making a movie, one thing I try to do is like,
halfway through the shoot just cut together, an assembly of
everything, not the movie, but just like a almost, like a demo
reel. Yeah, and show everybody.
We like awareness projector in a screening room when everyone
comes in. And watches it and it's like
such a nice invigorating moment. Yeah, especially if it's a hard
shoot like to be reminded that we're all working together
towards like something that hopefully will be incredible.
That's the best. It's the best that connects so
much to what I think we both love about making movies is fact
that sense of a group of people working together really hard
towards something that they all really believe in.
Yeah, and when you can kind of throw in a moment like that To
remind people what they're making.
It's just it's so special and it and it can reinvigorate people
for another month to two months ago, based on the energy of
having seen that and recognizing that they're all a part of
something special. Yeah.
It's not just a, it's not just a, you know, something that
everyone's going to just forget about ya sick, to six months to
a year. It'll be something that that
they'll be proud of it. They'll want to show that
they'll be like, hey, I was a part of this.
Yeah, let's now I'm gonna show my family.
This Whatever it may be that's the best.
How long was the the shoot on Green Knight?
It was about 50 days. Okay, so pretty good.
Yeah, you know, for an indie film that like is is besides up
there. It's up solid amount of time you
bring exactly. And I really 20 days more than
you normally get. Totally.
I really credit James and Toby. My producing partner is and who,
you know? And yeah, great Edmund Samson,
our line producer who just like understood, like, we're trying
to do something really ambitious here.
Yeah. How can we get the most
on-screen? And he was like, he was, he
would ask me like these hard questions being like, could we
really need to do this as a build?
We find a location? Can we shoot closer to Dublin?
And as a director at the time, you're always like it's so
frustrating. I want to build this site.
We need to make it feel bigger or whatever and but in the back
of my head, I always knew he was like asking these questions so
that we could you know, like when we were shooting in the
green Chapel like we went over a day there because it was just
there so many setups each stage of that sequence.
It's so long. Needed its own little, you know,
own setup own lighting, Q, etcetera, Etc.
And to be able to go to your line producer and say, I don't
think we're going to make our day.
We need to like, add another one.
Him be like, cool. I accounted for that.
That's a great line. Producer will do.
Ah, dude, the unsung heroes. I think they often are looked at
as like, the people who say, no on set.
Yeah, but they're not there. Other people who are like a good
line, producer, are the ones that they're the ones who are
trying to trying to make sure that you're going to get what
you need and trying to guess what, you'll need that.
You don't know that you need. Yeah, because like A lot of
times you like. I don't know.
I'm going to go over on that day.
Or I don't know. I'm going to need to reshoot the
scene, but they're just trying to guess.
They're looking ahead at some of the more complicated days and
estimating where users could go wrong.
Exactly. Where things could go over and
yeah. Oh, man.
Now they're the savior's for sure.
Precisely for sure. And how was because you took
that break obviously, you know, you thought you were going to be
releasing Green Knight last year and then you were also in prep
for Peter Pan. Yeah, so did that.
That also Took ya Paws is weirdly.
I think we were supposed to start shooting Peter Pan and May
19th and Green Knight was supposed to open on May 28.
So it was going to be David. And then, what ended up
happening was was Green. Knight opened on July 30th of
this year, which was like the last month of shooting Peter
Pan. So it kind of like inverted
itself. Right?
I mean, we've been working on Peter Pan and Wendy since 2016.
And that was when we're just took a while to get the script
right. Took a while for the studio to
feel like it was the right time to make the movie.
Yep, but then you know when it finally like happened it was
like okay, we're making this movie.
Here's the start date for it. You know it almost kind of came
unexpectedly. I thought it kind of gone away.
I thought it was probably not going to happen and suddenly we
got the call from Disney. It's like actually won it and
here's the release date. We want to try to hit.
So let's and of course none of that's how it was supposed to
open. It was originally supposed to
open July 30th of this year, which is the day Green Knight
wound up opening. So he's like concentric circles
of like production and release and poster all like intermingled
in an almost Cosmic sense. That's amazing.
It was the giant heart. There's that photo of Dev.
Holding that huge heart. Oh, yeah.
Was that from the big bore? Yeah.
So in the poem, okay, Godwin spins another like, two days at
the Lord, and Ladies Castle. Okay, and we shot those two
days, but love that sequence. They were just great.
Once she gives that speech about the color green.
Yeah, you kind of are done. You don't need any, you don't
need two more days and that was so that wasn't even like those
were in the edit for like a day. I It was like, yep, don't need
those and we're still shooting. So we repurpose that bore and
put it in the seat in the background of the scene.
Yeah. In the woods just so we would
have it there because the bore is definitely an important
animal in the poem and I wanted to you know, at least nod to
that. Yeah, but we had built this big
animatronic bore. It was fully a vegan dead animal
like all fake fur because I always had everything vegan on
my sets. Yeah, and and all the entrails
were there and the heart and what happened in the original
scene, which I'll probably if we A special edition Blu-ray, I'll
put it on there. It's a really good scenes that
Dev walks outside and the board is there and like Joel Edgerton
pops out from the stomach like a Tauntaun style because he was
just, who's just sitting there disemboweling it.
He's just coated in blood shirtless.
And, and there's all these entrails everywhere.
And it was also funny and really good.
But again, like we just that scene, fell away, very very
quiet. It sounds like a great comic bit
of levity. It was hilarious.
I mean, Joel, Joel knows how to like own those.
Oh, it's so thoroughly. Yeah.
Yeah, he was cracking us up. Oh my God.
That's awesome. Yeah, so somewhere in Ireland,
that's still there's the giant animatronic dead bore that it
and nobody kept the heart. I think it's all everything's in
storage. I've got the puppets.
Okay. The from the puppet show.
Holy shit, really? And I've do you have the the
actual set for it as well. That's in storage.
Okay? Yeah, because that would be a
pretty amazing thing to have in your home.
I'm starting to get to the point now where I'm like, I need props
for my movies because at first I was like, nah, Really too
concerned. My movies didn't have that, you
know, the props were in that special, any of it.
You're making a lot of movies with that with a lot of props.
So starting, starting starting with green night.
I started like, okay. I need to, like, just steal
these away. And then I'm Peter Pan.
I'd definitely rated the prop truck at the end of the shoot.
I've got a bunch of stuff. Oh, I can imagine, but where do
you keep that stuff? It's going to get tricky.
Well, one thing we've got is we put the Green Knights face on
one of the cannon ports on the boat, on Captain Hook's ship.
So, like when the Cannons would pop out, like the little port
Doors open and they all have faces on them.
And so, the Green Knight was one of those.
I've got that it's hanging in my garden in the in the back of my
house. Now that's rad and then I've got
like various other things. I can't it's gonna get into
spoilers, huh? Talking about it.
But but but they're all, they're all accumulating in my office.
And I'm like, now they realize, I need to get some shelves,
built to actually display these things rather than just having
them sitting around. Did you, you said you're in your
life, your wife moved back to Texas.
Where did you live prior? Did you live somewhere else?
We were living here in La you another?
Yeah. And then, you know, that was
following a year living in New Zealand, which it happily
retired in? Not time everyone to retire, but
I think he shot Pete's Dragon. Yeah, right.
Was that an Auckland? We were based in Wellington
until you were basically, we were stomach Street.
Okay, right. And I'll see you had, you had a
very comparable experience. Well, in the sense of wonder
that you were there, yeah, we literally felt like, you know,
we felt like we were part of that Community, camperdown
Studios the whole thing. Wow, so we started off in.
Wellington went up to To Rotorua for half seven weeks and then
went down to the South Island to this tiny town called tapping
Nuit, which is close to Dunedin. It was the most beautiful
experience because we is a town of about 750 people and we
basically just moved in and we, we all lived at, you know, the
homes of the inhabitants of this town.
We just moved in that town. Yeah, everyone worked on the
movie as either extras or helping with catering.
It was like whenever you make a movie like we talked early about
the the Idea of community, we able to like take this entire
town that we had moved into and involve them in the movie and a
really, I believe like healthy and positive way.
Oh, that's beautiful. And I think, you know, everyone
was so proud to be a part of it because we're finished with the
movie. We went back into Premiere in
Auckland, which is great. And then one in Wellington and
then we went to tap a new, we did one down there and there's
no movie theater there. So, we did it in the high school
gymnasium. Oh, that's so lovely.
And everyone came in and it was the most.
I mean, of all the Movie. I don't really enjoy going to
movie premieres come to self-conscious, but that 111
either that one was one of the best experiences in my life to
just cook because everybody's going to Premiere in the
traditional sense. That was literally a screening
for the community. Exactly, exactly how beautiful.
They put up a little plaque in the town where David that's in
the alleyway, where Pete gets caught.
And I, you know, that's so cool. I mean back to New Zealand a few
times since then and have not made a bag of tap annuity, but
at some point, I really want to go back and, and just like, walk
down those streets again. Oh, that's amazing.
Zing New Zealand is really special in that way.
You know, when we were making rings that that same thing rang
true for us to where you would take over little tiny towns and
we would knock on people's doors to ask if we could use their
land. I mean, yeah, it's very and
there's this sense of the country feeling like they were
participating in it. And certainly the cruise.
I'm sure you can relate. I think some of the best crews
in the world are in New Zealand, indeed.
There's a sort of, there's a cultural sense of Of like
pulling up your bootstraps and just getting stuck into work.
Just wanting to help at whatever their station and, you know, on
Rings, the, the woman that would pick me up in the morning was
also a stand-in. Would also do reproduction
running. There was just this sense of
like I'll help with whatever and that was across the board at
every level and that's incredibly inspiring to be
around and it feels like everybody has a part to play.
Yep, everybody. Everybody's job is me.
Thankful and is contributing to the larger thing.
And I've never, I've certainly felt that another other films
for sure outside of New Zealand, but none quite like it, it is
there. It's very special and and
there's a sense of the quality of life.
There, the dance floor and everybody, and I think we're
about to see a sea change in the US with that with what's going
on with a Otzi. We have great.
Yes, it is. Because you go to New Zealand
and the same goes in Ireland where people would rather go
home to have dinner with their families than get paid overtime.
I wanted to ask Do you like one of the things I've loved
watching is like the movies, you're making the choice, you're
doing making both as a as an actor and as a producer is a
deep love of genre. Yeah, and as someone who were
talking in October, I'm just mainlining horror movies, left
and right right now. Because that's what I do all
year round, but, especially in October.
Sure. Yeah, is that always been your
favorite genre has that been something you've been drawn to I
think so. I mean, since I was pretty
young, you know, we're I think we're the same age.
Yeah, I was born in 81. I think you're December of 880.
So yeah, so I, you know, I haven't I have an older brother.
So he's about seven years older than me, and he was watching
horror movies, like renting horror movies from the local
video store with his friends when I was five six and seven.
Yeah, and so he would, you know, unbeknownst to my mother and
father, show me these horror movies and I love them
immediately. I didn't it didn't really
freaked me out. I just it's that thing of you
know, when you're young it's the forbidden fruit. is the thing
you're not supposed to watch but you're so excited to watch it
invariably because it's the thing you're not supposed to and
I loved it and the older I got the more I watched and the more
I loved and then when I thought about because I I've loved the
process of filmmaking forever and the older I got the more I
wanted to be involved in filmmaking in a more proactive
way and to provide a platform for other filmmakers and stories
seeing something from the sort of Action point on through.
So the idea to sort of start a production company came about
and I thought, well, there's that's, that's these are the
kinds of movies that I will. Ya silat 8.
And at the time, my producing partners and I we kind of bonded
on this shared, mutual love of genre and this is, you know, ten
years ago. So really before the Renaissance
that were currently still in at the time, you know, the films
that we loved were being made largely in Europe, you know Let
the Right One In The orphanage, you know, inside out of France.
Yeah, the Future Extreme. Oh my God.
That such an incredible series of films.
They're Martyrs is so great. So there were, there were
certainly exceptions to the rule in the US, but the US was
predominantly still kind of mired in torture porn.
And I don't think the occasional remake like you'd have, like,
the initial black Christmas remake.
Sure. Like these sort of reboots and
things, but you know, but then you'd have something like, you
know, Ty West's house, the devil would pop up.
So, the Were these really wonderful examples of great
genre, but there wasn't, it didn't seem at the time that
there was a place for it. So, we were just kind of talking
and thinking about it, and let's create a plat.
Let's create a space for this. Like let's reach out to
filmmakers that we love and try and, you know, allow them to
create a, you know, a space to make the kinds of movies that we
love to see and that's how Mandy came about, you know, very
organically, loving Beyond the Black rainbow.
Bow and thinking will do anything just to provide a
platform for whatever. Yeah.
Pano's wants to do now. Yep.
And as you know, genre is, it's funny because horror tends to
get less. So now because I feel like
there's a, an acceptance of horror and the larger sense as
an actual art form. It tent, you know, it depends on
who you're talking to it. Horror over the years tends to
get denigrated to the sort of be level, and it doesn't often get
to sort of join the larger. Conversation, although I think
that has largely changed its when it reaches the, a level
people say, well, it's not really a horrible.
That's exactly help than those conversation starts.
It's not really horror, which is such bullshit elevated horror.
No, it's just, it's horror exactly.
But you and I both know that it is the thing.
That's so wonderful about genre from a filmmaking perspective,
is that it all bets are off. Like, it allows you so many, so
much creative freedom that a traditional Drama or traditional
comedy or what have you doesn't necessarily afford.
You can really play with Cinema in a way that is accepted in in
horror genre that you probably wouldn't get away with as much
otherwise. And so great filmmakers get
their start and genre because they can flex and try things
that work within the sort of Fantastical realm and I just
love that. There's so much room for really
exciting artistic choices and genre that you don't often get
to see otherwise and As you have that room to throw the rules
out, so to speak. Yeah.
Can actually illuminate, whatever thematic content.
More closely more clearly and it will resonate and people will
actually absorb it more like you actually will take it in whereas
if you were just no shade. I'm dramas.
Like I love a great dropping. Yes, but if you have a movie
that maybe feels a little bit like homework and not to say
movie will feel like homework, but like a movie that feels like
it's just a straight drama. It's harder to sometimes get
people. To embrace the message that
you're trying to convey here is, if you can get that message, you
know, to seep out through the floorboards of a horror movie.
Yeah, it actually will people will carry it with them longer.
Yeah, that's why get out was such a huge hit that.
I mean, that's that's the movie that sort of I think it's
changed things. Yeah.
To a large extent. Yes.
And look, you know great horror films are often in my opinion,
the best horror films. You can remove the genre
elements and still have it. Telling story because at their
heart, they are trying to say. So yeah, hereditary is a horror
movie. But if you take the, the sort of
the demon aspect out of that, it's a it's a family trauma
film. Yep.
It's a, it's a film about a family that's falling apart.
You know what I mean lately? And I think to me, I think the
best genre has to, has to work in both ways.
Yeah. I don't think you can.
I mean, certainly you can Plenty of horror films, just rest on
the sort of exploitable elements, and their fun.
And we'll eat those up like candy, but the best ones you can
remove those elements. And there's, there's a real
story happening. There's something, there's an
engine that doesn't need to rely on the horror aspects, you know,
and I love that. I was like, I don't know if you
listen to the podcast unspooled with Paul Scheer naming on
Nicholson. I know it.
Yeah, they're just The Exorcist talking about how like for the
first like 90 minutes. It's about a About a movie star.
Yeah. Dealing with like public
perceptions of having a daughter.
Who's like, troubled. Yes, and it's like, well, yes.
And maybe being slightly neglectful.
Exactly. Yes, and that like, you never
think about that, but we watching the movie.
It's like, oh yeah, that is like there's a lot of emphasis put on
that and if there's a great Morty, minutes of it.
Yeah. It's kind of amazed it is.
But the movies also about faith and it's, it's about so many
other things indeed, and it's also terrifying and, you know,
and that's why it's a classic. Yeah.
It's every one of those things perfectly.
Exactly. Yeah, so it's it's a space that
I feel like I'll always want to play in.
I also feel like some of the most exciting new voices and
film were often making genre films.
I agree, you know, they they hit hard there, impactful their
bold, you know, again really wild choices are able to land
because of the vessel that they're that they're being
presented and it's a pretty exciting time to be a filmmaker.
It's certainly an exciting time to be a fan of film because
there's just, there's so many. There's so many incredible
voices and platforms for those voices, to be heard and walls,
are being broken all the time. The sort of like the typical
Avenues, which kind of create dividing lines are kind of
falling apart. The completely are initially,
especially, you know, as streaming in cinema become like
Inseparable. Totally.
I mean, one of my favorite things to do especially in
October is to Randomly watch shutter Originals because
letters. So great.
It's the best that line and you never know what you're going to
get because like they put out a lot of movies, they dimmed, and
I'll just like, click like beach house, was one of my favorite
movies last year. I haven't seen.
It was so good. And it was like, I was like,
I'll just try this out. So you see how it feels.
It's kind of like going to a film festival.
Is kind of like going to a film festival.
Yeah. Going to the midnight movies at
a film festival. Sure, you know, you're gonna see
something, genre adjacent at the very least.
Yeah, and hopefully it's going to be good and you have no idea
what to expect and that's what you get.
Watch this thing. That's so fun.
Do you have a horror film in you?
I do. I don't know what it is yet.
But I mean, it is my favorite genre and my movies, keep
participating in like the language of it.
They totally do without actually like fully embracing it.
But some point, you know, it's on my it's high in my to do
list, hot much higher than glass matte paintings.
I would love to see you make a horror film.
It's a it's I want to make, I get scared, very easily.
Do you? And I always have liked as much
as I love horror films by By the films themselves by the films
themselves, like, I watch movies with my, like, doing the like
the Vulcan hand signal half. Horizontally over my eyes so I
can quickly like, close it. If it gets too scary.
Yeah. My goal is to make a movie where
like, I don't want to be in the mix because I'm too scared.
That's that's right. When we get to that is a very
good goal. I want I want to make me forget
to keep all the lights on when we're mixing where you're
terrified of your own deal. Exactly.
I want to see that movie. I don't know how to pull that
off, but that's Go. That's like that's a high
watermark for me. That's awesome.
And I feel like we could talk all day because we also didn't
touch on your experience at Skywalker and how unbelievably
special that plays is. I got, I got to go.
So I've been I've been once or twice for for screenings, but
but just for the day, right you're going to see a movie and
then bouncing and it's so exceptional that entire piece of
land, the building's everything about it, but I'd never stayed
and about a year ago my fiance He had produced a movie that was
being mixed there. So we were invited to come up to
see a screening and the screening kept getting moved.
So we stayed what was going to be one night ended up being
three nights. So we have this experience of
like kind of living there for a minute.
Riding the bikes around pure magic.
It is it's and and you don't get good cell service there snow.
We feel disconnected. You do it.
Takes so long to get into town that you just you don't leave
and there's so much history, especially as someone who grew
up just Over ilm and lucasfilm and it's not like the archives
are they have a couple of props but it's really just like to
know that that's where those movies were in septic.
And and, and so much my own cinematic history was birthed
there. Yeah, it also has an incredible
George. His poster collection is out of
this world. Like that was such a revelation.
Ignited, a single building has any number of posters that he's
collected and is that represents?
I think the Skywalker Ranch represents only a fraction of
what he has because he's also got buildings in various other
places that also have his posters but it is an exceptional
collection. It ignited a little like poster
collecting side me when I went there was like, oh I need to
start doing the me to yeah. Me too.
Got a couple big French grants that have no room for my have.
You haven't gone there yet. Haven't gone there yet.
I just got Bruce ons, Lancelot, duloc related, to the Green
Knight. It's one of my favorite are
three movies. I just got a very I've not seen
that home. It's not really available right
now. Okay, I think I'd heard rumors
that Criterion was going to put it out, but I saw it.
It was, I mean, there's out-of-print.
DVDs of it. Okay, and you can get it on eBay
on VHS, but it's, it's a contra, what year?
He made it. But it's a very brisk sounion.
Take on Arthurian Lawrence about Lancelot in his Affairs
Guinevere. And it's fantastic.
And it has one of my, well, maybe my all-time favorite movie
poster that and the original poster for possession was the
last piece, which is like a gorgon.
On like it's like almost like a Medusa.
Yes. Yes.
Yes, sort of figure similar to the repulsion poster but not
quite anyway. That those two are.
I need to get that one. But now I've got the purse on
one. I love the Polish movie posters
to. And there was one that I'd never
seen. That was at Skywalker.
So at one of the screening rooms that they that they one of the
big screening rooms. I can't remember the name of it
in the hallway. There was a poster for Dirty
Dancing of all things, amazing, and it's Back and you see a
strip of a leg. It's so evocative and beautiful
and doesn't feel like the kind of, you know, the traditional
poster for that is is what it is.
It's the two actors and this is sort of this very dark
impressionistic piece. That's just a beautiful piece of
art on in and of itself. That's awesome.
I got my wife. A Japanese Showgirls poster for
her birthday last year. What does that look like?
It's gorgeous. Like it's absolutely beautiful
like this. This like beautiful painting of
Elizabeth Berkley like sort of sitting I'm like with her arms
crossed over. It's a very like their American
posters all about, like, that's that leg coming through the
screen. So yeah, like come see us.
This one's very like, it's the opposite of that like we're
saying like this is a damaged person who is, you know, you
shouldn't be looking at her. Like right now, it's a very
intimate and very, it's a completely different, take on
that movie. And the post.
It's like all red and it's just absolutely gorgeous.
Oh, that's rad. Yeah, it's we're Big Show Girls
fans. So that movies incredible.
It's incredible. It is incredible.
I think we have to wrap it up, David indeed, and keep going.
I had some perfect closing statement about 30 minutes ago
that I know now forgotten what it is.
Oh, no, I was like I know how to bring this all full circle back.
Don't remember what it is. So but up in a beautiful boat.
Exactly, but we can leave it open-ended.
Yeah. And say to be continued to be
continued. This has been really lovely and
just really nice to reconnect as well.
So, great. And I feel like there's still so
much for us to talk about offline, but we'll go do that.
Yeah, and maybe this will, since we did spend a lot of Time,
maybe we will also get an extended extended edition,
extended, bonus, episode fingers crossed.
Thanks, dude. Awesome.
Thanks a lot. Thanks for listening.
The 824 podcast is produced by us a 24 special.
Thanks to our editor Tom Wyatt and robot repair who composed
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