Okay, we're doing it. Okay, this is Robert Eggers.
This is re Esther. And yeah, we're doing the a24
podcast which is cool. We're doing it together.
Yeah, which feels appropriate given that we're both friends
totally and to like each other's work and the same stuff.
Yeah speaking of which we have a goal which is we're trying to
orient this discussion around the work.
Work of ingmar Bergman. We probably won't succeed but
we're going to give it a shot. Yeah, I thought you I thought
you were joking when you first suggested it, but I'm excited to
dive in. I know that we're both devotees.
You can probably see it in our work feels appropriate.
Yeah, we met a couple years ago. I was doing like a it wasn't
really a friends-and-family screening of hereditary.
It was but it was like the because I well I think they're
our friends and family of a 24, but I didn't know anybody there.
Yeah. It's We're asked me to go to a
screening of something that I didn't know anything about it.
So everything was a horror movie.
I think was the first of those that we had done and the room,
you know, like did not seem to love it.
And I remember going up in front of the going up in front of
everyone who had just seen the film like very like Stern faces
that were like ready to cut me down to size and you and your
wife Ali were sitting like near the front and you give me like
two thumbs up and yet A very warm smile on your face and it's
like I I like held on to that as my lifeline as people in the
room proceeded to explain to me that you know, I was a bastard
and I and I you know, I made a worthless moving.
Yeah. Well you did not I was totally
blown away I especially cuz I had no expectations and and and
it was fantastic and it was really I mean it was so smart
and truly Inspiring to me and I was really like the some of the
craft of the camera work. I didn't even perceive because I
was so impressed with the breadcrumbs that you are laying
with the with the screenplay. And anyway, it was a real joy,
and I had the great pleasure of seeing the or a finished version
of mid Samar last night and it was great.
It was great. I also I mean I also saw like an
earlier version and I you know, I don't know what you cut but I
felt like them was was tighter at had way more shit in it.
Yeah, you know that when you like finish something When the
Music's there and the color it does just feel yeah.
It's more substantial for sure for sure.
It's really excellent. And so now to try to shoehorn
wait, wait, hold on. Oh that I just need to like I
cannot like receive a compliment without like reciprocating when
when I have one to give because eyes so I have not seen the
finished. Version of the lighthouse but I
did see a cut that was nearly finished and I have the feeling
that you would never show a cut to anybody that isn't nearly
finished. I I love the lighthouse and I'm
so excited to see what it is now that it's done.
But what I saw I felt finished well, thank you.
Like it's so beautiful. So beautifully done and really
funny. I know I've said this before For
and you've had kind of an inscrutable Expressions, I don't
know if this like if this feels right to you, but it really made
me think of Harold Pinter who I love and I mean, I can't really
think of any other work that feels like Harold Pinter
besides, you know, I mean, like what else plays like the servant
or you know, no man's land or like, you know the homecoming
and and this spelt to me a total like spiritual sibling and and
even though it reminds me. Of Harold Pinter it also it
reminds me of nothing else including Harold Pinter just
feels it just feels like totally unique and yeah, it's okay.
Okay. Okay.
Well, thank you. Thank you.
That's really early winter by way of no.
No, that's way too kind of wave Bella.
Terra would say pretty incredible.
Well, thank you. Thank you that that's like far
too kind. All right.
I'm on this Bergman Mission. Damn it.
Okay. So everyone has close-ups like
Bergman doesn't own close-ups, but there's something Less in
some of the center framed things in the latter portion of mid
some are but the earliest stuff with Danny gave a sort of berg
many vibe to me and I know that just because the movie takes
place in Sweden. I feel like people talk about
Bergman in relation to Mid sommar in a way that maybe is
like inappropriate, you know tarkovsky sacrifice people would
always say that it's Bergman task which would really piss him
off because he said this Has nothing to do with Bergman films
except for spending this well, yeah, it's like it's like if you
have bergman's entire crew. Yeah designing and shit and film
yoseob sense. He's in the film.
Yeah. It's going to feel a little Burg
mini right? I mean, we've talked a lot about
Bergman before he's you know a hero of mine.
I love his films. I was thinking a lot more about
his work when I was making hereditary particularly.
Cries and Whispers And I showed the crew Autumn Sonata because
of the mother-daughter parallels.
Yeah. I mean nobody shoots close-ups
like him. I definitely when we were making
hereditary again. I made my cinematographer
pavel's poker. Gel ski is also one of my best
friends. I made him watch Persona.
Just cause I think those are like the most beautiful
close-ups I've ever seen and I'm numb and I feel like there is
this it's It's like a recent Trend but I'm seeing filmmakers
like really clearly chasing the Berkman close up.
Even if you look at like PT Anderson who loved to talk early
in his career about how he was like kind of chasing the
Jonathan Demi close up, you know in the windows look especially
starting with the master that he's moving kind of like away
from Demi and Scorsese and Yamin towards especially Bergman in in
the way. He frames close-ups and you
know, obviously Kubrick To but I yeah there is this like the Box
quality right where you give just enough?
Yeah, you know Headroom and and you typically like bring the
camera like two or three inches below the nose and it's and and
you and you shooting in like 2 to 1 is that is a nice
compromise for getting scoped and still getting really healthy
close-ups where you're not like chopping people's like
headpieces. This is there is out of their
heads off so you it was it's nice to see I I love to to one
II know that we Prevail and I chose two to one for hereditary
because it was like Douglas sirk's yeah favorite aspect
ratio or like, you know, his chosen aspect ratio.
And you know, we were making, you know this domestic movie set
in the house and yeah, it feels it feels right.
It's like how do you get the height like, you know the width
but also like some of the height but when you're indoors like
that can box you in and then I was kind of surprised that we
Landed on that for Midsomer because we you know, we said
like let's try something else and then we just I mean on paper
two to one for Midsummer seems like a perfect like I could see
something box like one six six, even for hereditary.
You went with Academy right for we went with 1-6 6-4 the which
we didn't want to go so boxy as Academy, but we wanted we did
want X more height for for trees.
And we did want something box here for the interiors.
And of course so that film we shot on Alexa and because for
anamorphic because the sensors for three and we were using
these like old lenses. We were actually you got more of
the like lens characteristic that was really cool and
something that then for the lighthouse shooting on 35
millimeter in an even stupider aspect ratio.
We were able to take advantage of so like going going back to
this the close-ups. It's really fascinating to see
the progression that I'll actually start with Virgin
Spring which is the first spending goes.
Yes, the first venue confessed and to see in the the faith
Trilogy and the early like series the work on trying to
capture naturalistic lighting and I feel like shame sort of is
the most realistically lit of all of the of the nyqvist
Bergman collaborations then Come out on the other end with the
super super flat color lighting that like to for certainly for
my own films. I would never ever ever in a
million years want to emulate who knows but right now like
that seems like so far away from what I'm doing.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it because it's
obviously they were trying to like over bergman's career and
their collaboration looking for Simplicity great and also
lighting that on the He's people you could capture like every
emotion any change of color of Flesh color in the cheek.
You could you could get it with this kind of lighting.
And what's also really interesting is that in some
parts of Fanny and Alexander. It's weirdly atmospheric, even
though actually has no fucking atmosphere if you know I'm
saying so I know I know I know my curmudgeonly DP Jaron
blaschke sort of bothers him. Well, you know, I see what
you're saying, especially yeah, I Guess shame would be the most
naturalistic. Although I guess like passion of
Anna is like the color version of the color version of that.
Yeah, which is it's like pretty drab.
Yeah, and then I definitely see what you mean about the flatness
of like for instance his TV work like scenes from a marriage, but
even even it's even like even cries and Whispers is pretty
flat. I mean, I know that there's like
think about like all the like the fill and the night Interiors
like he certainly never like he's never like trying he's not
saying this is a match. Each.
All right, our wolves better example, right even though this
is the lighting a little more stylized an hour of the wolf.
But like this is a match and I'm going to have a lamp set up to
like try to emulate like what this lamp light or this matched
light it Fire Light is doing on someone's face.
Like it's lit theatrically it with some Phil and there is some
Shadow but I'm not worrying about the Practical light source
would be the light source. No, that's true.
Yeah. I don't know if like he would
argue, you know kind of blurring the line between a dream and
reality. That's for sure that that might
Be convenient. I mean certainly in cries and
Whispers it actually maybe helps, you know, well and also
also like those those red rooms the flatness of the lighting is
really serving the film Well, you certainly wouldn't
experience the rooms as read if it were if it were yeah, I'd
more Curious Cara. Yeah, and they're well and you'd
have a lot more of you know contrast in the Reds exactly but
there is something about just like that like fire truck red.
It's amazing. That's just so powerful and also
like just like shows his background in the theater.
Yeah. Yeah, so like for listeners who
may not know like Bergman like one of his his final Masterpiece
or whatever Fanny and Alexander. He said he was retiring for
making films and he retired for making films that were supposed
to be released theatrically, but he still need a lot of TV movies
and TV plays even if any bugs and it was also made for TV and
probably my despite it being a TV movie.
It's probably my favourite film. Yeah.
It's amazing. It's got his like trademark
brutality. He's got the the the The
monologue that like seems to make its way in almost every
Bergman film where like a man like positions a woman in front
of a mirror and just like and reserved our dresses her down.
But but also it's I think it's the one Bergman movie where the
comedy like holds up today all the like 50s comedies and like
the one or two early 60s comedies.
I just want to I can't stand them.
I don't like Smiles of a summer night.
Even I like it. It's good farce.
It's not my favorite, but it works.
As far as but ya know Fanny and Alexander, you've got to fart
jokes. Yeah, and they're in their den
with the you know, the yeah the drama of um, okay.
So I think like the a 24 gods are not smiling on us for being
maybe like to obscure what feel like we could get more obscure.
Oh we could but like, you know, let's see, but yeah, it's cool.
I mean to also think about but what about tarkovsky's influence
on Bergman well Tarkovsky is influence on Bergman.
I mean, I know that the two loved each other.
I wonder if I wonder if seeing Andrei rublev like did anything.
Yeah, I mean perform like bergman's check because Bergman
changed so much so much these like from through a glass
Darkly, which is also I guess while he was location Scouting
For That film he like he found four which is you know, the
island that he spent the rest of his life on yeah.
I wonder if like there's some something about fora that like
change his Outlook even made these like two documentaries,
but for that plays sort of like a Michael apted like Up Up
series contribution. Yeah.
Yeah, and so he like became obsessed with this place.
Anyway, we are probably moving into like obscure territory, but
well, but I will like I just like there is a couple like for
my understanding he saw Yvonne's childhood and that began to get
him to try to create Cinema as dream.
In a way, I mean not that he hadn't done that before but he
felt like that was a key for him.
And then there's a story about him and spend nyqvist watching
Andrei rublyov at like 1:00 a.m. With no subtitles.
Just like oh my God, this is the greatest thing I've ever seen
and I just love that image, you know, but but yeah, okay and
then tarkovsky kind of abandoned like the style of those two
films, which I actually I mean under blood for me is definitely
like the peak. I mean the staging of the Bell
making stuff is just Any time you watch it.
You can't believe it talk about not having a sophomore slump
like it's like holy cow. It's so impressive.
So what about everyone's least favorite topic certainly mine
genre our films and genre. Like I've like cries and
Whispers is way scarier than any horror film and an hour of the
wolf is not as scary as cries and Whispers even though that's
the closest thing. Thing Bergman made to a horror
film in most people's mind cries and Whispers our life of
marionettes orbit. Also like him like desperately
packing like everything. He like took from Freud and like
just like eating being as literal as yeah, as one could
possibly be. Yeah, but but like like what
about genre? And I mean, I like I think
hereditary is a horror movie like Ivo.
Yeah for people who not like it's not like I get why yeah.
Yeah. Actually don't get why I like
i-i-i mean Is like absolutely unabashedly a horror film like
that was the goal and I feel like I was like Miss quoted like
crazy. I mean, I'd rather like just
never speak ever and just like release the movie sure you have
to do the press and yeah, it's just a Minefield because you
just say something kind of flippantly and then it becomes
like your statement on the film, but no like Wizard of Oz for
perverts. Yeah, which I was like drunk and
you know, I mean I'm fine with it.
But yeah, but I wouldn't want it to be you know, like my mom did
Cover of the blue. Ray I hereby designate it Samara
right Wizard of Oz for permits the dead that was not my
intention but like it was the first thing I said and like now
it's you know the last word but I think I said something about
like, you know, it's a it's a family tragedy that like becomes
like a nightmare in the fact that I like wasn't actually
using the word horror. It is somehow the Omission
became like a statement. But yeah, it's a horror movie of
course like that. That's what I want to do it
there people like crawling on the walls, you know, yeah for
sure. Our and then you know mid some
are is maybe something else? I don't know.
I mean, it's horror adjacent. I feel like yeah, I feel like an
asshole even saying the word adjacent.
I see it as a fairy tale more than anything especially because
of just like her trajectory like her Arc.
If anything I think like the trick of the movie or like what
I was what I kind of got excited about doing was like everybody
else like every other visitor in that film including her
boyfriend like it's a folk horror movie like without any
shame or without any like pretensions to something else.
It's a folk horror movie, but for her, it's like this perverse
wish-fulfillment fantasy that like, you know is just
ultimately a fairytale wear like this community could be seen as
a, you know date. I want them to be read at least
on first viewing before you kind of get a sense of what this
thing really is like that they're like this real place
with like a real history and like Rich traditions.
But you know, I can't watch the film anymore without seeing them
like as strictly manifestations of Danny's like will and it's
cool the this version the finished version, you know, or
maybe it's also just watching it again because as we all know
watching films multiple times is important to really
understanding them. It felt so much more from
Danny's perspective partially and some of the like visual
effects treatment two things, but even just in the editing
choices that at least that's how I appearance at the second time
and and and everything you're saying like we're everything you
just said really resonated with my experience of watching it the
second time last night. That's great.
So it was it was pretty sick. By the way.
Did you ever watch any of those like 70s English TV folk horror
like mr.james things that I sent you my God, I didn't it's okay
fuck. No, I was really excited about
it. But you sent it to me exactly at
the time where like where you were done was neglecting
everything that anybody At me and I understand and I like, you
know just burned like every bridge in my life.
That's fine except for with the people who know what it's like
to make a movie and like, you know, just kind of yeah, you're
going to be Emma here and it's fine before we move on.
I want to know like, you know, what what genre you'd like place
the which in but I'm really interested to know like how you
might categorize the lighthouse. Yeah, I would again I completely
understand why people don't see the witch as a horror movie that
it was certainly my attempt to make a horror movie.
So, I saw it. Is that even though certainly
like the family drama is more important.
I mean like you see it a witch flying on a broomstick.
I mean, maybe that's scary but like that certainly it's
awesome. It's really were trouble.
Whatever should be even if it wasn't successfully so but for
my money that was horror and the lighthouse if I've had to like
designate a genre it would be the literary genre of a of a
weird tale like Mr. James, Blackwood.
But is something else you can then that but that would sort of
be even have the octopus right exactly left graph exactly.
But but but it certainly was just something idea that I had
that got out of control and my brother and I wrote it and had
it had fun. But I think it's also funny how
the different ways in which odours of a certain caliber like
will or won't talk about Jean. You or say their film is genre
or like laughs off the idea of genre being important and even
more interestingly is where people who are sort of
sophisticated filmmakers feel that like horror genre.
Whatever that means to them is like not something that one
could consider art that can really talk about what it means
to be a human being but is rather just some sort of cheap
commercial thing, but obviously these whores Stories things like
hereditary that actually do like probe the darker side of
humanity in like a serious way. Like that's incredibly
important. Yeah and and should be respected
man. Yeah.
No, I agree. I mean there was at least like a
five-year period in my adolescence where like horror
movies were like, the only thing I had this a binder this
three-ring binder that I just kept I kept adding.
Like badly photocopied like black and white because that's
all I had because we had a black and white printer images from
the internet from horror movies. So there's just like I like drew
a lot and so I guess like that's that was the point was a weird.
I guess. I have like a collector's thing
where I just never actually went through this thing, but I just
kept adding to it. So is this compulsive?
Do you still have it? I'll be I'm sure it's somewhere.
I mean it would take I mean it's going to be in some box like
somewhere in my in my family's Home, I'd be curious to see how
much of your Primal narrative began their, you know act like
everyone makes the same movie or write the same book or paint the
same painting over and over and over again.
I think what it was to is that there were films that really
really affected me and scared me.
I was really impressed Nimble as a kid and there were a few
films. I just like I saw them too young
didn't know how to process them. Like I was clearly like, I mean,
I'm sure I made. Ian's like subconsciously that
like, you know like that then, you know, like enhanced
everything like Carrie really really depalma's film really
destroyed me. I wasn't able to watch it again
until like my 20s and and then I realized like it's like a really
sad comedy but right but it's no but as he for a kid, I mean,
it's it really like I could not get the image of Piper Laurie
like chasing Sissy Spacek around this like candlelit house like
out of my head. She's got this like horrible
smile. And she's you know holding a
knife and like that that just like has like come back to me.
And so many ways just like Still Still.
I'll have like a nightmare about that and that and that is sort
of like weird tone of that film that's like unrealistic almost
kind of unprofessional and exist and sentimental with the Pinot
DiMaggio school. Yeah, like 400 for it for a kid.
I can see that being like very disturbing especially because
it's like it's so dissonant with like the sort of Disney
Spielberg like thing that Is supposed to be yeah movie
viewing if you don't absolutely and it is it is that artifice
and that like there's like a romance to it.
That's really upsetting and then I talked about it this so much
on like the Press tour for hereditary that I like, you
know, kind of I don't want to talk about it again, but if
we're talking about things that affected us like Cook the Thief
His Wife and Her Lover saw that too young that like really
bothered me and like a deep deep way.
And remember there was a like a kid's cartoon 30 minutes long.
Long called the Snowman but like I don't know why that is I think
it's like a kick like a girl or a little boy that like get on a
snowman's like back and like fly through the world.
It's I can't remember even what the story was but I just
remember that it like bugged me. So I it's hard to tell I know
that there's something about like the Maudlin when combined
with something. I don't know like the modeling
the grotesque when they kind of meat as a kid.
I like couldn't process that. Yeah, and there's also just like
a mean-spirited The Nest to certain films that like really
bug me as a kid and then I kind of became obsessed with like
that tradition like I saw blue velvet and Like Clockwork Orange
when I was just very young and I hated them but then I like I
like being obsessed and I couldn't stop talking about it
and then they obviously became like, you know, some of my
favorite films I still like, you know blue velvet there's nothing
original about like loving blue velvet, but it is it is just
it's just a lot of the greatest thing ever like ever I mean, I
don't know if you had this experience but I certainly like
the things I hated when I first encountered them because they
felt kind of evil or just like like just off and those are the
things that kind of I kept returning to and they became
obsessions and Fascinations. And then I mean, I don't know
what I do in my own work because I'm like too close to it.
I my nose is like certainly like right up against this movie.
I have no objectivity, but I imagine that there's you know
that I'm I can see myself like kind of still.
Sling with what it is that fascinates me about narratives
like that. What about you?
I mean, I mean like just you know, like what what got to as a
kid like what and yeah, what what were your early influences?
Like what were the films that you like first like I assert I
certainly read a lot of scripts like as a teenager that like
were extremely derivative of like one or two things sure site
ranked wanted like wished that I had made like, I wonder if it's
other people's experience of like when you first start making
things like me, I think we're all we're All derivative in the
beginning and it was I remember seeing some Picasso exhibit in
my twenties being really happy to see that after his sort of
academic what we would call photo-realistic period that then
he was just painting like any other Impressionists before he
became I mean but better but it was just like what everyone else
is doing and then and then he became himself.
I actually even the which to me feels like derivative.
Like it's you know, like I feel like it wears his influences on
its sleeve much more than the lighthouse like I think you can
identify influences in the lighthouse for sure.
But I feel like it collectively it sort of I think I'm starting
to become myself a little more which hopefully I'll continue to
do but yeah, I mean whatever for Mary Poppins to like Conan the
Barbarian like in Ridley Scott's Legend, I don't know and Star
Wars and Indiana Jones and all that crap.
I think the the first movie that wasn't a movie that would be
easy to access that was very influential which I've also
talked about plenty is Nosferatu.
Yeah. I saw an image of Max Schreck in
a book about vampires and Elementary School library and at
that time especially in like real New Hampshire, like it
wasn't you couldn't just you know, whatever.
So we had to like go to the video store 45 minutes away and
order it and then wait for it to come in the mail and whatever
and I wore that VHS out but it's funny because as a kid I could
watch shit that I think is boring today just being
intrigued by what are adults up to like like like I do have a
fondness for Marks and Ivory films, but I definitely do.
Yeah, but like the bad like the boring ones like even as a kid,
like if my parents would be watching it should be like that
the bostonians like I wouldn't worry about it was going on but
you just but it was just like interesting to watch grown up
people doing weird things, but I don't know and and to bring it
back to life. I mean to Bergman like seven
seal. I watched Pretty Young and
certainly now like it seems like a crappy High School play a
little like not to be I mean that's going way too far, but
you know what? I mean?
No, it's definitely like it belongs to his like early period
like big test really literal like extremely like there's
there's like a broadness to it. But yeah that kind of you know,
but it brought us to the fall. So incredible, it's also
Caroline. It's so well-written but I mean
Max fun see those chainmail is like a sweater.
Silver it's like, you know, I'm but I know that the budget was
very low and and it certainly Works speaking of Lynch that
struck me the other day that like Robert this could not be
true. But that Robert Blake's mystery
man. Who's like one of the scariest
things in cinema to me like in Lost Highway like couldn't have
existed without death. Yeah.
I did that did that it was kind of struck me recently and again,
I could be wrong. So even the pale.
Yeah the pale face to face. And also but just like there is
a certain kind of Grimace that death makes the sort of taunting
fun sito's character that you know, Robert Blake and his just
Robert Blake Enos. Yeah, the stretched grimaces
just so scary way. What about what about I want to
ask you what is it that kind of like first Drew you to like
esoterica because clearly like you have this real fascination
with bygone eras and like I mean you you Of you clearly like a
person who loves creating worlds, but you also really love
like recreating worlds. Yeah, for some reason.
I was really always into costumes and I used to wear
costumes like to school. I used to ask for costumes for
Christmas presents. I don't know like where that
comes from, but I just I have that was something that was
always really interesting to me. And so then like books about
fashion history, like I know that I know that my grandmother
who died Died wouldwould did some costume design for like
Community Theater and like University ballet.
So she had some like books when I was like super little like for
and stuff that had that were like, lushly Illustrated that I
still have like one of them that I drew all over like it'd be
like someone's like, you know, it's just like a bust of
somebody and I would like Drew with markers their legs like
really shitty like, you know, what is like six for whatever
and then my grandfather collected Antiques and he knew a
lot about them and so that became A germ of something so
and then when we would go on like family trips to like like
Colonial Williamsburg and Plymouth Plantation things that
a lot of people thought they were boring.
I fucking loved it. You know, I was like, yeah, like
I want to be a blacksmith. This is great.
And I love talking to the living history nerds.
Like I thought it was the coolest thing and then there was
another this is like a sort of gross story, but my dad Dad
taught at the University of New Hampshire and there is a art
show by this Lafayette and immigrant Hyman Bloom and he was
like a New England painter who had this retrospective that was
like really amazing and he had all these like hellish imagery
of like demons and astral planes and stuff like these huge scale,
you know, and I thought it was and my dad met him and my
parents got along with he and his wife and he would come over.
And I was just enamored of this artist is because at the time I
wanted to be a visual artist and and he was like a very wizardly
person in my eye, but he was very gentle and I would talk to
them about comic books and Star Wars and stuff and he was like
down to hear it, but he gave me two books of one.
That was like only durrrr and one that was like Martin shown
Gower and other northern Renaissance people and he was
like if you if you can Draw this you can draw anything and I kind
of threw my comic books away like metaphorically anyway, and
I kind of abandoned being interested in pop culture
things. Mostly at that point.
Then I said, I would still kind of like occasional, you know, go
I was like obligatory really see the like Christopher Nolan
Batman movies like into my early 20s and eventually in there are
great for what they're you know and Nolan's it's just great.
Yeah. But you know, you know had the
taste of a fucking dilettante since it's a little kid.
I don't know what to say. It's kind of it's like saying
all that makes me want to vomit but is the case.
Yeah. No, I mean I've been to your
apartment. I don't think it's where you're
living now, but I saw your little you know, like punishment
room where you just feel like filled with books.
Like I definitely noticed a lot of like first editions in there
and it definitely felt like, you know the room that belonged to
somebody who like, you know has spent his life.
Life going into like used book stores looking for you know
out-of-print books, which I recognize because that you know,
I know I'm not that far away from being that person myself.
Well, that's why we get along buddy.
It's so Birdman like to work with the same crew and he liked
to work with the same like Troupe of actors, and I'm I
think I think many most filmmakers wish that they had
that that they That Core group of actors that they were working
with so closely to get these incredible performances and you
know and often like next step is to hit or miss pretty great.
Yeah, but Hannah and Her Sisters that that's pretty that's
incredible. I'm just saying but well, okay.
The only mrs. Are like when he's like chewing
the scenery and like Conan or Flash Gordon, right?
Obviously, that's what he needs to be doing.
But it's not the same work that he's doing with you kind of know
if he's in a Hollywood film like it's a go.
This guy has a supporting role. He's he's gonna be the bad guy,
right exactly. He did it.
He might have an accent so he's obviously going yeah, that's not
English. So so working on your second
film. How much were you able to bring
on crew from hereditary? How much did you want to talk
about that? Yeah.
Well, so pizzelle my DP and I have been working together since
grad school since we Since AFI and he's just one of my best
friends and we have a you know, this great shorthand and we just
like share the same taste and see things in a very like in the
same way and we argue like very, you know, very little very
infrequently and then and I would say like when there is a
misunderstanding like we take it like very badly like unset if if
it turns out that we thought we understood each other but like
we had different ideas like we get like upset and like need a
minute. He and I have this total
shorthand and you know, he's just I I love the guy and I'm
very grateful for that relationship in my life.
Not just professionally but he's also just like, you know a
beautiful person and then you know, I had a really incredible
time on hereditary with my production designer and costume
designer and was Gracie. And Olga milk, I've worked with
organelle by the way, unlike short films when I was like in
the dregs of the New York in the garbage pail.
Yeah, she's fantastic. I loved it.
And you know, the only reason that I didn't work with them on
Midsomer for instance is because Midsomer was a project that I
got started. I guess almost five years ago
and we had a Swedish production designer named Henrik Stenson
who was on from the beginning. He did an incredible job and he
and I kind of had this dialogue going for you know for years and
and he was building this like really I mean giant lookbook,
you know, and he'd send it to me and it was filled with you know
references and I would then like kind of like remove certain
references. They don't want working for me
and then I'd add my own and then that would provoke him to add
more and then he'd send it to me and then I'd add more and take
out some and I mean this thing like is like, you know 300
pages. Um, and that was really great
because once we dove into pre-production, we had no time
like we had to build this entire Village and just over two
months. It was it was really big and we
could have only done it in Hungary.
So he did an amazing job. I think I think he almost lost
his mind just from you know the pressure of it.
And so did I by the way, I mean like the water was always like
just up to my nose on on this film.
There were there were times on set that I had to just like walk
to a corner and like cry when I probably like shouldn't admit
but I like the recruit people who are probably like, you know,
who either like caught it and saw that like the director was
crying in the corner or that or I maybe looked like I was like
laughing maniacally either way. It's probably like a troubling
site. So that was a really great
collaboration and I'm really proud of his work and then we
worked with a Hungarian costume. Enter again because we needed
somebody local named Andrea flesh who is really are under a
flesh. I'm used to calling her Andrea,
but really really I mean brilliant woman like so so good
at what she does and I mean the reason I that I actually like
hired her and was kind of immediate was because she did
Peter greenaway is Tulsa Looper suitcases or the Tulsa Looper.
Yes, but like, you know a I think a couple like a couple of
them because I think there are I don't know how many volumes
there are and it's not necessarily a film that or a
video piece. I don't know what you'd call the
Tulsa Looper suitcase. I don't know.
Yeah, have you seen it?
It's but I've been reading about like all of his Antics.
It's like hilariously difficult. It's like a return to what he's
doing in the beginning with like the Falls, but like even more
inaccessible. Anyway, I know He's probably a
very big brutal person to work with and and so I was impressed
that she like made it through a green away a green away run and
and so she was incredible and you know, we did as much as we
could with the time and the budget like we definitely had
ideas for the costumes that like, you know, kind of just
like net. We're they were never actually
where they alter wishing like they certainly there's like Was
it all Scandinavian or is there some Slavic influence in the in
the clothing of the villagers? Yeah, I mean there was
definitely like Slavic influence and I also thought I like saw
like a like an embroidered Elizabethan coif.
Yeah. No, it's a stew like we I think
it's a I think it's a very successful like melange like it
comes together as something that looks like uniform and and its
own thing. But I was just yeah, we thought
I saw these. Oh no you Finally did there are
things that we pulled from, you know, like Russia from certainly
from Scandinavia in an unreal would be able to like explain
expounded much further. But you know, it was very
important to us that like every costume had like like different
runes Incorporated because like these costumes like belong to
these people and like and they they have adopted runes that
like represent them and and then beyond that we there was a
Swedish consultant on the film or martyr martyr. - Carlton
fists who I you know, it's just like the best guy ever and he
sort of invented this this language called the affect
language. That's the aspiration stuff.
Yeah. Well, yeah, it's like the
emotional sheet music right which is which is a combination
of like the runic alphabet and then like all of these emotional
hieroglyphs that you know are kind of made up but also drawn
from several sources and I mean even like every pair of shoes,
you know, Like has its own thing going on and yeah, we went as
far as we could in the time we had like to prepare and it's
very successful particularly the clothing for for me like, you
know, put the clothing particularly like really
belonged. Oh, well, thank you.
I'm really proud of her work. I mean she is just like such a
sweet person and her crew is like so great.
So yeah, I guess that's my kind of lung.
Ended Meandering answers to like, you know who like who I've
worked with on these last two films in those departments.
I mean in post-production, I've worked with Luke Johnson for
both films. He was the assistant nice guy
the nicest guy so smart. He was the assistant editor on
hereditary and I was working with Jen lame who's also just
one of my favorite people and you know at this point one of my
best friends, but I yeah, so I'm Jenn lame is like, you know, One
of my favorite people and she's actually now working on
Christopher Nolan's new film. So she's like she's moving fast,
but but Luke was so so was such a big part of editing.
I'm hereditary that we like we you know, we just gave him an
editor credit and then you know, I would have done Midsummer with
both hint him and Jen again, but Jen was busy.
Yeah, and so I just pulled on Luke and and and he's somebody
that I will keep working with as well.
Like he's definitely on the team at this point.
Awesome. How about you I had the great
Fortune to be able to work with virtually all my I mean are all
my keys all from from the which on the lighthouse the thing is,
I developed to larger Studio movies that like didn't happen.
And so And the lighthouse became an option and and we were
shooting in Canada again. It was very easy to get the gang
back and we had and also had an accelerated prep period and we
never could have built that world without working with Craig
Lathrop and Linda Muir again, because we have the right
language and the right working relationship already and it's
tacular work Jaron blaschke the DP we work together on all of my
short films that aren't embarrassing and I worked with
him as a production designer on other directors things and yeah
that shorthand and yada yada, but he's I mean, he's
incredible. He's an artist.
I don't use that word to describe very many people and
and also I mean and it's a real collaboration in the my films
are if and when they are praised For like the Cinematic language,
it's it would not be that way without Jerry and I'm not I
think you are like this, but I'm not like Scorsese sort of
dictating like this is every shot and like and so please
carry it out like it. We are working on trying to find
the most like essential simplest language for each scene and and
Louise Ford the editor also she I've been I've known her for
basically as long as Jaron and we have the same tight-knit
relationship and I must say that the edit and the color correct
were the only parts of making the lighthouse that weren't
fucking miserable and yeah credibly difficult and like same
for me same here like everything was so hard, you know at the
White House, but the edit was a joy not the loo and I didn't
have her work cut out for us, but it was like quite quite
Pleasant. Yeah, I'm with you on that and I
and and before we move on from that.
I also want to mention Lars Knudsen my producer who I met on
hereditary that was definitely you know, like I could not have
made it through this film without him and he and I just
started a production company and I really love the guy.
He's like, he's just a total enabler.
Yeah Lars Lars incredible. I work and you worked with him
which I going to working with him in the future.
I mean also, I mean the lighthouse If we're like going
this direction, which we should be RT features and new Regency
and a 24 gave me like incredible Freedom.
Yeah, I can't believe I made that movie.
It's kind of nuts. So thanks guys.
Yeah. No, I mean it feels a little
sycophantic talking about a 24 on the 824 podcast yesterday,
but they are incredible and I not that they're always perfect.
No, I mean do you yeah, it's gonna sell the the satanic
temple. Sorry, oh, okay.
Yeah do it. I know what you're talking
about. Yeah.
Yeah, so we didn't have any stars for the which they 24
family they need something special for marketing and they
wanted to have the satanic temple endorse the film and I
don't have anything against the satanic temple and like or their
political agenda or anything like that at all, but I didn't
want the movie indoors by satanic temple.
Like I wouldn't want it being endorsed by something that
called itself like, you know. no Christ Temple either and and I
have I mean, I'm very authentic tons of personal philosophical
like semi spiritual release it reasons for not wanting this and
and also I said, you know people are going to think I'm a fucking
Satanist not that there's anything wrong with that but but
they did it anyway, and I hope it helped but when I went to
scout a film that was not made in Poland the woman who was like
running the film office said we don't Robert Eggers coming to
Poland because he's a Satanist and did you not know this part
II didn't know that. Yeah, and so we had to spend
like a week like convincing them that I wasn't a Satanist before
I could go Scout in Poland. Wow.
Yeah. I think it's only fair that you
should be able to speak speak out about it now here on there
but yes, exactly. And so we'll see if they keep
this in the podcast that'll yes. You will see that's a but other
but really but they're very They're great.
They're collaborative know they're they're great and look
like when I left AFI in 2010, like there was nothing like
this. Like I didn't know how I was
going to make the film's I wanted to make because like I
didn't see the platform before it.
It was just like, you know, I wanted to make films that were
not like achievable for like, you know, like 1 million dollars
or like, you know, like a very very tight like, you know people
sitting in rooms talking like budget and the fact that I was
able to make hereditary as my first feature, Like a still I
find staggering and and I'm so grateful for it.
I recognize like how fortunate I was to be able to do it in that
way. And the reason I you know, it
took me 10 years to make a film and the reason I guess eight
years after after a five and you know, the reason for that is
because I was very stubborn. I did not want to do it.
It's very important. Yeah, it's very important and
I'm glad I did see you know, I'm glad I did wait, but yeah, man,
it's aii. III will say that that you know
a 24 going like wide with a film like the which are going wide
with with a film like Midsomer tickles me that it's happening.
Yeah, there are people who are going to walk into Midsummer
that like maybe would certainly Nick never watch it and I'm sure
they'll regret watching it but there are going to be there, you
know, what about the other hand? There's going to be some some
high school students who that's going to be there the first not
Like weird movie they seen and that's going to be amazing for
them. You know, you cut that like I
had to cut off email contact because of like creepy a cult
people unfortunately, but in the beginning I made myself
available and it was amazing to get emails like like from like
high school students who saw the Witch and didn't know you could
do something like that with movies.
Yeah, and that was super like super gratifying.
That's the other side of like the Like the D cinemascore?
Yeah, exactly. That's the other side people
walk out and they're like that wasn't scary that was you know,
like those boring and bullshit, you know?
Yeah, but but you're going to and God bless him.
Yeah. God bless.
I mean I met maybe it'll like stick with them for like, you
know another day or two and at least like kind of like bother
them. Yeah bothered and so finally
like sorry listeners. This is clearly my drum that I'm
beating. Like what if we can if we can
make it succinct like what about Bergman is so darn great.
I mean, I don't know like a better like writer certainly of
like monologues and dialogue for sure.
Somebody who like is able to just create the most like Vivid
interpersonal like Dynamics and in film and I think especially
like from like 1961 on I can't think of anybody whose work is
more devastating just as far as like character studies are are
concerned and you know, there's like an economy to his like
visual language that I mean, I mean, you know, you could put a
lot of that on his his collaboration with spend Nick
this but even like when he was making films with ganar Fisher
like it's there for sure now like and so I I mean if anything
it's like it's there in the seventh seal.
Yeah. No, absolutely it is.
Yep if sawdust and tinsel. I mean it's there from the
beginning. Yes, absolutely and and I would
say Out for me like that's a useful like tether to like hold
on to as a filmmaker is like, you know, these films are so
Artful. So beautiful like so impressive
on a technical level and they've so rarely like go beyond what's
necessary like he's able to be like, you know perfectly
indulgent and also to like just eschew the extraneous like and
and something that I find sorry it took as you have but it's
something that I find. So inspiring though, I'm
certainly not capable of it yet is that the indulgent shots like
aren't experienced as indulgent often.
Yeah, the opening of The Silence.
Yeah is one of the train it's so incredible how it shifts
perspectives and and and it's and it's quite complicated but
you don't you're unaware of it and I feel like when I watch
John Ford or or Hitchcock John Ford, I'm like, yeah, that's how
you that's where you should put it.
Good good, that's where you should put a camera.
Yeah and like Hitchcock. It's like that's who should put
a camera but that's a little surprised.
But Bergman it's always like like why are you having wow, he
put the camera there but that is the perfect place.
I would never think that that's exactly where you're supposed to
put it but that's the place. And again, it's unassuming.
It's not you're not like a assaulted by like The Panache of
the filmmaker and it feels instinctive.
It's so is addictive. Yeah, it feels totally
instinctive and I think there's something to be said also about
you know, I mean people love to like DFI these filmmakers and
you know say like they came up with this and like nobody had
done anything like this before but I think there's something to
be said about filmmakers being in dialogue with other
filmmakers and just as you mentioned that you know Bergman
and and Nick this to you know, watched tarkovsky's, you know,
early films and like we're just blown away and it changed their
way of making films and and Andrei rublev gets all the
credit for kitchen sink like medieval worlds, but like
obviously the Seven Samurai did that, you know, Way earlier,
absolutely and even with the silence you can see like oh,
when did the silence come out? Oh it came out a year after last
year at marienbad, you know, yeah for sure the film set in
this hotel that looks nothing like anything Bergen had done
before right and looks everything like what he did
afterwards. Yeah, you know, and I don't know
II know that for fair me my film school was just watching films I
loved and then like kind of digging in and to see what are
the Is that those filmmakers were watching saying yeah, but
what are the films that impacted those filmmakers and it's a
rabbit hole that just like never ends how much you re watch
movies a lot. I re-watched movies a lot to you
know, kind of like to the detriment of you know to the
exclusion of like, you know watching films for the first
time, right? And so no, I mean like I have
you I like I've ruined some films that I've studied and take
it so many notes that I can't like I've like there.
Yeah just enjoy has gone. Josh is right is gone.
Yeah, but then but but You know you kind of I think there's like
there was certainly a period where I was just like copying
and then you get to a point where you've done like enough
trial and error that like there's something in your system
and you kind of have like a foundation and then you can
William go off from there. Yeah.
You keep you right here like earlier watching so much stuff
in your like well, okay, like everything's an idea.
Yeah, you know what, you know what I mean, you're like you're
like well that was an idea that was an idea but like, you know,
that's not my script that's their scripts and so on.
I'm just we're just going to try to do it like all the it.
Like I think Beck remember back. Yeah had a quote that was
something to the effect of like no matter how much I try to like
shape one of my albums like all the time with as far as like
influences. I'm only left with what's inside
of myself. Yeah, you know, and and I think
as you become as you continue to become yourself more as someone
who creates work, Like that sense of self emerges more, you
know, and and so and so even if you're studying something for
staging or lighting or whatever like it becomes less of like I
need to do that and less of more like oh, yeah, like that's how
I'm thinking about like my own ideas.
I yeah, I I couldn't have said it better.
I'm going to I think I think I couldn't I'm being told that
it's time. To wrap it up great.
I could keep this going for a long time same here.
I it feels like we're just getting warmed up.
Well, you should come over soon. Hang out with the baby.
I'd love to I want to see Houston again.
Okay. Well this is this was great.
There's nobody I would have rather done this with same here,
and I'm so excited for people to see the lighthouse which I think
is a great film with a capital G.
Thanks man who and and seen its some are see it see you in a
second and a third and a fourth time and Notes destroy it yeah,
take it down. All right, great for you know, I
mean destroy it for the better if you know for your film
students for to better your own filmmaking not right not saying
like take down our he's movie. It's looking great.
But you know, hey, like, you know, it's a free country.