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Hello everybody, and welcome to 
the Doctors of Running podcast 

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where we, a group of doctors of 
physical therapy, discussed the 

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art and science of running and 
the stuff that we put on our 

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feet. 
Today at the round table is 

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Doctor Matthew Klein, the 
founder of Doctors of Running, 

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and myself. 
I'm Nathan Brown and today we 

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are going to be mostly having a 
conversation about the potential

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impacts of the increase, 
increase in number of offerings 

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from companies with shoes with 
very high stack heights in the 

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heel. 
We're going to be talking about 

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what we do know about maximalist
footwear and the impact on the 

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body, but also things that we 
don't know, particularly in 

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relation to the intersection 
between the amount of foam, the 

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type of foam and other elements 
within the shoe. 

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So it should be a pretty unique 
conversation and we're calling 

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it a workshop conversation 
because this is something that 

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we don't have conclusions on. 
These are things that we are 

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considering. 
So as you listen to this 

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episode, we encourage you to 
join in on the conversation. 

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Tell us where you think that we 
may be missing the mark. 

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Tell us areas and angles of this
conversation that we may be 

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missing. 
This is truly a workshop, not 

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something that we are trying to 
come to with the answers to. 

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The other thing that we're going
to talk about is just a brief 

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discussion on winter running and
I'm going to share some of my 

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favorite tools that I use to 
make sure that I have the right 

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gear on to stay safe in the 
winter and to just keep running 

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enjoyable as the temperature 
start to drop. 

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And so we're going to start off 
with that conversation, but we 

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before we do, this episode is 
sponsored by Scratch Labs. 

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Our team all loves using their 

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products and use it on a regular
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If you used our old code, you 

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can now use this new code. 
So yeah, that's a mini win on 

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our end and on your end rather 
is what I meant. 

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But Matt, before we jump in, any
big thoughts of what it's been 

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like running in Oregon now that 
you've moved there rhythms, what

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that's been like? 
I mean, it's been, it's been 

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great. 
I mean, LA was a really great 

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spot to get all my education in 
and train and obviously meet 

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Regina, which probably probably 
the biggest thing. 

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But coming back here, it's been 
so much calmer. 

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I am, I'm not a hot weather 
person. 

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I would much rather prefer it to
be cold than hot. 

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So the temperatures have been in
the 40s in the morning, which 

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has been great, although I've 
had to kind of relearn going, 

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ah, this feels good, except for 
certain extremities like these 

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that I have to adjust some 
things and yeah, hands, yeah, 

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we'll talk about, sorry, I 
forget there was some people 

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listening, adjusting things like
getting cold hands. 

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I have very, I have fairly mild 
to moderate Renaud's syndrome, 

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which is where sometimes it's 
very difficult for me to get 

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blood flow and, and keep warmth 
in my distal extremities. 

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So it's been an interesting 
thing. 

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And then I know also winter is 
definitely coming. 

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So winter in the northwest can 
be either very wet or cold with 

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quite a bit of ice snow not as 
we only get snow every couple 

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years that actually it's worth 
talking about. 

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Like if I told Nathan what the 
regular definition of snow, he'd

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probably laugh me off this 
podcast where we would get 

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excited if we got maybe 1/4 of 
an inch and it stuck around for 

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more than an hour or so. 
So yeah, it's been, it's been 

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good. 
Air is clean, some great 

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training spots. 
Regina's really loving it. 

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Isabella, we can, we run with 
the stroller where it's can run 

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all over. 
So it's been, it's been good. 

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But I want to hear some of your 
winter weather spots or tips, so

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to speak, because I'm we're 
listening for sure. 

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Right, well, just a time and 
space. 

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It's mid-october right now when 
we're recording and here in 

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Wisconsin we've started to have 
mornings when I'm running in the

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upper 30s, most days are in the 
40s. 

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So we're starting to come down 
there. 

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And I think the way that I'm 
going to approach this is kind 

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of give my general what quote UN
quote, what I wear at each kind 

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of 20° temperature range and 
drop it down. 

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But I will also say that what 
you wear in a temperature range 

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is going to depend on what you 
are accustomed to and what your 

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body adapts to. 
Because 35° now compared to 35° 

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in March or April, for me, it's 
a totally different ball game in

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terms of what sort of stuff that
I need on me. 

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So in general, in the fall, 
going into winter, your needs 

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for more layers or more coverage
is going to be higher at a given

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temperature than in the spring. 
In the spring, the given 

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temperature is going to feel 
warmer than what it's going to 

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feel like as the temperatures 
are starting to drop. 

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And that has to do with a lot of
the physiological changes with 

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heat and cold. 
But we're not going into that 

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today. 
We're just going to stay 

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practical. 
So in these kind of low 40s 

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through the 30° weather, I am 
going out with a small beady 

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hat. 
I have a thin layered gloves, 

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long sleeve shirt and shorts. 
I don't really pull out tights 

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till later. 
None of these things that I'm 

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going to show you are like 
sponsored by us or anything. 

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It's just things that I have 
either tested for doctors 

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running and still use them over 
years or things that I have 

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bought with my own money. 
So in terms of beanies, there 

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are two that I like to wear. 
This one is from CL or CLA. 

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It's just a simple beanie cap, 
very, very thin and it's just 

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enough layer to keep that extra 
cold off. 

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And then I also use, if I can 
find should have organized this 

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better. 
Another beanie cap is the Mizuno

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Breathe Thermo. 
A lot of their stuff I really, 

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really appreciate. 
It's super thin but performs 

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really well. 
And I'll talk about how low 

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temperature wise I can go with 
this. 

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And then when it comes to the 
gloves, I have a very thin 

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fleece glove that I have. 
Also Mizuno Bree Thermo is my 

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favorite. 
I've used these gloves for the 

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past four years and have gotten 
a ton of use out of them. 

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So big fan of those. 
So again, in those 30° weather, 

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I'm still in shorts. 
I've got the long sleeve shirt 

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or a slightly thicker long 
sleeve and then a thin beanie, 

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thin gloves. 
Once I get down into the 20s is 

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when I'm going to probably first
take out my tights and there are

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two different kinds of tights 
that I utilize personally. 

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One are like super thin tights 
that are kind of more popular in

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like like a cheaper Under Armour
type tights. 

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And then there's the slightly 
thicker tight that I utilize 

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more often. 
So I bought these particular 

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tights five years ago. 
Not anything wrong with them. 

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They're from rabbit and so I use
my Rabbit tights. 

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They're that medium thickness 
and I use these everywhere from 

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the 20° weather down into the 
10s and even negatives as one of

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my layers. 
So big fan of these rabbit 

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tights and I start to take those
out anywhere from the 20s down 

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to like 10°. 
All I'm doing down the bottom 

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and is just that single layer of
tights, which is going to be 

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sufficient knowing that you're 
going to be cold for the first 

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while and then you're going to 
warm up after. 

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In terms of head and hands, I'm 
still sticking with the thin 

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layer stuff all the way down to 
like 15°. 

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And then once I get like below 
15 or 10, I add a layer for my 

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extremities and mainly my hands.
And Matt, you're just talking 

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about that. 
And one of the reasons why our 

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hands tend to get colder with 
the weather is because when 

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temperatures are cold, our body 
wants to make sure that our 

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internal organs stay warm. 
They're like, hey, what is vital

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for us to keep warm? 
And it's your core, so your 

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heart, all of your internal 
organs. 

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So it takes blood away. 
There's usually what's called 

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vasoconstriction around the 
distal parts of your body, your 

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feet, your hands. 
And then it keeps all of the 

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warmth because blood is warm, 
keeps it in your core. 

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So the thing that I utilize all 
the time are these kind of wind 

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windproof shells. 
They're very, they're not very 

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thick at all, but these things 
get me through everywhere from 

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that 15° down to like -5° as 
long as I put them as a layer 

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over my thin gloves. 
These are Gordini. 

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I bought these in college, so 
now they're like, they're like 

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13 years old. 
They're awesome. 

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Just a windproof layer, but 
they're actually windproof. 

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I've tried other quote UN quote 
windproof ones and they haven't 

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done the trick. 
So I'm a huge fan of these 

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Gordini ones. 
I tried to find them in line and

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I couldn't find this exact set. 
Believe it or not, now that 

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they're that old, but huge fan 
of having something windproof 

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for your hands. 
Just know though, that you're 

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going to get a mile in and your 
hands are going to be super 

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sweaty and you're going to have 
to shed them as a layer. 

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So have somewhere on your body 
that you're going to put them. 

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Usually what I do is I just 
stick them in the side of my 

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tights. 
So like just in the middle of my

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tights between my leg and and 
the tights. 

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So these are a huge lifesaver as
the temperature start to drop. 

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The other layer for your for my 
head that I usually have is in 

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addition to that thin layer of 
the the beanie. 

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I just have some classic old 
thick hat, I don't know, winter 

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hat with a little ball at the 
top. 

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This is my badger one go 
Badgers. 

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And this is anything. 
Anytime the temperatures are 

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below 0, I just have both on my 
beanie and my big thick one and 

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again, it's good. 
Your heads going to get warm. 

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I take off my my what is this 
called fuzzball? 

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I don't know it's. 
A quick question. 

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My, my mind is blank and I 
again, I'll just take that off 

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and throw it in my tights 
between my leg and my tights and

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just have it with me in case I 
get cold again because that's 

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kind of the nature of it. 
You know, you, you lose a lot of

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heat through your head as well. 
And so having something to try 

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to contain it is really useful, 
but you might have to go back 

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and forth and layers are key. 
The other thing that I like to 

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have, there are two more pieces 
that I like to have once the 

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temperatures are again down 
below that 15-10 degrees, one of

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them is something to cover my 
face. 

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The easiest one that I use most 
of the time is just like a a 

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buff. 
So I just take this throw it 

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around my neck and then I can 
pull it up over my face whenever

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I need to. 
This is my survivor buff. 

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We got these when server 40 came
out our friends and I we every 

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week. 
So this is I use this one a ton.

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The other thing you can buy, 
which I have, but honestly I 

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don't utilize that much, is Oh 
my gosh, balaclava. 

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So this is a kind of covers your
head like a beanie and then it 

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has a part that comes up over 
your face. 

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This is nice because the 
material over the face is a 

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little bit more breathable, so 
it doesn't just hold everything 

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in and smell super bad in 
comparison to what can happen 

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with the beanie. 
But this is another option. 

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It's just a little less 
versatile and I don't utilize it

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as much because the nice thing 
about the beanie or sorry about 

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the buff is that it can also 
serve as just like your head 

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cover as well. 
So if you just want to buy one 

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thing, a great thing to have for
the winter, the last thing that 

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I think is actually pretty 
important for dipping down to 

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those colder temperatures are 
some wind briefs. 

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So they have a windshield down 
the front side of the brief so 

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that you're cutting wind flow to
that area because again, that's 

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one of those regions that's not 
going to get as much blood flow.

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And so either get yourself some 
wind briefs or for those super 

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cold temperatures, have your 
have your tights, but then also 

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get a pair of like wind pants 
that you can use as layers. 

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So ultimately, layers are your 
friends. 

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You're going to learn for 
yourself what temperature chunks

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require what sort of coverage. 
But just be ready to know that, 

224
00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,320
hey, as things as I get into my 
run, I'm probably going to have 

225
00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,440
to shed something. 
What am I going to do with it 

226
00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,840
when I shed that layer? 
The last thing I wanted to talk 

227
00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,520
about was footwear. 
And there are two shoes that I'm

228
00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,520
super pumped to be testing out 
this winter. 

229
00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:30,760
One of them is so one of my 
favorite shoes so far this year 

230
00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:35,480
has been the Saucony Triumph 22 
and I've got the Triumph 22 GTX.

231
00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,080
The reason that I am excited 
about this shoe is for two 

232
00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,920
reasons. 
One, the GTX version is going to

233
00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:43,720
be great for those days with 
tons of slush. 

234
00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,120
So we do get a lot of snow here 
and so those really slushy days,

235
00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,840
your feet can get wet, that's 
when they get really cold when 

236
00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,360
you combine that cold and the 
wet and your wind. 

237
00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,080
And so having a Gore Tex version
is going to be great for the 

238
00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,480
days with their slush and stuff.
But if you're not, these come in

239
00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:00,840
at $180. 
The Gore Tex versions, they're 

240
00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,120
not cheap if, but if you are 
like I don't have that kind of 

241
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,120
money to get a Gore Tex version,
you can get an older pair of 

242
00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,720
shoes and just use duct tape and
duct tape over the front part of

243
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,400
your shoe. 
It's going to provide wind block

244
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,080
and it's going to prevent a 
little bit less of that water 

245
00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,520
from just seeping through a mesh
upper and can keep your feet a 

246
00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:20,480
little bit warmer. 
If you notice that your feet get

247
00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,880
colder. 
I tend to have generally warmer 

248
00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,320
feet, like it's usually not my 
thing that goes cold the most. 

249
00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,080
But if you are Gore, Tex can be 
a nice option. 

250
00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,480
But a shoe that I'm one of the 
other reasons I'm excited about 

251
00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,520
this is the type of midsole. 
So when you're running in the 

252
00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,600
real cold weather and you have 
an Eva midsole. 

253
00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:42,360
So most of the shoes that have 
been made from like probably up 

254
00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:47,120
until 20/21 for trainers have 
just been pure Eva. 

255
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,600
And so if you just think of some
of the more traditional shoes 

256
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:55,320
that Eva firms up really 
intensely in the colder weather.

257
00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,920
And so something that's nice 
about this shoes, it's a Piba 

258
00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,440
based midsole that's going to 
maintain some of its compliance 

259
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,200
in the that winter weather and 
just keeps it a little bit more 

260
00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:10,520
comfortable. 
Another shoe from Saucony is the

261
00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:15,640
Saucony Ride Trail Version 2, 
and this is an exciting shoe 

262
00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,760
because of the mid. 
Again, the midsole change, so 

263
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:22,520
now you have Power Run Plus 
here, which is again a non EBA 

264
00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:24,080
midsole. 
It's going to maintain that 

265
00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,760
compliance, but it's got a gore 
Tex outsole. 

266
00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,160
It's got a little bit more grip 
on the bottom for those more 

267
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,160
slushy, icy days. 
This is going to be a shoe that 

268
00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,280
I think is going to be fantastic
when there's stuff on the 

269
00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,160
ground, when there's not stuff 
on the ground. 

270
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:38,720
I don't go to a trail shoe in 
the winter. 

271
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,280
I just want something that's 
going to keep my feet warm 

272
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:42,800
enough or if it's going to be 
wet. 

273
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:44,840
So those are some of the shoes 
I'm excited about. 

274
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:51,440
I the trail 2 comes in at 160. 
So again, a little bit more 

275
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:56,000
expensive, but from a, there are
other options out there like 

276
00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,560
this Las Portiva shoe that's 
very winter, winter ready. 

277
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,360
This shoe is like $245.00. 
So I don't think that there's a 

278
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,680
need to go and jump and get 
something crazy like this. 

279
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,640
I think if you can just find a 
shoe that has a little bit of 

280
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:14,120
weathering for the outside of 
it, that's that's going to be 

281
00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,160
everything that you need. 
I rambled for way too long. 

282
00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,040
Matt, do you have any thoughts, 
thoughts or questions? 

283
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,360
Yeah. 
Do I need to get like do they 

284
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,440
make studded snow tires? 
Running straws? 

285
00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,960
That's a great question. 
I bet they do. 

286
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,240
Honestly, I think somebody does.
I'll. 

287
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:38,000
Have to look yeah, I think my 
thoughts on this is AI want to 

288
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,680
see some reviews your thoughts 
on the the Trail 2 and the 

289
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,360
Triumph which by the way, is it 
triumph your shoe of the. 

290
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,560
I feel like I don't know we. 
Talked enough about this, but 

291
00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,920
every time we talk about it. 
You see the it's in contention, 

292
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,280
I would say, but there's still 
time to still time to be ironed 

293
00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,240
out. 
Yeah, there's still time. 

294
00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,880
Yeah. 
I think one of the challenges 

295
00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:02,840
for a lot of the stuff that 
you're saying makes sense, 

296
00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:04,880
although the temperatures I've 
typically dealt with have been 

297
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,520
as cold, or at least I haven't 
had to deal with them as 

298
00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,160
frequently. 
Because a lot of stuff when I 

299
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,960
was in Lai would go up to the 
mountains and train up in the 

300
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,320
San Gabriel Mountains. 
And so I would be able to get 

301
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,680
out of those and not wake up in 
really cold temperatures, but I 

302
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,520
would still have to prep. 
So gloves are really important. 

303
00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,720
I have lots of gloves ready for 
this winter and already I'm 

304
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,400
having to glove up in the 
mornings, which is it's only in 

305
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,320
the 40s, right? 
So that'll get even more 

306
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,320
intense. 
I'm very much with you. 

307
00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:35,400
I use a lot of half tights for 
when things start to get in the 

308
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,640
like 40s ish. 
I do have several pairs that I 

309
00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,880
scoured eBay for once I found 
that I really liked a certain 

310
00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,040
tight which was one of it's now 
older. 

311
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,480
It was the on long tight, it's 
great. 

312
00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,560
It's got a really nice flex 
right at the knee joint. 

313
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,120
And so it's a really, really 
good flexibility which sometimes

314
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,480
with certain tights can be a 
little restrictive and 

315
00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:58,280
uncomfortable. 
And so they solve that. 

316
00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,600
Although I'm not sure if the 
newest version, which I haven't 

317
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,920
looked at has as well. 
But yeah, long tights, 

318
00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,560
definitely slowly thinking about
those as we get closer to that 

319
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,800
30° temperature. 
The other thing that I have to 

320
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:15,040
think about in the Northwest is,
you know, it may not get cold 

321
00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:19,040
enough to snow heavily, but it 
will certainly rain frequently 

322
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,040
with very close to freezing 
temperatures. 

323
00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,119
So we get a lot of ice here. 
So Richie and I are in the 

324
00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,720
process of searching for good 
waterproof gear, which luckily 

325
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,680
we've got some very good 
companies in the Oregon area 

326
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,120
that that creates a lot of that 
stuff. 

327
00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:34,840
So we're in the process of 
exploring what we might need, if

328
00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:36,800
you have any words of wisdom. 
Well, I was going to say, I 

329
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:40,360
think the two things that really
this sounds like such a 

330
00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:42,360
Wisconsin thing. 
It's not the cold, it's the wind

331
00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:45,440
that gets you or like, it's not 
the, it's not the cold, it's the

332
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,320
rain that gets you. 
And, but I think it's true in 

333
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,160
this sense, we're like the, the 
dangerous levels of cold are 

334
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,880
probably going to come when you 
don't have adequate blockage of 

335
00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,920
the wind and or the water, 
because those things from a 

336
00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:03,520
cooling aspect, bring in what's 
called convection cooling and 

337
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,720
and convection cooling cools 
things much faster and to a more

338
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,760
intense degree. 
And so having, having something 

339
00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,160
that's going to block the wind 
is going to be necessary. 

340
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,440
And even something that is like 
water resistant is going to go a

341
00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,280
long way because it's going to 
block wind and you're going to 

342
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,600
get some of that water that 
flows off of your like body is 

343
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,920
going to be super important. 
I love vests to like having a 

344
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,000
vest for kind of that core area.
And then even if it's like a 

345
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,800
little bit wet out here, if 
you're keeping the, the, the 

346
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,600
core area, you know, warm and 
then stuff for your hands, 

347
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,280
that's, I feel like if I can do 
that, I'm in a pretty good spot 

348
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,520
because I'll run in, I'll run in
-25° weather. 

349
00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:45,640
There's not ever anything too 
cold. 

350
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,360
As long as you're wearing the 
right stuff, you're going to be 

351
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:49,000
fine. 
I'm not saying that everyone 

352
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:50,840
should go out and run in that if
you don't know what you're doing

353
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,600
because that can be dangerous. 
But Speaking of dangerous, I 

354
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:56,760
have one more thing. 
But if you have the right gear, 

355
00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,120
you're going to be fine. 
If you don't have something 

356
00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:02,320
reflective, you've got to get 
something reflective. 

357
00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:05,200
If you're like me and have to 
run early in the morning, make 

358
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,440
sure that you are visible 
because it's super dark all the 

359
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,280
time. 
You know, wake up, it's dark, 

360
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,920
get out of work, it's dark. 
You never see the light of day 

361
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,400
around here. 
So I just, this is something 

362
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,040
that I bought again, like in 
college. 

363
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,520
It was just a simple reflective 
vest. 

364
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,840
This one was probably like $20. 
There's lots of options. 

365
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,600
There's more fancy ones like 
Knox Gear has these kind of 

366
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,360
flashing lights ones, and you 
can get your own attachments to 

367
00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:34,800
it, but just have something to 
make sure that you're visible. 

368
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,520
That'd be the other thing. 
I do have what it's Speaking of 

369
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,040
things you need to be careful 
of. 

370
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,120
One, I'm just thinking about 
this from having just taken the 

371
00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:44,880
sports boards recently. 
There's a lot of stuff on cold 

372
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,280
weather and hot weather. 
I would encourage, I'm curious 

373
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:48,760
to know what your thoughts on 
are on this. 

374
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,080
So I would encourage those who 
are running in colder 

375
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,720
temperatures to air on the side 
of getting too warm, because 

376
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,160
once your body temperature drops
too low and you start to get 

377
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:03,800
hypothermic. 
You once you start to warm up 

378
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,240
again, you need to stay warm 
because if you've if your body 

379
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:11,000
temperature's gotten too cold 
and you start to rewarm, but 

380
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,040
then you start to get cold, your
body's actually more susceptible

381
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,240
to a temperature drop than it 
was beforehanded each subsequent

382
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,320
time. 
So air in the side of being a 

383
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,960
little bit warm, say maybe save 
getting a little bit colder 

384
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,360
toward the end when you know you
can actually be inside and stay 

385
00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:29,080
warm for a significant time. 
So again, once your body 

386
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,720
temperature drops too low, if in
the process of rewarming, do not

387
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,000
expose yourself if you don't 
have to, to another thing that's

388
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:36,200
going to drop your body 
temperature. 

389
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,440
So air on the side of being a 
little bit warmer, I'm 

390
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:44,400
forgetting what that effect is 
called, where that second body 

391
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,200
temperature drop can be, can 
cause far greater issues and 

392
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:48,760
have and be far more 
accelerated. 

393
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,040
Yeah, I I agree with you though,
from a air on the side, it's too

394
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:53,560
warm. 
And that's why I say do layers 

395
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,760
and just be prepared to put your
clothes somewhere you can just 

396
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:58,080
that. 
And that's what's nice about 

397
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,080
tights is they can hold stuff in
them even if they don't have 

398
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:02,760
pockets. 
You can just throw gloves, you 

399
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,240
throw hats. 
You can even throw a layer and 

400
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,560
through into the back and just 
let it dangle off the backside. 

401
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,840
And then you can always put it 
back on like if you start to 

402
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,520
feel cold, layer back up. 
Have it. 

403
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:17,480
Have it out there like I've you.
You can spend hours out in 0° 

404
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:19,840
weather. 
I've done it lots of times, but 

405
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:21,120
you just have to have the right 
stuff. 

406
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,640
A running stroller has spoiled 
me so much because we'd like the

407
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,800
the Thule and the Guava both 
have this great storage at the 

408
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,800
bottom that you can just throw a
bunch of stuff in there. 

409
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,560
I can have like 2 pairs of shoes
and all this clothes and like 

410
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,080
nutrition and stuff that just 
with me. 

411
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,240
It's great. 
And those strollers have like, 

412
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,520
a, a weatherproof cover, right, 
for Isabella, Like, it would 

413
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,800
block the wind and kind of give 
her a little like, echo chamber.

414
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,880
Yeah, they have. 
So the Tuli has kind of a the 

415
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,320
the shell that comes over is 
actually like, I think it might 

416
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:51,800
be water resistance or 
waterproof. 

417
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,240
But I have for both of them, 
both the muff that you can put 

418
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,680
her in as well as waterproof 
coverings, which we've also used

419
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,640
when it's windy to and a cold to
try to break up the wind. 

420
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,560
It's very good. 
I the only thing I worry about 

421
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,960
sometimes is it gets really 
toasty in there. 

422
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,200
So I often have the yeah, I'm 
often like opposite, worried 

423
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,000
where I'm like, like, this might
be too warm. 

424
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,280
Plus, like, Regina sometimes 
freaks out because she grew up 

425
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,080
in Southern California. 
She's like, we need the muff and

426
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,040
the Super warm blanket and this 
like, really like. 

427
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,320
And I'm like, OK, now it's like 
Isabella's like losing 

428
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:24,360
consciousness. 
No, I'm just kidding. 

429
00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:24,920
But. 
She's like. 

430
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,880
She'll sleep the whole time and 
I'm like, we're running like 

431
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,280
honey. 
It's like a long run and she's 

432
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,600
just knocked out. 
Like you're just this little 

433
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:34,800
sauna. 
It's like you baking in there. 

434
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,880
That's so yeah, it's it's a 
balance of trying to like 

435
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:39,600
optimize temperature for 
Isabella. 

436
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,880
And sometimes surprisingly, I 
found a little bit less is 

437
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,400
sometimes better because kids 
tend to be a little bit better 

438
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,960
with cold than extreme hot like 
heat. 

439
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,760
LA summer, even Oregon summer 
actually was pretty warm. 

440
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,240
We're like, no, we're not 
running when it's hot for her. 

441
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,240
We'll run when it's cold. 
But when the temperatures go up 

442
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,240
really high, children and and 
older individuals have a really 

443
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,640
hard time cooling, a much harder
time cooling been warming up 

444
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,440
their body temperature. 
So that's it's. 

445
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,280
I'm always a little bit more 
worried about her getting too. 

446
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,280
Hot that's always That's why I 
love being in a place where 

447
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,920
winter is the quote UN quote 
tougher season because you can 

448
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,560
always put more on you can't, 
but you can't always take more 

449
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,240
off in the summer so I'm at. 
Least not not legally. 

450
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,160
Not legally, yeah. 
Well, and then at some point you

451
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:25,520
just literally can't. 
Yeah. 

452
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:27,920
And you're. 
Joking aside, yeah, even if you 

453
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,040
did do that, you can't. 
You oftentimes you actually 

454
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,200
cannot cool down enough with 
some of the temperatures and you

455
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,840
get you very much have some 
serious a health risk with 

456
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,480
excessive he's so. 
My father-in-law very jokingly 

457
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,720
and very lovingly when 
somebody's called he two people 

458
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,640
who he has a good relationship 
with, he's like, we'll put more 

459
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,640
on more on that's his that's his
like phrase. 

460
00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:56,600
All right, let's transition into
talking about maximally stacked 

461
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,920
shoes and what we don't know 
about it. 

462
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:03,480
So Matt, why don't you introduce
this topic and talk about what 

463
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:04,920
you've been thinking about? 
Yeah. 

464
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,840
So we, I, I kind of sprung this 
on Nathan and the group this 

465
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,600
morning. 
I've been really thinking about 

466
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:15,200
this new breed of shoes where in
the past we define most 

467
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,720
maximalist shoes as the ones 
we're not going to talk about 

468
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,160
the four foot for the moment, 
but that that has a place of 

469
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,280
where this goes into. 
But we were talking about shoes 

470
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,560
where the heel stack was going 
into like the upper 30s or like 

471
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,880
40s or low, often low 40s. 
And so that previously was a 

472
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,720
maximal stack height shoe. 
We're like, these are so tall. 

473
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,880
Like, wow, look at this. 
Wonder what the impact of these 

474
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:39,880
shoes are. 
And the two things that have 

475
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,160
changed is that a lot of the 
training shoes, not just racing 

476
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:48,440
shoes, but a lot of the typical 
training shoes, the Nimbus 

477
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,080
series, for example, is now up 
in that lower 40 range. 

478
00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:55,320
I Triumph. 
Nathan is in 40. 

479
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,120
That's 40 above. 
Yeah, I'll double. 

480
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:58,160
Check. 
Yeah. 

481
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,200
So it's like a lot of the 
traditional trainers that were, 

482
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,360
you know, a lot of really well 
cushioned are now in that low 40

483
00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:07,880
range. 
So now the definition of maximal

484
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,600
has kind of become more average 
and we now have this totally new

485
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,040
group of shoes that are moving 
into the upper 40s where you've 

486
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:20,120
got things like the Skyward X, 
for example, from Hoka or the 

487
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,440
the one of the tallest ones 
going to be the Primax Strung 2 

488
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,920
from Adidas. 
It sits at 50mm in the heel. 

489
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,760
The one, the two that I've been 
testing recently been the Brooks

490
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,800
Glycerin Mac, which is 47 
millimeters in the heel and the 

491
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,400
Pupa Magmax, which is also 47 
millimeters in the heel. 

492
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,520
And these feel very different 
than a lot of the typical 

493
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,560
trainers, even those Mac stack 
height trainers, because you 

494
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,440
really notice, like at least I 
do that I am super high off the 

495
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,080
ground and, and sometimes it can
feel, sometimes it feels good. 

496
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,600
Certain ones of them actually 
don't feel that bad. 

497
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,920
Like the Super blast is is 
definitely up higher and doesn't

498
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,640
seem to feel as awkward usually,
but a lot of them are just so 

499
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,280
tall. 
The question I've begun to ask 

500
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,920
is all right, so do we need to 
define a new does maximalism 

501
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,840
need to be redefined? 
Because now the average is now 

502
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,880
maximal. 
So what is this new area called?

503
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,600
How do we define this? 
And the follow up is, and I 

504
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,240
don't want to be negative, but 
I'm going to, I'm going to 

505
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,640
challenge Nathan because he's 
the good one at balancing me out

506
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,400
when I'm starting to go and be 
extremists. 

507
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,040
But are these really good for 
us, right? 

508
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:24,560
Like what? 
And I think the better way of 

509
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,120
phrasing that is going to be 
what are positives and negatives

510
00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:32,200
of this new height and who might
it work really well for and who 

511
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,400
might it not really work really 
well for, I think is the big 

512
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,080
question. 
And we, we have no idea just 

513
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,600
because this stuff is so new, 
there isn't really at least to 

514
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,960
our knowledge, any research. 
We'll talk about one study that 

515
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,640
we referenced frequently from 
Kumala that was done back in 

516
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,480
2019 that we were able to look 
this up beforehand going, wait, 

517
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,800
what was there? 
They were looking at how like 

518
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,120
stack height and soft and 
cushioning impacted joint 

519
00:26:57,120 --> 00:26:59,360
stiffness. 
And we're like, wait, what shoe 

520
00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:01,560
were they using to compare? 
So apparently they're repairing 

521
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,240
the Hoka Conquest, which I had 
to remember because that's from 

522
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,720
like almost 10 years ago versus 
one of the the, the younger 

523
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,960
Brooks Goat. 
Brooks goes 6 earlier version. 

524
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,240
The earlier, the younger, the 
earlier version of the Brooks 

525
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:16,680
goes because. 
They're older, actually. 

526
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,280
Yeah, older. 
So yeah. 

527
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,280
And the stack height they 
measured and they reported, 

528
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:26,080
which is really nice, was like 
4344mm in the heel for the Hoka 

529
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:31,120
Conquest. 
And it was 30, 3333 in the 

530
00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:33,320
Ghosts. 
And so even the Ghost is a 

531
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,200
higher stack right now, if I 
remember correctly. 

532
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,160
But yeah, everything has moved 
up. 

533
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,400
And I just am curious to kind of
workshop with not only Nathan, 

534
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:43,920
but all of you. 
And I really encourage you, 

535
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,160
please leave your thoughts below
because we don't know the 

536
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:47,320
answers. 
And we're just going to try to 

537
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,360
think about who instead of being
like, oh, were these bad? 

538
00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:52,560
Be like who might just work for 
who might need to be a little 

539
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:57,200
cautious with this shoe type. 
But overall, is it necessarily a

540
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,360
good thing that these things are
getting this tall? 

541
00:27:59,360 --> 00:28:05,320
And maybe what's the limit? 
Yeah, I think that study is one 

542
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,280
that's probably worth talking 
about a little bit more just 

543
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:15,880
because they're their comparator
shoes are worth understanding, 

544
00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:18,200
the findings are worth 
understanding. 

545
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,760
And then I think another piece 
of this conversation that I 

546
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,520
think is worth bringing in is 
what we've learned from 

547
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,960
minimalist research. 
And so again, when we look at 

548
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,280
the Kamala study, what they did 
is they took that Brooks Go shoe

549
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:36,000
and they compared it to the Hoka
Conquest and they, they tried to

550
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,800
measure the, they, they did a 3D
running analysis and then 

551
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:41,480
measured a couple other metrics 
as well. 

552
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,040
But basically what they found in
the 3D running analysis is that 

553
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,680
there was overall increased like
stiffness in that higher stacked

554
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,640
shoe in comparison. 
So in the Hoka Conquest in 

555
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,640
comparison to the Brooks Go 6/1 
of the findings. 

556
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,360
Matt, correct me if I'm wrong, 
but one of the findings from 

557
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,280
this study, not in where they 
pieced out where that this came 

558
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,080
from is because they saw that 
they were higher impact peaks 

559
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,000
from the Hoka Conquest, this 
higher cushion shoe that in 

560
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,120
theory is supposed to make 
things less impactful because 

561
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:13,840
we're thinking about oh, so much
impact. 

562
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,240
That's why we have running 
related injuries. 

563
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,240
That's where all these 
conversations stem from. 

564
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,040
So they're like, oh, this more 
cushion should have less impact,

565
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,240
but it had more impact than the 
Brooks Ghost and like why? 

566
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,880
And that's where the 3D analysis
brought to light that there was 

567
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,920
less joint excursion, which 
means overall increased leg 

568
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,200
stiffness. 
So I think that's a really 

569
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:38,800
interesting piece because 
intuitively on the surface, it's

570
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,680
like, oh, well, then we're not 
getting the decreased impact 

571
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,560
forces that we wanted. 
We're getting more leg 

572
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,600
stiffness. 
So from a workload standpoint, 

573
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,960
what does that mean? 
That there's more or less work 

574
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,120
done by the body and in some 
ways less, because if you have 

575
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,400
more joint excursion, that's 
more work done by the muscles 

576
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,120
that you have to do. 
If you do a squat down to 90° 

577
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,120
compared to a squat down to 45°,
just stand up and do it right 

578
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,080
now. 
The squat down to 90° is going 

579
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,080
to be harder. 
And if it's not hard for you on 

580
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:08,960
two legs, do it on one leg. 
You're going to notice that 

581
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,840
going down to 90° is harder. 
So if you have less joint 

582
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,360
excursion, that could be less 
work on your body. 

583
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,280
Another way to look at leg 
stiffness is that increased leg 

584
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,400
stiffness is often associated 
with improved running economy as

585
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,080
well because you're a more 
efficient spring. 

586
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,080
And I think that side of it is 
being leveraged within the 

587
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,240
running economy. 
Studies found with super shoes, 

588
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,440
because you have these super 
compliant, super high stacked 

589
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,560
shoes that are resulting in 
improved running economy. 

590
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,480
And I think part of that running
economy isn't even from the foam

591
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,040
itself, but it's what the foam 
does to your body's response to 

592
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,320
the shoe underneath you. 
I just kind of spiraled off a 

593
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,440
little bit, but what do you got,
Matt? 

594
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,880
Let me jump on this really quick
because this is part of my 

595
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,800
thought process. 
So, and we've talked about this 

596
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,600
before, where the idea that more
cushioning equals more 

597
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,720
protection isn't necessarily 
true because that assumes that 

598
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,080
the body is a machine and not 
adaptable. 

599
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,520
It doesn't change and doesn't 
actually react to the to the 

600
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,320
surface underneath it, right? 
It does. 

601
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,800
So we know and we've seen this 
that you have increased like 

602
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,400
stiffness, meaning you have less
joint excursion, but increased 

603
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,520
impact forces right at at that 
area, which is counterintuitive 

604
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,080
to going, wait a minute. 
I understand you might land 

605
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,880
stiffer, but like the fact that 
there is actually, how do I say 

606
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:29,200
this? 
Let me start over. 

607
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,200
So yes, there is more foam under
foot. 

608
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,040
Theoretically there's more 
protection from the dangers on 

609
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,200
the ground, right? 
Like if you have a higher stack,

610
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,560
if there's a needle or something
or a nail, there's going to be 

611
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,880
more protection from that. 
But in terms of impact forces, 

612
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,240
there's, there's two things. 
A impact forces aren't always 

613
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,240
associated with injuries as we 
are learning. 

614
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,360
There's some other nuances 
there. 

615
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:56,280
But even if they are, what we're
seeing is these super stack 

616
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,120
shoe, these higher stack height 
maximal shoes don't actually 

617
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,040
decrease them. 
They just change how they're 

618
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:03,800
applied. 
And so in my brain, what I'm 

619
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,640
hearing and just thought about 
is you are going through less 

620
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,280
joint excursion, right? 
Which is is more efficient. 

621
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,200
So you're having to use less 
muscle to control and shock 

622
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:14,400
absorb. 
So you have less joint 

623
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,200
excursion, less eccentric load 
on muscle tendons and soft 

624
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,160
tissue and passive tissues, 
which certainly makes you more 

625
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:23,920
efficient. 
It does mean there's less shock 

626
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,120
absorption. 
Instead, that same load is now 

627
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:31,320
going through potentially a 
smaller range, which in my mind 

628
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,280
certainly it's more efficient. 
I don't necessarily know if 

629
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,160
that's a good thing, because 
that means you are loading a 

630
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,440
smaller range more repeatedly. 
Is that a fair? 

631
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,120
Statement I think loading a 
smaller range for the soft 

632
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,280
tissues and also it's the other,
the other results of the study, 

633
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:48,760
I was just going back through 
them. 

634
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,200
We're all about loading rates as
well. 

635
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,640
So having less range will be a 
higher loading rate, which is 

636
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:59,840
higher impact as well. 
And impact is going to have and 

637
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:01,960
impact that's a terrible, I 
shouldn't have done that. 

638
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:07,400
But higher impact is going to 
have an effect on the type of 

639
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,360
loading through cartilage and 
bone as well. 

640
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,680
So it depends on what what 
matters. 

641
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:17,120
I like to say to the students 
that I work with who are awesome

642
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:22,200
that forces aren't bad unless 
they are something doesn't 

643
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,640
matter unless it does. 
So like for one person, having 

644
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:31,320
high impact loading rates could 
be problematic for them because 

645
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:35,640
they have already degenerated 
cartilage within their knee, 

646
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,440
which is on the surface that is 
within the range that's being 

647
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,760
loaded for them. 
In that case, that loading rate 

648
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,240
may matter for them. 
But for someone else who has no 

649
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,320
history of some sort of 
cartilage breakdown, or I'm just

650
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,360
making that up. 
I'm not saying that these things

651
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,800
lead to cartilage injury. 
That's not my point, but it 

652
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,400
might not matter for one person.
It might matter for another. 

653
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:04,040
So I think the only thing that 
we know so far is what this one 

654
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,200
study is suggesting, which from 
what I understand, has not been 

655
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,280
replicated and also not been 
done with newer foam properties.

656
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,840
This has been done with the Hoka
Conquest, which doesn't exist 

657
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:15,679
anymore. 
I think that it would be 

658
00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:18,239
interesting to have this 
replicated because all we know 

659
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,239
from this study is from this 
study, and there's a lot more to

660
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:23,440
be learned. 
Yeah. 

661
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:25,960
So you're right, it hasn't been 
done with the new foam 

662
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,080
properties. 
It also hasn't been done with 

663
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,600
this new generation of even 
higher shoes. 

664
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:36,480
It's adding anywhere from like 5
to sometimes almost 10mm on top 

665
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,440
of what they defined as that Max
stack height shoe so that things

666
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:41,600
have evolved. 
Which is what happens with 

667
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,760
research, right? 
Research takes a long time to 

668
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,040
get out. 
Like that study that we're 

669
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:47,760
talking about was published in 
2018. 

670
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,520
I guarantee a lot of what how of
of that study was actually done 

671
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,360
in like 2015, two, 1016 because 
it takes that long to get 

672
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,080
things, write it up, publish it,
go back and forth. 

673
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,640
So this is just the delay that 
we have to deal with. 

674
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,200
So whoever wants to. 
One of the other reasons why we 

675
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,680
don't know some of the answers 
to our questions is because the 

676
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:10,880
these studies look at very short
term changes. 

677
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,560
Even studies what I'm going to 
bring up one in a minute that 

678
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,640
looks at a 20 week study that's 
still pretty short term because 

679
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:22,440
we run for 40 years of our life.
We run for 60 years of our life.

680
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,400
And So what is the impact over 
60 years versus 20 weeks? 

681
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:31,120
We don't know that. 
We just know when somebody is in

682
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,440
the lab at this moment. 
We are seeing this change. 

683
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,240
And what else we have seen is 
that injury rates overall 

684
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:40,480
haven't really been changing 
even with the advancement of 

685
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,320
footwear. 
So it's probably more of a 

686
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,000
shifting of things than it is an
improvement to do to footwear. 

687
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,920
There's a lot of limitations in 
shoes, in the ability to keep us

688
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:50,720
healthy. 
So that's that's where I think 

689
00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:53,640
is interesting is again, despite
any advancement of footwear, 

690
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,920
despite obviously increases in 
performance that we've seen over

691
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,520
the last couple years, although 
that might not only be related 

692
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:04,160
to shoes as we do this, the 
women's marathon record this 

693
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,680
morning was brought down. 
To 210, which is. 

694
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:11,480
Insane to me to they get us a 
457 mile knot. 

695
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,520
It's just yeah, we're in a new 
era era here. 

696
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,120
That's that's just crazy 
watching this kind of stuff. 

697
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,640
But so performances again, among
other there's other variables 

698
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,320
influencing this obviously, but 
you know, performance 

699
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,200
increasing. 
But it's funny, injury rates 

700
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,640
aren't changing. 
But the question that I have is 

701
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,760
our injury types going to change
with not just these this super 

702
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,880
stack shoe that we're seeing, 
but also the maximal stuff where

703
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:39,440
we know that, hey, it's only 
been one study, but we know that

704
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,240
the properties of a lot of these
shoes, the foams tend to be 

705
00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:44,920
softer. 
They tend to be higher stack. 

706
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:46,680
People are probably landing 
stiffer. 

707
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,680
The other thing is just from a 
hypothesis me interpreting the 

708
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,200
study is that when you have more
material and softer from 

709
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,760
children to foot, you are going 
to land stiffer because no 

710
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,080
matter how you stabilize the 
foams, they're going to be 

711
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,240
inherently softer. 
You got less proprioceptive 

712
00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:02,600
input, which is like your body's
mechanoreceptor is going, oh, 

713
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:07,320
this is where things are. 
And so instead of having to 

714
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,600
worry about shock absorption, 
which requires more giant 

715
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,360
excursion, you have to worry 
more about stability and keeping

716
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,040
things lined up because you're 
basically on a essentially on 

717
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,560
like a soft mattress versus a 
firm surface, which is like the 

718
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:24,040
analogy I would use. 
So you're just trading things. 

719
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,480
And that means if you're going 
through less eccentric load, 

720
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,720
you're going through less like 
joint excursion, you have less 

721
00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:33,720
shock absorption, less eccentric
load, which makes me think, you 

722
00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:36,680
know, you're probably not going 
to see as many of the large 

723
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:41,160
muscular injuries like a lot of 
the quad stuff or calf stuff 

724
00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:44,080
maybe that you've seen. 
You might not see as much 

725
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,920
tendinopathy kind of stuff. 
Well, that might not be true as 

726
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:49,840
well. 
Also, because at least in the 

727
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,040
Achilles, you're seeing softer 
films that take pressure off the

728
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,440
calves. 
You're seeing rockard shoes that

729
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,640
sometimes reduce force off the 
ankle. 

730
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,040
You might see actually an 
increase of it up at the hip 

731
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,560
because we know these shoes, 
these rockard shoes, these Max 

732
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,040
tack at whose chin to the length
and strides and put more 

733
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,000
workload in your proximal 
muscles like your hip, 

734
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:11,840
definitely your deep hip 
rotator. 

735
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,280
So your your hip rotator cuff is
the analogy I would use. 

736
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,080
So those have to work harder and
unstable surfaces, but greater 

737
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,400
range, you can't get rid of 
things right. 

738
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,080
If you're going to run fast, 
you've got to move off to go 

739
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,880
through greater joint excursion.
So maybe I might see it more at 

740
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,560
like proximal stuff. 
But where I'm going with this is

741
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,160
I'm wondering if we actually are
going to see a continued 

742
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,080
increase in bone stress injuries
because you were just mentioning

743
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,040
like, yeah, you go through less 
joint excursion. 

744
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,240
There's going to be less, a 
little bit, probably less stress

745
00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:41,960
on muscles, which makes you more
economical. 

746
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:43,640
But you may not be changing 
that. 

747
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,360
They may actually be similar on 
bones. 

748
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:50,080
And the problem with bones is 
that you can't feel exactly when

749
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,320
those are sore. 
Like you can feel muscle 

750
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,400
soreness, but bone some 
especially because a lot of 

751
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,800
these shoes are allowing, or at 
least we think they're allowing 

752
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,800
us to train at much greater 
level doesn't that we are 

753
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:01,800
before. 
Like you can come back quicker. 

754
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,360
You can maintain fast for like 
I'm doing dumb stuff like doing 

755
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,240
double workouts because I still 
feel OK enough in the morning 

756
00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:11,840
because of these shoes to go do 
a second workout to do more 

757
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:13,320
mileage. 
I know a lot of elites and a lot

758
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,360
of people are doing this. 
So I'm wondering if we'll see a 

759
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:21,480
shift in the injury type to more
proximal like hamstring hip 

760
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:26,200
flexor kind of stuff, deep hip 
rotator and then potentially 

761
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,520
some increase in bone stress 
injuries where we maybe haven't 

762
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,600
seen them before because of the 
decreased joint. 

763
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,840
Yeah, that would, I'm not saying
no in my mind, but I'm saying 

764
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,360
that would feel paradoxical 
because what we do know is that 

765
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:43,080
if people transition too quickly
to a minimalist footwear, less 

766
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,440
cushioning, which would be more 
joint excursion, there's also a 

767
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,520
higher incidence of bone stress 
injuries there. 

768
00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:53,840
So maybe there's some bell curve
where there's like a a low risk 

769
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,160
zone for bone because of the 
types of forces going through. 

770
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,480
But I think that's an 
interesting concept and I. 

771
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,480
You were talking about the types
of injuries and I know that 

772
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,200
there isn't as much excursion, 
but when you're putting a tendon

773
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:12,720
through higher loading rates, 
the tendon needs to be ready for

774
00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:15,600
that. 
And so I also wonder if we might

775
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,440
see the same rates of tendon 
injuries because now they're 

776
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,920
not, they're not going through 
as much excursion, but they are 

777
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,280
having a faster loading rate 
more frequently. 

778
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,160
So that's just if you don't have
the power to maintain that, you 

779
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:33,280
may run into some issues there. 
And so that makes me wonder like

780
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,000
especially with super shoes, but
a lot of these like Mac psychic 

781
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,240
trainers, not all of them, but 
some of them do feature a plate 

782
00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:43,640
and these super foams and make 
you want to run a little faster.

783
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,200
So I'm going, you know, are 
these still tools that people 

784
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,240
need to be ready for? 
A couple of these are being 

785
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:52,480
advertised as, oh, this is a 
great option for the newer 

786
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,320
runner. 
And I kind of don't think it is.

787
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,520
I feel still think it's an 
advanced tool for a unique 

788
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:01,320
person just because the geometry
in the stack height is so 

789
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,200
different from just what most 
people are going to be walking 

790
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,160
in that not saying people 
shouldn't use them and that they

791
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,800
might not help certain people, 
but the average runner, this 

792
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,360
might not be the best place to 
start, especially when you're 

793
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,000
getting into things because the 
there's so many new variables 

794
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,880
here compared to what we do 
naturally that maybe we 

795
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:22,480
shouldn't advertise them to 
newer runners. 

796
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:24,600
Maybe we should be going. 
This is a very advanced tool 

797
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:26,800
that can definitely help you get
more miles in or be more 

798
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,240
economical, or you just might 
like it because it just feels 

799
00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:31,400
softer. 
But you should transition into 

800
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,120
this much the same way you would
transition into a minimal shoe. 

801
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,360
Not saying the risks are as high
or things like that, but going 

802
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,080
we don't know yet. 
You know, is that weird? 

803
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:43,040
Is that a? 
Is that a no? 

804
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,080
I'm I'm paranoid thing to say to
go transition into a super 

805
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,320
stacked shoe similar to how 
you'd transition into. 

806
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:51,400
Now that's that's. 
Called a question. 

807
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:53,680
I, I don't know if it's too 
paranoid. 

808
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,560
I'm trying to think if I agree 
or not. 

809
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,000
I because I'm, I don't know, I 
think it's an interesting 

810
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,600
thought I have to think about. 
That one it feels so easy like 

811
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,920
once you get over the awkward 
like good like baby deer feeling

812
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,440
of like what is this? 
Like it's easy to get tons of 

813
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,240
miles in these. 
I'm just asking myself, just 

814
00:42:11,240 --> 00:42:13,160
because it feels good, is it 
good? 

815
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:14,920
Right, I agree with that 
question. 

816
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:20,160
I think one of the things though
is something that makes running 

817
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:24,280
easier is great. 
I think that the error then is 

818
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,280
still on the user to say because
it's easier now I'm going to do 

819
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,640
more. 
If you did the same amount in 

820
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,000
something that is less total 
workload on your body, in 

821
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,320
theory, then the risk of injury 
would go down. 

822
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,560
Because if you take, you know, 2
situations, 1 is workload of 

823
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:45,080
10/1's workload of 20, but you 
do the same thing, you should 

824
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,040
have less risk of injury in the 
lower workload overall. 

825
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,520
But it's not, it's not a one to 
one ratio with these shoes 

826
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:55,200
because though you have less 
excursion, less workload, you 

827
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,440
have higher impact loading. 
So it's what again, what matters

828
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,880
to that person, You know, what 
structures and what issues are 

829
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:08,720
their weak spots and how do you 
pair a shoe to their specific 

830
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,440
needs? 
I think two things we haven't 

831
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,680
talked about. 
There's just so many thoughts in

832
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:16,200
my head, but two things we 
haven't talked about. 

833
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,600
One of them, you've referenced 
the idea of rockers and plates. 

834
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,720
I think what's super important 
to think about with all of these

835
00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:25,920
shoes, like if you hold up the 
Glycerin Max, a lot of these 

836
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,320
supermax shoes are not going to 
have a plate, but they're going 

837
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,720
to be very stiff because they 
are so much foam underneath. 

838
00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:35,720
So functionally they're bending 
stiffness is very high. 

839
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,520
I don't have like the numbers 
for the longitudinal bending 

840
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,520
stiffness, but they have to have
a rocker platform because 

841
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,200
there's so much foam. 
And that makes the importance of

842
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,360
where that rocker sits for you 
even more important. 

843
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,520
Like for me, Glycerin Max rocker
is pretty far forward. 

844
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,800
It's a late stage rocker. 
I never get along with those in 

845
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:54,600
the 1st place. 
It hasn't changed. 

846
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,040
For a shoe that doesn't have a 
plate in it or not a super foam,

847
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,280
it's hard for me to train in 
that shoe because it it doesn't 

848
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,160
line up well for me because it's
such a late stage of a rocker, 

849
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,760
whereas some of them are going 
to be much earlier. 

850
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,640
That one's yeah, the Strung 
Primax too strong, looks a 

851
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,960
little bit more gradual. 
That's definitely more gradual 

852
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:18,160
with the Magmax stuff and then 
Super Blast, really gradual. 

853
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,680
So I think rocker profile is 
another variable and whether or 

854
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,560
not it has a plate or not, you 
have to think about the rocker 

855
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:28,760
because of how thick the sole 
is. 

856
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,920
I would argue sometimes it 
almost doesn't necessarily 

857
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:33,320
matter if there's a plate or 
not. 

858
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,400
It's just because you get, I 
mean, some degree it does. 

859
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,320
But these mid soles are so thick
where they're going to be 

860
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:39,920
stiffer. 
Like if you told me that there 

861
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,200
was a plate in the Glycerin Max,
I would totally believe you 

862
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:44,080
because the sole is really 
stiff. 

863
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:45,920
That mid foot especially is 
really stiff. 

864
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,240
The magmax. 
I believe you more so if you 

865
00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:52,640
told me no, no, there isn't one,
which supposedly there isn't 

866
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:55,240
just because the the rocker 
starts early enough that it's 

867
00:44:55,240 --> 00:44:58,840
fairly smooth, but there's also 
no flexibility right Any of 

868
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,080
these shoes just because things 
get so stiff. 

869
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,040
There's so much material it just
without even a plate. 

870
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:07,880
It just it's not kind of bad. 
And that's why the Endorphin 

871
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,280
shift was such a great shoe for 
people with Hallux rigidness 

872
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,000
because it was so it was thick 
enough. 

873
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:16,440
The 40 and 36 I believe at the 
time where it just it was able 

874
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,840
to utilize the rocker and it 
wouldn't bend even though there 

875
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,240
was no plate in that shoe. 
Totally off topic for just a 

876
00:45:22,240 --> 00:45:24,000
half second. 
For those of you that are 

877
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:28,120
emailing us asking what's your 
what replacement shoe for the 

878
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:29,840
Endorphins Shift three there 
should be. 

879
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,960
We are working on this and 
banging our heads together 

880
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:34,840
because we also love that shoe 
for many different reasons. 

881
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,360
The shift series now that's been
discontinued, we've been 

882
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:39,840
talking. 
We think the Kenvara Pro might 

883
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:41,960
be an option, but we are not 
100% sold on that. 

884
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,960
So we are still working on 
trying to get you a legitimate 

885
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:47,160
answer. 
So we see the emails. 

886
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:49,640
We don't know. 
We don't know. 

887
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,440
We are thinking about this. 
We're trying to figure it out. 

888
00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:54,640
Anyway, back on topic. 
I feel like, but just let one 

889
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,080
more thing, the Skyward X 
profile is similar to that. 

890
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:01,440
The foam is just so much softer 
than what the yeah, what the 

891
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,480
shift was. 
But I think the other thing that

892
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:10,120
I, I think it's worth talking 
about is the the conversation 

893
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,680
surrounding minimalist footwear 
and drawing too many conclusions

894
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:18,840
from that as well. 
So I think that there is many 

895
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:23,280
people who are proponents of 
minimalist footwear training and

896
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:30,080
long, long term adaptations to 
to lots of different structures 

897
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,880
within the feet. 
And I mentioned earlier the 

898
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,040
difference between short term 
and long term changes. 

899
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,280
So there was a systematic review
done with people transitioning 

900
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,680
to minimalist footwear and they 
looked at like an 8 week mark 

901
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:45,360
and a twenty week mark and they 
called 20 weeks longer term and 

902
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,640
that's still so short. 
But in those twenty weeks there 

903
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,640
were no changes in things like 
bone density. 

904
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,800
The only change was in plantar 
flexor strength for people who 

905
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,880
are high mileage. 
Everything else stayed the same.

906
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,680
Running economy was the same and
bone like mineral density was 

907
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:03,880
the same. 
Changes in bone mineral density 

908
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:08,640
take again year to years. 
This is a long process. 

909
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:13,200
However, I, what I don't buy is 
the idea of if you run in 

910
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,360
maximalist shoes, your feet are 
going to get weaker. 

911
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,120
And the reason why I don't buy 
that is because you're freaking 

912
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,960
running. 
You're, you're putting tons of 

913
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,880
load through your body. 
So in comparison to somebody who

914
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,160
is sedentary and not putting 
that sort of load through their 

915
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:31,040
body and then saying somebody 
who is running 15 miles a week 

916
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,920
in maximally cushioned shoes, I 
don't think that you are saying 

917
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,760
you don't get benefits of 
loading because you're wearing 

918
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:38,960
maximalist shoes. 
They're not that powerful. 

919
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:43,120
I think that it's just if you do
only this supermax thing and 

920
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:47,080
then try to go into something 
smaller, maybe that disparity 

921
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:51,640
between what the lower stack 
really lightweight shoe and this

922
00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:53,680
high super stack stuff you've 
been training in. 

923
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,280
That might be a difference that 
can impact you as an individual 

924
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,240
in that moment. 
But I don't think long term, if 

925
00:47:59,240 --> 00:48:04,040
you're living your life in 
normal footwear or barefoot, 

926
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:05,880
whatever. 
I don't think that by training 

927
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,560
in high stack stuff you're like 
ruining your body. 

928
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:11,040
I don't buy that, if that makes 
sense. 

929
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,360
I'm going to. 
Can I jump on that and then drop

930
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:18,200
the thing that's been really 
clunking around in here? 

931
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:21,360
So yeah, I'm totally with you. 
I think a lot of the evidence 

932
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,080
that I've seen thus far has been
like, there's not, there's not 

933
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,480
differences in like basic 
measures of like foot strength, 

934
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,840
for example. 
I would argue though, that how 

935
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:31,440
your foot and how your body's 
utilized certainly different. 

936
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:33,920
Like we talked about, OK, let's 
join Excursion, that'd be great.

937
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,360
I think strength metrics and 
stuff like that are probably not

938
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:39,240
going to be that much different.
Like there's plenty people still

939
00:48:39,240 --> 00:48:43,120
running with super strong feet 
and calves in maximal stuff and 

940
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:45,000
they're putting insane amounts 
of load through there. 

941
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:46,080
And that's not going to 
decrease. 

942
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:48,480
You're going to have, if you're 
running in minimalist or 

943
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,280
barefoot like type stuff, you're
going to have to use them in 

944
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:52,880
different ways. 
You're going to get a lot more 

945
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:54,640
range of motion. 
You can probably see a lot more 

946
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:56,640
movement. 
And because of that your 

947
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,960
muscles, your ligament also are 
going to be worked differently 

948
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,360
than maybe in a maximalist shoot
of some degree. 

949
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:05,920
But I don't think you have to 
worry about weakness or like 

950
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,880
chronic disuse. 
You just have to know that if 

951
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:12,080
you want to transition back, you
need to take time because it's 

952
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:14,200
going to be a different set of 
variables. 

953
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,600
So I think it's more of the 
difference rather than more or 

954
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,120
less. 
Although I know there is some 

955
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,280
evidence like if you tend to 
walk in like barefoot type 

956
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:25,520
footwear or walk around 
barefoot, there's an increase in

957
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,640
height in size of your intrinsic
foot muscle. 

958
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:32,360
But nobody's really done a very 
good job of, of finding a way to

959
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,240
accurately objectify foot 
strength. 

960
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:37,880
So you'd be careful saying that 
because we really haven't 

961
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:39,320
measured that. 
Although studies will say 

962
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:41,080
increase foot strength and you 
read it and it's like, oh, the 

963
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,240
size increase, which hypertrophy
and strength can be similar. 

964
00:49:44,240 --> 00:49:46,480
They can also be two completely 
different things. 

965
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:48,760
Muscle size and strength can be 
similar, can be different. 

966
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:50,960
So we have to be careful with 
that. 

967
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,720
So the reason I've kind of been 
thinking about this is because 

968
00:49:54,720 --> 00:49:57,720
more and more although I and 
somebody asked me about this and

969
00:49:57,720 --> 00:50:00,160
I wrote something just recently 
about like the fact that I walk 

970
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,840
in barefoot or minimalist 
footwear constantly and don't 

971
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:06,800
typically wear maximalist stuff 
casually unless I've got 

972
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,320
something that I'm trying to 
unload or something's irritated.

973
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,920
My big question is the more I'm 
running in this stuff, I'm 

974
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:19,480
asking myself like longevity 
wise, because in my like, but 

975
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,160
the uneducated brain would say, 
oh, more cushioning, I'm going 

976
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,480
to be able to get more miles in.
I'm going to have better, I'm 

977
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:26,520
going to have longer running 
longevity. 

978
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,200
Like I'm be able to do more. 
But then the evidence saying, 

979
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:31,760
oh, we've actually got increased
internal joint lifting makes me 

980
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:35,040
go wait a minute, is this 
actually going to help us run 

981
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,480
longer? 
Because my again, my PhD was on 

982
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,600
aging and, and the and the 
masters runner and I want to be 

983
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:42,360
able to serve. 
My thing is I want to be able to

984
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:43,920
run forever. 
Yeah, you know, or at least as 

985
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:47,320
long as I'm still breathing. 
So, you know, so I it's just a 

986
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,320
question of, and we don't know 
this, we don't even know this 

987
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,560
with minimalist stuff, right? 
Because they're doing what, 20 

988
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:54,720
weeks Max? 
And like I'm asking questions 

989
00:50:54,720 --> 00:50:59,400
like what's going to happen when
I'm 6070 and am I making good 

990
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:01,520
decisions now? 
Or is just the answer that I 

991
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,080
just see you have to balance the
things they choose because you 

992
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:07,120
want a little bit of everything.
If that's an option, you know, 

993
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:11,920
continue to walk and spend and 
lift being minimal barefoot, but

994
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:13,840
then training, it's OK. 
Just you have to deal with the 

995
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,520
fact a lot of stuff is going 
that direction. 

996
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:18,600
I don't know, that's just where 
my brain is asking. 

997
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:21,000
Play soccer on it. 
You know what I mean? 

998
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,760
Like play soccer too. 
Meaning my point in that is say 

999
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,440
like do things that move you in 
multiple directions. 

1000
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:31,440
Crud. 
I had something in my mind. 

1001
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,800
Oh, the the counterpart of where
this might be beneficial long 

1002
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:39,680
term is back to my idea of 
something's not bad unless it 

1003
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,040
is. 
Let's just say we have higher 

1004
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,480
joint compressive loading that 
could potentially be a good 

1005
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:48,640
thing for your joints because 
one of those big myths out there

1006
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,880
is that running is bad for your 
knees because it's going to 

1007
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,520
break down your joints. 
But in reality, recreational 

1008
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:58,000
runners have longer term knee 
health compared to more 

1009
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:02,240
sedentary people because the 
because our cartilage is fed off

1010
00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:06,080
of loading and unloading. 
And so the it's possible that 

1011
00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:09,360
either that range of the 
intensity of loading to the 

1012
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:13,640
joints is either going to be 
equal or it that higher loading 

1013
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,640
could be better for the joint 
because it loads it a little bit

1014
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:19,920
more intensely and pushes out 
the old excess fluid and allows 

1015
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,040
new fluid in That kind of 
cyclical loading for joint 

1016
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:24,840
health could actually be 
helpful. 

1017
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:28,400
We don't know. 
It could also be just over the 

1018
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:32,880
threshold of too much. 
So I think that's another 

1019
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:35,160
potential part of it. 
Same thing with tendon health. 

1020
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:38,120
You look your study looked at a 
lot of the differences in power,

1021
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:40,080
right? 
That was kind of the big finding

1022
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,520
was power was that thing. 
And if you are having faster 

1023
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:47,600
eccentric loading of tendons, 
maybe that gives a better 

1024
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:49,640
stimulus to tendons for 
longevity. 

1025
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:52,120
Then if you had something that 
you went through slower joint 

1026
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:54,880
excursion had more shock 
absorption through the through 

1027
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:57,720
your muscles. 
So those, I mean, I think that's

1028
00:52:57,720 --> 00:53:00,800
why we don't know, but I think 
it could go either way because 

1029
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:05,760
load isn't bad unless it is. 
Like another example that for 

1030
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:08,920
that idea that people might 
cling to if they've been in the 

1031
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:14,000
exercise world for a while is 
the exercise knee extensions, 

1032
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:16,320
like a knee extension machine 
where you sit on the knee 

1033
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,640
extension and you have your 
knees bent and then you 

1034
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,040
straighten your knee out and 
push against a weight. 

1035
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:25,280
There was this a season of life 
where even when I was going 

1036
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:28,800
through my undergrad where they 
said to me and my exercise like 

1037
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:33,160
Physiology and then exercise 
prescription class, that's a bad

1038
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:35,720
exercise. 
Don't do it because it puts 

1039
00:53:35,720 --> 00:53:40,120
higher loads on the Patella when
you are when you are from 45 to 

1040
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,600
0°, not from 90 to 45. 
It's actually less than a deep 

1041
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,240
squat. 
So they would say open chain 

1042
00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:48,760
knee extensions are bad because 
of high loads. 

1043
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:51,680
What they didn't show is that 
those high loads led to injury. 

1044
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:53,160
They just knew that it was 
higher loading. 

1045
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:55,080
But higher loading could be what
you need. 

1046
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:58,040
And I think that's my point in 
this is like these shoes might 

1047
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:00,920
give us what we need or it gives
us something that we don't need.

1048
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:03,320
Or you and I might need 
different things. 

1049
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:08,200
And So what the shoes give you 
could be detrimental for me and 

1050
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:10,640
beneficial for you. 
And I think that's where my 

1051
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:12,880
brain is going, especially 
talking to you about this is is 

1052
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:16,120
less about and This is why 
talking Nathan is phenomenal 

1053
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:18,160
because, you know, sometimes I 
get really like pigeon. 

1054
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:21,160
I like like really biased and 
like help hold myself one side 

1055
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:23,360
and to try to pull myself out. 
So Nathan does a good job 

1056
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:24,880
pulling me out. 
So hopefully, like I said, 

1057
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:27,760
hopefully I can do the same for 
you, but then pulled back from 

1058
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:29,880
going, you know, these feel so 
good. 

1059
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:31,960
This is great. 
So it's fun to run in, you know,

1060
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:35,200
is this necessarily good? 
And I think it's less that kind 

1061
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:37,680
of question, but more like who 
really is going to benefit from 

1062
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,760
this and who maybe needs to be 
very cautious with this. 

1063
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,320
And that's probably goes back to
like the application of load or 

1064
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,280
even the rates of loading of 
like who really, really needs 

1065
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:47,520
this? 
And it's going to do really, 

1066
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:49,440
really well. 
And it's going to make them run 

1067
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:51,200
forever there, keep them 
healthier long. 

1068
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:55,400
Actually, probably not the shoes
so much as genetics, appropriate

1069
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:57,920
nutrition, sleep, strength 
training and smart training, 

1070
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:00,240
which are probably more 
important variables to be 

1071
00:55:00,240 --> 00:55:02,760
honest. 
But and then so who is going to 

1072
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:05,440
really benefit from this shoe 
tight versus who is not? 

1073
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:08,760
And I'm going to laugh if if 
this really just comes down to 

1074
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:10,800
who finds these comfortable? 
Who finds them not comfortable? 

1075
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:13,560
No, I, I think that's just, 
we're left with a lot of 

1076
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:15,480
questions. 
And I think it's fun and I, you 

1077
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:20,320
know, for someone in your shoes 
now done with your PhD, starting

1078
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,640
to figure out what kind of 
questions to keep asking. 

1079
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,880
You never know what's going to 
happen in your research 20 years

1080
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,400
from now. 
Like right now all my research 

1081
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:30,280
is like trying to validate all 
the tests. 

1082
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:32,600
Yeah, totally. 
Then I was like, oh, these 

1083
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,400
somehow got published and then 
the the the reviewers like do 

1084
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:37,560
you have any stuff for this? 
Like no. 

1085
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:39,760
And I'm like, OK, we'll let this
through, but you might want to 

1086
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:40,920
think about this. 
Let. 

1087
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:44,600
Me go back and validate this is 
even a worthwhile test for 

1088
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:46,600
runners that's. 
Perfect though. 

1089
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:50,280
So I'm looking at hopping and 
and trying to see whether even 

1090
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:54,840
hopping is a is a good relation,
is like has a validity for using

1091
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:57,840
with distance runners. 
And so trying to figure out 

1092
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,480
some, again, going back to 
looking at power, especially in 

1093
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:05,080
the older adult, just 'cause 
there's so much with that. 

1094
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:08,160
But yeah, somebody just 
mentioned like, hey, why aren't 

1095
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:09,640
you like thinking about footwear
research? 

1096
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:11,680
And I was like, Nah, it's too 
complicated. 

1097
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,880
That's never gonna happen. 
And then somebody's like, why? 

1098
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:17,200
I'm like, all right, I'll, I'll 
think about this. 

1099
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:19,560
You got a long. 
I'm just waiting for Nathan to 

1100
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:21,840
finish his EDD so then we can 
collaborate and do stuff. 

1101
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:23,720
So it's that's it, Yeah. 
That'd be fun. 

1102
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:25,920
I you got, we have long careers 
ahead of us. 

1103
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:30,200
We're young, we're in our 30s. 
We've got a friend of mine just 

1104
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,640
messaged me yesterday. 
He's like he, he also works at 

1105
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:35,480
the university I'm at in a 
different department. 

1106
00:56:35,720 --> 00:56:41,920
He's in natural resources and 
he's like, so if I retire when 

1107
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:47,680
I'm whatever that means, I have 
more than 30 years left here and

1108
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:51,800
I've only been here for two 
commence midlife crisis now. 

1109
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:57,520
And it's just like we have a 
long career ahead of us to ask a

1110
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:01,800
lot of fun questions. 
And I think this, this 

1111
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:05,640
conversation just shows all of 
the exciting things to look for.

1112
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:10,360
And hopefully we can find 
questions to ask and find 

1113
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:13,200
answers to that get to help 
people. 

1114
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:14,880
That'd be that'd be the fun 
thing. 

1115
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:17,920
I will we'll also say for those 
of you that have made it this 

1116
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:21,200
far, please, if you have any 
inkling, please comment below 

1117
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:25,000
because it's not just US trying 
to look for answers. 

1118
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:27,880
We are all human and so we 
really appreciate even though we

1119
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,760
don't always get to respond to 
all of them, we do appreciate 

1120
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:35,000
the comments because oftentimes 
many of you will say things that

1121
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:37,320
we hadn't thought about. 
Totally love going through and 

1122
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:40,160
I've always super excited, but I
don't know if it's just a 

1123
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:43,640
season, but people have been 
really positive recently with 

1124
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:45,080
all the comments and I was like,
am I? 

1125
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:47,880
Yeah, I'm like, is this just a 
phase where you get to like, but

1126
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:51,040
but some of the thoughts have 
been really awesome. 

1127
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:53,240
So we really appreciate it. 
So if you have a second and you 

1128
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:55,600
have a unique thought, please 
leave below because we're going 

1129
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:58,160
to learn from you too. 
And that's what this is about is

1130
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:01,600
both sharing what we're learning
and then hopefully we can take 

1131
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,360
you along for the journey and 
learn with us and try to figure 

1132
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:06,560
out what's happening because 
obviously we want to take care 

1133
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:08,600
of ourselves. 
And that's that's what one of 

1134
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:11,200
the onuses that started this 
whole thing. 

1135
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:13,960
So please come along for the 
journey and we invite you to and

1136
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:17,840
and hopefully you help us as 
much as we can try to help you 

1137
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:19,240
too. 
Absolutely. 

1138
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:21,080
And that's where we're going to 
wrap things up. 

1139
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:23,960
There's not a neat bow to tie on
this conversation. 

1140
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:27,160
Thanks for if you have, as Matt 
said, made it this far. 

1141
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:28,880
Thanks for joining with us on 
the journey. 

1142
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:30,160
Please let us know your 
thoughts. 

1143
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:33,160
I was going to encourage the 
same thing because there's a lot

1144
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:34,600
of things that we're not 
thinking about. 

1145
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,560
But what I hope you took from 
this conversation is a lot of 

1146
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:40,920
nuance that there probably isn't
one good thing. 

1147
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:45,160
But I think in my mind, there's 
usually something that's going 

1148
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:47,520
to be good for one and less good
for another. 

1149
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:51,440
And we have to try to figure 
that out in the context of each 

1150
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:54,640
individual's myriad of things 
that make up their existence as 

1151
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:56,920
a person. 
And so we'd love to hear more 

1152
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:59,760
about those thoughts. 
If you want to comment below or 

1153
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,160
reach out to us at 
doctorsofrunning@gmail.com. 

1154
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:04,520
If you want to follow what we're
doing, you can find us on 

1155
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:07,280
socials at Doctors of Running. 
If you want to keep up with this

1156
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:10,440
podcast, you can subscribe to 
the podcast itself or go to 

1157
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:13,000
YouTube. 
We release YouTube episodes on 

1158
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:15,440
Sunday. 
We release podcast episodes the 

1159
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:18,120
Wednesday before that, so the 
audio comes out before the 

1160
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:20,560
video. 
We'd love to have you join us on

1161
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:24,800
the journey and if you also have
it in you to take 15 seconds to 

1162
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:27,360
leave a review, that really 
helps launch our podcast a 

1163
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:30,480
little bit further. 
Matt, it seems like you have one

1164
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,400
more thing you want to say. 
Yeah, so for those who don't 

1165
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:35,560
know, there's usually a delay 
because we'll process it, 

1166
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:38,760
especially BJ, who is our 
phenomenal sound engineer. 

1167
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:41,040
What was, is it about two week 
turn around? 

1168
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:43,000
10 days, 10 days? 
Yeah. 

1169
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:45,600
So it's always funny if I've 
dropped some, like, really dumb 

1170
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,000
joke and then like 10 days 
later, two weeks later, it'd be 

1171
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,760
just like, wow, really had to 
let that out, huh? 

1172
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:55,680
So it's like the delayed 
gratification is very real here.

1173
00:59:55,680 --> 01:00:00,400
So I will try to drop more jokes
just to drive BJ nuts and also 

1174
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:03,480
leaning in to be a dad so. 
And as my poor George Fox do us 

1175
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:06,320
know, I'm trying a lot of new 
material on them, so they'll 

1176
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:09,560
probably have some stuff here. 
So good stuff, but thank you 

1177
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:12,160
ever for everyone for joining 
with us and we'll talk to you 

1178
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:12,600
next time.