Welcome back to the 824 podcast. We recently brought together,
old friends and Cinema royalty, Isabella, Rossellini and Willem
Dafoe for a long-distance Zoom conversation.
Full of never before revealed stories from their time, working
with David Lynch on movies like Wild at Heart and blue velvet.
We hope you enjoyed the episode and catch Isabella Rossellini as
the Beloved Nana, Connie and Marcel the Shell with Shoes On
now in theaters. Hi.
I'm Isabella Rossellini Nick.
Hi, I'm willing to follow or the other way around.
We are actors so you'll never know.
And this is the podcast for a 24.
Hey, how are you? I'm finding you good, where are
you? So how many we York?
I'm an outside Rome. That's a drone, that's what I
thought too, because I can see on, Zoom the door behind you and
I said that's not America. No, it's In fact, in fact, it's
an Indian daughter, actually. But so you could have been in
India, but I thought he had to lie.
I could be in that league, but India, but I'm in and a
decidedly Indian Decor Rome actually, yeah, so, so speak
Italian by now Willam. You, do, I see polygon panel on
your Journal says, oh, really you see you taking lessons, or
you just a little bit once? So, we can take a lesson, but I
read a little bit in the morning.
Well, the giant grammar is very complicated, but if it's of any
consolation, we Italian make many mistakes.
When we thought the song, the song, the verb.
The verb is so difficult, so we make mistake.
I know the verbs are killers. Yes, it's true.
Recently, I found out, I can actually fight an Italian.
You know, when I'm angry very, very good.
Sometimes those saying big words in a different man, Pitcher it
allows you because sometimes when when I say well, we can't
say it now because I don't know if it can be censored or not.
This part of go ahead, but face a fuck in English.
It doesn't resonate in me as strong as a probably resonated
to an American. So when I fight for it, when I
fought with my husband, I often switch to Ink.
I felt. I was very violent in my
language. Jin English, but I couldn't be
abused the same strength in Italian because those words, hit
me. And then I thought, oh I don't
want to be that that hard. So I'm sure you have you know, a
lot of bad words. Oh God.
That's the first thing you learn.
You know. Oh yes.
And in Italy. They elaborate they can invent
new words. Yeah.
The other ridiculous thing is, of course, maybe it's partly
because I'm an actor and I like Mimic things, but you learn
gestural language, you know? Yes.
So, anything, you know, I just felt somebody gave me a teeny
book with all the Italian gestures and it's wonderful.
And some of it is references for very long history of how they
came about. And I didn't know it.
Of course, I do tell you a gesture, but I didn't know how
they came about and so much of the gestures.
Yeah, there was also used in the commedia, dell'arte, in all
these improvised theater of Italy, where there was a little,
you know, They were character that were set and little bit of
stories but all these gesture also came to make.
And this you know, to make the audience understand what were
the subtext of the character? I'll send it to you.
He'd be very interesting talk. They want you.
When you were living in Tribeca and I was living in Tribeca and
you were your I had your experimental theater, right?
The Wooster group. Yes, I was, I was with that
company from many many years and they, Still exist but because of
various reasons I had to leave and but they still go, it's not
the same but that was a big part of my life is that was part of
your life. I remember, I remember, you
know, that was what maybe 40 years ago.
So I started in 77 and I stopped in about 2003 or for So that's a
long time, stretch. Yeah.
You missed it because you did that.
But I know when I, you know, yeah, I've done theater.
I after, after I finished with the Wooster group, I worked with
three directors, that I love that very fortunate.
I worked with Richard Foreman, who I've worked with before, who
had a beautiful theater, that was in st.
Mark's church for a long time. It was a little chamber theater
called the unto ontological is Work together.
I loved working with him. I did a piece with him at the
public, and then I worked with Bob Wilson, a couple of times,
in fact, one time with Baryshnikov, which was a, which
was based on a kind of a surrealist Rider Russian writer
named Daniel carms, and it was principally a movement piece,
which was great fun for me, because one of the beautiful
things about the fear of it and you weren't afraid.
Boarded in film, is you get to use your body so fully?
Yeah. So it was a, it was a, it was a,
it was a great piece because we played twins, we were dressed
alike, and sometimes we'd mimic each other.
And that, that was a great experience.
And then also, I worked with this, great Italian, director
named, Romeo Custer Lucci, you know, his work, don't you know,
I don't know his work because although I am Italian and I
often go to Italy, I have lived in America for 50 years.
I do Cool. So much in Italy.
I do go to visit my family or some friends lately.
I pay more for the first time I made a film in Italy.
We tell each a rogue Wacker but generally, I do, yeah, yeah,
yeah. Reaches very, very talented.
But I don't know. For what reason, I don't really
work much in Italy. I work mostly in America and
France a lot, but not so much in Italy.
When I asked why they say that, they feel that I'm a little bit
of a hybrid. I'm not.
Not completely Italian because I lived all my adult life abroad
and and but them and I'm Italian.
So they don't know how to place me and always had that problem.
You know that I could never be cast as a family because in
English I have an accent and all of a sudden you say well why is
that sister speaking differently?
So that was always an in Italian.
Although Italy Italian is my first language, but my mom was
Swedish. She was the actress Ingrid
Bergman and I Not in France. So even in Italian I don't have
an accent but I don't roll my ours, which is I say the French
are so for example, my last name is rosellini as for lucidly me
but in each added me would be rosellini brought some Aroma as
a home grown. So I have also can't it's not an
accent but I have some letters that I pronounced differently.
You know, I recently for the first time dubbed myself and
Italian now that is really hard. Don't be very difficult hard and
I think dub it because you lose a lot of lose you lose tone, you
lose breath. And the Italians are very proud
of their job in quite variable. It's terrible.
I, I prefer subtitles any day. Even though there's a feeling of
reduction of the text and all that it you into it a lot just
by the tonal, And that the breath and sometimes even the
accent, even if you understand, don't understand the word, it's
music, you know? But I did it and it was very
difficult and we got it to an okay place I thought but then I
couldn't resist because I was kind of curious because it was a
release for it was the film that a shot with Abel Ferrara who
I've worked with a lot in Italy. But for the video release, it
was dubbed. And so I was curious.
So I went online to see See like the Triangular dubbed.
Anyone that has any interest in following me, they're used to
hearing the dubbed in another language in an inadvertent avoid
voice. So it was disturbing to hear my
voice in Italian and I played a foreigner so I could have an
accent still. It wasn't that you mentioned.
That it also be. The reason why I don't work so
much in Italy because I am known because also my parents were
very Known and all that. But but and they know my voice
because I've worked on television in Italy.
I don't up my film because I found it so different.
So just to explain if somebody did, here's his podcast in
Italy. All the films that are foreign
not subtitle but they are dubbed and often these people that
dubbed the film are very known in Italy and very revered, but
you might have Robert De Niro and Al Pacino and Dustin Hoffman
have saying Perce. First and dubbing them.
So the voice is gone is a fantastic interpretation of what
they do, but it is not, it doesn't make the person it does.
You don't identify actors Friday voices, especially foreign
actors. But Fellini said something
interesting because, you know, in America, everybody was so
shocked about Italian dubbing I actors, and believe he said,
when it was, it was, it worked with my father in a new him,
riddles, a little girl. That, I don't understand it, you
know, but I can create a whole character by using dubbing
because I can take a very big man and have a little girl, the
beam. And there you have, you have a
character that immediately stank, but he was a
caricaturist. He made a lot of drawing with
caricature. And so, I understand that use of
you can create a person, or you create a character, but I find
it when I grew up in it I went to see all the film does
including my mom Um, Ingrid Bergman Casablanca notorious.
I see the mold up at first and he didn't disturb me, but now
that I hear the original, I have a hard time hearing films that
are dubbed. Sure.
I, when you're talking about the same voice for Dustin Hoffman
and Al Pacino, and Robert De Niro famously, this this movie
Heat and the Niro and Pacino had Saints together and they were in
crisis, because they have the same voice in Italian.
So when it was released Standard Italy.
It had. A lot of trouble finding
commercial traction even though they were wildly popular actor.
It's because people confuse that one of them did not have their
regular voice, pretty strange. You strange just one second
because I'd put something in the oven, but I want to turn it.
I don't want to burn my lung. What is it?
Okay, pal, me Jonah.
Okay. And it just felt like something
was burned. Okay, it's okay Willam.
You've worked with so many directors.
Can I'm going to list a few because I don't think there is
anybody who work with so many directors.
If you have Scorsese, a Wes Anderson lost won't hear, Tony
Scott, Oliver Stone, David Lynch, Paul Schrader beam
vendors, Julian, Schnabel Abel, Ferrara, of course, David
cronenberg's Spike Lee, In sales and get Oculus.
I mean, amazing. I don't think there is anybody
who has worked with so many different directors, and
sometimes you work with servants and films with the same director
writer, director is very important to me.
I love a strong director because I feel like then I can relax and
really give myself to the project.
I don't, I don't worry, I feel much free, but I appreciate that
because if I'm left to my own devices, I'm sure I go to the
same, well, all the time. It takes a certain kind of
intervention or certain kind of discipline to be open each time
to kind of recreate your process.
And I think that's very important, and of course,
there's some go to things, are there some Tendencies you have,
but I always find it most rewarding if I could, that's
kind of taken away from me. If I know why I'm doing a
project then I don't worry about the result.
If I like the people, if I like their work, if it inspires vase
inspire That I try to be there for them and that frees me
ultimately it's a selfish goal of because then I feel like I do
my best work that way but the truth is, if you go towards
someone else's Vision that's not yours, it makes you Freer, I
think so you want someone there, really strong and personal view
of things. You don't just want to stylist,
then you're kind of interchangeable and then it kind
of becomes a crash. Again, you want to get in their
head and try to complete the world that they create.
I mean, look, something as simple as.
When we both worked with David Lynch on, you worked with him on
copy with frostbite, get Hearts, it, digitally.
What about Wild at Heart? We did together.
And I remembered that was like the, there's a logic, we were
there, too. It's a complete that world.
Yes, II to for me. Working with different
directors. If they have a brilliant mind
and if the you know you just, I would say to enter into their
brain is like taking it to re-stick trip into some batters
one person intelligence and I also the most satisfactory is
when you can make their idea come more alive.
So that instead of saying, I see the character like this and
fight it, you say no, okay. What are you see and you search
with Them. Because sometimes the ideas,
David used to say to me, sometimes he dies is like, thin
eyes. I know it's right.
But I need and I mean, David directs like this, you know, it
doesn't really verbalize what he wants, but he you showed you
strata scene with some mood and you can see from his face, if
he's happy or not and if he smiles and he's very happy, go
more in that direction and it's a back and forth until, you
know, it shaped the scene is shaped.
It. And that to me, I like that
process. I like the process of making
feminine very much because he's a collector estimator.
I and personally, that's always more interesting than the film.
Yes. Or when the film comes out
people think. I mean sometimes I said the best
room is the one that we don't have to present to the press and
have all the reviews and read all the bad reviews and the red
carpets, it means to me is really the process.
It's not so much the release when the films are released.
Of course, we have to be released and we want them to be
successor. But that is the part that I like
the least. Yeah, I agree.
But I like that fine too, because it's so connected to,
you know, doing more and getting the film out there and I'm down
with that, I guess. I feel more like I love the
adventure of making a film and and it's probably why I'm not a
director. I think you have to let a low.
Responsibility. Go about where you're going, you
know what, the film's going to be, and you have to just be
there to receive what's going on.
And if you can get that place and you can have the right
situation and whether it's an exotic thing or something very
close to you, whatever it is. It's a good way to live.
It's stimulating and it feels useful because you're working
with the team to make something that's either going to inspire
Them or distract them or make them laugh or something.
So, you know, I'm happy as a clam when I'm working.
Yeah, me, too. I like that.
Do you find yourself happier to work with some director?
And some were more difficult where some of the research to
express, what they were looking for, was more difficult than
others? I would imagine, I think so.
I I always get scared when an actor that when I director
thinks, he knows what the actors.
Jesse's and tries to speak actors language, because like,
you know, everyone's different and you I've met, I've worked
with some directors. I'm sure you have to wear, you
know, the smart enough to note that they have to deal with
every actor differently particular in the state, but not
just in the States. But, you know, beautiful thing
about film is there isn't a cookie cutter education for it.
So sometimes you Working with people that used to be models or
people that used to be a cook or someone that was a driver, you
know? It's a mixed bag.
Some are classically trained, summer, theater actors.
It's a mixed bag and everybody, there's no uniform system, so
you have to treat everybody. Kind of see what they need and
see what you need. And it's a nice social meeting
every time, I think you've got Such an interesting career.
Last time I saw you you know, you would it's a long time ago,
actually. I probably seen you since but I
mean last time I saw you at like a screening or something of
something. You did was green porno director
myself now. And also also, you always
surprise me by the choices you make and they're so different
and so eclectic. And I like it a lot.
I don't catch everything, but I'm always happy to see you.
And, I'm always personally. I've said it before, and I don't
want to embarrass you, but your maybe it's your upbringing, but
you're so elegant and So Graceful, So Graceful.
So Graceful with people socially, I think and a lot of
actors don't have that quality because they're scared, and
they're, and they're wrong. Worried about offending.
People are speaking their mind, you know.
Yes, actors are generally. I mean, it's hard to generalized
but actors shy, surprisingly, most people are very shy, I
mean, my mom for example. She said, always, she wasn't she
was a very shy person and acting because she wasn't herself.
She felt when I'm on stage or on the film said I feel like a lion
and also Knowing the story. She always said, I'm always
anxious about life but in a film I know what is the tech scene
and I know what the character is ending up.
And so that was so in the moment it, she was acting, she felt
agreed to release, you know, a great freedom, and happiness.
I'm not as shy as my mom and but I think I had I'm a raconteur.
So I like to tell stories and I like to work with directors, me
too. These very, very important to,
you know, when I sometimes I read a script but most of all I
want to know who's going to direct and sometimes a script is
just a vague indication of something.
But if I meet the person or seen the work that I've done before,
that's what I want to work with. I have to tell you a story about
Bob Wilson, was I work with Bob to so Bob Wilson proposed to me.
At play by Umberto Eco, and I read the script, I didn't
understand anything. So I read the book, I'm back to
Waco. I didn't understand anything.
So I went with, I said, I have to have the courage to Bob wants
it that way. Exactly, you know him.
So I went to Trembling saying, Bob, I I want to work with you
so badly, and I was so happy that you Ask me to do this thing
that I have to be really sincere.
I don't understand the script and I read the book and I don't
understand the book. He said me neither, you don't
understand it. You said we course.
I don't understand it because I'm attracted to mystery, but
there is a rhythm in the world words, isn't it?
And when you read you back Touareg, do you doesn't really
make sense. But your little scared.
I said, yes, I am a little scared, that's what I want to
capture and that to me, was such a lesson.
First of all, Only freed me from this narrative that it has to
always make sense because abstract, paintings exist, it's
not only figurative painting. So a film can also be abstract
and he's to mood that you look and David Lynch to talk about
another surrealist one day where I said, well maybe here to film
is not, I don't understand the story.
He said, why do you understand life?
So also for David, it was capturing the mood, we don't
understand life. We enter into a room and there
is already a mood of people are convivial up.
There is tension. We don't know, we just adapt but
we don't know what's going on or what had happened before, and
that's what is interesting to David and that was to me.
So liberating, when you work with directors like that, I
agree in both those cases, Bob Bob Wilson is famous for saying
I never asked him a To know what he's thinking.
That's not really what he's interested in.
You want some actor to submit to his form to his language?
You know you're like a marvelous.
Marionette is the Bishops of when you have that form you can
live and you can explore what's going on in a very deep way
because a part of your brain and a part of your energy isn't is
submitted to a kind of perfection and also
artificiality that creates sometimes a mystery.
And the question it isn't always narrative that you can hop on
and then you can be emotionally engaged but then the story ends
and you relate to it and it's complete and you feel good.
But I think in many ways I'm interested in more poetic
theater and a more poetic film that S, it engages you, but
engages you through your brain because when you, when things
are puzzling or things are curious, you don't know.
And ultimately, they involve you more emotionally in the end, I
think, because when things are recognizable, it's a beautiful
fun thing. But you hop on a train and you
kind of enjoy the ride, but you're not going step by step
you. Variance in it and same way that
your experience, poetry, poetry, you know, poetry, and in the
broadest sense of the word in poetry also, by its Nature has
always an ambiguity that life has.
Do I like this? But I don't like that.
I like it and don't like, you know, but that ambiguity is to
get is the brain that it's, for me animals, make me laugh.
So I'm looking at David Attenborough, look at National
Geographic, and it's great, but it exists already.
So when I wanted to Spread. Something that was in my heart.
I said, it's the animal are so funny and so mysterious and so
crazy. And so I created a free will.
Yes, I created this little Puppet Theater with myself that
I think captures do humor and it's always give the
scientifically because not only that, I even went back to
University to get a master degree in animal behavior and
conservation, because the subject interests are Much.
And I have to say that having worked with many other directors
or do I make these teeny film and his monologues?
You know, I can't compare myself to the greatest, it's always
starts from a point of poetry, it always starts from a feeling
that I have and I want to share and the style that I make the
film. It's a consequence of it to
represent the best. The feeling in ever starts with
the style and then goes into the feeling.
At least for me you do know I'm with you.
I'm with you can we talk about Abel Ferrara?
How easy he was the craziest director I've worked with, is he
behaving more is he tamed and you tamed him really you know,
he's got a hide, his habits turn, his character are very
Forefront so to talk about him is never gossiping, I guess,
because he lays it all out there, I worked with Abel.
You know when he had when he was living a certain kind of life
and then I've worked with him since he's cleaned up his life
and he's basically the same person.
It's very good lesson. What is it is actually is
basically the same person I'd say.
Just there's a trust there, you know, when someone is addicted.
They have a God that always separates, you know, you from
them particularly when you're working on something and he
says, I got to go, you guys do the same, I'll be back.
That's a problem, but there's none of that anymore.
He's, you know, he's living, he's my neighbor here in the
city in Rome and we're very good friends and we've made many
films together. He's made to lately.
Very quickly without me bastard but no actually we keep in
touch. I was busy and he he he's one of
the beautiful things about the table.
Is he works with nothing and he likes to make movies.
He's a shooter. So he absolutely said he's our
best quality, he's always working and He's his sets are
wild. They're chaotic is hell.
And one of the most difficult things to do in post is to
remove his voice from the shooting because even when
you're shooting like the most intimate, most vulnerable, you
know, sex scene or something, he's screaming the whole
talking, so it's like a discipline.
He's screaming directions. Sometimes, I have to say that I
didn't know, sorry, I didn't know.
When I did, I did with him a film that is very beautiful.
I really liked. I remember on the railroad.
Yeah. Yeah, I know.
And I also love to work with Abel it was very chaotic and I
really didn't know because most film is action cut and then you
know where you're seeing is on. I didn't know.
It is so much chaotic that I just stay in character all the
time because I didn't know and there was a lot of improvisation
of little dialogue, but even in these scales, there was a A
Clarity of his Direction, really?
What you wanted to capture? I really admired him but you
know talking about addiction because I mean it's no secret
that they that then that Abel had the problem in his now
solving it I will treat any stopper in blue velvet and
Dennis had just come out of rehab for three years and I
remember I had been already hired in blue velvet and David
It was looking for the character of that Dennis Hopper played in
blue velvet. And when he found Dennis Hopper
said, oh, Dennis Hopper, because of course he had the worst
reputation in the business. I said how easy and David said,
is life, sitting next to a ticking bomb, that's how he
described. But actually he worked with
working with him, it was one of the most A profound experience
inside the had because Danny's had no more judgement he had
been so down on himself and he had experienced really hell and
came out of it that working with him and he's very difficult
scenes of rape and all that he was the perfect partner.
I felt completely protected by him as a human being that he was
playing this evil man that was deserve.
Raping me in at Richwood High. Remember character energy?
Music way it may, I ask him. How did you end up being a drug
addict and having to come out of it?
And he said, you know, maybe it was the 60s drugs over around
and all that. But I believed for a long time
that I needed to drugs in order to act because I was so shy and
so intimidated as so afraid that I wasn't good enough, they do
draw gave me that confidence and this is the first film that I do
completely clean. And And it was so happy to work
so well and the film went so well, and he got so much,
praise. So yeah.
Sometimes the people they go through that Journey.
The most wise is in it. I'm hesitant to say, but because
it's, I always disliked when actors talk about what a should
have, could have kind of stories, but do you know, I was
at the gulf Western Building and they told me to go up to dino De
Laurentiis his office Meet him. And that's where I first met
David. And they had me read blue velvet
and they said basically we think we've got a frankbooth roll
cast, but we're not sure. Because he could, you could have
played because you often play a villain.
So they were going to, you are going to do the Dennis Hopper
room, what happened? Don't dance.
I don't say that it was like, clearly, they probably were a
little nervous about their nests or the deal wasn't done, and
they wanted to have someone waiting in the wings.
Well, I, you know, I met David Lynch in a restaurant and I was
having dinner with, you know, De Laurentiis wife who died
recently has done such Wonderful, lady and another
friend. And David was sitting in a table
in the same restaurant with one of Dino De Laurentiis
son-in-law. So we joined the table, we all
said together and I didn't know David had not, I mean he had
done Elephant Man, maybe I forgot but it wasn't as normal.
Of course as now and I had just finished a film, but I also work
with Misha Baryshnikov in a film called White Nights.
And the other actress was Helen Mirren, and then the greater
Gregory Hines and David wanted so badly to have Helen Mirren
for Bluebell fit. For the role that I ended up
playing and all the night, he tormented me about.
Can't do you have Helen mirren's phone number?
Can you give it to me dr. And and the next day and hasn't
turned down the film because the film of course is very
controversial and she was she didn't want to be part of I
think it's gone traversed, so that require nudity and all
that. So that is rising because she's
famous for being able to deal with that.
I think the way she explained it to me because over the next day
after dinner, I received sorry and David, a note saying, second
thought, maybe you can play Dorothy balance.
That's the name of the character.
So then we either I rehearse to scene and we so and then spoke
to Helen and I said, why did you turn it down?
But Helen said, no, it is the It is right now this moment in my
life because her husband was getting a divorce to marry her
and she didn't want to be in that moment of divorce and
complication her children in a controversial film.
So and then nobody could have predicted that you velvet became
so known know, it's a beautiful film.
And who would have ever thought that?
It wasn't totally conceived around you D.
Be told me, I He was conceived around Helen Mirren.
David told me that one day when he came back from school, he saw
a woman naked walking down to Street and he started to cry as
he understood that something very wrong at happened.
It wasn't excited, he wasn't titillating.
And that was to image that fragment that sometimes director
grabs with and creates a character.
And I think that that was the fragment that inspired the
character of Dorothy balance. What happened, what was the
story behind this woman? Walked naked industry.
She can't, you know, and that's an edge.
We repeated the scene, and that's why it required that
nudity, that I walk down the street nude bruised, because I
come from, yeah, probably a ritualistic, sadistic a
torturous Raper. Wow, that's a, that's an
incredible story about that. Do we work together in Wild at
Heart? And I remember it took us, it
was quite fun, and Did you so David allowed me in in the films
that I did with him to create a little bit of do look.
So for the character that I played was named her spirit, eat
arango a wonderful. I remember you were my
girlfriend base. Yes, it was your girlfriend and
I because you were such a bad guy.
And we were sexist, sleazy people that I wanted to have
both to bead repellent but also sexy.
So I thought And I thought of Frida Kahlo because the painter
pieter Callo, she's kind of, you know, she has eyebrows that she
had, you know, this is wonderful how sometimes you're gonna
problems stash and yet she's so appealing and attractive.
So I copied a little bit the Frida Kahlo look, I remember
asking David can I have just a little bit of massage.
She said no, that's too much although Patti Smith cage and he
has a little bit of mustache and I found that would be quite
Powerful. You know why?
I didn't just write it was frightening, but attractive, but
David didn't allow me to mistakes, but I had to one
eyebrow. You had those teeth.
So strange, who does that, who chose Jesus?
It was in the script and little story that I always tell it
shows how actors sometimes limit themselves in their imagination.
I've read on the script. It says he has Stumpy discolored
teeth and I just assumed the The I assumed it wasn't a huge.
Huge budget film. So I figured they were just
discolor my teeth because I don't have the most beautiful
teeth in the world as it is. And then when I went to see
David, he was like, we got to get you to the dentist and I
thought He said we got to get those teeth and it ended up that
they made, you know, full dentures that went over my teeth
for these huge gums. These kind of not too healthy
looking gums and these very Stumpy teeth and the thing that
that became the key for the character because when they put
the Dentures over my teeth, I couldn't close my mouth.
So all the time I was like this This.
And I say, if you had to do this, it immediately makes you
feel kind of lascivious. Like you want to suck on
something or you want to say something vulgar, you know, it
was, it was a key to the character.
I feel like Wild at Heart, I had so many externals that worked as
triggers for my imagination that I didn't.
I didn't sweat about preparation or Anything I felt very happy
just to show up on the set there's David is a painter.
So for and he's imagery is uh so strong, it's only photographic
the way cases the camera the set.
I always find costume to be a very important process caused
your makeup because he defines so much.
The character I play. Is it the same for you?
Yes, not only it defines it, but sometimes it can be Be a real
mask you know, it can it can do a lot of work, you know, it's
all it's almost like sometimes I'm not this cynical but you
know, sometimes you're like that the costumes going to do this
one, you know, if it's very strong sometimes you, you don't
have to work it, you have to just be and wear that costume.
Well and then that makes your body move in the certain way
that makes you imagine how people are looking at you in a
certain way. You know, if you have something
that you really Feel good in and you feel like it's strong.
Then you're going to take on that strength in your
performance. If you feel like it's something
really repulsive, then you're going to slide into that
repulsion or if you feel real handsome and you got to be
handsome then you know you know, clothes make the man.
What can I say or the person. Do you have the same thing?
Sorry, because I'm also a model. I'm not only an actress.
Do you have same thing with passion and then his fashion
does, Wearing all your clothes gives you occasionally a mood or
helps you get a mood or not. Definitely.
But I feel like I don't enter that black hole that is fashion,
you know, I like nice clothes and when you feel good in
clothes, it's great. But I tend to wear a uniform.
You know, I always think of that ingmar Bergman with his, you
know, closet of 32. Home Max and one jacket in one
pair of trousers, you know, to me, that is a great definition
of Elegance. I always think that the summit
of Elegance is with somebody, fine.
So I kind of a uniform, I remember working with David.
He also wears the same clothes and I remember going to a French
designer called an ESB, and just helping start the shirt and
khaki pants. It's and the shirt and I think
he still probably where's that? And yes, there is something to
be said about having a uniform because becomes your second
skin, but also close tell who you are.
Of course, when we play the costume, can create an extreme
or something that it isn't us like my big eyebrow and petite
at Durango and Wild at Heart or blue, eyeshadow red lipstick,
black wig, and white and blue velvet.
So in life, I cannot do that extreme.
But I do tend to also have a wardrobe, like IMA.
But the same thing also, because you're revealing yourself
through your choice of your clothes and it's a little bit,
maybe that goes back to the thing about you say about
shyness. I don't think I'm particularly
social Lee elegant. So I guess I'm a little shy so I
don't want to reveal that about me.
I reveal myself through Cara. Actors and things and then who I
really want to reveal myself is a very small circle.
So when you think about presenting yourself to the
world, that's what why the uniform appeals to visit me.
Because people it doesn't Express anything specific, you
know, it puts more emphasis on your body or something.
I don't know. Yes, yeah.
No. Well, I, you know, I, I don't
know. I was said that the Elegance is
to definition the Elegance. They asked, what is the
definition of Elegance? It was said, the definition of
Elegance is not a combination of clothes.
It's a, it's a thought behind the clothes and that's when you
see that click that thought even for you, I want to be, you know,
I'm an actor. I want to be a uniform, very
simple black and black t shirt, black pants.
It means I'm a puppet, I'm a puppet or a puppeteer, and both
and, you know, so to me, that's the definition of Elegance.
But, you know, talking, About, you said it, sometimes the
clothes create a character. I remember reading about Audrey
Hepburn when she did. My fair lady that, you know, she
has to come out in my fair lady and Professor Higgins.
Finally sees big Malian Caesar finale as this beauty.
And she said that to that to clothes, she wore were so
beautifully done. That she also felt the same.
She said, I don't have to do anything.
I just had to stand there because the clothes would do it
for me. And of course, I was think of
that scene because it's that silhouette that beautiful outfit
that she wears in her very simply standing that made that
convey that moment of Revelation to Professor Higgins.
This is a beautiful woman. It's fun to talk about the
stuff, because it always reminds you that You know, when you make
a film where you do it play, it's such a convergence of all
these different choices and all these different contributions
that, you know, sometimes we get a little too, I'm not being
falsely modest, but or koi or anything.
But really, I'm obsessed by this.
We got obsessed with the actor too much.
The actor, of course, is the thing we see.
But the actor, you know, the best thing an actor can do, is
be receptive to what's in the air.
And what's they're making and what's given to them and what
they make from what's given to them and all these conversations
about external things, or process or director, all
indicate that as I get older, I want to disappear more and more,
and more into the role, not in the typical method way, but one
of the things that I great, a great thing that I learned from
being with the Wooster Group, which was a real gift is the
Nations were as important as the actors and sometimes the actors
served like technicians and sometimes the technicians served
as actors. So there was a kind of equality.
That was not only did it. Take off a certain kind of
pressure, but it recognized that made you feel more flexible.
You were always clear about when you had to drive and when you
had to react and that's that's very important.
Thing to know and what your what your function is in the overall
thing. Sometimes there are great actors
and they stand out and you love to watch them do their thing but
they don't integrate into the movie.
I won't name any names but you know sometimes that happens and
okay, that's fun. But on some level I think that's
that becomes very limiting for me the mmm bishan and What I
like to see and actors, what, you know, is this kind of
integration this kind of lack of neediness or need need to take,
you know, the stage sometimes. Okay.
You gotta, as I say drive, but I like these things where it's
kind of like, you can't help yourself.
There's a logic, there's a kind of objectivity, there's a kind
of clarity to You're the product of many things.
Exactly, exactly. Oh, hey, can I ask you?
I have one curiosity. You have children?
Yeah, I have 11. It is.
He attractive. Grandchildren, I have two
grandchildren to. Is there any one of the
grandchildren or your child want to be actors?
Want to are in the business? No, my my Um, he's 40 years.
Old is a lawyer that clerks for justice has four judges.
That's his job, and he used to work for an environmental law
firm. Lock concern down south but he,
I think he is mother was a director and met his father, an
actor and I think somewhere, deep, Lee.
He didn't want to compete. He didn't want to have that life
and he also grew up in the theater and also performed with
us. And he was perhaps the most
beautiful dancer I ever saw when he was a child and he would
perform with us when he was a child and he was fantastic and
so much so that other people wanted to use him, not a
conventional dancer, but people downtown making films and that
sort sort of thing. Joe Andres for example, the Wife
of Steve Buscemi used him in her films.
But then when he hit adolescence identity time came and I think
he did want to compete or following the singer be in the
same world and he was always agenda.
Mean I'm the daughter of somebody famous and I became an
actress in my 30s. Yeah, I mean modeling, you know
Worked as a model and I loved it because I had nothing.
I mean, I thought he had been that had nothing to do with
acting. Then little they know once I
start act know, once I was deep into modeling, I said, well, you
know, it is similar bit about acting Samuel, I don't have
words, but you have to save. You are emoting your you know,
you can't just stop there in front of the camera, you have to
do something and and so that's what gave me the courage but I
think it was because I was a known model.
Had the courage to try acting. I was asked like your son.
I was asked to act and I was turned it down and then it was
around 30. And the first film I made in
America was but with Misha but he's Nico with whom I've stayed
very good friends and I totally are yes I adore me.
I think he's so and I adore that he continued to dance I don't
know how old he is. 70 75, he continues to dance through him.
His movement is the expression of the body.
It isn't jumping hydras. Yes, he did that when he was
young, but he's such an inspiration to me and I agree.
Then the second film I did was blue velvet with David Lynch.
So I was lucky to start with such wonderful people that
encouraged me to continue. I gotta go back to what you said
about modeling. I haven't like model model, but
you know, I've done photo shoots and I did a campaign for Prada
and I even did the Catwalk one side for Prada.
You know what I like it. It's fun.
It is performing. It is fun.
It is performing. And also when you do the catwalk
to me, the most interesting part of catwalk is that you
understand the designers point of view, and the designers can
be like a director. They have, if there are strong
designer, like Prada, they do have a point of view.
And sometimes when you go in a shop, the shop is already edited
what they think will sell. So you don't see that was his
collection. But once you see the complete
collection, you really understand the process and the
creativity. And it is very interesting and
also I like the relationship with the photographer because
you're maybe, you know, their work, maybe they're famous,
maybe it's a wild card, you're taking a risk but it's a very
immediate kind of call and response.
They have a rough idea of what they want to do and then they
lay it on you and then you either.
Of fill it or you take it someplace else, you know, it
isn't July. Sometimes, it feels to me that
it is the same relationship that we have as actors, you know, we
say acting is reacting and a lot of it is listening and reacting,
and sometimes you can have a partner that really works and
you play off very well. And sometimes it works less
well, and he's just saying to me the same relationship between
two actors is the relationship that I have with the
photographer. I often find myself reacting to
the photographer, looking at him in the land.
It's and reacting to what? T, sends me back if he's smiling
as my back. If he's worried, I'm worried
about attracting fleas and that's how I, you know, I shape
my expression and then wait for him to click whenever he wants.
But I feel like it's a very instant thing and I like it when
it works, well, it's a lot of fun when it works.
Well, is a lot of fun and I agree.
It's brief. The I always had a, probably a
dedicated myself more to An acting also because I had two
children and modeling. I always knew that even the big
job was finished in 34 days, a film might ask you to go away
for three or four months and that was much harder when you
have a battery. So, I always favored modeling
until I got too old and then camera.
Now you're still modeling it, still occasionally but not not
as when I was young. Well, let me see talking about,
I have to go because I have a word with the Dolce Gabbana
next, talking about. Okay, tastic designers so but it
was so great to see you. And yeah, this we are so happy
to have you in Italy and yeah, speaking.
Italian and integrating in Italy and a huge hug to Able your
neighbor Abel Ferrara, I will, I will Okay, great.
Take care. Thanks for listening.
The 824 podcast is produced by us a 24 special.
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