1
00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,840
Hello everybody and welcome to 
the Doctor Spreading podcast 

2
00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,400
where we, a group of doctors of 
physical therapy, discuss the 

3
00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,600
art and science of running and 
the stuff that we put on our 

4
00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,040
feet. 
Today at the round table we have

5
00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,520
the founder of Doctors of 
Running, Doctor Matthew Klein, 

6
00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,200
as well as Doctor David Salas 
and myself. 

7
00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,040
I'm Nathan Brown. 
I will be hosting today and we 

8
00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,200
are going to be going through a 
discussion on what of the 

9
00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:34,200
current ailments that we are 
each dealing with and how are we

10
00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,800
conceptualizing them from a 
physical therapist lens and how 

11
00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,960
are we trying to walk forward 
with whatever we are going 

12
00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:42,520
through. 
So we're going to be kind of 

13
00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,920
laying our own stuff out on the 
table for you all, and hopefully

14
00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,840
that can be insightful for just 
how we process things and maybe 

15
00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:50,080
some of the things that we're 
doing. 

16
00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,160
And then we might dive into some
other stuff pending the amount 

17
00:00:53,160 --> 00:00:55,280
of time that we have. 
But before we get into that 

18
00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,200
topic, Matt or David, do you 
have any shoes that you're 

19
00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,440
currently testing that you want 
to bring up and chat about? 

20
00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,080
Yeah. 
I will say the this very much 

21
00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:05,440
surprised me with the Salomon 
Arrow. 

22
00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,120
Glide 3 has been awesome. 
It's been a great shoots like 

23
00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,040
that really nice balance of a 
lightweight trainer where it's 

24
00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,120
actually light like it's like 
sub 9 oz I think for men's size 

25
00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,880
9. 
So it's got this really nice 

26
00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,240
foam that I'm forgetting the 
name of right now, but it's 

27
00:01:20,320 --> 00:01:22,000
actually good. 
And I don't mean you sound rude,

28
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,040
but Salomon has been really like
talking big about their foams. 

29
00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:29,920
And yeah, the, the, their, their
super shoes is decent. 

30
00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:31,280
It's just a little unstable for 
me. 

31
00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,320
But they made a lot of talk. 
They put out a lot of talk about

32
00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,320
their other trainers. 
And then they put this one out 

33
00:01:37,320 --> 00:01:39,320
very quietly and I'm like, it's 
awesome. 

34
00:01:39,320 --> 00:01:41,640
It's got a nice bounce to it. 
I've done workouts, I've done 

35
00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:43,920
long runs. 
I'm really enjoying it. 

36
00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,880
I just got it to 100 miles and 
just ripped through the outsole,

37
00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,320
sadly. 
So it's has better durability, 

38
00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,800
but not perfect. 
My only issue with this is the 

39
00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,480
upper is a little bit has a 
little bit too much room. 

40
00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:57,440
So it's the first shows that 
I've had the lace lock in a 

41
00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,880
while. 
But yeah, don't don't sleep on 

42
00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:01,280
that shoe. 
It's actually really decent. 

43
00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:02,320
I've been very impressed with 
it. 

44
00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,520
Yeah, for me, I've been running 
in a lot of shoes I can't talk 

45
00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:08,600
about. 
So that's always a roadblock 

46
00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:09,800
when we hit these types of 
things. 

47
00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,440
But there I am in the middle of 
doing a trail roundup. 

48
00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:16,360
And one shoe that was 
surprisingly nice for me was the

49
00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,880
New Balance Hero Version 9, the 
fresh Foam X. 

50
00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:24,040
It was really pleasant. 
They did kind of a dual density.

51
00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:25,320
Yeah, yeah, they changed it a 
lot. 

52
00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,960
The last one was really soft and
it had a good little balance to 

53
00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,480
it, but the upper was really 
stretchy and it was a little 

54
00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,320
unstable. 
This one's different. 

55
00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,400
It's it's a lot different and 
it's a little bit more 

56
00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,280
structured on the foam. 
It's like a dual layer or a dual

57
00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,400
density fresh foam. 
And they wanted it to be plush, 

58
00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,520
but still feel really 
structured. 

59
00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,640
And I feel like that did come 
across good traction deeper mega

60
00:02:47,640 --> 00:02:51,320
grip, you know, and the upper is
like a knit upper, but it has 

61
00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,360
reinforcements around it and it 
doesn't feel like it's overly 

62
00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:55,600
stretchy. 
Like it feels like you're 

63
00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,200
actually locked in pretty well. 
And I could easily see someone 

64
00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,760
just mobbing 100 miles on a 
trail on that, you know? 

65
00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:03,360
And it's not, like, super 
responsive. 

66
00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:04,520
We're talking fresh from X, you 
know? 

67
00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,560
But it's like, it's consistent 
and it's durable and it can take

68
00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:09,240
a beating. 
It's just kind of a nice, you 

69
00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,240
know, high stack, stiff rocker 
shoe that happens to be a little

70
00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,320
bit more trailer oriented. 
So it feels nice. 

71
00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,200
It's good. 
It was a pleasant surprise. 

72
00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,440
Yeah. 
Where do you see it fitting 

73
00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,040
from? 
Like in the range from Made for 

74
00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,120
hiking, made for running. 
That's a great question. 

75
00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:27,160
Where do you see it on that 
spectrum? 

76
00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,240
Yeah, that's a great question. 
I think it's one of the few that

77
00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,240
I think can do both. 
It kind of reminds me of like a 

78
00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:34,840
road to trail, almost like an 
all terrain type shoe. 

79
00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,200
It, it feels like a road shoe in
some ways where it's just kind 

80
00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:43,120
of a, again, high stack rocker, 
just, it feels almost like what 

81
00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,160
all those shoes look like now 
coming out. 

82
00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,840
But but it is structured really 
well and it is stable on foot 

83
00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,000
and it feels good to stand and 
walk in too. 

84
00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,200
So it, yeah, they, they did a 
good job with that one. 

85
00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,600
I, I feel like that's one that I
might be writing about later in 

86
00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,440
the year as well. 
So very, very pleasant surprise 

87
00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,200
on that model. 
And the upper is comfortable 

88
00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:05,320
too. 
And there's actually a decent 

89
00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,720
amount of volume in the forefoot
and there's some width as well. 

90
00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,480
So which is a big. 
Plus, which is new for them too.

91
00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:12,880
Yeah, because they used to. 
The hero used to be pretty 

92
00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:13,640
narrow. 
Yeah. 

93
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:15,160
So it's nice. 
It's really nice. 

94
00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:22,240
Cool, awesome. 
Well, let's start chatting about

95
00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,000
our own ailments and what's been
going on with us. 

96
00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,160
So Matt, we're going to, we're 
going to start with you. 

97
00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:30,000
Give us a little background on 
maybe some of the things that 

98
00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,520
typically pop up for you if you 
are typically someone who's 

99
00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,440
getting injured or having some 
sort of running related injury. 

100
00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:38,560
And then we can talk about what 
you're doing now. 

101
00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,160
Yep, I will say that I'm very 
lucky that in the past I would 

102
00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:43,800
have a lot of things that would 
knock me out. 

103
00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,360
Fortunately, over time, as I've 
learned about this stuff, I'm 

104
00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,400
able to kind of pick it up 
pretty quick and know, hey, is 

105
00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,760
this something I need to address
or is it something that's going 

106
00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:52,960
to go away? 
So current ailments at the 

107
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,800
moment is actually right now a 
bit of a right posterior 

108
00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:57,600
tibialis. 
So like the muscle that runs on 

109
00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,560
the inner side of your ankle is 
irritated. 

110
00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,560
So it's the tendon specifically,
not the muscle. 

111
00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,840
So I probably it's a 
tendinopathy. 

112
00:05:04,840 --> 00:05:07,120
So I know I've had this before. 
I know it's probably the 

113
00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,560
underlying. 
I just did a little bit too much

114
00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,280
trail stroller stuff and was a 
little bit aggressive this week 

115
00:05:12,280 --> 00:05:13,960
and started to flare up a little
bit. 

116
00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,120
Not enough that it stopped me 
from running, but enough that 

117
00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:17,880
I'm like, I need to pay 
attention to this. 

118
00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,120
Now. 
The other things that are pretty

119
00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,640
classic for me at the moment 
that I had AT, it's gotten to 

120
00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,200
stiffen up a little bit. 
The start it runs is a little 

121
00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,600
bit of a left sided IT band 
irritation, which ironically we 

122
00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:35,360
just put out a episode on that. 
So both those are there and 

123
00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,560
fortunately they have not 
stopped me from running. 

124
00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:39,800
I've actually run some pretty 
probably one of the better 

125
00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:44,120
workouts I've done in a while 
yesterday, but the things that 

126
00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,520
immediately came to mind is 
don't I don't let them just sit 

127
00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:48,440
there immediately going not 
fearfully. 

128
00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,360
So the biggest point is don't 
freak out, you know, going, OK, 

129
00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,680
what is this, you know, what 
steps we need to take and this 

130
00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,080
is it still within a safe zone 
or is that danger zone? 

131
00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,760
A lot of times your bone stress 
injury type stuff is like, all 

132
00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:01,680
right, we're in a danger zone. 
Or if you've like ruptured 

133
00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,680
something or danger zone, but 
it's like, OK, stop, assess 

134
00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,680
what's going on. 
It's more tender when I'm not 

135
00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,000
running. 
It warms up initially when I, 

136
00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,000
it's a little irritable when I 
start running. 

137
00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,880
So it just needs to warm up. 
So it gets better as I run. 

138
00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,800
So that's a good sign. 
But then immediately went, all 

139
00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,600
right, I need to, I haven't made
as much time as I need to for my

140
00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:25,920
strength work recently, just 
cause life's been a little 

141
00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,040
crazy. 
So I just kind of slowly eased 

142
00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,680
into that, made sure IT Med 
stuff's usually pretty 

143
00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:32,200
straightforward. 
I could do hip strengthening 

144
00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:36,360
almost immediately. 
And I'm not very I, I, there's 

145
00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,160
some specific things I do you 
don't, I don't know if you have 

146
00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,000
to be that specific, but it's 
just like like specific like 

147
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,480
really hip hinging deadlift 
stuff and some really heavy like

148
00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,440
side plank stuff. 
Just kind of working on those 

149
00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:49,760
lateral hip muscles tends to 
work really, really well. 

150
00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,360
And so symptoms calm down pretty
quick on the IT band stuff. 

151
00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,000
The post tip stuff has been all 
right, let's make sure this calm

152
00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,400
enough for me to start loading 
it, doing some kind of active 

153
00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,040
range of motion at 1st. 
And then as soon as I knew it 

154
00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:03,720
was in the clear, started doing 
some. 

155
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,600
You do a calf raise, but you 
actually invert your foot or 

156
00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,040
like or put your foot in. 
And they found that doing foot 

157
00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,720
inward calf raises can actually 
load the medial structures a 

158
00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,480
little bit more. 
So I just got back to my heavy 

159
00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,520
calf raises and loaded that and 
it's actually responded super 

160
00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,240
well. 
And while it's still like, 

161
00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,920
irritable to touch, it's not 
bothering me. 

162
00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:24,880
I'm on the run. 
It's getting better. 

163
00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,760
And I'm just being not cautious,
but just making sure I'm 

164
00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:30,400
managing it appropriately. 
Measured. 

165
00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,320
Measured, yeah. 
And making sure I don't do 

166
00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,640
anything too drastically new. 
Right, David, how's that going 

167
00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:35,960
are? 
You lucky, Yeah. 

168
00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,120
Oh yeah. 
What's that supposed to mean? 

169
00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:38,440
Nate? 
You're. 

170
00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,320
Being measured, you know. 
Yeah, very calculated, very 

171
00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,960
measured. 
I don't do anything that rocks. 

172
00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:50,480
Nobody knows what we're talking 
about though. 

173
00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,760
It's just an inside joke that I 
threw out there and. 

174
00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,960
It's not going to land anywhere.
We'll bring it back. 

175
00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:56,880
Matt. 
Matt. 

176
00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,560
Let's keep talking. 
So you've been measuring with 

177
00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,520
what you're doing with the knee 
and then also is it the same 

178
00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,160
side? 
Is it the same IT band opposite?

179
00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,160
Side, no, it's consolateral 
side, yeah. 

180
00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:10,320
Yeah. 
How do you conceptualize that 

181
00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,480
and talk about why David, you 
just said it makes sense, Matt, 

182
00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,560
do you agree and and why would 
you say that kind of makes sense

183
00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,760
that it's opposite side? 
I don't know if that necessarily

184
00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,160
makes sense, opposite sides, but
just know that I have a history 

185
00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,240
of each one of those on those 
particular sides. 

186
00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,200
Like I've had post tip stuff on 
the right before and I know I 

187
00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,480
just probably didn't manage it. 
And I know there's an underlying

188
00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,640
tendon thing that I just need to
load appropriately for nine 

189
00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,880
months and to get it really to 
heal the way it needs to. 

190
00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,240
I know I just haven't done that.
The left has been, there's some 

191
00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,640
movement stuff that I have that 
may put me at a little bit more 

192
00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,040
risk kind of pulling out. 
I've got a little bit more hip 

193
00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:52,800
drop on that left side. 
Again, I can run normally and 

194
00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:54,760
that's a thing. 
But I think, you know, things 

195
00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,640
have been really busy too, and I
haven't been sleeping nearly as 

196
00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,960
well because Isabella is coming 
off being pretty sick and having

197
00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,840
a high fever that finally came 
down on the third day. 

198
00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,000
But yeah, so there is multitude 
of factors, but I think the 

199
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,120
history of those is probably the
biggest thing. 

200
00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,560
And then adding, I did add some 
new stuff. 

201
00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:14,520
Normally my training is pretty 
consistent, like intensity will 

202
00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:16,880
kind of fluctuate, but it's 
usually like up. 

203
00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,840
It's they've never used like a 
completely down week unless I'm 

204
00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,280
really fatigued. 
But things are usually pretty 

205
00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:24,280
consistent. 
The only new stuff is I added 

206
00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,640
some far more intense trail 
efforts, trying to get miles on 

207
00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,000
some trail stuff that we have 
right now. 

208
00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,440
So the history of them, plus the
stress and a little bit of 

209
00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:37,520
training change makes me not 
surprised. 

210
00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:41,320
Sure. 
And with the types of injury, 

211
00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,760
injury is a weird word, right? 
So there's like a consensus 

212
00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:46,480
definition on running related 
injuries. 

213
00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,240
I think it basically says that 
if you've had to modify up to 

214
00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,240
three consecutive training 
sessions or had three days of 

215
00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,920
modifications, or you saw a 
provider, that's what triggers 

216
00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:58,360
the idea of a running related 
injury. 

217
00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,120
From the consensus definition, 
these are more like niggles 

218
00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,080
because they're not changing 
your training. 

219
00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,640
You know when you talk about 
trying to be measured and 

220
00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,440
continuing to run and doing your
loading, what makes you decide 

221
00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:12,800
that being the best course of 
action for you with what you're 

222
00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,600
dealing with specifically? 
Yep, I think it's knowing the 

223
00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,640
intensity of symptoms that 
they're mostly irritable during 

224
00:10:20,680 --> 00:10:24,200
either the beginning of a run or
they're actually totally fine on

225
00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,560
the run. 
And it's not stopping me from 

226
00:10:26,560 --> 00:10:28,160
doing that. 
Although I have to admit that 

227
00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,040
I'm for better for worse. 
My body's pretty adaptable and 

228
00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:32,760
able to push through a lot of 
things. 

229
00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,640
Whether it's good or not is you 
know that I will be very honest 

230
00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,760
with us up for up for debate on 
whether that's necessarily a 

231
00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,440
good thing, but I'm pretty 
adaptable at getting. 

232
00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,080
Put it on the record. 
I wish I was as much of a tank 

233
00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,400
as client as that would be. 
Amazing. 

234
00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,000
Yeah, agreed. 
Yeah, you are faster though, so 

235
00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,960
to be fair. 
So maybe because you lift into 

236
00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:58,200
your body more, but yeah, it's 
knowing it's kind of within a 

237
00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:02,280
manageable level, right. 
So it's not interrupting my 

238
00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,360
running. 
It's also not interrupting my 

239
00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,680
normal gait during the day, even
during walking. 

240
00:11:06,680 --> 00:11:08,840
So I'm like, OK, Yep. 
Like I can feel it a little bit,

241
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,040
but it's not at a oh, I need to 
pay more attention to this or 

242
00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,240
really start raining things in 
if it was that high or I'm like,

243
00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,760
wow, like even my walking gait 
is really affected. 

244
00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,560
It's really starting to affect 
my running or it's getting worse

245
00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:23,160
as I run more than I would 
probably start to modulate 

246
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,160
things. 
But I'm also lucky that I jump 

247
00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,480
on things pretty quick. 
Not like a Oh no, it's like, 

248
00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,280
Yep, you know, I got to start 
managing this. 

249
00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,840
I need to identify what it is 
and start working through this 

250
00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:34,920
and not wait. 
I think there's. 

251
00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,680
And even if Debbie's just doing 
just a teeny bit, like a little 

252
00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,760
like it's not like I gotta get a
full rehab plan, but it's this 

253
00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,440
is the benefit of being a a 
rehab professional is going OK, 

254
00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,360
what do I need to do? 
What phase of healing and just 

255
00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,320
yeah, so so David. 
No, I think like there's a 

256
00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,560
pretty good little Pearl in 
there of just like not panicking

257
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,880
because I think runners in 
general tend to be a little bit 

258
00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:02,640
more neurotic just as people and
the activities that we do, 

259
00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,520
people can get pretty obsessive 
over the numbers and what 

260
00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,760
they're doing and the output. 
And they're like, I have to hit 

261
00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:10,560
this, I have to hit this, I have
this and they can't hit it 

262
00:12:10,560 --> 00:12:11,360
anymore. 
They're like, Oh my God. 

263
00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:13,080
And then they start feeling a 
pain and they're like, Oh my 

264
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,680
God, everything's going to like 
implode on me. 

265
00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,320
And that cycle, especially if 
you've had recurrent injuries, 

266
00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,120
can be, it can be vicious, you 
know, and a lot of people have a

267
00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,840
hard time kind of taking that 
step back and being like, OK, 

268
00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,600
I'm, I'm OK. 
Like, I guess it's a little bit,

269
00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,280
but I'm OK, like, because a lot 
of times at the first sign of 

270
00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:34,760
anything, people freak out, 
right? 

271
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,160
And I think that's kind of a 
good reminder to just like, 

272
00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,520
don't freak out yet, you know, 
like just kind of came up. 

273
00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:44,520
Let's see if there's anything we
can work on. 

274
00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,120
Maybe we back off a tiny bit 
here and there and we work on a 

275
00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,880
couple other things and then 
maybe this will take care of 

276
00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,480
itself. 
I have some thoughts on that but

277
00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,080
I actually want to wait before 
either one of you 2 to go 1st 

278
00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,880
and then I will drop some 
thoughts on like fear avoidance 

279
00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,240
and things like that so. 
The other Pearl I think you 

280
00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,840
drop, Matt, as you were talking 
was pattern like with activity 

281
00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:13,440
and one you name it was that if 
it's not impacting walking or 

282
00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,400
stairs or kind of daily life 
things, that's a different 

283
00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:18,960
threshold than if those things 
start to be impacted. 

284
00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,640
But then the other one you 
talked about was pattern during 

285
00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,440
running. 
Maybe it doesn't hurt at all 

286
00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,800
while running, and maybe it's at
the beginning, but it goes away 

287
00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,960
and then doesn't come back. 
That's very different than if 

288
00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:34,440
the pain consistently starts to 
come at mile 2 and then the next

289
00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,120
week it starts to come at mile 1
and there's a pattern of 

290
00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,720
worsening and it gets worse 
during a run versus the type 

291
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:42,840
that goes away during the 
beginning of a run. 

292
00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,920
That's a very different level of
tissue irritability and I'll 

293
00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,840
come back to that when I go 
through mine a little bit. 

294
00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,280
But I think that's a helpful 
pattern of do I need to back 

295
00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,760
off? 
Well, if it's going away and 

296
00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:59,200
stays away during a run and then
you notice that it doesn't come 

297
00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,040
back at all, you're probably in 
a decent spot to continue what 

298
00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,840
you're doing as long as you're 
week to week symptoms aren't 

299
00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,480
worsening. 
So I thought that was another 

300
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,160
nice little Pearl that you had 
in there. 

301
00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:12,840
I will add one last thing that I
forgot to mention that as the 

302
00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,800
post tip stuff started to come 
up, it was like, all right, I 

303
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,160
probably need to spend a little 
bit more time like for me having

304
00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,640
a history of Achilles tendon and
post tip stuff. 

305
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,040
I know that. 
And just comfort wise, I tend to

306
00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,960
do better in stability shoes. 
And it was talking with my 

307
00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,280
brother today because he came 
over and, and we went for a run.

308
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,160
And he's going, you know, a lot 
of the stuff that you talk 

309
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,880
about, when he listens, he goes,
you know, you have a lot of 

310
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:35,440
knowledge that a lot of new 
runners may not have. 

311
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,120
And like, fitting shoes can be 
challenging. 

312
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,440
And like, he's trying to 
navigate all this stuff because 

313
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:40,320
he's going through his own 
thing. 

314
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,960
And he's getting ready for this,
what's called a slug run, where 

315
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:47,680
they do think over 24 hours. 
You run 4-4 miles every single 

316
00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:49,040
hour. 
Yeah. 

317
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,440
So it's like, like it's a it's 
like, yeah, I guess that's what 

318
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,240
they're going to have it at 
Shibui Park near me. 

319
00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,400
So he's getting ready for that. 
And he had some stuff pop up. 

320
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,160
He's trying all these different 
things and I'm like, hey, this 

321
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,040
is probably what I did an eval 
and he says doing very good. 

322
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,200
He's doing much better now, but 
he goes, you know, I'm not sure 

323
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,840
like how much I can tolerate 
when it comes to stability 

324
00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:10,200
shoes. 
What do you think about that? 

325
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,800
And I told him, you know, it 
really comes down to your 

326
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,200
tolerance. 
I know that most of the time I 

327
00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:16,760
tend to do best in a stability 
shoe. 

328
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,040
I can handle being in a neutral 
shoe and I test them all the 

329
00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:21,600
time. 
I enjoy them. 

330
00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,720
But there's sometimes like if 
I've done a lot of neutral 

331
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,600
stuff, then I'm like, I might 
need I then I might something 

332
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:28,280
can get a little annoyed and I 
go, Yep, you know what? 

333
00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,560
I just need to spend a little 
time stability shoe to let that 

334
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,920
kind of calm down. 
And then as I can, can slowly 

335
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,560
work my way back. 
So right now is going, Yep, I 

336
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:38,440
need to spend a little bit more 
time and stuff that's just a 

337
00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:40,560
little bit more structured, 
either stable, neutral or 

338
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,200
stability. 
And as it calms down, then I can

339
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,440
kind of start working my way 
back carefully. 

340
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:48,480
It doesn't mean I won't run a 
neutral shoe at all. 

341
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,920
Just means I'd probably just 
spend a little bit more time in 

342
00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,480
stable shoes. 
Well, you answered my final 

343
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,960
question that I was going to ask
without me having to ask it 

344
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,280
regarding how does your shoe 
selection change depending on 

345
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:00,640
what's going on. 
So you kind of went through 

346
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:02,160
that. 
Yeah, Can I? 

347
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,080
I'm also very lucky. 
We are lucky that we have a lot 

348
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:06,560
of different shoes to choose 
from. 

349
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:11,320
It's another reason like if your
finances allow this, I would 

350
00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,400
encourage you to have just a 
small, at least a small rotation

351
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,440
of maybe 2, maybe three if you 
can afford it. 

352
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,120
And I think that gives you some 
options. 

353
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,640
A Because training in a variety 
of shoes is one of the things 

354
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,000
that we know that if you do it 
appropriately can actually 

355
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,000
reduce your injury risk, may 
reduce your injury risk. 

356
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,480
But then you have various tools 
to know, hey, if this is 

357
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:32,440
working, I can actually work in 
this. 

358
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,160
And so even if I wasn't doing 
doctors running, I'd probably 

359
00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,520
have a stability shoe, some kind
of lighter shoe and a racing 

360
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,480
shoe that I could just work 
between as I needed to. 

361
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,120
And the stability shoe I'd 
probably go back to frequently 

362
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:44,760
if stuff is getting a little bit
more irritated. 

363
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:49,640
So shoes are tools and you can 
use them for what you need as an

364
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:51,360
individual. 
Yeah, I feel like my perfect 

365
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:56,920
rotation categorically has like 
a moderately stacked flexible 4 

366
00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:02,160
foot daily trainer. 
It's got a semi rigid rokered 

367
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,240
shoe that still has some flex 
and then it's got this kind of 

368
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,079
maximalist maybe racing shoe 
with a stiff 4 foot rocker 

369
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,920
that's lighter weight with some 
workout slash racing 

370
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:14,800
capabilities. 
So I'd have everything from the 

371
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:19,400
flexible, slightly lower stack 
and whatever up to the more 

372
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,960
rigid set you can on a day that 
you need that one versus 

373
00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,440
another. 
You'd be able to vary between 

374
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,240
those things. 
And then for me, it wouldn't be 

375
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,480
this into stable shoes, but it 
would be from like the neutral 

376
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:35,400
to a stable neutral category. 
Get a fan Topo Phantom in there.

377
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,080
Something like that. 
Do you like the Topo Phantom? 

378
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,200
I do like that shoe, but at 
least the three I don't know. 

379
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:42,920
Is the four out? 
Is it coming? 

380
00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,120
It's coming, maybe. 
I mean, I imagine it would be 

381
00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:48,440
coming, but I don't. 
I. 

382
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,120
I think it might be coming soon.
I saw somebody talking about the

383
00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:55,400
Phantom 4 I think. 
I feel like they had a few trail

384
00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:56,480
updates. 
Maybe I'm losing my mind. 

385
00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,560
Like the Ultra Venture I think 
got updated and then maybe the 

386
00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,800
Terra Venture and some other. 
Stuff Topo if you're listening, 

387
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,760
I saw that you updated the mount
racer, which is one of my 

388
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:08,720
favorite trail shoes and it 
looks like you make it made it 

389
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,960
heavier. 
So I'm I want to try it but I'm 

390
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,960
scared. 
That might be the most mad thing

391
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:16,920
I've heard today. 
I want to try I. 

392
00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:18,320
Totally AM. 
Scared. 

393
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:23,680
Amazing. 
Don't make me sad. 

394
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,000
Well, I'll go next and I think 
that a lot of people have heard 

395
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,320
parts of my store over the last 
couple years. 

396
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,760
I would say my general history 
is one that is relatively 

397
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,480
riddled with injuries when it 
comes to running. 

398
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,840
I don't have a lifetime of 
running on my belt. 

399
00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,440
I have a lifetime of wrestling 
and some soccer, which has 

400
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,160
running, but a different kind of
running. 

401
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,720
So when I started running, I 
started wrong. 

402
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,280
And I what I mean by that is I 
always ran really fast. 

403
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,800
Like every run. 
I tried to PR every single run, 

404
00:18:57,120 --> 00:18:58,720
no joke. 
And if I didn't come back 

405
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,480
completely exhausted, fall on 
the ground, I felt like I didn't

406
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,280
put enough into the run. 
So I did that for my first 

407
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,880
entire marathon training, which 
is why I had issues Anyway, I 

408
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,120
didn't set myself off off on the
right foot. 

409
00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:13,640
And that was back in like 20. 
I started, I started running 

410
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,920
like 2011, 2012, first marathon 
in 2017. 

411
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,960
So that whole time was terrible 
from a being smart with my 

412
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,920
training standpoint. 
It was also pre being a physical

413
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,000
therapist for especially the 
first couple years of that. 

414
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,080
More recently I've had kind of 
two bigger things. 

415
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,360
The first I've talked about ad 
nauseam on here, which was the 

416
00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:37,040
stuff with my left foot and the 
big toe joint where I had a tear

417
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,680
of a ligament. 
It was kind of a, it felt kind 

418
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,640
of like a freak accident thing 
where it's not a typical running

419
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,920
related injury, usually don't 
have these kind of chronic tears

420
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,840
of ligaments like that, at least
in my experience. 

421
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:51,720
So I've kind of been working my 
way through that. 

422
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,520
But then starting the end of 
summer of 2024, kind of 

423
00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,040
beginning to fall Labor Day, and
a little bit before I started 

424
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,600
having issues with my knee and 
it wasn't Even so much with 

425
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,200
running. 
I like couldn't squat back like 

426
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,920
when I was playing with my kids 
or like playing board games or 

427
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,440
whatever I couldn't squat back 
and get all the way into deep 

428
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,800
knee flexion like bringing my 
heel to my butt and to this day 

429
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,520
I still can't. 
So I'm whatever. 6-8 months, 

430
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:21,960
still don't have full knee range
of motion and it was pretty 

431
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,520
irritable early on to where 
anytime I would be sitting, I 

432
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,000
would go to stand up and it 
would hurt a lot to go into 

433
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,080
extension like straightening my 
knee back out. 

434
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:35,360
And so through the fall I did my
own rehabilitation program where

435
00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:38,640
I worked on loading around the 
knee, hamstrings, quadriceps, 

436
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:43,240
little bit of stability work and
I got significantly improved. 

437
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:47,680
I got more range of motion and I
also didn't have that pain when 

438
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:49,680
I would stand up and straighten 
my knee out anymore. 

439
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:55,400
But I still couldn't bend my 
knee all the way, which I'm only

440
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,680
33 so I that shouldn't be a 
thing. 

441
00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:59,680
And it feels like I'm kind of 
locked out of it. 

442
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,200
And so I did a couple extra 
testing. 

443
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,920
I saw some other PTS who could 
be a little bit more objective 

444
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:07,960
with me. 
They couldn't really figure it 

445
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:08,880
out. 
We did a lot of joint 

446
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:10,400
mobilizations. 
We tried to treat. 

447
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,840
So we tried to treat the joint. 
We tried to treat the tissues 

448
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,600
around the the structure with 
like dry needling and with some 

449
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,600
other soft tissue work. 
And nothing created short term 

450
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,000
changes. 
I saw Matt at CSM with. 

451
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:25,840
The. 
Armchair that didn't eval on me 

452
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:28,960
in an armchair in the lobby of a
hotel. 

453
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:34,240
I didn't find any changes there.
I ended up having a kind of a 

454
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:38,640
diagnostic injection in an area 
that had higher signal and MRI 

455
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,200
that didn't make a change. 
And I think that's how I've 

456
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,360
started to go about my approach 
to this is I tried conservative 

457
00:21:46,360 --> 00:21:50,560
management for about 5 months 
before I sought further imaging 

458
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,080
because I still wasn't able to 
get my knee bent all the way. 

459
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,480
So not just like, oh, it's a 
little sore with running. 

460
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,880
There's like this mechanical 
issue that I can't like bend my 

461
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,720
knee all the way. 
And so that's when it triggered 

462
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,120
for me. 
OK, let's get some more imaging.

463
00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:07,400
The imaging was inconclusive, 
which everyone was kind of 

464
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,920
surprised about. 
And so then the approach I'm 

465
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,440
taking now is twofold. 1 was, 
hey, let's do kind of a 

466
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,560
diagnostic treatment to see if 
this treatment helps. 

467
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,120
It would help us know if that 
structure is what's involved. 

468
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,520
It didn't help. 
We don't think that structure's 

469
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,320
involved anymore. 
It kind of ruled it out. 

470
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,320
And now I'm on the phase of 
getting a second opinion. 

471
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,600
So I've sent my imaging over to 
a different specialist who I'm 

472
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,600
going to meet with virtually 
after they look at my imaging. 

473
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,840
So I'm, I'm definitely in the 
waters of the unknown. 

474
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,240
Another part of my journey was 
deciding, OK, let's see what 

475
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:41,920
happens if I do pull running 
backs. 

476
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,520
I ran all the way through the 
fall and I would say that 

477
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:49,160
running had a minimal to 
moderate impact on how severe my

478
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,000
symptoms were. 
Where if I just kept it easy and

479
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,120
I was just going for jogs, I 
didn't notice a big change. 

480
00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:57,400
But if I went and I did like 
strides, even I would notice it 

481
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,360
would kind of flare up. 
And so I was just being cautious

482
00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:02,760
with my running. 
But I was like, you know what, 

483
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,480
at this point it's been 5 months
and I'm not all the way better. 

484
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,560
I'm going to actually take 
running out and see if impact 

485
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,280
loading and taking up way the 
impact changes my symptoms. 

486
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:17,800
I stopped running from around 
December 4th until gosh, after 

487
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,360
CSM. 
So after I saw you, Matt. 

488
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,400
So it was like 8 to 10 weeks 
that I took off like period off 

489
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,560
of running and I saw zero change
in my symptoms. 

490
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:33,120
I did not get any more range of 
motion and at that point I 

491
00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:36,000
determined this also. 
This experiment also was 

492
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,200
inconclusive and failed to help 
with improvement. 

493
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:43,560
And therefore over the past 
three weeks, 4 weeks, I've 

494
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,040
reintroduced running at a very 
baseline level. 

495
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,200
I started with run walks and I 
did like 2 minutes on one minute

496
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,880
off for a couple times then I'd 
slowly increased till my 

497
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,880
intervals were 5 minutes on, one
minute off 10:15 and then I did 

498
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,720
a 30 minute run and now I'm 
running three times a week 30 

499
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:07,880
minutes a time. 
And this past weekend I did my 

500
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:13,920
first like 55 ish minute run. 
And contrary to Matt's 

501
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,880
experience for his symptoms are 
present and they go away for the

502
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,600
last 10 minutes of my run, my 
posterior lateral knee pain was 

503
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,200
present and it came back and it 
was there during the run. 

504
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,280
And so for me at this point, I'm
not saying that I shouldn't run 

505
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,520
that long, but it was too early 
for me. 

506
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,800
So I'm going to go back to my, 
excuse me, back to my 30 

507
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,320
minutes. 
And then this weekend, I might 

508
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,560
try like 40 or 45 instead of all
the way up at that 55. 

509
00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:45,320
Because the good news is that 
after that 55 minute run, 

510
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,880
although my symptoms were 
increased during the run, they 

511
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,480
didn't stick around and I didn't
like lose range of motion or 

512
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,160
anything like that. 
So I find that to be a positive 

513
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,000
thing. 
And in the meantime, I've 

514
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,520
continued doing a lot of like 
hamstring loading and just 

515
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,400
things to put tension and like 
strain through the posterior 

516
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,200
aspect of my knee to try to give
it some sort of stimulus. 

517
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,440
So I've been doing a lot of like
isometric Nordic hamstrings. 

518
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,520
So Nordics are where you like 
lock your knees in and then you 

519
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,440
like lower your body down. 
So I'm like going into as far as

520
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:18,800
I can and holding for like 45 
seconds like 3 to 5 reps every 

521
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,720
day if not more. 
And then a couple other 

522
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,520
hamstring loading things. 
Again, I can't say it's making 

523
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,960
any difference, but that's what 
I'm doing to just try to in this

524
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,280
period where I can't put a lot 
of load through it without 

525
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,520
aggravating stuff. 
Like I can't do loaded squats or

526
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,240
anything like that. 
It's at least putting something 

527
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,840
through my knee so that when I 
can increase activity, it hasn't

528
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,680
been sedentary. 
So I want to do as much as I 

529
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:45,640
possibly can without like 
without it being aggravated. 

530
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,640
So that's a lot of word salad 
but I don't know if y'all have 

531
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,040
thoughts or questions. 
No, I think it's good. 

532
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,920
I actually like that. 
The last thing you said, because

533
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,040
I say that to my patients all of
the time. 

534
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,920
As far as like kind of have an 
idea of where that line is, you 

535
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,160
know, of where symptoms do kind 
of start to get worse. 

536
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:05,640
And it's like, oh, I shouldn't 
have done that, right? 

537
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,240
Like if things get inflamed, 
injured, whatever, and it's not 

538
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,240
productive anymore. 
And then just take a look at 

539
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,400
where that line is and then do 
as much as you can below that 

540
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,200
line. 
And eventually over time, in 

541
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,480
theory, that line should kind of
get a little bit more tolerable,

542
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,400
a little bit more tolerable, a 
little bit more tolerable. 

543
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,880
And then that way too, when you 
do a return to something that's 

544
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,200
a little bit more vigorous, like
the activity you're mentioning, 

545
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,440
that your body's a little bit 
more adept at doing it. 

546
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,720
Where if you didn't do anything,
even if you would say you're 

547
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,440
feeling pretty good, you still 
got a long road back to getting 

548
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,000
back to where that is. 
Right. 

549
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,640
I think the other thing on that 
really quick, David and 

550
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,320
something back that Matt you had
talked about in terms of being 

551
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,200
fearful. 
I think there's for me, the 

552
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,600
question I've been asking is 
the, is the activity causing 

553
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,280
irritation or is it causing 
damage? 

554
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:53,560
And genuinely, for me, after 
four months, I didn't know if I 

555
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,960
was at the point that some of 
the activities could be leading 

556
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,560
to like damage of the structure 
if I had something going on 

557
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,840
internally in my knee. 
The MRI didn't show any internal

558
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,160
derangement or damage of any 
structures. 

559
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,120
And so then I was like, OK, 
well, then I can maybe continue 

560
00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:10,520
some loading. 
And I don't think we should be 

561
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,520
fearful, but at some point we 
can be prudent to ask those 

562
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,640
questions. 
Is there something that needs to

563
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,160
be protected from higher 
impacts? 

564
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,840
And for me, I had that question 
in my mind, but again, nothing 

565
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,600
improved without it. 
So I was like, you know what, 

566
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:27,080
I'm going to go back assuming no
damage and kind of moving 

567
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:28,480
forward, Matt, you're going to 
say something. 

568
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,360
Let me. 
That goes right into something I

569
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,280
I mentioned earlier, but I'm 
going to wake that I want to 

570
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,840
lose this other thought. 
One of the big pearls that I'm 

571
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,720
hearing that when I encourage 
people when they're either new 

572
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,760
runners getting into running or 
if you're coming back from 

573
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,240
something and you're whatever 
reason you're easing back into 

574
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,400
running, there are three major 
variables that you want to think

575
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,760
about. 
So there is duration, which is 

576
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,760
kind of the primary thing that 
Nathan was talking about going, 

577
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,440
Hey, what you know, I had my 
three mile or my 30 minutes and 

578
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,400
I increased it to 5055, right. 
So that's you're increasing the 

579
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,480
duration to run. 
That was a little bit much. 

580
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,840
You're going to back it off and 
maybe try a little bit in maybe 

581
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,560
40 minutes this time. 
So there's duration, there's 

582
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,360
intensity, right, how fast 
you're going, intervals, speed 

583
00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:11,480
work, stuff like that. 
You're keeping a consistent 

584
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,800
pace, you're keeping consistency
intensity the same. 

585
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,600
And then there's also frequency.
You're going, I'm running three 

586
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,280
times a week. 
I'm not suddenly going jumping 

587
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:24,920
to five, I'm going 3. 
So it's duration, intensity and 

588
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:26,800
frequency. 
These are three variables that 

589
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,400
you could mess with as you get 
into running. 

590
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,560
But you need to only increase 
one at a time because when you 

591
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,040
start doing all three, that can 
really put you at risk for 

592
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,360
overtraining injuries because 
your body has to adapt. 

593
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,600
Running is a lot. 
There's a lot of forces. 

594
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,080
Your body needs time to adapt to
it. 

595
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,200
So if you're going to go through
and go, I've got three things I 

596
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,160
can work with, Which one do I 
want to work with at one time? 

597
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:50,960
And I think here you go. 
Yeah, I'm just doing one at a 

598
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:52,960
time. 
Slowly building this up is the 

599
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,480
the best way to do this, to make
sure you don't irritate 

600
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,240
anything. 
So it's like, yeah, choose one 

601
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,520
of the three variables to work 
on at a time. 

602
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:01,320
I think it was a really key 
Pearl. 

603
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,040
And that goes with adding 
additional things as well, like 

604
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:06,760
let's say you're adding weight 
lifting, you're adding 

605
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,200
plyometric training. 
You are, yeah. 

606
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,600
What's up? 
That's trail running. 

607
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,760
And then yeah, yeah. 
It's a really good point because

608
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,400
I actually before I started 
running again, I started a 

609
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,840
lifting program again. 
So I before I went and started 

610
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,440
this kind of run, walk thing, I 
had three weeks of lifting down 

611
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,680
here where I was doing kind of 
full body, really light lower 

612
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,120
body and then upper body kind of
lifts and stuff like that. 

613
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:33,960
So I think, and I think that 
that was important, to have 

614
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,920
those separated where I didn't 
start lifting and running again 

615
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,360
at the same time, because then 
I'd get conflated on what's good

616
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,520
or bad or not. 
So what? 

617
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,080
So if we're going to if, if we 
can expand those so we have 

618
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,000
duration, frequency, intensity, 
what would you call the fourth 

619
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:53,080
thing like other, like other? 
Activities or whatever you want 

620
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,800
to call it, yeah. 
Part it's like just general 

621
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,920
activities yeah just again, it's
like it's not trying to make 

622
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,880
people like paranoid just going 
you have you know, like if you 

623
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,440
got goals yeah like if you have 
goals like take your it's always

624
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,320
best to take your time. 
Don't let go like snail's pace, 

625
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,160
but just make sure that you give
your body time to adapt to each 

626
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,080
one of the things most injuries 
and we've talked. 

627
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,520
I was laughing because I was 
listening one of our podcasts 

628
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,200
and Nathan asked me he was like,
oh, what are some things to 

629
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,040
think about for this? 
And I immediately jumped into 

630
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:24,960
the biomechanical stuff, which I
always do. 

631
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,320
And then you're quietly like, 
well, I mean, don't forget about

632
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:28,880
the other factors, like are you 
sleeping? 

633
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,720
With me. 
Like every single time. 

634
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:34,360
It's like the really excited 
Golden Richard. 

635
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,080
Let me talk about these 
biomechanicals you like. 

636
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:37,560
Yeah. 
And then don't forget the like 

637
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,440
the basic life stuff too. 
I'm like, damn it. 

638
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,480
So yeah, it's. 
It's no tension, baby. 

639
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:47,120
How? 
Yeah, yeah, it's knowing how to 

640
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,200
balance this out and go, you 
know, like make your body 

641
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,960
doesn't really know the 
difference between a interval 

642
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,320
workout and a highly. 
Stressful life. 

643
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,400
And so, yeah. 
Yeah, yeah. 

644
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,520
So it's like being able and 
don't, that doesn't mean every 

645
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,600
time you have a life, but you 
like just drop your training, 

646
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,360
but it means, you know, give 
your give yourself some leeway 

647
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,440
to make sure that you're 
adjusting to stress and stress 

648
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,480
can be a hard interval session. 
It can be a very challenging 

649
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,680
thing in life. 
So just something to think 

650
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,920
about. 
Well, before we get to David, 

651
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,800
I'm going to interrupt this 
programming to I thought you 

652
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,120
were going. 
To say you're going to no. 

653
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,360
I'm not going to interrupt this 
and we're just going to not 

654
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:25,280
listen to David. 
Don't scam. 

655
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,840
I'm going to interrupt this 
programming to give a response 

656
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,400
to some questions that we've 
gotten millions of times over 

657
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,080
the years about the difference 
between rockers and toe springs.

658
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,200
I have drawn a fun little thing.
This is just like a brain break 

659
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,520
for everybody. 
I've drawn a fun thing on our J.

660
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,440
What are the notepad that has J 
on it for Jana? 

661
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,000
So this is our high tech. 
Right here. 

662
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:51,440
So if you're on YouTube, you can
see this. 

663
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,280
And so I've got 4 scenarios. 
What I have drawn are the mid 

664
00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,360
soles of different shoes 
scenario #1 looks like a 

665
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,120
rectangle because it has 
neither. 

666
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,760
Toe. 
Spring nor a rocker because 

667
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,000
there is nothing. 
Thank you for not trolling. 

668
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,320
Scenario 2 is one that does not 
have toe spring, but it does 

669
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,600
have rocker. 
You can notice that toe spring 

670
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,320
refers to the shaping of the 
platform that your foot is on, 

671
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,640
and if it's curved up, that is 
toe spring. 

672
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,680
It is taking your toe and 
springing it upwards, whereas 

673
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:29,320
the rocker is a curvature of the
foam underneath with the foot 

674
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,560
not interacting with the foot. 
Scenario #3 like never happens. 

675
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,080
But this would be a midsole that
has a toe spring but no rocker. 

676
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,120
And then scenario 4 is rather 
common and it's one that has an 

677
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,640
up slope of the platform your 
foots on. 

678
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,080
So it yes, it has toe spring and
it has curvature of the foam 

679
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,240
underneath your foot, which is a
rocker. 

680
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,760
So this is showing, I should say
this is showing 4 foot rocker 

681
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,640
because rocker can be the 
entire, you know, length of a 

682
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:56,120
shoe. 
The bevel, a heel bevel is 

683
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,160
technically part of a rocker, 
but for four foot rocker these 

684
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,280
are the differences between toe 
spring and four foot rocker. 

685
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,440
Hopefully that helps clear it up
and if you're just listening 

686
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,160
either the description helped or
you can go on YouTube and check 

687
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:09,360
it. 
Out. 

688
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,080
That should be a YouTube short 
right there. 

689
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,680
Can I? 
Can I add something on this? 

690
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,240
The reason we talk about this is
that there are a couple 

691
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,960
different rocker mechanisms 
naturally in your foot that that

692
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,480
just when when they're intact 
are really important for normal 

693
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,080
efficient gates, whether it's 
walking or running. 

694
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,080
The one at the front is called 
the four foot rocker and it 

695
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,360
refers without the shoe to your 
ability to extend your toes and 

696
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,520
roll over them. 
So it actually helps maintain 

697
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,240
forward momentum because if you 
kept your toes straight and 

698
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,600
stiff, it's really hard. 
It's like getting over a stiff 

699
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,560
board. 
Those allow both like you to 

700
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,160
transition over that and also 
what's really nice is when you 

701
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,760
do that, it actually is the the 
function of the plantar fascia 

702
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,200
actually helps stiffen up your 
foot. 

703
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,000
So it creates A rigid lever in 
like the back part of your foot 

704
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,480
so you can toe off and push off.
So it's a really nice mechanism.

705
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,680
When you get a shoe that's 
really stiff, you have to 

706
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,040
maintain that or you're going to
get to this. 

707
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,960
What's that really stiff, you 
know, board like feeling, trying

708
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,960
to get over the front. 
So the forefoot rocker of a shoe

709
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,239
refers to the curb underneath 
the foot, not extending the 

710
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,199
toes, but the front part curves 
upward to help facilitate that 

711
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:23,719
forward roll that gets lost when
a shoe is too stiff. 

712
00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:28,400
That's different from toe spring
and that's where either that 4 

713
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,960
foot rocker goes up so far that 
pulls the toe and extension or 

714
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,400
the as Nathan mentioned, there 
are some shoes out there that 

715
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,239
just naturally like the front, 
just like it's not a lot of a 

716
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,199
like rocker, but you'll have a 
flexible shoe. 

717
00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:44,000
But the the front of the shoe 
for whatever reason comes up and

718
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,400
your toes are naturally held at 
some extension. 

719
00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:49,199
And the reason at least I talk 
about that and I get into 

720
00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:52,719
arguments with people all the 
time is that, you know, having 

721
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,360
something kept on a constant 
stretch may not always be the 

722
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,240
best thing. 
Generally we want most of the 

723
00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:01,720
time, some end range is fine, 
but you want most parts of the 

724
00:35:01,720 --> 00:35:03,920
foot to be kept in some kind of 
neutral position. 

725
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,320
Most of the time. 
Some people can handle it. 

726
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,320
And I've had arguments with with
companies with like, oh, like I 

727
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,640
want them to extend their toes 
because it makes them more 

728
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,080
efficient. 
It locks their foot up and I'm 

729
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,200
like, that might be fine for 
some people. 

730
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,080
Other people are going to be 
really sensitive to have that 

731
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,760
thing yanked on all the time 
where they may not even have 

732
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:20,520
the. 
Total motion. 

733
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,840
There was a shoe recently where 
it was fine for me and she just 

734
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:25,840
couldn't do it. 
Yeah. 

735
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,360
Hated it, Yeah. 
For that exact reason, the. 

736
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,680
Last thing, The last thing I'll 
say about this is what's not 

737
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:36,760
shown in our fun little graphic 
is 4 foot rigidity or the 

738
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,160
stiffness. 
So a rocker can exist, but if 

739
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,320
the four foot's really flexible,
the impact of that rocker is 

740
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:44,480
different than if it's more 
rigid. 

741
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,880
But let's get back to our main 
programming here. 

742
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,800
We're going to kick it over to 
David where he's going to talk 

743
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,600
about his current running 
related injuries and how he's 

744
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:53,800
managing it. 
Yeah. 

745
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,160
So I'm not injured, so we'll 
just start there. 

746
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,520
But I did have some stuff come 
up. 

747
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,400
I mean, if if anyone's been 
following me, like it's pretty 

748
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:10,040
clear I'm not running as much as
I have in the past and there's 

749
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:14,960
some reasons for that. 
But over I think 20, I've been 

750
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:21,840
running hard for a while and a 
while being several years of 70 

751
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,200
to 80 mile weeks, you know, two 
to three workouts a week, you 

752
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:31,280
know, minimum 16 mile long run 
on a Sunday, maybe maximum of 24

753
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,520
with some of those being pretty,
pretty hot on the pace. 

754
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:42,920
And it's, I think it finally 
started getting to me and it was

755
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:47,280
starting to get to me well 
before you kind of realize it 

756
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,680
getting to you, if that makes 
sense. 

757
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:54,480
And so I think like 2022 was a 
pretty Goodyear for me. 

758
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,640
I think I ran like the 1440s and
the five KS, several sub 70 

759
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:07,720
halves, low one O 9 type races. 
And then early 2023 ran 225. 

760
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,080
And then it all kind of just 
started going downhill as I went

761
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,800
into the summer. 
And I think I ran like a 111 on 

762
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,640
a flat course, which there was 
no excuse for it. 

763
00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:22,640
And it was like, I, I know that 
sounds kind of cheeky to say 

764
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,320
that, but in all reality, like 
when you're used to running 2 

765
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,040
minutes faster than that and 
you're expecting to go run one O

766
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,320
7, one O 8 based on what you've 
been running, and then you just 

767
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,960
completely tank that. 
And then it happened again later

768
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:39,160
in the year. 
And then CIM came up and we 

769
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:44,120
wanted to run, you know, give or
take probably 2/23, 2:24. 

770
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,880
And you go out in 111, you feel 
OK. 

771
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,720
And then your body starts 
breaking down and you end up 

772
00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:53,720
running like a 230, you know, 
and it's like that's not exactly

773
00:37:53,720 --> 00:37:56,240
what you want either. 
And then so like that pattern 

774
00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:57,320
kind of just. 
Unless you're me. 

775
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:02,160
Yeah, and so like that kind of 
kept happening. 

776
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:07,840
And then this last year, Fast 
forward to 2024, I'm trying to 

777
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,280
remember what races I even ran 
'cause it was kind of a year of 

778
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,120
like, well, let's kind of, I did
use Santa Barbara half. 

779
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,600
Oh, I did track and I got hurt. 
That's that. 

780
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,040
I did have an injury then. 
And I think that was kind of the

781
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,080
first part of it where like I 
just wasn't even tolerating 

782
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,160
running aggressive anymore. 
And I think I ran like 115 flat 

783
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,440
5K and my body just started 
breaking, you know, And it was 

784
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,200
just like, what the heck. 
Like I couldn't even like 

785
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,040
tolerate spikes. 
I couldn't really even tolerate 

786
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,080
running in super shoes like for 
a hard 5K anymore. 

787
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,720
And I was just like the what 
what's going on? 

788
00:38:41,720 --> 00:38:45,320
And then I kind of simmered it 
down, ramped it back up, got 

789
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:49,360
ready for Santa Barbara half and
it kind of happened again and 

790
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,520
even kind of worse, you know, 
like I, I think I ran a good 

791
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,320
race, all things considered. 
It was like a 110 something, 

792
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,600
especially on that course. 
It's a very honest course, but 

793
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:05,560
it it like took way more effort 
and work than it probably should

794
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,800
have. 
And I'm like something just 

795
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,680
doesn't feel right. 
And then like Fast forward a few

796
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,560
weeks later after that, I feel 
like I kind of started really 

797
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,760
getting the effects of like the 
chronic fatigue. 

798
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,520
And that's when I started 
messaging you guys like I'm like

799
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,600
tanked, you know, like I would 
go for like a three four mile 

800
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,720
easy run and I would just be 
floored when I got home. 

801
00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:27,440
And it's like I, I should not be
feeling like that, right? 

802
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:32,600
Like that is not. 
And so after a few workouts 

803
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,640
later after that, I was hitting 
splits. 

804
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,480
But again, I was like killing 
myself to do it and it just 

805
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:40,800
wasn't. 
And like easy stuff, you know, 

806
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:47,880
like I'm trying to think of like
an example, like there was A23 

807
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:54,440
by 2:00-ish mile workout where 
it was right around maybe 520 

808
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,200
pace, you know, which for me 
that is a doable pace. 

809
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,120
And I was, I was hitting it, but
I was like basically having to 

810
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,120
kick the last 800 to just try 
and stay on pace every Rep, you 

811
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,800
know what I mean? 
Like, and it just, and then just

812
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:12,080
absolutely dead at the end. 
And so talk to my coach and we 

813
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:13,560
kind of dialed things down for a
little bit. 

814
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,400
Things weren't really getting 
much better in three or four 

815
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,040
weeks. 
And then I decided to cancel 

816
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,240
some races that I had planned 
and then. 

817
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,120
Eventually I was like, I'm just 
not doing too good right now. 

818
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,280
So I actually stopped running 
altogether for several weeks and

819
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,760
then did see a physician and 
look at some stuff. 

820
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,280
Thankfully, labs and stuff were 
actually pretty OK. 

821
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,720
I mean, there was some stuff 
that was kind of out of the 

822
00:40:39,720 --> 00:40:43,360
ordinary, but nothing crazy. 
And I was just like, well, 

823
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,680
shoot, maybe I'm just doing too 
much, you know, and obviously 

824
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,080
I'm working full time. 
I'm doing this, I'm doing other 

825
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:50,800
side projects and things as 
well. 

826
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,800
And I think I just the impact of
doing that day in, day out, 

827
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,640
especially because like I'm 
running at, you know, 5-6 AM 

828
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,120
some of these days, you know, 
almost every single day to hit 

829
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:01,880
the mileage and the paces that 
I'm hitting. 

830
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:07,520
And I, I, yeah, I just took a 
break from that for a while and 

831
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:12,680
then slowly, ever so surely kind
of started getting back into it 

832
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,280
over the last few months. 
And then something else came up.

833
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:22,200
For privacy sake, I won't say 
who or what or why, but I was 

834
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,280
not me personally. 
I was in the hospital for about 

835
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,320
a week though. 
But I mean, I was in the 

836
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,360
hospital with the person but for
someone else. 

837
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,560
So that put an immediate halt to
things as well. 

838
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,080
And then I didn't run again for 
another couple of weeks. 

839
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,440
And now we're probably, I don't 
know, 3:00-ish weeks out from 

840
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,480
that 3-4 weeks. 
So I've just been kind of just 

841
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,640
running when I can and lifting 
when I can. 

842
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,640
And I'm not really, there's not 
much structure to things. 

843
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,840
You know, for the most part, 
it's been pretty measured 

844
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,800
outside of thank. 
You, yes, I was going to just 

845
00:41:57,840 --> 00:41:58,760
bring it up. 
Yeah. 

846
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:00,120
So. 
Outside of this morning, you. 

847
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,800
Know yeah what what did you just
decide to do randomly is it 

848
00:42:04,240 --> 00:42:06,520
outside the norms or was it 
within your normal I? 

849
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,800
Mean. 
To be fair, that used to be like

850
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,400
a pretty easy long run. 
Used to be. 

851
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:16,680
No. 
One of my buddies is getting 

852
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:21,480
ready for a marathon and asked 
if I want to run with them. 

853
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:22,720
And I was like, how far are you 
running? 

854
00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:25,160
He was like 18. 
I was like, I bet, let's do it. 

855
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:30,840
And so I hopped in and then we 
just naturally did a kind of a 

856
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:32,640
progression run without really 
meaning to. 

857
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,440
And we were probably running 6 
OS or six 10's, the last maybe 5

858
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,400
or 6. 
And yeah, I ended up being like 

859
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,240
18 miles at like, I don't know, 
640 average maybe. 

860
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,680
It's like. 
I am tired. 

861
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,160
It's not. 
I am human. 

862
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:50,800
I bet. 
Yeah. 

863
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,160
And that was by far the longest 
run I've done in a minute. 

864
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,560
But to be fair, though, like, I 
know what 18 feels like. 

865
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:00,880
And I knew going into it kind of
what to expect and kind of where

866
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:02,320
I'm at. 
I was like, I'll probably get to

867
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:04,560
15 and then I'll get tired and 
then I'll struggle through three

868
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,640
and then I'll be fine. 
It's kind of what I thought. 

869
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:08,640
And right around 16 is when I 
started feeling it. 

870
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:10,880
And at that point I only had two
more miles and then I finished 

871
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,120
when it was done. 
So I was like kind of a no harm,

872
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:15,280
no foul. 
I don't have any pain. 

873
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,920
I don't have anything, you know,
anything going wrong. 

874
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,640
I knew I was going to take 
tomorrow morning off anyways, so

875
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:22,400
I was like, I'll have a full day
to recover. 

876
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:27,440
So there was some prudence. 
It wasn't entirely just, that's 

877
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:33,240
great. 
Yeah, I know what I'm signing up

878
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,240
for like in accepting this run. 
But yeah, prior to that, my 

879
00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:39,320
longest run was last Sunday at 
11. 

880
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,560
So and then prior to that, my 
longest run was probably what, 

881
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:45,560
maybe 6? 
Yeah. 

882
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,120
Over the last couple weeks. 
Well, I've got a, I've got a 

883
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,800
question for you. 
So I know you don't have like a 

884
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,720
diagnosis for kind of what was 
leading to this like excessive 

885
00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:56,040
fatigue. 
Maybe it was some sort of like 

886
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,360
overtraining syndrome esque type
thing. 

887
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,720
What were the early signs that 
you feel like looking back? 

888
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,640
Were there any early signs that 
you could have picked up on that

889
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,400
you maybe could have nipped this
early? 

890
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,000
Or do you feel like there wasn't
really much you could have 

891
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,120
changed? 
Or what kind of reflections have

892
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:15,000
you? 
Had yeah, that's a great 

893
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,320
question. 
I think honestly, it probably 

894
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:24,080
comes down to a life balance. 
I just do a lot of things right,

895
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:31,040
like, and so I think recognizing
the signs of stress before it 

896
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,800
gets to that point because there
were mornings where like it was 

897
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,160
not uncommon for me to run 14 
miles before going and seeing my

898
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,400
first patient. 
And some of those could be some 

899
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,960
really hard miles, you know, 
like if it's a workout day, and 

900
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,360
so you might have 8, an 8-9 mile
workout and you have a three 

901
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:47,560
mile warm up and a three mile 
cooldown. 

902
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,520
What does that put you at? 
I don't even know 6 + 915, 

903
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,560
right? 
So like that's 15 before you see

904
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:55,640
your first patient, then you see
all your patients, then you do 

905
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,760
your documentation, then you 
come home, then you write 

906
00:44:57,760 --> 00:44:58,960
something or you record 
something. 

907
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,200
Then I do have the cooking. 
So I, I then I cook dinner and 

908
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,360
then, you know, stuff like that.
And then like it all kind of 

909
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:07,640
just added up, I think over a 
long period of time. 

910
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:13,520
But I think recognizing the 
feelings of how I start my day, 

911
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:17,280
I think has been big. 
Because if I'm starting frantic 

912
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,920
and I'm trying to get ready 
really quick and I'm stressed 

913
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,440
out, and then maybe I don't eat 
as much or I don't have time to 

914
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:26,040
eat, or then I rush over to work
and then I'm like, OK, boom, 

915
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,200
boom, boom, let's go, you know? 
And then like we're working and 

916
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,000
we're doing the thing. 
And then then you get home and 

917
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,760
then you're just like super 
tired just because of it's been 

918
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,680
a big day already. 
And it's what, 6:00 And then you

919
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,760
have other things to do. 
And I think noticing the stress 

920
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,520
and also noticing my own 
patience with things. 

921
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,320
Not that I'm an impatient 
person, but it's just like, like

922
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,080
the things that normally 
wouldn't get to you at all. 

923
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,200
And then you start noticing 
like, hey, that's kind of 

924
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:53,600
irritating. 
Like, why is that irritating me?

925
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:54,920
That shouldn't be irritating me,
right? 

926
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,440
Like little things like that. 
I think it was a very slow 

927
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,360
accumulation. 
I actually do give my body some 

928
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,520
credit for how long it was able 
to kind of endure that the way 

929
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,720
it has been doing that. 
Because truth be told, I mean, 

930
00:46:08,720 --> 00:46:14,080
prior to 2021-2022, if I ran 70 
miles, I broke. 

931
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:17,920
I literally like even in 
college, I think every single 

932
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:21,040
time I touched 70, I literally 
had a stress fracture or like 

933
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,560
something come up. 
Like I was very, very injury 

934
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,160
prone when I was younger and 
that was like the first time I 

935
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,600
was actually able to kind of 
like sustain now being APT and 

936
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,720
doing all the right things and 
keep myself healthy, right? 

937
00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:34,960
Like all that stuff. 
But I think the sheer level of 

938
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:40,400
work to maintain that type of a 
competitive profile, mileage, do

939
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,280
the things and then do all the 
other things that I'm doing as 

940
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:43,320
well. 
It was just a lot. 

941
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,360
And I was running like 7080 mile
weeks for like what, three 

942
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:51,480
years, 223 years straight 
without really much of a break 

943
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,320
at all, unless it was after a 
marathon or something. 

944
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,760
And I, I think it just finally 
got to me, you know, I, I think 

945
00:46:57,760 --> 00:46:59,960
if anything, it wasn't 
necessarily an overtraining 

946
00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:04,240
syndrome and more so of just a 
burnout probably of everything, 

947
00:47:05,240 --> 00:47:07,480
especially once I got the labs 
back and it looked OK. 

948
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,240
And it was like, if I like, if 
it's just simply, I'm doing too 

949
00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:11,800
much, I can be OK with that, 
right? 

950
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,760
Like, and I just dial back and 
get better and, you know, start 

951
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,840
to feel good again. 
And I think the things that made

952
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,080
it really obvious because for me
it was like the running was 

953
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:22,440
hard, right? 
Like I was having a hard time 

954
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,080
running hard and there's a 
difference. 

955
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:28,400
I think like if you've been 
running long enough and you have

956
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,560
run competitively or you are, 
you are, you know, the 

957
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:35,000
difference between running easy 
and racing or doing workouts. 

958
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:39,000
And like you have that 
delineation, like running 18 is 

959
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:43,360
not the same as running 18 hard,
you know, And I think that is 

960
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:47,240
worth bringing up because it's 
like, I running hard got hard, 

961
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:49,920
you know, and I was like, OK, 
well, sometimes that happens. 

962
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,000
Maybe I'm just tired. 
Then running easy got hard for 

963
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,600
distance and then running easy 
for short distance got hard, 

964
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:56,760
right? 
And then I was like, OK, 

965
00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:00,560
something's not right. 
And then the same thing with 

966
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,320
just like fatigue levels 
throughout the day when when it 

967
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,840
starts affecting the day-to-day 
and you're like, you know, 

968
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:07,640
getting to the end of the work 
day and you're just floored. 

969
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,280
It's like fudge, dude. 
Like that's not ideal by any 

970
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,440
means. 
So just monitoring energy levels

971
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,040
and stress and kind of 
recognizing some of those early 

972
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,800
signs before they get bad. 
And I think that's been a big 

973
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,400
reflection on my own part and 
kind of managing my my energy 

974
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,280
and my stress. 
I think I have always told 

975
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,440
people if it was just the 
running, I don't think that 

976
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,880
would have really happened. 
I think it's the accumulation of

977
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,840
everything else as well on top 
of the running. 

978
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:37,880
Yeah, because of all I had to do
that. 

979
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:41,520
Was prudent of you, it was 
prudent of you to go at that 

980
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:44,240
point when it was affecting 
day-to-day to go get things 

981
00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:48,040
checked out from a medical 
standpoint because in your case 

982
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:51,240
it was clear, which is great, 
but it was the time. 

983
00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:53,080
It was time. 
To go to check right, like, and 

984
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:56,120
that's when like you're exciting
yourself with something came up 

985
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:57,800
and you could have totally 
prevented it. 

986
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,240
So there is a time, even if 
you're a medical professional to

987
00:49:01,240 --> 00:49:03,440
kind of look in the mirror there
and be like, I got to get some, 

988
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:04,840
I got to someone's got to look 
at this. 

989
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,040
This isn't right. 
Thankfully, it was relatively 

990
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:12,160
clear, and I'm happy it was. 
But yeah, I just kind of 

991
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,760
managing all of that stuff. 
And, you know, the last few 

992
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,040
weeks have actually been kind of
nice, you know, just running. 

993
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:22,080
And I'm running when I kind of 
feel like it. 

994
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:26,840
And if I want to push, I push. 
If I don't, I don't. 

995
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:31,360
And I haven't really tried doing
hard formal workouts and things 

996
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,040
like that again, but that hasn't
exactly spoken to me yet. 

997
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,760
And at the same time, it also 
wouldn't be prudent to go hit, 

998
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:43,000
you know, 10 by 1K or like, you 
know, like, I haven't been 

999
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,080
running that much, right? 
Like, let's just get better at 

1000
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:49,680
running again 1st. 
And I have been hitting some 

1001
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,040
strides and trying to make sure 
I don't lose too much of that 

1002
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:56,200
kind of fast twitch stuff and 
trying to just make them fun and

1003
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:58,800
implement them where I can and 
where it makes sense. 

1004
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:03,480
And then, yeah, just kind of 
just doing those things. 

1005
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:09,400
Does that answer the question? 
I think, yeah, Yeah. 

1006
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:14,320
And then just spacing out my 
levels of attention and like, 

1007
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,680
effort, because I think that's 
part of it too, right? 

1008
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:19,840
You want to do a good job at 
everything that you do. 

1009
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,440
But if you go all out on 
everything you do all of the 

1010
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:26,040
time, it doesn't it's. 
Never 30 balls in the air. 

1011
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:30,960
Yeah, it's never a great Rd. to 
success there or happiness or 

1012
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,880
everything. 
So you're just going to be tired

1013
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:37,320
and forward all the time. 
So unfortunately that's probably

1014
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:42,720
the least interesting or the 
least positive interesting. 

1015
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:44,840
Yeah, but things are better now 
and IT. 

1016
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:46,480
Can be a sneaky. 
One yeah, totally. 

1017
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:48,800
And once the day-to-day stuff 
started getting better again, I 

1018
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,240
was like, OK, like where I'm 
going in the right direction. 

1019
00:50:51,240 --> 00:50:54,080
Like, like dialing things back 
is good. 

1020
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,440
I'm not floored. 
Like, I don't feel like I I'm 

1021
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,000
falling asleep while cooking 
dinner, you know, that's what I 

1022
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,160
got to. 
And there was a couple. 

1023
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,320
Of nights weren't waking up at 
all, yeah. 

1024
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:05,280
You like couldn't wake up and 
then like, yeah, I was missing 

1025
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,360
runs because I was like sleeping
through things. 

1026
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:09,280
And then I'm running in the 
evening because I got to run, 

1027
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:12,160
you know? 
And then and at that .2, things 

1028
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,120
were programmed right? 
Like I'm hitting a plan of some 

1029
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,120
kind. 
And so right now I don't have 

1030
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:20,040
anything programmed formally, so
I'm kind of just doing whatever 

1031
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:25,560
feels right. 
But that's not anti program by 

1032
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:27,040
any means. 
I think there's a lot of value 

1033
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:30,280
to having programs and training 
programs and I I want to make 

1034
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:35,080
sure that's very, very clear. 
But yeah, I think I'm just kind 

1035
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:39,960
of just getting back to running 
again and trying to kind of get 

1036
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:42,040
the enjoyment out of it again 
too, because I think I had a 

1037
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,840
very business kind of 
relationship with it. 

1038
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,720
It's like I'm doing this to get 
this or to do this. 

1039
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:52,280
I'm not exactly doing this 
because it's fun per SE. 

1040
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:57,960
So yeah, it's an interesting 
kind of psychologic experiment 

1041
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:03,160
there to kind of go through 
unintentionally, but but it's 

1042
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:04,160
good. 
I'm not floored. 

1043
00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:08,080
I'm not, you know, exhausted all
the time and things are are 

1044
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:09,840
coming back around. 
I'm feeling more like me again, 

1045
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:13,160
so that's great. 
Good Matt, you're going to say 

1046
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:14,680
something. 
And also don't forget to circle 

1047
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,800
back to the fear thingy that you
wanted to talk about. 

1048
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,240
Do you have any last questions 
Nathan for David on this stuff 

1049
00:52:22,240 --> 00:52:23,760
before I kind of summarize a 
little bit. 

1050
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,800
I think this is actually perfect
David to go to have this kind of

1051
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,880
three distinct things Reminder 
fairly clear musculoskeletal 

1052
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:34,080
Nathan were cut. 
You know it's it's not as clear,

1053
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,640
but it's going OK, you've tested
this and going OK, it's not it 

1054
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:39,240
being affected by running for 
the most unless you go too far 

1055
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:41,520
right. 
So that's going OK, so you can 

1056
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:42,680
run. 
So you're learning how to kind 

1057
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,440
of strategize this. 
And then David yours the the 

1058
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:49,960
kind of the final piece of going
yeah, this is a non a not a like

1059
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,040
cut and dry MSK or 
musculoskeletal thing that 

1060
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:56,560
there's probably a more global 
whether it's endocrine, whether 

1061
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:59,720
it's whole body system nervous, 
like everything involved going 

1062
00:52:59,720 --> 00:53:02,160
how you feel like going yeah, 
when you're a runner or you're 

1063
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,800
any athlete, it's not just hey, 
how's this tendon feel? 

1064
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,600
But it's looking at the whole 
person going where is this 

1065
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:08,880
coming from? 
But then also being able to 

1066
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:13,360
identify, Hey, here are these 
other this is now affecting 

1067
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:15,600
beyond running. 
Not only were you experiencing 

1068
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:18,320
fatigue with easy runs in it, 
it's like you couldn't wake up. 

1069
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,800
You had higher irritability, 
which is also a a classic sign 

1070
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:26,240
that something kind of deeper 
non MSK is going on and then 

1071
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:29,120
going, OK, this is now affecting
my daily life. 

1072
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,000
And so now I really need to get 
this checked out. 

1073
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:35,080
So even if it's not the same 
systems, the same concept as is 

1074
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,520
it just during running, hey, OK,
I need to pay attention to that.

1075
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:40,600
But now that's starting to 
really extend beyond that. 

1076
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:45,160
This is a is more serious than 
we need to consider a physician 

1077
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,320
and some what whatever with this
blood work, whether it's 

1078
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:50,760
additional stuff, But it wasn't 
like that was that wasn't the 

1079
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,400
first thing you went for. 
It was like, OK, I need to 

1080
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:54,720
experience this. 
What's going on. 

1081
00:53:54,720 --> 00:53:57,200
Let me test retested. 
But all three of us kind of 

1082
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:01,680
talked about how we did that for
very different systems, but then

1083
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:05,840
it was, OK, so here's when I 
need to escalate this or here's,

1084
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:08,760
you know what, it's still OK, 
this is manageable. 

1085
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:10,720
You know, so there's different 
levels of being able to 

1086
00:54:10,720 --> 00:54:14,280
recognize when this is something
that you need to escalate, maybe

1087
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,240
double check and other things 
like, OK, this is more 

1088
00:54:16,240 --> 00:54:18,200
manageable. 
It's not affecting other things.

1089
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,800
So I think this was a perfect 
group to kind of have three 

1090
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:24,720
different experiences and go 
through this. 

1091
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,360
The reason I wanted to talk 
going, Nathan, is there David, 

1092
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,200
is there anything you want to 
add before I jump into the fear 

1093
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:31,960
avoidance component? 
Nope. 

1094
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:34,440
Go warriors. 
Sweet. 

1095
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:37,840
I knew it. 
I knew that was coming and I 

1096
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,920
almost said the same thing. 
You know, we'll also say this is

1097
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,720
the most boring March Madness. 
That. 

1098
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:45,760
Has ever existed. 
Ever. 

1099
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:48,600
Especially for us because our 
teams lost them. 

1100
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:51,400
Yeah, I was really hoping they 
don't meet each other, you know?

1101
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:53,280
We get to meet each. 
Other and it could have happened

1102
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:57,200
maybe, I don't know. 
But anyways, the fact that it's 

1103
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:00,800
I also just love trolling both 
of you. 

1104
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,600
It's great. 
But because I know this is 

1105
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,000
driving that crazy right now, 
but for those that are 

1106
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:10,160
following, so the Elite Eight 
games just finished up right 

1107
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:12,760
before we recorded this. 
So that would have been the 

1108
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:18,160
Michigan State and Auburn. 
Every single one seed is in the 

1109
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,480
Final Four. 
And it annoys the crap out of me

1110
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:22,920
because there was like, no, it 
was like such a boring 

1111
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:24,440
storyline. 
And then the Elite Eight this 

1112
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:29,040
year was a one versus 21 versus 
21 versus 21 versus 3. 

1113
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,920
There was like no true like 
Cinderella run or like anything 

1114
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:37,080
like if you count Arkansas, but 
they're coached by Calipari and 

1115
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:40,400
like, like if you told me 
Calipari can be on any team with

1116
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:44,160
any number and it's like they'll
be fine, right? 

1117
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:48,720
Like. 
They're coached well then I told

1118
00:55:48,720 --> 00:55:52,160
this to David already, but the 
one pro to the all the one seeds

1119
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:56,120
making it is Henry. 
My 7 year old picked all the 

1120
00:55:56,120 --> 00:56:00,240
final four correct and had seven
out of the 8 elite 8 correct. 

1121
00:56:00,720 --> 00:56:03,440
And so he's in first place in 
our family bracket, which is 

1122
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:06,720
like 15 or 16 people. 
So pretty exciting for him. 

1123
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:11,560
That's the only pro plus David, 
David Salas and Henry share a 

1124
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:13,600
birthday. 
So basically David is winning 

1125
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:15,280
the bracket because they're 
birthday buddies. 

1126
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:19,480
So it is a it is a good thing 
for David as well. 

1127
00:56:21,240 --> 00:56:22,400
Yeah. 
And we could, should we just 

1128
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:25,240
turn this into an NAL podcast 
talking about what the influence

1129
00:56:25,240 --> 00:56:28,800
of the current state of NIL on 
on like what's going on in 

1130
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,360
college athletics. 
But then the potential changes 

1131
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:33,520
that are coming with revenue 
sharing and how we're in kind of

1132
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:35,160
in this flux state. 
We don't know what it's going to

1133
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:37,240
actually turn on it. 
But let's go over to Matt. 

1134
00:56:37,240 --> 00:56:39,120
What do you want to talk about 
with fear avoidance? 

1135
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:41,880
I feel like I have to get my 
brain back on track. 

1136
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:50,200
All right, so going back. 
There's all these interesting 

1137
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:57,400
things I could talk. 
The NIH deal stuff is kind of 

1138
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,080
interesting to me, to be honest.
I was like, huh, Yeah, NI sorry,

1139
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:00,920
the yeah. 
NIH. 

1140
00:57:01,240 --> 00:57:02,920
Yeah, even. 
Though. 

1141
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:06,280
NIH is the national super of 
health everybody. 

1142
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:09,320
Health and that's where 
reluctance came from for 

1143
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:11,880
research, so that are. 
Getting. 

1144
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:14,440
Yeah. 
Even what he's not trying to be.

1145
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:20,760
Fear avoidance. 
Yes, please tell me it's in a 

1146
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:22,160
fun, better review that you're 
about. 

1147
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:26,720
No, the it's the stuff that I 
teach. 

1148
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:30,560
So Nathan and I share some 
similarities where we both teach

1149
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:33,680
the modalities course at a 
respective universities and the 

1150
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,760
challenge with and we've talked 
about ice, heat, massage, all 

1151
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:38,960
the kind of stuff and the kind 
of variable responses. 

1152
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:43,720
But what I did with my students 
is I took them down a very 

1153
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:46,840
intense journey on pain science 
because I really wanted to 

1154
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:50,080
understand, because you can look
at a modality like example, we 

1155
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:52,760
taught, we've done an episode on
form rulers before and you can 

1156
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:54,840
go, well, the evidence says this
doesn't do anything. 

1157
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:56,640
And then you're going to have 
somebody that actually responds 

1158
00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:59,760
really positively to it. 
And there might be some factor 

1159
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:02,120
where the like this, this 
person, just whatever 

1160
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:03,920
mechanically or whatever 
responds well. 

1161
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:08,200
But there's also this other 
factor of how people respond 

1162
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:10,400
psychologically to the things 
around them. 

1163
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:13,720
And so when you talk about pain,
you cannot, people need to 

1164
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:17,840
realize that pain is not just a 
on off, like an on off Switcher 

1165
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:21,680
like you always push here and it
hurts that that's not how that 

1166
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:24,800
works. 
Pain is a very multi factorial 

1167
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:26,800
complex thing. 
The way I like to break it up 

1168
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:28,640
and I'm going to try to keep 
this simple because there's 

1169
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:31,200
actually a lot more of this is 
there's three kind of primary 

1170
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,840
phenotypes or parts of this is 
there's no ceceptive type pain. 

1171
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:36,440
That's you're like, I poke 
myself. 

1172
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:38,280
It hurts. 
It's really consistent out out, 

1173
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:40,560
out, right? 
That's there's a lot of 

1174
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,280
receptors and different things 
and nerves and areas in your in 

1175
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:46,680
your skin and your extremities 
and what have you, all of your 

1176
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:49,760
body that like it's consistent. 
It sends a signal to your brain.

1177
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:52,200
That's how that works. 
That's no susception. 

1178
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:54,600
There's also neuropathic pain, 
and that's pain. 

1179
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,440
It's very specific to nerves or 
nerve irritation. 

1180
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:00,320
You usually get your numbness, 
tingling, your shooting kind of 

1181
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:03,080
stuff, and then you have your 
nosy plastic pain, which is 

1182
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:05,520
probably one that people aren't 
really aware of, but that's more

1183
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:08,200
of your like sensual type stuff.
That's how your brain's 

1184
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:10,400
interpreting things. 
That's how like what level of 

1185
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:13,800
threat you're perceiving. 
You have to realize that fear 

1186
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:18,080
avoidance and fear directly 
impacts pain because pain is 

1187
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:20,840
technically a threat response. 
It's your body's way of saying, 

1188
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,120
hold on here, what's going on? 
We have to protect ourselves 

1189
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:26,560
from damage and you can have 
pain without actually having any

1190
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:28,360
damage. 
For example, somebody that a 

1191
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:30,800
really good example of this, 
someone with phantom limb pain 

1192
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:33,400
that's had an amputation. 
They don't have a limb, but if 

1193
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:36,400
you ask them about this large 
portion of that population will 

1194
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:38,400
have very intense pain. 
It's very real. 

1195
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:42,800
And if you hook up FM RIS, their
brain is very much really like 

1196
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:44,840
they're those all these sensors 
are really firing up. 

1197
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:47,640
So they really experience pain 
in an area that doesn't exist. 

1198
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:52,840
So pain is a threat response. 
The more you know, right? 

1199
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:55,920
That's why we're so lucky to 
have the knowledge that we do 

1200
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:57,880
that we can a lot of things 
we're going to go, OK, I 

1201
00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:00,560
understand, I understand this. 
We are naturally going to 

1202
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:03,240
probably have a little bit less 
symptom, a little bit less pain 

1203
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:05,400
intensity because we're able to 
go, I know what this is. 

1204
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:08,240
I know how to react to this. 
If it's really intense, I also 

1205
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:10,600
know how to react. 
And that's the beauty of the 

1206
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:13,280
more you educate yourself and 
learn about the body and the 

1207
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:16,760
more experience you have, the 
more you can go, Hey, you know 

1208
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:18,120
what? 
I know this is flowing up a 

1209
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:19,960
little bit, but I have a good 
idea what this is. 

1210
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:23,560
Or, you know, I need to be 
patient before I jump, like jump

1211
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:25,640
my horses or jump the gun or 
whatever phrase that I'm going 

1212
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:29,080
to say incorrectly. 
You know I let me let me re 

1213
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:30,680
evaluate. 
And really think about where 

1214
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:34,160
this is because panicking is 
only going to increase your 

1215
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:36,960
symptoms more. 
The more you can really try to 

1216
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:40,400
go, let me take a breath, try to
get some blood flow in my brain 

1217
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:43,040
so I can logically think about 
this, the better you're going to

1218
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:44,360
do. 
And there's very good evidence 

1219
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:46,880
that people that have really 
high fear avoidance, they're 

1220
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:48,680
very, they freak out really 
intensely. 

1221
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:52,120
Like, Oh my gosh, they tend to 
have higher levels of pain and 

1222
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:55,040
chronicity of symptoms. 
People that tend to be a little 

1223
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:57,320
bit more calm and tend to be 
able a little more level head 

1224
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:00,160
and approach things carefully, 
which I, I've gotten to be able 

1225
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:02,400
to be over my lifetime, but I 
still freak out plenty. 

1226
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:06,400
They tend to have lower levels 
of pain and chronicity because 

1227
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:09,440
pain isn't just a physical 
thing. 

1228
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:12,000
It is a very complex thing. 
And the more you can approach it

1229
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:15,000
carefully, kind of and hopefully
learn from what each of the 

1230
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:17,480
three of us have shared, the 
more we hope you're going to 

1231
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,200
have more controllable stuff. 
And pain isn't your enemy. 

1232
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:23,120
It's a friend. 
It's a it's, it's, it can get 

1233
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:27,960
out of control, but it's, it's 
can be learn your relationship 

1234
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:29,280
with it. 
It's not a bad thing. 

1235
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:32,000
It just guides you and you just 
have to be able to react and go,

1236
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:33,640
OK, what does this mean? 
What does this mean in the 

1237
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:36,560
context of things? 
And hope that helps. 

1238
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:39,000
Because fear avoidance 
definitely, if it's really high 

1239
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:42,840
can put you at risk for lots of 
injuries and repeated things and

1240
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:45,720
definitely can sensitize you 
where you react even more and 

1241
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:49,200
have more pain just because 
you've had these experiences. 

1242
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:52,640
So this does get a little like 
if you're really experiencing 

1243
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:54,920
repeated stuff and it's get 
starting to get worse and worse 

1244
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:58,080
and worse and it looks like it's
non MSK, make sure you see the 

1245
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:00,400
right provider, right? 
That's part of us being the 

1246
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,360
doctorate level of PT is knowing
when to refer to. 

1247
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:04,840
And there's some really awesome 
people. 

1248
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:07,800
Be at physicians, be at some of 
the phenomenal psychologists out

1249
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:09,320
there to kind of help you work 
through stuff. 

1250
01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:12,720
So try to see if you can 
identify where it is, approach 

1251
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:14,880
it calmly, and go, how do I 
really work through this and how

1252
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:16,600
do I make intelligent decisions 
about this? 

1253
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:18,680
I promise you your pain will be 
more manageable. 

1254
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:22,640
Yeah, I think as we as we wrap 
things up here, this little 

1255
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:27,240
conversation makes me say we 
definitely need to bring on some

1256
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:30,440
sort of pain scientist to have 
them share their research, maybe

1257
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:31,840
Adrian Gray or something like 
that. 

1258
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:34,760
Like bring on somebody who who 
has been doing this for a long 

1259
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:37,000
time and doing the research in 
the sphere would be really 

1260
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:41,840
fascinating for us to hear. 
The second thing or the second 

1261
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:44,720
thing I was going to say is as a
coach. 

1262
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:47,000
So I got a coach with pineries 
running and we've got a couple 

1263
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:49,840
PT coaches. 
I think that's one of the 

1264
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:54,240
greatest spaces we fill with our
athletes is they have something 

1265
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:58,000
pop up, they're concerned about 
it and we can just provide some 

1266
01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:03,040
statistics for research or an 
explanation for what is typical.

1267
01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:06,160
And just talking about that 
knowledge piece of like, this is

1268
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:07,600
how you can be thinking about 
this. 

1269
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:12,240
And that really helps runners 
who are going through something 

1270
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:15,360
for the first time and haven't 
had the experience to draw back.

1271
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:17,560
And I'm like, Oh yes, this comes
and goes and that's fine. 

1272
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:22,600
Having that at your fingertips 
with coaching, I think is one of

1273
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:24,720
the best things you could get 
out of coaching that you don't 

1274
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:29,640
get from training plans because 
having somebody who knows a bit 

1275
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:34,200
about that stuff can be helpful.
So thank you both for being 

1276
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:38,760
vulnerable about what's been 
going on in your physical body 

1277
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:43,520
and in in and beyond. 
It's a huge gift for me to be 

1278
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:45,200
able to learn from y'all in that
way. 

1279
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:49,320
And hopefully us sharing our 
stories has helped you all think

1280
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:51,920
about your own stories as well. 
And if you have stories you want

1281
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:54,960
to share, please feel free to 
interact with us. 

1282
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:57,800
You can send us emails or you 
can share them publicly. 

1283
01:03:57,800 --> 01:03:59,880
We'd we'd love to hear them. 
David, did you have one last 

1284
01:03:59,880 --> 01:04:02,200
thing you wanted to say? 
Yeah, I mean, I can go something

1285
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:05,880
about the Warriors of being a 
Dallas Cowboys fan too, if you 

1286
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:14,240
would like. 
Yes, especially in October. 

1287
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:17,160
Oh, it's rough. 
In November. 

1288
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:22,120
We should do a study, a survey, 
survey based study all. 

1289
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:26,000
Of these incidents. 
Of chronic pain the risk the the

1290
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:29,360
incidence of chronic pain 
syndromes exactly during 

1291
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:31,000
surgery. 
I don't want to cut you off, but

1292
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:32,880
there was a moment there I was 
like, does that count for 

1293
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:37,080
Cowboys fans like. 
That's good. 

1294
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:40,400
I saw that look in your eyes. 
Here comes the sports thing. 

1295
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:44,960
Here comes the sports thing. 
All right, thank you all and 

1296
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:47,560
feel free to let us know if you 
have any other things you want 

1297
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:49,720
us to discuss. 
You can reach out to us at 

1298
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:52,880
doctorsrunning@gmail.com or 
comment below and we'll talk 

1299
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:53,120
soon.