Hi, this is Aidan Zamiri. Hi this is Charlie Xex and this
is the A 24. Podcast great.
That was great. That was great.
That was. Great, here we are.
Hi, Charlie. Hi, Aidan.
You look amazing. So do you.
Thanks. We're doing the a 24 podcast.
We finally made it. We finally made it.
Do you know I was about to do Maybe You Won't Like This?
I was about to say Welcome to Charlie Xex's Best Song Ever.
Well, you're you're in the deep cut.
That's the thing about me, if there's someone that could write
a Wikipedia page. About me.
It's me. Well, how long have you been a
fan of mine? Great.
Question, Great question. OK, So I think, I think I must
have come across you in around this around the time of you ha
ha ha. Wow.
Which in 2025, the year we are no longer in, that song, was
kind of going viral on TikTok. And, you know, I think it's a
really inspiring TikTok trend. The girl, whatever trend, I
didn't do it. I think you could still.
I think it's a bit late now that we're in 2026.
We're in January 2026. The reason I think that trend
was actually really exciting was it sort of it sort of
represented freedom. Yeah.
Absolutely. The ethos of it was girl,
whatever. Totally.
Yeah. Let's tell them how we met.
You go first. OK, OK, so alright, my first
meeting. By the way, I'm trying to put
some structure in this because I know that if we don't.
No, no, we will. Actually, just talking.
About some. Bullshit for an hour.
A really good conversation and I think people are gonna be like,
what the hell, Those two pretty good at this whole.
Yeah, Right. So first time we ever met was
well, this is my first meeting with you, but not your first
meeting with me. It was either 2013 or 2014.
I think it was 13. I think it was 13 because I
think I was still or just finished high school.
And I went to a music festival called T in the Park.
And I remember telling you about this and you said I vowed to
never go back again. Then you could go back again the
next year. So I looked it up.
Oh cool. On the Wikipedia, as you had a
midday slot, it was the kind of time in your life when it was
sort of big Buffalo boots, a little pink nighty.
You had a all girl band, very cool.
You were singing songs like Super Love, one of my
favourites. How do you feel about that?
Super love. Yeah.
You know, I know it's a fan fave, but it doesn't
particularly speak to me anymore sonically.
OK, as a song, I just, yeah, I don't know.
But I know people like it. I'm do you know, at that point
in time when I was making music, I was doing an accent in a lot
of my songs was sort of like this Scandy accent because I was
recording a lot in Sweden. I know I really love Sweden.
It really runs so deep, my love for for Sweden.
So because I was working with Patrick Burger, who he produced,
I love it. He produced Dancing on My Own,
Like wow. And we were working in Stockholm
together a lot. And so when I did the first demo
for I Love It, for example, the way that I sang, it was like, I
love it, you know? Well, I.
Yeah, and so in Soup for Love. Love it.
Which Patrick made with me, right.
It's very much doing like this. Like head to brawl.
Like how? Hey, hey, Charlie.
Because the cattle Scandi. A lot.
Skull. Skull.
Yeah. Wow.
So that was kind of in the in your sort of pseudo Swedish.
Yeah, because obviously, as you know, whenever I go to Sweden or
hang out with Swedish people, all my accent changes and I
start kind of talking a little bit like up and down, Hey
Charlie, let's get the snooze like.
And I'm, I can't just be like, yeah, yeah, I think about that a
lot. I'm like, I think about that a
lot. Wow.
So anyway you. Sorry.
OK, So yeah. And that imagine yourself in
that zone, you personally imagine you with a Swedish
accent rattling around your head, me with actually a much
stronger Scottish accent. And I think just to help your
visual of me, because I would sort of describe what you were
doing. I kind of had, I think I'd sort
of tried to dye my hair hair silver, but it was sort of a
kind of gross yellowy blonde that I put loads of silver
shampoo in. And I kind of had bluey sort of
marbled almost tips. Yeah.
But no, no, I don't think it was.
I think it was bad. And and then anyway, I, I was
sort of front row of your midday slot, but that actually was the
only, that was the only row. There wasn't about 50 people in
the crowd, but obviously people that got it the you were early.
I was, I was, yeah. It's hard being ahead, as a wise
woman once said. So yeah, it saw that, and then
it wasn't till much later that we actually met.
I think we actually met at Caroline Polischek's birthday
party at the Cow in Notting Hill.
There were a lot of welk welks and dishes and trays and are.
You sure you didn't have a single?
Will I didn't have a welk. Did George have a Welk?
I, I don't know, I, I remember leaving Hungary.
It was what I felt because there were a lot of welks and there it
was. It was just a lot of like
crustaceans and which is not my like MO especially on like a hot
day upstairs at the Cow in Notting Hill.
Like it was sweaty in there. It was warm and there were a lot
of welks. Anyways I.
Kind of actually I think I was quite well fed, but The thing is
I've got quite a strong stomach so I can really.
Right now, yeah, Yeah. Yeah, I can muscle in.
Yeah. Pardon the fun.
Oh. Yeah.
So that's where I feel like we first met.
But I was obviously like, very aware of your work.
Oh yeah, of course, from before. Because I feel like you've done
a lot with Twigs, You've done a lot with Caroline.
You think I've done something? With Jonathan, it's.
Done stuff with Jonathan. So obviously artists who I, you
know, just like familiar with and like seeing their work a
lot. I always really liked your work
and then we'd we had like almost worked together a few times.
Yeah, it was kind of crash era stuff as well.
I remember actually Imogene, our mutual friend who is your career
director and we've made loads of stuff together.
I remember she actually reached out earlier some for some crash
things. That was before I had like AUS
visa. I won't fully tell this story,
but there's that Rolling Stone shoot that didn't happen for a
few reasons. Yeah, but we won't go there.
Well, yeah. Everton didn't like my creative
anyways, I think. Anyways, Anyways, but yeah, no,
I was, I've, I've always been familiar with your work and I
guess when was the first time we worked together?
OK so our first thing we almost do.
You know what we almost did? You were texting me and I was
and I remember being like Oh my God Joe the XDX just follow me
and then you DM Ed me and you said could you come and do like
a lyric video for beg for you? Oh yeah.
Really. Check the texts, check the DMS.
Lyric video Why was I? Hanging up, I was literally
like. You were like, no.
Lower tier? I was about to jump at the
chance. Lyric video.
Oh. Sorry, no, it's OK.
Didn't kind of see the potential at that point and and then
proper first time was we did our.
Favorite brand? We did an amazing shoot that
honestly felt like an editorial. Sorry.
We did an amazing shoot for the for famed European retailer
Zelando. I'd do it again actually.
I'd do it again. Do you know what it?
Was fun. We got to do what we did.
We went to Berlin. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Went to Berlin, period. Period.
And and we had like we had an amazing, a lot of amazing set,
set designer called Steph. Yeah, she said she did a
fantastic job where we had a hole in the floor and your scarf
goes into the goes into the hole.
We had a big sort of sort of burning backdrop behind you.
Who did you say you looked like when he did that photo?
Remember, it was like you had a kind of collared.
Shirt Oh, Samuel peeps Samuel, you said.
Samuel, mother fucking peeps. I didn't know who it was and I
had to Google and it was like, oh.
And I do. You will, yes.
Giving Samuel. You kind of loot Samuel Peepage.
And it was a really fun time. And we, we bonded and we went,
oh, we're connected. Yeah.
We yeah, Yeah. And then it was a few months
later and you messaged me and said, hey, got a song.
And then so that it was more encrypted, as in safer, A safer
message. You sent me 360 on WhatsApp.
Yeah. And there and I went.
This is a mental song. Yeah.
I'm so Gabriette. Or I'm.
Well, that's actually not what it is, is that?
Fucksake you're call me Gabriette.
You're so inspired. Yeah, shit that.
Roll that back. Fake fan, whatever.
No, but you know, you know what's actually really
interesting to go back to the Zelando shoot.
Sorry, yes, I didn't mean to move on from that.
So no, no. Yeah, I mean.
Sorry, sorry. So much to unpack.
There main event main event no. You mentioned the scarf going
into the hole in the ground. So just to like explain like
this image, it's like I'm in like a very, very long scarf and
I'm in a room, I'm sat on the floor of the bedroom and there's
a hole in the floor of the bedroom.
And the scarf that I'm wearing like kind of drapes into the
hole in the ground. And that was like when I knew I
was like, oh, you have like a humour that I have.
What are you thinking? Yeah, we we that specific image.
Well, it's just like, like, I think it's, it's hard to find,
at least I find that it's hard to find like a creative
collaborator who's like, willing to kind of like risk being silly
and like kind of surreal and ridiculous.
But also, you know, think that that actually is kind of high
art as well as the Lando shoes. Yeah.
High art You're you're like interested in like playing with
like like stupidness, but in a way that's also actually really
beautiful. And I think that actually like
that kind of a thing. Those kind of images have has
become like a pretty big part of our dialogue as collaborators
because I think we are both into beauty and we're both into
emotion. But at the same time, we can
also, you know, like, do these, like, really stupid, ridiculous,
like surreal, funny, dumb things and mix them into the work.
Like, for example, like in the 360 video, I have to, like,
smash through a wall. Yeah.
You know, and yeah. All of it's dumb as hell.
Dumb, but there there is. Also you're.
Just of a man on a Gurney. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah. It's like there's just, I don't
know, I, I really, I think it's really charming.
It's what I really like about our work together, that we can
make something beautiful. But there is also just this like
ridiculousness to it, you know, that's.
Really cool to hear. That's how I yeah.
And I find that a lot with like a lot of your, your images
actually like with I, I think it's the Billy Rolling Stone
one. Is she in like a hot harness?
Yeah, she's like being a stunt woman, basically.
Yeah. And I just think, I don't know
that there's something sort of like funny about that, but I
think it's, it's sort of, yeah, it's like surreal.
That makes me really, I mean, I think you're, I've never, I've
never articulated like that. It's really cool to hear you say
that because I do think that's also what really draws me to
your work or your identity as an artist and all the things that
you put out, because it's a combination of taking it
seriously and done seriously. Yeah.
Well, and there's like a yeah, there's just this humour, I
think to both of us. But also we're we're also very
like obsessed with the Internet and with culture and which is
inherently like stupid, dumb and funny, but also very, very
profound and like feeding so much of life in a way.
And it's sort of like, I don't know, I think we're both kind of
obsessed with that. I think so too, and I feel like
I trained my eye or output on things like Tumblr.
So it was like the way that this combination of kind of lowbrow
stuff and highbrow stuff and it being stupid, but also being
extremely sincere and it being all these things at once.
And like not not filtering too much, just allowing all of it's
kind of come in, compute and then spit something out.
Is that was there something like that for you when you were
starting to make music or make art or whatever that?
Yeah, of course. I mean, I remember when I went
to art school, I went to Slade and I dropped out after a year
because, well, I kind of sucked. I don't know if you've seen my
fine art. Listen the the sort of morph
suit multi coloured like. No, no, that was that.
Oh, that was before. That's what got me in.
Oh, wow. Like Slade is kind of like, in
ways quite like a classical school.
And I was not at all making work.
Would they not into it when? You were, No, they weren't like
not into it. I just I found it really hard
because I was someone who at art school was like, I love of Andy
Warhol, you know, and everybody was like, OK, you fucking lose
that. You know, it was in the eyes,
right, right. You know, it was like, oh,
you're like a basic. Right.
It's like, yeah, heard of us. And I was like.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, totally.
You know, but I, I think like to go back to what you were saying
about like the high, low and things like that.
It's like, I was always really fascinated with like that world
of like the factory and the characters within it.
And like that kind of time in in New York and the way that like
product was being created at the same time as art, art and
commerce as we're like very obsessed with talking about.
And I think like for me, you know, when I was first started
making music and making videos, like whatever I was doing, it's
like as same as you, like I was kind of growing up on Tumblr and
on the Internet on Myspace. And I think there is like an
equivalent of that kind of like grabbing for images and party
culture and lifestyle and people via the Internet in the same way
that like that era of time, like the factory era, it was kind of
about like persona and going out and making art and like
obviously 2 completely different things.
I was sat at home on my computer trying to like feed myself.
But I think that kind of like ingestion of like persona and
partying and art and fun kind of all became such a part of my
language. I think that's why, you know,
the, the kind of factory thing or party culture or any of these
things, it feels like it's vital or it's timely and it's in
conversation with the world around.
And that's maybe this little work that we really like as
well. We really respond to I.
Think that we both gravitate towards work that like comments
on how work is made. I think we're both really into
meta stuff, which is like why you like, love Kaufman and like
whatever, you know, it's like. Like when a song knows it's a
song, Or like when a film knows it's a film.
You know what I mean? And actually kind of why.
Like when a photo knows it's a photo.
Do you enjoy being a voyeur as like a photographer and a
director? Because you don't really have
voyeur vibes like you don't. Yeah, most like for
photographers and directors are like, Oh yeah, perverts.
Yeah. Yeah.
Not to generalise, but I. Mean no.
Horniness and obviously it's like.
That's not Yeah, exactly. Not yet.
Well, not who knows what could happen on the Twitter for a
podcast. It could get really.
No, no, no, guys, it's so blushing.
No, I actually think one of the main things that that I find
appealing and making work, particularly when it's in
collaboration with someone else is actually that storytelling
element. I don't think of myself or I
don't see myself as a director or a photographer where it's
like this is my world. I want people to fit into, you
know what I mean? And like some some photographers
and directors that I really love to admire do operate like that
and it's cool and they have that, but it's the kind of not
the way that I think. So actually really I think my
favorite part is being kind of collaborative.
Yeah. Being in collaboration and being
like being able to like kind of find a, a story and do it
justice or whatever, you know? Yeah, I will say like you are a
really good collaborator. Like I love collaborating with
you. I know I can be a bit like crazy
sometimes. I don't think you are.
I actually really don't think you are.
You let me like, do what I need to do, you know, like if I'm
having a tantrum or Yeah, well, don't nod so quickly.
I mean, preemptively, I would let you have a tantrum and kind
of what that norm is about, but you've never done that.
You're really good with people actually, and I think I actually
think that's why so many people, whether it be like Timothy or
Billy or fucking, I don't know, like me, Pink Panther, like all
of these different people that you've worked with, I feel like
you, I don't know, you really like bring out like really great
things and people and it makes people want to work with you
again, like, and I think you also develop really different
languages with different people. Like obviously you've worked,
you've been working a lot with Timothy and I feel like your
language with him is like really different from like our language
together. And I think that's that's really
special and cool. To hear that.
Thank you. Are you gonna make more movies?
Obviously you've got one with me.
Yeah, I, which we should probably talk about, but let's
just talk about the other. Ones the other ones first I OK,
so I. Are there others?
Obviously we have ideas. I've not got any mother movies
right now to do. No, but like you gonna.
Yeah. Oh, 100%.
I mean, hey, if we talk a little bit about how this came into
being, it was like, you know, we obviously I I felt like I found
a really, I mean, like an extremely important collaborator
in my life and, and art and all these things.
And obviously, I think we both really felt that way.
And, you know, we had kind of spoken even briefly about like,
oh, we should maybe make a film together because, you know, that
was the direction you knew you were headed in.
And I think it's something that I making films is like something
that I maybe had hoped to do at some point in my life.
I. Actually wondered that if that
was like. In do you know what I think I
spent my I spent most of my life and like my career so far being
pretty reactive to what what the things that were thrown at me.
And I really, I'm really glad I've been like that.
I've not had a clear plan of action because I think that
feels unreasonable. In the world we live in, things
change constantly. And I don't have any sort of
specific, like, filmmaker heroes or people that I'd be like, oh,
that's the life. Exactly.
I want to have bloody film. Yeah.
You know, I watched some of them.
I loved Marty Supreme. Yeah.
Well done, Timmy. Big fans.
And I remember, OK, you know what, when I was like when I was
a teenager, I remember feeling like.
I I sort of made a decision to be like anything that was
distracting me is the thing that would, I would try and make my
main focus so that I, I was like, well, if I'm distracted by
obviously I care about it more. And then that's kind of a,
that's why, yeah. I kind of rule of thumb that I
sort of gave myself generally, yeah.
And it honestly resulted in like me doing all this.
So I've been a. Yeah, an amazing distraction.
Whatever kind of pulled my focus, I think became I just
like let let that be my focus. And the reason I maybe look
towards the idea of doing a film at some point in my life,
because it felt like it was a way to sort of really pin down
an idea and and really see it through from like start to
finish and in a really full way. And that's why I like, love the
idea of staying in this medium, you know, and that's not to say
I'm not going to continue to be distracted or yeah.
Or find other things like, you know, I, I, I do feel really
excited by the say, for example, the work I've done with Timothy.
For context, Timothy and I made a lot of stuff that's sort of in
support of the films that he puts out, but they're sort of
specific weird little capsules. Or like, it's really.
Cool that he's game for that. Yeah, it's because I think
that's kind of rare. Yeah, I remember when I saw your
Marty Ping Pong. Video firing Pongs at Timmy's
head. Yeah, I I remember being like,
oh, this is kind of like feels like an album roll out.
And I don't think that that happens too much in film.
And that's one thing that I've been really like super
interested in with our film. It's like, I don't know, it's
like, well, why would we? Just Obviously there's so much
more like protection around film.
I think in, in, in a way, like, you know, with music, it's like
everything leaks all the time. It's almost sort of a part of
like the law of something like people waiting for the leaks and
you know. Do you like leaks?
I used to hate them and now I don't care.
Right, right. Because I think it's it's like
fine. It's like, I don't actually
think it like does a disservice. I think it just like amplifies
noise. So I kind of think it's cool.
But I think with with film, there is still sort of a bit of
a old school format to you know, how to release something and how
to roll something out. And that's why I think like what
you and Timothy have done at different, you know, throughout
different films, whether it be like the Dylan movie or with
Marty, I think it really like punctuates the landscape and it
feels like something just different and cool and pop.
It's like. Pop cool.
I'm so glad because that also I think that's also part.
I feel like that's why we really connect because you're you are
specifically also really interested in or correct me if
I'm wrong, but interested in not just like being an artist, but
what it means to be an artist and what the industry feels like
or what you can do in that space.
Film is kind of this, you know, it's, it's this very traditional
medium. Maybe I don't want to say that
it's like, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a medium which is
like established. And there are, as you said,
there are ways of, of ruling things out and the idea of
basically doing something new or doing something fresh is really
exciting. So I mean, to answer your
earlier question, I'd love to keep making films because you
get to do it in this really full way.
But do you, do you feel the same way?
Do you feel like you are excited to to use film as a new way to
express your? Yeah, I mean, I like, I feel, I
feel like not, I mean at the end of last year, I I felt like not
super inspired by. I remember you saying.
I remember you saying, yeah, I'm.
Just it's like. You were almost like I'm done.
I'm done. I'm glad you're not.
You've made music. I've made music, yeah, but I it
took a second and, and to be fair, it always does.
After a record, I'm like, I'm done.
I'm never making music again. But this time it felt really
like, oh, like, I don't understand, like what music is.
Really it's. Just like.
You felt like you. There was nothing.
I was just like, this feels a little like, yeah, interesting.
I couldn't like get the juice. I couldn't like, I was like, I
don't know. I was just kind of like, I don't
feel particularly like music is like doing it for me right now.
It doesn't feel dangerous. You don't feel like it was your.
Whole career, I think it. Felt.
That's the first time you'd felt that way.
I think, yeah, I think in the past I had always felt that
music was like, volatile and dangerous for me, you know, like
I could get my highs and lows from it and my kind of like,
adrenaline rushes and things like that.
And then I was kind of like, oh, everything feels pretty flat.
Everything feels pretty safe. Like I wasn't feeling
particularly challenged by much. And so I think that's when I
kind of began. I mean, even prior to that, I
already was sort of leaning into like acting things.
But I think at that point I was like, yeah, I really, I'm not
really going to focus on like making music right now.
You want to find some that adrenaline.
The adrenaline, yeah. So is that kind of being your
driving force a lot of the time when you're making stuff?
Yeah, I think so. Well, I think my, my driving
force in life is to never be bored.
Yeah. Like, I talk about my it with my
therapist all the time. It's like the second I have to
like, sit in something. I mean, you're a bit like.
Yeah, we really are similar in that.
Except you don't like to be alone.
I actually do like to be alone. You can't really be alone.
You're always like, hello, where are you?
Yeah, like I'm alone, you know? Yeah, Otherwise it don't exist.
Yeah, yeah, totally. No one sees me.
No one sees the performance. Look at me.
I know, but I I think for me it's like the second I feel
bored. You.
Feel dead. Yeah.
Had you always been like that? Yeah.
Oh my God. I mean, it is also a problem.
It's like I have to work on it. Like I, I have to work on it.
I had to really work on it, especially in relationships, you
know? And so like with George, it's
like, I've really like, I found my person who I'm like,
actually, I can be like really calm and really still with you
because stillness with George isn't boring.
It's actually really fun. And other things I'm like.
Yeah, it's true because I have a really similar thing.
I have a really similar. It's honestly a formal for life
in general. Yeah, yeah.
A general fear of missing out and kind of wanting to like kind
of see as much as possible. It's that want to.
Why would you not? Like, why would you not try?
Yeah, I think it's like, it's also like sometimes it can be
humiliating because if you suck, you know, But you know what?
I'm like, that's actually a risk I'm willing to take.
I'm fine. I'm willing to take the risk
because everything's embarrassing anyway.
As Sky Ferrera, she once she really hit.
The. Nail on the bloody head.
Oh yeah. Well, I'm so like fuck it
because. You know what?
I actually felt really bored as a child.
A lot. I felt me.
Too. Yeah, I think me too, right.
We're backing some stuff now. I felt really, really bored
because I get out. Because you were like suburban,
like a suburban countryside child.
Yeah. And so was I.
I was like very close to the M11 roundabout.
Oh wow. Well then, come on, you weren't
bored. You had so many cars to look
spinning around it. Was there's one down?
I didn't live on the M11 roundabout.
All right, shit now. Right in the middle.
But anyways, yeah, I don't know. What?
Yeah, but sorry, being a suburban kind of bored.
Teenager. Yeah, yeah.
And, and The thing is, you know, I was actually talking to, I
spoke with, with Jack Antonoff about this.
It's like he was like in New Jersey.
He's a similar boards teenager. Well, yeah, he but he.
But The thing is, it's like it was like New York was just over
the hill. Like it's not actually that far
away. And that was the same, same
thing with me. It was like London was actually
not that far. Like you could kind of see it in
your peripheral vision. Like it was like so close you
could almost reach out and touch it.
And that in a way it was almost like that drove the dry that
drove. Yeah, you were like.
Almost there. There was the drive was so there
to get to go because it wasn't actually like super far away.
And I think like, for me as well, like, you know, going back
to like, the Internet, like, I was watching so much stuff
happening in London online. Like nuke them all, Yeah, cool.
Did you guys say nuke them all? I.
Went to two. I played at two kind of towards
the end. Whoa.
And you were like 15? Yeah.
That went with my parents. Did you OK?
Did you feel like when you'd done that, was that you're like,
I've done what I've been dreaming of doing?
I was like, did you feel that? Yeah, I was like, oh, I'm cool.
Just for clarity, Newcomall was like a club night, very sort of
like new rave. Yeah, to define new rave, it's a
lot of like, like like plastic shutter shadesy.
Yeah. Teapot necklace situations.
Is that you? I had a teapot necklace, yeah.
No way. Yeah, big way right made.
And the necklace was like made out of ribbons.
And then you might like wear a cone on your hair.
It's kind of almost like there's a, kind of like a accessorizing
American Apparel vibe to it. Exactly.
Bright neon colour. It felt very like, like
disposable. Yeah.
Primarky. So I think they like no.
And I don't. Know I think they know like what
new rave is. No.
Who? Who's that?
I don't know. What?
Who's? Listening.
Who's listening? Well, that's the thing, I'm just
sort of doing it for like just my mum.
I give my mum's. Watch.
Yeah, my mum too. Yeah, good point.
My mum's definitely going to watch.
Oh yeah. Oh, my dad definitely watch.
Do your parents like, are they, do they engage?
They don't have Instagram, OK. But they do, my mum does.
She told me she googles me, which is actually really fun.
Well she have Google alerts on. I don't think she's mum.
Do you know how to do that? I don't think she knows, right?
Maybe I don't want to doubt her, you know, media literacy or
Google Googling skills. But she is.
Wait, I have a funny thing. Sorry, Sean Price Williams told
me that he has Google Alerts on for us.
Isn't that so sweet? Well, it's actually more me than
you, but I thought that was quite sweet.
I also, I don't know if he was lying.
He could have been lying to, well, that's.
Really. That's really sweet.
I, I don't have, I don't think she's got Google Earth on, but
that's how she's sort of keeping up.
So she'll mention, you know, that my mum watched the guest
music video. And.
She said. She said this takes some getting
used to. But you know, I think my mum was
kind of, there's a lot of kind of underwear being ripped off
and I think it was actually very open minded of her to say great,
great stuff you got going on there.
Then we've got to do real. But yeah, I, I feel similarly
like being being bored as a teenager.
I had no real frame of reference for like what what you could do
as a job or what was feasible or what was like what's in school.
Well, I think is really cool about you, almost like knowing
as a 15 year old, I mean I. Didn't I Didn't really know.
I I wasn't. Going for it, maybe that's what
I mean, Like going for it as a 14 year old.
It's very cool to be that unembarrassed, you know what I
mean? As a teenager.
Yeah, but also, don't you think like, I mean, I'm a bit older
than you, obviously. You're 13 hours older, yeah. 30
now that we're in 2026. Yes, exactly.
And did you make it into the list?
The list of 29 directors who are 29.
Yeah, Did you? Well, do you know what, in
theory I finished, we finished the film when I was 29, right?
But unfortunately. But you can still be in 30 under
30. Do you know what?
Because you're 30. They did they?
What did you say? No, not.
That's bad. But I was like, I was kind of
about like, it's too much about money.
Right. That I just didn't want to
present myself as an entrepreneur.
Well, they asked, they asked me to like apply and I, I just like
don't want to be an entrepreneur.
Cool. Which is, you know.
I that's cool. But when I was 14, there was, so
there was, there was just a lot less embarrassment in general
because even though obviously it was like we were all documenting
ourselves on the Internet, whether that be like Myspace or
MSN or Bebo or whatever, it was sort of like it was different.
The word is now. Didn't really.
No, no, I don't remember thinking.
I was so cringe. Yeah, like good.
And and yeah, thank God. Like, thank God.
But it's like, you know, it's like it's, it's just so
different now. Like I, I remember when I first
heard about Billy Eilish. Yeah.
And she how old? I mean, what she was like 14
when she blew up. Like maybe yeah, I I something
like that, right. I just, I just remember being
like, wow, this is a girl who has so much taste.
Yeah, yeah. Genuinely.
Yeah, yeah. Like so much taste like really
knows how to like compile an image and.
Have a point of view and have a. Point of view and and and it's
really like well thought out and solid.
And, you know, then I think about me when I was 14 and my
God, it's so. It was so.
But but I didn't have, I didn't have this.
And I'm not saying that This is why Billy's work.
It was like that. Like, honestly, she really just
does have great tastes. Yeah, I think so.
But like when I was 14, I didn't have, like, the parameters of
embarrassment to keep me from doing insane stuff.
Like I feel like when you're when you're thinking about like
what the way things could be received or the commentary
around your work, it, it definitely makes you like think
twice about stuff. Like for example, when I play a
demo to someone that I haven't played it played for before,
like I'm suddenly when I'm sitting listening to the song,
playing it to a friend, suddenly I hear the song on a different
night. I'm like, Oh my God, what are
they thinking about now? They're thinking about this.
Wait, that lyric was really lame.
But like, when I was 14 and like, dressing up and taking
pictures of myself and like making music, I wasn't thinking
about that at all. There was like a freedom.
And that's an audience in your hand.
No, and that's why a lot of it is really cringe.
That's why I made a song called I Want to Be Darth Vader or
Dinosaur Sex. So amazing.
Do you know those songs? Yeah.
T Rex dinosaur sex. Yeah, I obviously got there.
Watch me roll, watch me roll, watch me be like a dinosaur
It's. So cool.
It's so cool. You're 15.
I had. A story So I was 1414.
Years a lot crazy. It's like a bit, do you know
what I mean? Like that is a bit mad.
That is bonkers. But it is no shame that you do,
no. Shame, that is so exciting.
I would on stage, I would like, I'd be like going like that,
like folly, insane. And I was wearing like old shoes
and I had like bones in my hair. Yeah, it was like totally
embarrassing. I had.
No, I was just like. This is great.
I really wish I was able to completely murder the any idea
of like an audience inside my head at any point.
Do you know what I mean? So.
Do you are you thinking about an audience?
I. Are more just the thing that you
said like when you start to imagine you start to like really
project things into when people are experiencing your stuff.
Sometimes it's helpful. It's funny when you say that
thing about a demo or like playing a demo to someone and
you suddenly hear it completely differently.
It's like now when we when we were making the film, it was
like anytime, anytime I had to watch an edit the whole way
through, I wasn't really able to watch it alone.
I had to bring a new person in completely.
You see things or you feel things, whatever that you've
never felt before, you've never noticed before, or whatever,
remember. The first time I saw it I was
like, why are you looking at me? Just tell the fuck out.
Well, you know. And I'd be like and you'd be
like. I'd see where your eyes widened.
No true. I mean nightmare experience to
watch this film with me. I'd have to say for anyone that
had to do it, I'd go to you. Great, thanks.
It is horrible because obviously the vibe would be kind of like I
had like press play on it and I kind of set like this the whole
time. Do you should say the name of
our film? Oh, God, yeah.
It's called sorry. The moment.
Yeah, yeah, that's it. That's it.
That's. It I don't think we need to like
say anything else about it. No, just watch it.
It's. Fine, Yeah, well, hopefully.
Oh my God, If you guys don't like it, there's there's.
Only 100 people watching. This all our friends OK, Thanks
guys. I think they I think they were
that I this is my prediction, right?
I feel like when. It's only aware of the audience.
When this comes what we're talking about, then we're being
better. We're just talking about it now
we're going to talk about it. My thought is when this comes
out, that's sort of like, I mean, I don't even want to like
be too generous. When you say this comes out this
podcast, podcast. Video.
I don't even know where this goes.
Whatever, when this comes out I reckon there'll be 5000 people
who are like interested in it and then I think after the 1st 5
minutes there'll be a huge drop. Off Wow, I've got.
Some and then I think maybe like 100 people will stay to the end,
I think because we're like banging on like La La la.
Yeah, I I have a different theory.
I have a different theory. I think, I think more than 5000,
all of them get the analytics back a 24.
I think it will be top to bottom because we'll add in like
explosion sounds right, That's cool.
And sort of it's going to. Be when you do that.
Right. Like some ticking time and stuff
like that, Things that drive up tension.
You know what else I actually think?
I think actually maybe like even less than 5000 people will watch
this because actually what will happen is there'll be some clips
that appear on TikTok, keep breaking the 4th 1:00 and then
people will just watch them instead.
Oh, they were funny there. Let's put that up.
On I have a skewed perspective because I've watched all of your
interviews, like in full, right? Yeah, every podcast.
I really like the Emma Chamberlain one.
Yeah, that was a really good one.
Yeah, they're all great. I really like the one you did
with that. There was a lady talking to you
and you're on a stage, you know, a big white dress on.
Oh, that was Wow. You watched that?
That was was that for resident advisor?
Yes. Yeah, I also thought that was.
I thought she. Was I thought I was OK?
Well, I thought. Yes, I mean like she allowed you
to be amazing. I thought it was quite funny in
that. Yeah, you.
Were great. I thought you were really
fucking. I felt I felt funny how white
was tiny bit hungover. See, like today.
Are you a bit hungover? And I kind of I didn't because I
mean we. We went out last night.
We kind of went to this sort of like vodka place by the
recommendation of Sean Price Williams.
Russian vodka bar is always. Cool.
Yeah, it was No, because it wasn't that one, because we
wanted to go to that one that was like called some whatever, I
don't know. And show and orders a carafe of
garlic vodka. Disgusting.
Some people are really into it. And horseradish and horseradish
vodka tastes like a Sunday roast.
Yeah. And anyway, I actually didn't.
I felt kind of great this. Morning.
Well, I drank a bottle of wine in in the scene that we were.
Filming. Yeah, and we did offer you up
just like normal fluid, like water or coloured water.
Yeah, but what I like about you is obviously your method.
Exactly. And you meant well, I need to
chug the wine. Or else how you're going to get
the correct kind of, Yeah, you know.
Yeah, I mean, don't put that out there.
What else is going on in your life?
You're such a good interviewer. You're.
Keeping us on track. No, you are.
You are. Steering us to some kind of a
destination. Yeah, I really like this
question. What else going on in my life?
I like that you asked what sort of the future hold do.
You think you'd ever write something and then not direct
it? Or would you be like having a
breakdown about? That I I like.
I like directing. I I like right guys, that's the
script. I really enjoyed writing with
Bertie Bertie Brandeis, who's Co writer of the moment.
You know, the way that we would write would be like setting
together, kind of doing impressions and like yapping and
then writing that down. It feels really like generative
or whatever, but I really enjoy being on set and doing you know.
So no, I mean, I don't know. I don't think, I don't know if I
would write something to to. I think I'd direct other
people's. Writing.
Yeah, I was going to ask that you would if if someone else
wrote you something, you'd. I think so.
Possibly directed? I think so, because that's like
making a music video. Someone else wrote this song.
OK, what about you? Do you think you ever want to?
Obviously you want to act and do more acting, but do you?
Would you ever want to write and direct or anything?
I am writing. Yeah, you are.
You've read the thing, I've read bets.
You read the thing, though. OK, Yeah.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
Yeah. Yeah.
OK, Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm going to, I'm going to
start writing that like actually like anyways, that's exciting.
You know, you're. Going to and when do you want to
start doing? That I don't I've started.
Oh wow, crazy. I started in 2025.
Wow. And would you want to direct
that or? Not Well, this is the thing I
right now have no interest in directing.
Really. Yeah, I you know what?
I actually don't think I have the I know I, I mean I feel like
from watching you work, there is a lot of like instinct and just
taste involved, which I think you have.
I do have, but I don't think I have the technical understanding
like you. You understand light very well
and I, I just like really don't like I, I have no idea how to
get a certain look with light. Like I don't understand.
And maybe in, I know that there are some people who just like
work with great teams who can figure that out, but I wouldn't
even understand how to like communicate the language.
I could bring a like a reference, but you know, and I
think stuff like that is like, I think you have such a style
you've really like honed and worked through and like, maybe
if I did, you know, do stuff for long enough, I could find I
think you. Would find it easy genuinely, I
think you would find it easy because it's like watching you
record music with AG and Fenn. It's honestly a very similar
process because it's like even if it's like even if you're
speaking about it in kind of abstract terms, that's like you
also like speaking speaking about it, you know, and I think
any technical knowledge that I have of light or photography or
anything like that has I didn't like start with that.
I like, you know, I just kind of kept accumulating or whatever.
But it's really like, you know, I also know people that don't
that direct really well or take photos really well.
They don't have like don't have the kind of technical language
for it. I think it is a technical Yeah.
No, you know, I think you could I.
Yeah, I think, I think I'd be, I'd be very nervous too.
I think I respect directors so much and maybe I even like put
too much response. Yeah, maybe.
But like, I, I think I also, I would just, I would want to, if
I ever did it, I would want to like come at this level that was
like, oh, she's like not coming to play.
Just like have a real fucking like stance, have a fucking
point of view. And like, I think it would take
me a while to like figure out that language visually.
I mean, maybe not, Maybe I. Don't know.
I mean, it's like you've, you've almost like.
You know what that other thing is?
Fucking edit my. God, that is that.
Is like what? Like I that, yeah, I think like
just logistically, I, I probably could like shoot a film.
Whatever like. I would have to like hone the
language and all that shit, but like the patience, I'm not
patient. I think you would be able to do
it, but it's more like you would.
It would be so unenjoyable. Yeah, because you moves.
It's also, again, so interesting thing about the way that you
work or like, you know, when you're recording in Paris.
I was really impressed by how how in a way that I like don't
work of like how instinctive and how quickly you move through
things like when you're making stuff and it was like, say, for
example, for a peek behind the curtain if I'm allowed to.
What I found particularly interesting is that you, AG and
Finn don't really talk necessarily about like the
concept you're trying to achieve that you don't like chat too
much about it. You just straight up do it and
it's really reactive and like someone will make something
someone will like jump off of that You like, alright, you'll
be like sort of there writing something on your phone and
you're like, alright, cool. I think I've got an idea.
Go into the the booth, the microphone area and just do it.
And it's like, and even after that, no one's like talking
about it to trying to over intellectualize what it is,
because all all of the intelligence is in the actual
work. You know, it's like you're like
speaking through the working. Like that's it, which I find
really cool actually, and really bold because I'm just like, you
know, I you obviously know me. I love to yap.
And I also know that like when I'm doing something, I'm like
talking about it, even though I think that's helpful for me.
And I talk about things so intensely and like this means
this and this means this and this it actually like all of
that. Yapping doesn't necessarily mean
something. Let's find its way into the
thing you know. I rarely, I rarely will go back
and work on a song twice. Really.
Like like, I don't mean, I don't mean like, like we will
obviously we'll yeah, we'll work on the song.
But generally speaking, it's like I don't sit and live with
something and then be like, oh, actually like I should change
the verse on this. Like a couple of times that's
happened, happened with some of the Wuthering Heights stuff.
But like generally speaking, I'm like the most spontaneous idea
is the thing. And whenever I do have to go
back in and finesse stuff, I just find it then it feels a bit
more like work. And so that's why I think for me
with like an edit, obviously you're kind of going in many,
many, many times and sort of reshaping and moving.
And that was be really hard for me.
It makes a lot of sense that you are.
So I mean, speaking about like they're not wanting to be bored
or whatever and like as an in a positive way, it's kind of cool
that you're like, oh, running with something while still got
magic or whatever. And actually it's something that
I wish that my job allowed for more because it's like, say, for
example, I'm like when when we did when we did the music better
forget for guess that's the that is the most condensed timeline I
I will ever be able to get to work on.
You know, like basically receiving a song, thinking of an
idea, shooting it and then putting it out in the space of
about a week is crazy mental. No one should ever do it.
I don't recommend that in terms of like making stuff.
Yeah, yeah, you do. I mean, I do actually.
I was, you know, you're it's honestly, yeah, you are right.
I actually loved doing that because it was like, it's what
you're sort of saying of getting to kind of keep that magic
really in it and really have have a kind of sense of
adrenaline with it and it feel really like vital and immediate
or whatever. And.
Yeah, I'm leaving. Right.
Great. Thanks so much for the extra.
So wait, what do we do for the? OK, let's really like quick fire
like. Oh my God, can I ask you a
really fun question? This might take more than five,
who knows? So Bertie actually came up with
a really good game where she said, imagine we are trying to
resurrect you and there's a cauldron and you have to put in
four items that would bring you back from the dead.
And you also have to think about what song would be playing and
then so you put in the things. So for example.
I can do yours. You can do mine.
OK, OK. OK.
OK.
There's the cauldron.
In the cauldron goes a carabina because I know that you really
like them. I think you'd be trying to like
reach for it, model it for them A we'll be reaching for Academy
AI. Think Paulina your.
Girlfriend, she'd just. Be in the cauldron going to.
Help. Doesn't that sacrifice her?
We'll see you. But you have to come back to the
live to say. That she's going to get.
And her little hat is sort of bobbling on the surface.
That's really sweet. She's holding.
Onto the. Caribbean, yeah.
You know, kind of pull herself out like that, kind of sort of
real and then like a film. Yeah.
And then I think what things you like.
You also kind of need to sort of span sort of my entire identity
sort of in these four objects. Right.
OK, so I've got your girlfriend. And a Caribbean.
A Caribbeaner? Quite clear.
I mean, there's probably like a, it's a bit boring.
There's like a camera in there. Maybe it's actually a phone more
than a camera 'cause I feel like.
A phone more than a camera. Well, yeah, because then you can
yap away to all of your. Friends.
Yeah, and you can also take pics.
Yeah. No, that's a fair right.
Yeah, maybe. It's just a bummer that it's a
phone. OK, fine.
It's a camera. OK, alright, cool camera that a
camera that can make phone calls.
Well, no, because that's a phone.
Isn't it? Yeah, it's a phone.
Yeah, but it's a big lens. There's a big.
Camera in. We'll put a camera in and then I
think you need a muse in there. So it's gotta be like me or
Timothy and yeah, and I'm going in.
Right, got you. You know, then he's starting the
pot. He can, he he's, he's like.
This great great great like this.
Love. You know, love.
Yeah. And then the song that's playing
is that role model song that you like.
Some protector. Well, how's it go, AM?
I guilty am I Sorry to miss you at the party.
And then you're like this coming.
Out and I come out like that great and.
Then you sort of are doing like that pose that you do in the
mirror. Way.
Yeah, what I do is I kick one knee out like that, you know,
sort of one like that and I kind of throw all my jaw upwards.
I don't know I was doing it. Your shoes.
Yeah, and anyways. So then you're you're a
cauldron. Sorry about your feet.
So that's are you, was that good?
That was amazing. I'm really happy with that.
OK, great. I'm really happy with that.
So you and Pauline are on a cauldron with carabiner with
carabiner and a camera. And.
It's good. It's good.
It's good because I will normally no.
It speaks to my love of others. It speaks to my how I'm made-up
of, you know, the people I love. We make you.
So for you, you know, I don't want to be too reductive and say
like, you know, backlighter and a pack of parliament and.
A strappy white top. And a strappy white top, but I
think that as a small package is.
One item, a zip lock. Bag exactly.
Zip lock bag. So it's sort of like almost in a
bag, you know what I mean? Right, so you are defining me by
the fucking album then. Exactly.
Great, but you know, it's one shade.
It's one shade and so Ziploc bag Parliament cigs beck lighter
strappy white top. I haven't worn A strappy white
top for a long time and also I've started smoking capris
actually. Okay, but then that speaks to
your history. All right, fine.
Yeah. I'd actually throw in trying to
think something. What?
How can I sort of do it without a Swedish flag, You know, I
mean, something that speaks to your love of Sweden.
Do that. Does that disappoint you?
No, no, I think that's cool, but I don't think it should be the
flag. Or like a, or like a, you know,
a Swedish studio. Like we could package off like
that, a little studio space, crush it down, throw it in.
I do think it'd be quite good to chop George.
Yeah, I know. That's like, you know.
That's, well, you. Came up with doing spouses in
the cauldron. Yeah, add chop George and let's
put him head first, I think. Shirt unbuttoned, you know what
I mean? That kind of way he's wearing a
kind of silk shirt. He's like, oh fuck, Chuck him
in. And final final item is.
Who's going to stir it? OK, the ones the person's
stirring, I kind of want it to be.
Or maybe it's me, if you don't mind, if you want.
Me to stir it. What's the song?
And then the song would be a Lou Reed song.
I think it would be perfect day. Yeah, that's quite nice.
Sad. Yeah, but that's you've got a
bit of that in you. Yeah.
All the other stuff was quite fun.
Good to have an aura of sadness. No, it is.
And I just do want to speak to your sort of your, your growing
up. And it's maybe like, honestly,
maybe it's the teapot necklace or something just to kind of
throw it back to that on. The new rave day.
From a new rave A new rave teapot.
Because it's also, as well as some sadness, there's also a lot
of embarrassment within me. Actually, thing exactly exactly
I didn't. Feel it back.
There. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Post.
It's sort of a what's. The Sheen of youth fades away.
It's an embarrassed autopsy of you.
Yeah. I mean, that's like a Lou Reed
song. Yeah.
Any other quick fires or do we wrap it up?
No, I think it's done, isn't? It I'm so hungry.
Well, what's, what are you going to do this year just to wrap it
up? Put out a movie?
We're putting a film out and yeah.
And. We're continuing off.
Collaboration, friendship, business for business,
entrepreneurial spirit. Yeah.
Will be on Forbes duo's under 40.
Yeah, this year. Love you so much.
Love you. Thank you for talking to me for
so long. Thanks to the one viewer still
tuned. In Hey.
Thanks your mum and my dad. I think my mum might be on board
by now. OK, I think your dad.
No, he's in till the end. He's on to the end.
Thanks, John.