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Hey, it's a 24 and this is the 
a24 podcast for this episode. 

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We bring you a conversation 
between two Visionary 

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filmmakers, Paul Schrader and 
Sofia Coppola pollen. 

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Sofia have much in common as 
writer directors, who've built 

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careers entirely outside the 
studio system. 

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Each making movies only they 
could make. 

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We were excited to bring them 
together to talk about Paul's 

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new movie, first reformed, and 
what it's like to be a filmmaker

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today a warning. 
If you haven't seen first 

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reformed, you want to skip 
ahead, exactly? 

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Two minutes when Sofia asked 
Paul about the movies ending, 

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here's Paul Schrader and Sofia 
Coppola. 

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All right. 
Now, Sophia are then. 

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Paul Schrader. 
I'm Sofia Coppola and we met. 

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I think I've met you as a kid. 
I remember, yeah, I hear half 

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time. 
I met you. 

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You were about half as tall as 
you are, but I remember you 

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coming, too. 
I met you at a lunch in the, in 

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my adult life because I remember
asking you about American Gigolo

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and you told me that John 
Travolta was originally supposed

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to play the part and I Movie. 
So, I was excited to ask you 

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about that but we so yes. 
But I know you more from growing

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up as a peer of my father. 
Wow, a little younger. 

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Yeah. 
But and Mishima yeah Francis and

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George produced based model. 
We did the post up there in San 

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Francisco and of course I have 
all those ties with Tom Letty. 

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So that effect I was just back 
up there so a lot of interesting

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things to talk about. 
I think the most interesting is 

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how does one get a Movie scene 
today. 

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Yes, I was happy to hear that 
that at 8:24 there were saying 

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that your movie your new movie 
is doing so well. 

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People going to see it and I'm 
always curious about and I love 

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the theater experience of going.
Well this is what I found around

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ten or twelve independent films 
a year, rise above the crowd and

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I've noticed by the general 
public and this is out of 

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possibly fifteen thousand or 
more and I know How do you get 

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to be one of those channels? 
Very big question. 

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And I've started to realize that
in the current Marketplace, so 

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which of course, changes every 
year is that first, you have to 

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pass through the gate Keepers, 
which are the festivals. 

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And then, the next stage is 
running the gauntlet. 

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And when I finally first 
reformed, is we passed The 

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Gatekeepers that have Telluride 
Toronto, New York, and a 24 

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bought us out of Toronto. 
And then there was a whole 

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period of special screenings 
screenings are groups like I did

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a lecture tour various 
seminaries, small festivals 

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overseas festivals. 
It's a full-time job and then in

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March, David Frankel who you're 
just talking to called me into a

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meeting in this room. 
He said, it's an that they were 

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going to change the release 
pattern and they're going to 

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change the dates, change the 
theaters. 

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And we're talking about the 
campaign and he obviously saw 

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That I look very concerned and 
he said no Palmer's and this is 

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good news. 
This is a good news meeting but 

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my point being it was almost six
months after they bought the 

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field until they had run it 
through enough. 

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Gauntlets figure out what 
they're going to release it or 

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how much push their group behind
it. 

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Yeah. 
Now just because you make a 

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movie just because someone buys 
a movie don't mean anybody is 

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ever going to see it. 
Yes. 

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I know I thought that yeah of 
course. 

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The last time I made a movie 
last year, half of the effort 

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and work is the year of just 
trying to get it out there and 

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get people to see it. 
So it's always a mystery and a 

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struggle particular. 
If you get caught award season 

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like relative where, you know, 
it's from Labor Day to April's. 

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Yeah. 
It's a full-time but that's 

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exciting when movies. 
Yeah break out because you're 

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right. 
It's so we're yeah I mean and 

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there's almost no way you know 
you can predict You can do 

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certain things but, you know, if
a movie hits the Zeitgeist, it's

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just luck. 
You know, we hit the side guys 

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with Taxi Driver, all those 
years ago, what degree of 

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calculation was there not to my 
knowledge, it just happened. 

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Yeah, just happens again. 
Now, it seems like there's a lot

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more behind it, and it's all 
kind of campaigning and that 

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didn't exist. 
Yeah, you were asking me a 

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minute ago, your friend. 
She was entertaining, my friend 

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Tamara Jenkins was editing at 
Post Factory and she said, she 

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met you there when you were 
working on First Reform and that

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you were also editing a movie 
with my cousin. 

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Nicholas Cage. 
Yes. 

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Well, what happened was about 
six years ago? 

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Carlos had a terrible situation 
happen and they they tried to 

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killed her. 
At least, that's how it felt to 

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me. 
They took my film away and Nick 

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and I and other people disowned 
it and they dumped it. 

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And, you know, I sort of 
descended into Despair and 

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Batman. 
Holiday. 

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And I thought, well, this is how
my career's going to end with a 

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fiasco. 
You know. 

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This is this would be my, the 
enduring taste in my mouth and I

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was the phone, I was called 
dying of the light. 

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So then I still in touch with 
Nick and I said, Nick, you know,

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we should work together again 
and get it right. 

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Get this stain off our clothes, 
meaning primarily my clothes. 

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I think he's terrible feeling 
and so then, I came along that I

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You'll be good for Doggy Dogg 
and I said to the people, I 

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think I can get me cage for 
this, but you have to give me 

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Final Cut because I wrote it 
without. 

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Well, God, after what happened 
last time. 

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So they look at you can have 
wonderful. 

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I can't believe that you 
wouldn't always be able to, I 

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never felt I needed it before. 
I mean, yeah, in the 70s and 

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80s. 
You're always dealing with 

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moving people. 
People were like movies people. 

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Ya know, you would disagree, 
sometimes movie, would get 

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better or worse. 
But But it was a movie people. 

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Yeah. 
Now the whole group of a built 

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in the film business, who not 
only don't go to movies, they 

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don't even like them much. 
Yeah. 

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And and so, how do you deal with
these people? 

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And then then also found a 
couple that actually means 

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something. 
So, we met I made this kind of 

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film with neck and Willem Dafoe 
dog-eat-dog, my sort of 

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Tarantino film, and it was just 
really outrageous felt that sort

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of brought me back to life and 
then, I don't think about what 

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can I do now that I have this 
Final Cut thing, but we have 

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always been afraid to make, so 
that's spiritual Phil, you know?

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Because of the economics will 
never write, you know, it was 

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always a financially 
irresponsible them to make. 

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And that somebody would try to 
take it away from your, at some 

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point. 
I said, but now we can get the 

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budgets down low enough. 
So that's responsible, I'm not 

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use my final cut. 
To do nothing, you know, before 

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I use it to be outrageous. 
Now I can use it to be quiet. 

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Yeah, and so that's how that 
came about well at the state. 

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So I went to that editor, I use 
on Doggy Dogg because while I 

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was editing that I realized what
I was doing wrong with trying to

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live life, I realized that. 
I needed to be much more 

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aggressive with the 
entertainment. 

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And this editor. 
Ben Rodriguez is a student of 

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Hank or words who did Natural 
Born Killers. 

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So in that school, And he was 
and he edited first performed. 

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Yeah, and I said to him, you had
a dog eat dog. 

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I said to her, I'm gonna hire 
you for first before. 

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I don't need you for first Fort.
It's very simple job but we'll 

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get through it to the power 7 
weeks. 

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Then I want you to re-edit an 
entire life which I don't own 

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legally. 
We'll just edit it without 

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permission. 
So we were editing both 

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simultaneously one, that's very,
very quiet film. 

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And one this completely gone and
of him and of course I do. 

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Don't own it. 
So I little walk around, I put 

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it in my archive, at UCLA film 
and Harry Ransom in Austin, and 

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here at MoMA. 
So if you, you know, call them 

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up. 
If we can see the new version or

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you can go to YouTube and just 
type in Schrader Rotterdam, and 

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then you will see an 
hour-and-a-half lecture. 

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I did about the whole process 
with around 25 minutes of clips 

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of the old version versus the 
new version. 

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How I had done that, we try to 
get a re-release, I don't own in

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there. 
Also, I offered to do all of 

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this for free. 
Yeah. 

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And I was turned out because 
there's a lot of bad feelings. 

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Now, that's terrible and 
somebody with that felt. 

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So now I find myself in the 
opposite position which was 

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after Diana, right? 
I said, this is how it's going 

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to end. 
Now I'm after for formed, I'm in

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the position of saying Well, 
this is how it should it, which 

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is almost as intimidating. 
Yeah. 

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You know, you start thinking. 
Well, you know, if this is my 

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last know, did you really 
approach it as your last film 

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know you are every project? 
You have to think? 

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No, not really, I mean, but 
after a certain age, you know, 

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you see often Tom Petty's, did 
it? 

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Tom Petty plan to make that last
album, you know? 

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But this is a movie that you've 
always wanted to make the movie.

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I subject matter that you've 
always wanted. 

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The movie. 
I always didn't want to make but

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did you grow up with religion? 
Yes, I'm a product of that, 

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question from church. 
So that would be what's a 

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Christian when I was Christian. 
Hi Calvin. 

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And before I got involved in 
filmmaking, I wrote a book of 

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theological Aesthetics, you 
called transcendental style and 

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fit and it was about 02 and 
bracelet and dryer. 

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How did you learn about 0zu? 
I learned about Odin from Don 

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Richie human. 
What happened was? 

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I had to steal logic. 
Education. 

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And then I had this love of the 
movies and all said I started 

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seeing in specific films, a 
bridge between my sacred path to

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my profane present but it wasn't
a bridge of content was a 

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British style and soon as I made
that Revelation I said you know,

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you can connect these things. 
Stylistically content is 

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becoming a material, so I wrote 
that book about it and I was 

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published in 72 and I've 
Rewritten it Bring it up to date

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and that's coming out in two 
days, people try to connect my 

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films with that book. 
And I said, don't know, that's 

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not me. 
I like those films. 

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I've written about those films, 
but I myself, too intoxicated 

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with sex and violence action and
empathy. 

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You know, these are not elements
in the transcendental toolkit, 

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you know, you will never catch 
me, you know, on that, then 

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brace only and ice. 
It's I'm not going to go out 

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there. 
I'm going to fall in the fall 

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in. 
If I go out there and that's the

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way it was for decades. 
And then three years ago, I was 

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giving, pavelka, bulowski the 
National Society of film critics

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award for Eda. 
So when we were talking about 

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spirituality and movies and talk
about my book, talking about the

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new economics of film, and I 
walked up town and I said, you 

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know, we're going to be Next 
year. 

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It's time now. 
It's time to write that movie. 

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Do some, who are you? 
Not right scariest. 

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And once I see I made a decision
to cross that bridge became 

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relatively easy and I won't one 
of the things that had always 

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been holding me back. 
Was the feeling that I would 

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walk into spiritual Arena and 
fail? 

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Then the that to me, seems like 
the worst of Both Worlds. 

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Yeah, I'd rather fail the 
secular Arena. 

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But I'm always like I said, 
okay, you know you're 75, got 

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Final Cut, if you are not going 
to do it now, you're never going

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to do it. 
Yeah but yeah it was good to do 

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something scary but I feel like 
and but there's a similarity in 

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that character obviously to 
Travis Bickle. 

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Were you thinking about similar?
Yeah yeah I mean what happened 

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was is in March of 1969. 
I was a Critic for the Allied 

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free press the 1, key to Los 
Feliz, theater, the lovely 

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theater, some pickpocket in that
75-minute movie to think. 

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Kevin one is, I realized that 
there was a contact between 

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spirituality and Cinema and of 
the contact of style and out of 

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that came the book. 
The other thing I saw, Was this 

224
00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:09,200
kid in this room writing in a 
journal, going out committing 

225
00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,000
some crimes, writing some 
Journal, some more. 

226
00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,900
And I was living at the time 
with a group of UCLA film 

227
00:13:16,900 --> 00:13:21,500
students, who are making a biker
film for Roger, Corman called 

228
00:13:21,500 --> 00:13:26,800
naked angels. 
And I, and I was a film student 

229
00:13:27,100 --> 00:13:30,500
and not a filmmaking student. 
And I thought what they were 

230
00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:34,200
doing was just so d-class a, i 
He's very elitist and, you know,

231
00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,100
after we the film critic 
Community will tell you, when 

232
00:13:37,100 --> 00:13:40,900
you make a good physicist, and 
I'm sure they thought the same 

233
00:13:40,900 --> 00:13:45,900
way and then I saw that film. 
I said, wow, I can make a film 

234
00:13:45,900 --> 00:13:49,600
like that, you know, the maybe 
there is a place for me in this 

235
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,500
in this trashy business, you 
know, I could make that film. 

236
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,400
And then three years later, I 
wrote Taxi Driver, which is that

237
00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:02,100
film, you know, dining room with
his with a journal goes out. 

238
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:06,700
At them and moving on, some kind
of personal Arc. 

239
00:14:06,900 --> 00:14:14,900
And so now, 50 years afterward 
those two seats which, which 

240
00:14:15,100 --> 00:14:18,300
dropped into the petri dish, at 
that site warning, there's a 

241
00:14:18,300 --> 00:14:22,000
connection and finally connected
again this film performed where 

242
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,900
you have that style and that 
character coming around right 

243
00:14:27,300 --> 00:14:29,700
now. 
I've used that character a 

244
00:14:29,708 --> 00:14:31,700
number of times. 
No. 

245
00:14:31,700 --> 00:14:34,700
When he was Young. 
He was lonely in the taxi driver

246
00:14:35,100 --> 00:14:40,600
and then he was narcissistic and
of gigolo and then he was 

247
00:14:40,700 --> 00:14:45,700
anxious and a drug dealer like 
sleeper, then he was superficial

248
00:14:46,500 --> 00:14:51,600
and Society Walker. 
And now he's finally Minister 

249
00:14:51,700 --> 00:14:55,500
and he suffers from despair. 
So, they're all the same Parts, 

250
00:14:55,700 --> 00:14:59,200
different sides of your son is a
progression through life. 

251
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:06,100
Yeah, you know, and Every time 
you sort of come to the North in

252
00:15:06,100 --> 00:15:09,900
possession, that characters or 
swings around again, I don't 

253
00:15:09,900 --> 00:15:13,100
know if you need, see you in a 
different and yeah I don't know.

254
00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:14,300
What do you have a similar 
character? 

255
00:15:14,300 --> 00:15:18,000
You say well you know it's time 
I take a look at her again. 

256
00:15:18,500 --> 00:15:19,600
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

257
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,200
I've always wondered, usually, 
when I'm starting to write. 

258
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,500
I don't know why I'm drawn to it
and then afterwards, I start to 

259
00:15:24,500 --> 00:15:28,800
see the connection. 
When, when you start did you say

260
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:30,900
it's time to revisit that 
character or he kind of creeps 

261
00:15:30,900 --> 00:15:34,800
up on you? 
Well, here's how it happened 

262
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:36,100
with likely but it's 
interesting. 

263
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:45,600
I was worried over and I want to
do a midlife will be and and I 

264
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,800
also thought about this for 
almost a year Lord through all 

265
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,900
the cliches and college 
professor and Guy quits her job 

266
00:15:52,900 --> 00:15:56,600
becomes an adventure. 
So I could not come up with a 

267
00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:01,700
decent bit like metaphor and 
then I was asleep and you don't 

268
00:16:01,700 --> 00:16:05,600
dream. 
About 5:00 a.m. like a character

269
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,600
came to me and he was a drug 
dealer That I Used to Know. 

270
00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,700
Name is John. 
It came, right? 

271
00:16:11,900 --> 00:16:15,200
Smack up to my face and I woke 
up in a start. 

272
00:16:16,300 --> 00:16:18,900
Wow, that was Vivid. 
Well, I haven't thought about 

273
00:16:18,900 --> 00:16:23,000
him in a year and I said, what 
are we talking about? 

274
00:16:23,500 --> 00:16:27,700
And I thought, oh, he was asking
me about the movies and then I 

275
00:16:27,700 --> 00:16:32,000
realized this is my guy I 
couldn't find him. 

276
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,300
So, He found me. 
I got up right there, in their 

277
00:16:35,300 --> 00:16:39,200
start making notes. 
Track them down, they're very 

278
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,200
same day. 
He and his boys, he ended up 

279
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,000
being played by Willem Dafoe 
with Boss by Susan Sarandon. 

280
00:16:45,700 --> 00:16:49,500
And it was the same Taxi Driver 
guy, the guy with the journal, 

281
00:16:49,500 --> 00:16:53,200
the guy, only an hour, his in 
the back seat of the car, with 

282
00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:56,600
envelopes of drugs, rather than 
the front seat of the car, it 

283
00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,200
was so interesting. 
And now, here he is, again, in a

284
00:16:59,208 --> 00:17:03,200
different stage of his life and 
and deal with What's happening? 

285
00:17:03,700 --> 00:17:07,200
Yeah. 
So it takes amount of living to 

286
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,800
return. 
You can't do a Woody Allen with 

287
00:17:09,808 --> 00:17:12,000
those kind of characters. 
You can't write about a member 

288
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:13,099
here. 
Yeah. 

289
00:17:13,099 --> 00:17:14,200
Yeah. 
I can't imagine. 

290
00:17:15,300 --> 00:17:18,200
Well, that's interesting. 
And and did you have Ethan Hawke

291
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,700
in mind? 
Or did you find him after? 

292
00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,900
No, I mean, you know, normally I
do you think of actors when 

293
00:17:25,900 --> 00:17:27,400
you're writing, I try not to do 
you. 

294
00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:30,500
I do because it helps me that 
picture certain. 

295
00:17:30,900 --> 00:17:33,500
I think it's just the opposite. 
So if you're sitting there 

296
00:17:33,500 --> 00:17:35,700
typing or writing a speech. 
Yeah. 

297
00:17:36,700 --> 00:17:39,600
Now, you hear Denzel Washington.
Say, it's a graph. 

298
00:17:39,700 --> 00:17:42,400
That's a great speech. 
No, it's not a great speech. 

299
00:17:42,700 --> 00:17:51,200
At least stay with me and so so 
I'd try it all cost not to think

300
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,700
of an actor. 
It's because it is cheating and 

301
00:17:54,700 --> 00:17:59,100
cheating and but about halfway 
through this. 

302
00:17:59,100 --> 00:18:03,300
Now there is a certain 
physiognomy of Suffering man of 

303
00:18:03,308 --> 00:18:08,300
the cloth, they'll hardly do and
Country priest or gummy cliff 

304
00:18:08,300 --> 00:18:10,500
and I confess. 
So you start thinking about 

305
00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:14,200
actors who fit that bill and 
Jake Gyllenhaal, Oscar, Isaac 

306
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:19,900
and Ethan and Ethan was 10 years
older than the other two and he 

307
00:18:19,900 --> 00:18:23,800
was just starting to get some 
very interesting wrinkles on his

308
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,200
face. 
You know, the, some of those 

309
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,500
guys. 
It takes a long time for the 

310
00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:32,100
Boyhood to go away, right? 
Like Griffin, Dunne was like 20 

311
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:39,000
Five for 30 years. 
Yeah and so Ethan has all the 

312
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:45,200
sudden now becoming much more 
interested in that way and and I

313
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:50,400
always thought he would be very 
good as an internalized back 

314
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:51,100
here. 
Yeah. 

315
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,100
I've never seen him. 
Yeah, his personality is kind 

316
00:18:54,100 --> 00:18:58,500
of, he has a kind of goofy 
personality that is the sort of 

317
00:18:59,300 --> 00:19:02,000
post hippie kind of attitude 
toward things. 

318
00:19:02,300 --> 00:19:05,700
And so the first time I met 
them, I said, you know, this is 

319
00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:11,200
a Leanback performance. 
You know, whenever you detect 

320
00:19:12,100 --> 00:19:16,600
the viewer getting interested 
startling away, you know, don't 

321
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,300
give it. 
Don't do enough. 

322
00:19:18,500 --> 00:19:20,100
See how far you can get away 
from them? 

323
00:19:21,500 --> 00:19:24,800
Yeah, I know it felt it felt 
very like we were having to lean

324
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:29,200
forward to try to and that's 
sort of what it is with these. 

325
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,500
Spiritual kind of things, you 
can't really. 

326
00:19:35,700 --> 00:19:40,200
Push anybody into the mystery 
only you can do is learn and 

327
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,400
guide them but those steps they 
take they are. 

328
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:49,200
Yeah they have to take you can't
play us spiritual music or have 

329
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,500
a spiritual plot. 
Jamaican people say? 

330
00:19:53,500 --> 00:19:57,300
Oh, I Paul God. 
Ya know, when you, when you 

331
00:19:57,300 --> 00:20:01,000
decide to touch the mystery, 
it's because you've been put in 

332
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:05,000
a kind of a tight spot by the 
artist. 

333
00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:10,900
And one of the ways you can go 
is to jump forward and that's 

334
00:20:11,300 --> 00:20:14,500
what that whole notion of 
transcendental Style with about 

335
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:19,800
how do you style is simply the 
corner of viewer so that you 

336
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:21,500
trapped and want to jump 
forward? 

337
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:23,800
Jump into the mystery. 
Yeah. 

338
00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:28,000
It was uncomfortable State 
watching it but you can't look 

339
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,500
away. 
And it's an interesting State 

340
00:20:30,500 --> 00:20:33,000
that's unusual and he's I think.
Yeah. 

341
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:39,000
And and going back to Taxi 
driver and something I learned 

342
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:45,200
are two devices. 
One of the narration, which I've

343
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,700
always loved particularly what 
it's written, has to be written 

344
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:53,900
for it. 
And, and I regarded as 

345
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,900
intravenous feeding, I'm going 
to put a tube in your arm and 

346
00:20:57,900 --> 00:21:01,500
I'm going to start, giving you 
your judgment, you won't be able

347
00:21:01,500 --> 00:21:04,500
to taste it, and you won't be 
able to feel it, but it starts 

348
00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:07,400
going to fill up your body. 
Be it starts to take effect. 

349
00:21:07,500 --> 00:21:11,200
Yeah and that one thing I'm 
going to do. 

350
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:16,100
The other thing I'm going to do 
is tell you a story from only 

351
00:21:16,100 --> 00:21:18,400
one point of view monocular 
story. 

352
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,800
So you're seeing this one 
character, go about his days, 

353
00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:27,000
only you stay with him the whole
time, you don't ever see 

354
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,700
anything without whether it's, 
You Know, Travis be colder 

355
00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:36,200
weather, and this guy so. 
So after about 45 minutes, I'm 

356
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:41,000
hearing this guy talk and seeing
only what he sees you are now 

357
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,700
identified with him. 
How can you not? 

358
00:21:43,900 --> 00:21:46,700
You know, if you're still in 
that fear, you are identified. 

359
00:21:47,900 --> 00:21:51,600
It starts to go off the rails, 
just a little bit, then a little

360
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,800
bit further and then a little 
bit further, I'll tell you come 

361
00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:01,500
to the position where you are 
still identifying with someone 

362
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,300
but you no longer think he's 
worthy of your identification. 

363
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:12,100
And that the crunch that that's 
a little crevice. 

364
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:18,300
You can lay down someone's skull
and it'll cause them not and who

365
00:22:18,300 --> 00:22:20,700
knows what the viewers going to 
do at that point because you 

366
00:22:20,700 --> 00:22:23,200
can't predict that. 
But, you know, that you put the 

367
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,100
viewer in a very uncomfortable 
place to they're going to react 

368
00:22:26,100 --> 00:22:27,700
somehow. 
Yeah. 

369
00:22:27,700 --> 00:22:29,100
Yeah. 
You don't see it coming, or you 

370
00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:31,100
start to see close it. 
And then before, you know, it, 

371
00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:34,700
you've gone farther than you 
expected to integrate wind at 

372
00:22:34,700 --> 00:22:37,500
that happen. 
Yeah. 

373
00:22:38,100 --> 00:22:42,600
And I'm surprised how violent it
is for such a sparse. 

374
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,800
Well, there is no violence for 
saves obviously, anticipation of

375
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,700
violence. 
Yeah, but there's like the ones 

376
00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:53,100
in the woods like it's very the 
shock. 

377
00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:54,900
There's a chugging, it's not. 
Yeah. 

378
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,600
But there again, you know, when 
you with whole thing, Of people,

379
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,200
and that's right. 
And let's take the case of 

380
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,600
music, right? 
So now you're you see a scene at

381
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:09,400
a kid's line in the snow with 
his head, half blown off and 

382
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,400
there's no music. 
And part of you, as a viewer 

383
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,300
said, come on, play some music. 
Tell me how I'm supposed to 

384
00:23:15,308 --> 00:23:20,100
feel, you know, he won the to 
tell you how to feel, but it 

385
00:23:20,100 --> 00:23:24,500
leads you to my God. 
And so that is another way to 

386
00:23:24,500 --> 00:23:31,400
create unease, is no. 
But I want to ask so you said 

387
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,600
you're writing. 
Now I am kind of procrastinating

388
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,300
and avoiding writing but yes I 
have it hasn't been started a 

389
00:23:38,300 --> 00:23:40,000
couple years ago that I put away
now. 

390
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,300
I took it out to try to come 
back to it. 

391
00:23:43,300 --> 00:23:45,600
Have you ever done that where 
you abandoned something came 

392
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,900
back to it or act? 
Yeah, I wanted to do a film 20 

393
00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:54,900
years ago with Arnold 
Schwarzenegger remake of a, but 

394
00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:58,000
that occur Western. 
And then he decided to run, 

395
00:23:58,100 --> 00:24:02,000
Governor and I never got the 
rights but now I'm making the 

396
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,200
rice back now so still interests
you. 

397
00:24:06,700 --> 00:24:09,600
Well, that's 20. 20 years old, 
it needs to. 

398
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,200
Now it needs to be updated. 
Yeah. 

399
00:24:13,500 --> 00:24:16,200
All I know for sure right now is
I've got to do something 

400
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,100
completely different and you 
know, people have come up to me 

401
00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:22,500
after the film and said, what 
are you going to make another 

402
00:24:22,500 --> 00:24:24,800
feel like that? 
I said I don't know if I ever 

403
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,400
will. 
After every film, do you go 

404
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,900
through that period of Of 
searching. 

405
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,700
I said that you and I have this 
in common, which is part of the 

406
00:24:35,700 --> 00:24:38,500
fun of making filters. 
Seeing if you can do something. 

407
00:24:38,700 --> 00:24:40,500
Yeah, I've never done this 
before. 

408
00:24:41,500 --> 00:24:45,900
You know, I did a little 
Kickstarter movie with Bret 

409
00:24:45,900 --> 00:24:48,900
Easton Ellis part of the fun of 
it. 

410
00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:50,800
We did Lindsay Lohan, a porn 
star. 

411
00:24:50,900 --> 00:24:53,600
Yeah, part of part was. 
Can we do this? 

412
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:54,300
Brett? 
Yeah. 

413
00:24:54,300 --> 00:24:57,500
Can we actually pull this off? 
But is that is half the fun of 

414
00:24:57,500 --> 00:25:01,300
it or you can I make a Tarantino
movie are? 

415
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,400
No. 
Can I do this kind of setting up

416
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,900
a challenge for you? 
Because so often I go to a movie

417
00:25:07,900 --> 00:25:10,900
theater, look up at the screen 
like that, you know? 

418
00:25:11,500 --> 00:25:12,600
How do they stay? 
Awake? 

419
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,400
Yeah. 
Well, these people have made 

420
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,600
this movie ten times now. 
Yeah. 

421
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:16,800
Oh, yeah. 
I know. 

422
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,700
It's so it's so great. 
When you see something, you 

423
00:25:18,700 --> 00:25:21,600
haven't seen a million. 
But so, how did you start with? 

424
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,200
I know you decided to face the 
fear of doing something in this 

425
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,900
subject matter. 
But then did the character just 

426
00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:31,000
come to you? 
And well, and it feels so much 

427
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,700
about current. 
Yeah, well, this data and you 

428
00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:38,100
know that character I've written
about before and and first thing

429
00:25:38,100 --> 00:25:44,500
I do is re watching the films of
the silk that I thought it had 

430
00:25:44,500 --> 00:25:50,400
worked that were effective and 
just you know, checking to the 

431
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:56,300
landscape and watching about two
dozen films and you can you 

432
00:25:56,300 --> 00:26:03,100
church and and you start slow 
set them on their you start 

433
00:26:03,100 --> 00:26:07,200
picking up things you know, and 
a lot of what we do is, you 

434
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,100
know, simply theft. 
Yeah, assemblage, you know? 

435
00:26:12,100 --> 00:26:19,400
And so and the secret of our 
feelings is, then you have to 

436
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,500
steal around my dad or 
grandfather. 

437
00:26:22,500 --> 00:26:27,900
We said steal from the best but 
but you can't keep going back to

438
00:26:27,900 --> 00:26:30,400
the same that you can't keep 
going back to the same 7-Eleven.

439
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:31,700
They're Gonna Catch You right? 
Right. 

440
00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:36,300
So you can go to the bath, but 
you can't be the same about. 

441
00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:39,100
So you go to, you know, go over 
the floral shop. 

442
00:26:39,100 --> 00:26:43,700
I can mix them. 
Then you go over to that little 

443
00:26:43,900 --> 00:26:47,600
hot dog, stand that nobody goes 
to and then you put them 

444
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,900
together and that's all any of 
us ever do. 

445
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:53,200
Ya know? 
It's true. 

446
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,900
I was talking to my dad about 
the conversation and he said oh 

447
00:26:55,900 --> 00:26:58,500
I just I saw blow up but I 
wanted to make a blow-up and I 

448
00:26:58,500 --> 00:27:03,100
had no idea. 
It was like and then the 

449
00:27:03,100 --> 00:27:04,900
promised our conversation 
anyway. 

450
00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:12,500
So then you I'm curious about 
your writing You, okay? 

451
00:27:12,700 --> 00:27:14,600
There's like can write better at
night than during the day. 

452
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,200
Do you have any rituals? 
All right, I am Vengeance 

453
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:19,900
writer. 
I don't consider myself a real 

454
00:27:19,900 --> 00:27:22,500
writer. 
I think a real writer writes 

455
00:27:22,500 --> 00:27:26,000
every day, but I don't know. 
I've heard, I can't do that 

456
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,300
either. 
So I miss you feel better. 

457
00:27:27,300 --> 00:27:31,500
You just sit down until the idea
is done and I used to be a 

458
00:27:31,500 --> 00:27:36,400
Knight Rider. 
And but that was always fueled 

459
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,100
by nighttime additives. 
Um, you know, the caffeine and 

460
00:27:40,100 --> 00:27:41,900
nicotine addict, okay? 
And the alcohol. 

461
00:27:42,300 --> 00:27:47,500
And then I had children took 
almost a year to learn to write 

462
00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:49,500
during the day. 
I'm so glad because I'm 

463
00:27:49,900 --> 00:27:52,900
struggling with this and and no 
one ever talks about it. 

464
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,700
Yeah. 
And you know, I used to start 

465
00:27:57,700 --> 00:28:02,400
right about 10:30 11:00, right? 
2005 and boy, it was just buzz 

466
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:09,400
along, but rather lie and I 
started doing more drugs and 

467
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,700
making left pages. 
At the beginning, there wasn't 

468
00:28:12,700 --> 00:28:17,200
many drugs but there's like 15 
pages and then there was a lot 

469
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,400
of bumps and those last two 
pages in your written and you 

470
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:26,100
say, oh am I writing it? 
And I think you'd like to write 

471
00:28:26,100 --> 00:28:29,900
or I'm pretending to write in 
order to justify any drugs. 

472
00:28:30,900 --> 00:28:35,000
I never thought about that. 
So then I went on the day shift 

473
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:39,200
and that took a while and I'm 
still on the day shift. 

474
00:28:40,100 --> 00:28:44,500
Well, how many pages? 
Can do in a good day for 

475
00:28:44,500 --> 00:28:48,600
average. 
Well, I can't read very fast the

476
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:54,400
way I do that is I outline and 
tell the story. 

477
00:28:55,300 --> 00:28:59,500
So you know where you're going 
by, that the whole story, you 

478
00:28:59,500 --> 00:29:02,500
know what the end date? 
Do you know what I can tell you?

479
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,400
What will happen on page? 
55 and a half before before I 

480
00:29:06,408 --> 00:29:08,700
start to write because it's all 
in my out. 

481
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:10,500
Okay. 
I never do an outline. 

482
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,200
I've done this and I use the 
outline to make an oral 

483
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,300
presentation. 
I tell the story and every time 

484
00:29:17,300 --> 00:29:20,400
I tell the story I redo the 
outline that doubles, don't 

485
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,100
worry do the only one at some 
point. 

486
00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:26,200
You start putting in projected 
page counts, you know. 

487
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,600
So don't you have a feeling of 
what page you're on when this, 

488
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,700
when this part of the story 
kicks in and you do that? 

489
00:29:32,700 --> 00:29:35,900
And I've, if you can tell 
somebody a story for 15 minutes,

490
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:43,700
45 minutes then listen you've 
got to move. and what happens if

491
00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:49,800
you tell story or not, why don't
you think happens when you Tire 

492
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,100
of it and it dies on you? 
And that's a good day that 

493
00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:56,300
you've saved yourself from 
writing, something that was 

494
00:29:56,300 --> 00:30:01,000
going to die, anyway, or the 
other things sometimes to 

495
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,500
happen, which it says I'm sick 
of being told, you know, don't 

496
00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:08,000
tell me one more time, right me,
is it time now? 

497
00:30:08,300 --> 00:30:10,700
Right? 
And and then the writing comes, 

498
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:16,900
you know, quite quickly and and 
occasionally A, I have stumbled 

499
00:30:16,900 --> 00:30:21,300
into this process where I had 
two thirds of the story, but not

500
00:30:21,300 --> 00:30:23,600
the last third and I thought it 
would come. 

501
00:30:23,700 --> 00:30:26,100
Yeah. 
And didn't because I was fuck, 

502
00:30:26,100 --> 00:30:27,800
I'm rushing to get the end of 
that. 

503
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,600
That's interesting. 
And and would you say this is a 

504
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:38,900
happy ending this? 
That's too simple. 

505
00:30:41,900 --> 00:30:44,300
But what do you think? 
I don't want it. 

506
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,000
I don't want to give away 
anything. 

507
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,100
Well, you know, I wasn't sure 
and I think it's mixed. 

508
00:30:48,100 --> 00:30:49,600
That's what I think that's more 
interesting. 

509
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,100
Then. 
Yeah, you do want to have one of

510
00:30:51,100 --> 00:30:52,500
the other, of course, it's mixed
emotions. 

511
00:30:52,700 --> 00:30:55,100
I don't know. 
I don't know what the ending is.

512
00:30:55,300 --> 00:30:58,200
Yeah, it's done 30 going to be 
okay. 

513
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,400
It can be read in what either 
one of two ways. 

514
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,000
Well, one of the sir Miracle has
occurred in his life spared. 

515
00:31:06,100 --> 00:31:12,600
The other is, Equally my chant 
optimistic which is he drinks 

516
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,900
the drain hole and he's on all 
fours, and he's throwing up his 

517
00:31:16,900 --> 00:31:20,800
stomach, he's imagining and 
guard comes over to him. 

518
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,300
Let's not talk to him for the 
whole movie and says rev told 

519
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,200
you want to know what heaven 
looks like. 

520
00:31:28,700 --> 00:31:30,600
Here it is. 
This is exactly what it looks 

521
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:36,300
like. 
It looks like one long kiss and 

522
00:31:36,300 --> 00:31:41,900
that's the last thing he sees 
He's yeah I took it as it was. 

523
00:31:42,300 --> 00:31:46,700
Yeah I wasn't sure whether it 
was real or not so I wondered if

524
00:31:46,700 --> 00:31:48,900
you. 
Yeah. 

525
00:31:49,100 --> 00:31:52,500
And then decided yeah, we were 
tweaking it in the editing, you 

526
00:31:52,500 --> 00:31:56,700
know, when people see it trying 
to get trying to make it like 

527
00:31:56,700 --> 00:31:58,900
having a half. 
So whenever I showed it I would 

528
00:31:58,900 --> 00:32:01,900
say is the alive or dead when it
was trying to get the Bucks, a 

529
00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:04,100
monaghan's to go up for both, 
all right. 

530
00:32:04,100 --> 00:32:05,600
But do you? 
I don't want to even be 

531
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,700
shouldn't say it on our podcast,
but Should do you have an idea 

532
00:32:08,700 --> 00:32:12,400
of which side that's more honor 
are, you know, the ways know 

533
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,700
whenever people thought more 
people thought it was one way I 

534
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,200
shift the editing, so it's the 
other way. 

535
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,000
So that so that I didn't know. 
Right, right. 

536
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:27,100
Okay. 
And because a number of people 

537
00:32:27,100 --> 00:32:30,300
have interpreted the ending of 
Taxi Driver as a fantasy piece 

538
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,500
and I don't have a problem with 
that and it, but it's not what I

539
00:32:34,508 --> 00:32:38,300
intended. 
And so this time, I actually 

540
00:32:38,300 --> 00:32:42,200
can't end bad. 
It's now, are you traveling 

541
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,900
around with the film? 
And yeah, I've been on tour. 

542
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:53,000
I think just coming down to the 
end of it and I decided, you 

543
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:58,200
know, just to take this Victory 
lap, but none for that, but not 

544
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,600
a Victory. 
Lap is coming to an end and time

545
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,500
to get back to basics. 
I have to face a blank page. 

546
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,500
Yeah. 
Do you find it? 

547
00:33:06,900 --> 00:33:08,000
I mean, no. 
It's nice when people are 

548
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:09,900
interested in your work, but do 
you find it annoying to have to 

549
00:33:09,900 --> 00:33:11,500
explain? 
What? 

550
00:33:11,500 --> 00:33:14,300
You're what you were trying to 
do, instead of just having 

551
00:33:14,300 --> 00:33:19,400
people watch it? 
Well, if you've hidden enough 

552
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,000
nuggets in there, you some are 
talking about. 

553
00:33:22,300 --> 00:33:27,700
Yeah, sort of say, by the way, 
you notice open up that door, 

554
00:33:27,700 --> 00:33:31,500
you know. 
And so, you know, there are 

555
00:33:31,500 --> 00:33:38,000
things in the film later. 
That very few people know this, 

556
00:33:38,500 --> 00:33:41,000
but when you call their 
attention to it, it's actually 

557
00:33:41,300 --> 00:33:45,300
more interest and were you 
thinking about making something 

558
00:33:45,500 --> 00:33:50,700
to respond to the state of 
things now, or that just kind of

559
00:33:50,700 --> 00:33:53,700
seep in when, you know, it's 
kind of hard not to all right, 

560
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,100
you know? 
I mean, for thousands of years 

561
00:33:58,100 --> 00:34:01,700
human beings have been having a 
hypothetical discussion. 

562
00:34:02,100 --> 00:34:05,200
You know, why are we here? 
And what will become of us. 

563
00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:09,800
And now for the first time that 
discussion is steaming not so 

564
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,400
hypothetical. 
Right? 

565
00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:17,900
And you know, the possibility 
that the species has now 

566
00:34:17,900 --> 00:34:20,400
constituted will not see, the 
end of the citria. 

567
00:34:20,900 --> 00:34:22,699
That's a, that's a lot of 
Gravitas. 

568
00:34:22,699 --> 00:34:26,199
Yes. 
But was that in your in your 

569
00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:28,600
mind when you were starting out 
with this character or he kind 

570
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:37,500
of well, I knew that the but 
have to be about You have the 

571
00:34:37,500 --> 00:34:40,100
sickness unto death. 
Is what he regarded Holland, 

572
00:34:40,100 --> 00:34:44,199
which is despair that. 
I'm so he's in religious Despair

573
00:34:44,500 --> 00:34:52,199
and but that despair is somewhat
selfish and it is forbidden by 

574
00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:56,199
the church has suicide and 
saying us st. 

575
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,100
Augustine said, you know, 
suicide a sin. 

576
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:05,800
However he said, unless your 
Samson, And then it's 

577
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:12,200
Resurrection because your martyr
so you can see this guy and he's

578
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:17,100
very very tempted by despair 
going to suicide and then he 

579
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:21,700
catches this virus whereby he 
sees himself becoming a martyr 

580
00:35:22,500 --> 00:35:28,300
and now that that's really sick 
too, but it's very interesting. 

581
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,500
Yeah, yeah. 
Didn't think about how many ways

582
00:35:31,500 --> 00:35:38,300
you can approach that? 
And to you and if I'm here, do 

583
00:35:38,300 --> 00:35:40,200
you know what? 
This will lead you to next or do

584
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:46,500
you take the time to play around
with three things? 

585
00:35:46,500 --> 00:35:52,800
I wanted to complete style piece
and another is Contemporary 

586
00:35:52,800 --> 00:36:00,100
Western and another is the 
scariest what which is about my 

587
00:36:00,100 --> 00:36:02,600
brother. 
They always have to do the scary

588
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,200
just to us. 
I don't know. 

589
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:08,200
You know it, I wrote a film 
about my father, I wrote a film 

590
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,500
about my mother and I think 
they're two of the weakest films

591
00:36:10,500 --> 00:36:14,000
I did because there was not 
enough metaphorical distance 

592
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,700
between me and the subject, you 
know, whereas if I can make them

593
00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:22,100
attack you driver or Gigolo 
there, I got enough distance So 

594
00:36:22,100 --> 00:36:23,400
they were directly their 
stories. 

595
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,000
Yeah, it's fun. 
Well, our car was about my dad 

596
00:36:27,300 --> 00:36:30,300
and light of day was about my 
mom, but you've, but it was to 

597
00:36:30,300 --> 00:36:33,200
directly well. 
Yeah, because they were 

598
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,900
characters your father. 
And now the idea I'm writing 

599
00:36:36,900 --> 00:36:40,400
about my brother's about brother
and I keep thinking, maybe like,

600
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,400
am I too close? 
I might have closed. 

601
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:50,700
So, and I came to this idea 
because my brother died about 10

602
00:36:50,700 --> 00:36:56,000
years ago and His widow was 
dying and she was a hoarder. 

603
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:01,100
So we had that clean out her 
house, she clapped her kept 

604
00:37:01,100 --> 00:37:07,000
everything and I went through 
like a hundred 450 boxes and I 

605
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:12,500
found what I was looking for 
because I never saved stuff. 

606
00:37:12,900 --> 00:37:16,800
You know I've thrown my life out
the window like a greasy rather 

607
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:22,800
but my brother safe stuff and 
from 1966 to 1970 I wrote him 

608
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,900
every other week. 
I wrote him everything. 

609
00:37:26,900 --> 00:37:32,600
I've been movie, I saw coming to
UCLA going to film school 

610
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,100
meeting. 
Pauline kael, our know, and he 

611
00:37:36,100 --> 00:37:40,700
had others letters, and now 
become common is going to print 

612
00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:46,300
them, you know what a day for a 
while, but I was just thrown 

613
00:37:46,300 --> 00:37:50,600
back into that and so that I 
cursed God coming up with an 

614
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,800
idea. 
But I stopped after 40 pages and

615
00:37:54,800 --> 00:38:01,700
because I was just getting too 
close to it and it wasn't good 

616
00:38:01,700 --> 00:38:05,100
enough, I can feel it getting 
that thinning out. 

617
00:38:05,300 --> 00:38:08,700
So what I'm going to do now is 
back up and start at the 

618
00:38:08,707 --> 00:38:11,900
beginning again, maybe they're 
not progress, I'm not sure. 

619
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,300
You know remainder is that had 
it takes me that without it 

620
00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:18,700
being so direct. 
Well yeah I'll keep it from 

621
00:38:18,700 --> 00:38:25,400
being maybe I need to Put an 
external event in there. 

622
00:38:25,500 --> 00:38:27,700
Gives rather just family family 
family. 

623
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:34,400
No, I may be there has to be not
only side danger or mysterious 

624
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,700
death of some sort of this good 
warning for me to keep in mind 

625
00:38:37,700 --> 00:38:39,600
because you always everyone's 
always drawn to writing about 

626
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:45,100
their family so to make sure not
to fall in the Trap of yeah to 

627
00:38:45,100 --> 00:38:46,300
close. 
Yeah. 

628
00:38:46,300 --> 00:38:48,900
Although I did like that film, 
they did here at 8:24. 

629
00:38:49,300 --> 00:38:52,600
Did you see that film krisha? 
Oh yes. 

630
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,000
Now that's all those actual 
family. 

631
00:38:55,100 --> 00:38:58,200
That was incredible. 
Yeah, I mean that's what I was 

632
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,600
just thinking and that was the 
main character was like, was she

633
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,200
the aunt of the filmmaker? 
Yeah. 

634
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,500
They would never ever all family
with a handful of exceptions 

635
00:39:05,500 --> 00:39:08,800
that was actual Family Feud. 
Yeah. 

636
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,700
And yeah, that was really 
fascinating to watch. 

637
00:39:11,700 --> 00:39:17,100
Yeah, I found it a movie that I 
just couldn't imagine being able

638
00:39:17,100 --> 00:39:21,100
to do, you know. 
Yeah, I'm just looking at 

639
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,500
Filmography and you know you 
because you're from a different 

640
00:39:26,500 --> 00:39:29,900
generation, it's all this stuff 
gets mixed in, you know, the 

641
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,500
music and they the little bit, 
you know, I'm pretty much 

642
00:39:34,500 --> 00:39:37,400
straight from the screen right 
now, generation and then to 

643
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:42,900
directly generation and I 
haven't veered from that but I I

644
00:39:42,900 --> 00:39:46,200
see all the Temptation you 
because you did an operon. 

645
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,800
Oh yeah, I did but just because 
I was asked to and I felt like I

646
00:39:50,808 --> 00:39:54,100
couldn't Say no because it was 
terrifying, but it was in the 

647
00:39:54,100 --> 00:39:55,400
Live Theater, which I've never 
done. 

648
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,400
Yeah, I was asked to I was 
there. 

649
00:40:00,100 --> 00:40:03,400
Yeah, I did I didn't want to, 
but I'm glad I did because I 

650
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,400
felt like it was scary. 
I learn something. 

651
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:11,000
But um, but are you a musician? 
No, I've always liked music, and

652
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,900
they're a lot of musicians in my
family, my father's father, and 

653
00:40:14,900 --> 00:40:16,600
uncle or conductors, and 
composer. 

654
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:21,100
So, so my dad's Uncle knew that 
new LED fog. 

655
00:40:21,300 --> 00:40:24,600
Very well and explain it to me 
and I just did it to do 

656
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,700
something scary and challenge 
myself but I wonder what you 

657
00:40:27,700 --> 00:40:31,800
have such a strong visual style,
obviously our director. 

658
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:37,500
But from a writer I just think 
of like the way the first two 

659
00:40:37,500 --> 00:40:42,200
films I just Illustrated it was 
until a third film. 

660
00:40:42,300 --> 00:40:43,700
Which where was the American 
Gigolo? 

661
00:40:43,700 --> 00:40:46,800
And now the third one it has 
such a great style that was 

662
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,000
because of this guy scarfiotti 
Nando. 

663
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,900
Brought over from Bertolucci. 
He had done conformist and last 

664
00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:57,100
course, we have two sets 
everything in the look at it. 

665
00:40:57,100 --> 00:41:01,800
So and I just, I just put myself
really at his feet, but you knew

666
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:08,300
you need another thing to 
combine that and I I needed a 

667
00:41:08,300 --> 00:41:18,100
master mentor and and I had seen
conformist and I heard that he 

668
00:41:18,100 --> 00:41:21,200
and Bertolucci were having a 
little bit of a falling out. 

669
00:41:21,300 --> 00:41:24,500
Out over, No Agenda. 
So I went over there and invited

670
00:41:24,500 --> 00:41:29,700
him to come to the u.s. and, and
we did those two films together 

671
00:41:29,700 --> 00:41:35,600
and became very, very good 
friends and reach 80. 

672
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:40,700
He, he gave me eyes to people 
right around that same period 

673
00:41:40,700 --> 00:41:45,600
and Charles Eames and scarfiotti
because I was raised Charles E. 

674
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,600
Yeah. 
And I, I was raised in a church 

675
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,900
environment where if you had 
something to say, use words 

676
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:58,000
ourselves, you don't use images.
Yeah. 

677
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,200
Churches are just four White 
Walls, right? 

678
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:08,000
And and that's privileged. 
And so I always thought ideas 

679
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,700
were worked. 
And to me a while to learn that 

680
00:42:11,900 --> 00:42:16,000
images are also ideas. 
And he was, I was doing an 

681
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,800
article about of critical, 
generic one, Charles And I 

682
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:21,800
started hanging out at 301 
Washington. 

683
00:42:22,300 --> 00:42:25,900
And then my wife at the time, 
got a job there aren't, she 

684
00:42:25,900 --> 00:42:31,500
became one of his designers and 
and that was the first time. 

685
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,500
This whole notion of images are 
ideas. 

686
00:42:35,900 --> 00:42:38,500
I just hadn't thought of that. 
Wow, that's so interesting that 

687
00:42:38,500 --> 00:42:40,100
that's where you were introduced
to that. 

688
00:42:40,100 --> 00:42:42,000
Yeah, sure. 
This is a bad idea. 

689
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,900
This is not a white coffee cup. 
This is an idea and then did 

690
00:42:46,900 --> 00:42:53,600
those phones and Nando and And 
then it was his idea is not 

691
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:59,200
exactly what I was thinking 
about Los Angeles. 

692
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:03,100
I want D, Los Angeles, Los 
Angeles. 

693
00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:07,500
So I got, you know, I went to 
the Axis powers and went to 

694
00:43:07,508 --> 00:43:10,300
Germany and Italy. 
Yeah, gospel music from Germany 

695
00:43:10,300 --> 00:43:14,300
and look for how did you think 
to get Giorgio moroder? 

696
00:43:14,700 --> 00:43:18,700
Such a good combination? 
Yeah, with the I'm not quite 

697
00:43:18,700 --> 00:43:23,700
sure how. 
But I mean I was very interested

698
00:43:23,700 --> 00:43:27,100
in that but that sounds on 
interested in him and I was 

699
00:43:27,100 --> 00:43:29,400
interested in. 
German shells are yeah. 

700
00:43:29,900 --> 00:43:34,300
And what's the other one? 
Trans-europe Express Kraftwerk 

701
00:43:34,300 --> 00:43:35,400
traffic. 
Yes. 

702
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:39,200
So that was all in the air about
at that time, you're at school 

703
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,600
and was the story, an original 
story or was it based on 

704
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,800
something and had it? 
I know I should have gone on my 

705
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,000
mind, but I just love that movie
so much and Lauren Hutton she'd 

706
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,000
active. 
Yeah, sure one done. 

707
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,100
One thing before. 
Did you just know her from 

708
00:43:54,100 --> 00:44:01,900
around actually into mangers? 
One-woman show? 

709
00:44:01,900 --> 00:44:03,600
That that Miller did on 
Broadway. 

710
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:09,600
She tells the story that we're 
better as soon as I met someone,

711
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,600
if I never saw the show, but did
and so, she tells the story 

712
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,600
about how he has a dinner party 
at her house. 

713
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,300
Upsets me next to Lauren Hutton.
That's how it. 

714
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:27,900
I love knowing that thank you. 
So you have a title for your 

715
00:44:27,900 --> 00:44:29,800
thing yet. 
Is that bad? 

716
00:44:30,100 --> 00:44:32,900
No, I do but I don't know if 
I'll ever get my script 

717
00:44:32,900 --> 00:44:39,900
together. 
Yeah, I know the feeling you 

718
00:44:39,900 --> 00:44:41,100
live here. 
I do. 

719
00:44:41,100 --> 00:44:44,700
I live in the West Village about
Morton near Hudson. 

720
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:46,700
No, I was just there. 
I was just there. 

721
00:44:46,700 --> 00:44:49,900
Like I was at ten Hudson. 
Morning. 

722
00:44:50,100 --> 00:44:51,000
Oh, really? 
What? 

723
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,600
And where are you? 
I have a place of Chelsea but 

724
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:58,000
mostly I'm up in Putnam Valley. 
Okay, how about lake house? 

725
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,600
Do you have a country Health? 
We still go. 

726
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,000
Visit my family in Napa I know 
it's not that close but you 

727
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,700
know, I don't know. 
The first time I was at 

728
00:45:07,700 --> 00:45:11,900
Skywalker. 
This was way back then and 

729
00:45:11,900 --> 00:45:15,200
George that they were handful of
buildings there. 

730
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:20,100
You know and George had this big
bull I don't know if you ever 

731
00:45:20,100 --> 00:45:23,100
saw it is book of drawings, 
okay? 

732
00:45:23,100 --> 00:45:24,800
And it was a history of Lucas 
Valley. 

733
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,000
The very first people who came 
to look at Sally. 

734
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,300
The first shots that were built 
the first permanent building, 

735
00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:33,300
that was built. 
And just going through all the 

736
00:45:33,300 --> 00:45:37,300
years, history of Lucas Valley. 
And I said, wow, that's really 

737
00:45:37,300 --> 00:45:38,700
great. 
I've talked a lot of you 

738
00:45:38,700 --> 00:45:41,500
afterward. 
And I said, did he ever show you

739
00:45:41,500 --> 00:45:47,100
the book Tom said? 
He made up the book. 

740
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:48,700
None of it is true. 
Really? 

741
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:53,000
There was never, anybody looking
fairly he invented the whole he 

742
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,600
bought the valley and then 
invented the history for us. 

743
00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:00,700
I never heard that. 
Well, thank you Sophia. 

744
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,800
Thank you luck, and thank you. 
Thank you. 

745
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,300
I appreciate all the writing 
insights and excited for your 

746
00:46:08,300 --> 00:46:11,300
vehicle and I think your world 
is ready for another Sofia 

747
00:46:11,300 --> 00:46:13,300
Coppola film. 
Oh, thank you. 

748
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:20,700
Do it. 
Thanks so much for listening. 

749
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:22,900
Look out for episode 5 next 
month. 

750
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,900
The a24 podcast is produced by 
us a 24, special. 

751
00:46:27,900 --> 00:46:30,900
Thanks to Doug and Aaron a robot
repair who composed our theme 

752
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,900
The a24 podcast is produced by 
us a 24, special. 

753
00:46:27,900 --> 00:46:30,900
Thanks to Doug and Aaron a robot
repair who composed our theme