1 00:00:06,839 --> 00:00:09,429 Hello everybody and welcome to the Doctors of Running podcast, 2 00:00:09,429 --> 00:00:12,278 where we, a group of Doctors of Physical Therapy, discuss the 3 00:00:12,278 --> 00:00:15,641 art and science of running in the stuff that we put on our 4 00:00:15,641 --> 00:00:18,021 feet. Today at the Round Table is the 5 00:00:18,021 --> 00:00:21,044 founder of Doctors of Running, Dr. Matthew Klein, Dr. David 6 00:00:21,044 --> 00:00:23,158 Salas, and myself, I am Nathan Brown. 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:28,127 We have a fun mailbag episode, and this episode, as always this 8 00:00:28,127 --> 00:00:31,018 year, is put on by Rabbit Apparel. 9 00:00:31,019 --> 00:00:33,960 We have been loving their stuff. We have another code for the 10 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,760 month of June. So if you're wanting 10% off in 11 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,840 order, you can use the code DORJUNE10, and that will give 12 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,359 you 10% off of your 1st order this month. 13 00:00:42,359 --> 00:00:44,999 Pretty solid deal to get that going. 14 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,733 David's wearing, or not David. David and I are wearing the same 15 00:00:48,733 --> 00:00:51,637 hats right now, but Matt, you are wearing one of the high 16 00:00:51,637 --> 00:00:54,538 country and I have, we have 8 weddings this year, which is 17 00:00:54,538 --> 00:00:57,030 insane. But I've actually worn my high 18 00:00:57,030 --> 00:01:00,780 country shirts to multiple weddings, uh, and it has been 19 00:01:00,780 --> 00:01:03,779 extremely appropriate for every single one of them. 20 00:01:03,780 --> 00:01:08,201 So versatile, to say the least. I actually also wore camping 2 21 00:01:08,201 --> 00:01:12,005 nights ago and then camped all night, did some like stuff out 22 00:01:12,005 --> 00:01:16,438 in the wilderness and then did a trail run the next day in it. 23 00:01:16,439 --> 00:01:18,658 It can do everything. It really is nice for that. 24 00:01:18,659 --> 00:01:21,323 I mean, like, people see me wearing this all the time, my 25 00:01:21,323 --> 00:01:23,762 students, my patients, I wear, these are pretty much all I 26 00:01:23,762 --> 00:01:26,193 wear, and they're awesome. They're great, and then I can go 27 00:01:26,193 --> 00:01:29,039 for a run right afterwards. Very cool. 28 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,638 Well, let's jump into our in-for-testing segment. 29 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,308 This is where we talk about the different gear or the different 30 00:01:35,308 --> 00:01:38,194 shoes that we've been testing and we kind of dive into it a 31 00:01:38,194 --> 00:01:40,634 little bit. David, do you want to get us 32 00:01:40,634 --> 00:01:41,518 started? Sure. 33 00:01:41,519 --> 00:01:43,198 Nothing too different in my world. 34 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,838 I've talked about it at length on the other one. 35 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:47,998 So, I don't even have them with me. 36 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:53,192 I have 2 that I have with me, but I need an Agravic 4 for 37 00:01:53,192 --> 00:01:56,998 trails, and then also the Topo, Ultra Venture 5 for trails. 38 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:01,679 Um, and then Topo Magnify 6 as well. 39 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,605 I already have miles on these. So review probably will be 40 00:02:03,605 --> 00:02:06,420 coming out at some point here. And then the new one that's 41 00:02:06,420 --> 00:02:09,118 going to be added is the Hoka Mach 7. 42 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,338 So that one just came in. Oh, yeah. 43 00:02:11,340 --> 00:02:14,486 So it feels pretty nice, you know, just kind of lightweight 44 00:02:14,486 --> 00:02:16,365 EVA trainer. It's that's kind of what it's 45 00:02:16,365 --> 00:02:19,026 always been. I will say that the, uh, the 46 00:02:19,026 --> 00:02:22,198 upper fits a little, it's still a little bit snug. 47 00:02:22,199 --> 00:02:24,646 It's a little bit short, but it's better than the previous 48 00:02:24,646 --> 00:02:27,310 version where I just felt my toes were really jammed and it 49 00:02:27,310 --> 00:02:29,009 was way too snug. So the upper is definitely 50 00:02:29,009 --> 00:02:31,473 opened up a little bit. I also like that the midsole 51 00:02:31,473 --> 00:02:34,498 feels just a tad softer and bouncier than the old one. 52 00:02:34,500 --> 00:02:37,637 The one was fine. It was always weird that like, 53 00:02:37,637 --> 00:02:40,450 it's such, even though the stack height measurement's actually 54 00:02:40,450 --> 00:02:43,444 pretty tall on foot. It does not feel like a tall 55 00:02:43,444 --> 00:02:46,930 shoe and not something I would be able to do long runs in now, 56 00:02:46,930 --> 00:02:49,669 but it's been fine for that, both previous version and this 57 00:02:49,669 --> 00:02:52,290 one. But it's just nice to have me a 58 00:02:52,290 --> 00:02:54,658 touch, touch softer and still be snappy underfoot. 59 00:02:54,659 --> 00:02:58,020 Yeah, I agree. Um, and it's good to see the fit 60 00:02:58,020 --> 00:03:00,586 opened up a little bit too. I know you guys have struggled a 61 00:03:00,586 --> 00:03:02,818 little bit with that forefoot width and kind of how it tapers. 62 00:03:02,819 --> 00:03:05,431 It's better than the previous version, but it's still like, 63 00:03:05,431 --> 00:03:07,258 it's still a little snug up there. 64 00:03:07,259 --> 00:03:09,959 Thankfully, I'm not super sensitive to it. 65 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,230 I mean, I think I'll be fine. But yeah, for those needing 66 00:03:13,230 --> 00:03:16,800 that, it's not the shoe. But there is something called 67 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,558 the topo cyclone that exists. Yep. 68 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,019 Right? absolutely. 69 00:03:22,020 --> 00:03:25,126 Cool, Matt, what about you? I mean, I've got a good amount 70 00:03:25,126 --> 00:03:28,079 of stuff. So I am riding on a pretty cool 71 00:03:28,079 --> 00:03:31,943 event where I just ran my 1st actually just realized my 1st 72 00:03:31,943 --> 00:03:35,485 official mile, because on the track, I've only run 1500s, and 73 00:03:35,485 --> 00:03:40,315 it's the 1st time I have worn track spikes in a race in over a 74 00:03:40,315 --> 00:03:44,179 decade, and I was terrified because I thought I was going to 75 00:03:44,179 --> 00:03:47,399 rupture my calf or Achilles tendon, and it did fine. 76 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,345 Now... Do you actually like actually 77 00:03:49,345 --> 00:03:51,899 afraid of that or like it was gonna make you hurt? 78 00:03:51,900 --> 00:03:55,210 No, I was legit. I legitimately was worried that 79 00:03:55,210 --> 00:03:58,318 I was going to strain my calf. Strain your calf. 80 00:03:58,319 --> 00:04:01,673 Not tear it in half. Yeah, not territory. about 8 81 00:04:01,673 --> 00:04:04,859 years ago together. Were you spiked up for that? 82 00:04:04,860 --> 00:04:08,519 I don't think I was. I can't remember. 83 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,581 I think I was wearing flats. I don't think I was wearing 84 00:04:12,581 --> 00:04:14,459 spikes. But I do remember that. 85 00:04:14,460 --> 00:04:16,019 But yeah, I don't think I was wearing spikes. 86 00:04:16,019 --> 00:04:17,639 I think you were, you were wearing spikes. 87 00:04:17,639 --> 00:04:20,385 Yeah, I was wearing Avantes. Yeah, I don't remember what I 88 00:04:20,385 --> 00:04:22,289 was wearing. Yeah, I think you're wearing 89 00:04:22,289 --> 00:04:24,719 Skechers flats, I think, actually, and I don't think 90 00:04:24,719 --> 00:04:26,039 about it. Yeah, I think I was. 91 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,445 Yeah. But so 1st time wearing spikes, 92 00:04:28,445 --> 00:04:32,618 uh, was doing, did a mile race, uh, with the stroller, and had 93 00:04:32,618 --> 00:04:37,419 to run in lane 3 the whole time, and uh, ran a 5:16, so was 94 00:04:37,419 --> 00:04:40,859 really happy with that. But the biggest thing was the 95 00:04:40,859 --> 00:04:44,819 last, probably 2 weeks, I slowly started getting into these, and 96 00:04:44,819 --> 00:04:48,419 for the listeners, this is the Hoka Cielo X3 LD. 97 00:04:48,420 --> 00:04:51,683 And the reason I I hadn't been able to run in this, mostly 98 00:04:51,683 --> 00:04:53,439 because I'd been really struggling with Achilles 99 00:04:53,439 --> 00:04:55,939 tendinopathy and low drop shoes just weren't working and things 100 00:04:55,939 --> 00:04:58,619 have been good enough. I've been able to run in these. 101 00:04:58,620 --> 00:05:00,299 And my Achilles hasn't bothered me. 102 00:05:00,300 --> 00:05:02,921 My calves have been sore. And what is unique about this 103 00:05:02,921 --> 00:05:06,125 spike and the reason I was interested in it, I think it's 104 00:05:06,125 --> 00:05:08,793 one of the few spikes that actually provide some medial 105 00:05:08,793 --> 00:05:11,021 stability. The plate is actually higher on 106 00:05:11,021 --> 00:05:13,400 the medial side. You can actually see it than on 107 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,282 the lateral. This blue piece of material is 108 00:05:15,282 --> 00:05:18,246 actually a little bit firmer than the rest of the foam here. 109 00:05:18,246 --> 00:05:21,457 And Valerie and all the other people at Hoka, can tell me if 110 00:05:21,457 --> 00:05:24,419 I'm wrong about that or not, but that's what it feels like. 111 00:05:24,420 --> 00:05:27,479 And this, it actually feels immediately stable. 112 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,499 And so I don't think I can handle this for a long. 113 00:05:31,500 --> 00:05:33,838 I could I could not do a 10 K and spikes anymore. 114 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,645 I would take a while to get used to, but I think for people that 115 00:05:36,645 --> 00:05:38,699 want that. This is a great option. 116 00:05:38,699 --> 00:05:41,639 It's one of the few ones out there, and I can confirm it is 117 00:05:41,639 --> 00:05:43,079 very stable. I haven't had any issues. 118 00:05:43,079 --> 00:05:48,240 I have done 2 workouts, probably close to 3 to 5 miles each, 119 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:52,607 fully in spikes, and didn't have any problem, other than calves 120 00:05:52,607 --> 00:05:54,687 being sore. And so that's been a problem 121 00:05:54,687 --> 00:05:56,399 with like really unstable heels in the past. 122 00:05:56,399 --> 00:05:59,459 So, yeah. This did really good. 123 00:05:59,459 --> 00:06:01,379 Anyway, other stuff really quick. 124 00:06:01,379 --> 00:06:04,739 I've got the new Saucony Kinvara 16, which has been great. 125 00:06:04,740 --> 00:06:07,499 Ironically, was wearing that at the meat and been like, huh. 126 00:06:07,500 --> 00:06:11,042 Ironically, when last time I, like, when I started wearing the 127 00:06:11,042 --> 00:06:15,218 Kinvara 15, 16 years ago, that's like close to what I was wearing 128 00:06:15,218 --> 00:06:17,358 spikes. So great, great update, a little 129 00:06:17,358 --> 00:06:20,985 bit more open in the forefoot, just a very different shoe for 130 00:06:20,985 --> 00:06:23,099 those who don't want max stack height. 131 00:06:23,100 --> 00:06:24,659 There is still moderate, stack-height shoes. 132 00:06:24,660 --> 00:06:27,484 I think it's like 29 millimeters in the heel, which is not 133 00:06:27,484 --> 00:06:29,699 common. Really nice, flexible. 134 00:06:29,699 --> 00:06:31,960 Definitely, transitions will also be careful for someone like 135 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,972 me, this works great, but there is some lateral bias to the 136 00:06:34,972 --> 00:06:37,733 midfoot because it's just the cutout here and a filled in 137 00:06:37,733 --> 00:06:39,239 midfoot, which works great for me. 138 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:40,499 It may not work well for other people. 139 00:06:40,500 --> 00:06:42,119 So to see how Andrea does with that. 140 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:47,159 Um, I have 100 miles on the puma deviate nitro pure. 141 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,500 And that was an accident. I was actually supposed to have 142 00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:50,759 a lot more miles than other shoes. 143 00:06:50,759 --> 00:06:52,859 And I've just really enjoyed this. 144 00:06:52,860 --> 00:06:55,199 It is a, and I don't mean this in a bad way. 145 00:06:55,199 --> 00:06:58,139 It's a basic shoe. It's not fancy. 146 00:06:58,139 --> 00:07:00,659 It takes a little bit of time to break in. 147 00:07:00,660 --> 00:07:02,519 And once it does, it's really nice. 148 00:07:02,519 --> 00:07:05,149 It's not the fastest shoe, although I've done workouts in 149 00:07:05,149 --> 00:07:08,039 it, but it is really good at being decent at everything. 150 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,739 It can pick up the pace. It can do long runs, easy runs. 151 00:07:10,740 --> 00:07:14,757 What I like best about the issue is that A, Puma actually 152 00:07:14,757 --> 00:07:18,431 centered their heel bevel and this split design does allow the 153 00:07:18,431 --> 00:07:22,105 lateral aspect of the of the heel to collapse a little 154 00:07:22,105 --> 00:07:24,109 separately. So once it breaks in, really 155 00:07:24,109 --> 00:07:27,020 smooth heel transition for me. Obviously, low volume and snug 156 00:07:27,020 --> 00:07:30,359 it breaks in, but and, oh, this is the left shoe. 157 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,953 And it's not torn up. And for the, again, for the 158 00:07:33,953 --> 00:07:36,143 listeners, because we know, again, and I want to clarify 159 00:07:36,143 --> 00:07:38,333 this, the puma deviate nitro pure, because we've had some 160 00:07:38,333 --> 00:07:40,961 comments going, please tell us the name of the shoe that you're 161 00:07:40,961 --> 00:07:43,319 talking about. Deviate Pure Nitro. 162 00:07:43,319 --> 00:07:47,039 Sorry, deviate. David told you that. 163 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,120 Sorry. The yeah, the outsole's still 164 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:52,860 attacked. I haven't ripped anything up, 165 00:07:52,860 --> 00:07:55,363 and I think that's because they extended it, and there's this 166 00:07:55,363 --> 00:07:58,092 small piece that's kind of like that's not, length, but I think 167 00:07:58,092 --> 00:08:00,599 they moved it forward enough that I'm just not hitting it. 168 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,195 Last, but not least, haven't done an official run in this 169 00:08:04,195 --> 00:08:07,455 shoe, but I've been wearing it constantly and jogging around 170 00:08:07,455 --> 00:08:11,183 the house in it. I have the Brooks, um, uh, 171 00:08:11,183 --> 00:08:14,819 Hyperion Elite 6, which I am very excited for. 172 00:08:14,819 --> 00:08:18,629 I'm also very excited that I went with a size 10.5 versus a 173 00:08:18,629 --> 00:08:22,438 10 just because all Brooke stuff is fitting me just to have size 174 00:08:22,438 --> 00:08:25,661 short, so thanks, Nathan, for helping get that to happen, but 175 00:08:25,661 --> 00:08:29,070 it feels very nice on foot. Haven't done a workout yet in 176 00:08:29,070 --> 00:08:32,091 it, but really excited about the midfoot being a little bit 177 00:08:32,091 --> 00:08:34,678 filled in. The upper's really good. 178 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:36,359 Again, a half-size up. I'm glad I did that. 179 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,058 And then really nice bouncy midsole. 180 00:08:39,058 --> 00:08:43,019 Like it feels a lot better than the last version. 181 00:08:43,019 --> 00:08:46,808 And again, maybe that's the half size up, but it's not wobbly on 182 00:08:46,808 --> 00:08:48,906 foot. BJ's got more miles than me and 183 00:08:48,906 --> 00:08:52,259 I'm just really excited to run in this and see how it goes. 184 00:08:52,259 --> 00:08:54,937 And knowing me, I'm going to take the heel off and just like 185 00:08:54,937 --> 00:08:56,579 have a second, but no, I'm just kidding. 186 00:08:56,580 --> 00:08:58,979 You haven't destroyed a shoe in a while. 187 00:08:58,980 --> 00:09:01,019 I think some of it's the stroller. 188 00:09:01,019 --> 00:09:05,024 Yeah, I wonder if you're you're, you're, biomechanics are 189 00:09:05,024 --> 00:09:09,456 changing a bit. They might be, but I've been 190 00:09:09,456 --> 00:09:14,099 running almost full-time with that stroller for 2.5 years. 191 00:09:14,100 --> 00:09:17,278 Those changes can take a while. Yeah. 192 00:09:17,279 --> 00:09:21,327 Anyway. Unless you want me to talk about 193 00:09:21,327 --> 00:09:22,558 the Saucony Omni again. I done. 194 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,259 Great. I've got a couple. 195 00:09:25,259 --> 00:09:32,579 Um, so I will start with the Topo Ultra Wild 3 Plus. 196 00:09:32,580 --> 00:09:35,775 So there's 2 versions that are basically the same, the 3 and 197 00:09:35,775 --> 00:09:38,790 then the 3 plus. The only difference is that the 198 00:09:38,790 --> 00:09:42,467 3 plus has a Vibram outsole. So that's the one that I have 199 00:09:42,467 --> 00:09:44,285 been wearing. And I've talked about other 200 00:09:44,285 --> 00:09:47,459 trail shoes that I've loved this year and just like the underfoot 201 00:09:47,459 --> 00:09:51,155 feel has been really good in some of those, but I also have a 202 00:09:51,155 --> 00:09:54,323 spot when I'm looking for trail stuff, like the one that's going 203 00:09:54,323 --> 00:09:57,755 to be my hiker and my runner, like not one that's looking for 204 00:09:57,755 --> 00:10:00,659 performance running, but it's like, I could do anything on the 205 00:10:00,659 --> 00:10:04,091 trails, and like this would be the one that would take the cake 206 00:10:04,091 --> 00:10:07,368 for me. It's basically on the, you know, 207 00:10:07,368 --> 00:10:11,525 the Experience Flow road shoe. It's like the same silhouette as 208 00:10:11,525 --> 00:10:14,013 that. And you have the updated P 35 209 00:10:14,013 --> 00:10:17,739 midsole, which just makes it a little bit softer, so it feels 210 00:10:17,739 --> 00:10:20,004 really good. And because it's, I think the 211 00:10:20,004 --> 00:10:23,841 stack is in the like mid 30s down to 29. one of the 212 00:10:23,841 --> 00:10:26,038 4-millimeter-drop shoe, like 33/29, I think. 213 00:10:26,039 --> 00:10:30,108 And what I like about that on the trails, especially I took it 214 00:10:30,108 --> 00:10:34,487 out on the Ice Age Trail, which is like a 1000 mile trail in 215 00:10:34,487 --> 00:10:36,359 Wisconsin, really kind of small rocks. 216 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:40,303 So it just makes it wobbly. And being a little bit lower, 217 00:10:40,303 --> 00:10:42,599 makes it more stable in that aspect. 218 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,432 I'm a little less having to be a little less conscious of rolling 219 00:10:45,432 --> 00:10:47,819 my ankle and I didn't, which I do all the time. 220 00:10:47,820 --> 00:10:50,699 So that's another win for for this shoe. 221 00:10:50,700 --> 00:10:53,668 But this was the one I took on our camping trip, wore it all 222 00:10:53,668 --> 00:10:56,424 for all the camping stuff, all the hiking we did, and then out 223 00:10:56,424 --> 00:11:00,396 for the run as well. So really great shoe, a really 224 00:11:00,396 --> 00:11:03,918 nice fit for Ultra. It's got the classic wider toe 225 00:11:03,918 --> 00:11:07,337 box, but it doesn't have any low volume issues at kind of the 226 00:11:07,337 --> 00:11:09,178 transition between the midfoot and the forefoot. 227 00:11:09,179 --> 00:11:11,979 So this is a fantastic shoe. You're looking for that shoe 228 00:11:11,979 --> 00:11:14,099 that could do a bunch of hiking, but also run. 229 00:11:14,100 --> 00:11:17,003 It's good. It's got some flexibility in the 230 00:11:17,003 --> 00:11:20,336 forefoot as well if you prefer that over like a rocker 231 00:11:20,336 --> 00:11:22,739 platform. So great, great shoe. 232 00:11:22,740 --> 00:11:28,718 The other shoe I want to talk about is one that I have been 233 00:11:28,718 --> 00:11:33,407 absolutely loving to test, and that is the, uh, new Topo 234 00:11:33,407 --> 00:11:36,881 Spectre 3. This shoe went over like a 235 00:11:36,881 --> 00:11:41,247 complete overhaul from version two, both in geometry and in 236 00:11:41,247 --> 00:11:44,856 foam compound. So Topo is really trying to 237 00:11:44,856 --> 00:11:48,461 change their performance stuff. And, you know, at this point, 238 00:11:48,461 --> 00:11:52,019 you have, I think this is the debut of the rev foam. 239 00:11:52,019 --> 00:11:56,765 And so it's an ATPU. It's much softer than a lot of 240 00:11:56,765 --> 00:12:01,224 the other topo stuff, like it does not compare to, Oh my gosh, 241 00:12:01,224 --> 00:12:02,939 what is their other... Cyclone? 242 00:12:02,940 --> 00:12:07,019 PEBA-powered or? Yeah, they're P-back stuff. 243 00:12:07,019 --> 00:12:11,092 softer than that. Um, and it just, it feels really 244 00:12:11,092 --> 00:12:14,263 good. It's also really improved the 245 00:12:14,263 --> 00:12:17,787 heel geometry. So like Spectre 2 had a crazy 246 00:12:17,787 --> 00:12:20,102 heel bevel. I couldn't even run in it and 247 00:12:20,102 --> 00:12:23,939 get miles because it was so bad. Um, and bad meaning. 248 00:12:23,940 --> 00:12:28,208 It was really posterior flare, jetted out the back and created 249 00:12:28,208 --> 00:12:31,199 a really clunky transition. Now they've beveled it quite a 250 00:12:31,199 --> 00:12:33,119 bit and they brought in that posterior flare. 251 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,861 So it's much better for that. Uh, when you put the shoe on, 252 00:12:36,861 --> 00:12:41,103 it, like, I don't know if it was the same for y'all if you've 253 00:12:41,103 --> 00:12:44,729 tested this one yet, but it, like, you feel like you're going 254 00:12:44,729 --> 00:12:47,749 to fall forward over the midfoot, and it feels really 255 00:12:47,749 --> 00:12:49,259 propulsive from a geometry perspective. 256 00:12:49,259 --> 00:12:52,558 Yes, the foam is is kind of softer and has that pop to it. 257 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,793 But I think that the really propulsive, speedy part is the 258 00:12:55,793 --> 00:12:59,321 geometry more than it is, the actual foam, and you get a 259 00:12:59,321 --> 00:13:01,379 little bit of both in that interaction. 260 00:13:01,379 --> 00:13:04,657 But it's also non-plated, I think that I would be surprised 261 00:13:04,657 --> 00:13:08,829 if we ever see a plate from Topo that would kind of go against 262 00:13:08,829 --> 00:13:12,400 their ethos, but they were able to create a good, you know, 263 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,370 stiff enough geometry, um, because of the amount of foam 264 00:13:15,370 --> 00:13:18,785 here through the forefoot. So it runs on that rocker foam 265 00:13:18,785 --> 00:13:22,283 in a really kind of abrupt transition onto the forefoot, I 266 00:13:22,283 --> 00:13:25,687 would say. And part of that is, if you are 267 00:13:25,687 --> 00:13:29,834 able to watch, you can see that there's this cutout that comes 268 00:13:29,834 --> 00:13:33,284 through the midfoot, and then there's this bigger section for 269 00:13:33,284 --> 00:13:37,079 the forefoot, and it's hard to probably see, but, um, there's 270 00:13:37,079 --> 00:13:41,564 not a full ground contact out so on the medial and lateral side 271 00:13:41,564 --> 00:13:44,856 of the shoe. And so you kind of sink into the 272 00:13:44,856 --> 00:13:47,949 midfoot, and then you land on that forefoot, and it propulses 273 00:13:47,949 --> 00:13:50,478 you forward. And it's just really fun to run 274 00:13:50,478 --> 00:13:52,607 in. I've done a little bit of speed 275 00:13:52,607 --> 00:13:55,173 work in it. I've done some longer efforts at 276 00:13:55,173 --> 00:13:58,418 daily pace and it really smoothens out as I get into 277 00:13:58,418 --> 00:14:00,778 rhythm, but I've just been a huge fan. 278 00:14:00,779 --> 00:14:04,199 I think that because of this lack of contact on the median 279 00:14:04,199 --> 00:14:07,334 lateral sides, it can be a little wobbly from a stability 280 00:14:07,334 --> 00:14:09,445 standpoint. I've felt my stabilizing muscles 281 00:14:09,445 --> 00:14:14,179 and my ankle have to work a little bit, so definitely in the 282 00:14:14,179 --> 00:14:17,819 neutral category, not a stable neutral shoe, but really fun. 283 00:14:17,820 --> 00:14:21,236 Like, I think this is the most fun topo shoe that I've ever ran 284 00:14:21,236 --> 00:14:23,160 in. I'm excited to get more miles on 285 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:24,899 it. Have y'all tested this out yet? 286 00:14:24,899 --> 00:14:30,119 Yeah, yeah, it's nice. I've done just one run. 287 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,298 It's been, I think it was a 5 or 6 miler with some strides. 288 00:14:33,299 --> 00:14:35,719 It was nice. Yeah, I could pick up the pace 289 00:14:35,719 --> 00:14:38,004 pretty well. It doesn't, bottoms out a little 290 00:14:38,004 --> 00:14:41,826 bit, like going fast fast, but I feel like for like marathon type 291 00:14:41,826 --> 00:14:42,778 efforts. Yeah, it's good. 292 00:14:42,779 --> 00:14:45,698 Yeah. So I've done about 25, 30 miles 293 00:14:45,698 --> 00:14:49,588 and mine got my testing done. I was just waiting for us to be 294 00:14:49,588 --> 00:14:52,839 able to talk about it, but I've, Nathan, I really agree all the 295 00:14:52,839 --> 00:14:54,839 things that you said, really nice bouncy foam. 296 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,379 The rocker in the forefoot is pretty aggressive where it feels 297 00:14:57,379 --> 00:15:00,369 like it's almost like you hit the midfoot and then it kind of 298 00:15:00,369 --> 00:15:02,798 spoons. And so that actually kind of was 299 00:15:02,798 --> 00:15:06,252 nice for me because it almost creates like this almost this 300 00:15:06,252 --> 00:15:09,075 metatarsal lift sensation, but it's still not quite stable 301 00:15:09,075 --> 00:15:13,144 enough for me to use on like longer runs, but outside of that 302 00:15:13,144 --> 00:15:17,213 easy runs, did a lot of workouts in it, and really enjoyed having 303 00:15:17,213 --> 00:15:20,278 an option outside the cycle. Cyclone 3 is a good, good shoe. 304 00:15:20,279 --> 00:15:21,719 is just much closer to the ground. 305 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,965 It was nice to have kind of more super esque, not like a not 306 00:15:24,965 --> 00:15:27,737 plated, not crazy, but still snappy shoe to be able to use 307 00:15:27,737 --> 00:15:29,699 for workouts. David, again, he's right. 308 00:15:29,700 --> 00:15:33,451 Not the fastest shoot out there, but really good and something 309 00:15:33,451 --> 00:15:36,178 that I actually, the ATP responds super well. 310 00:15:36,179 --> 00:15:39,857 So I actually enjoyed it quite a bit for a variety of track 311 00:15:39,857 --> 00:15:42,764 paces. Um, so yeah, it's nice to have, 312 00:15:42,764 --> 00:15:46,507 see, to, that, that changing that posterior flare, it's like 313 00:15:46,507 --> 00:15:49,499 one of the biggest game of the year. 314 00:15:49,500 --> 00:15:51,658 Yeah, really improve that dramatically. 315 00:15:51,659 --> 00:15:54,050 And I know that takes a lot to go through to like change 316 00:15:54,050 --> 00:15:56,278 something like that. So it's really good. 317 00:15:56,279 --> 00:15:58,267 Yeah. For people that want that wide 318 00:15:58,267 --> 00:16:00,538 toe box for that, you know, that sensation. 319 00:16:00,539 --> 00:16:04,188 It's a unique shoe for sure. I was just going to say it's got 320 00:16:04,188 --> 00:16:06,418 topo fit. So it's great. 321 00:16:06,419 --> 00:16:10,869 Locks in super well, really wide for the toe box, good volume 322 00:16:10,869 --> 00:16:14,930 amount, but not sloppy anywhere. I think weight, it's under 8 323 00:16:14,930 --> 00:16:18,334 ounces. I think mine's like 7.6, 7.7 324 00:16:18,334 --> 00:16:22,139 ounces. I think women's is low 6s. 325 00:16:22,139 --> 00:16:26,999 So it's a lighter shoe as well, and it, it, it can move. 326 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,784 I haven't done super fast stuff in it just because I'm not 327 00:16:29,784 --> 00:16:32,880 really doing any. I done strides in it and it felt 328 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,580 great for strides, but not sustained hard efforts, more 329 00:16:35,580 --> 00:16:38,880 just like really quick stuff, but I've liked it for steady 330 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,278 state kind of pacing and harder longer runs. 331 00:16:41,279 --> 00:16:44,566 Yep, there's not a lot of options out there when you look 332 00:16:44,566 --> 00:16:47,619 at like faster stuff. I think the Ultra Fly Carbon 2 333 00:16:47,619 --> 00:16:50,979 is probably the only other option, and that one is a 0 334 00:16:50,979 --> 00:16:54,619 drop, so that and plus stiff, so that can make it feel even 335 00:16:54,619 --> 00:16:58,457 lower. That, that Spectre is 5 336 00:16:58,457 --> 00:17:01,190 millimeter drop. So it just provides something 337 00:17:01,190 --> 00:17:04,596 super unique that I think a lot of people could use for longer 338 00:17:04,596 --> 00:17:06,797 races. If you have this ankle stability 339 00:17:06,797 --> 00:17:10,021 and you wanted that wide toe box, snappy responsive shoe, 340 00:17:10,021 --> 00:17:12,598 that actually might be an option for you. 341 00:17:12,598 --> 00:17:16,031 So, yeah, it felt good to run fast in, especially as David 342 00:17:16,031 --> 00:17:18,759 said over like longer effort. So I think it's a very unique 343 00:17:18,759 --> 00:17:22,086 thing on this market. Would you say this is comparable 344 00:17:22,086 --> 00:17:27,538 to an unplated endorphin speed? Kind of comparison? 345 00:17:27,539 --> 00:17:30,224 I would say no. I think it's more. 346 00:17:30,224 --> 00:17:32,278 Because a lot of people use that for the marathon. 347 00:17:32,279 --> 00:17:35,538 That's the main reason why I'm asking because you're saying 348 00:17:35,538 --> 00:17:38,485 like racing flat for... Yeah, I think the geometry is 349 00:17:38,485 --> 00:17:40,045 different. Yeah, geometry is going to be 350 00:17:40,045 --> 00:17:42,832 different. And the foam to me is much 351 00:17:42,832 --> 00:17:45,475 different. I felt like the PWRRUN PB and 352 00:17:45,475 --> 00:17:49,366 the speed this last year was much softer and kind of more 353 00:17:49,366 --> 00:17:53,254 relaxed, whereas the ATPU foam is just, as we've seen with a 354 00:17:53,254 --> 00:17:56,818 lot of what Saucony has done this year, way more responsive. 355 00:17:56,819 --> 00:18:00,604 So personally. I would say in in category of 356 00:18:00,604 --> 00:18:05,219 what people would use it for. Same category, how it feels is 357 00:18:05,219 --> 00:18:10,679 not this, not quite the same. A little bit more poppy. 358 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,318 More poppy than the endorphin speed. 359 00:18:13,319 --> 00:18:15,058 Yeah. Yeah. 360 00:18:15,059 --> 00:18:18,239 I would say a great example because I just want to bring 361 00:18:18,239 --> 00:18:21,683 this shoe up because I have like almost 200 miles in this thing, 362 00:18:21,683 --> 00:18:25,115 and I can't stop running in it, is the Saucony Omni ST versus 363 00:18:25,115 --> 00:18:28,019 the hurricane, like the Omni is, it's the full-length PWRRUN PB. 364 00:18:28,019 --> 00:18:32,369 It's really nice, wonderful long run shoe, great for easy runs 365 00:18:32,369 --> 00:18:34,739 for recovery runs, stuff like that. 366 00:18:34,740 --> 00:18:39,060 Great to have a kind of super foam stability shoe, but it's 367 00:18:39,060 --> 00:18:41,578 not nearly as responsive as the hurricane. 368 00:18:41,579 --> 00:18:47,699 Even with the bottom layer EVA, that top layer of ATPU foam. 369 00:18:47,700 --> 00:18:48,959 Gosh, what's that? am I blanking? 370 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:50,939 Somebody help me. PWRRUN. 371 00:18:50,940 --> 00:18:53,338 It's just, it's just different. It's just more responsive. 372 00:18:53,339 --> 00:18:56,098 Yeah, or is it PWRRUN Lux in the Hurricane? 373 00:18:56,099 --> 00:18:58,439 It is incredible. Incredible. 374 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,950 Yeah, PWRRUN and the other ones. What I was actually going to 375 00:19:01,950 --> 00:19:06,435 say, the shoes are so different, but in terms of what the foam 376 00:19:06,435 --> 00:19:09,538 responsiveness feels like, it feels like the Paramount Max. 377 00:19:09,539 --> 00:19:14,679 It's like it... Yeah, like the type of the type 378 00:19:14,679 --> 00:19:17,897 of rebound. the it's a totally different foam because it's way 379 00:19:17,897 --> 00:19:18,619 heavier. Yeah. 380 00:19:18,619 --> 00:19:24,326 But I think that's the foam feel in a light package, which, just 381 00:19:24,326 --> 00:19:27,838 from the compliance and resilience side of it. 382 00:19:27,839 --> 00:19:32,926 I felt like the NeoVista from Mizuno is closer in field to the 383 00:19:32,926 --> 00:19:37,227 Paramount Max in terms of like the bounce, like compliance to 384 00:19:37,227 --> 00:19:39,824 bounce. I didn't feel like it was super 385 00:19:39,824 --> 00:19:42,719 compliant. I find Neovista kind of flat. 386 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,618 I've been doing a couple long runs in it. don't know. 387 00:19:46,619 --> 00:19:50,159 We also tend not to agree on how soft things feel, David. 388 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,151 This is true. Yeah, I didn't, because I don't, 389 00:19:52,151 --> 00:19:53,759 I don't find the Spectre feeling that soft. 390 00:19:53,759 --> 00:19:57,359 I get I appreciate the snappy and bounciness, but I don't feel 391 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,959 like it's like the Paramount Max has so much give to it. 392 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:02,999 Like, I don't feel that in the Spectre. 393 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,009 Probably the big question. So I don't know if we can talk 394 00:20:06,009 --> 00:20:08,509 about these yet. So this might get it edited, but 395 00:20:08,509 --> 00:20:10,259 probably the biggest question for you too. 396 00:20:10,259 --> 00:20:14,639 So the Bondi X 2 thoughts on. No, just kidding. 397 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,393 Sorry. I was like, is that even like in 398 00:20:17,393 --> 00:20:19,618 existence? don't even think that's. 399 00:20:19,619 --> 00:20:21,778 Kleins is creating hot takes out of the air. 400 00:20:21,779 --> 00:20:24,419 I have never even once heard of the existence of that. 401 00:20:24,420 --> 00:20:27,874 These 2 argued about the Bondi X about whether it was soft or 402 00:20:27,874 --> 00:20:29,400 not. And I was like, well, that's not 403 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,235 Ritz been a long time now, shoe. Clifton Edge? 404 00:20:31,235 --> 00:20:33,818 Was it the one with the crazy posterior flare? 405 00:20:33,818 --> 00:20:36,959 Oh my gosh. I hated that shoes so much. 406 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,959 Yeah, it was like, let's take the 10, lets take the Hoka 407 00:20:40,959 --> 00:20:43,318 TenNine, and let's make it to the masses. 408 00:20:43,319 --> 00:20:46,537 Call it the Clifton Edge. That did not last long for a 409 00:20:46,537 --> 00:20:48,899 reason. It came and went awful. 410 00:20:48,900 --> 00:20:52,679 Why? Why would you do that? 411 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,407 Unless you have like... Accelerate, you downhill? 412 00:20:56,407 --> 00:20:58,439 posteriorly. Maybe it helps. 413 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,078 Yeah, maybe that's fair. Anyway. 414 00:21:01,079 --> 00:21:04,571 I remember, I remember, you know, talking to their 415 00:21:04,571 --> 00:21:08,450 development team and talking about some of their, you know, 416 00:21:08,450 --> 00:21:11,159 you can make any concept sound right. 417 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,559 Oh, yeah, yeah. And the concept was, you know, 418 00:21:13,559 --> 00:21:16,439 the idea of a, you know, when a car crashes, there's that 419 00:21:16,439 --> 00:21:17,879 accordion that slows down the impact. 420 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,690 The idea was, you know, when you're running downhill, you 421 00:21:20,690 --> 00:21:23,219 want this thing that will accordion, slow down impact 422 00:21:23,219 --> 00:21:25,739 forces, and that'll be better for your downhill running. 423 00:21:25,740 --> 00:21:29,903 What was missed was the impact on the moment around the ankle 424 00:21:29,903 --> 00:21:31,979 that really shoots you into plantarflexion. 425 00:21:31,980 --> 00:21:38,459 So it's, there's theory is cool. until it's not. 426 00:21:38,460 --> 00:21:42,086 Are we going to get up on EX 2 or is that, is that, are you 427 00:21:42,086 --> 00:21:43,618 being serious? Wait, wait, wait. 428 00:21:43,619 --> 00:21:46,123 I don't know. I've never heard of its 429 00:21:46,123 --> 00:21:47,999 existence once. I don't, I just... 430 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,459 I highly doubt it's coming again if they haven't made it again. 431 00:21:50,460 --> 00:21:54,778 My guess is like Skyward X is probably the direction of that. 432 00:21:54,779 --> 00:21:57,899 Yeah, where it's like the premium plated trainer. 433 00:21:57,900 --> 00:22:00,959 Do you both have that shoe? Yeah, yeah. 434 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,239 I ran it at the end of the day. Yeah, it's nice. 435 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,479 And is it is it softer or not? I don't have to... 436 00:22:06,479 --> 00:22:09,358 I literally said Skyward X 2 is Coop. 437 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,159 Do you do you remember that message? 438 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,798 Yes. You say that about everything. 439 00:22:13,799 --> 00:22:17,818 I did not say about everything. Almost everything. 440 00:22:17,819 --> 00:22:20,639 All right. Well, let's move us forward. 441 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,159 That's our in for testing segment, as always. 442 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,379 That is fueled by Scratch Labs. If you want to try out any of 443 00:22:27,379 --> 00:22:28,739 their in-run hydration, nutrition stuff. 444 00:22:28,740 --> 00:22:31,979 I'm almost done with my mango and it's making me sad. 445 00:22:31,980 --> 00:22:34,139 You can use the code DOCTORSOFRUNNING. 446 00:22:34,140 --> 00:22:35,818 That will get you 20% off your 1st order. 447 00:22:35,819 --> 00:22:40,078 We are now going to move into a mailbag. 448 00:22:40,079 --> 00:22:43,255 So this is where we kind of sift through all the emails that we 449 00:22:43,255 --> 00:22:45,924 get from you all. Thank you again for sending them 450 00:22:45,924 --> 00:22:49,446 and we pick a bunch of questions to talk about as launching 451 00:22:49,446 --> 00:22:51,176 points. Sometimes we end up talking 452 00:22:51,176 --> 00:22:53,759 about medical conditions, but this is not medical advice. 453 00:22:53,759 --> 00:22:57,129 We're just talking through how we think about these problems 454 00:22:57,129 --> 00:23:01,173 from a way of education and thinking about it, if you have 455 00:23:01,173 --> 00:23:03,719 something actually going on. Go see physical therapist who 456 00:23:03,719 --> 00:23:05,879 works with runners and they can help you out. 457 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:10,199 So this 1st question is from Oliver, and Oliver asked this. 458 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,062 What are your current favorite stable neutral shoes available 459 00:23:13,062 --> 00:23:15,900 now? Can be older models and or this 460 00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:19,199 year's models. I recommend your work to all my 461 00:23:19,199 --> 00:23:22,879 athletes and their parents, high school track and cross country, 462 00:23:22,879 --> 00:23:25,911 and college running club coach. Considering their student 463 00:23:25,911 --> 00:23:29,484 status, parent time and budgeting, any list with current 464 00:23:29,484 --> 00:23:33,454 shoes and or their closest previous versions still in the 465 00:23:33,454 --> 00:23:36,969 market would be great. So we're looking for stable 466 00:23:36,969 --> 00:23:39,490 neutral category. Kind of sounds almost like 467 00:23:39,490 --> 00:23:43,689 budget stable neutral category and ones that you could get on a 468 00:23:43,689 --> 00:23:45,659 deal. So what comes to mind for y'all? 469 00:23:45,660 --> 00:23:49,019 I'm going to throw the Mach X or not the Mach X. 470 00:23:49,019 --> 00:23:50,818 I mean, the Mach X3 actually is one of them. 471 00:23:50,819 --> 00:23:53,699 It's a very good stable neutral shoe, if you want to go faster. 472 00:23:53,700 --> 00:23:56,459 The Mach 7 is actually really solid. 473 00:23:56,460 --> 00:23:59,860 I think version 6 was firm version 7 takes that and has the 474 00:23:59,860 --> 00:24:02,470 side walls that makes it just slightly stable neutral enough 475 00:24:02,470 --> 00:24:07,079 for me to be able to use it. That's probably one of the big 476 00:24:07,079 --> 00:24:11,322 ones out of the bat. I literally have a list of these 477 00:24:11,322 --> 00:24:14,652 on my phone. I was going to do like a top 5 478 00:24:14,652 --> 00:24:17,057 perfor- like stable neutral performance trainers and I can 479 00:24:17,057 --> 00:24:19,882 only remember one at the moment. So I'm gonna be quiet as I go 480 00:24:19,882 --> 00:24:22,800 think about this. Yeah, I think when... what's on 481 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,635 your mind? If you want something higher 482 00:24:24,635 --> 00:24:27,179 stack and rocker, but still kind of stable neutral. 483 00:24:27,180 --> 00:24:28,798 You got the tier Maverick version one. 484 00:24:28,799 --> 00:24:30,118 I feel like that one works pretty well. 485 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,469 Um, and then decent price point. I think taking any older version 486 00:24:34,469 --> 00:24:36,944 of the Saucony Ride, you could probably find that on sale, 487 00:24:36,944 --> 00:24:38,519 those ones have always done pretty well. 488 00:24:38,519 --> 00:24:41,338 Current one, no, but the other ones, yes. 489 00:24:41,339 --> 00:24:43,470 Yeah, absolutely. If they can handle the 490 00:24:43,470 --> 00:24:45,358 zero-drop, the Magnify is not a bad option either. 491 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,934 You know, kind of firmer base, wide sole flare, like, wide 492 00:24:48,934 --> 00:24:51,555 platform. A lot of the shoes nowadays have 493 00:24:51,555 --> 00:24:54,179 kind of been built on platforms like that. 494 00:24:54,180 --> 00:24:56,219 As long as you avoid the softer foams. 495 00:24:56,220 --> 00:24:59,459 Um, the Azura is a great option as well. 496 00:24:59,460 --> 00:25:02,159 Um, yeah, clients holding it up over there. 497 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,560 Endorphin Azura, 150. Uh, Zura, Azura would probably 498 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,538 be one of my top choices if you need like medial stuff. 499 00:25:09,539 --> 00:25:13,091 This is almost a stability shoe but not qualified as that just 500 00:25:13,091 --> 00:25:15,753 because some of the geometry stuff, but excellent, excellent, 501 00:25:15,753 --> 00:25:17,818 excellent along the with the Mach 7. 502 00:25:17,819 --> 00:25:20,915 Yeah, I'm leaning that way, you know, and I start thinking of 503 00:25:20,915 --> 00:25:24,011 the lineups of like, let's say the Nike or any of those 504 00:25:24,011 --> 00:25:27,107 companies, like a lot of those are like kind of true neutrals 505 00:25:27,107 --> 00:25:30,461 when you look at the pegs or the Vomeros and, um, the regular 506 00:25:30,461 --> 00:25:32,519 bomero actually might not be the worst option. 507 00:25:32,519 --> 00:25:35,159 But, yep, if you can get on a deal. 508 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,648 I would, I would say, uh, again, training shoe, a little less 509 00:25:39,648 --> 00:25:43,762 versatile, but the new Nimbus Nimbus 28 is very, very stable 510 00:25:43,762 --> 00:25:48,239 neutral, I will say enough that I really prefer it to the... 511 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,499 I'm, yeah, I'm having a relapse. Sorry. 512 00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:55,151 You've been doing good with it for a while. 513 00:25:55,151 --> 00:25:57,660 I was. And then I just relapsed during 514 00:25:57,660 --> 00:25:59,578 that comparison video with version 32. 515 00:25:59,579 --> 00:26:01,061 I'd say... Basic... 516 00:26:01,061 --> 00:26:05,759 Well, still isn't a bad option. Like Novablast 5 and 4. 517 00:26:05,759 --> 00:26:07,979 You don't think that's stable in the trial at all? 518 00:26:07,980 --> 00:26:10,199 Really? I think it's fine. 519 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:15,413 I think version 5 was borderline 4 was just with the because of 520 00:26:15,413 --> 00:26:19,019 the accelerated transition, which is back now with six. 521 00:26:19,019 --> 00:26:22,062 If you have any frontal plane problems, it's gonna accelerate 522 00:26:22,062 --> 00:26:25,798 you in that direction. So, but 5 didn't have that. 523 00:26:25,799 --> 00:26:29,147 And so I'd say five, yeah, it gets that borderline, but some 524 00:26:29,147 --> 00:26:33,358 of the other ones no. Why not Break's Ghost? 525 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:38,165 Brooks Ghost, yes. Aggressively so, so much that 526 00:26:38,165 --> 00:26:41,939 actually bugged me a little bit. So yeah, I would agree. 527 00:26:41,940 --> 00:26:45,598 Brooks Ghost, the new one is version 17, great. 528 00:26:45,599 --> 00:26:50,573 Yeah, not affordable. Um, but the on Cloud Monster 3 529 00:26:50,573 --> 00:26:54,267 hyper and the... That was the Hyper LS. 530 00:26:54,267 --> 00:26:58,416 Both, like, insanely stable neutral, but also very, very, 531 00:26:58,416 --> 00:27:01,043 very expensive. Like, so my top stable neutral 532 00:27:01,043 --> 00:27:03,598 shoes of the year, but very high price point. 533 00:27:03,599 --> 00:27:08,983 In the max stack category. I think a New Balance 880, if 534 00:27:08,983 --> 00:27:12,959 you can get that. Yeah, the firm refresh calm, 535 00:27:12,959 --> 00:27:15,058 tall. Not fast, not fast. 536 00:27:15,059 --> 00:27:17,098 But it's a training shoe. It's meant to be a trainer. 537 00:27:17,099 --> 00:27:19,919 They didn't ask for fast. Very good. 538 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,625 Yeah, very stable neutral. Yeah, I was in the max stack 539 00:27:23,625 --> 00:27:25,309 category. I was thinking about the Magnify 540 00:27:25,309 --> 00:27:27,850 Max from Puma as well. That's got a really wide 541 00:27:27,850 --> 00:27:28,919 platform. It's not too soft. 542 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,702 And I just had a running, like someone I run coach, just bought 543 00:27:33,702 --> 00:27:37,739 the older version for a pretty, pretty solid price right now. 544 00:27:37,740 --> 00:27:40,019 Um, so that was another one on my mind. 545 00:27:40,019 --> 00:27:42,838 I know you've been running the in the pure. 546 00:27:42,839 --> 00:27:45,358 Would you categorize that as stable neutral? 547 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,660 For me, I put it in just neutral category, but I know you've 548 00:27:47,660 --> 00:27:50,685 gotten a lot of miles on it. One of the things that I said, 549 00:27:50,685 --> 00:27:54,510 and I wonder, I don't know if my 100 mile review would be up by 550 00:27:54,510 --> 00:27:57,479 now, but the, it's almost there. It's not quite. 551 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,612 It's got the wider midfoot. It's got some sidewalls in in 552 00:28:00,612 --> 00:28:04,524 the midfoot as well. It just took a while for that to 553 00:28:04,524 --> 00:28:08,099 kick in. It's close, but not a little 554 00:28:08,099 --> 00:28:10,546 squirrely. Just a bit off, which will make 555 00:28:10,546 --> 00:28:13,075 it more versatile for more people because not obviously, 556 00:28:13,075 --> 00:28:16,438 you know, I whine about this all the time, but not everybody 557 00:28:16,438 --> 00:28:18,958 needs stability or stable interest off, even though I 558 00:28:18,958 --> 00:28:22,235 think it's great. Um, so I can understand why they 559 00:28:22,235 --> 00:28:25,536 went that direction. But we'll have to see what the 560 00:28:25,536 --> 00:28:27,798 forever. we haven't tested this. The Forever Run Nitro 3 is 561 00:28:27,798 --> 00:28:30,298 supposed to be out in a couple months or at least an ounce. 562 00:28:30,299 --> 00:28:32,999 I haven't tried it so I can say something. 563 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,174 Cool. I'm curious what the, um, update 564 00:28:36,174 --> 00:28:38,879 to the Clifton is going to be like. 565 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,202 I don't know if they're making any changes to the midsole, but 566 00:28:42,202 --> 00:28:45,790 I feel like version 9 felt like stable neutral because it was a 567 00:28:45,790 --> 00:28:48,778 little bit firmer. And then 10 got really soft. 568 00:28:48,779 --> 00:28:52,923 So I don't put it in the stable neutral as much as the previous 569 00:28:52,923 --> 00:28:55,075 ones. But that's why I think the Mach 570 00:28:55,075 --> 00:28:58,520 7 is or the Mach series is the better for the stable neutral 571 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,170 side because they're just a little bit firmer, gives that 572 00:29:01,170 --> 00:29:05,363 little bit of structure to it. Hey, can I bring it for the 573 00:29:05,363 --> 00:29:09,838 Brooks Hyperion 2? I mean, it's so long. 574 00:29:09,839 --> 00:29:12,118 So long ago. I know. 575 00:29:12,119 --> 00:29:14,399 RIP. I just wanted to put a plug in. 576 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,759 bring it back What were you going to say, Matt? 577 00:29:17,759 --> 00:29:21,284 Um, you know, technically based on the spec, this is supposed to 578 00:29:21,284 --> 00:29:24,507 be a stability shoe, but also like keeps getting categories as 579 00:29:24,507 --> 00:29:27,400 like almost stable, neutral. The on Cloud Runner... 580 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,838 I pulled it up right now, but Max. 581 00:29:30,839 --> 00:29:32,759 Okay, Cloud Runner Max. What is that? 582 00:29:32,759 --> 00:29:35,399 It's not out yet, but I remember talking about this at the 583 00:29:35,399 --> 00:29:37,613 beginning of year. And I haven't, we haven't heard 584 00:29:37,613 --> 00:29:39,419 anything about it, and I'm really excited. 585 00:29:39,420 --> 00:29:43,607 It's supposed to be like a top layer of their, their height, 586 00:29:43,607 --> 00:29:45,899 like, their Helion HF. Sorry, it's off topic. 587 00:29:45,900 --> 00:29:50,159 High school, I'm really tired. Go look sorry. out yet. 588 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,047 I think my favorite thing today is like there has just been a 589 00:29:54,047 --> 00:29:57,030 constant theme in these first, whatever, half hour of mapping 590 00:29:57,030 --> 00:30:00,308 like future shoes that either may never exist or that he's 591 00:30:00,308 --> 00:30:04,199 hoping he gets to test. Out of totally out of context. 592 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,739 I am so tired. is not a bad option. 593 00:30:07,740 --> 00:30:10,798 Yeah, it is technically a mild stability shoot. 594 00:30:10,799 --> 00:30:14,056 It is, but it may not. Yeah, it doesn't necessarily 595 00:30:14,056 --> 00:30:16,499 feel like that, but it is stable. 596 00:30:16,500 --> 00:30:18,239 So another option that may work very well. 597 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,459 But and that's not high stack, which is really nice. 598 00:30:20,460 --> 00:30:21,659 But that's where I was going with that. 599 00:30:21,660 --> 00:30:25,199 We're going to jump to our next to our next question here. 600 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,159 So this is from Morgan and Morgan says this. 601 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,922 I'm a fairly young, late 20s, but have what you might call 602 00:30:33,922 --> 00:30:36,298 early stage bunions on both feet. 603 00:30:36,299 --> 00:30:39,577 The spacing between my toes is still fairly, quote, normal, and 604 00:30:39,577 --> 00:30:43,153 I don't have significant pain, but my rage of motion with my 605 00:30:43,153 --> 00:30:47,054 big toes is already limited. My PT has said that it looks 606 00:30:47,054 --> 00:30:50,838 like I compensate by rolling outward onto my other toes which 607 00:30:50,838 --> 00:30:53,971 have full range of motion. I've noticed that sometimes 608 00:30:53,971 --> 00:30:58,207 after being on my feet for long periods of time, the tendons, 609 00:30:58,207 --> 00:31:02,090 they put a question mark, not sure if it's tendons, underneath 610 00:31:02,090 --> 00:31:06,315 my smaller toes are sometimes irritated or a bit painful for a 611 00:31:06,315 --> 00:31:08,647 while afterwards. And I wonder if this might be 612 00:31:08,647 --> 00:31:10,290 related. Do you have any recommendations 613 00:31:10,290 --> 00:31:13,672 for things to keep in mind when looking at running and walking 614 00:31:13,672 --> 00:31:15,358 shoes for someone in my situation? 615 00:31:15,359 --> 00:31:19,004 I'm aware Bunions may worsen with age, with constrictive 616 00:31:19,004 --> 00:31:22,325 shoes, et cetera. And I have a lot of life left in 617 00:31:22,325 --> 00:31:24,169 me. I like to maintain my quality of 618 00:31:24,169 --> 00:31:26,459 life and my ability to run as long as possible. 619 00:31:26,460 --> 00:31:29,399 Before we get to recommendations. 620 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,306 Can we talk about what Bunyan's are 1st and just kind of all get 621 00:31:33,306 --> 00:31:35,306 on the same page for that? Yep. 622 00:31:35,306 --> 00:31:38,884 The official term that you'll hear in the literature on, like, 623 00:31:38,884 --> 00:31:41,159 in medical stuff is called Hallux Valgus. 624 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,239 It's where the big toe, or the 1st toe, is deviating. 625 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,459 Actually laterally, if you look at things the right way, so it's 626 00:31:49,459 --> 00:31:52,618 deviating outwards toward away from midline from the body. 627 00:31:52,619 --> 00:31:55,499 And there's a variety of reasons that, because this can happen. 628 00:31:55,500 --> 00:31:57,719 I used to tell patients that this wasn't hereditary. 629 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:03,216 Um, there is a, um, what's the term I'm looking for statistics, 630 00:32:03,216 --> 00:32:06,879 um, there's a correlation, which doesn't necessarily mean 631 00:32:06,879 --> 00:32:10,078 causation between like family and family history. 632 00:32:10,079 --> 00:32:12,179 We don't necessarily know exactly what that means. 633 00:32:12,180 --> 00:32:16,716 Exact causes can vary all over the place, just because it can 634 00:32:16,716 --> 00:32:20,496 be, there's been some evidence that potentially might be a 635 00:32:20,496 --> 00:32:24,276 nerve, uh, like irritation of the abductor hallucis, which is 636 00:32:24,276 --> 00:32:27,298 the muscle that pulls the big tormol immediately. 637 00:32:27,299 --> 00:32:29,934 Maybe that's not working. And so the adductor hallucis may 638 00:32:29,934 --> 00:32:32,452 be kind of takes over. There's possibility that the 639 00:32:32,452 --> 00:32:35,657 joint is stiffening up so the body goes over the inner side 640 00:32:35,657 --> 00:32:37,259 and it gets pushed more laterally. 641 00:32:37,259 --> 00:32:40,739 We really we really don't know. There's a variety of things that 642 00:32:40,739 --> 00:32:43,247 can happen. Um, there's some thought that 643 00:32:43,247 --> 00:32:47,177 maybe narrow toe boxes may contribute to this because they 644 00:32:47,177 --> 00:32:51,893 tend to push the big toes, um, lateral, but that doesn't happen 645 00:32:51,893 --> 00:32:55,031 for everyone. So this is usually 646 00:32:55,031 --> 00:32:57,365 multifactorial. We may not always know the 647 00:32:57,365 --> 00:33:00,857 answer is why, but a frequent reason, it can, it's very common 648 00:33:00,857 --> 00:33:03,476 to also happen with Hallux rigidus, where you're also 649 00:33:03,476 --> 00:33:05,219 losing mobility of the first toe. 650 00:33:05,220 --> 00:33:08,190 So instead of being able to extend, it starts to deviate 651 00:33:08,190 --> 00:33:10,620 lateral. So lots of different things that 652 00:33:10,620 --> 00:33:13,313 can happen. And then when you get gout on 653 00:33:13,313 --> 00:33:16,689 top of that, if you're one of those rare people, I'm really 654 00:33:16,689 --> 00:33:19,499 sorry, that sucks, but not an uncommon combo, but yeah. 655 00:33:19,500 --> 00:33:22,558 Yeah, when you said rare, I've seen it a few times. 656 00:33:22,559 --> 00:33:25,881 Yeah, because like, I don't know, right is the right word, 657 00:33:25,881 --> 00:33:28,292 but... I think one thing that I would 658 00:33:28,292 --> 00:33:31,904 add is, you know, Matt talked about the position of the toe 659 00:33:31,904 --> 00:33:35,516 where it moves out towards the big toe moves out towards the 660 00:33:35,516 --> 00:33:38,099 other ones. And I think that there's a 661 00:33:38,099 --> 00:33:40,739 difference between, um, kind of structural appearance and 662 00:33:40,739 --> 00:33:42,719 pathology, like having that positioning doesn't 663 00:33:42,719 --> 00:33:45,029 automatically mean you're going to have pain. 664 00:33:45,029 --> 00:33:48,659 And, you know, I love what Morgan is talking about, what 665 00:33:48,659 --> 00:33:52,289 they're doing now is just paying attention to the other factors 666 00:33:52,289 --> 00:33:55,943 that matter more. So, like, my wife has Hallux 667 00:33:55,943 --> 00:33:59,939 Abducto Valgus, like that's what her toes look like. 668 00:33:59,940 --> 00:34:03,636 And, uh, she's not losing any range of motion, but she is 669 00:34:03,636 --> 00:34:07,323 having pain and we actually did an evaluation last week with her 670 00:34:07,323 --> 00:34:11,313 in, in the clinic and we were looking at what was causing some 671 00:34:11,313 --> 00:34:14,998 of her discomfort and it didn't have anything to do with that. 672 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:16,318 It was something different in that region. 673 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,400 So don't assume that it's like, oh, my bunions are causing me 674 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,987 pain, quote unquote. It could be something else 675 00:34:22,987 --> 00:34:25,804 that's maybe related to that positioning, but there's a 676 00:34:25,804 --> 00:34:29,560 little bit more nuance in working with a PT is super wise, 677 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,264 which is what you're doing here. And we'll also add, sometimes 678 00:34:33,264 --> 00:34:36,550 people classically will add, like, there, you can sometimes, 679 00:34:36,550 --> 00:34:39,830 not everyone, actually, with this positioning, you can also 680 00:34:39,830 --> 00:34:44,926 get a large bony growth on the inner side or medial side of the 681 00:34:44,926 --> 00:34:47,569 1st metatarsophalangeal joint. That doesn't always happen with 682 00:34:47,569 --> 00:34:50,013 everybody. However, often it will still be 683 00:34:50,013 --> 00:34:52,498 called a Bunyan or what have you. 684 00:34:52,500 --> 00:34:54,418 Right. Great. 685 00:34:54,420 --> 00:34:57,898 So let's go into this recommendations for footwear. 686 00:34:57,900 --> 00:35:01,424 Someone in her position. She not only has this 687 00:35:01,424 --> 00:35:05,219 positioning, but she has some sort of limitation in the amount 688 00:35:05,219 --> 00:35:09,358 of that big toe to extend, so we call that Hallux limitus. 689 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,646 And so she, and we, she just does not have the ability to 690 00:35:12,646 --> 00:35:14,003 extend. That's super important for 691 00:35:14,003 --> 00:35:16,158 running. And so I think that's actually 692 00:35:16,158 --> 00:35:18,658 more of a consideration than the Bunions themselves. 693 00:35:18,659 --> 00:35:21,058 So what do y'all think in this situation? 694 00:35:21,059 --> 00:35:22,078 What do you think about for shoes? 695 00:35:22,079 --> 00:35:25,247 I actually think, to be honest with you, that the extension 696 00:35:25,247 --> 00:35:28,127 problem might be kind of the greater driver, even though 697 00:35:28,127 --> 00:35:31,583 visually you can see the the big toe moving laterally, that made 698 00:35:31,583 --> 00:35:35,039 me immediately think going, yeah, you need a shoe that has a 699 00:35:35,039 --> 00:35:37,628 forefoot rocker, because the reason why, as Nathan mentioned, 700 00:35:37,628 --> 00:35:40,498 that being able to have good toe extensions so important. 701 00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:43,155 That's part of a natural mechanism, called the forefoot 702 00:35:43,155 --> 00:35:46,400 rocker, that because that kind of just, if you have adequate 703 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,348 motion, as you go over the forefoot, it just extends 704 00:35:49,348 --> 00:35:52,582 somewhat passively and you kind of tension things up, it allows 705 00:35:52,582 --> 00:35:55,522 you, your center of massive transition over your foot with 706 00:35:55,522 --> 00:35:57,874 less energy, that's really important for running gait. 707 00:35:57,874 --> 00:36:01,696 If that's not there, it puts a lot more pressure on the plantar 708 00:36:01,696 --> 00:36:04,636 fascia, the calves, everything else, try to get over that 709 00:36:04,636 --> 00:36:07,556 longer lever arms. So the solution to that is the 710 00:36:07,556 --> 00:36:10,466 shoe with the fairly large, um, forefoot rocker, the only 711 00:36:10,466 --> 00:36:13,958 challenge is that a lot of shoes also have what's called toe 712 00:36:13,958 --> 00:36:16,577 spring, and these are 2 different components that are 713 00:36:16,577 --> 00:36:20,360 oftentimes come together, is you need to find a shoe that has a 714 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,978 large forefoot rocker that keeps your toes in neutral. 715 00:36:22,980 --> 00:36:27,110 And off the top of my head, maybe you 2 can think of some 716 00:36:27,110 --> 00:36:30,650 ideas, but that's going to help reduce the pivoting of motion to 717 00:36:30,650 --> 00:36:33,598 the lateral aspect of the foot, which is actually smart. 718 00:36:33,599 --> 00:36:35,959 Like she's adaptable. She's getting force away from 719 00:36:35,959 --> 00:36:38,038 something that she can't where she can't move through. 720 00:36:38,039 --> 00:36:40,764 So she's going to the path at least resistance, which is the 721 00:36:40,764 --> 00:36:42,965 lateral side. If you even that out with 722 00:36:42,965 --> 00:36:44,998 something that kind of compensates for that. 723 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:46,858 I think that might reduce that a little bit. 724 00:36:46,860 --> 00:36:49,858 Two shoes that popped into my. Oh, you go, David. 725 00:36:49,860 --> 00:36:52,740 Oh, I was going to say, one thing that could be a 726 00:36:52,740 --> 00:36:55,140 consideration too, is being careful with the amount of sole 727 00:36:55,140 --> 00:36:58,020 flare, if they already have a habit of inverting out to the 728 00:36:58,020 --> 00:37:00,660 outer part of their foot when they're running, I don't know 729 00:37:00,660 --> 00:37:03,060 this because I haven't seen them, but if they're hyper 730 00:37:03,060 --> 00:37:05,460 extending at their toes, because they're avoiding that great toe 731 00:37:05,460 --> 00:37:08,340 immediately, it might be wise to have a little bit extra lateral 732 00:37:08,340 --> 00:37:11,458 soul flair too to just kind of resist that motion a little bit. 733 00:37:11,460 --> 00:37:14,579 But one shoe that comes to mind, it would be the Ghost Max 734 00:37:14,579 --> 00:37:15,900 series. I feel like they've always done 735 00:37:15,900 --> 00:37:18,144 a pretty good job. That's some that's like kind of 736 00:37:18,144 --> 00:37:20,938 the 1st one that comes to my mind, honestly, from Brooks. 737 00:37:20,940 --> 00:37:24,867 Um, and I've had plenty of patients in similar boats that 738 00:37:24,867 --> 00:37:28,078 have done really well with the Ghost Max series. 739 00:37:28,079 --> 00:37:32,083 I was going to say Ghost Max for walking and then Glycerin Max 740 00:37:32,083 --> 00:37:36,219 for running. Like, I'd be curious because the 741 00:37:36,219 --> 00:37:40,335 glycerin max rocker is a little bit more distal in its starting 742 00:37:40,335 --> 00:37:42,401 point. So she'd have to see if it 743 00:37:42,401 --> 00:37:46,078 allows her to get onto it before it bugs her, but you can see the 744 00:37:46,078 --> 00:37:48,773 midsole of the Glycerin Max right now for those who are 745 00:37:48,773 --> 00:37:51,468 watching and you can just see how the rocker doesn't start 746 00:37:51,468 --> 00:37:54,214 till later. But I think that it, those would 747 00:37:54,214 --> 00:37:58,078 be 2 good options because Brooks does a really nice job of 748 00:37:58,078 --> 00:38:01,294 rockers without toe spring, whereas like even, I was talking 749 00:38:01,294 --> 00:38:04,070 about that Topo shoe. You know, the, what is it 750 00:38:04,070 --> 00:38:05,938 called? It's like, no, Spectre. 751 00:38:05,940 --> 00:38:09,468 It's like, dang it. The Spectre has rocker, but you 752 00:38:09,468 --> 00:38:13,402 can see if you're watching that the place where your foot lands 753 00:38:13,402 --> 00:38:16,018 rocks up or curves up a little bit. 754 00:38:16,019 --> 00:38:19,798 So it's going to matter. does a good job. 755 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,572 I will say the Mac series. So the Glycerin Max, and Ghost 756 00:38:23,572 --> 00:38:26,794 Max, not the Hyper-Max, unfortunately, but both those, I 757 00:38:26,794 --> 00:38:30,732 think, are great options because Brooks also does like a stiffer 758 00:38:30,732 --> 00:38:33,238 rocker, that doesn't actually feel weird, weird. 759 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,847 It rolls very nicely. I know I gave this shoe a really 760 00:38:36,847 --> 00:38:40,157 hard time for being so firm because it's definitely not 761 00:38:40,157 --> 00:38:43,798 soft, but that also adds to making it like really stable. 762 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:45,960 Like, this is basically a stability shoot, even though 763 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,701 it's not supposed to be. And yeah, I think you're 100% 764 00:38:48,701 --> 00:38:52,618 right. Man, the Ghost Max is awesome. 765 00:38:52,619 --> 00:38:55,259 I love that shoe so much for walking. 766 00:38:55,260 --> 00:38:58,449 It's so comfortable. and part of that, yeah, that for walker's 767 00:38:58,449 --> 00:39:00,899 great. Yeah, Ghost Max is like arguably 768 00:39:00,899 --> 00:39:02,638 go standing walking shoe. Absolutely. 769 00:39:02,638 --> 00:39:06,502 I got to like narrow it down and see what my favorite favorite 770 00:39:06,502 --> 00:39:08,878 are, but it's for sure on the list. 771 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,259 Um, what about the Diadora, uh, Kameleon 2? 772 00:39:13,260 --> 00:39:17,182 Oh, that's interesting. Firmer base, a little bit wider, 773 00:39:17,182 --> 00:39:20,818 kind of a forefoot rocker, but not a super sharp toe spring. 774 00:39:20,820 --> 00:39:26,338 Kind of checks all the bills. Is stiff enough? 775 00:39:26,340 --> 00:39:28,489 Yeah, it's pretty stiff. Oh yeah, it definitely is. 776 00:39:28,489 --> 00:39:30,238 That actually might be another good option. 777 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,888 Ironically, sitting in a similar category. of, again, not the 778 00:39:33,888 --> 00:39:37,810 lightest shoe, not the bounciest shoe, but a really good, fairly 779 00:39:37,810 --> 00:39:40,220 good forefoot rocker. Um, I might consider the 780 00:39:40,220 --> 00:39:43,972 sighting can be a little odd for that for a lot of Diadora stuff 781 00:39:43,972 --> 00:39:47,188 kind of fits me a little short and sometimes snug, so that 782 00:39:47,188 --> 00:39:50,404 might not be great from a, like, compressing, pushing that to a 783 00:39:50,404 --> 00:39:53,875 medial, whereas the glycerin max is a better job of that in the 784 00:39:53,875 --> 00:39:56,278 Ghost Max, but that's actually not a bad idea. 785 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,489 Yeah. The other one, in my mind, was 786 00:39:59,489 --> 00:40:03,732 the Magnify Max 2 from Puma. I think if you can, if you're if 787 00:40:03,732 --> 00:40:06,822 your foot matches the fit from an accommodation standpoint, the 788 00:40:06,822 --> 00:40:10,214 underfoot, the undercarriage is good as long as you've got space 789 00:40:10,214 --> 00:40:14,218 in the toe box, so you just have to test that part out. 790 00:40:14,219 --> 00:40:17,156 Another thing that can be really challenging, and this varies a 791 00:40:17,156 --> 00:40:20,352 lot depending on calf mobility and stuff like that, is being a 792 00:40:20,352 --> 00:40:23,012 little cautious with like, then there's not many of these 793 00:40:23,012 --> 00:40:24,642 anymore. Higher heel drop shoes where 794 00:40:24,642 --> 00:40:27,362 like the transition, because if the higher drop that you're 795 00:40:27,362 --> 00:40:30,626 sitting at, it actually puts a little bit more stress on the 796 00:40:30,626 --> 00:40:32,760 forefoot. So that, and some people that 797 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,170 cannot be great, I've also had other people who, it doesn't 798 00:40:36,170 --> 00:40:39,886 make sense that this should work, but it actually did, and I 799 00:40:39,886 --> 00:40:42,358 wonder, retrospectively, they all had pretty stiff calves. 800 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,662 So maybe it was just like just choosing the lesser of 2 evils, 801 00:40:45,662 --> 00:40:48,247 if that makes sense. That's not the right way to say 802 00:40:48,247 --> 00:40:50,038 that, but like the lesser of 2 impairments. 803 00:40:50,039 --> 00:40:53,171 But yeah, most of the stuff we're suggesting is in that like 804 00:40:53,171 --> 00:40:56,038 5 to six, 7 millimeter drop range, 8 millimeter drop range. 805 00:40:56,039 --> 00:40:59,038 So, yeah, checks out. Cool. 806 00:40:59,039 --> 00:41:03,054 All right, our next question is from Dexter, and Dexter asks 807 00:41:03,054 --> 00:41:05,616 this. I'm a road runner interested in 808 00:41:05,616 --> 00:41:09,478 getting into trail running. David, this is for you, I think. 809 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:13,510 No, it's for everybody, but... We've got you transitioning for 810 00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:17,348 your ultra coming up. Anyway, I recently signed up for 811 00:41:17,348 --> 00:41:21,058 a trail race this December here in Orange County, California. 812 00:41:21,059 --> 00:41:23,902 Nice. I normally wear stability shoes 813 00:41:23,902 --> 00:41:29,105 on the, like the new balance, 860, ASICS Gel-Kayano, and Hoka 814 00:41:29,105 --> 00:41:31,298 Gaviota. Wow, that is a sentence for Matt 815 00:41:31,298 --> 00:41:35,479 to have to read. Kayano and Gaviota in one 816 00:41:35,479 --> 00:41:36,718 sentence. Oh my gosh. 817 00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:42,469 I usually wear... so funny. So 860, Kayano, Gaviota, because 818 00:41:42,469 --> 00:41:47,458 I have flat, wide feet and tend to need some support. 819 00:41:47,460 --> 00:41:53,958 All my shoes are size 10.54 E. I don't see many trail shoes 820 00:41:53,958 --> 00:41:57,616 marketed specifically for stability shoes or as 821 00:41:57,616 --> 00:42:00,238 stability... Wait, hold on, hold on. 822 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:01,858 There are some other options, but keep going. 823 00:42:01,860 --> 00:42:03,979 Sorry. When choosing a trail shoe, 824 00:42:03,979 --> 00:42:07,609 should I look for stability features or do trail shoes 825 00:42:07,609 --> 00:42:10,237 handle support differently? What trail shoes would you 826 00:42:10,237 --> 00:42:12,389 recommend for me? Ultra seems like the only 827 00:42:12,389 --> 00:42:15,578 company to accommodate my wide feet, but I don't know if I can 828 00:42:15,578 --> 00:42:17,038 handle the 0 drop. Thanks. 829 00:42:17,039 --> 00:42:20,421 New Balance, Xero, if you're already running in the new 830 00:42:20,421 --> 00:42:21,912 balance. What was the new balance model 831 00:42:21,912 --> 00:42:23,459 they were running in? 860? 832 00:42:23,459 --> 00:42:25,138 860? Oh, okay. 833 00:42:25,139 --> 00:42:27,538 That's a little bit more pokey. That's very different. 834 00:42:27,539 --> 00:42:29,338 Yeah, my bad. I was thinking 880. 835 00:42:29,340 --> 00:42:32,738 So, wait, it's 860? I got kind of caught up in the 836 00:42:32,738 --> 00:42:34,259 whole naming of the shoes once you said that. 837 00:42:34,260 --> 00:42:42,060 So, New Balance 860. Um, Oh my gosh. can you say them 838 00:42:42,060 --> 00:42:45,238 again real quick? Kayano, Gaviota. 839 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:49,138 Okay. So, solid stability shoes. 840 00:42:49,139 --> 00:42:51,998 Yeah. I I don't know what the trails 841 00:42:51,998 --> 00:42:54,358 are like in County, but it would be an option. 842 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,178 They traditionally are a little bit wider. 843 00:42:57,179 --> 00:43:00,007 I mean, trail shoes in general having the full contact also 844 00:43:00,007 --> 00:43:01,998 with the lugs. They tend to be a little bit 845 00:43:01,998 --> 00:43:04,192 firmer in general. They tend to be a little bit 846 00:43:04,192 --> 00:43:06,820 more stable just because they have to handle the elements a 847 00:43:06,820 --> 00:43:09,200 little more, but, um, the cascadia would probably give you 848 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,818 a more familiar feel, I think, compared to the other ones. 849 00:43:11,820 --> 00:43:12,958 I'll think about a couple more right now. 850 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:14,098 I know Klein wants to say something. 851 00:43:14,099 --> 00:43:18,874 Can I share a little bit, Evan, having actually raced on the 852 00:43:18,874 --> 00:43:22,447 trails of Orange County several times, that typically it's 853 00:43:22,447 --> 00:43:25,457 firmer packed dirt? If you're closer to the ocean, 854 00:43:25,457 --> 00:43:29,090 occasionally you might get some sand, but most of the time it's 855 00:43:29,090 --> 00:43:32,470 usually firm packed dirt. The only wild card is 856 00:43:32,470 --> 00:43:35,505 occasionally, so because Southern California will get 857 00:43:35,505 --> 00:43:37,792 rainstorms. So once it rain, then it can be 858 00:43:37,792 --> 00:43:40,469 a bit of a muddy mess. So it really most times it's 859 00:43:40,469 --> 00:43:43,138 going to be firm, hard pack. Okay. 860 00:43:43,139 --> 00:43:44,759 Yeah, they're pretty runnable too. 861 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,358 Like they're not crazy at all in terms of technicality out there. 862 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:52,444 Not usually technical. Because I think to one of the 863 00:43:52,444 --> 00:43:55,184 questions, it's, should I think about finding stability the same 864 00:43:55,184 --> 00:43:58,198 when I'm looking for a road shoe or a trail shoe? 865 00:43:58,199 --> 00:44:01,979 I think it may depend a bit on the trail because if you're on a 866 00:44:01,979 --> 00:44:04,499 really technical terrain, lots of rocks, lots of roots, like 867 00:44:04,499 --> 00:44:07,775 things that you can't just get in rhythm because you have to be 868 00:44:07,775 --> 00:44:10,158 paying attention. I think that the type of 869 00:44:10,158 --> 00:44:13,906 stability you need is going to come from your body and your 870 00:44:13,906 --> 00:44:17,026 extrinsic muscles more so than just kind of that repetitive 871 00:44:17,026 --> 00:44:18,780 nature. It just won't be as repetitive 872 00:44:18,780 --> 00:44:21,162 in those situations. And I think it's more important 873 00:44:21,162 --> 00:44:24,486 to find a shoe that has a slightly wider base that isn't 874 00:44:24,486 --> 00:44:27,810 going to be too narrow so that you wouldn't roll off, like 875 00:44:27,810 --> 00:44:30,900 literally roll your ankle. So that's the type of stability 876 00:44:30,900 --> 00:44:34,276 I would look for. Um, what are you saying here, 877 00:44:34,276 --> 00:44:38,004 David? I'm doing fingers for T. 878 00:44:38,004 --> 00:44:39,358 N. F. 879 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:43,138 The North Face Vectiv Enduris 500 version 2. 880 00:44:43,139 --> 00:44:44,878 That's the exact shoe I was going to say. 881 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:46,318 That's the shoe I was going to bring up. 882 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,133 Yeah, no, 100%. once it dawned on me, I was like, oh, no, wait, 883 00:44:49,133 --> 00:44:50,280 that's like the perfect shoe. Yep. 884 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:54,240 Because that shoe has really wide platform and it's not going 885 00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:58,560 to have like built-in kind of biased to keep you from like 886 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,520 pronating, you know, like those shoes that you listed, have that 887 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,398 sort of structure tried to built into it. 888 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,878 But I don't think you need that as much on the trail. 889 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,213 People could totally disagree with me, but I just think that 890 00:45:12,213 --> 00:45:14,938 you're going to be more varied in your stepping. 891 00:45:14,940 --> 00:45:16,738 And so it's more about you controlling it. 892 00:45:16,739 --> 00:45:20,687 And as long as you have a shoe that's wide enough and isn't too 893 00:45:20,687 --> 00:45:23,218 compliant, you're going to be in a good spot. 894 00:45:23,219 --> 00:45:26,002 That shoe also has a plate, which creates some rigidity from 895 00:45:26,002 --> 00:45:29,578 side to side. So I, I'm a fan of that shoe. 896 00:45:29,579 --> 00:45:33,178 In the OC trails, they aren't that crazy, honestly. 897 00:45:33,179 --> 00:45:37,463 Like, you can kind of just take a shoe that is mostly road focus 898 00:45:37,463 --> 00:45:40,438 and throw some lugs on it. It'll be fine. 899 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:45,390 So, yeah, one of the challenges is there aren't really any 900 00:45:45,390 --> 00:45:48,538 official stability shoes in the trail world. 901 00:45:48,539 --> 00:45:51,589 I think actually one of the exceptions, David, you mentioned 902 00:45:51,589 --> 00:45:54,944 this earlier, the Stinson, it is actually, even though they don't 903 00:45:54,944 --> 00:45:58,898 listen to such, it actually has what Hoka is now using in their 904 00:45:58,898 --> 00:46:01,498 stability shoes, the H frame. So it's absolutely excellent. 905 00:46:01,500 --> 00:46:04,368 So I think of all the shoes I'd probably suggest, given that, 906 00:46:04,368 --> 00:46:07,226 you know, you're used to shoes that are just a little bit 907 00:46:07,226 --> 00:46:09,130 heavier naturally, just because they are stability shoes, 908 00:46:09,130 --> 00:46:12,359 Stinson might be a great option. But the things, if that's if 909 00:46:12,359 --> 00:46:16,259 that's too heavy for you, the things that you have to look for 910 00:46:16,259 --> 00:46:19,559 are going to be wide base, sidewalls, you're not going to 911 00:46:19,559 --> 00:46:22,259 have a medial post because they just don't do. 912 00:46:22,260 --> 00:46:25,771 There's there's a couple shoes that have done like pretty 913 00:46:25,771 --> 00:46:28,930 aggressive sidewalls like the Salomon Genesis, but this shoe's 914 00:46:28,930 --> 00:46:31,738 not going to work because it's super narrow. 915 00:46:31,739 --> 00:46:34,138 I don't know what this is the this is the old one. 916 00:46:34,139 --> 00:46:37,223 I haven't tested the new one yet, but yeah, so like Stinson's 917 00:46:37,223 --> 00:46:40,425 probably one of my top shoes. Vectiv Enduris 500 from The 918 00:46:40,425 --> 00:46:44,023 North Face is a decent option. It's not going to be nearly, if 919 00:46:44,023 --> 00:46:47,078 you really need stability. I think the Stinson is THE thing 920 00:46:47,078 --> 00:46:49,446 out there right now. It's probably going to be the 921 00:46:49,446 --> 00:46:52,618 most stable, to be honest. I think 2 others. 922 00:46:52,619 --> 00:46:55,900 I'm going to say one and I'm going to try to punt at David to 923 00:46:55,900 --> 00:46:58,516 see if he has thoughts because he's been testing him, but in 924 00:46:58,516 --> 00:47:00,478 the wide toe box category, that side of things. 925 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:05,100 Like, I think the ultra experience wild 3 is solid and 926 00:47:05,100 --> 00:47:09,298 it's not super high stack in the, like, sloppy way. 927 00:47:09,300 --> 00:47:13,213 So it's definitely more stable neutral, but it's wide and it's 928 00:47:13,213 --> 00:47:15,876 really accommodating fit. So that's one that I think you 929 00:47:15,876 --> 00:47:18,153 could consider trying. And then I was thinking about 930 00:47:18,153 --> 00:47:20,218 Topo. Um, they have a firmer foam too. 931 00:47:20,219 --> 00:47:22,489 Like you're doing the, are you doing the terra venture or ultra 932 00:47:22,489 --> 00:47:23,158 venture? have both. 933 00:47:23,159 --> 00:47:25,198 The Terra Venture, though, is more of a through hiker. 934 00:47:25,199 --> 00:47:27,792 You can run in it. I mean, there's no reason why 935 00:47:27,792 --> 00:47:30,726 you can't run it. But it, and I love it for 936 00:47:30,726 --> 00:47:32,918 hiking. It's like my, maybe my favorite 937 00:47:32,918 --> 00:47:36,636 hiking shoe period right now. Um, but yeah, the ultra venture 938 00:47:36,636 --> 00:47:39,838 actually would be a really nice option as well. 939 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:41,938 It's, I think it's pretty stable neutral. 940 00:47:41,940 --> 00:47:44,759 It's not going to be as stable as the Stinson. 941 00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,720 It just doesn't have like the built-in geometry features and 942 00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:50,879 it's not quite as firm. For once, this is actually one 943 00:47:50,879 --> 00:47:53,959 of the softer options from Topo, I think, especially on the 944 00:47:53,959 --> 00:47:56,444 trails. But it runs smooth and it does, 945 00:47:56,444 --> 00:47:59,278 it's stable enough and the lugs aren't super crazy. 946 00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:01,799 So if you're running on a lot of packed dirt, like it'll do just 947 00:48:01,799 --> 00:48:03,088 fine. And so you bring mega grip, but 948 00:48:03,088 --> 00:48:05,142 the lugs are, I don't know how deep they are, but they're not 949 00:48:05,142 --> 00:48:08,035 that deep. It's very runnable across both 950 00:48:08,035 --> 00:48:11,638 like road and trail type of footings. 951 00:48:11,639 --> 00:48:13,798 So I think it's an excellent option. 952 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,276 But I think if we're looking stability wise, I probably would 953 00:48:17,276 --> 00:48:20,743 lean Stinson or Vectiv Enduris before I go Ultra Venture, but 954 00:48:20,743 --> 00:48:23,578 it's a good option. Or even the Cascadia even. 955 00:48:23,579 --> 00:48:25,848 Like, yeah. Yeah, I think the Cascadia would 956 00:48:25,848 --> 00:48:28,320 be a good option. One that I'm doing a callout 957 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:29,998 because I'm kind of upset about this. 958 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,944 We, I don't think I've ever officially reviewed this shoe, 959 00:48:32,944 --> 00:48:36,766 but the ASICS Trabuco used to be one of the only true stability 960 00:48:36,766 --> 00:48:39,118 shoes because it actually had a medial post. 961 00:48:39,119 --> 00:48:41,698 They took that out and well, it does fit a little bit wider. 962 00:48:41,699 --> 00:48:45,058 I have tried them at REI every year. 963 00:48:45,059 --> 00:48:48,699 I've been curious and yeah, unfortunately not as stable as 964 00:48:48,699 --> 00:48:52,644 previous, it's got a wide base. It just doesn't have it's, and 965 00:48:52,644 --> 00:48:56,165 it fits a little bit wider, but it doesn't have the medial 966 00:48:56,165 --> 00:49:00,218 stability. get used to. So that one is probably going to 967 00:49:00,218 --> 00:49:03,770 pop up just because it's a common shoe that pops up when 968 00:49:03,770 --> 00:49:06,730 you type up stable trail shoes, but unfortunately hasn't worked 969 00:49:06,730 --> 00:49:08,498 in that manner. I haven't officially reviewed it 970 00:49:08,498 --> 00:49:11,424 and gotten a ton of miles on it. But just walking around and I've 971 00:49:11,424 --> 00:49:14,726 done this long enough to go, I either know it's going to be 972 00:49:14,726 --> 00:49:16,504 stable or not and it's more neutral. 973 00:49:16,504 --> 00:49:19,298 But yeah, if you are interested in other things, just you're 974 00:49:19,298 --> 00:49:21,838 going to need a shoe that the midfoot's filled in. 975 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,460 It can't be narrow. You're probably going to need 976 00:49:24,460 --> 00:49:26,818 very large side walls, which a lot of shoes do. 977 00:49:26,820 --> 00:49:28,498 I think there's a lot of hokas that do this. 978 00:49:28,500 --> 00:49:31,453 The challenge with Hokas is they, other than the Stinson, 979 00:49:31,453 --> 00:49:33,983 typically fit narrow. So I was almost going to suggest 980 00:49:33,983 --> 00:49:36,791 to you like the Challenger, which has done a really good job 981 00:49:36,791 --> 00:49:39,168 being stable. But if memory serves, it's also 982 00:49:39,168 --> 00:49:41,805 on the narrow side. So I'm still gonna go... 983 00:49:41,805 --> 00:49:43,438 They might have wide versions, though. 984 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:45,640 That's true. I actually don't know. 985 00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,358 Stinson, before you even finish saying the sentence. 986 00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,538 Yeah. So good. 987 00:49:51,539 --> 00:49:54,478 All right, we have one more question for today. 988 00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,538 This question comes from David, but not our David. 989 00:49:57,539 --> 00:49:59,878 How many for David? you don't know that? 990 00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:03,418 I guess that's true. Let me know. 991 00:50:03,420 --> 00:50:06,580 Um, so this is the question. This will be our last one for 992 00:50:06,580 --> 00:50:09,077 the night. Hey, 1st of all, thank you for 993 00:50:09,077 --> 00:50:12,027 all the amazing content. I have a question regarding 994 00:50:12,027 --> 00:50:15,778 something Matt said in the Skyward X to 100 mile review. 995 00:50:15,780 --> 00:50:19,078 He said that tendinopathies don't like compression. 996 00:50:19,079 --> 00:50:22,570 Is this across all tendons? I'm dealing with some post-tib 997 00:50:22,570 --> 00:50:25,078 tendinitis and have assumed compression would be helping. 998 00:50:25,079 --> 00:50:28,978 I don't wear compression socks, but wear tighter crew socks when 999 00:50:28,978 --> 00:50:32,518 running and throughout the day, assuming it would be helping. 1000 00:50:32,519 --> 00:50:35,111 Would it be better to try and reduce the amount of compression 1001 00:50:35,111 --> 00:50:37,978 on the tendon? before we go into that? 1002 00:50:37,980 --> 00:50:41,050 Can Matt, can you maybe, for people who didn't see that 1003 00:50:41,050 --> 00:50:44,119 review, talk through what you, what you were talking about in 1004 00:50:44,119 --> 00:50:47,746 that review and bring us up to speed on what a tendinopathy is 1005 00:50:47,746 --> 00:50:49,978 in its relationship to compression, what you meant? 1006 00:50:49,980 --> 00:50:54,457 Yeah, so a tendinopathy is a chronic irritation of any tendon 1007 00:50:54,457 --> 00:50:58,136 that can happen. So tendons tend to have very not 1008 00:50:58,136 --> 00:51:01,988 great blood flow, they tend to recover very slowly and they 1009 00:51:01,988 --> 00:51:04,438 adapt very, very, very slowly over time. 1010 00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:06,984 Muscles, other tissue, muscles especially recover really quick, 1011 00:51:06,984 --> 00:51:10,798 and a tendon is the connection of the muscle to the bone. 1012 00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,300 And you can actually have small tent, for example, hamstrings, 1013 00:51:13,300 --> 00:51:15,298 by the way, have tendons on either side. 1014 00:51:15,300 --> 00:51:18,030 Other areas, you kind of notice they typically have longer 1015 00:51:18,030 --> 00:51:20,759 tendons more on one side, but there's that can vary. 1016 00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:24,898 So tendinopathies are chronic irritations of those. 1017 00:51:24,900 --> 00:51:28,074 There's actually some evidence that we really don't see 1018 00:51:28,074 --> 00:51:30,538 tenninitis, which is the acute short-term version. 1019 00:51:30,539 --> 00:51:34,858 Because you don't have to have pain to have a tendinopathy. 1020 00:51:34,860 --> 00:51:37,060 You can have pathology in the tendon and not have any 1021 00:51:37,060 --> 00:51:39,708 symptoms. 50% of runners have Achilles tendinopathy and have 1022 00:51:39,708 --> 00:51:43,375 no symptoms. So, um, with that said, 1023 00:51:43,375 --> 00:51:47,038 tendinopathy isn't always the correct term. 1024 00:51:47,039 --> 00:51:49,359 There's actually several variations that can happen, and 1025 00:51:49,359 --> 00:51:52,259 there's more information that's coming out each year where you 1026 00:51:52,259 --> 00:51:55,150 can actually have the tendon itself be what's being irritated 1027 00:51:55,150 --> 00:51:58,329 and can be a pain generating structure for a variety of 1028 00:51:58,329 --> 00:52:00,239 reasons. Either things have been going on 1029 00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:03,479 so long, that you just get some chronic changes, where you get 1030 00:52:03,479 --> 00:52:06,449 excessive nerve growth in a tissue, and then the actual like 1031 00:52:06,449 --> 00:52:09,418 the structural makeup doesn't look as solid as it once was. 1032 00:52:09,420 --> 00:52:11,278 It's trying to like just heal and throw things down. 1033 00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,150 There's also like tenosynovitis that can also happen that can 1034 00:52:14,150 --> 00:52:17,586 also masquerade as this, or you can just have, and that's the 1035 00:52:17,586 --> 00:52:20,160 sheath of the tendon, can be very irritable, and 1036 00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,734 unfortunately, one of the more common tendinopathy tests that 1037 00:52:22,734 --> 00:52:26,166 are actually pretty decent, is if you push or pinch the thing 1038 00:52:26,166 --> 00:52:29,884 and it hurts, it's, it is more likely to be a tenopathy, and 1039 00:52:29,884 --> 00:52:32,458 it's hilarious because like the metrics are halfway decent. 1040 00:52:32,460 --> 00:52:35,484 And with that, especially Achilles tendinopathy, excessive 1041 00:52:35,484 --> 00:52:39,368 pressure, i.e. there's been research that shows that using 1042 00:52:39,368 --> 00:52:43,247 compression gear is actually a risk factor for developing 1043 00:52:43,247 --> 00:52:45,718 tendinopathy. Or can be irritable. 1044 00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:49,498 So yeah, taco, why do you think that's the case? 1045 00:52:49,500 --> 00:52:53,278 I think just because the tissue is sensitive, right? 1046 00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:56,699 It's the same reason why a lot of the pressure tests are so 1047 00:52:56,699 --> 00:52:58,798 good, when you push on something, it's irritating. 1048 00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,723 It's the same reason I've complained for so long that you 1049 00:53:01,723 --> 00:53:05,168 have a lot of these either very stiff heel counters or the, like 1050 00:53:05,168 --> 00:53:08,249 the heel. uh, gosh, what's that called in the back where the 1051 00:53:08,249 --> 00:53:09,778 heel comes up around the Achilles? 1052 00:53:09,780 --> 00:53:14,849 Um, the, not the, the collar. If the heel collar dips into 1053 00:53:14,849 --> 00:53:18,088 much, it's been so aggravating for me because it just keeps 1054 00:53:18,088 --> 00:53:19,558 constant pressure on that tendon. 1055 00:53:19,559 --> 00:53:22,992 So a lot of these things are very irritable and irritable to 1056 00:53:22,992 --> 00:53:25,146 touch. So if you put constant pressure 1057 00:53:25,146 --> 00:53:28,256 through them, in some people, not everyone, and some people 1058 00:53:28,256 --> 00:53:31,366 that might be quite irritating and can further symptoms, not 1059 00:53:31,366 --> 00:53:34,165 necessarily from swelling, but just because they can sometimes 1060 00:53:34,165 --> 00:53:37,888 be painful to touch, that may not be the best to have 1061 00:53:37,888 --> 00:53:40,678 something that adds more touch in a firmer way. 1062 00:53:40,679 --> 00:53:44,100 I think that's great. And I think one of the reasons 1063 00:53:44,100 --> 00:53:46,018 why in our minds, it would make sense. 1064 00:53:46,019 --> 00:53:50,415 If I have pain in a tendon and I put compression over it, I bet 1065 00:53:50,415 --> 00:53:53,638 that I have, because I have pain, I probably have swelling. 1066 00:53:53,639 --> 00:53:56,771 And I think that's an often kind of connected thing that people 1067 00:53:56,771 --> 00:53:59,898 make in their mind and they're like, okay, if I have swelling, 1068 00:53:59,898 --> 00:54:02,238 then I'll add compression that'll push some of the 1069 00:54:02,238 --> 00:54:04,318 swelling away and then that will help everything. 1070 00:54:04,318 --> 00:54:07,178 And you're just reiterating the fact that that's not really the 1071 00:54:07,178 --> 00:54:10,298 case with most tendon pain or not really related to ice or 1072 00:54:10,298 --> 00:54:11,610 that sort of inflammation. Right. 1073 00:54:11,610 --> 00:54:14,578 And there are, yeah, there are some exceptions, by the way. 1074 00:54:14,579 --> 00:54:17,759 People really seem to enjoy the like patellar tendon braces. 1075 00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:19,498 You'll see people wearing those things all the time. 1076 00:54:19,500 --> 00:54:22,350 There is a subset of the population that, for whatever 1077 00:54:22,350 --> 00:54:25,198 reason, in the patellar tendon, those tend to work well. 1078 00:54:25,199 --> 00:54:29,203 There's also evidence up in the upper extremity, David was just 1079 00:54:29,203 --> 00:54:31,751 mentioning this with the lateral, lateral epicondylosis 1080 00:54:31,751 --> 00:54:35,020 or the elbow extensor tendons on that lateral side. 1081 00:54:35,020 --> 00:54:37,198 Counterforce braces can also be helpful. 1082 00:54:37,199 --> 00:54:40,136 It has been my, the counterforce braces are a little bit 1083 00:54:40,136 --> 00:54:41,998 different though, because they help redistribute loads. 1084 00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:47,304 Some of the just pure straps I have found can be irritating for 1085 00:54:47,304 --> 00:54:51,298 most patients. So similar, but not always. 1086 00:54:51,300 --> 00:54:54,684 I think those straps more distribute force differently as 1087 00:54:54,684 --> 00:54:59,563 the theory more so than at, and that's usually put on a site 1088 00:54:59,563 --> 00:55:02,938 distant to the irritable structure or different than it. 1089 00:55:02,940 --> 00:55:05,712 So it's like on the patellar tended, but not typically right 1090 00:55:05,712 --> 00:55:08,766 over the painful area. Same with the up in the strap 1091 00:55:08,766 --> 00:55:11,062 here. I think if I'm hearing you 1092 00:55:11,062 --> 00:55:14,392 right, this concept would apply to other tenonopsies, such as 1093 00:55:14,392 --> 00:55:18,055 post tib, but I think what's interesting is for post tib, 1094 00:55:18,055 --> 00:55:21,718 there are a lot of other things that can cause compression. 1095 00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:26,038 Socks obviously could add it to any side that the sock is on. 1096 00:55:26,039 --> 00:55:29,917 But if you have a shoe that has a pretty good side wall, that 1097 00:55:29,917 --> 00:55:33,238 could actually push into that post tip tendon a lot as well. 1098 00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:37,139 So do you have thoughts about that from a post-tib, how to 1099 00:55:37,139 --> 00:55:39,414 consider the impact of compression through footwear 1100 00:55:39,414 --> 00:55:41,038 outside of like compressive socks? 1101 00:55:41,039 --> 00:55:44,679 Yeah, I think I'm a little bit less, unless the side wall is 1102 00:55:44,679 --> 00:55:48,039 massive, because that's going to need to come up pretty high, I'm 1103 00:55:48,039 --> 00:55:51,119 a little bit less worried because side walls will often do 1104 00:55:51,119 --> 00:55:54,479 kind of the opposite where they tend to like either slow down 1105 00:55:54,479 --> 00:55:57,279 motion, so maybe there's a little bit less tensile load 1106 00:55:57,279 --> 00:55:59,520 through there. But there are lots of shoes 1107 00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,599 where the medial side of the upper actually comes up really 1108 00:56:02,599 --> 00:56:04,640 high. David, we were just talking 1109 00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:08,512 about a shoe that did this several episodes ago where it 1110 00:56:08,512 --> 00:56:11,759 was like, oh, it was the... The stinson goes pretty high. 1111 00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,212 We were just talking about that one, but... 1112 00:56:14,212 --> 00:56:16,078 Adidas. Why am I hyperboost? 1113 00:56:16,079 --> 00:56:18,400 Oh, yeah. Where it came up a little bit 1114 00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,480 too high and then supposedly they may have changed the inline 1115 00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:23,158 model compared to what we received. 1116 00:56:23,159 --> 00:56:25,678 Well, yeah, though, no, that would have been the heel call. 1117 00:56:25,679 --> 00:56:28,798 No, not the it was the actual upper, not the side walls. 1118 00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:30,298 The upper came up a little bit high. 1119 00:56:30,300 --> 00:56:33,430 And there's certain companies who also use like stiffer agents 1120 00:56:33,430 --> 00:56:35,894 in the actual upper. That's something you're going to 1121 00:56:35,894 --> 00:56:38,810 have to balance where that with an irritable post tip 10 and 1122 00:56:38,810 --> 00:56:41,483 sidewalls are usually fine, but when they when things come up 1123 00:56:41,483 --> 00:56:43,910 really high and they add stiffness, that may be something 1124 00:56:43,910 --> 00:56:46,978 that may not work. Yeah. 1125 00:56:46,980 --> 00:56:49,889 Very cool. David, do you have anything to 1126 00:56:49,889 --> 00:56:53,723 add on this on this concept? No, I think I think Klein had it 1127 00:56:53,723 --> 00:56:56,257 pretty good. And I think looking at it, just 1128 00:56:56,257 --> 00:56:58,696 finding the irritable structure and finding ways to take 1129 00:56:58,696 --> 00:57:02,758 pressure off of it, and it may or may not be through the use of 1130 00:57:02,758 --> 00:57:05,728 different types of footwear or even, I mean, shoot, even like, 1131 00:57:05,728 --> 00:57:08,968 let's say an insole or something to take pressure off the medial 1132 00:57:08,968 --> 00:57:12,208 side, temporarily, or try to, at least, but then there's always a 1133 00:57:12,208 --> 00:57:14,638 chance it irritates it more if it's irritated distally. 1134 00:57:14,639 --> 00:57:18,398 So, it's hard to say, you know, but I think taking steps to 1135 00:57:18,398 --> 00:57:21,866 slowly narrow it down and take pressure off of those areas is 1136 00:57:21,866 --> 00:57:24,178 probably probably the best bet in this moment. 1137 00:57:24,179 --> 00:57:25,972 Yep. That's the challenging thing 1138 00:57:25,972 --> 00:57:29,910 with tendons is generally they respond very well to like short, 1139 00:57:29,910 --> 00:57:34,564 hire acute loads and like loads, but like the long stuff tends to 1140 00:57:34,564 --> 00:57:37,674 not be great. There was a great prospective 1141 00:57:37,674 --> 00:57:41,744 study that just came out looking at biomechanical risk factors 1142 00:57:41,744 --> 00:57:45,407 and other risk factors for Achilles tendinopathy, and one 1143 00:57:45,407 --> 00:57:48,658 of them was people that do higher mileage. 1144 00:57:48,659 --> 00:57:50,759 And I think it's, again, that's, I'm definitely that person. 1145 00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:54,434 I'm not saying you shouldn't, but you just have to realize 1146 00:57:54,434 --> 00:57:58,438 tendons do not tend to do very well with like extended loads. 1147 00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:01,639 And that means tensile, compressive, all the different 1148 00:58:01,639 --> 00:58:03,859 stresses. They respond best to kind of 1149 00:58:03,859 --> 00:58:07,495 more short things that are spaced out to give them time to 1150 00:58:07,495 --> 00:58:10,680 recover. And from our, um, our, yeah, 1151 00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:14,520 yeah, with our, our awesome conversation that Nathan 1152 00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:18,360 organized with Karin Silbernagel, like, uh, Karin — 1153 00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:21,585 sorry — Karin Silbernagel. Um, yeah, she would attribute 1154 00:58:21,585 --> 00:58:25,239 that not only do you have to do these short acute loads to get 1155 00:58:25,239 --> 00:58:28,632 it to adapt and not say don't run, just you have to modulate 1156 00:58:28,632 --> 00:58:30,718 that, but it takes, what was the comment? 1157 00:58:30,719 --> 00:58:32,038 This has been in my head for a while. 1158 00:58:32,039 --> 00:58:35,986 It takes up to a year of loading after it stops hurting to 1159 00:58:35,986 --> 00:58:38,278 actually make some changes. And I was like, dang. 1160 00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:41,725 So doing things for long periods of time, like compression for a 1161 00:58:41,725 --> 00:58:44,308 long period of time, maybe something that annoys it, 1162 00:58:44,308 --> 00:58:47,178 whereas, you know, other, it's not saying compression is bad, 1163 00:58:47,178 --> 00:58:50,622 but just like any loads that tend, and it's going to adapt 1164 00:58:50,622 --> 00:58:52,918 and probably respond better to things being brief. 1165 00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:54,036 Right. Absolutely. 1166 00:58:54,036 --> 00:58:58,798 That's why I'm changing to the 100 meter is my main distance. 1167 00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:03,636 Dude, all, you know, the how sore I was after the mile race 1168 00:59:03,636 --> 00:59:08,100 was really eye-opening, and I will say one of the things that 1169 00:59:08,100 --> 00:59:11,818 like, when you, when you've done marathon stuff like that? 1170 00:59:11,820 --> 00:59:14,218 Like you're used to just the whole your whole body aching. 1171 00:59:14,219 --> 00:59:16,618 You've got like joint soreness, everything aches. 1172 00:59:16,619 --> 00:59:20,182 It's very weird to have run a more middle distance event and 1173 00:59:20,182 --> 00:59:23,670 have my muscles be so sore. Joints are obviously fine and it 1174 00:59:23,670 --> 00:59:27,658 just kind of continue to make me think about my own, my own goal. 1175 00:59:27,659 --> 00:59:31,126 This is nothing to anybody else, but my own goals of like 1176 00:59:31,126 --> 00:59:33,430 longevity and knowing how important like strength training 1177 00:59:33,430 --> 00:59:36,886 is in building muscle and force capacity and being like, I was 1178 00:59:36,886 --> 00:59:40,223 saying 5K 10 K. I might be starting to focus on 1179 00:59:40,223 --> 00:59:41,698 like the mile. It's hard. 1180 00:59:41,699 --> 00:59:45,619 It is hard to what to like do that and just wonder, it makes 1181 00:59:45,619 --> 00:59:48,699 me wonder what are the muscular skill changes, knowing the body 1182 00:59:48,699 --> 00:59:51,778 tends to respond really well, at least muscular skill will leave 1183 00:59:51,778 --> 00:59:54,289 these short loads, as opposed to cardiovascularly does really 1184 00:59:54,289 --> 00:59:57,358 great, you know, for a variety of reasons with long stuff. 1185 00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:00,500 Just food for thought. power and anaerobic adaptations too, that 1186 01:00:00,500 --> 01:00:04,579 start to play in a little bit more as that distance comes down 1187 01:00:04,579 --> 01:00:06,838 lower as well. Yeah. 1188 01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:09,384 So just thinking on the same lines as I'm going, hey, I've 1189 01:00:09,384 --> 01:00:11,292 got Achilles tendinopathy, but managing it, it's doing well 1190 01:00:11,292 --> 01:00:13,198 enough that I can run in track spikes now. 1191 01:00:13,199 --> 01:00:16,367 Same with, you know, post-tib stuff going, huh, like, how can 1192 01:00:16,367 --> 01:00:20,111 I think about some changes to how I train and how I load 1193 01:00:20,111 --> 01:00:22,991 things to kind of encourage this, but also thinking long 1194 01:00:22,991 --> 01:00:23,878 term? What can I do? 1195 01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:25,618 So just food for thought? Don't have an answer. 1196 01:00:25,619 --> 01:00:29,669 Just interesting about how the body adapts to things and 1197 01:00:29,669 --> 01:00:32,098 certain tissues. Absolutely. 1198 01:00:32,099 --> 01:00:35,778 Fantastic. Well, we are always so thankful 1199 01:00:35,778 --> 01:00:38,775 for everyone who submits questions and we're thankful to 1200 01:00:38,775 --> 01:00:42,260 be able to discuss them. We're sorry that we can't get to 1201 01:00:42,260 --> 01:00:45,120 every single question that comes through, but if you have other 1202 01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:47,978 questions that you'd like us to discuss, you can always reach 1203 01:00:47,978 --> 01:00:49,532 out to us at doctorsofrunning@gmail.com, and 1204 01:00:49,532 --> 01:00:53,158 we would love to be able to respond to as many as we can. 1205 01:00:53,159 --> 01:00:55,559 Yes, Matt. I have a question for the 1206 01:00:55,559 --> 01:00:58,308 audience. We've got some very long emails 1207 01:00:58,308 --> 01:01:01,806 that sometimes come in. And a lot of times they're very 1208 01:01:01,806 --> 01:01:03,805 good questions. The only challenge is sometimes 1209 01:01:03,805 --> 01:01:06,730 they give some information that makes me worried just because 1210 01:01:06,730 --> 01:01:09,358 we're always, we try to be really cautious, right? 1211 01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:13,036 And Nathan's did a great job of saying speaking, that we, again, 1212 01:01:13,036 --> 01:01:15,178 are not providing official medical advice, right? 1213 01:01:15,179 --> 01:01:17,638 This is a podcast, right? We are licensed professionals. 1214 01:01:17,639 --> 01:01:20,210 That is actually something that does limit us with what we can 1215 01:01:20,210 --> 01:01:22,094 exactly say. But there's been some really 1216 01:01:22,094 --> 01:01:25,288 good questions that have kind of looked at going, hey, would 1217 01:01:25,288 --> 01:01:28,206 people be open? if they had like a more extent 1218 01:01:28,206 --> 01:01:32,586 question if one of us or all of us could use that as an entire 1219 01:01:32,586 --> 01:01:34,302 episode. Because, again, we try to make 1220 01:01:34,302 --> 01:01:37,146 things, like, a lot of the questions are like, we want to 1221 01:01:37,146 --> 01:01:39,516 make sure we can, like, get appropriate timing and just 1222 01:01:39,516 --> 01:01:41,886 wondering if people out there can give us feedback going, 1223 01:01:41,886 --> 01:01:45,670 would it be okay if we did kind of a full episode or one of us 1224 01:01:45,670 --> 01:01:48,738 did a full episode on one of the more kind of complex ones? 1225 01:01:48,738 --> 01:01:51,334 Because there's some interesting stuff I'd love to share and kind 1226 01:01:51,334 --> 01:01:53,458 of talk through, but obviously want to get consent. 1227 01:01:53,460 --> 01:01:54,838 So just a thought for people out there. 1228 01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:56,938 Yeah. Fantastic. 1229 01:01:56,940 --> 01:02:00,358 So if you are wanting to reach out to us. 1230 01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:03,358 You can always reach out to us at doctorsofrunning@gmail.com. 1231 01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:06,720 And if you want to see any of the other things that we have 1232 01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:09,120 going on, you can go to doctorsofrunning.com or find us 1233 01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:11,278 on any of our socials at Doctors of Running. 1234 01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:11,579 Thanks y'all for joining, and we'll see you next time.