Hey, it's a 24 and this is the a24 podcast for this episode.
We bring you a conversation between two Visionary
filmmakers, Paul Schrader and Sofia Coppola pollen.
Sofia have much in common as writer directors, who've built
careers entirely outside the studio system.
Each making movies only they could make.
We were excited to bring them together to talk about Paul's
new movie, first reformed, and what it's like to be a filmmaker
today a warning. If you haven't seen first
reformed, you want to skip ahead, exactly?
Two minutes when Sofia asked Paul about the movies ending,
here's Paul Schrader and Sofia Coppola.
All right. Now, Sophia are then.
Paul Schrader. I'm Sofia Coppola and we met.
I think I've met you as a kid. I remember, yeah, I hear half
time. I met you.
You were about half as tall as you are, but I remember you
coming, too. I met you at a lunch in the, in
my adult life because I remember asking you about American Gigolo
and you told me that John Travolta was originally supposed
to play the part and I Movie. So, I was excited to ask you
about that but we so yes. But I know you more from growing
up as a peer of my father. Wow, a little younger.
Yeah. But and Mishima yeah Francis and
George produced based model. We did the post up there in San
Francisco and of course I have all those ties with Tom Letty.
So that effect I was just back up there so a lot of interesting
things to talk about. I think the most interesting is
how does one get a Movie scene today.
Yes, I was happy to hear that that at 8:24 there were saying
that your movie your new movie is doing so well.
People going to see it and I'm always curious about and I love
the theater experience of going. Well this is what I found around
ten or twelve independent films a year, rise above the crowd and
I've noticed by the general public and this is out of
possibly fifteen thousand or more and I know How do you get
to be one of those channels? Very big question.
And I've started to realize that in the current Marketplace, so
which of course, changes every year is that first, you have to
pass through the gate Keepers, which are the festivals.
And then, the next stage is running the gauntlet.
And when I finally first reformed, is we passed The
Gatekeepers that have Telluride Toronto, New York, and a 24
bought us out of Toronto. And then there was a whole
period of special screenings screenings are groups like I did
a lecture tour various seminaries, small festivals
overseas festivals. It's a full-time job and then in
March, David Frankel who you're just talking to called me into a
meeting in this room. He said, it's an that they were
going to change the release pattern and they're going to
change the dates, change the theaters.
And we're talking about the campaign and he obviously saw
That I look very concerned and he said no Palmer's and this is
good news. This is a good news meeting but
my point being it was almost six months after they bought the
field until they had run it through enough.
Gauntlets figure out what they're going to release it or
how much push their group behind it.
Yeah. Now just because you make a
movie just because someone buys a movie don't mean anybody is
ever going to see it. Yes.
I know I thought that yeah of course.
The last time I made a movie last year, half of the effort
and work is the year of just trying to get it out there and
get people to see it. So it's always a mystery and a
struggle particular. If you get caught award season
like relative where, you know, it's from Labor Day to April's.
Yeah. It's a full-time but that's
exciting when movies. Yeah break out because you're
right. It's so we're yeah I mean and
there's almost no way you know you can predict You can do
certain things but, you know, if a movie hits the Zeitgeist, it's
just luck. You know, we hit the side guys
with Taxi Driver, all those years ago, what degree of
calculation was there not to my knowledge, it just happened.
Yeah, just happens again. Now, it seems like there's a lot
more behind it, and it's all kind of campaigning and that
didn't exist. Yeah, you were asking me a
minute ago, your friend. She was entertaining, my friend
Tamara Jenkins was editing at Post Factory and she said, she
met you there when you were working on First Reform and that
you were also editing a movie with my cousin.
Nicholas Cage. Yes.
Well, what happened was about six years ago?
Carlos had a terrible situation happen and they they tried to
killed her. At least, that's how it felt to
me. They took my film away and Nick
and I and other people disowned it and they dumped it.
And, you know, I sort of descended into Despair and
Batman. Holiday.
And I thought, well, this is how my career's going to end with a
fiasco. You know.
This is this would be my, the enduring taste in my mouth and I
was the phone, I was called dying of the light.
So then I still in touch with Nick and I said, Nick, you know,
we should work together again and get it right.
Get this stain off our clothes, meaning primarily my clothes.
I think he's terrible feeling and so then, I came along that I
You'll be good for Doggy Dogg and I said to the people, I
think I can get me cage for this, but you have to give me
Final Cut because I wrote it without.
Well, God, after what happened last time.
So they look at you can have wonderful.
I can't believe that you wouldn't always be able to, I
never felt I needed it before. I mean, yeah, in the 70s and
80s. You're always dealing with
moving people. People were like movies people.
Ya know, you would disagree, sometimes movie, would get
better or worse. But But it was a movie people.
Yeah. Now the whole group of a built
in the film business, who not only don't go to movies, they
don't even like them much. Yeah.
And and so, how do you deal with these people?
And then then also found a couple that actually means
something. So, we met I made this kind of
film with neck and Willem Dafoe dog-eat-dog, my sort of
Tarantino film, and it was just really outrageous felt that sort
of brought me back to life and then, I don't think about what
can I do now that I have this Final Cut thing, but we have
always been afraid to make, so that's spiritual Phil, you know?
Because of the economics will never write, you know, it was
always a financially irresponsible them to make.
And that somebody would try to take it away from your, at some
point. I said, but now we can get the
budgets down low enough. So that's responsible, I'm not
use my final cut. To do nothing, you know, before
I use it to be outrageous. Now I can use it to be quiet.
Yeah, and so that's how that came about well at the state.
So I went to that editor, I use on Doggy Dogg because while I
was editing that I realized what I was doing wrong with trying to
live life, I realized that. I needed to be much more
aggressive with the entertainment.
And this editor. Ben Rodriguez is a student of
Hank or words who did Natural Born Killers.
So in that school, And he was and he edited first performed.
Yeah, and I said to him, you had a dog eat dog.
I said to her, I'm gonna hire you for first before.
I don't need you for first Fort. It's very simple job but we'll
get through it to the power 7 weeks.
Then I want you to re-edit an entire life which I don't own
legally. We'll just edit it without
permission. So we were editing both
simultaneously one, that's very, very quiet film.
And one this completely gone and of him and of course I do.
Don't own it. So I little walk around, I put
it in my archive, at UCLA film and Harry Ransom in Austin, and
here at MoMA. So if you, you know, call them
up. If we can see the new version or
you can go to YouTube and just type in Schrader Rotterdam, and
then you will see an hour-and-a-half lecture.
I did about the whole process with around 25 minutes of clips
of the old version versus the new version.
How I had done that, we try to get a re-release, I don't own in
there. Also, I offered to do all of
this for free. Yeah.
And I was turned out because there's a lot of bad feelings.
Now, that's terrible and somebody with that felt.
So now I find myself in the opposite position which was
after Diana, right? I said, this is how it's going
to end. Now I'm after for formed, I'm in
the position of saying Well, this is how it should it, which
is almost as intimidating. Yeah.
You know, you start thinking. Well, you know, if this is my
last know, did you really approach it as your last film
know you are every project? You have to think?
No, not really, I mean, but after a certain age, you know,
you see often Tom Petty's, did it?
Tom Petty plan to make that last album, you know?
But this is a movie that you've always wanted to make the movie.
I subject matter that you've always wanted.
The movie. I always didn't want to make but
did you grow up with religion? Yes, I'm a product of that,
question from church. So that would be what's a
Christian when I was Christian. Hi Calvin.
And before I got involved in filmmaking, I wrote a book of
theological Aesthetics, you called transcendental style and
fit and it was about 02 and bracelet and dryer.
How did you learn about 0zu? I learned about Odin from Don
Richie human. What happened was?
I had to steal logic. Education.
And then I had this love of the movies and all said I started
seeing in specific films, a bridge between my sacred path to
my profane present but it wasn't a bridge of content was a
British style and soon as I made that Revelation I said you know,
you can connect these things. Stylistically content is
becoming a material, so I wrote that book about it and I was
published in 72 and I've Rewritten it Bring it up to date
and that's coming out in two days, people try to connect my
films with that book. And I said, don't know, that's
not me. I like those films.
I've written about those films, but I myself, too intoxicated
with sex and violence action and empathy.
You know, these are not elements in the transcendental toolkit,
you know, you will never catch me, you know, on that, then
brace only and ice. It's I'm not going to go out
there. I'm going to fall in the fall
in. If I go out there and that's the
way it was for decades. And then three years ago, I was
giving, pavelka, bulowski the National Society of film critics
award for Eda. So when we were talking about
spirituality and movies and talk about my book, talking about the
new economics of film, and I walked up town and I said, you
know, we're going to be Next year.
It's time now. It's time to write that movie.
Do some, who are you? Not right scariest.
And once I see I made a decision to cross that bridge became
relatively easy and I won't one of the things that had always
been holding me back. Was the feeling that I would
walk into spiritual Arena and fail?
Then the that to me, seems like the worst of Both Worlds.
Yeah, I'd rather fail the secular Arena.
But I'm always like I said, okay, you know you're 75, got
Final Cut, if you are not going to do it now, you're never going
to do it. Yeah but yeah it was good to do
something scary but I feel like and but there's a similarity in
that character obviously to Travis Bickle.
Were you thinking about similar? Yeah yeah I mean what happened
was is in March of 1969. I was a Critic for the Allied
free press the 1, key to Los Feliz, theater, the lovely
theater, some pickpocket in that 75-minute movie to think.
Kevin one is, I realized that there was a contact between
spirituality and Cinema and of the contact of style and out of
that came the book. The other thing I saw, Was this
kid in this room writing in a journal, going out committing
some crimes, writing some Journal, some more.
And I was living at the time with a group of UCLA film
students, who are making a biker film for Roger, Corman called
naked angels. And I, and I was a film student
and not a filmmaking student. And I thought what they were
doing was just so d-class a, i He's very elitist and, you know,
after we the film critic Community will tell you, when
you make a good physicist, and I'm sure they thought the same
way and then I saw that film. I said, wow, I can make a film
like that, you know, the maybe there is a place for me in this
in this trashy business, you know, I could make that film.
And then three years later, I wrote Taxi Driver, which is that
film, you know, dining room with his with a journal goes out.
At them and moving on, some kind of personal Arc.
And so now, 50 years afterward those two seats which, which
dropped into the petri dish, at that site warning, there's a
connection and finally connected again this film performed where
you have that style and that character coming around right
now. I've used that character a
number of times. No.
When he was Young. He was lonely in the taxi driver
and then he was narcissistic and of gigolo and then he was
anxious and a drug dealer like sleeper, then he was superficial
and Society Walker. And now he's finally Minister
and he suffers from despair. So, they're all the same Parts,
different sides of your son is a progression through life.
Yeah, you know, and Every time you sort of come to the North in
possession, that characters or swings around again, I don't
know if you need, see you in a different and yeah I don't know.
What do you have a similar character?
You say well you know it's time I take a look at her again.
Yeah. Yeah.
I've always wondered, usually, when I'm starting to write.
I don't know why I'm drawn to it and then afterwards, I start to
see the connection. When, when you start did you say
it's time to revisit that character or he kind of creeps
up on you? Well, here's how it happened
with likely but it's interesting.
I was worried over and I want to do a midlife will be and and I
also thought about this for almost a year Lord through all
the cliches and college professor and Guy quits her job
becomes an adventure. So I could not come up with a
decent bit like metaphor and then I was asleep and you don't
dream. About 5:00 a.m. like a character
came to me and he was a drug dealer That I Used to Know.
Name is John. It came, right?
Smack up to my face and I woke up in a start.
Wow, that was Vivid. Well, I haven't thought about
him in a year and I said, what are we talking about?
And I thought, oh, he was asking me about the movies and then I
realized this is my guy I couldn't find him.
So, He found me. I got up right there, in their
start making notes. Track them down, they're very
same day. He and his boys, he ended up
being played by Willem Dafoe with Boss by Susan Sarandon.
And it was the same Taxi Driver guy, the guy with the journal,
the guy, only an hour, his in the back seat of the car, with
envelopes of drugs, rather than the front seat of the car, it
was so interesting. And now, here he is, again, in a
different stage of his life and and deal with What's happening?
Yeah. So it takes amount of living to
return. You can't do a Woody Allen with
those kind of characters. You can't write about a member
here. Yeah.
I can't imagine.
Well, that's interesting. And and did you have Ethan Hawke
in mind? Or did you find him after?
No, I mean, you know, normally I do you think of actors when
you're writing, I try not to do you.
I do because it helps me that picture certain.
I think it's just the opposite. So if you're sitting there
typing or writing a speech. Yeah.
Now, you hear Denzel Washington. Say, it's a graph.
That's a great speech. No, it's not a great speech.
At least stay with me and so so I'd try it all cost not to think
of an actor. It's because it is cheating and
cheating and but about halfway through this.
Now there is a certain physiognomy of Suffering man of
the cloth, they'll hardly do and Country priest or gummy cliff
and I confess. So you start thinking about
actors who fit that bill and Jake Gyllenhaal, Oscar, Isaac
and Ethan and Ethan was 10 years older than the other two and he
was just starting to get some very interesting wrinkles on his
face. You know, the, some of those
guys. It takes a long time for the
Boyhood to go away, right? Like Griffin, Dunne was like 20
Five for 30 years. Yeah and so Ethan has all the
sudden now becoming much more interested in that way and and I
always thought he would be very good as an internalized back
here. Yeah.
I've never seen him. Yeah, his personality is kind
of, he has a kind of goofy personality that is the sort of
post hippie kind of attitude toward things.
And so the first time I met them, I said, you know, this is
a Leanback performance. You know, whenever you detect
the viewer getting interested startling away, you know, don't
give it. Don't do enough.
See how far you can get away from them?
Yeah, I know it felt it felt very like we were having to lean
forward to try to and that's sort of what it is with these.
Spiritual kind of things, you can't really.
Push anybody into the mystery only you can do is learn and
guide them but those steps they take they are.
Yeah they have to take you can't play us spiritual music or have
a spiritual plot. Jamaican people say?
Oh, I Paul God. Ya know, when you, when you
decide to touch the mystery, it's because you've been put in
a kind of a tight spot by the artist.
And one of the ways you can go is to jump forward and that's
what that whole notion of transcendental Style with about
how do you style is simply the corner of viewer so that you
trapped and want to jump forward?
Jump into the mystery. Yeah.
It was uncomfortable State watching it but you can't look
away. And it's an interesting State
that's unusual and he's I think. Yeah.
And and going back to Taxi driver and something I learned
are two devices. One of the narration, which I've
always loved particularly what it's written, has to be written
for it. And, and I regarded as
intravenous feeding, I'm going to put a tube in your arm and
I'm going to start, giving you your judgment, you won't be able
to taste it, and you won't be able to feel it, but it starts
going to fill up your body. Be it starts to take effect.
Yeah and that one thing I'm going to do.
The other thing I'm going to do is tell you a story from only
one point of view monocular story.
So you're seeing this one character, go about his days,
only you stay with him the whole time, you don't ever see
anything without whether it's, You Know, Travis be colder
weather, and this guy so. So after about 45 minutes, I'm
hearing this guy talk and seeing only what he sees you are now
identified with him. How can you not?
You know, if you're still in that fear, you are identified.
It starts to go off the rails, just a little bit, then a little
bit further and then a little bit further, I'll tell you come
to the position where you are still identifying with someone
but you no longer think he's worthy of your identification.
And that the crunch that that's a little crevice.
You can lay down someone's skull and it'll cause them not and who
knows what the viewers going to do at that point because you
can't predict that. But, you know, that you put the
viewer in a very uncomfortable place to they're going to react
somehow. Yeah.
You don't see it coming, or you
start to see close it. And then before, you know, it,
you've gone farther than you expected to integrate wind at
that happen. Yeah.
And I'm surprised how violent it is for such a sparse.
Well, there is no violence for saves obviously, anticipation of
violence. Yeah, but there's like the ones
in the woods like it's very the shock.
There's a chugging, it's not. Yeah.
But there again, you know, when you with whole thing, Of people,
and that's right. And let's take the case of
music, right? So now you're you see a scene at
a kid's line in the snow with his head, half blown off and
there's no music. And part of you, as a viewer
said, come on, play some music. Tell me how I'm supposed to
feel, you know, he won the to tell you how to feel, but it
leads you to my God. And so that is another way to
create unease, is no. But I want to ask so you said
you're writing. Now I am kind of procrastinating
and avoiding writing but yes I have it hasn't been started a
couple years ago that I put away now.
I took it out to try to come back to it.
Have you ever done that where you abandoned something came
back to it or act? Yeah, I wanted to do a film 20
years ago with Arnold Schwarzenegger remake of a, but
that occur Western. And then he decided to run,
Governor and I never got the rights but now I'm making the
rice back now so still interests you.
Well, that's 20. 20 years old, it needs to.
Now it needs to be updated. Yeah.
All I know for sure right now is I've got to do something
completely different and you know, people have come up to me
after the film and said, what are you going to make another
feel like that? I said I don't know if I ever
will. After every film, do you go
through that period of Of searching.
I said that you and I have this in common, which is part of the
fun of making filters. Seeing if you can do something.
Yeah, I've never done this before.
You know, I did a little Kickstarter movie with Bret
Easton Ellis part of the fun of it.
We did Lindsay Lohan, a porn star.
Yeah, part of part was. Can we do this?
Brett? Yeah.
Can we actually pull this off? But is that is half the fun of
it or you can I make a Tarantino movie are?
No. Can I do this kind of setting up
a challenge for you? Because so often I go to a movie
theater, look up at the screen like that, you know?
How do they stay? Awake?
Yeah. Well, these people have made
this movie ten times now. Yeah.
Oh, yeah. I know.
It's so it's so great. When you see something, you
haven't seen a million. But so, how did you start with?
I know you decided to face the fear of doing something in this
subject matter. But then did the character just
come to you? And well, and it feels so much
about current. Yeah, well, this data and you
know that character I've written about before and and first thing
I do is re watching the films of the silk that I thought it had
worked that were effective and just you know, checking to the
landscape and watching about two dozen films and you can you
church and and you start slow set them on their you start
picking up things you know, and a lot of what we do is, you
know, simply theft. Yeah, assemblage, you know?
And so and the secret of our feelings is, then you have to
steal around my dad or grandfather.
We said steal from the best but but you can't keep going back to
the same that you can't keep going back to the same 7-Eleven.
They're Gonna Catch You right? Right.
So you can go to the bath, but you can't be the same about.
So you go to, you know, go over the floral shop.
I can mix them. Then you go over to that little
hot dog, stand that nobody goes to and then you put them
together and that's all any of us ever do.
Ya know? It's true.
I was talking to my dad about the conversation and he said oh
I just I saw blow up but I wanted to make a blow-up and I
had no idea. It was like and then the
promised our conversation anyway.
So then you I'm curious about your writing You, okay?
There's like can write better at night than during the day.
Do you have any rituals? All right, I am Vengeance
writer. I don't consider myself a real
writer. I think a real writer writes
every day, but I don't know. I've heard, I can't do that
either. So I miss you feel better.
You just sit down until the idea is done and I used to be a
Knight Rider. And but that was always fueled
by nighttime additives. Um, you know, the caffeine and
nicotine addict, okay? And the alcohol.
And then I had children took almost a year to learn to write
during the day. I'm so glad because I'm
struggling with this and and no one ever talks about it.
Yeah. And you know, I used to start
right about 10:30 11:00, right? 2005 and boy, it was just buzz
along, but rather lie and I started doing more drugs and
making left pages. At the beginning, there wasn't
many drugs but there's like 15 pages and then there was a lot
of bumps and those last two pages in your written and you
say, oh am I writing it? And I think you'd like to write
or I'm pretending to write in order to justify any drugs.
I never thought about that. So then I went on the day shift
and that took a while and I'm still on the day shift.
Well, how many pages? Can do in a good day for
average. Well, I can't read very fast the
way I do that is I outline and tell the story.
So you know where you're going by, that the whole story, you
know what the end date? Do you know what I can tell you?
What will happen on page? 55 and a half before before I
start to write because it's all in my out.
Okay. I never do an outline.
I've done this and I use the outline to make an oral
presentation. I tell the story and every time
I tell the story I redo the outline that doubles, don't
worry do the only one at some point.
You start putting in projected page counts, you know.
So don't you have a feeling of what page you're on when this,
when this part of the story kicks in and you do that?
And I've, if you can tell somebody a story for 15 minutes,
45 minutes then listen you've got to move. and what happens if
you tell story or not, why don't you think happens when you Tire
of it and it dies on you? And that's a good day that
you've saved yourself from writing, something that was
going to die, anyway, or the other things sometimes to
happen, which it says I'm sick of being told, you know, don't
tell me one more time, right me, is it time now?
Right? And and then the writing comes,
you know, quite quickly and and occasionally A, I have stumbled
into this process where I had two thirds of the story, but not
the last third and I thought it would come.
Yeah. And didn't because I was fuck,
I'm rushing to get the end of that.
That's interesting. And and would you say this is a
happy ending this? That's too simple.
But what do you think? I don't want it.
I don't want to give away anything.
Well, you know, I wasn't sure and I think it's mixed.
That's what I think that's more interesting.
Then. Yeah, you do want to have one of
the other, of course, it's mixed emotions.
I don't know. I don't know what the ending is.
Yeah, it's done 30 going to be okay.
It can be read in what either one of two ways.
Well, one of the sir Miracle has occurred in his life spared.
The other is, Equally my chant optimistic which is he drinks
the drain hole and he's on all fours, and he's throwing up his
stomach, he's imagining and guard comes over to him.
Let's not talk to him for the whole movie and says rev told
you want to know what heaven looks like.
Here it is. This is exactly what it looks
like. It looks like one long kiss and
that's the last thing he sees He's yeah I took it as it was.
Yeah I wasn't sure whether it was real or not so I wondered if
you. Yeah.
And then decided yeah, we were tweaking it in the editing, you
know, when people see it trying to get trying to make it like
having a half. So whenever I showed it I would
say is the alive or dead when it was trying to get the Bucks, a
monaghan's to go up for both, all right.
But do you? I don't want to even be
shouldn't say it on our podcast, but Should do you have an idea
of which side that's more honor are, you know, the ways know
whenever people thought more people thought it was one way I
shift the editing, so it's the other way.
So that so that I didn't know. Right, right.
Okay. And because a number of people
have interpreted the ending of Taxi Driver as a fantasy piece
and I don't have a problem with that and it, but it's not what I
intended. And so this time, I actually
can't end bad. It's now, are you traveling
around with the film? And yeah, I've been on tour.
I think just coming down to the end of it and I decided, you
know, just to take this Victory lap, but none for that, but not
a Victory. Lap is coming to an end and time
to get back to basics. I have to face a blank page.
Yeah. Do you find it?
I mean, no. It's nice when people are
interested in your work, but do you find it annoying to have to
explain? What?
You're what you were trying to do, instead of just having
people watch it? Well, if you've hidden enough
nuggets in there, you some are talking about.
Yeah, sort of say, by the way, you notice open up that door,
you know. And so, you know, there are
things in the film later. That very few people know this,
but when you call their attention to it, it's actually
more interest and were you thinking about making something
to respond to the state of things now, or that just kind of
seep in when, you know, it's kind of hard not to all right,
you know? I mean, for thousands of years
human beings have been having a hypothetical discussion.
You know, why are we here? And what will become of us.
And now for the first time that discussion is steaming not so
hypothetical. Right?
And you know, the possibility that the species has now
constituted will not see, the end of the citria.
That's a, that's a lot of Gravitas.
Yes. But was that in your in your
mind when you were starting out with this character or he kind
of well, I knew that the but have to be about You have the
sickness unto death. Is what he regarded Holland,
which is despair that. I'm so he's in religious Despair
and but that despair is somewhat selfish and it is forbidden by
the church has suicide and saying us st.
Augustine said, you know, suicide a sin.
However he said, unless your Samson, And then it's
Resurrection because your martyr so you can see this guy and he's
very very tempted by despair going to suicide and then he
catches this virus whereby he sees himself becoming a martyr
and now that that's really sick too, but it's very interesting.
Yeah, yeah. Didn't think about how many ways
you can approach that? And to you and if I'm here, do
you know what? This will lead you to next or do
you take the time to play around with three things?
I wanted to complete style piece and another is Contemporary
Western and another is the scariest what which is about my
brother. They always have to do the scary
just to us. I don't know.
You know it, I wrote a film about my father, I wrote a film
about my mother and I think they're two of the weakest films
I did because there was not enough metaphorical distance
between me and the subject, you know, whereas if I can make them
attack you driver or Gigolo there, I got enough distance So
they were directly their stories.
Yeah, it's fun. Well, our car was about my dad
and light of day was about my mom, but you've, but it was to
directly well. Yeah, because they were
characters your father. And now the idea I'm writing
about my brother's about brother and I keep thinking, maybe like,
am I too close? I might have closed.
So, and I came to this idea because my brother died about 10
years ago and His widow was dying and she was a hoarder.
So we had that clean out her house, she clapped her kept
everything and I went through like a hundred 450 boxes and I
found what I was looking for because I never saved stuff.
You know I've thrown my life out the window like a greasy rather
but my brother safe stuff and from 1966 to 1970 I wrote him
every other week. I wrote him everything.
I've been movie, I saw coming to UCLA going to film school
meeting. Pauline kael, our know, and he
had others letters, and now become common is going to print
them, you know what a day for a while, but I was just thrown
back into that and so that I cursed God coming up with an
idea. But I stopped after 40 pages and
because I was just getting too close to it and it wasn't good
enough, I can feel it getting that thinning out.
So what I'm going to do now is back up and start at the
beginning again, maybe they're not progress, I'm not sure.
You know remainder is that had it takes me that without it
being so direct. Well yeah I'll keep it from
being maybe I need to Put an external event in there.
Gives rather just family family family.
No, I may be there has to be not only side danger or mysterious
death of some sort of this good warning for me to keep in mind
because you always everyone's always drawn to writing about
their family so to make sure not to fall in the Trap of yeah to
close. Yeah.
Although I did like that film, they did here at 8:24.
Did you see that film krisha? Oh yes.
Now that's all those actual family.
That was incredible. Yeah, I mean that's what I was
just thinking and that was the main character was like, was she
the aunt of the filmmaker? Yeah.
They would never ever all family with a handful of exceptions
that was actual Family Feud. Yeah.
And yeah, that was really fascinating to watch.
Yeah, I found it a movie that I just couldn't imagine being able
to do, you know. Yeah, I'm just looking at
Filmography and you know you because you're from a different
generation, it's all this stuff gets mixed in, you know, the
music and they the little bit, you know, I'm pretty much
straight from the screen right now, generation and then to
directly generation and I haven't veered from that but I I
see all the Temptation you because you did an operon.
Oh yeah, I did but just because I was asked to and I felt like I
couldn't Say no because it was terrifying, but it was in the
Live Theater, which I've never done.
Yeah, I was asked to I was there.
Yeah, I did I didn't want to, but I'm glad I did because I
felt like it was scary. I learn something.
But um, but are you a musician? No, I've always liked music, and
they're a lot of musicians in my family, my father's father, and
uncle or conductors, and composer.
So, so my dad's Uncle knew that new LED fog.
Very well and explain it to me and I just did it to do
something scary and challenge myself but I wonder what you
have such a strong visual style, obviously our director.
But from a writer I just think of like the way the first two
films I just Illustrated it was until a third film.
Which where was the American Gigolo?
And now the third one it has such a great style that was
because of this guy scarfiotti Nando.
Brought over from Bertolucci. He had done conformist and last
course, we have two sets everything in the look at it.
So and I just, I just put myself really at his feet, but you knew
you need another thing to combine that and I I needed a
master mentor and and I had seen conformist and I heard that he
and Bertolucci were having a little bit of a falling out.
Out over, No Agenda. So I went over there and invited
him to come to the u.s. and, and we did those two films together
and became very, very good friends and reach 80.
He, he gave me eyes to people right around that same period
and Charles Eames and scarfiotti because I was raised Charles E.
Yeah. And I, I was raised in a church
environment where if you had something to say, use words
ourselves, you don't use images. Yeah.
Churches are just four White Walls, right?
And and that's privileged. And so I always thought ideas
were worked. And to me a while to learn that
images are also ideas. And he was, I was doing an
article about of critical, generic one, Charles And I
started hanging out at 301 Washington.
And then my wife at the time, got a job there aren't, she
became one of his designers and and that was the first time.
This whole notion of images are ideas.
I just hadn't thought of that. Wow, that's so interesting that
that's where you were introduced to that.
Yeah, sure. This is a bad idea.
This is not a white coffee cup. This is an idea and then did
those phones and Nando and And then it was his idea is not
exactly what I was thinking about Los Angeles.
I want D, Los Angeles, Los Angeles.
So I got, you know, I went to the Axis powers and went to
Germany and Italy. Yeah, gospel music from Germany
and look for how did you think to get Giorgio moroder?
Such a good combination? Yeah, with the I'm not quite
sure how. But I mean I was very interested
in that but that sounds on interested in him and I was
interested in. German shells are yeah.
And what's the other one? Trans-europe Express Kraftwerk
traffic. Yes.
So that was all in the air about at that time, you're at school
and was the story, an original story or was it based on
something and had it? I know I should have gone on my
mind, but I just love that movie so much and Lauren Hutton she'd
active. Yeah, sure one done.
One thing before. Did you just know her from
around actually into mangers? One-woman show?
That that Miller did on Broadway.
She tells the story that we're better as soon as I met someone,
if I never saw the show, but did and so, she tells the story
about how he has a dinner party at her house.
Upsets me next to Lauren Hutton. That's how it.
I love knowing that thank you. So you have a title for your
thing yet. Is that bad?
No, I do but I don't know if I'll ever get my script
together. Yeah, I know the feeling you
live here. I do.
I live in the West Village about Morton near Hudson.
No, I was just there. I was just there.
Like I was at ten Hudson. Morning.
Oh, really? What?
And where are you? I have a place of Chelsea but
mostly I'm up in Putnam Valley. Okay, how about lake house?
Do you have a country Health? We still go.
Visit my family in Napa I know it's not that close but you
know, I don't know. The first time I was at
Skywalker. This was way back then and
George that they were handful of buildings there.
You know and George had this big bull I don't know if you ever
saw it is book of drawings, okay?
And it was a history of Lucas Valley.
The very first people who came to look at Sally.
The first shots that were built the first permanent building,
that was built. And just going through all the
years, history of Lucas Valley. And I said, wow, that's really
great. I've talked a lot of you
afterward. And I said, did he ever show you
the book Tom said? He made up the book.
None of it is true. Really?
There was never, anybody looking fairly he invented the whole he
bought the valley and then invented the history for us.
I never heard that. Well, thank you Sophia.
Thank you luck, and thank you. Thank you.
I appreciate all the writing insights and excited for your
vehicle and I think your world is ready for another Sofia
Coppola film. Oh, thank you.
Do it. Thanks so much for listening.
Look out for episode 5 next month.
The a24 podcast is produced by us a 24, special.
Thanks to Doug and Aaron a robot repair who composed our theme
The a24 podcast is produced by us a 24, special.
Thanks to Doug and Aaron a robot repair who composed our theme