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Taking breaks from running 
because of running related 

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injuries can really be a 
discouragement in your process 

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of training and that's why I 
have loved having access to the 

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lever movement system, both as a
physical therapist and 

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personally. 
It is a loud, a earlier and very

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intentional and sequential 
return to running to really 

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manage the amount of load that 
is being put through the tissues

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that have been injured, whether 
that's from a tendon issue or 

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something like a bone stress 
injury. 

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The lever movement system is 
extremely affordable and 

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completely portable, allowing it
to be used at really any 

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treadmill. 
So if you're looking at a way to

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help you as you return back from
different types of running 

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injuries, you can look at 
levermovement.com and check out 

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their systems. 
And you can also use Dor 20 for 

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20% off your purchase. 
Hey everyone, and welcome to the

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Doctors Running podcast where we
a group doctors physical therapy

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talked about the art and the 
science group. 

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I think you put in our feet 
today. 

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I am. 
We are very, very lucky to have 

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an esteemed guest, someone that 
we've known for quite some time 

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and who we have a great amount 
of respect for and also 

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occasionally get to see him 
either in person or go back and 

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forth online. 
I've got Corey Hoffman on the 

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line. 
And so Corey is a very important

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person at Saucony and we go back
and forth talking all the time. 

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And I'll let Corey introduce 
himself in a second. 

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But the purpose of this episode 
is Corey and I are going to have

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a little debate talking about 
super shoes. 

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Because Corey, if you don't know
this has a really awesome sub 

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stack out there where he talks 
about some of the bio mechanics 

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behind what's going on, address 
some of the research stuff 

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that's going out there. 
And if you don't subscribe and 

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read it, you definitely should. 
But one of the articles, Corey, 

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that you wrote was about super 
shoes and injuries. 

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And so we are going to get into 
that and debate that a little 

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bit and we'll go from there. 
But first, would you mind for 

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the for the people that are new,
would you mind introducing 

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yourself and letting them know 
you're the pedigree behind your 

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name? 
Well, thank you. 

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Always great to be on the show. 
Love the podcast to listen to it

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while I'm running along with 
Charles every every Wednesday. 

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So it's it's it's an honour to 
be back on. 

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And yeah. 
So, so my name is Corey Hoffman.

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For those of you who haven't 
listened to me in past episodes,

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I'm a senior performance 
engineer at Socanee. 

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What does that mean? 
Well, it means I basically 

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oversee all fit testing, wear 
testing, mechanical testing for 

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both components and whole shoe 
physiological testing and also 

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biomechanical testing for all 
products in our portfolio. 

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So I stay busy. 
It's a lot of fun and also can 

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contribute to our, our sister 
brand in our portfolio Merrill 

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as well. 
So I'm really excited to be here

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and really excited to 
potentially debate. 

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I, I'm, I'm sure we're, we're in
closer alignment. 

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I've, I've listened to you a lot
over the years. 

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Not so you've you, I've listened
to you a lot more than you've 

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listened to me. 
But I I think we're probably 

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going to be a lot closer in 
alignment than than. 

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Than you might think I would 
agree, but as usual I'm going to

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try to cause some debate and 
problems as I usually do, just 

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to keep things interesting. 
So I love it Corey I has. 

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I've had the great fortune of 
both meeting Corey in person 

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several times and him actually 
testing me in the lab. 

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And you know what? 
I'm going to tell you this, I'm 

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still jealous of that massive 
Woodway treadmill that you guys 

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have in there and all the cool 
stuff you've got. 

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Like it's. 
Yeah, it's absolutely awesome. 

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What a fun place to go to work. 
So I. 

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Have a lot of. 
Toys, Yes, they have a lot of 

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toys. 
There's a lot of things that we 

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saw we went there previously 
that we couldn't talk about as 

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usual, as like instead of just 
David being the one that's 

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saying I can't talk about it, it
was all of us not being able to 

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talk about it. 
But it's really fun to know a 

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group and know an individual 
that really not only like works 

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on this stuff, but also geeks 
out at it just as much and also 

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is asking similar questions and 
trying the best to answer them 

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with off the limited evidence 
that we have. 

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So, Speaking of which, Corey, 
would you do a quick synopsis of

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the article that you wrote? 
Of course, yeah. 

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So, so, as, as Matt mentioned, 
I, I started a sub stack earlier

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this year, just just an 
opportunity to, to write on 

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topics I find interesting. 
Of course, given my background 

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and, and you know, my, my day 
job, I, I, I think about running

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a lot, I think about footwear a 
lot. 

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And this sort of topic has been 
coming up certainly more 

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frequently in the past handful 
of years. 

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The the idea of injury risk 
training, running, racing and 

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super shoes. 
So it, it, it, it became a topic

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that I thought would be 
interesting to write about. 

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So I certainly had some 
preconceived notions and some 

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opinions. 
So I started diving a little bit

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deeper and, you know, doing, 
doing some research, you know, 

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digging up articles I hadn't 
read in the past and, or I 

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hadn't previously read until 
now. 

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So it kind of came up with this 
thesis, wrote this article, you 

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know, it was my first launch on 
my sub stack. 

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I think I got a pretty good 
response. 

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A lot of people said, I know 
you're an idiot or no, I totally

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yes, I agree. 
Thank you for writing this and 

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I've got a lot of good feedback 
from it. 

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So so yeah, I, I thought it 
would be relevant and timely, 

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certainly given, you know, my 
day job and and the, you know, 

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the proliferation of super shoes
in in the market. 

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So basically it's, it's, it's 
conversations I've had with, 

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with colleagues, you know, with,
with, you know, distinguished 

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podcasters like like Matt here. 
And it's, it's the idea of, you 

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know, super shoes. 
You know, they, they've been 

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around a while now. 
Almost every brand has a handful

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of them. 
But is there any potential risk 

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associated with running in them 
period? 

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And then is there any risk 
associated with running in them 

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frequently and then perhaps 
maybe even running in them, 

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running in them every single 
day? 

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So I think that was kind of the,
the genesis, you know, behind 

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it. 
So I, I guess we can kind of 

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dive in. 
I'm, I'm going to walk through 

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kind of my, my thought process, 
the research that I read and 

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kind of what, what led me down 
that path. 

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And then that feel free to just 
dive in and let me know if you 

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agree, disagree. 
If you love that paper, you hate

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that paper, and we'll just kind 
of go from there. 

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Got it. 
Does that sound good? 

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That sounds good to me. 
Yeah, so I think the the article

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that's brought up the most when,
you know, when I'm having this 

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discussion or debate or, you 
know, conversation with with 

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with colleagues is is a paper by
Adam Ted 40 hope I'm saying the 

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name right from 2023. 
I believe it was it was recent. 

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And and when the article is 
something to the effect of bone 

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stress injuries in what they 
called carbon fiber plated 

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footwear. 
And what they what their 

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objective was was to highlight a
series of five case studies that

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involved a specific injury for 
runners when when specifically 

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wearing a super shoe or an 
advanced footwear technology. 

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And these particular injury was 
navicular stress fracture, which

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is not a good one. 
I've, I've never had that 

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injury. 
I'm, I'm very thankful for that.

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Matt, I'm hoping you haven't 
either. 

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It's, it's a yeah, it's, it's a 
bad one. 

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So they, they essentially said, 
let's take a closer look at this

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particular injury. 
And we just wanted to talk about

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these five athletes and, and 
describe kind of their 

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backgrounds and, and who they 
are and, and what happened to 

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them specifically that led to 
the injury and what's and, and, 

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and their justification or 
their, you know, that the 

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impetus behind the article was 
well, we know from the past 6-7 

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years of research that the, the 
bio mechanics of the foot and 

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the ankle are altered when 
wearing super shoes compared to 

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traditional footwear. 
So if it is altered, then 

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potentially the stresses applied
to the body are different. 

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And if those stresses are 
applied differently, then 

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there's potential for an injury 
mechanism here. 

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So totally fair, totally 
reasonable. 

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And so if you if you read the 
article, you take a closer look 

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at the five individuals who who 
were injured. 

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Matt, you're smiling. 
I'm guessing you you know this 

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article well. 
Yes, I do know this article well

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and I have, I have it's, it says
interesting things, but there 

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are some reservations that 
obviously should be held when 

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you're only looking at 5:00. 
So basically what's called a 

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case series where this is not a 
randomized controls trial, it's 

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not even really an observational
study. 

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It's just you. 
I mean, it kind of is, but you 

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just picked these five 
individual cases. 

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And the challenge with this is 
that you, it's not as it's not 

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controlled, right? 
You never know who you're 

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getting or why. 
And I'll, I'll let you keep 

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going. 
But just this is a good starting

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place, but it's not the end. 
And that's what's important to 

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pay attention to early. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally agree.

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Yeah, it's basically a case 
study. 

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And five of them rolled into 
into one. 

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And and So what they found was 
of the five athletes who had 

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developed an avicular stress 
fracture while wearing carbon 

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plated footwear, 3 of the five 
athletes were current or former 

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steeplechasers. 
Now I've never run the steeple, 

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but it it, it looks like pretty,
it looks like it's a pretty 

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tough event. 
Certainly the the stresses 

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associated with that are are 
pretty different from just flat 

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over ground running. 
Two of the five with some 

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overlap had a past navicular 
stress fracture and then that 

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popped up again or it occurred 
reoccurred when that athlete 

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reintroduced or introduced 
carbon plated footwear for the 

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first. 
Time and for the listeners from 

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a clinical perspective, 
regardless of what you're 

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wearing, the greatest risk for a
stress fracture in an area is a 

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previous history of a stress 
fraction of in that area. 

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And that doesn't matter if it's 
the navicular, A metatarsal, the

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distal, the tibia, femur, 
sacrum. 

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I'm seeing, I've seen a 
surprising number of sacral 

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stress fractures recently and 
they very, they frequently 

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reoccur. 
And we're not sure by the way, 

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if there's a biomechanical 
influence, if it's 

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multifactorial, just they when 
they happen in one area, they 

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tend to reoccur because when you
have any kind of fracture, be it

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stress fracture or full like 
break, the bone doesn't fully 

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00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,440
ever heal, right? 
You get healing, it stabilizes. 

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00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,120
But like any type of injury, 
there's still a echo is probably

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00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,480
the best term I've ever heard 
from this from a radiologist 

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00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,200
friend that I was talking to. 
He goes, there's always a little

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00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,880
echo there. 
There's always a shadow that of 

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what was there previously, 
meaning it's healed, but it's 

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not going to be exactly the 
same, which is why if you know 

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care is not taken, there's 
definitely risk for it to 

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reoccur in the same area. 
And a lot of people, 

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00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,320
unfortunately, will know. 
If you had one stress fracture, 

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00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,400
you'll generally know what the 
second that whether the second 

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00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,440
one is or is not the same thing.
90 plus percent. 

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00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,520
This is not evidence based as 
testimonial of patients that 

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00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,640
I've worked with have gone. 
Yeah, it kind of feels the same.

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00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:37,120
Gosh, but yeah, sorry. 
Yeah, I might even go one step 

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additional and say that almost 
for almost any injury, the 

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00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,920
highest risk factor is having 
had that same injury in the 

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00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:46,280
past. 
You know, I, I think that would 

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00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,320
extend to beyond, you know, 
boneless dress injuries. 

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00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:55,800
So and one of the five, again, 
let's remember that one of the 5

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00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,440
was an athlete that normally 
wears orthotics, took out the 

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00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,600
orthotic and then ran in a super
shoe for I think it's at the 

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00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:08,600
second or the third time. 
And it was a 22 mile training 

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00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,520
run deep into a marathon 
training block, which, you know,

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00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,160
that's, that's going to be a 
very, very high stress kind of 

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introduction of a brand new 
training stimulus in multiple 

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00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,640
different ways. 
So I, I think almost all five of

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00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,040
those I, I'm, I'm, I'm reading 
this and I'm trying to look at 

226
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,160
it with a critical eye. 
And I'm thinking there might be 

227
00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,560
a lot of explanations here 
beyond just the introduction of 

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00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:41,400
what they call a carbon fiber 
plated shoe now, So that that's 

229
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:42,960
kind of what I what I thought 
about that. 

230
00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:44,080
Sorry, do you want to say 
something? 

231
00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:45,600
Yeah. 
Do you think it's a good time to

232
00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,080
help define? 
Because a lot of times and we'd 

233
00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,600
have to clarify because during 
that time, but some of the 

234
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,240
evidence that was taken, there 
were still a decent number of 

235
00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,040
shoes out there that had a 
carbon fiber plate, but maybe 

236
00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,320
not a super foam. 
So is it a good time to define? 

237
00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,320
I'm curious to know how you 
define advanced footwear 

238
00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:03,400
technology. 
So a lot of the the commercial 

239
00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,440
or what most consumers are going
to know is something called a 

240
00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,640
super shoe. 
And often times, and Corey threw

241
00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,760
me for a loop before we were 
talking beforehand. 

242
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,000
And now my categorization of 
these shoes has totally been 

243
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:15,480
thrown. 
So I will try to go back to 

244
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,520
this, but know that I'm thinking
out loud as I say this going, is

245
00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,480
this a gap? 
So thank you, Corey. 

246
00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,200
This is why we love you. 
It's because you challenge me 

247
00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,720
all the time, which is great. 
So super racing shoes are 

248
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,760
generally thought of as these 
Gator weight shoes meant for 

249
00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:33,320
running fast. 
That's how they're usually 

250
00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,920
designed to my understanding. 
You can correct me on that, that

251
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,520
my understanding that they're 
designed based on faster running

252
00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,520
mechanics and they're meant to 
improve running economy, race 

253
00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,040
performance, all these different
things. 

254
00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,000
And they generally have 3 
components that are pretty 

255
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,840
important. 
A the 1st is some kind of what's

256
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,000
called the Super foam and 
there's a variety of things out 

257
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,040
there. 
Be it Kiba based foams, ATP, all

258
00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,560
these kind of things that are 
super resilient, very bouncy 

259
00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:00,280
foams meant to improve running 
economy. 

260
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,160
There's some kind of stiffening 
agent. 

261
00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,440
Carbon fiber is what most people
will talk about, although 

262
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,480
there's actually many variations
of this that still can apply. 

263
00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,080
And then obviously you've got 
geometry that works with all 

264
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,240
three of these to facilitate 
forward motion. 

265
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,360
On top of probably 4 things is a
much lighter weight, although 

266
00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,160
you'll see weight vary all over 
the place with this. 

267
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,160
That compares to something we 
were talking about beforehand 

268
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,480
called a super train, which is a
shoe that also can have these 

269
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,720
components, but is meant to run 
fast but also be used for slower

270
00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,600
efforts, be it daily training, 
whatever kind of stuff. 

271
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,120
And there's supposed to be the 
split category. 

272
00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,640
And then above all, this is 
advanced footwear technology. 

273
00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:40,600
And I don't know if I'm supposed
to say this yet. 

274
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:45,480
So this this part may get cut, 
but AI don't know him directly. 

275
00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,320
I met him at CSM, but JJ 
Hannigan is a professor at 

276
00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,280
Oregon State University in their
PT department. 

277
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,640
He's been doing a lot of great 
research on this and recently 

278
00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:57,160
sent out a survey trying to 
understand and define this 

279
00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:58,560
better. 
And JJ, if you're listening to 

280
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:00,720
this, I apologize. 
I don't know if you publish that

281
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:02,120
as I look for it every once in a
while. 

282
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,360
So call me out. 
I don't think it's out yet. 

283
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,600
So Corey, how? 
Because he was trying to help to

284
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,440
get experts to define what this 
is. 

285
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,560
But how do you define advanced 
footwear technology? 

286
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:19,240
Yeah, I, I think your, your 
description is is spot on and 

287
00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:26,640
and I define it in the article. 
Yeah, with maybe with maybe one 

288
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:35,160
important additional comment is 
I think the intended use of the 

289
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:40,280
product it it becomes important 
where advanced footwear 

290
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,800
technology is sort of this catch
all term for, you know, it's 

291
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,960
it's it's literally just 
advanced in technology with, you

292
00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,200
know, so anything that has 
advanced, you know, over the 

293
00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,560
years could be considered an 
advanced footwear technology, 

294
00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:54,920
so. 
And that needle, you're right 

295
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,840
that that needle's going to move
too as we keep going forward of.

296
00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,960
Course, yeah. 
So I would say almost always 

297
00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,640
there's some sort of super foam,
right, like you already 

298
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,160
mentioned, which means pretty, 
pretty soft and compliant, 

299
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,200
responsive and lightweight, 
right. 

300
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,360
So, yeah, and, and you know, 
some sort of stiffening agent 

301
00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,400
and, and some sort of, you know,
geometry that that facilitates 

302
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,080
forward motion. 
I think those are the kind of 

303
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:26,320
key attributes there. 
But there are, there's quite a 

304
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:31,240
bit of variability and I think 
that's probably 1 of one of the 

305
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:35,200
bigger arguments against the 
claim that super shoes cause 

306
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,320
injuries is which super shoe 
were we talking about? 

307
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,480
Are we talking about, you know, 
the 32 millimeter stack height 

308
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,080
in the heel with 32 millimeter 
stack height in the forefoot 

309
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,640
with a nylon, you know, or a 
plastic stiffening agent? 

310
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,400
Are are we talking about, you 
know, a, a shoe with a 

311
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,920
substantially softer foam 
that's, you know, 40mm in the, 

312
00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,040
in the heel and you know, 32 in 
the forefoot? 

313
00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:02,520
Are we talking about, you know, 
a, a, you know, 50 plus 

314
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:07,400
millimeter Sakai shoe with, 
with, you know, again, not a 

315
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,240
carbon fiber plate and not a 
plastic plate, you know, some 

316
00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,640
other stiffening agents. 
So all of these design elements 

317
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:17,319
we know conclusively 
longitudinal bending, stiffness,

318
00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:20,680
compliance, responsiveness, they
all have an influence on how you

319
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,640
run and the bio mechanics are 
running. 

320
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,839
So it's very difficult to say as
a blanket statement super shoes 

321
00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:31,160
cause or do not cause injuries 
when all of these design 

322
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:35,000
elements can vary and still fall
under the umbrella of super shoe

323
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,520
or even super trainer. 
And then we have the other 

324
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:39,760
issue. 
Is that how people respond to 

325
00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,360
them? 
That is also totally different. 

326
00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:45,400
And you mentioned this where 
there are responders and people 

327
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:49,120
that have very exaggerated by 
mechanical and physiological 

328
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:52,480
responses where they are super 
responders and they like get 

329
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,760
massive economy improvements. 
And then you have other people 

330
00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,840
that either don't respond to 
them at all and the mechanics 

331
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:00,560
don't change. 
I mean, they change a little bit

332
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,960
often, but not much. 
And you have the other people 

333
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,520
that actually do far worse that 
they really struggle in these 

334
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,560
shoes. 
They have, you know, alter 

335
00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:10,560
running economy that may or may 
not improve. 

336
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,680
Sometimes it can be worse. 
And so understanding like when 

337
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,000
you when we say, hey, this 
increase injuries, the question 

338
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,200
is who? 
Because we know all these 

339
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,080
different components and it's 
not consistent between companies

340
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,200
and shoes. 
How do we know exactly what 

341
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,400
component with each person? 
So it gets much more muddy 

342
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:29,640
there. 
But yeah, anyway. 

343
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:35,040
Even if you take the same person
in the same shoe and have them 

344
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,160
run 5 minute per mile versus 10 
minute per mile, their bio 

345
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,920
mechanics will vary very 
drastically. 

346
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:48,160
So even within a single person, 
it becomes very difficult to to 

347
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:53,320
draw rod sweeping conclusions. 
So yeah, so anyway, moving, 

348
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,440
moving on through the articles. 
So the, the the idea becomes, 

349
00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,480
well, why navicular stress 
fracture? 

350
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:01,720
You know, and I think it's a, 
it's a valid question. 

351
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:07,960
So is there some sort of 
mechanism behind this injury 

352
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,040
that could be tied back to 
something involving footwear, 

353
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,000
you know, because, you know, the
navicular is a bone in the foot.

354
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,440
So is there is there a linkage 
here? 

355
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:24,800
So that leads us to this really 
interesting article from 20. 

356
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,240
I'm going to say 2018. 
Sorry it it's in the article. 

357
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,120
So feel free to pull it up while
while you're hopefully you're 

358
00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:33,080
not listening to this while 
you're driving and pull. 

359
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:34,560
Pull up the article and then 
take a peek. 

360
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,760
But there there will be a quiz 
at the end, by the way, so you 

361
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:37,960
should be taking No, I'm just. 
Kidding, right? 

362
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,240
I'm just kidding. 
So so this article was out of 

363
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:44,160
Oregon. 
It was Becker was was the first 

364
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,240
author. 
And with this, this is just a 

365
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:48,280
brilliant paper. 
I love it. 

366
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:53,800
And what they did is they 
studied 2 groups of runners and 

367
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,560
you know, this, this doesn't 
quite predate super shoes, but 

368
00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,120
it definitely is, you know, 
very, very early in the age of 

369
00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:00,840
super shoes. 
There are no super shoes in, in 

370
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,000
this study. 
I was just looking at a group of

371
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,720
runners. 
One, one group had suffered an 

372
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,200
avicular stress fracture in, in 
their life and the other group 

373
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,480
had not. 
And they matched the two groups 

374
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:17,600
based on like age, like I think 
it was total running mileage and

375
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,760
I think also foot strike type. 
So they had pretty, pretty good 

376
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,240
controls and. 
What's also very interesting, 

377
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,720
what makes the study cool, is 
that each injured runner also 

378
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,920
serves as their own control 
because they have an affected 

379
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,640
limb and an unaffected limb. 
So now what you can do is 

380
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:38,960
compare within an injured 
person, but then also across the

381
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,960
injured group to the never 
injured group, which which is 

382
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,120
what makes this really, really 
fascinating. 

383
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,400
And what they wanted to do was 
determine is there any 

384
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,080
fundamental differences in the 
bio mechanics of these runners, 

385
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:57,520
whether it be injured to 
uninjured or within the injured 

386
00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,080
runner from their healthy foot 
to the affected foot. 

387
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,520
And what they found were there 
some there were some small but 

388
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,960
statistically significant 
differences from the, you know, 

389
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,960
the foot that had the history of
injury to the healthy foot and 

390
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,520
then also from the foot that had
a history of injury to the 

391
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:20,080
healthy control group. 
And what the primary difference 

392
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:25,560
was, was that the injured foot 
went through more about 5° more 

393
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:31,160
of rear foot E version. 
So that is a big component of, 

394
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,000
of pronation. 
So interesting, right? 

395
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:40,880
And why, why does that matter? 
Like why, why is pronating more 

396
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,800
a potential injury mechanism? 
Well, the tibialis posterior 

397
00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:47,320
inserts directly onto the 
navicular, right? 

398
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,320
I know Matt knows this and I 
know the, the, the chunk of the 

399
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,480
audience that's, you know, PTS 
and DPTS are all kind of nodding

400
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,240
and yeah, yeah, of course. 
And inserts right on that, right

401
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,760
on that bone. 
So if there is more range of 

402
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,200
motion, potentially this muscle 
is pulling harder on this bone, 

403
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,880
putting more stress on that 
bone, which potentially could be

404
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:11,000
an injury mechanism for for 
particularly stress fracture 

405
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:18,640
risk at the navicular. 
However, what the authors can't 

406
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:25,200
necessarily determine is was 
this injury the cause of or the 

407
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,880
result of the navicular stress 
fracture? 

408
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:33,400
In other words, did getting that
injury cause you to change how 

409
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:38,520
your foot moves following the 
recovery from that injury? 

410
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,040
Now the navicular is a stress 
fracture, there is often 

411
00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:47,600
surgically repaired. 
So that surgery and that pretty 

412
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:52,920
comprehensive rehabilitation to 
get back to running that can 

413
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,760
potentially result in 
differences in how that foot 

414
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,680
moves. 
So while very interesting and 

415
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,200
certainly statistically 
significant, we can't 

416
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:10,120
necessarily say whether the that
foot moved differently prior to 

417
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,720
the first in the vicular stress 
fracture that that injured 

418
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,840
cohort received. 
What are the challenges too, and

419
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,480
we know this from some prior 
evidence, is actually people 

420
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,520
that pronate typically have a 
lower rate of stress fractures 

421
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,120
compared to those who don't as 
much because pronation is 

422
00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:29,720
actually a method of fairly 
efficient shock absorption as 

423
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,560
long as you have good control. 
And the injuries usually 

424
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,560
associated with pronation tend 
to be pretty different compared 

425
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,640
to those of those who do not. 
And this is only describing 1 

426
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,400
normal movement of the foot and 
ankle. 

427
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,680
OK, there's lots of other parts 
and this, this is multi 

428
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,520
triplanar, multiple joints going
on that the foot is of foot and 

429
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,760
ankle, a complex area. 
So just trying to dumb this down

430
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,960
to 1 joint and one motion is not
a good idea. 

431
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,160
But we do know that people who 
don't tend to pronate as much 

432
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,080
actually tend to have a higher 
risk of stress fracture type 

433
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:03,560
injuries. 
So that would go, hey, wait a 

434
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,600
minute, this is going a little 
bit opposite to what we might 

435
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,160
think. 
And in the research on soft 

436
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,080
shoes versus firm shoes is also 
not very good on this area as 

437
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:14,720
well. 
So that's, it's interesting to 

438
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,560
me, but yeah. 
Yeah. 

439
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:21,120
So, so that brings us, you know,
a little bit closer to to today,

440
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,600
you know, in the research world 
and you know, you know, the the 

441
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,600
researcher that you've already 
brought up, you know, JJ 

442
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,680
Hannigan, who I've never met but
loved reading this paper. 

443
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:36,600
So that sounds great. 
But yeah, so it was a specific 

444
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:42,440
study looking at OK, we've we've
seen the articles that are 

445
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:48,120
suggesting that, you know, this 
is a potential injury that could

446
00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:52,120
be of interest for, you know, 
the Super shoe, you know, 

447
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,320
athlete, that the the athlete 
using the Super shoe. 

448
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,720
And we've seen that there's a 
potential injury mechanism here,

449
00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:00,880
you know, increased rear foot E 
version. 

450
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:06,000
So let's take a cohort of 
athletes and have them run, you 

451
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,640
know, in a non super shoe and in
a super shoe and then look at 

452
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,320
the differences in their bio 
mechanics. 

453
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,720
Yep, very, very nice, nicely 
controlled experimental design. 

454
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,840
Interestingly, reading through 
this, they must have had some 

455
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:21,680
pretty exceptional athletes in 
this cohort. 

456
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,000
Matt, you're smiling. 
I guess you know something about

457
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:26,120
the the experiment. 
Yeah. 

458
00:25:26,120 --> 00:25:28,480
Well, I mean, they're doing it 
in Bend OR so of course there's 

459
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:30,800
some great people, fast people 
up there. 

460
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,480
Yeah, but I, I, I hey, that's. 
No judgement. 

461
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,600
It's. 
They they specifically tested 

462
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,040
everyone so they could have the 
athletes running at marathon 

463
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,000
pace, which ended up being 
somewhere around like a 230 

464
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,480
marathon was the average athlete
in in the experiment. 

465
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,640
So. 
So these are pretty finally two 

466
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,520
death like machines. 
Shall we say it? 

467
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,000
Sounds like it's the average 
person walking around downtown 

468
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,240
Bend OR so that make that I've 
never been so I have. 

469
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,720
I've actually not been either 
but from what I hear but despite

470
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,160
living in Oregon but from what 
I'm hearing about it, this this 

471
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:05,600
tracks it makes. 
Sense yeah, so and you know, so 

472
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:10,320
I believe their control shoe was
the New Balance Minimus, which 

473
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,760
is a pretty different shoe than 
a super shoe. 

474
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,800
You know, it's, it's not even 
like a default, you know, 

475
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,880
standard daily trainer. 
But this is, this is a pretty 

476
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,080
extreme delta from, from the, 
you know, the next percent, 

477
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,480
which was the Super shoe they 
used in this, in this study. 

478
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,320
And and what they found was that
the athletes in the next 

479
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,680
percent, so the Super shoe from 
Nike, the athletes went through 

480
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,200
a larger range of motion at the 
rear foot and inversion, 

481
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:44,200
inversion, which interesting 
again, kind of a kind of weaving

482
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:49,440
A consistent tail here, but the 
athletes didn't Evert more. 

483
00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:53,240
They were more inverted on 
initial contact. 

484
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,680
So they went through a larger 
range of motion, but they didn't

485
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,000
go through more Evers or more 
you could think of it as 

486
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:03,240
pronation. 
So that's interesting. 

487
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,760
And what they also found was 
that there wasn't greater joint 

488
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:12,160
torque here, which probably 
suggests pretty strongly, not 

489
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,440
definitively, but pretty 
strongly that there wasn't 

490
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,720
excess load at the tibialis 
posterior tendon. 

491
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,080
So what does that mean that, you
know, the the next percent shoe 

492
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:29,000
absolutely elicits a different 
foot motion than the New Balance

493
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,800
minimus? 
I would, I would, that would be 

494
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:32,440
my hypothesis that that would 
happen. 

495
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,480
Those are pretty different 
shoes, but that it seems 

496
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,360
unlikely that this would cause 
greater stresses at the 

497
00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:43,960
navicular. 
That's, that's my kind of 

498
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,880
interpretation of of the results
from there. 

499
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:53,320
So, you know, I don't think 
there's nothing here. 

500
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,880
I think it's, it's an 
interesting topic there. 

501
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:57,920
There's a lot of research. 
There's a, you know, there, 

502
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,680
there are a lot of studies 
suggesting, hey, this could be 

503
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,560
an area of interest. 
So that's where I think it's 

504
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,680
good to kind of pause it before 
I go too deep down the rabbit 

505
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,240
hole and and maybe Matt, you 
want to bring up some, some, 

506
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,920
some comments before, before I 
draw my. 

507
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,320
Final conclusion, that's OK. 
So there's there's a couple 

508
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,000
things here and some of the 
things that we need to know is 

509
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,000
like torque is one thing. 
We also know that when it comes 

510
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,840
to pronation, it's not the total
amount that is usually the 

511
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,800
problem, but the actual velocity
of which it happens. 

512
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,640
And again, this research is not 
in the bone, it's really looking

513
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,600
at the tendon of the post tip 
itself. 

514
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,160
That like his tendons and 
muscles tend to be very 

515
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,480
sensitive to fast motion. 
So that's called a fast 

516
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,600
eccentric motion, IE the muscle 
is being lengthened very 

517
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,960
quickly. 
Is the greatest stresses that 

518
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,040
you can put through this area. 
That's where plyometrics are 

519
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,560
such a potent training tool. 
If you used probably they can 

520
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,680
either injury if you do them 
poorly or they can build a lot 

521
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,560
of resiliency if done correctly 
because they really condition 

522
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,000
muscle tendon did the muscle 
tendon is used to handle really,

523
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,560
really good stresses and forces 
because they're so intense, 

524
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,160
which is why velocity tends to 
make a much bigger impact. 

525
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,200
And something we really pay 
attention to a lot, lot more 

526
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,040
than how much. 
Because if somebody pronates and

527
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,120
they go into and out of it, we 
found that if you can control it

528
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,760
regardless of the amount and you
get back out of it, you're fine.

529
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,680
But if it's excessively fast and
nobody's actually defined how 

530
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,720
fast or what that means, that 
may be an issue. 

531
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,120
But we don't know a lot about, 
hey, how does that then 

532
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,560
translate to pulling out a bone,
knowing that bones can also 

533
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,520
adapt and knowing that each 
person that runs is going to 

534
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,800
have totally different like 
amounts of what am I trying to 

535
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,960
say? 
Like I'm, I'm getting lost here 

536
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:43,520
for a SEC because I've got so 
many things going through my 

537
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,880
head, but each person's going to
have a different amount. 

538
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:47,600
Each person's going to have 
different stresses. 

539
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,080
You know, how do you control, 
you need to control for a group 

540
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,280
that probably had a history of 
pronation related injuries, 

541
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,720
knowing they've had trouble 
controlling that and compare 

542
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,080
that to a group that's healthy, 
which really hasn't been done. 

543
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,200
And then you probably have to 
go, you need to follow them over

544
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,760
a while and see, hey, which 
group actually has an invector 

545
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:06,200
stress injury, if they even show
up. 

546
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,200
And I will tell you from 
following the George Fox team 

547
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,320
for the cross country and track 
teams for over a year, none of 

548
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,520
them really get that injured. 
And so it's like, you know, 

549
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,680
sometimes you have you have 
nothing that you can walk with 

550
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,320
because they don't get injured 
and it doesn't tell you 

551
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,320
anything. 
So this research is really hard 

552
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,000
to do, but it's also a warning 
story of why you have to be 

553
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,760
really careful drawing definite 
conclusions because there's 

554
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,200
probably some subgroups in there
that maybe the answer is yes, 

555
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,080
but we don't know how to 
identify those yet. 

556
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,840
However, I'm still going to 
challenge Corey in just a 

557
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,240
second. 
So let's let's land this and 

558
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,520
then we'll take off in another 
plane and see how this goes. 

559
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,360
Yeah. 
So approaching the runway here, 

560
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:48,720
so let let's say everything 
we've discussed, caveats and 

561
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,480
all. 
We'll we'll take a face value. 

562
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,920
Yeah, let's say that all super 
shoes elicit a very similar 

563
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:57,960
response. 
We know that's not true. 

564
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,640
But let's say they're all 
remote, somewhat compliant, 

565
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:06,520
They're all, they all result in 
a similar effect to an athlete. 

566
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,200
And let's assume that that 
effect results in greater 

567
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:15,000
stresses more more load in the 
tibialis posterior tendon, and 

568
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,680
greater stresses on the 
navicular bone. 

569
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,480
Let's let's take all of that and
just say yes for for enough 

570
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,320
people, that is meaningfully 
true. 

571
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:32,960
Even if that is the case, more 
stress on an area of the body 

572
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,600
does not mean that that area 
will be injured. 

573
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:42,640
And this goes back to like day 
one hour, one minute 1 of any 

574
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,600
exercise science, kinesiology, 
biology class that, you know, 

575
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,960
bio mechanics class that any any
of us have ever taken. 

576
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,440
If you if you have and it's 
specific adaptation to oppose 

577
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,400
demand and that demand is 
related to the frequency, 

578
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,880
intensity, time and type, right?
Everyone has probably heard this

579
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:06,360
at some point. 
So A at any tissue, any tissue 

580
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:13,520
of the body can potentially 
suffer an overuse injury if 

581
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,640
you've subjected it to too much 
stress with insufficient 

582
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:22,880
recovery. 
So the alternative to that is 

583
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,200
you apply stress to it, but you 
provide sufficient recovery, 

584
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,000
whereas now that tissue now has 
the opportunity to recover and 

585
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,960
become more robust, you know, 
more resilient to additional 

586
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,120
stressors. 
So in, in my opinion, and I 

587
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,040
think this applies to most in my
opinion, overuse injuries 

588
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:48,880
whereby if you apply too much 
stress to 1 area of the body 

589
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,040
that with insufficient recovery,
you are way more likely to 

590
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,680
become injured. 
So that could be true with the 

591
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,040
navicular, could be the Achilles
tendon, it could be the plantar 

592
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,760
fascia and you know, the 
Patella, femoral joint, all of 

593
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,280
these areas are potentially at 
risk. 

594
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,480
So that that's where I came up 
finally after I wrote the paper 

595
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,720
with the title of the paper, 
where in my opinion, super shoes

596
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:17,760
don't cause injuries. 
Running. 

597
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,560
I wanted to say running causes 
injuries. 

598
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,880
You know, because running causes
injuries. 

599
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,440
Running applies stresses to the 
body. 

600
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,200
Shoes can potentially modify 
that stress. 

601
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,400
And in some ways you might be 
moving stress from an area of 

602
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,200
the body that was on the brink 
of an injury and you've shifted 

603
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,840
stress away from that area of 
the body and now you are less 

604
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,680
likely to become injured. 
Or it could be the exact 

605
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,960
opposite. 
Now you've introduced any 

606
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:52,400
intervention to the body whereby
it is shifting stresses from one

607
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,520
area to a less robust area and 
now you're at significantly 

608
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,440
higher risk. 
That could be the vehicular, 

609
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,440
could be any other area in the 
lower extremity. 

610
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:05,280
So in, in my opinion, I think we
need to be more careful and I 

611
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,360
think all of this research is, 
is very important understanding 

612
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:12,199
what design elements of a super 
shoe result in what changes to 

613
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:14,920
1's bio mechanics, which result 
in what changes to the stress 

614
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,719
profile. 
But then it's on you know, the 

615
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:24,600
the coaches, the athletes, the 
the PTS, the DPTS, you know the 

616
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,320
the healthcare practitioners to 
understand how to modify and 

617
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,080
manipulate these the stress 
profile to allow an athlete to 

618
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,880
recover or to become more robust
and resilient to injuries in the

619
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,800
future. 
So I would I totally agree with 

620
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,280
you on this and one of the major
reasons why I wanted to get you 

621
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,040
on here and talk about this is 
that, and I say this as someone 

622
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,480
studying bio mechanics and 
getting extremely frustrated 

623
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,960
that you know the the master's 
running research I have done, I 

624
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,639
found no difference in running 
bio mechanics between the 

625
00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:57,040
master's runners that had 
Achilles sonopathy and the ones 

626
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,320
that didn't. 
It wasn't until I actually had 

627
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,640
them do non running related 
activities that I actually 

628
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,560
started to see some differences.
And then the I got questioned on

629
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,440
this, which where I where I've 
been for the last year going, 

630
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,200
Hey, you use this non running 
related activity. 

631
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:11,640
How do you that's related to 
running at all? 

632
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,000
And I went. 
Oh, I have to go. 

633
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,200
Study that for a little bit. 
They still published the paper. 

634
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,760
Thank goodness I came up with 
some excuse going this is the 

635
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,640
general standard for sport 
testing. 

636
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,960
Give me a break. 
I'm just trying to get this 

637
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:25,880
published and somehow they took 
that. 

638
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,080
But bio mechanics doesn't tell 
this the full story. 

639
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,120
And for anybody that's followed 
bio mechanics research for a 

640
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,360
while, you, you will know this, 
that a lot of times they'll go, 

641
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,560
you know, we have all these 
biomechanical things. 

642
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,080
One study will say, hey, this 
might be related, another might 

643
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,760
not. 
And running injuries are multi 

644
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,040
factorial. 
And Corey mentioned this, 

645
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:45,720
running has a really high injury
risk. 

646
00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:48,480
Depending on what study you 
read, that can be anywhere from 

647
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,760
40% to 80% of runners. 
If I've even seen one, that's 

648
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,160
like 90%. 
And they vary all over the place

649
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,840
depending on population. 
But like we it's a fairly high 

650
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:58,480
injury and that's because 
running, there's a lot of 

651
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:00,400
impact. 
Once you get comfortable with 

652
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,400
it, it's fairly easy to 
overtrain. 

653
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,120
And I will tell you that from 
personal experience. 

654
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,920
And it's hard to know because a 
lot of people that run, it's 

655
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,880
hard to know when to back off, 
what recovery looks like. 

656
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,680
It's hard to balance this with 
getting adequate sleep, getting 

657
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,520
adequate nutrition, getting all 
that right. 

658
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,240
At the same time, this stuff 
happens because you also have 

659
00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:22,000
stress in daily life and it's 
injuries are multifactorial. 

660
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,160
And all the research trying to 
define running related injuries 

661
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:27,760
has come to the same conclusion 
that running related injuries 

662
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:32,080
are multi factorial things and 
there's not one single 

663
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:33,440
component. 
Are there things that are 

664
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:35,160
actually really high risk 
factors? 

665
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,480
Yeah. 
Inadequate nutrition, not 

666
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,560
sleeping, overtraining, actually
sometimes in some literature is.

667
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,040
And sometimes actually having a 
high running volume can actually

668
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,480
be protective. 
But if you take that running 

669
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,080
volume and suddenly jump it up 
quicker than your body can adapt

670
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,080
to, then yes. 
There's a paper that just came 

671
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,000
out and I'm forgetting the 
author's name that like this 

672
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,480
they suggest one of the biggest 
risk for running related injury 

673
00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:02,160
was a single sudden intense like
increase in either volume or 

674
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:03,600
intensity. 
And it's like, yeah, that makes 

675
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:05,760
sense. 
You over exceeded your body's 

676
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,760
capacity to adapt to that. 
You didn't get, you exceed. 

677
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,040
It's like it's far beyond. 
And now you've instead of 

678
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,800
getting this nice, like you did 
some tissue damage and now you 

679
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:15,800
get the Super compensation 
effect where your body gets 

680
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:17,600
better. 
It's you're so far down on the 

681
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,240
red that your your recovery 
period, you're still in the red.

682
00:37:21,240 --> 00:37:23,760
And then you went to go train 
harder and then gap. 

683
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,480
So injuries are multifactorial. 
And I say this as someone, 

684
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,880
again, who's a bio, who's doing 
bio mechanics, it's really hard 

685
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:32,880
to pinpoint this up. 
And that's why you have to take 

686
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,640
it with a grain of salt. 
So, yeah, and I'm sure you see 

687
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,040
the same thing going, you know, 
when you test bio mechanics's 

688
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,000
shoes, like it, as you 
mentioned, each individual's 

689
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,760
totally different. 
Their response is different. 

690
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,040
The response even within 
individuals different at 

691
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,280
different speeds. 
And I would bet even sometimes 

692
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,840
on different days or weeks or 
months, it just varies, you 

693
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:51,560
know? 
Like what? 

694
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,960
For the teams where you. 
Entered the lab Great awesome. 

695
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,760
It's like for those people that 
are non scientists, just know 

696
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,800
how hard it is to do good 
science and how frustrating it 

697
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,800
can be sometimes you go, you 
know, I'm just trying to get 

698
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,840
like somewhat of an answer. 
Like can you just throw me a 

699
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,720
like just a give me a break 
here. 

700
00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:18,280
But so anything else you want to
say on your on this before I 

701
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:19,840
take this in a slightly 
different direction? 

702
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:25,480
Yeah, No, I think yeah, just 
just to reiterate frequency, 

703
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,640
intensity, time and type 
specific adaptation to impose 

704
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,560
demand those those two kind of 
core fundamental principles can,

705
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:37,240
can teach and and inform a lot 
of research. 

706
00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:40,360
So I, I think bio mechanics 
research is extremely important.

707
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,240
I do it because it helps you 
understand what those stresses 

708
00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:47,200
are. 
But then it's on a large group 

709
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,800
of individuals to make sure that
those stresses are applied. 

710
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,520
I'll say quote UN quote 
correctly in in the right, in 

711
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,200
the right dose with sufficient 
recovery. 

712
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,040
And those other 23 hours of the 
day are important too. 

713
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,040
And yeah, I think for that 
reason, injury research will 

714
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,920
will continue to live on because
it will we will never come to 

715
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,960
the final conclusion. 
No, that that the bio mechanics 

716
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,560
research guys have made sure of 
that for sure yeah. 

717
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,600
So I'm going to take this as a 
slightly different route. 

718
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,080
So I'm going to try to challenge
you on this, even though I I 

719
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,720
completely agree with you so. 
It's not a fun debate, if you'd 

720
00:39:23,720 --> 00:39:25,080
agree. 
I exactly, it's boring. 

721
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,240
It's like, all right, we're done
it, you know, all right, goodbye

722
00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:29,720
everybody. 
No, so one of the things that we

723
00:39:29,720 --> 00:39:33,040
know about these shoes and this 
has been well documented, is 

724
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,520
they really decrease delayed 
onset muscle soreness. 

725
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,120
They just, they improve running 
economy and some people they 

726
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,920
actually decrease fatigue. 
So people are able to get a much

727
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,400
higher training volume and much 
more intense efforts in these 

728
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,120
types of shoes then they had 
previously. 

729
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,200
And we're we're seeing that 
consistently, not just in the 

730
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,400
evidence but testimonially. 
There's a lot of athletes going,

731
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,240
I can, I can hit much higher 
volumes, I can hit harder 

732
00:39:57,240 --> 00:40:00,280
workouts than before. 
Is that necessarily a good 

733
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,000
thing? 
We haven't really concluded that

734
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,600
either, because we know that 
again. 

735
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,560
Specific adaptation to 
adaptations to specific imposed 

736
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:10,560
demands. 
We know that some of those 

737
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,640
adaptations are good. 
And so maybe there's a time and 

738
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,600
place to use these tools to 
decrease fatigue and go farther.

739
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,720
There may also be a place as 
Justin Maddie's was looking at, 

740
00:40:19,720 --> 00:40:21,920
who did some great, great stuff 
in his master's research, 

741
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:25,960
looking at, Hey, you know, when 
you use super shoes, there can 

742
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,880
be in certain tissues less, a 
little bit less adaptation, like

743
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,480
again, elasticity, some kind of 
muscle factors compared to more 

744
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,920
traditional shoes, which makes 
sense if it's making you more 

745
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,360
economical. 
There's going to be a trade off 

746
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,320
somewhere. 
Now my challenge is, and I'm 

747
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,040
going to agree with you, but I'm
also going to put an Aster sign.

748
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,280
Do you think that these shoes 
increase the risk for people to 

749
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,800
overtrain? 
So I'm not saying, and I agree 

750
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,400
with you, I'm not saying the 
shoes are the problem or the 

751
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,680
tools are the problems, but the 
tools in the hands of people 

752
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,880
that don't know how to use them.
Is there a risk that the, that 

753
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:05,680
it allows them to extend beyond 
where they possibly can? 

754
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:07,000
And I'm going to give some 
background of this. 

755
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:08,920
One of the things that I've been
toying with and somebody can 

756
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,240
take this because I haven't 
figured out how to really look 

757
00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:13,440
at this and like actually 
research this yet. 

758
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,440
Mostly because again, I have a 
group of runners near me that 

759
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,040
never get stress fracture. 
So I don't have any anybody to 

760
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,200
study. 
And I don't really, I kind of, I

761
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:22,760
don't really want that to change
honestly. 

762
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,840
Like preferably because they're 
really tough to rehab from and 

763
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:28,080
they're really, they take a long
time. 

764
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,640
And it's one of those things 
where people want specific 

765
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:32,040
timelines of when they can start
running. 

766
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:36,040
It's like you can't start even 
like doing like jumps and stuff 

767
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,320
until you have 0 symptoms. 
And that's a non argument. 

768
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,760
You can't be running with like a
two or three out of 10 because 

769
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:44,560
it's just all the literature's 
been. 

770
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,040
It has to be 0. 
It's one of the few places where

771
00:41:48,240 --> 00:41:49,840
we try not to make pain a big 
deal. 

772
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:51,640
That's one of the places like 
we're going to make this a big 

773
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,040
deal because that's the only way
to know this thing is calm down.

774
00:41:54,040 --> 00:42:00,280
So these are not fun, but bone 
tends to heal a lot slower than 

775
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,840
it tends to adapt a lot slower 
than other tissues. 

776
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,320
Say like even like tendons are 
pretty slow, right? 

777
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,200
They take like my patients that 
have tendinopathy, I always warn

778
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,000
them, hey, you want to make a 
real change in these tendons, 

779
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,000
it's going to take you nine 
months of consistent loading to 

780
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,800
change the stuff. 
Bone can actually take even 

781
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,360
longer than that to make true 
adaptations to the tissue. 

782
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,200
And you know, we know that there
might be some tendonous changes 

783
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,280
that hasn't been studied with 
this, this what we're trying. 

784
00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:29,400
But we know that even though 
your, your muscles adapt really 

785
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,840
quick, like it doesn't take that
long for like 4 to six weeks Max

786
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,920
for them to usually recover, get
adapt, get stronger really 

787
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:38,480
quick. 
They're pretty quick tissues. 

788
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,720
But is it possible that people 
won't feel that muscular fatigue

789
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,800
and that they might take these 
super shoes and extend beyond 

790
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,280
where they're capable and not 
realize you actually don't have 

791
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,040
to have pain for a bone stress 
injury to start? 

792
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,760
And we've actually seen that 
where we've seen like when I was

793
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,280
at Cal State LA, when I was 
talking to people at USC down in

794
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,480
Southern California, they do 
diagnostic ultrasounds on some 

795
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,400
of the cross country runners and
the runners like I've never, I 

796
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,400
don't have any pain. 
They're like you have an active,

797
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,880
like old or current stress 
fracture in your foot, Like I 

798
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,560
don't feel anything. 
So is there any possibility that

799
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:15,240
these shoes allow us to over it 
overextend A potentially put 

800
00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:18,600
certain people at risk? 
Yeah. 

801
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,240
I think the short answer to that
is yes. 

802
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:30,600
I my follow up to that would be,
is it the Super shoe that's 

803
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,200
causing the injury or is it the 
overuse? 

804
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,400
It's, it's, it's still boils 
down to, in my opinion, of 

805
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:41,320
course, that it, it still 
becomes an overuse injury from 

806
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:47,200
the stresses of running. 
So yeah, I think that's a 100% 

807
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,680
consideration. 
Probably not for the average 

808
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:53,920
runner. 
This is probably more skewed 

809
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,880
toward a more athletic, you 
know, higher performance side of

810
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:02,520
the population. 
But yeah, no, I I 100% agree 

811
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:07,160
that in addition to these 
biomechanical changes, what 

812
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:11,680
these shoes can potentially 
allow you to do can potentially 

813
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,200
also put you at a higher risk. 
Because because there's the 

814
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,120
challenge of normally with like 
most traditional especially like

815
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,240
if you did the same thing you 
did like JJ Hannigan study, if 

816
00:44:21,240 --> 00:44:24,640
you tried to extend as far as 
you could that you did in a 

817
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,720
super shoe with a minimal shoe, 
you would know it, right? 

818
00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:30,840
You'd be like sore muscle, 
either muscle like strain or 

819
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,960
muscle soreness would probably 
stop you a lot or that's not the

820
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:35,800
same for everybody. 
Just because when the minimalist

821
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,000
stuff came around, we saw a ton 
of metatarsal stress fractures 

822
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,040
show up there. 
So this might not be any 

823
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:43,200
different because people are 
still going to overtrain. 

824
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,440
So I already know Corey's going 
to checkmate me on this thing 

825
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,480
and I already know how, but I'm 
just, I'm going to still keep 

826
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,280
this argument up by the way. 
But is it possible that it's 

827
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,960
harder to tell when you're 
overtraining because of the 

828
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,800
known decrease in muscle 
soreness and some other factors 

829
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:02,280
that we typically understand to 
be factors of like kind of like 

830
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,280
a either a yellow or or red red 
light with this? 

831
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:13,040
Stuff Yeah yeah it's a great 
comment yes I, I, I agree you 

832
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:19,960
know I, I, I do think that I do 
think that there is a very, very

833
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,520
similar answer to to your last 
question yes. 

834
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:27,040
I, I think that these these 
technologies you know these 

835
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:33,920
these super shoes can can 
potentially maybe reduce the you

836
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,960
know RPE the rating of perceived
exertion or the you know post 

837
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:43,040
workout a perceived soreness. 
Certainly we, we, we know that 

838
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,560
to be the case. 
So yeah, I, I, I think 

839
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,920
absolutely that that is a 
potential consideration and a 

840
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:55,800
potential risk. 
But I think that if the new 

841
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,400
intervention is carefully and 
methodically introduced into a 

842
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,680
training program, then I think 
what you do is significantly 

843
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,920
mitigate that risk. 
And it's funny that you bring 

844
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,880
up, you know, the, the 
minimalism barefoot trend. 

845
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:10,520
I, I was in grad school during 
that trend. 

846
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:13,520
So it was a really fun time to 
be kind of a young budding bio 

847
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:17,480
mechanics researcher. 
And spoiler, I'm almost certain 

848
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,640
a future article for for my sub 
stack is going to be. 

849
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:25,920
Foot strike type doesn't cause 
overuse injury, overuse does. 

850
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,680
Basically the exact same title 
but replacing Super Shoe and. 

851
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,600
We have. 
A decade plus more data you know

852
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:34,480
to you know, and in support of 
that. 

853
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,240
I I'm very upset that that has 
still yet to die and I still see

854
00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:41,680
every other post somebody's 
going, yeah, you have to use 

855
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:43,680
this foot strike and that's 
going to make you injury 

856
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:45,400
freedom. 
Like that's not how this works. 

857
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,600
You're just, it's, it's kind of,
to be honest, the Super shoes 

858
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,600
are like the geometry and you 
mentioned this earlier is you're

859
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,440
not getting rid of forces, even 
if you feel less sort, you're 

860
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:57,400
just moving them other places 
and that there's no such thing 

861
00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,840
as a magic bullet. 
There's still going to be risks 

862
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,440
and no matter what technology we
come up with, I would bet money 

863
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,440
that our injury rates aren't 
going to change. 

864
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,360
Is that the shoe fault? 
No, it's us still doing. 

865
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,120
We're human beings. 
We do dumb stuff. 

866
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,360
If you give us an inch, we're 
going to go take a mile and 

867
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,400
you're like, oh, that's why. 
So, yeah, I would agree that I 

868
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,000
think until we have a better 
understand, the general public 

869
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,320
has a better understanding of 
it's like the stress strain 

870
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,960
relationship and like the the 
stress recovery thing of how to 

871
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,560
actually get better. 
I I agree that I think the 

872
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:30,520
injury rates are going to be 
still super high. 

873
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:32,400
You were saying? 
Yeah. 

874
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:37,440
No, it's, it's just in that era 
a lot of people were saying, you

875
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,680
know, you need to run barefoot, 
it's better. 

876
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:44,960
It will cure all your injuries. 
But it's very important that if 

877
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:50,360
you do that, you, you walk 
barefoot for 5 minutes day one 

878
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:51,960
and then you take a recovery 
day. 

879
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,000
And then day 2 you walk barefoot
for 10 minutes and then you take

880
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,720
a recovery day. 
And then day five you run for 

881
00:47:57,720 --> 00:47:59,400
one minute and then walk for two
minutes. 

882
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,840
And, and what you're doing is 
just you're very carefully, 

883
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,520
methodically increasing the 
stresses that are applied to the

884
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:08,800
body. 
And then if you recover 

885
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:10,880
appropriately from those 
stresses, it will allow you to 

886
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:12,680
do more. 
You're basically three teaching 

887
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,280
your body to run from scratch. 
So yeah, of course, if you're 

888
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,320
very careful with how you apply 
stresses, you could probably 

889
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,960
build your way up to running a 
marathon on road barefoot. 

890
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:25,680
Yeah, but did anybody do that 
though? 

891
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,280
Everybody just grabbed a pair of
Vibrant 5 fingers and went and 

892
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:30,360
ran the exact same outage they 
were running previously. 

893
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,440
And so, you know, because people
don't make good decisions, they 

894
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,080
don't listen, they just go 
straight into stuff. 

895
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,040
And it's the same thing I talked
about, you know, tendons taking 

896
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,200
that long to adapt. 
If there's some good evidence 

897
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,120
that suggests if you want to 
transition into minimal running,

898
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:45,200
it's going to take you. 
At least if you want to do it 

899
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,120
safely, it takes you at least 
six to nine months. 

900
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:49,920
And you cannot rush that or you 
risk injury. 

901
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,680
That's how it goes. 
Too fast, too soon, too much, 

902
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:54,840
too quick. 
Yep, Yep. 

903
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,120
So I think, you know, fill in 
the blank that does anything 

904
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,160
'cause overuse injuries. 
And I would say, well, it kind 

905
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:03,880
of depends on what you did, 
right? 

906
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,280
You know the the context is 
everything, not just the shoe 

907
00:49:07,720 --> 00:49:08,800
that you're wearing. 
Right. 

908
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,000
Do you think there are any 
factors that people could pay 

909
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,840
attention? 
So again, because soreness may 

910
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,280
be mitigated by this and some of
the more traditional factors 

911
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,600
that we can't, that most of us 
kind of know where to go. 

912
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:22,840
Oh, OK, I'm sore. 
This kind of aches a little bit.

913
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,440
Now I need to back off since 
some of this might get 

914
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,520
mitigated, although there's 
still changes happening. 

915
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:29,800
Are you think there's any other 
science that people could pay 

916
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,480
attention to or is it just, hey,
you just got to be smart and 

917
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,080
focus more on thinking about the
stimulus in necessary how 

918
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:42,720
exactly you feel? 
Yeah, a lot of a lot of people 

919
00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:46,640
in the running world might say 
listen to your body as something

920
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:48,720
that's very important. 
But I know a lot of runners in 

921
00:49:48,720 --> 00:49:53,440
my personal life who ignore that
message from their body. 

922
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:55,880
So it's very difficult to say 
that. 

923
00:49:55,880 --> 00:50:00,440
So I think very careful, slow 
introduction of anything. 

924
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,320
If someone said, hey, should I 
throw on a weighted vest and, 

925
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,000
and start running two days a 
week and that weighted vest, 

926
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:09,960
which seems to be very popular 
right now, I would say sure, if 

927
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,960
you want to do that, just very 
carefully and slowly, 

928
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,000
methodically introduce it to 
your training plan and make sure

929
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,880
you adequately recovered and 
make sure everything's in the 

930
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:24,080
right context. 
So your body is amazing and 

931
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:28,680
fascinating and, and it's 
resilient and it can adapt to 

932
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:30,320
the stresses that you apply to 
it. 

933
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,680
It's what makes it more exciting
than studying, say, a bridge 

934
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,440
that's just, it's slowly 
degrading. 

935
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,440
Once it's done, it's it's on a 
slow kind of path of 

936
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:44,200
degradation, whereas your body 
can respond to and and change 

937
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:47,840
its resilience. 
Even though we're all slowly 

938
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:49,160
degrading anyway. 
But there's just some 

939
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,320
interesting change that also 
happened along, not just. 

940
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:53,560
Of course, of course, of course.
You know, once you reach a 

941
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:55,280
certain age, that becomes 
harder. 

942
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:57,160
Yeah, that. 
I'm sorry to win that. 

943
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,840
Battle but not impossible 
ironically, as we're starting to

944
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:03,880
realize but it's it's 
interesting so yes so some of 

945
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:08,480
the the big takeaways is again 
the the shoes themself are not 

946
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,400
use the things that are causing 
injuries there there may be some

947
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:14,160
exceptions that there may be 
certain individuals that we 

948
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:17,520
really have not been able to 
subgroup yet that may be more at

949
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:19,560
risk for injury in certain 
shoes. 

950
00:51:19,720 --> 00:51:22,120
We don't really know how to 
subgroup that it's probably 

951
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:24,880
going, hey, you know what if you
see, and this is what we talked 

952
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:27,320
about here on docks running. 
If there's is it something that 

953
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:30,360
that shoe looks like it's going 
to emphasize and you tend to 

954
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:33,520
have trouble with that variable.
That might be a warning sign to 

955
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:37,400
go either that may not be the 
shoe for you or you really need 

956
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:39,480
to slowly introduce this shoe 
in. 

957
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:42,200
That's why we got a lot of 
questions going, Hey, I got X 

958
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:43,960
shoe. 
I've got a marathon in a few 

959
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:45,720
weeks. 
Should I transition into this? 

960
00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:48,240
And often the answer is I would 
not do that. 

961
00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:51,440
I mean, if you really want to 
introduce a shoe into it's for a

962
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,400
racing tool, you can do it and 
you might get away with it, but 

963
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:57,360
you might not. 
It's probably better to make 

964
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:01,680
sure you have tested this thing 
multiple times over at least a 

965
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,800
several, several, several week 
or at least a major portion of 

966
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,720
your training block to go. 
Not only do you know if you can 

967
00:52:07,720 --> 00:52:10,800
handle this, but also has your 
body adapted to the stress and 

968
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,440
stimulus associated with that 
training tool. 

969
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,840
So again, it comes down to us 
being smart and going. 

970
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:19,040
There's no shoe that will 
necessarily protect you from 

971
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,920
injury and there's also not 
going to be any perfect one that

972
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:24,040
potentially is going to injure 
every single person. 

973
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:27,000
I mean, there's maybe some some 
things you can design of shoes 

974
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,200
to make them injure every single
person, but most of what's out 

975
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,920
in the market is not going and 
intended to do that. 

976
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:34,640
Totally agree. 
And then it's great. 

977
00:52:34,720 --> 00:52:36,480
I'm going to bring this up 
unless they're going to take 

978
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:40,200
this different direction, which 
you totally got me with before 

979
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:42,920
we started talking, before this 
episode is going. 

980
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:44,800
What are you going to do with 
the fact that literally 

981
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:47,920
everything, as you mentioned 
earlier, is also on its way to 

982
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:52,000
becoming super? 
So we have and again, AFT or 

983
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,160
super shoes really is an 
umbrella term. 

984
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:57,960
And now we have these things 
called super trainers that have 

985
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:01,480
plates and these foams in them 
that are also designed at a 

986
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:04,320
variety of training speeds. 
And these are been a great tool 

987
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:06,880
that I've suggested for the 
slower recreational going. 

988
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:09,200
You may not need the fastest 
shoe out there. 

989
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:11,880
You know, there's a lot of shoes
that are going to match you and 

990
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,080
your skill level that's not 
being degraded, that's going 

991
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:15,880
where are you? 
What's the tool that's going to 

992
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,120
help you go best? 
Then you also have more 

993
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:21,400
traditional training shoes that 
don't have stiffening agents 

994
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:24,440
that still may be stiff that are
also now integrating these 

995
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:26,880
components. 
And you have another group that 

996
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:30,640
we were talking about that 
actually use different levels of

997
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,800
super shoes for different things
where they might use, as you 

998
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:35,520
told me beforehand, in my mouth 
drop. 

999
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:37,720
But I know lots of people that 
do something quite similar, 

1000
00:53:38,240 --> 00:53:41,760
example use the Socketing 
Endorphin Pro to do all their 

1001
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,520
training miles and workouts 
miles in, and then they use the 

1002
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:46,240
socketing Endorphin Elite to 
race in. 

1003
00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:50,120
So technically they're in a 
super racing shoe all the time 

1004
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:51,520
and that's where the industry is
going. 

1005
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:55,400
So what do you think about that?
Yeah. 

1006
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:06,000
So first on the delineation 
there, I I think, and you 

1007
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:09,200
brought this up the, the idea of
differentiating between a super 

1008
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:13,040
shoe and a super trainer, 
there's probably quite a bit of 

1009
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:16,280
overlap there. 
And you know, certainly they'll 

1010
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:19,240
fall into different categories 
in terms of price, potentially 

1011
00:54:19,240 --> 00:54:23,880
in terms of foam choice, 
stability or lack thereof, the 

1012
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:27,040
the specific choice of the 
stiffening agent, the durability

1013
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:30,480
and also kind of how they're 
intended to be used. 

1014
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:34,920
So I think maybe more than 
anything, what differentiates 

1015
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:37,280
between what we would call a 
super trainer and what we would 

1016
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:41,280
call a super shoe or a super 
racer is really how the person 

1017
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:44,560
uses the product, maybe more 
more so than any of those other 

1018
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:46,080
categories, although they're all
important. 

1019
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:51,240
So if you have someone who runs 
a long run and two workouts a 

1020
00:54:51,240 --> 00:54:53,680
week in the Endorphin Pro, but 
then runs a race in the 

1021
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:56,720
Endorphin Elite, then is the 
Adorphen Pro not a super 

1022
00:54:56,720 --> 00:55:00,920
trainer? 
And, and you know, I don't know,

1023
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:04,320
I don't know the answer to that,
but how, how you kind of the 

1024
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:06,360
Super trainer category is very 
broad. 

1025
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:12,960
Even within our own lineup, 
there are a lot of different 

1026
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,720
shoes that one might consider a 
super trainer with different 

1027
00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:17,640
stiffening agents, different 
types of different phone 

1028
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:21,800
choices. 
So it, it, it becomes a, it 

1029
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:25,080
becomes a difficult, you know, a
category or a difficult topic, 

1030
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:29,280
but all of them in some way or 
another end up getting used very

1031
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:32,360
frequently for, you know, 
sometimes daily training runs 

1032
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:35,720
for workouts, for tempos, for 
long runs and sometimes even for

1033
00:55:35,720 --> 00:55:39,640
races. 
So the, the whole idea of what 

1034
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:42,520
is a super trainer versus what 
is a super shoe, I think the 

1035
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,840
lines are getting blurred a 
little bit there just just to 

1036
00:55:47,720 --> 00:55:49,840
throw the, the, the comments 
out. 

1037
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:54,280
But yeah, I think my opinion on 
that is that's great. 

1038
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:58,120
You know, if, if, if it works 
for you in, in your life, in 

1039
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:02,000
your context, and, and if it's 
in your training and, and it's 

1040
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:05,880
a, it's an environment that that
is right for your foot and, and 

1041
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,840
you're running and your speeds 
and your, your cadence and your 

1042
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:10,800
leg length and all that stuff 
that then great. 

1043
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,800
If we'll, we'll make it. 
If, if you want it, we'll make 

1044
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:16,280
the best one we can. 
So awesome. 

1045
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:18,080
Like it. 
It's a, it's a category. 

1046
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:21,720
I think we'll, we'll continue to
grow 15 years from now. 

1047
00:56:21,720 --> 00:56:26,640
Or it are most people running 
and something that's super, you 

1048
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:31,760
know, potentially, I mean, even 
right now, our, our ride has an 

1049
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:36,800
ATPU foam, you know, and it's 
100 and forty $150.00 price 

1050
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:38,880
point. 
And you know, people can run on 

1051
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:42,280
that every day. 
So I, I, I, I think very, 

1052
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:46,000
something that we always try to 
do Saucony is we try to trickle 

1053
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:49,800
down these technologies so they 
can, you know, we say it's 

1054
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,520
democratize innovation. 
So we introduce innovation and 

1055
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,720
then we try to trickle it down 
so so it can it could be used 

1056
00:56:55,720 --> 00:56:58,160
for for potentially all 
athletes. 

1057
00:56:59,240 --> 00:57:01,280
So do you mind if I summarize 
this really quick? 

1058
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:04,080
Please do. 
So what I think and what I think

1059
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:07,200
we're on, the conclusion we're 
coming from is shoes don't 

1060
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:10,880
necessarily cause injuries. 
It's really the most consistent 

1061
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:13,760
theme that we see from the 
evidence of from experience is 

1062
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:17,080
that overtraining causes them 
that the body is surprisingly 

1063
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:19,480
adaptable. 
There may be some subgroups of 

1064
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:21,560
people where there's a certain 
shoe that's really going to 

1065
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:24,240
emphasize a variable for that 
person where that just may not 

1066
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,600
be the best tool for them. 
And that may increase their risk

1067
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:29,600
of an injury, but doesn't 
necessarily mean it's causing 

1068
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:31,280
it. 
At the end of the day, you have 

1069
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:34,560
to overstress and go beyond 
where you can recover for that 

1070
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:38,880
to become a true injury, right? 
And so again, some people may 

1071
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:42,040
not know how to do that or the 
the amount of training they need

1072
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:44,960
to back off may not be 
reasonable that person. 

1073
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:46,960
So they may need to have a 
different tool. 

1074
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,480
But super shoes the end of the 
day are met are designed to 

1075
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:52,640
improve running economy, improve
efficiency, to improve 

1076
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:54,760
performance. 
And there's now a variety of 

1077
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:56,320
them. 
And in fact, they have now the 

1078
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:59,280
Super components have now bled 
into daily training foot or even

1079
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:02,560
choose that we would go, this is
a daily training shoe has these 

1080
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:04,560
components. 
And that's how things have 

1081
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,080
always gone throughout the 
development of footwear. 

1082
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:09,400
That's how it's always happened.
So it's going to progress for 

1083
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:12,040
it. 
I think now there's a little bit

1084
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:15,000
less concern because I think at 
doctor running, I at least I was

1085
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:18,360
really concerned initially as a 
lot of these shoes came out and 

1086
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:21,840
they're the, the contrast 
between a super racing shoe and 

1087
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:26,320
trainers was so massive that I 
was concerned that if you spent 

1088
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:29,800
too much time in one and then 
jumped aggressively into the 

1089
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:34,240
other be at any direction, a 
sudden big change is a big risk 

1090
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:37,880
that goes both ways. 
Now that we're starting to see 

1091
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:42,000
this, these technologies bleed 
more into daily trainers. 

1092
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:44,880
That may be less of an issue. 
And especially as people are 

1093
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:47,560
really going, hey, there's such 
variety that there's certain 

1094
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:50,440
people who I'm sure are using 
super shoes as daily trainers 

1095
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:52,720
and doing fine. 
I actually have many patients 

1096
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:57,080
who they would not be able to 
run at all if they didn't daily 

1097
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:00,600
train in super shoes just 
because of impairments, just 

1098
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:03,480
because of injuries, be it 
traumatic, very running and non 

1099
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:07,360
related age-related things like 
especially the the older athlete

1100
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:11,040
has really seen the second like 
birth of being able to be able 

1101
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:13,120
to run fast and have recover 
from training. 

1102
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:16,400
So these are not bad things, 
they're tools, but they still 

1103
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:20,120
need to be used intelligently 
and know that some of the 

1104
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:22,560
training effects or the normal 
things that our body would be 

1105
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:26,000
able to tell us with more simple
shoes may be blunted so that 

1106
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:30,920
just because you feel good, does
it mean you should overextend. 

1107
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:34,800
The same training principles 
apply, be it you actually can't 

1108
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:38,560
get better unless you recover 
from the stress that you placed 

1109
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:40,000
upon your body. 
That's literally how you get 

1110
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:41,960
better. 
If you continue to train without

1111
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:44,760
adequate rest, you are going to 
increase your injury risk no 

1112
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,920
matter what shoe you have on, be
it super or not. 

1113
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:50,520
And you're also not going to get
better because that super 

1114
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:53,720
compensation, IE the things that
makes it better, happens during 

1115
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:57,520
recovery, not during the 
training stimulus itself. 

1116
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:00,520
So these tools, these tools are 
not bad. 

1117
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:02,640
Different people are going to 
respond differently. 

1118
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:04,400
Some people are going to do very
well, some people are not. 

1119
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:06,440
And that's going to be up to the
individual to figure that out. 

1120
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:10,480
But they themselves are probably
not causing injuries across the 

1121
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:13,680
spectrum. 
Of runners, in fact, they're 

1122
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:16,080
probably not influencing that 
much them that much anyway 

1123
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:19,560
because the injury rate hasn't 
actually changed, but injury 

1124
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:22,000
types have shifted, which is 
what always happens. 

1125
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:25,080
Minimalist forefoot stuff. 
Injury rates didn't change, they

1126
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:26,600
just shifted where they happen, 
right. 

1127
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:29,440
Instead of getting knee hip 
stuff, it just went straight 

1128
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:31,320
into the foot and ankle. 
Foot and ankle, metatarsal 

1129
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:33,880
injuries, calf Achilles 
tendinopathy. 

1130
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:37,400
Now that we've gone to the more 
maximalist and super stuff, now 

1131
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:40,440
it's moving its way back up into
it's a lot more knee and hip 

1132
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,120
related stuff with the 
occasional foot and ankle thing,

1133
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:44,320
right? 
You're just shifting them. 

1134
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:47,200
But it still comes down to 
making sure, especially if 

1135
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:49,760
you're new to running, get used 
to the stress of running. 

1136
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:51,760
It is a stressful thing. 
It's an awesome thing. 

1137
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:54,200
It's really efficient to be able
to just go out the door, but 

1138
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:56,520
there's a high injury risk. 
You need to make sure you let 

1139
01:00:56,520 --> 01:01:00,600
your body adapt and take things 
slow even if you feel good, 

1140
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:03,680
because we know there's plenty 
of metrics not to scare you that

1141
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:06,520
would suggest that even if you 
feel good if you just did 

1142
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:08,560
something hard, you need to 
recover. 

1143
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:11,720
It's a beautiful summary. 
Sweet. 

1144
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:15,320
Anything else you would add? 
Nope, that covered it. 

1145
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:16,920
That's great. 
Thanks for having me. 

1146
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:18,880
Dude, Corey, thank you so much 
as always. 

1147
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:21,360
It is always really fun. 
That was really good. 

1148
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:25,560
And I hope some of the listeners
and viewers also had some biases

1149
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:27,240
challenge. 
This is why we love doing this. 

1150
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:29,360
And Corey's just one of those 
brilliant people who we love 

1151
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:31,800
constantly bothering and going, 
hey, what does he think? 

1152
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,120
Because we're all just trying to
learn, OK? 

1153
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:36,600
We're just trying to share good 
information and learn ourselves.

1154
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:37,600
Me too. 
Yeah. 

1155
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:41,240
You feel better. 
It's funny that no matter who 

1156
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:43,760
you talk to, like the smartest 
people are always gonna say the 

1157
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:45,720
same thing. 
So we're in the same boat. 

1158
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:47,920
So, Corey, thank you as always, 
very, very much. 

1159
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:50,400
What is remind me the name of 
your stub stack again? 

1160
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:52,400
Or at least remind our audience 
so that they can find. 

1161
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:56,720
Yes, it's the inverse dynamic 
where you can just search my 

1162
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:01,600
name coreyhoffman.substack.com. 
So you we'll put a link for that

1163
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:04,680
in the in the notes and then you
can find us as always in a 

1164
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:08,560
variety of different areas, be 
it this on the variety of 

1165
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:10,960
different Spotify and iTunes and
all kind of places. 

1166
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:13,920
The YouTube will always be 
available on Wednesday where you

1167
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:16,720
can see the video Wednesdays and
Sundays and when the the podcast

1168
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:19,360
and the videos will come out. 
You can find us there on a 

1169
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:21,600
variety of channels. 
All of our other content can be 

1170
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:23,240
found on our website. 
Doctors running. 

1171
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:25,480
I want to give a shout out that 
we've got some awesome people 

1172
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:29,960
working on a search engine where
you can now find and search 

1173
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:32,800
shoes by reviewer, by type, by 
all kinds of stuff. 

1174
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:35,760
After many, many reviews, 
finally happened in a big shout 

1175
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:37,720
out to Dan, who's been nice 
enough to join us, who is a 

1176
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:39,360
brilliant person to help us set 
this up. 

1177
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:42,360
So if you can go take a look at 
that and give us some feedback, 

1178
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:44,480
'cause we're testing this, we're
trying to make it easier to help

1179
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:46,960
help educate everybody because 
that's what we do at Doctors 

1180
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:48,680
Running. 
Our goal, and you can find us on

1181
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:51,360
the website, Instagram, variety 
of places is really not to sell 

1182
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:53,480
you stuff, but help educate you 
on the stuff that you're putting

1183
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:56,400
on your feet so you can make 
better decisions and hopefully 

1184
01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:58,840
train smarter and not have to 
worry about this stuff as much 

1185
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:01,280
and just go out there and run. 
Corey, thank you very much. 

1186
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:04,320
And as always, thank you. 
Thank you for that for coming on

1187
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:05,440
and thank you everybody for 
listening. 

1188
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:07,200
We hope this helps and we'll see
you next time.