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Hi everyone, and welcome to the 
Doctors of Running podcast, 

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where we, a group of doctors of 
physical therapy, discuss the 

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art and the science to what we 
are putting on our feet. 

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Today we have myself at the 
round table and we are with 

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Andrea. 
It's going to be a great dynamic

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duo episode. 
I can feel it. 

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It's always fun on me. 
Yeah. 

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It's been a while since we 
recorded an episode together. 

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I'm excited. 
I know. 

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Yeah. 
I always look forward to them. 

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I feel like we record well 
together. 

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It's always a good time. 
Yeah. 

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We're like the elder and younger
DOR members teaming up to 

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provide a great episode. 
This is the way. 

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Yeah. 
But first, before we get going, 

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I want to thank our providing 
partners, Rabbit. 

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If you want to use a code to get
10% off of your order in the 

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month of September, you can use 
DORSEPT10. 

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That is D-O-R-S-E-P-T-10. 
And they've been great at 

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providing us with some apparel 
over the years, and they have 

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just great performance type of 
apparel. 

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Great for running. 
So we'll get into the 

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in-for-testing segment here. 
Andrea, what do you got on your 

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feet? 
All right. 

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Well, we just published the 
Altra Torin 9 review. 

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I've got to say, this is one of 
the best midsoles that Altra has

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come out with in a while. 
It's an updated midsole P35X, 

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which is a dual-density EVA, I 
believe. 

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So I was really excited to test 
it. 

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I liked how the specs had moved 
in a direction that tend to work

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for me. 
The Torin had jumped up to a 30 

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millimeter stack height in I 
think the past two versions 

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whereas before it was 28. 
For those who don't know, Altra 

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Torin is a zero drop shoe so 28 
the whole length of the shoe. 

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I had kind of felt like the 
Torin had just gotten tall and 

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stiff and heavy and I didn't 
really like it. 

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So when this shoe showed up, I 
was super excited because it's 

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lighter. 
Midsole definitely feels better.

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So I took it out for some test 
runs and I can confirm the 

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midsole is awesome, but the fit 
is definitely not classic Altra.

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It is pretty low volume and 
there's a pretty significant 

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lateral forefoot sidewall that 
just killed my fifth MTP. 

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And that's something I've never 
had in an Altra shoe. 

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So I'm really bummed that I 
won't get to keep running in the

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shoe because if my foot was 
comfortable in it, I think this 

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would have been one of my 
favorite daily trainers of the 

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year. 
And just because the midsole 

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feels so nice, they built a 
little more flexibility into the

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forefoot than previous versions.
Like, it checks all the boxes 

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for me, except for the fit. 
And Altra used to be the shoe 

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that every shoe I knew would 
just comfortably fit me. 

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So I wish it fit better for me. 
It didn't. 

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But if you're someone who Altras
have always been too wide in the

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forefoot for you, the shoe might
actually work really well for 

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you. 
So if you want to learn more, 

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check out the review on the 
site. 

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But I'm definitely done with 
miles in the shoe because the 

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forefoot fit just killed me. 
But I've got a couple new 

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exciting shoes for testing that 
I haven't gotten miles on. 

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The first one is the Saucony 
Endorphin Speed 6, which I know 

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you've got a significant number 
of miles on. 

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Wow, look at your colorway. 
Nice. 

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Yeah, well, I was going to say 
the same to yours. 

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Actually, so this just came in. 
So I'm actually the one, I got 

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it last, I think. 
So I haven't run in it. 

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Yeah, but Klein is running it 
and Nate's running it. 

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So I'll probably run in it 
tomorrow. 

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But I like that colorway, that 
white on gum kind of. 

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I love this colorway. 
I feel like Saucony does this in

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a lot of their models. 
And it's just so classic 

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looking. 
But your colorway is nice and 

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bright. 
This one's pretty fun. 

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Yeah. 
High visibility on the roads. 

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So I'm just walking around in 
the shoe. 

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Toe box is a little tight. 
I'm a little worried about pain 

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at my first and fifth MTPs. 
which sometimes that does happen

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to me in the Endorphin line. 
They did send me a half size up,

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but still it feels pretty snug, 
both medially and laterally. 

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But the foam feels like 
something that I will like, 

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meaning it's pretty firm, it's 
not super squishy, but it feels 

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pretty bouncy even just walking 
around. 

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I know Matt said that he feels 
like this version is the most 

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race-oriented and the least 
comfortable for easy runs, which

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is certainly a change for the 
speed line. 

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So I'm excited to try it. 
Maybe the forefoot will stretch 

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out a little bit. 
But that remains to be seen. 

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I'm excited to hear what you 
think about it, too. 

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Yeah. 
Correct me if I'm wrong. 

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Is it? 
It's PWRRUN PBX. 

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I think I've got a bright yellow
slab with silver on there. 

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I might have to confirm that. 
Yes, that's what it says on the 

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heel here. 
PWRRUN PBX. 

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Oh, that is so much more legible
on yours. 

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If I go like, it's like just 
silver on, like, I can't read 

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it. 
So, because I was like, I 

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believe it's a new compound, but
I was not 100% sure on that. 

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It feels good. 
You know, I tend to like the 

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foams being a touch firmer, but 
still having like an element of 

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softness. 
And that checks the box on this.

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And it feels like it would be 
bouncy. 

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And it also feels like the 
heel's a little bit better 

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structured. 
I didn't run in the Endorphin 

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Speed 5. 
The four was great. 

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I love that one, but I just 
didn't get the five. 

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So I'm curious to see how this 
compares to the four. 

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I just, I don't have comparisons
to the five, but I agree on the 

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fit. 
Thankfully, I usually don't have

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issues with forefoot width. 
And so for me, it felt fine, but

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it did feel a little bit more 
snug than previous shoes where 

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it was just like volumes a 
little lower. 

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It hugs a little bit closer to 
the foot. 

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Thankfully, I don't think it'd 
be problematic for me just 

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walking around in it. 
Otherwise, the fit feels really 

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nice. 
It's like a soft upper. 

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Yeah, it'll be exciting for us 
to get miles on it. 

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Yeah. 
What else? 

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One more shoe. 
I was just going to say, I'm 

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trying to remember, did any of 
us get the Endorphin Speed 5 for

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testing? 
I don't think so. 

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I think there were some changes 
that happened and seating got a 

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little weird for a while. 
Yeah. 

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Yeah, because we got the Pro 5 
and I got a pair that was 

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apparently defective. 
And then I never got a 

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replacement pair. 
So I never got to test that 

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shoe. 
Oh, yeah, you had a weird angle 

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on the fit of the upper, right? 
Like it just didn't. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah, like the seam was crooked 

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here. 
Like it wasn't straight up and 

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down in relation to the heel. 
And it caused really bad heel 

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rubbing for me. 
And I reached out to Saucony and

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they were like, no, it shouldn't
look like that. 

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You probably just got a 
problematic pair. 

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So they said they were going to 
send me another one, but they 

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didn't. 
And I was kind of bummed because

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the midsole of the Pro 5 felt 
good. 

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And the fit otherwise felt good 
too. 

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But sometimes... 
I agree. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah, the Endorphin Pro 5 for me

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was like almost a big hit. 
And then it ended up being a 

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miss. 
And for me, it was actually the 

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Achilles rubbing as well. 
Oh, yeah. 

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Yeah. 
And mine, I don't think I had a 

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defective pair. 
I just don't think it fit my 

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foot well on the backside there.
And I just got some friction on 

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the backside of that Achilles. 
But otherwise, like the platform

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felt really good. 
They put a lot of outsole on it 

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too. 
Like they wanted that to be like

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almost like a hybrid workhorse 
super shoe type of presentation.

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And I felt like they hit it 
really well across most of the 

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board. 
It just, it was the heel for me.

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Yeah. 
Otherwise it'd be a just 

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phenomenal long run marathon 
type shoe. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah. 

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I used the Pro 3 for one 
marathon and a bunch of like 

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longer races back in the day. 
So it's definitely a shoe that's

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worked for me in the past, but, 
you know, the iterations now are

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so different from the earlier 
versions in terms of fit and 

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midsole. 
All right. 

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Last shoe. 
Also, I don't have any miles on 

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it, but I think you do. 
The On Cloudsurfer 3. 

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Oh, no. 
So I feel like there's so many 

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things going on in the chat. 
So I don't have the Cloudsurfer 

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3. 
Oh, you don't. 

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No, but Klein is running it. 
Yeah. 

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All right. 
I think BJ might even have it. 

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I'm not sure. 
That's right. 

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Yeah. 
Typically, the Cloudsurfer has 

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been too soft for me. 
So, this one feels soft, but not

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as soft as previous versions, so
I might actually like this one. 

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For me, On shoes always fit so 
comfortably because they have 

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this nice, wider, more 
squared-off toe box. 

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I mean, you know, if the toe box
fits me, I'm usually pretty 

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happy with the fit of a shoe. 
It doesn't take a lot to make me

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happy. feel like. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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Well, I'm, I feel like I'm like 
princess and the pea with shoes.

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Like, I just can't tolerate 
being uncomfortable when I'm 

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running. 
Like, I want to just enjoy my 

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runs, not be thinking about 
like, oh, my first MTP hurts 

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because the shoe is squeezing 
it. 

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So that's just me. 
But this shoe feels really nice.

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I don't know specs. 
It definitely looks a little 

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taller than the previous 
version, and that wouldn't be 

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too surprising just with the way
On's gone with their other 

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shoes. 
But excited to get some miles on

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it and report back. 
So what have you got? 

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Yeah, so I'll start with the 
first one that I have run in. 

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So by the time this airs, review
might be out, question mark. 

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I'll probably write it right 
after we're done recording. 

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I haven't written it yet. 
But this is the Teva Trail Peak,

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and I really liked it. 
I was pleasantly surprised. 

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I mean, on paper, I was talking 
about this on previous podcasts 

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that, like, it checks a lot of 
boxes in terms of specifications

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and, and being competitive with 
the market. 

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It's, I believe it's 160 retail.
I might have to check that real 

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quick, but should be 160 retail,
ATPU midsole, right around 30 

196
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millimeters of stack. 
Lugs aren't super aggressive. 

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This is definitely something you
can run all terrain on, and I 

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feel like it ran pretty well 
across the large majority of 

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trails that I was running. 
Surprisingly, I felt like 

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traction on the rocks was 
actually pretty good. 

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I was actually able to run 
through technical footing, like,

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pretty well. 
The one thing where it got me, 

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though, was because these aren't
super deep, it, I feel like the 

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rubber itself could just be a 
touch stickier. 

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Like, for most rocks it was 
fine, but like when I was power 

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hiking and I was going up like 
steeper grades, I was slipping a

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little bit. 
So I felt like it didn't have 

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like the deeper give that some 
other trails shoes have. 

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But from a nimbleness 
standpoint, it's also like low 

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eight ounces in men's size nine.
So it's like, it's lightweight, 

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it's got a good foam, it feels 
surprisingly nimble, like the 

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heels rounded well, but then the
forefoot's just really gradual. 

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It's an early stage rocker, but 
it's not super aggressive. 

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So you can definitely feel your 
forefoot kind of digging in and 

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doing what you want with it. 
And the upper is actually really

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good. 
The lockdown is, I mean, it's 

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hard to beat it, honestly, but 
the volume's a little bit low. 

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That's the only thing. 
So if you have, if you're 

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sensitive to volume, that's the 
one thing here. 

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But you've got a good amount of 
forefoot width. 

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You can see it does, it tapers 
pretty slowly, so there's a lot 

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of space up front in terms of 
width. 

223
00:11:28,023 --> 00:11:31,436
It's just a little bit more snug
all across on the top of the 

224
00:11:31,436 --> 00:11:33,784
foot. 
Speed laces did great. 

225
00:11:33,784 --> 00:11:37,078
I had no issues with slippage or
anything there. 

226
00:11:37,078 --> 00:11:40,414
And then the heel's just, like, 
I don't know, it's got a counter

227
00:11:40,414 --> 00:11:43,387
in there, decently stiff, but 
it's padded on the top here, and

228
00:11:43,387 --> 00:11:46,067
there was enough space. 
I didn't have any rubbing or 

229
00:11:46,067 --> 00:11:47,940
anything. 
So yeah, I was actually really 

230
00:11:48,159 --> 00:11:51,757
impressed, and it retails right 
around 160, so that's very, very

231
00:11:51,757 --> 00:11:55,243
competitive with a lot of the 
other trail shoes on the market.

232
00:11:55,243 --> 00:11:57,259
So definitely. 
Yeah, that looks like a great 

233
00:11:57,259 --> 00:11:59,973
trail shoe, and with the 
direction that trail shoes are 

234
00:11:59,973 --> 00:12:02,833
heading, everything being higher
stack, it's nice having that as 

235
00:12:02,833 --> 00:12:04,865
a lower stack option. 
For sure. 

236
00:12:04,865 --> 00:12:09,023
Yeah, I'm just gonna pull it up 
real quick on this right here to

237
00:12:09,023 --> 00:12:11,337
have a Trail Peak. 
Yeah, 160. 

238
00:12:11,337 --> 00:12:16,173
I just wanted to confirm that. 
Yeah, so there's the Teva Trail 

239
00:12:16,173 --> 00:12:18,137
Peak. 
I'm gonna be doing a lot of 

240
00:12:18,137 --> 00:12:19,868
running on dirt. 
It seems like I've been getting 

241
00:12:19,868 --> 00:12:22,825
a lot of the trail models or 
hybrid models coming in. 

242
00:12:22,825 --> 00:12:26,136
So this next one, I've been 
talking about for a while. 

243
00:12:26,136 --> 00:12:29,191
I've been focusing on a lot of 
the other shoes just because 

244
00:12:29,191 --> 00:12:31,820
we've, I already reviewed this, 
like, earlier in the year, but 

245
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,576
with a different version of it. 
So it's the Altra Experience 

246
00:12:35,576 --> 00:12:40,209
Wild 3, not the 3 Plus. 
We got the 3 Plus earlier in the

247
00:12:40,209 --> 00:12:42,568
year. 
The difference being that this 

248
00:12:42,568 --> 00:12:46,695
is MaxTrac proprietary outsole 
compared to the Vibram outsole 

249
00:12:46,695 --> 00:12:51,333
that would be on the 3 Plus. 
So Experience is, you know, 

250
00:12:51,333 --> 00:12:54,215
pretty much the same, just 
all-terrain type training shoe, 

251
00:12:54,215 --> 00:12:57,020
and it does pretty well for what
it does. 

252
00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:59,938
I wouldn't say that there's 
anything to rave about per se. 

253
00:12:59,938 --> 00:13:01,320
It's just kind of a nice 
balance. 

254
00:13:01,460 --> 00:13:03,945
I believe it's P35 on the 
midsole. 

255
00:13:03,945 --> 00:13:06,075
Yeah, P35. 
Just nice balanced rocker. 

256
00:13:06,075 --> 00:13:11,735
Does a little bit of everything.
The other one is the Salomon 

257
00:13:11,735 --> 00:13:16,195
Aero Blaze 4 GRVL. 
I'm curious to see how this 

258
00:13:16,195 --> 00:13:18,825
feels, mainly because 
anecdotally, I have struggled 

259
00:13:18,825 --> 00:13:22,518
with the road version, but done 
okay with the gravel version on 

260
00:13:22,518 --> 00:13:26,239
the last versions of both the 
Aero Blaze and Aero Glide. 

261
00:13:26,820 --> 00:13:30,600
So we'll see, you know, it's a 
little bit more of a robust 

262
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,561
upper on this one. 
And then it's got the gravel 

263
00:13:33,561 --> 00:13:36,320
Contragrip outsole there. 
I've always struggled with that 

264
00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,000
really narrow midfoot on the 
road models. 

265
00:13:38,059 --> 00:13:40,944
And I just felt like my 
intrinsics, like the muscles 

266
00:13:40,944 --> 00:13:43,998
inside of my foot are just 
working a little harder than 

267
00:13:43,998 --> 00:13:46,059
they probably should through the
midfoot and the arch. 

268
00:13:47,059 --> 00:13:50,356
And just having that thicker 
outsole seemed to help a lot on 

269
00:13:50,356 --> 00:13:54,284
the third version of the shoe, 
but I got to get out there for 

270
00:13:54,284 --> 00:13:56,260
the fourth version of the shoe. 
So that one's there. 

271
00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,110
And then that's also like, that 
one feels heavier than the 

272
00:13:59,110 --> 00:14:01,387
previous version because the 
previous version was under nine 

273
00:14:01,387 --> 00:14:03,988
ounces. 
I remember I included it in like

274
00:14:03,988 --> 00:14:06,460
my favorite lightweight trainers
of last year's video. 

275
00:14:06,700 --> 00:14:07,922
This one does feel a little 
heavier. 

276
00:14:07,922 --> 00:14:11,305
I got to get specs on it. 
I'm not sure what the exact 

277
00:14:11,305 --> 00:14:13,516
specs are, but that one feels 
like it's probably closer to 

278
00:14:13,516 --> 00:14:18,017
like 9.5 or so. 
That'd be wild if I pulled up 

279
00:14:18,017 --> 00:14:20,806
the specs and it was, but. 
That would be very impressive. 

280
00:14:20,806 --> 00:14:23,630
Yeah. 
It's like when you're doing the 

281
00:14:23,630 --> 00:14:26,464
goniometer, like. 
That looks like it's about one. 

282
00:14:26,464 --> 00:14:31,130
I'll give you 117. 
Hey, my eyes work. 

283
00:14:31,130 --> 00:14:34,049
Look at that. 
Please verify your measurements.

284
00:14:34,049 --> 00:14:37,385
Anyways. 
PT students, you do have to use 

285
00:14:37,385 --> 00:14:41,865
a goniometer. 
For the rest of us, maybe not. 

286
00:14:41,865 --> 00:14:45,799
And then the other one's the 
Mizuno Sky Prime. 

287
00:14:46,219 --> 00:14:49,523
So, high stack, rocker shoe, 
soft midsole. 

288
00:14:49,523 --> 00:14:53,768
Yeah, premium trainer. 
That's what I got to report 

289
00:14:53,768 --> 00:14:57,140
there. 
Toe box is a little bit narrow, 

290
00:14:57,140 --> 00:15:01,098
but the upper feels like it'll 
stretch a little bit, so we'll 

291
00:15:01,098 --> 00:15:02,930
see. 
I haven't run in this one yet 

292
00:15:02,930 --> 00:15:04,762
either. 
I was finishing up all the other

293
00:15:04,762 --> 00:15:08,174
previous reviews, but that's 
what I got on my feet. 

294
00:15:08,174 --> 00:15:11,801
Yeah, I, I feel like at least 
for me, the beginning of the 

295
00:15:11,801 --> 00:15:15,511
year I wasn't really excited 
about a lot of the shoes we're 

296
00:15:15,511 --> 00:15:19,175
testing, but now, like, the 
spring and on, we've gotten a 

297
00:15:19,175 --> 00:15:22,100
lot of, like, cool, innovative, 
different shoes to test. 

298
00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:26,420
So it's been exciting seeing 
what's been showing up and just 

299
00:15:26,420 --> 00:15:29,780
getting out there and getting 
miles on them. 

300
00:15:29,780 --> 00:15:30,620
Totally. 
Yeah. 

301
00:15:30,620 --> 00:15:34,017
All right. 
So today we've got this or that 

302
00:15:34,017 --> 00:15:35,880
episode, which these are always 
fun. 

303
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:40,103
Like, it's always fun just 
debating sometimes very random 

304
00:15:40,103 --> 00:15:42,780
or very specific questions about
shoes. 

305
00:15:43,479 --> 00:15:46,693
And we definitely have both of 
those here from BJ and our 

306
00:15:46,693 --> 00:15:49,120
listeners. 
Thank you, listeners, who 

307
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,599
provided some ideas for this 
episode today. 

308
00:15:52,460 --> 00:15:57,515
So the first topic is this or 
that, ASICS Sonicblast 2 or New 

309
00:15:57,515 --> 00:16:00,619
Balance SC Rebel. 
What do you think, David? 

310
00:16:01,380 --> 00:16:04,260
Okay, so this one's actually 
pretty easy for me. 

311
00:16:04,260 --> 00:16:08,836
Not a knock on the Sonicblast 2.
The SC Rebel has just been 

312
00:16:08,836 --> 00:16:12,581
agreeing with me phenomenally. 
It might be a shoe of the year 

313
00:16:12,581 --> 00:16:15,742
nominee here as we get closer to
the end of the year. 

314
00:16:15,742 --> 00:16:19,538
I'll just hold them both up. 
So main differences with the SC 

315
00:16:19,538 --> 00:16:22,536
Rebel, you're looking at a 
little bit more of a familiar 

316
00:16:22,536 --> 00:16:25,603
stack height comparable with a 
lot of the super shoes. 34 in 

317
00:16:25,603 --> 00:16:28,469
the heel. 
If I remember correctly, I think

318
00:16:28,469 --> 00:16:31,583
it's 36 in the forefoot for a 
4mm drop. 

319
00:16:31,583 --> 00:16:33,659
But the FuelCell midsole feels 
good. 

320
00:16:33,900 --> 00:16:36,617
It's kind of like what we were 
just talking about, like 

321
00:16:36,617 --> 00:16:40,192
slightly a little bit firmer, 
but has a touch, like it has an 

322
00:16:40,192 --> 00:16:42,865
element of softness, and then 
there's a bounce that comes off 

323
00:16:42,865 --> 00:16:44,080
it. 
It is carbon plated. 

324
00:16:45,020 --> 00:16:47,780
And I like that the geometry is 
just very balanced. 

325
00:16:48,239 --> 00:16:50,972
Like, this shoe feels 
surprisingly nimble because of 

326
00:16:50,972 --> 00:16:54,731
the way the forefoot's oriented 
while still having a super shoe 

327
00:16:54,731 --> 00:16:57,548
type of feel. 
And then it actually feels okay 

328
00:16:57,548 --> 00:17:01,359
at easy paces too, and I think 
some of that is that less 

329
00:17:01,359 --> 00:17:03,359
aggressive geometry. 
But you can get aggressive with 

330
00:17:03,359 --> 00:17:07,496
it if you want, and the reason 
why is the way that plate is 

331
00:17:07,496 --> 00:17:09,406
spooned. 
It's like so aggressive on the 

332
00:17:09,406 --> 00:17:13,749
forefoot, where it's like, just 
like, you can see the plate 

333
00:17:13,749 --> 00:17:16,022
through the outsole, which is 
wild. 

334
00:17:16,022 --> 00:17:17,159
It is. 
Yeah. 

335
00:17:18,579 --> 00:17:22,310
But it gives you this, like, 
kind of softer, trampoline-y 

336
00:17:22,310 --> 00:17:26,631
heel, and then you get this 
really snappy and lively 

337
00:17:26,631 --> 00:17:30,871
forefoot, and they're just two, 
like, wild extremes that have 

338
00:17:30,871 --> 00:17:34,261
somehow blended together into an
experience that is fluid, and 

339
00:17:34,261 --> 00:17:37,177
they did a great job. 
The only thing with this one is 

340
00:17:37,177 --> 00:17:40,068
the volume's a little bit lower.
Width is not quite as wide in 

341
00:17:40,068 --> 00:17:42,584
the forefoot as some of the 
other New Balance shoes that 

342
00:17:42,584 --> 00:17:45,264
have been out there. 
Have you had any issues with 

343
00:17:45,264 --> 00:17:45,800
this? 
Yes. 

344
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:50,135
So I don't really know how to 
answer this question, because I 

345
00:17:50,135 --> 00:17:54,566
loved everything about how this 
shoe felt, except it fits short.

346
00:17:54,566 --> 00:17:56,337
Yeah. 
Like, I got bruised big toenails

347
00:17:56,337 --> 00:18:00,647
from my first run in it, and we 
asked New Balance to send me a 

348
00:18:00,647 --> 00:18:04,991
half size up and they didn't. 
Like, it fits shorter than the 

349
00:18:04,991 --> 00:18:08,979
SC Elite 6 does. 
I found that fit to be perfectly

350
00:18:08,979 --> 00:18:11,824
comfortable. 
But just like what you said, I 

351
00:18:11,824 --> 00:18:14,898
love everything about this shoe.
It's lower stack. 

352
00:18:14,898 --> 00:18:18,020
The midsole has a firmer feel, 
but it's super bouncy. 

353
00:18:18,709 --> 00:18:21,381
The rocker isn't insanely 
aggressive, like it actually 

354
00:18:21,381 --> 00:18:24,719
gives me enough time to land and
then roll off. 

355
00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:29,783
I also found it comfortable for 
easy paces, but the fit just 

356
00:18:29,783 --> 00:18:31,991
killed me. 
And it really was. 

357
00:18:31,991 --> 00:18:37,136
It's just a little bit short. 
And I am someone who is often on

358
00:18:37,136 --> 00:18:42,212
the edge of a 9.5 or a 10. 
I have to go up to a 10 in all 

359
00:18:42,212 --> 00:18:47,727
of the Endorphin shoes. 
I've had to go up to a 10 in 

360
00:18:47,727 --> 00:18:50,199
some New Balance, like the 
original SC Pacer. 

361
00:18:51,420 --> 00:18:54,790
I can't remember if I've had to 
go up to a 10 in any of the SC 

362
00:18:54,790 --> 00:18:55,780
Elite. 
I don't think so. 

363
00:18:56,739 --> 00:18:59,620
And the regular Rebel has always
fit me fine. 

364
00:18:59,620 --> 00:19:01,540
But this shoe definitely fits 
short. 

365
00:19:01,540 --> 00:19:03,780
It's not just that it's low 
volume. 

366
00:19:04,099 --> 00:19:07,400
It's that my big toe is right at
the front of the shoe. 

367
00:19:07,739 --> 00:19:11,435
So I think if I had gotten a 
half size up, it probably also 

368
00:19:11,435 --> 00:19:14,070
would be one of my top shoes of 
the year. 

369
00:19:14,070 --> 00:19:18,208
But I didn't. 
So I've got to say the Novablast

370
00:19:18,208 --> 00:19:20,896
is a shoe that I'll continue. 
Sonic. 

371
00:19:20,896 --> 00:19:22,816
The Novablast. 
I got you. 

372
00:19:22,816 --> 00:19:27,157
Yep. 
ASICS Sonicblast 2 is a shoe 

373
00:19:27,157 --> 00:19:29,880
I'll actually keep running in 
because it fits comfortably. 

374
00:19:31,859 --> 00:19:35,967
I love how this shoe runs, but 
compared to the Rebel, it's a 

375
00:19:35,967 --> 00:19:37,691
little softer. 
It's definitely heavier. 

376
00:19:37,691 --> 00:19:41,061
It's higher stack. 
And I feel like it's best around

377
00:19:41,061 --> 00:19:44,094
marathon pace. 
Like when I take it any faster, 

378
00:19:44,094 --> 00:19:47,456
it just feels too heavy and like
too much shoe. 

379
00:19:47,456 --> 00:19:52,496
And I didn't get that sense in 
the run that I did in the Rebel.

380
00:19:52,496 --> 00:19:56,528
Like I felt like I probably 
would have used it for threshold

381
00:19:56,528 --> 00:19:58,880
workouts, probably even workouts
faster than that. 

382
00:19:59,839 --> 00:20:02,880
I definitely couldn't do that in
the Sonicblast 2. 

383
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,340
But because it fits better and I
could actually continue to run 

384
00:20:06,340 --> 00:20:09,280
in it, I've got to choose it for
this, this or that. 

385
00:20:09,599 --> 00:20:13,837
But, you know, maybe I'll 
actually buy a size 10 in the SC

386
00:20:13,837 --> 00:20:16,119
Rebel because it's a really nice
shoe. 

387
00:20:16,180 --> 00:20:19,012
I think I would get a lot of use
out of it. 

388
00:20:19,012 --> 00:20:22,232
Yeah, and I feel like a large 
part of my answer, too, does 

389
00:20:22,232 --> 00:20:25,658
come from that versatility. 
Like, I feel like, and it's like

390
00:20:25,658 --> 00:20:28,490
7.7 ounces. 
Like that's as light as what 

391
00:20:28,490 --> 00:20:31,047
super shoes were just a year or 
two ago. 

392
00:20:31,047 --> 00:20:33,035
Right. 
Like, so it's almost like a 

393
00:20:33,035 --> 00:20:34,875
trainer. 
That's also a super shoe. 

394
00:20:34,875 --> 00:20:37,343
So that's like the kind of the 
appeal there. 

395
00:20:37,343 --> 00:20:39,910
The Sonicblast 2, though, I 
really like it as well. 

396
00:20:39,910 --> 00:20:42,823
And I agree with everything you 
were saying where this is one of

397
00:20:42,823 --> 00:20:46,407
those shoes where like, I feel 
like I need to inject just a 

398
00:20:46,407 --> 00:20:48,727
little bit of pace into it. 
Not a whole lot. 

399
00:20:48,727 --> 00:20:51,460
Like you said, it bottoms out a 
little bit where it's just a lot

400
00:20:51,460 --> 00:20:54,729
of shoe to really try and turn 
over and go fast, fast, but at 

401
00:20:54,729 --> 00:20:58,479
like longer controlled uptempo 
efforts, be it whether it's a 

402
00:20:58,479 --> 00:21:01,479
long run and or tempo marathon 
type effort. 

403
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,760
My gosh, this thing is nice, you
know? 

404
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,725
And it just like the way the 
geometry is oriented, it's like 

405
00:21:08,725 --> 00:21:11,040
it's rounded just enough to kind
of get you onto that plate. 

406
00:21:11,339 --> 00:21:13,819
Kind of like what we talked 
about in the Rebel too. 

407
00:21:13,819 --> 00:21:16,492
It's not like a super aggressive
forefoot rocker and it just lets

408
00:21:16,492 --> 00:21:18,567
you use that trampoline pod a 
little bit that they put in 

409
00:21:18,567 --> 00:21:20,211
there. 
And it's one of the few shoes 

410
00:21:20,211 --> 00:21:22,814
where I feel like I can notice 
it where you get that, like, 

411
00:21:22,814 --> 00:21:25,221
Turbo², where it just bounces 
into that forefoot, and you get 

412
00:21:25,221 --> 00:21:29,169
this like kind of catapult-y 
sensation coming off of it, and 

413
00:21:29,169 --> 00:21:33,963
it just really, like, once it 
gets up into its rhythm and has 

414
00:21:33,963 --> 00:21:37,379
momentum, it doesn't want to 
stop, and you can just keep 

415
00:21:37,379 --> 00:21:39,493
running. 
And so that's a, that's what 

416
00:21:39,493 --> 00:21:42,535
makes the Sonicblast 2 very fun.
And we didn't talk about price 

417
00:21:42,535 --> 00:21:44,337
points, but they're both very 
similar. 

418
00:21:44,337 --> 00:21:48,605
It's like 190 and 200, right? 
So it's almost negligible at 

419
00:21:48,605 --> 00:21:51,651
that point. 
But yeah, I'm gonna have SC 

420
00:21:51,651 --> 00:21:54,762
Rebel, but I agree. 
The fit is definitely a little 

421
00:21:54,762 --> 00:21:56,628
bit, it's a little short. 
Yeah. 

422
00:21:56,628 --> 00:22:00,128
Thankfully for me, I tend to be 
more like nine and a half, nine,

423
00:22:00,128 --> 00:22:03,715
but I'd more nine and a half, 
you know, but this fits just a 

424
00:22:03,715 --> 00:22:07,701
little bit, a little bit small, 
but I feel like it's still true 

425
00:22:07,701 --> 00:22:11,045
to size for me, but it's on that
edge. 

426
00:22:11,045 --> 00:22:15,737
It's surprising that they made 
the fit of the SC Rebel shorter 

427
00:22:15,737 --> 00:22:19,412
than the SC Elite 6. 
You know, you normally expect a 

428
00:22:19,412 --> 00:22:23,180
true racing shoe to fit more 
snug, but they did it the 

429
00:22:23,229 --> 00:22:25,049
opposite way, which, you know, 
is their prerogative. 

430
00:22:25,049 --> 00:22:28,218
I will just say one more thing 
about the Sonic Blast 2. 

431
00:22:28,218 --> 00:22:31,947
I definitely can feel the 
forefoot pod too, and I feel 

432
00:22:31,947 --> 00:22:35,200
like it really rewards you for 
landing on it. 

433
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,450
So I feel like it really helps 
you, like, get into a good 

434
00:22:39,450 --> 00:22:43,098
rhythm, because when you hit 
that pod securely, you get the 

435
00:22:43,098 --> 00:22:46,761
most bounce from it. 
And I think that's also why it 

436
00:22:46,761 --> 00:22:50,452
feels best around marathon pace,
because you can just settle into

437
00:22:50,452 --> 00:22:53,993
that rhythm, whereas, you know, 
at faster paces, you maybe don't

438
00:22:53,993 --> 00:22:56,429
do that as well. 
Yeah, I agree with that 

439
00:22:56,429 --> 00:23:00,129
completely. 
All right. 

440
00:23:00,129 --> 00:23:10,875
So our next topic is non-plated 
or plated 2026 performance 

441
00:23:10,875 --> 00:23:14,097
trainers. 
Oh, man. 

442
00:23:14,097 --> 00:23:17,319
That's painful. 
Okay. 

443
00:23:18,420 --> 00:23:24,375
I will take a side, but I will 
defend both. 

444
00:23:24,375 --> 00:23:29,135
I think the SC Rebel 
single-handedly changed that 

445
00:23:29,135 --> 00:23:35,034
answer for me. 
I think that alone made that 

446
00:23:35,034 --> 00:23:39,586
experience fun, dynamic, 
versatile, and it gave that 

447
00:23:39,586 --> 00:23:44,190
category so much range. 
And we'll see with the Endorphin

448
00:23:44,190 --> 00:23:46,770
Speed 6, because I would toss 
that in there too. 

449
00:23:46,770 --> 00:23:49,800
This feels good so far. 
I haven't run it yet, but 

450
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,099
standing and walking, it fits me
well and the foam feels good. 

451
00:23:53,319 --> 00:23:57,661
So maybe I'll be able to double 
down on this in a week. 

452
00:23:57,661 --> 00:23:59,660
But the Sonicblast is also 
great. 

453
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,916
But I feel like we've also had 
some bangers in the just 

454
00:24:04,916 --> 00:24:08,840
non-plated category this year. 
I'm thinking of shoes like the 

455
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,540
Saucony Endorphin Azura, which 
for me has worked incredibly 

456
00:24:11,540 --> 00:24:15,223
well. 
I think of shoes like the Puma 

457
00:24:15,223 --> 00:24:17,946
Deviate Pure Nitro. 
Also great debut shoe. 

458
00:24:17,946 --> 00:24:20,280
Just simple, nimble, fun, good 
foam. 

459
00:24:22,239 --> 00:24:26,046
A little bit less hype for me, 
but still solid options. 

460
00:24:26,046 --> 00:24:29,160
The Hoka Mach 7, and the Brooks 
Ghost Amp. 

461
00:24:29,819 --> 00:24:33,642
Like, I feel like that category 
is just cooking this year. 

462
00:24:33,642 --> 00:24:38,500
But at the same time, I feel 
like I like the SC Rebel enough 

463
00:24:38,859 --> 00:24:41,830
to where it's like, I'll just 
pay the 40 bucks more. 

464
00:24:41,830 --> 00:24:44,530
And who knows? 
I might not even get a super 

465
00:24:44,530 --> 00:24:46,803
shoe. 
I might just race in the SC 

466
00:24:46,803 --> 00:24:48,680
Rebel if I'm buying my own 
shoes. 

467
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:54,979
So, yeah, I feel like that shoe 
just changed that conversation. 

468
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,819
Because, like, otherwise, the 
Endorphin Azura and Puma Deviate

469
00:24:57,819 --> 00:25:00,639
Pure Nitro, for me, are both 
shoes that could potentially 

470
00:25:00,639 --> 00:25:03,459
make conversation at the end of 
the year as well. 

471
00:25:04,439 --> 00:25:07,520
But I just, the SC Rebel has 
been agreeing with me so well. 

472
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,359
And it's just really hard for me
to deviate from that path. 

473
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,852
Oh, man, no pun intended there. 
Oh, man. 

474
00:25:13,852 --> 00:25:17,180
Oh, Matt would be so proud of 
you. 

475
00:25:17,180 --> 00:25:19,260
Yeah, that was totally 
accidental. 

476
00:25:19,420 --> 00:25:21,485
I wish I could take credit for 
that. 

477
00:25:21,485 --> 00:25:24,581
But, yeah, what about you? 
I'm going to go with the plated 

478
00:25:24,581 --> 00:25:27,783
trainers. 
I'm going to go with the 

479
00:25:27,783 --> 00:25:30,240
non-plated trainers, not because
there's really been like one 

480
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,789
that's really hit it out of the 
park for me, but because I 

481
00:25:33,789 --> 00:25:37,338
think, you know, we talk a lot 
about how the presence of a 

482
00:25:37,338 --> 00:25:40,887
plate doesn't mean much in terms
of how a shoe is going to 

483
00:25:40,887 --> 00:25:41,945
perform. 
Right. 

484
00:25:41,945 --> 00:25:46,500
Like the SC trainer one had a 
plate and it was like 11 ounces 

485
00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:50,400
and was certainly not anything 
that you would like run fast in.

486
00:25:50,540 --> 00:25:52,802
Right. 
But then there's all of these 

487
00:25:52,802 --> 00:25:56,355
shoes that don't have plates 
that are super fast and work 

488
00:25:56,355 --> 00:25:58,939
really well as performance 
trainers or even racers. 

489
00:25:59,109 --> 00:26:03,225
So I think it's important for us
to remind our listeners whenever

490
00:26:03,225 --> 00:26:07,680
we can that the plate is not the
secret sauce in these shoes. 

491
00:26:08,459 --> 00:26:12,812
Like study after study has found
that it's the interaction of the

492
00:26:12,812 --> 00:26:17,156
midsole, the geometry of the 
shoe and then the plate if there

493
00:26:17,156 --> 00:26:20,416
is one. 
But there was a well-known study

494
00:26:20,416 --> 00:26:24,288
that we've talked about a lot 
where they took maybe the 

495
00:26:24,288 --> 00:26:28,160
original model of the Vaporfly 
and cut the plate and did 

496
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,056
running economy testing in it. 
And it wasn't any different than

497
00:26:32,056 --> 00:26:34,099
the Vaporfly without the plate 
cut. 

498
00:26:34,569 --> 00:26:38,493
So obviously it's, you know, 
running shoe stores and 

499
00:26:38,493 --> 00:26:42,414
reviewers talk about plated 
shoes because it's an easy 

500
00:26:42,414 --> 00:26:46,460
category to define. 
But the presence of a plate, 

501
00:26:46,460 --> 00:26:49,340
particularly in non-racing 
shoes, doesn't really tell you 

502
00:26:49,340 --> 00:26:53,775
that much about a shoe. 
And I do feel like there's just 

503
00:26:53,775 --> 00:26:57,479
a ton of really great shoes out 
there that don't have a plate, 

504
00:26:57,599 --> 00:27:01,505
but still perform like some of 
these plated performance 

505
00:27:01,505 --> 00:27:05,663
trainers or even racers. 
So I think the Deviate Pure 

506
00:27:05,663 --> 00:27:09,119
Nitro is a great example. 
Unfortunately, that shoe didn't 

507
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,300
fit my forefoot, so I couldn't 
run very much in it. 

508
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,916
Like, this year, there's been so
many non-plated performance 

509
00:27:16,916 --> 00:27:19,545
trainers. 
The Deviate Pure Nitro, the new 

510
00:27:19,545 --> 00:27:24,040
Kinvara, which I had such high 
hopes was going to fit my foot, 

511
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:29,378
and it did not. 
The On Cloud Monster Hyper 3, 

512
00:27:29,378 --> 00:27:32,699
which is one of my top shoes for
the year. 

513
00:27:33,140 --> 00:27:37,137
You know, this isn't, I wouldn't
race in it, but you can run 

514
00:27:37,137 --> 00:27:39,900
surprisingly fast in it, and it 
feels quite comfortable. 

515
00:27:40,319 --> 00:27:43,751
There's no plate in this shoe. 
It's not the lightest on the 

516
00:27:43,751 --> 00:27:46,319
planet, but it's also not nine 
ounces for sure. 

517
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,311
And I know Matt feels like the 
LightSpray version of this is 

518
00:27:51,311 --> 00:27:54,901
one of the best, like, stable 
potential racing shoes out 

519
00:27:54,901 --> 00:28:00,389
there. 
I think the Topo Spectre 3 is a 

520
00:28:00,389 --> 00:28:03,280
great example of a non-plated 
performance shoe. 

521
00:28:03,939 --> 00:28:08,807
Again, for me, the really sharp 
and early forefoot rocker kept 

522
00:28:08,807 --> 00:28:12,922
me from running fast in it 
because I just felt like I was 

523
00:28:12,922 --> 00:28:15,211
landing like this and then 
rolling off the front of it. 

524
00:28:15,211 --> 00:28:20,487
But for a lot of people, this is
going to be a great threshold 

525
00:28:20,487 --> 00:28:24,140
shoe, marathon shoe. 
I mean, we're not talking about 

526
00:28:24,140 --> 00:28:29,784
racing shoes right now, but the 
Spectre Elite is one of the best

527
00:28:29,784 --> 00:28:34,877
racing shoes of 2026. 
So my point is... having a plate

528
00:28:34,877 --> 00:28:38,239
doesn't tell you a lot about how
a shoe is going to perform. 

529
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,724
And I hope people will remember 
that when they are shopping for 

530
00:28:42,724 --> 00:28:46,849
shoes, your shoe doesn't have to
have a plate to be fast or to 

531
00:28:46,849 --> 00:28:51,015
help you run your best race. 
And there are a lot of shoes out

532
00:28:51,015 --> 00:28:54,453
there this year that don't have 
a plate that are fast shoes. 

533
00:28:54,453 --> 00:28:59,225
Unfortunately, a lot of them 
didn't fit me well, but they do 

534
00:28:59,225 --> 00:29:01,535
exist. 
Yeah, I agree completely with 

535
00:29:01,535 --> 00:29:04,377
that. 
I mean, that category is doing 

536
00:29:04,377 --> 00:29:06,560
so well this year with the 
non-plated shoes. 

537
00:29:06,750 --> 00:29:10,014
Oh, yeah. 
Because, again, the purpose of a

538
00:29:10,014 --> 00:29:15,311
plate in a shoe is to stiffen 
what is often a higher stack 

539
00:29:15,311 --> 00:29:19,603
height of foam, right? 
But that's not the only way that

540
00:29:19,603 --> 00:29:22,632
you can do that. 
You can achieve stiffness with 

541
00:29:22,632 --> 00:29:27,000
the outsole or just with the way
that the midsole is laid up. 

542
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:32,255
You know, we've tested so many 
shoes that have an above 40 

543
00:29:32,255 --> 00:29:36,479
millimeter stack height that are
not soft or bouncy or unstable. 

544
00:29:37,060 --> 00:29:41,288
So just the presence of a high 
stack height of foam doesn't 

545
00:29:41,288 --> 00:29:44,808
mean that you need an additional
stiffening agent to provide 

546
00:29:44,808 --> 00:29:48,020
stability. 
You can provide stability by 

547
00:29:48,020 --> 00:29:53,724
using a wider base, by using a 
good rocker design, good upper 

548
00:29:53,724 --> 00:29:57,560
lockdown. 
So a plate isn't the be all end 

549
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:03,640
all in terms of performance. 
I realize this is not a very 

550
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,352
good this or that answer, but 
more a mini lecture on the role 

551
00:30:08,352 --> 00:30:12,123
of plates in shoes. 
No, I think it's great because 

552
00:30:12,123 --> 00:30:13,859
you get both kind of side points
there. 

553
00:30:14,359 --> 00:30:16,609
And that's where I'm like, 
there's not really a wrong 

554
00:30:16,609 --> 00:30:18,407
answer there. 
I feel like both categories are 

555
00:30:18,407 --> 00:30:19,963
good this year. 
Oh, yeah. 

556
00:30:19,963 --> 00:30:22,540
And same thing. 
Like if that SC Rebel had fit 

557
00:30:22,540 --> 00:30:25,420
me, I probably would have said, 
well, yeah, it's the best shoe 

558
00:30:25,420 --> 00:30:28,601
of the year. 
So I pick the plated shoes. 

559
00:30:28,601 --> 00:30:33,359
I will say, and I always forget 
that this is a 2026 shoe. 

560
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,534
The Mizuno Hyperwarp Pro is one 
of my favorite shoes, if not my 

561
00:30:37,534 --> 00:30:42,459
favorite shoe of the year. 
I think now I have well over 250

562
00:30:42,459 --> 00:30:45,099
miles on it and it's still going
strong. 

563
00:30:45,719 --> 00:30:49,379
So I would consider it a plated 
performance trainer, although 

564
00:30:49,379 --> 00:30:51,939
Mizuno advertised it as a racing
shoe. 

565
00:30:52,699 --> 00:30:57,010
But I can use that shoe for 
literally anything. 

566
00:30:57,010 --> 00:31:03,282
Easy runs, workouts, long runs. 
So if you had to say, well, 

567
00:31:03,282 --> 00:31:06,205
what's your favorite plated 
performance trainer of 2026? 

568
00:31:06,205 --> 00:31:08,760
That is probably it for me. 
Yeah. 

569
00:31:09,260 --> 00:31:10,946
Yeah. 
Yeah, it's an interesting one 

570
00:31:10,946 --> 00:31:13,756
because that one especially, I 
mean, it's certainly the least 

571
00:31:13,756 --> 00:31:15,530
speedy of the three. 
Yes. 

572
00:31:15,530 --> 00:31:18,271
You know, they wanted that to be
like the approachable super 

573
00:31:18,271 --> 00:31:20,594
shoe. 
But then it ends up just kind of

574
00:31:20,594 --> 00:31:24,699
being a really nice trainer. 
Yeah, well, and because they 

575
00:31:24,699 --> 00:31:29,439
made it so medially biased, like
Matt hates it because it's just 

576
00:31:29,599 --> 00:31:33,823
it's too unstable for him, but 
it's perfect for me or for 

577
00:31:33,823 --> 00:31:36,280
anybody else who has lateral 
stability issues. 

578
00:31:36,989 --> 00:31:41,474
So it is interesting that they 
advertised it as the most stable

579
00:31:41,474 --> 00:31:46,836
of the three when it's really 
got a very specific type of 

580
00:31:46,836 --> 00:31:51,300
stability that most runners 
actually don't need and most 

581
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,634
runners might actually find it 
to be unstable because of the 

582
00:31:55,634 --> 00:31:58,626
way it pushes you medially in 
the forefoot. 

583
00:31:58,626 --> 00:32:01,713
Yeah. 
All right. 

584
00:32:01,713 --> 00:32:06,117
So our next this or that is 
buying shoes built for a 

585
00:32:06,117 --> 00:32:08,680
specific task or buying shoes 
with versatility. 

586
00:32:09,869 --> 00:32:12,935
What do you say? 
Oh, man. 

587
00:32:12,935 --> 00:32:17,023
Bach, why'd you do this to me, 
man? 

588
00:32:17,023 --> 00:32:20,089
Jeez. 
That's actually a really good 

589
00:32:20,089 --> 00:32:22,632
one. 
That's a hard one. 

590
00:32:22,632 --> 00:32:26,056
Yeah. 
I feel like if money wasn't an 

591
00:32:26,056 --> 00:32:31,332
object at all, I probably would 
go with the buying for specific 

592
00:32:31,332 --> 00:32:34,150
use. 
Just because it's like you've 

593
00:32:34,150 --> 00:32:37,155
got the daily trainer you really
like just for easy miles. 

594
00:32:37,155 --> 00:32:40,290
You've got your speed shoe. 
You've got your workout shoe. 

595
00:32:40,290 --> 00:32:43,412
You've got your racing shoe. 
I mean, at that point, your 

596
00:32:43,412 --> 00:32:44,780
racing shoe could just be your 
workout shoe. 

597
00:32:46,979 --> 00:32:53,030
I think if I was being 
financially responsible, like I 

598
00:32:53,030 --> 00:32:59,110
said earlier, I could probably 
just buy the SC Rebel and call 

599
00:32:59,110 --> 00:33:04,108
it a day for this year. 
That shoe is actually fast and I

600
00:33:04,108 --> 00:33:07,231
probably could race. 
And it isn't as fast as like the

601
00:33:07,231 --> 00:33:09,199
super shoes out there right now.
Probably not. 

602
00:33:10,180 --> 00:33:14,599
You know, like I love my Mizuno 
Hyperwarp Pure. 

603
00:33:14,599 --> 00:33:20,979
I love my Mizuno Hyperwarp Pure.
Have you raced in that shoe yet?

604
00:33:21,819 --> 00:33:24,500
No, I haven't really raced, you 
know. 

605
00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:26,798
But I've done plenty of 
workouts. 

606
00:33:26,798 --> 00:33:32,380
I did like do a couple of fast 
stuff in it, but nothing that 

607
00:33:32,380 --> 00:33:36,250
was like formally timed or like 
an all-out effort yet. 

608
00:33:36,250 --> 00:33:39,300
So I will have to. 
I got to get in shape and then 

609
00:33:39,300 --> 00:33:41,758
go do something. 
I would have done that mile time

610
00:33:41,758 --> 00:33:44,280
trial that I did like not that 
long ago on that like little 

611
00:33:44,439 --> 00:33:46,819
neighborhood loop thing. 
I would have done it in that 

612
00:33:46,819 --> 00:33:49,472
shoe if I wasn't testing the TYR
Valkyrie Elite 2. 

613
00:33:49,472 --> 00:33:51,840
Oh, yeah. 
You know, so that was, like, 

614
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,023
situational where it was like, 
no, I'm doing this in the TYR. 

615
00:33:55,023 --> 00:33:57,240
I gotta do this in the TYR. 
I don't know where else I'm 

616
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,367
gonna fit this time in. 
So Oh, and by the way, what was 

617
00:34:00,367 --> 00:34:01,903
your time on that mile segment 
you did? 

618
00:34:01,903 --> 00:34:03,439
Oh, we don't want to put that 
on. 

619
00:34:03,459 --> 00:34:06,459
Oh, come on. 
Just, you know, for listeners, 

620
00:34:06,459 --> 00:34:11,373
David's version of not in shape 
is running a five-minute mile on

621
00:34:11,373 --> 00:34:15,183
a hilly course. 
So yeah, it was 5:01. 

622
00:34:15,183 --> 00:34:20,907
It's a weird loop because it's 
like you do have some downhill 

623
00:34:20,907 --> 00:34:24,351
at the start, but it's not 
really the type of downhill you 

624
00:34:24,351 --> 00:34:26,360
get a lot of traction from. 
Yeah. 

625
00:34:26,820 --> 00:34:30,335
It's like a gradual downhill, 
but the road is like an S-curvy 

626
00:34:30,335 --> 00:34:32,956
type road, and then it's also, 
like, very rolly. 

627
00:34:32,956 --> 00:34:35,813
So even though it's like a net 
down, you're kind of just 

628
00:34:35,813 --> 00:34:38,478
constantly getting these little 
bumps, and you don't get into a 

629
00:34:38,478 --> 00:34:40,366
great rhythm. 
And then on the back side of 

630
00:34:40,366 --> 00:34:43,260
that loop, when you're coming 
back around, that's probably the

631
00:34:43,260 --> 00:34:45,710
most rhythmic section, except 
it's all uphill. 

632
00:34:45,710 --> 00:34:49,148
So if you're tired, like, that's
the most straight you're gonna 

633
00:34:49,148 --> 00:34:51,722
get on something, so you're not 
gonna go any faster. 

634
00:34:51,722 --> 00:34:55,371
So I went into that probably in 
the high 4:40s, came out five 

635
00:34:55,371 --> 00:34:57,299
flat. 
You know, I lost some, lost some

636
00:34:57,299 --> 00:35:00,000
wind in my sail. 
First effort there, for sure. 

637
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,047
And you got the segment. 
So I got the segment. 

638
00:35:03,047 --> 00:35:05,344
That was, that was the main 
mission, right? 

639
00:35:05,344 --> 00:35:08,383
That was make sure we get the 
segment and hopefully run 

640
00:35:08,383 --> 00:35:10,219
4:40-something, which I didn't. 
Yeah. 

641
00:35:10,219 --> 00:35:15,005
But yeah, I mean, you've got to 
run a 4:40 mile so you can pace 

642
00:35:15,005 --> 00:35:18,255
me to a 2:20 800. 
Yeah, that's your goal. 

643
00:35:18,255 --> 00:35:20,815
That I'm confident, though. 
I mean, because I can, I can run

644
00:35:20,815 --> 00:35:22,281
a 2:20 800. 
I got that. 

645
00:35:22,281 --> 00:35:24,191
Excellent. 
Especially on the track. 

646
00:35:24,191 --> 00:35:25,717
Yeah. 
Let's do it. 

647
00:35:25,717 --> 00:35:29,268
Yeah, it's funny. 
But I mean, who knows? 

648
00:35:29,268 --> 00:35:31,996
Maybe we'll just race each other
straight up. 

649
00:35:31,996 --> 00:35:33,360
DOR retreat. 
Who wins? 

650
00:35:33,820 --> 00:35:36,853
David versus Andrea. 
You don't need that handicap. 

651
00:35:36,853 --> 00:35:41,401
David has to wear trail shoes. 
I mean, those are the trail 

652
00:35:41,401 --> 00:35:43,610
picks. 
I could probably move pretty 

653
00:35:43,610 --> 00:35:46,085
well in those. 
I'm like, what's the lightest 

654
00:35:46,085 --> 00:35:49,343
trail shoe I got? 
You know, the inov-8 TrailFly 

655
00:35:49,343 --> 00:35:53,080
Pro could maybe work. 
That or the Teva. 

656
00:35:53,439 --> 00:35:57,839
That's probably what I would 
reach for if I had to wear a 

657
00:35:57,839 --> 00:36:00,205
trail shoe. 
What was the old Endorphin? 

658
00:36:00,205 --> 00:36:03,200
Oh, Endorphin Trail. 
No, the one before it. 

659
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,080
It was called something else. 
That was a fast shoe. 

660
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,699
They had the Endorphin Trail. 
Yeah, the pink one. 

661
00:36:08,699 --> 00:36:11,328
Yeah, Endorphin Edge, I think. 
Yeah, that was a nice shoe. 

662
00:36:11,328 --> 00:36:14,109
Yeah, yeah. 
I don't know if I want to go on 

663
00:36:14,109 --> 00:36:17,259
the track in that, though. 
Well, that's the point here, 

664
00:36:17,259 --> 00:36:20,399
David, is that I want you to... 
That's the handicap. 

665
00:36:20,479 --> 00:36:24,359
Yeah, make it the least nimble, 
most fluffy trail shoe. 

666
00:36:24,359 --> 00:36:28,239
I might as well just race in 
some Hoka Stinsons. 

667
00:36:28,540 --> 00:36:30,898
That's what's going to be. 800 
in the Stinson. 

668
00:36:30,898 --> 00:36:32,992
Deal. 
I used to know someone who would

669
00:36:32,992 --> 00:36:36,100
do a lot of workouts in the 
Bondi, and it amazed me. 

670
00:36:36,100 --> 00:36:38,348
They'd be ripping on the track 
in the Bondi. 

671
00:36:38,348 --> 00:36:40,340
I'd be like, how are you doing 
that? 

672
00:36:40,379 --> 00:36:42,486
And I'm like, my foot doesn't 
hurt. 

673
00:36:42,486 --> 00:36:45,496
So, like, when I wear this, my 
foot doesn't hurt. 

674
00:36:45,496 --> 00:36:49,244
So, I'm like, fair enough. 
That's like the swimmer 

675
00:36:49,244 --> 00:36:52,704
equivalent of training in like 
four swimsuits and then going 

676
00:36:52,704 --> 00:36:56,509
out and killing your race 
because you've like cut the drag

677
00:36:56,509 --> 00:36:57,980
by 4x. 
Yeah. 

678
00:36:57,980 --> 00:36:58,740
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

679
00:36:58,740 --> 00:37:02,345
I'd be amazed. 
I'd just be watching and I'm 

680
00:37:02,345 --> 00:37:06,115
like, my gosh, man, like ripping
like sub-72-second 400s on 

681
00:37:06,115 --> 00:37:09,056
rhythm and like in Bondis. 
It's nuts. 

682
00:37:09,056 --> 00:37:10,580
That's impressive. 
Yeah. 

683
00:37:10,580 --> 00:37:11,596
Anywho. 
Yeah. 

684
00:37:11,596 --> 00:37:13,120
So 5:01. 
Nice. 

685
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:14,136
Yeah. 
Congratulations. 

686
00:37:14,136 --> 00:37:19,636
We know you can go faster. 
Gotta start somewhere. 

687
00:37:19,636 --> 00:37:24,472
The crazy thing is it's like if 
I slowed that down, like, 15 

688
00:37:24,472 --> 00:37:27,644
seconds, I could probably string
together four of those, you 

689
00:37:27,644 --> 00:37:29,429
know. 
Isn't that weird when it comes 

690
00:37:29,429 --> 00:37:31,979
to energy systems? 
It's like you just take the pace

691
00:37:32,199 --> 00:37:35,620
off just a little bit and all of
a sudden it's aerobic enough and

692
00:37:35,620 --> 00:37:39,078
you can just hold it. 
Maybe not four of them, maybe 

693
00:37:39,078 --> 00:37:40,656
three of them. 
That'd be 15:45. 

694
00:37:40,656 --> 00:37:43,020
It's like the type of athlete 
you are, too. 

695
00:37:43,439 --> 00:37:48,075
Like, some people can run very 
fast, but their 5K time sucks, 

696
00:37:48,075 --> 00:37:50,349
you know, or vice versa. 
Yeah. 

697
00:37:50,349 --> 00:37:53,760
So I feel like I have halfway 
decent range. 

698
00:37:54,540 --> 00:37:58,484
Never been, like, great at any 
distance, but I don't know. 

699
00:37:58,484 --> 00:38:03,268
I got down to 3:54 in the 15. 
I feel like that's okay. 

700
00:38:03,268 --> 00:38:06,688
That's pretty good. 
And 2:25 in the marathon. 

701
00:38:06,688 --> 00:38:09,677
I don't know. 
Yeah, that's good range. 

702
00:38:09,677 --> 00:38:12,239
Yeah, yeah. 
All right, moving on. 

703
00:38:12,439 --> 00:38:15,013
All right, we'll move on. 
Now that our listeners are going

704
00:38:15,013 --> 00:38:23,428
to be like, oh, David. 
All right, so my answer to this 

705
00:38:23,428 --> 00:38:26,860
question would be, I actually 
like shoes that are versatile. 

706
00:38:27,250 --> 00:38:31,475
And I think the best example of 
a very versatile shoe was the 

707
00:38:31,475 --> 00:38:34,399
Brooks Hyperion Max 1. 
That shoe could do everything. 

708
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:39,429
I could run 20 miles easy in it.
I could do marathon pace long 

709
00:38:39,429 --> 00:38:43,590
runs. 
I could do mile pace workouts in

710
00:38:43,590 --> 00:38:46,080
it, strides, hill sprints, 
everything. 

711
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:51,493
And it's nice having one shoe 
that just does everything like 

712
00:38:51,493 --> 00:38:54,642
that. 
Now, of course, we also talk a 

713
00:38:54,642 --> 00:38:58,000
lot about why having a shoe 
rotation is important and how 

714
00:38:58,399 --> 00:39:03,323
one of the few things that 
actually can reduce injury risk 

715
00:39:03,323 --> 00:39:06,899
is running in more than one shoe
concurrently. 

716
00:39:06,959 --> 00:39:11,012
So like not running in the same 
shoe every day, but having one 

717
00:39:11,012 --> 00:39:13,500
shoe on Monday, different shoe 
on Tuesday, etc. 

718
00:39:14,439 --> 00:39:17,439
But it's kind of nice having the
simplicity of just like this 

719
00:39:17,439 --> 00:39:21,332
shoe fits me well. 
I know how it responds and it 

720
00:39:21,332 --> 00:39:23,544
can handle anything I throw at 
it. 

721
00:39:23,544 --> 00:39:25,439
Like I appreciate shoes like 
that. 

722
00:39:25,850 --> 00:39:29,679
The problem is there just aren't
that many of them anymore. 

723
00:39:29,679 --> 00:39:33,159
The current Hyperion Max 4 is 
certainly not like that. 

724
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:40,299
There's just so few shoes that 
can handle that wide range of 

725
00:39:40,299 --> 00:39:43,869
paces. 
So, yeah, I would prefer having 

726
00:39:43,869 --> 00:39:48,979
a shoe that is versatile, but it
ends up being you need a shoe 

727
00:39:48,979 --> 00:39:53,013
for, you know, easy runs, daily 
trainer, performance trainer, 

728
00:39:53,013 --> 00:39:56,017
racing shoe. 
And that does, you know, just 

729
00:39:56,017 --> 00:39:58,159
help you sort out your shoe 
rotation better. 

730
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,970
But I think just from a 
simplicity standpoint, I 

731
00:40:03,970 --> 00:40:06,420
appreciate having a do-it-all 
shoe. 

732
00:40:06,420 --> 00:40:10,804
Yeah, and I like that too. 
I mean, it's kind of nice to be 

733
00:40:10,804 --> 00:40:13,276
able to just walk up to whether 
it be a shoe wall, your shoe 

734
00:40:13,276 --> 00:40:16,760
rack, the floor, just walk up 
and grab the shoe, put it on, 

735
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,471
slip it on, go out. 
You don't even think about it, 

736
00:40:19,471 --> 00:40:20,953
right? 
There's no like, oh, like, what 

737
00:40:20,953 --> 00:40:24,092
am I going to wear today? 
I've got 15 miles at marathon 

738
00:40:24,092 --> 00:40:26,711
pace tomorrow. 
Do I want to wear my super shoe 

739
00:40:26,711 --> 00:40:29,060
or do I want to save miles on 
that? 

740
00:40:29,199 --> 00:40:31,893
Like, you're just like, no, just
grab the shoe, you know, put it 

741
00:40:31,893 --> 00:40:34,755
on. out the door. 
And you know, we're so lucky 

742
00:40:34,755 --> 00:40:37,130
that we have so many shoes to 
run in. 

743
00:40:37,130 --> 00:40:41,577
But the reality is that most 
people don't have a 15 shoe 

744
00:40:41,577 --> 00:40:45,114
rotation, right? 
So I think for the vast majority

745
00:40:45,114 --> 00:40:48,765
of people who don't get shoes 
sent to them every week, it's 

746
00:40:48,765 --> 00:40:50,760
nice having shoes that are more 
versatile. 

747
00:40:51,250 --> 00:40:54,436
And just in my experience 
working with runners, most 

748
00:40:54,436 --> 00:40:59,404
runners have one or two shoes 
that they use, not a 10-shoe 

749
00:40:59,404 --> 00:41:02,728
rotation. 
So it might behoove running shoe

750
00:41:02,728 --> 00:41:06,520
companies to consider that when 
designing their shoes. 

751
00:41:07,919 --> 00:41:10,889
But that remains to be seen. 
What else we got? 

752
00:41:10,889 --> 00:41:12,371
All right. 
So next topic. 

753
00:41:12,371 --> 00:41:18,474
Oh, I think this is a good one. 
Recovery run or long walk? 

754
00:41:18,474 --> 00:41:22,912
And considering this question 
for both recreational and 

755
00:41:22,912 --> 00:41:26,808
experienced runners. 
Yeah, I think that's a great 

756
00:41:26,808 --> 00:41:29,360
one. 
I think for the non-experienced 

757
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:33,838
runners, running is already 
going to be a relatively novel 

758
00:41:33,838 --> 00:41:38,966
and large stimulus on your body.
So I'm actually I'm a big fan of

759
00:41:38,966 --> 00:41:41,360
just taking the recovery walk as
your scaling activity. 

760
00:41:41,679 --> 00:41:44,608
It's a great way to still get 
some aerobic work in while 

761
00:41:44,608 --> 00:41:46,560
having a very low impact on your
body. 

762
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:53,225
For the more experienced 
runners, I will lean towards 

763
00:41:53,225 --> 00:41:57,770
easy run, with the caveat in 
that please make it easy. 

764
00:41:57,770 --> 00:42:01,220
I think a lot of people dig a 
little bit of a well, and they 

765
00:42:01,220 --> 00:42:04,003
run those runs a little bit 
harder than they probably 

766
00:42:04,003 --> 00:42:06,350
should. 
I was listening to an interview 

767
00:42:06,350 --> 00:42:10,702
the other day, and I'm gonna 
butcher his name, I am so sorry,

768
00:42:10,702 --> 00:42:14,374
I don't, but I think it's like 
Zouhair Talbi, the ASICS runner.

769
00:42:14,374 --> 00:42:16,975
Do you know who I'm talking 
about? 

770
00:42:16,975 --> 00:42:22,777
He ran, I think he ran 2:03 at 
Boston this year. 

771
00:42:22,777 --> 00:42:26,860
Oh, yes. 
And he's just been so freaking 

772
00:42:26,860 --> 00:42:28,750
good over the last few seasons, 
quietly. 

773
00:42:28,750 --> 00:42:32,617
You know, I feel like he's not 
one of the big names that you 

774
00:42:32,617 --> 00:42:35,007
talk about when you talk about 
the best, like, American 

775
00:42:35,007 --> 00:42:38,674
distance runners right now. 
And, or wait, I don't even know 

776
00:42:38,674 --> 00:42:41,120
if he was trying to represent 
the U.S. or not. 

777
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,956
I'd have to look that up because
I think, I don't know why, I 

778
00:42:44,956 --> 00:42:46,684
vaguely remember Morocco for 
some reason. 

779
00:42:46,684 --> 00:42:49,119
It's like Zouhair Talbi or 
Taliby. 

780
00:42:49,119 --> 00:42:52,519
Here, I'll look it up for you. 
Okay. 

781
00:42:52,519 --> 00:42:55,919
But, oh, he isn't. 
Yep, he's an American. 

782
00:42:56,399 --> 00:42:58,856
Here. 
And the fastest time ever run by

783
00:42:58,856 --> 00:43:00,698
an American at Boston. 
Got it. 

784
00:43:00,698 --> 00:43:03,210
Broke Ryan Hall's record by over
a minute. 

785
00:43:03,210 --> 00:43:07,105
I was right on both. 
This is how good my brain is, a 

786
00:43:07,105 --> 00:43:08,895
running encyclopedia. 
But it says Moroccan-born 

787
00:43:08,895 --> 00:43:12,190
American when I look him up, 
because I was like, I vaguely 

788
00:43:12,190 --> 00:43:14,409
remember Morocco. 
He was trying to make the 

789
00:43:14,409 --> 00:43:17,239
Moroccan team for the last 
Olympics, I believe, and then 

790
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,450
didn't make it. 
But he ran 2:07, I think, or 

791
00:43:20,450 --> 00:43:25,119
2:06 at the last second before 
the, before the Olympic Games. 

792
00:43:25,119 --> 00:43:28,038
And he's just been so good 
quietly. 

793
00:43:28,038 --> 00:43:31,392
But anyways, not to gas him up. 
I mean, although he deserves to 

794
00:43:31,392 --> 00:43:32,940
be gassed up. 
Keep going, dog. 

795
00:43:32,959 --> 00:43:35,653
But yeah, he's doing pretty 
good. 

796
00:43:35,653 --> 00:43:40,143
He's doing pretty good. 
But I was listening to an 

797
00:43:40,143 --> 00:43:44,001
interview with him, and he was 
saying that, like, his workouts,

798
00:43:44,001 --> 00:43:47,620
like, he's going pretty hard, 
and then, like, the easy days 

799
00:43:47,899 --> 00:43:50,803
he's legitimately running, like,
nine-minute miles for someone 

800
00:43:50,803 --> 00:43:53,938
who's just run 2:03 earlier this
year, right? 

801
00:43:53,938 --> 00:43:58,198
Like, nine minutes is crawling 
for people that are that fast. 

802
00:43:58,198 --> 00:44:02,900
And not to say that everyone has
to go run, you know, 11-minute 

803
00:44:02,900 --> 00:44:06,980
miles if your marathon pace is 
6:30 or 7 or something, but, 

804
00:44:06,980 --> 00:44:12,161
like, just really check in with 
your body and, like, make those 

805
00:44:12,161 --> 00:44:15,679
easy runs easy. 
If you have volume and you're 

806
00:44:15,820 --> 00:44:19,648
putting all the work in, like, 
you'll get the aerobic work in, 

807
00:44:19,648 --> 00:44:22,574
and you don't want to damage 
yourself going forwards. 

808
00:44:22,574 --> 00:44:25,622
If you're not running quite as 
much, like, let's say it's three

809
00:44:25,622 --> 00:44:28,643
or four days a week, and you 
could probably get away with a 

810
00:44:28,643 --> 00:44:30,674
little bit more. 
But if you're running a lot and 

811
00:44:30,674 --> 00:44:34,324
you're stringing together a good
amount of volume and there's not

812
00:44:34,324 --> 00:44:38,551
that many, like, days off per 
se, it would benefit you greatly

813
00:44:38,551 --> 00:44:41,079
to have that easy run be 
genuinely easy. 

814
00:44:41,079 --> 00:44:44,593
And it was funny, in the 
interview, the hosts, the 

815
00:44:44,593 --> 00:44:46,923
podcast or interview, whatever 
it was, because I just saw, 

816
00:44:46,923 --> 00:44:50,240
like, the little clip of it, I 
didn't watch the whole thing. 

817
00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:53,120
They went and, like, 
fact-checked him on it real 

818
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,435
quick, and, like, all of his 
Strava runs are, like, high 

819
00:44:56,435 --> 00:44:59,018
eight minutes, you know? 
Like, yeah, eight, low nine. 

820
00:44:59,018 --> 00:45:02,384
Yeah, he's like, he's like, I 
start my runs at like 10, 

821
00:45:02,384 --> 00:45:04,760
11-minute miles, like, because 
he's just like crawling, and 

822
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,976
then he just gets himself up a 
little bit faster naturally, but

823
00:45:07,976 --> 00:45:11,384
still, like, how easy can I 
possibly go and just hit my 

824
00:45:11,384 --> 00:45:13,534
mileage for the day? 
Like, and it has nothing to do 

825
00:45:13,534 --> 00:45:16,415
with, like, trying to get it 
done within a certain time or 

826
00:45:16,415 --> 00:45:18,352
whatever. 
It's like, nope, job for today 

827
00:45:18,352 --> 00:45:20,962
is to go easy. 
And just refreshing to hear that

828
00:45:20,962 --> 00:45:23,575
because I feel like we've seen 
that with a lot of East African 

829
00:45:23,575 --> 00:45:26,709
athletes over the years too, 
where, like, a lot of them, 

830
00:45:26,709 --> 00:45:29,679
culturally as well, like, 
they'll have super, super easy 

831
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:32,560
runs where they're practically 
shuffling, you know, until 

832
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,034
they're not, and they're 
running, you know, sub-three 

833
00:45:35,034 --> 00:45:38,662
minutes per K. 
But, but that's the idea. 

834
00:45:38,662 --> 00:45:44,009
When you're running that fast, 
you have to balance it out with 

835
00:45:44,009 --> 00:45:46,809
very easy runs. 
And, you know, we've talked 

836
00:45:46,809 --> 00:45:50,689
about this over and over. 
You, so many runners just get 

837
00:45:50,689 --> 00:45:52,894
stuck in that middle. 
Like, they never actually run 

838
00:45:52,894 --> 00:45:55,909
truly hard, and they never 
actually run truly easy and they

839
00:45:55,909 --> 00:45:57,739
wonder why they don't get 
faster. 

840
00:45:58,060 --> 00:46:01,715
It's because you're not giving 
your body the right stimulus to 

841
00:46:01,715 --> 00:46:05,652
actually improve. 
You're just carrying on at like 

842
00:46:05,652 --> 00:46:10,774
a moderate level of fatigue 
without pushing hard enough to 

843
00:46:10,774 --> 00:46:15,119
improve fitness and then going 
easy enough to allow yourself to

844
00:46:15,119 --> 00:46:17,485
recover and absorb that hard 
work. 

845
00:46:17,485 --> 00:46:19,669
Yeah. 
So that'd be my answer. 

846
00:46:19,669 --> 00:46:22,480
You know, the recovery walk for 
those who are less experienced 

847
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,648
and then the genuinely easy day 
for those who are more 

848
00:46:25,648 --> 00:46:28,688
experienced, and that's the key.
I would agree with that. 

849
00:46:28,688 --> 00:46:34,835
So I think it comes down to, can
you make a run truly easy? 

850
00:46:34,835 --> 00:46:40,446
So a faster runner can, like, 
tell me he's running, you know, 

851
00:46:40,446 --> 00:46:43,530
sub-five-minute miles in the 
marathon, and he's running 

852
00:46:43,530 --> 00:46:47,292
nine-minute pace, his heart rate
is unquestionably in zone one, 

853
00:46:47,292 --> 00:46:49,483
right? 
But for a lot of more 

854
00:46:49,483 --> 00:46:52,927
recreational runners, the only 
way to get your heart rate in 

855
00:46:52,927 --> 00:46:56,635
zone one and make it a true 
recovery run is to walk. 

856
00:46:56,635 --> 00:47:01,877
So that's one way to look at it.
If you can't get your heart rate

857
00:47:01,877 --> 00:47:05,326
down low enough where this is 
truly recovery, then a walk 

858
00:47:05,326 --> 00:47:08,934
would be better for you. 
I'm also a really big fan of 

859
00:47:08,934 --> 00:47:12,837
using cycling as a way to 
recover from running, and I'm 

860
00:47:12,837 --> 00:47:16,984
biased because I am a cyclist, 
but for people who have either a

861
00:47:16,984 --> 00:47:20,384
cycling background or enjoy 
riding a spin bike every once in

862
00:47:20,384 --> 00:47:24,020
a while, it's so easy to control
your effort on the bike, 

863
00:47:24,620 --> 00:47:26,365
especially if you're riding 
indoors. 

864
00:47:26,365 --> 00:47:30,899
And because of the low impact 
nature, it is a great way to 

865
00:47:31,679 --> 00:47:35,779
flush out the legs, get rid of 
stiffness, help with recovery 

866
00:47:35,779 --> 00:47:37,639
without accidentally going too 
fast. 

867
00:47:38,300 --> 00:47:42,630
But that being said, for more 
experienced runners who need 

868
00:47:42,630 --> 00:47:47,588
more mileage, I think when you 
can, making your recovery days 

869
00:47:47,588 --> 00:47:50,199
just very easy runs is the best 
choice. 

870
00:47:51,060 --> 00:47:54,898
Now, there's some great examples
of professional runners who do 

871
00:47:54,898 --> 00:47:59,494
relatively low mileage and then 
use the bike to add to that 

872
00:47:59,494 --> 00:48:02,360
aerobic mileage. 
Georgia Hunter Bell is a great 

873
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,550
example of that. 
I think I read she maxes out at 

874
00:48:05,550 --> 00:48:08,159
like 35 miles of running a week.
No way. 

875
00:48:08,679 --> 00:48:11,192
Yeah, but she's on the bike. 
Go off, Queen. 

876
00:48:11,192 --> 00:48:13,703
Yeah, she's killing it. 
The last like three seasons, 

877
00:48:13,703 --> 00:48:15,453
she's been phenomenal. 
She's amazing. 

878
00:48:15,453 --> 00:48:17,591
Well, because she was a 
triathlete. 

879
00:48:17,591 --> 00:48:20,439
Oh, I didn't realize that was 
her background. 

880
00:48:20,979 --> 00:48:24,723
Well, I think she did some 
triathlons as, you know, in that

881
00:48:24,723 --> 00:48:28,466
period where, you know, she was 
a collegiate runner and then she

882
00:48:28,466 --> 00:48:32,509
kind of stopped competing as a 
runner and, you know, had a real

883
00:48:32,509 --> 00:48:35,761
job. 
I think she competed in some 

884
00:48:35,761 --> 00:48:38,936
tries. 
If I remember right, I do know 

885
00:48:38,936 --> 00:48:42,500
she was a cyclist in that, like,
interim period. 

886
00:48:43,159 --> 00:48:46,279
So for people who have that 
background and are set up well 

887
00:48:46,279 --> 00:48:49,139
on their bikes, of course, a 
bike fit is very important. 

888
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:54,266
Cycling can be such a great 
adjunct to your run training. 

889
00:48:54,266 --> 00:48:56,800
I mean, I've trained, I'm a 
coach. 

890
00:48:57,379 --> 00:49:00,944
And when I have marathoners who,
for whatever reason, can't put 

891
00:49:00,944 --> 00:49:03,860
the mileage in running to 
prepare for their marathon, 

892
00:49:04,860 --> 00:49:10,775
Getting some four to six hour 
rides in is a really great way 

893
00:49:10,775 --> 00:49:15,325
to extend your weekly training 
without getting the pounding of 

894
00:49:15,325 --> 00:49:17,710
running. 
Four to six hour rides? 

895
00:49:17,710 --> 00:49:20,798
Mm-hmm. 
Like, not four to six hours of 

896
00:49:20,798 --> 00:49:21,570
riding. 
No. 

897
00:49:21,570 --> 00:49:23,500
Like, in one day. 
Oh. 

898
00:49:23,979 --> 00:49:27,068
But you've got to understand, 
that sounds horrible to a 

899
00:49:27,068 --> 00:49:29,224
runner. 
I know, but the impact isn't 

900
00:49:29,224 --> 00:49:31,409
quite as... for four to six 
hours. 

901
00:49:31,409 --> 00:49:34,469
Yeah, you're tired when you're 
done, but you're not, like, 

902
00:49:34,469 --> 00:49:38,182
destroyed the way you are after 
a long run because of the lower 

903
00:49:38,182 --> 00:49:40,719
impact nature. 
And it's so much easier to fuel 

904
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:44,294
on the bike. 
Like, you know, I, I've done who

905
00:49:44,294 --> 00:49:47,584
knows how many rides that long 
in my lifetime. 

906
00:49:47,584 --> 00:49:51,487
That's just a normal thing for, 
I know, yeah, cyclists. 

907
00:49:51,487 --> 00:49:55,027
Yeah, for racing cyclists. 
Yeah, those days are awfully 

908
00:49:55,027 --> 00:49:58,339
long. 
So getting back to the question,

909
00:49:58,339 --> 00:50:02,739
yes, you need to choose the 
appropriate modality to actually

910
00:50:02,739 --> 00:50:07,138
allow yourself to recover. 
So for less fit runners, walking

911
00:50:07,138 --> 00:50:12,406
is probably the better choice. 
But for both fit and less fit 

912
00:50:12,406 --> 00:50:15,479
runners, cycling is also a great
choice. 

913
00:50:15,659 --> 00:50:19,608
And I certainly use cycling to 
support my running training and 

914
00:50:19,608 --> 00:50:23,169
to very good effect. 
I can be, you know, hobbling 

915
00:50:23,169 --> 00:50:26,319
around and then get on the bike 
for an easy hour and I'm like a 

916
00:50:26,319 --> 00:50:29,464
new person. 
So the bike is magical. 

917
00:50:29,464 --> 00:50:32,180
Yeah. 
Another person I think of is 

918
00:50:32,180 --> 00:50:34,120
Parker Valby in that 
conversation. 

919
00:50:34,409 --> 00:50:35,766
She does a lot of cross 
training. 

920
00:50:35,766 --> 00:50:38,415
Yeah. 
I don't know what Donavan 

921
00:50:38,415 --> 00:50:41,830
Brazier's program looks like, 
but I remember at one point he 

922
00:50:41,830 --> 00:50:44,000
was capped around 40 ish, I 
think. 

923
00:50:44,159 --> 00:50:47,942
Like, there's no way to be 
number one in the world in the 

924
00:50:47,942 --> 00:50:50,734
800 during that time without 
having some other supplemental 

925
00:50:50,734 --> 00:50:53,583
stuff, you know, as far as 
training goes. 

926
00:50:53,583 --> 00:50:56,248
Definitely. 
So I imagine he was probably 

927
00:50:56,248 --> 00:50:59,104
grinding, too, on some other 
cross-training stuff. 

928
00:50:59,104 --> 00:51:02,667
But yeah, that's always 
interesting when you look at the

929
00:51:02,667 --> 00:51:05,175
low mileage people and how they 
do it, and it's like there's 

930
00:51:05,175 --> 00:51:08,112
just so many different ways to 
train at the end of the day, 

931
00:51:08,112 --> 00:51:09,679
right? 
Training is training if you do 

932
00:51:09,679 --> 00:51:10,794
it smart, right? 
So yeah. 

933
00:51:10,794 --> 00:51:14,023
And of course, it's like for the
individual, you have to look at,

934
00:51:14,023 --> 00:51:16,786
like, where there's still room 
to improve, especially when 

935
00:51:16,786 --> 00:51:19,396
you're talking about 
professionals who have already, 

936
00:51:19,396 --> 00:51:24,103
you know, done most of the 
things to improve, and now 

937
00:51:24,103 --> 00:51:28,339
they're just looking for that, 
like, last 0.1 percent. 

938
00:51:28,339 --> 00:51:33,540
Does Josh Kerr living in an 
elevated room count as cross 

939
00:51:33,540 --> 00:51:37,124
training? 
Did you see, like, leading up to

940
00:51:37,124 --> 00:51:42,215
the race when he broke the world
record, he, so he basically, 

941
00:51:42,215 --> 00:51:46,853
like, made his room, they must 
have, like, air sealed it or 

942
00:51:46,853 --> 00:51:49,620
something and made it like, oh, 
an altitude chamber. 

943
00:51:49,620 --> 00:51:51,360
Yeah, like an altitude chamber, 
basically. 

944
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,868
So he was like living at, like, 
I don't actually know, I'm gonna

945
00:51:54,868 --> 00:51:56,860
say like 10,000 feet or 
something, something super 

946
00:51:57,060 --> 00:51:58,362
crazy. 
And then, like, he would 

947
00:51:58,362 --> 00:52:00,959
basically just come out of his 
room, do all of his training, 

948
00:52:01,540 --> 00:52:03,520
and then just go right back into
his room. 

949
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:06,362
And just, like, he just, like, 
would leave his room only for 

950
00:52:06,362 --> 00:52:08,776
the necessities for, like, a 
while. 

951
00:52:08,776 --> 00:52:13,600
And it was just, like, yeah, 
just try to get the aerobic 

952
00:52:13,879 --> 00:52:15,649
adaptations from that. 
Oh, yeah. 

953
00:52:15,649 --> 00:52:19,187
I mean, for any endurance 
athlete who can't live at 

954
00:52:19,187 --> 00:52:21,748
altitude, those altitude tents 
are a great tool. 

955
00:52:21,748 --> 00:52:24,331
Yeah, yeah. 
But he, like, took it to another

956
00:52:24,331 --> 00:52:26,875
level. 
Like, I mean, people have always

957
00:52:26,875 --> 00:52:30,275
slept in them. 
Like, this dude was, like, 

958
00:52:30,275 --> 00:52:32,400
living caveman. 
Yeah, that's great. 

959
00:52:33,199 --> 00:52:36,984
It was like the only time he's 
not in there is he's training 

960
00:52:36,984 --> 00:52:40,667
and/or eating, and he's probably
eating in there too. 

961
00:52:40,667 --> 00:52:43,676
Yeah. 
Well, it worked for him. 

962
00:52:43,676 --> 00:52:50,597
Yeah, it worked. 
All right, so next question is 

963
00:52:50,597 --> 00:52:54,620
more outsole for durability or 
less outsole for less weight. 

964
00:52:55,679 --> 00:53:00,244
Oh, that's a good one. 
Yeah, that's a really good one. 

965
00:53:00,244 --> 00:53:04,800
I think it depends. 
I, I, it's not a DOR podcast 

966
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,910
episode if the word "it depends"
doesn't get dropped, right? 

967
00:53:07,910 --> 00:53:08,468
Right. 
Yep. 

968
00:53:08,468 --> 00:53:12,495
We should have, like, a sound 
that we play whenever someone 

969
00:53:12,495 --> 00:53:15,040
says "it depends." 
Yeah, yeah. 

970
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:18,596
I'm sure BJ can make that 
happen. 

971
00:53:18,596 --> 00:53:21,015
Yeah. 
Casper, we're relying on you. 

972
00:53:21,015 --> 00:53:23,933
Make, make this happen. 
One sound for "it depends" and 

973
00:53:23,933 --> 00:53:28,265
then another sound for whenever 
Matt makes a pun. 

974
00:53:28,265 --> 00:53:33,739
Yeah, yeah. 
Now I'm, like, thinking, like, 

975
00:53:33,739 --> 00:53:41,559
like, just, like, random noises.
Someone's gonna kick me off. 

976
00:53:41,559 --> 00:53:46,879
Okay. 
What was the question again? 

977
00:53:46,879 --> 00:53:48,945
Oh, wait, yes, more or less 
outsole. 

978
00:53:48,945 --> 00:53:50,814
Yeah. 
Oh, man. 

979
00:53:50,814 --> 00:53:55,689
I think in training shoes I'd go
more outsole, in racing shoes 

980
00:53:55,689 --> 00:53:58,257
less. 
I think, like, there's a minimum

981
00:53:58,257 --> 00:54:00,947
level of outsole you probably 
need to keep yourself from 

982
00:54:00,947 --> 00:54:04,099
slipping all over the place, and
that's been a very delicate 

983
00:54:04,099 --> 00:54:06,651
balance we've been seeing these 
companies try to do. 

984
00:54:06,651 --> 00:54:09,670
I would say especially Adidas. 
Like, they've been, like, 

985
00:54:09,670 --> 00:54:12,685
really, really getting that 
weight down, and, like, with, 

986
00:54:12,685 --> 00:54:14,980
they've been playing around 
with, like, the liquid rubbers 

987
00:54:14,980 --> 00:54:17,474
and, like, the different kinds 
of stuff, like anything they 

988
00:54:17,474 --> 00:54:20,499
could do to get that thing 
lighter and lighter and lighter.

989
00:54:20,499 --> 00:54:23,448
And maybe it doesn't mass 
produce, you know, to a shoe 

990
00:54:23,448 --> 00:54:26,018
that everyone's buying, but if 
it's just a pure performance, 

991
00:54:26,018 --> 00:54:29,965
like, we could think of it as, 
like, I don't know, like a 

992
00:54:29,965 --> 00:54:32,509
showcase of, like, a 
high-performance car that only 

993
00:54:32,509 --> 00:54:34,617
goes on the track or something, 
right? 

994
00:54:34,617 --> 00:54:37,445
Like, it's not the type of shoe 
you're gonna, you're not meant 

995
00:54:37,445 --> 00:54:40,243
to use it very much. 
It's meant to just be a 

996
00:54:40,243 --> 00:54:41,972
high-performing thing. 
In those situations, I think 

997
00:54:41,972 --> 00:54:44,044
it's totally fine to sacrifice 
some rubber. 

998
00:54:44,044 --> 00:54:47,946
But for some of the training 
shoes, especially just with how 

999
00:54:47,946 --> 00:54:50,990
the market is right now, shoes 
are expensive, and I think 

1000
00:54:50,990 --> 00:54:54,001
durability is going to win for 
the large majority of people. 

1001
00:54:54,001 --> 00:54:57,376
And kudos to, like, Saucony for 
the Endorphin Pro 5, because 

1002
00:54:57,376 --> 00:54:59,859
that was the approach they took 
with that. 

1003
00:54:59,859 --> 00:55:03,913
It was like, we want you to get 
300-plus miles out of this shoe.

1004
00:55:03,913 --> 00:55:04,780
Like, right. 
Yeah. 

1005
00:55:04,780 --> 00:55:07,393
It's a super shoe. 
It's going to weigh a little bit

1006
00:55:07,393 --> 00:55:10,798
more than the other ones, but, 
like, we want this to have a lot

1007
00:55:10,798 --> 00:55:14,424
of miles on the road for you. 
So it's, it's a tricky one, you 

1008
00:55:14,424 --> 00:55:16,867
know. 
I think you just, it's, it's 

1009
00:55:16,867 --> 00:55:19,668
hard, and it also depends on the
value of the individual, because

1010
00:55:19,668 --> 00:55:22,363
some people are going to be 
like, take that weight off. 

1011
00:55:22,363 --> 00:55:24,104
I don't, I don't need that 
traction. 

1012
00:55:24,104 --> 00:55:26,759
I don't care. 
I want every last ounce off the 

1013
00:55:26,759 --> 00:55:28,319
shoe for the marathon I'm 
running. 

1014
00:55:28,319 --> 00:55:30,399
Yeah. 
And others are like, no, this is

1015
00:55:30,399 --> 00:55:32,180
my shoe for the next five 
months. 

1016
00:55:32,180 --> 00:55:33,930
Please make this thing last. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1017
00:55:33,930 --> 00:55:36,817
Next five years. 
So yeah, I go back and forth on 

1018
00:55:36,817 --> 00:55:38,671
it. 
That'll be my one cheat. 

1019
00:55:38,671 --> 00:55:41,139
Yeah. 
I mean, it's, there are lots of 

1020
00:55:41,139 --> 00:55:45,001
people who use their shoes for 
that long, and they want them to

1021
00:55:45,001 --> 00:55:47,575
last, you know. 
They don't want the outsole to 

1022
00:55:47,575 --> 00:55:50,840
be what limits the durability of
their shoe. 

1023
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:56,926
I have the Hoka Clifton Pro up 
here, and I think this is a 

1024
00:55:56,926 --> 00:56:01,368
really good example of a daily 
trainer that figured out a way 

1025
00:56:01,368 --> 00:56:04,371
to reduce weight while still 
giving great traction. 

1026
00:56:04,371 --> 00:56:09,284
So these pods, this shoe has 
excellent traction in wet 

1027
00:56:09,284 --> 00:56:14,659
conditions, on dirt, on mud, but
there's not actually that much 

1028
00:56:14,659 --> 00:56:18,839
rubber on the outsole, but 
because of the shape of these 

1029
00:56:18,839 --> 00:56:23,755
pods, it gives pretty good grip.
So kudos to Hoka for coming up 

1030
00:56:23,755 --> 00:56:27,315
with this design because, you 
know, traditionally Hoka has not

1031
00:56:27,315 --> 00:56:29,722
been known for very good outsole
durability. 

1032
00:56:29,722 --> 00:56:33,936
I was just talking to a bike fit
client yesterday about that. 

1033
00:56:33,936 --> 00:56:38,199
Like, he loves Hoka, but the 
shoes die so quickly because the

1034
00:56:38,340 --> 00:56:42,021
outsole wears so fast, or the 
midsole wears fast. 

1035
00:56:42,021 --> 00:56:46,511
But I'm with you. 
In a racing shoe, we know the 

1036
00:56:46,511 --> 00:56:49,758
foam is probably not going to 
last that long, so just shave 

1037
00:56:49,758 --> 00:56:53,114
the weight off the outsole and 
make it as light as possible. 

1038
00:56:53,114 --> 00:56:56,988
But in a daily trainer, I don't 
want the outsole wearing out to 

1039
00:56:56,988 --> 00:57:00,356
be the thing that makes me 
replace the shoe, and that's 

1040
00:57:00,356 --> 00:57:03,128
certainly been the case in a 
number of shoes. 

1041
00:57:03,128 --> 00:57:07,268
So yep, a little extra weight on
a daily trainer is fine, but 

1042
00:57:07,268 --> 00:57:09,379
minimize that weight in our 
racing shoes. 

1043
00:57:11,820 --> 00:57:16,965
All right, next topic. 
Ah, liquids versus gels during 

1044
00:57:16,965 --> 00:57:19,249
long runs. 
Oh, liquids. 

1045
00:57:19,249 --> 00:57:23,000
Yes. 
That's a hard, that's easy for 

1046
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:25,250
me. 
Yeah, I have, I have a hard time

1047
00:57:25,250 --> 00:57:28,231
taking gels. 
I think, though, if you can take

1048
00:57:28,231 --> 00:57:31,580
gels, OK, it's so much easier to
store gels. 

1049
00:57:32,100 --> 00:57:36,460
So you could have six gels lined
up on you in just a naked belt 

1050
00:57:36,460 --> 00:57:39,360
or something and still have 
plenty of space to spare. 

1051
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:42,164
That's the one thing with 
fluids. 

1052
00:57:42,164 --> 00:57:47,162
But I'll go fluids. 
I will go gels because I don't 

1053
00:57:47,162 --> 00:57:50,340
have trouble taking gels and I 
don't use the fuel belts. 

1054
00:57:50,620 --> 00:57:53,691
But, like, Rabbit makes such 
great shorts with all these 

1055
00:57:53,691 --> 00:57:57,762
pockets, or pocket bras. 
So I can easily carry six gels 

1056
00:57:57,762 --> 00:58:02,032
on a long run with no problem. 
I find carrying a bottle really 

1057
00:58:02,032 --> 00:58:05,464
annoying. 
I do it, but I would prefer to 

1058
00:58:05,464 --> 00:58:07,139
carry the smallest bottle 
possible. 

1059
00:58:07,899 --> 00:58:11,812
So if I'm doing a 20-mile long 
run, I don't necessarily want to

1060
00:58:11,812 --> 00:58:15,120
carry a 20-ounce bottle just to 
get enough nutrition in where 

1061
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:18,291
I'm not carrying gels. 
But I don't mind having my 

1062
00:58:18,291 --> 00:58:21,914
pockets stuffed with gels, and I
know that they're going to get 

1063
00:58:21,914 --> 00:58:26,148
lighter as the run goes. 
So for me, definitely gels over 

1064
00:58:26,148 --> 00:58:28,931
liquids. 
Yeah, for me, I mean, I'm like, 

1065
00:58:28,931 --> 00:58:31,360
in my belt, I'll have two 
stuffed. 

1066
00:58:31,439 --> 00:58:34,409
I use one 19-ounce flask and one
17-ounce flask. 

1067
00:58:34,409 --> 00:58:36,386
Wow. 
But hey, if I'm sweating 

1068
00:58:36,386 --> 00:58:38,360
buckets, I'm getting fluids in 
too. 

1069
00:58:38,500 --> 00:58:41,011
Seriously, yeah. 
But I'm not holding them. 

1070
00:58:41,011 --> 00:58:45,820
So they're strapped on my waist.
I just like double stuff them 

1071
00:58:45,820 --> 00:58:49,460
with whatever like I'm using. 
So I used to use the super high 

1072
00:58:49,460 --> 00:58:52,071
carb mix from Skratch, but 
because I'm not training quite 

1073
00:58:52,071 --> 00:58:55,705
as hard as I used to, I just use
the regular Skratch now and then

1074
00:58:55,705 --> 00:58:58,708
I'll just like double dose it. 
So yeah, give or take, I don't 

1075
00:58:58,708 --> 00:59:00,063
know. 
What is that? 

1076
00:59:00,063 --> 00:59:03,339
Probably four ish gels worth 
across the two flasks. 

1077
00:59:03,339 --> 00:59:04,795
Yeah, for sure. 
Yep. 

1078
00:59:04,795 --> 00:59:07,423
Yeah. 
I used to use the high carb 

1079
00:59:07,423 --> 00:59:11,569
Skratch same when I was marathon
training, but now I just use the

1080
00:59:11,569 --> 00:59:14,651
regular Skratch and change the 
concentration based on what I'm 

1081
00:59:14,651 --> 00:59:19,401
doing. 
But yep, still use gels, mainly 

1082
00:59:19,401 --> 00:59:21,939
Neversecond gels, but still 
Maurten sometimes. 

1083
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:27,775
All right, we've got a couple 
more topics here. 

1084
00:59:27,775 --> 00:59:30,260
Oh, all right, a controversial 
one. 

1085
00:59:31,260 --> 00:59:33,265
Cucumber lime or watermelon 
Skratch. 

1086
00:59:33,265 --> 00:59:36,072
Cucumber lime. 
It's so hard to choose. 

1087
00:59:36,072 --> 00:59:39,280
They're both so, oh man, I don't
know. 

1088
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:45,448
I think watermelon has the most 
neutral palate across a large 

1089
00:59:45,448 --> 00:59:48,675
variety of uses. 
So you know what, I'm gonna go 

1090
00:59:48,675 --> 00:59:50,067
watermelon. 
I'm gonna change my answer. 

1091
00:59:50,067 --> 00:59:51,689
Okay. 
But I think if it's, like, 

1092
00:59:51,689 --> 00:59:54,417
post-run, or you're just hanging
out and you want, like, an 

1093
00:59:54,417 --> 00:59:55,899
electrolyte drink, the cucumber 
lime hits. 

1094
00:59:56,879 --> 00:59:58,574
So, yes, it does. 
Yeah. 

1095
00:59:58,574 --> 01:00:01,279
I think, like, I still have any 
left? 

1096
01:00:01,279 --> 01:00:02,969
I love this stuff. 
Yeah. 

1097
01:00:02,969 --> 01:00:06,573
But I think, like, if I'm out 
running, especially if I'm 

1098
01:00:06,573 --> 01:00:09,593
double concentrating it, I'm 
probably gonna go watermelon on 

1099
01:00:09,593 --> 01:00:12,174
that one. 
But yeah, that's a hard one. 

1100
01:00:12,174 --> 01:00:16,038
That's a really hard one. 
I feel like if I'm forced to 

1101
01:00:16,038 --> 01:00:20,099
choose one for all uses, I will,
I'm gonna go watermelon. 

1102
01:00:20,099 --> 01:00:23,856
But flavor-wise, I like the 
flavor of the cucumber lime 

1103
01:00:23,856 --> 01:00:26,425
more. 
Yeah, I feel, I like cucumber 

1104
01:00:26,425 --> 01:00:30,820
lime, the taste better, but I 
know this is going to sound 

1105
01:00:30,909 --> 01:00:33,450
weird, but the taste is very 
calming. 

1106
01:00:33,450 --> 01:00:38,158
So if I use it during, like, a 
hard workout, it doesn't feel 

1107
01:00:38,158 --> 01:00:42,330
right. 
So I actually don't use it if I 

1108
01:00:42,330 --> 01:00:46,730
have a hard workout. 
You ever watch, oh my gosh, Is 

1109
01:00:46,730 --> 01:00:50,800
it The Other Guys, I believe, 
with Will Ferrell and Mark 

1110
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:53,020
Wahlberg? 
No, I've seen the trailer. 

1111
01:00:53,679 --> 01:00:57,934
There's a part in that movie 
where they're both cops, and 

1112
01:00:57,934 --> 01:01:01,867
they're going into this meeting 
to shake someone down or 

1113
01:01:01,867 --> 01:01:04,566
something, some business person.
And I might be butchering this 

1114
01:01:04,566 --> 01:01:06,100
because it's been years since 
I've seen this movie. 

1115
01:01:06,639 --> 01:01:10,124
But the office that they're 
meeting with has cucumber water.

1116
01:01:10,124 --> 01:01:12,560
It's like Will Ferrell the whole
time. 

1117
01:01:12,639 --> 01:01:15,363
He's just like, the cucumber 
just accents the water in such a

1118
01:01:15,363 --> 01:01:16,719
way. 
It's just like so nice. 

1119
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:19,304
And like he's totally taking the
bait, right? 

1120
01:01:19,304 --> 01:01:22,568
Like softening him up like so 
that they're not hard on the 

1121
01:01:22,568 --> 01:01:23,936
person. 
But yeah. 

1122
01:01:23,936 --> 01:01:26,654
It's so true. 
Yeah, it is. 

1123
01:01:26,654 --> 01:01:31,179
It's very calming. 
Like I when I'm running hard, I 

1124
01:01:31,179 --> 01:01:35,369
like the more tart flavors. 
So like I would choose 

1125
01:01:35,369 --> 01:01:38,944
watermelon in that situation. 
But my go to is actually the 

1126
01:01:38,944 --> 01:01:39,919
strawberry lemonade. 
Yeah. 

1127
01:01:40,100 --> 01:01:44,610
And like are you you probably 
know this, but there's actually 

1128
01:01:44,610 --> 01:01:49,398
research about cramping. and the
fact that tasting something sour

1129
01:01:49,398 --> 01:01:53,979
is, like, actually known to 
prevent or make cramps go away. 

1130
01:01:54,780 --> 01:01:58,520
So, like, Ironman athletes carry
mustard packets with them. 

1131
01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:00,595
Yes. 
I didn't know that. 

1132
01:02:00,595 --> 01:02:02,884
Yeah. 
And same thing with pickle 

1133
01:02:02,884 --> 01:02:04,276
juice. 
There's some neurological 

1134
01:02:04,276 --> 01:02:08,597
mechanism where when your tongue
tastes that sour, it somehow, 

1135
01:02:08,597 --> 01:02:10,691
like, short circuits the cramp 
mechanism. 

1136
01:02:10,691 --> 01:02:15,428
So, I kind of, your nervous 
system is so shot from what you 

1137
01:02:15,428 --> 01:02:18,972
just ate that it's less focused 
on cramping. 

1138
01:02:18,972 --> 01:02:21,187
Yeah. 
I'm just eating mustard. 

1139
01:02:21,187 --> 01:02:28,627
We've got 20 miles left. 
There's a mechanism right there.

1140
01:02:28,627 --> 01:02:31,506
I could tell you that. 
Who needs a TENS unit? 

1141
01:02:31,506 --> 01:02:39,919
We got I'm just gonna start 
giving mustard to my patients. 

1142
01:02:39,919 --> 01:02:42,559
Mustard therapy. 
Oh, no. 

1143
01:02:42,559 --> 01:02:46,569
Oh, gosh. 
That's funny. 

1144
01:02:46,569 --> 01:02:48,634
All right. 
Well, BJ didn't expect that 

1145
01:02:48,634 --> 01:02:52,852
answer, so that was his fault 
for giving that question to us. 

1146
01:02:52,852 --> 01:02:57,422
Okay, the last question: soft 
versus firm midsoles for long 

1147
01:02:57,422 --> 01:03:06,648
runs. 
You know, I feel like we have so

1148
01:03:06,648 --> 01:03:11,295
many soft but firm shoes now 
that you kind of get the best of

1149
01:03:11,295 --> 01:03:13,139
both worlds. 
Like, I would say, like, the On 

1150
01:03:13,139 --> 01:03:15,792
Cloud Monster Hyper 3 is an 
example of that, where there's a

1151
01:03:15,792 --> 01:03:18,344
firmness, but there is a 
softness to the type of 

1152
01:03:18,344 --> 01:03:21,108
sensation you get. 
SC Rebel, I'd say that as well. 

1153
01:03:21,108 --> 01:03:24,240
Endorphin Azura, I'd say that. 
It's a hard one. 

1154
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:28,429
If I had to, like, just purely 
pick one, I probably firmer. 

1155
01:03:28,429 --> 01:03:32,608
I tend to struggle with really 
soft midsoles when it's so soft 

1156
01:03:32,608 --> 01:03:36,384
and compliant that I feel like 
I'm really just compressing it. 

1157
01:03:36,384 --> 01:03:40,898
My feet can get sensitive, and I
had history with that with the, 

1158
01:03:40,898 --> 01:03:45,688
what was it, the Brooks, what's 
their really tall one? 

1159
01:03:45,688 --> 01:03:49,908
It wasn't Hyperion Max, was it? 
Or Ghost Max? 

1160
01:03:49,908 --> 01:03:52,032
No. 
The first one that everybody 

1161
01:03:52,032 --> 01:03:56,280
loved, and I couldn't run in it 
for the life of me. 

1162
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:58,470
Yes, the Glycerin Max. 
Glycerin Max. 

1163
01:03:58,470 --> 01:04:01,070
Yeah. 
And I was like, my foot hurts 

1164
01:04:01,070 --> 01:04:05,170
every single time I run in this.
I can appreciate it, you know, 

1165
01:04:05,170 --> 01:04:09,128
the geometry is fun, and, like, 
I like it for, like, a block, 

1166
01:04:09,128 --> 01:04:12,767
and then, like, I just can't 
handle it for, like, anything 

1167
01:04:12,767 --> 01:04:14,395
longer than, like, two-ish 
miles. 

1168
01:04:14,395 --> 01:04:17,472
I couldn't handle. 
So I'm gonna have to go with the

1169
01:04:17,472 --> 01:04:20,376
firmer shoes on that one. 
Even though it can get a little 

1170
01:04:20,376 --> 01:04:23,860
bit hard across the full 
distance, I'd rather take a more

1171
01:04:23,860 --> 01:04:27,732
stable and reliable platform for
me than a really soft, cushy 

1172
01:04:27,732 --> 01:04:29,124
one. 
But that's also changing because

1173
01:04:29,124 --> 01:04:30,746
some of these foams are getting 
better. 

1174
01:04:30,746 --> 01:04:34,310
Like the new Saucony Triumph, I 
could take that out. 

1175
01:04:34,310 --> 01:04:38,260
And that's a really soft foam. 
So I don't know. 

1176
01:04:38,260 --> 01:04:41,543
But I know that traditionally I 
respond better to the firmer 

1177
01:04:41,543 --> 01:04:43,208
ones. 
So I'm going to just say the 

1178
01:04:43,208 --> 01:04:47,243
firmer ones with a couple of 
exceptions that may pop up in 

1179
01:04:47,243 --> 01:04:50,379
the softer category. 
Well, my answer is undoubtedly, 

1180
01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:53,971
I prefer firmer midsoles. 
I hate really compliant shoes, 

1181
01:04:53,971 --> 01:04:58,985
especially ones where you feel 
like you sink in and kind of get

1182
01:04:58,985 --> 01:05:01,043
stuck. 
The Superblast 3 is probably the

1183
01:05:01,043 --> 01:05:05,253
best example of that. 
I prefer a shoe where, you know,

1184
01:05:05,253 --> 01:05:08,397
I want a little bit of 
compliance, but I don't want to 

1185
01:05:08,397 --> 01:05:12,664
feel like I'm getting stuck in 
the softness of the midsole or 

1186
01:05:12,664 --> 01:05:15,989
that there's a lot of like 
medial lateral compliance. 

1187
01:05:15,989 --> 01:05:19,944
And I think, you know, that 
might be something that we can 

1188
01:05:19,944 --> 01:05:22,800
improve, how we discuss 
compliance as well, right? 

1189
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:27,280
Do we mean it's just soft when 
you land, or it's also soft as 

1190
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:31,734
you're transitioning, where you 
feel like it's not allowing you 

1191
01:05:31,734 --> 01:05:36,110
to transition from lateral to 
medial as you go from initial 

1192
01:05:36,110 --> 01:05:40,115
contact to push off? 
I just generally don't like 

1193
01:05:40,115 --> 01:05:44,999
super soft shoes in general, but
I really don't like shoes that 

1194
01:05:44,999 --> 01:05:46,879
feel unstable medially or 
laterally. 

1195
01:05:48,500 --> 01:05:50,730
Yeah, it's funny because the 
Superblast would probably fall 

1196
01:05:50,730 --> 01:05:52,212
in the exception category for 
me. 

1197
01:05:52,212 --> 01:05:54,470
Yeah. 
Yeah, however I interact with 

1198
01:05:54,470 --> 01:05:58,599
that platform, it does work. 
I mean, I took it on like a 

1199
01:05:58,599 --> 01:06:01,036
22-mile run, I think, straight 
out the box. 

1200
01:06:01,036 --> 01:06:02,860
Yeah, back when you weren't 
running. 

1201
01:06:03,540 --> 01:06:05,680
Yeah, yeah, I wasn't running. 
I remember like Mack messaging 

1202
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:08,239
me and being like, oh, how far 
are you going to go? 

1203
01:06:08,439 --> 01:06:10,344
He's like, you just got it in. 
I mean, I remember I made a call

1204
01:06:10,344 --> 01:06:11,360
with them, you know, like the 
next day. 

1205
01:06:11,439 --> 01:06:16,144
And I was like, ah, you know, 
probably somewhere between 5 and

1206
01:06:16,144 --> 01:06:19,280
15. 
I was like, I'm not really sure.

1207
01:06:20,159 --> 01:06:21,768
I'm like, because I wasn't 
really running. 

1208
01:06:21,768 --> 01:06:23,600
I'm like, I'm just going off of 
vibes. 

1209
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:26,280
And then like, vibes are going 
pretty well. 

1210
01:06:26,580 --> 01:06:31,704
And then I was like, there was 
this like, so like this big loop

1211
01:06:31,704 --> 01:06:34,482
around basically Goleta. 
I live in Santa Barbara, but 

1212
01:06:34,482 --> 01:06:39,427
Goleta is the next town over. 
And if I run up my road and I 

1213
01:06:39,427 --> 01:06:43,821
hang a left on Foothill, I can 
just take that like very, very 

1214
01:06:43,821 --> 01:06:49,272
far. 
And I wanted to see how long 

1215
01:06:49,272 --> 01:06:52,727
that loop was. 
If I took it all the way out to 

1216
01:06:52,727 --> 01:06:55,708
where it merges with the other 
main street, which would be 

1217
01:06:55,708 --> 01:06:59,795
Hollister. 
And I just brought it all the 

1218
01:06:59,795 --> 01:07:02,872
way back. 
And I even had it on a little 

1219
01:07:02,872 --> 01:07:04,523
bit. 
I was like, let's go through 

1220
01:07:04,523 --> 01:07:06,979
UCSB while we're at it. 
Let's go to the college campus. 

1221
01:07:06,979 --> 01:07:10,535
How far can we take this thing? 
My legs were very mad at me the 

1222
01:07:10,535 --> 01:07:11,459
next day. 
I bet. 

1223
01:07:11,459 --> 01:07:13,769
Actually, no, same day. 
They were still pretty mad at 

1224
01:07:13,769 --> 01:07:17,374
me. 
But yeah, that would be one of 

1225
01:07:17,374 --> 01:07:19,066
the exceptions. 
That geometry, for whatever 

1226
01:07:19,066 --> 01:07:21,040
reason, seems to work okay for 
me. 

1227
01:07:22,620 --> 01:07:24,641
That and like the Saucony 
Triumph would probably be the 

1228
01:07:24,641 --> 01:07:28,291
two that I can think of where 
like the softer foam, I'm okay 

1229
01:07:28,291 --> 01:07:29,470
with it. 
Yeah. 

1230
01:07:29,470 --> 01:07:32,221
But anecdotally, I tend to go 
firmer. 

1231
01:07:32,221 --> 01:07:34,968
Yeah. 
Yeah, and the Triumph, way too 

1232
01:07:34,968 --> 01:07:36,791
soft. 
Paramount Max. 

1233
01:07:36,791 --> 01:07:40,067
I can't do Paramount Max. 
Yeah. 

1234
01:07:40,067 --> 01:07:41,159
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

1235
01:07:42,279 --> 01:07:46,575
Well, I feel like this has been 
an exciting kind of transition 

1236
01:07:46,575 --> 01:07:52,980
year where we're seeing fewer 
EVA shoes, more TPE or 

1237
01:07:52,980 --> 01:07:57,380
supercritical foams in not just 
racing shoes, but in performance

1238
01:07:57,380 --> 01:08:01,828
trainers or even daily trainers.
So it's going to be really 

1239
01:08:01,828 --> 01:08:06,444
exciting where shoes go 2027 and
2028, because I feel like we're 

1240
01:08:06,444 --> 01:08:11,119
kind of entering, like, the 
post-initial super shoe era, and

1241
01:08:11,119 --> 01:08:16,109
now we're seeing, like, the 
second generation of all of 

1242
01:08:16,109 --> 01:08:20,005
these foams and geometries and 
companies experimenting with 

1243
01:08:20,005 --> 01:08:22,331
plate design. 
So, or even just rubbers, 

1244
01:08:22,331 --> 01:08:26,502
because, like, sure, like, that 
adds a lot of weight on a shoe. 

1245
01:08:26,502 --> 01:08:30,054
So anything they can do in terms
of still providing good traction

1246
01:08:30,054 --> 01:08:32,996
while getting the weight down, 
like, we're, we're seeing it, 

1247
01:08:32,996 --> 01:08:35,029
right? 
Like you said, all these super 

1248
01:08:35,029 --> 01:08:39,184
shoes are now coming sub six 
ounces on a lot of them, which 

1249
01:08:39,184 --> 01:08:41,768
is nuts, right? 
Like, there was nothing below 

1250
01:08:41,768 --> 01:08:44,750
that, even just, when did we go 
to Tokyo? 

1251
01:08:44,750 --> 01:08:47,783
I went to Tokyo, like, what, 
April or May? 

1252
01:08:47,783 --> 01:08:51,642
May of last year. 
And at that point, like, the 

1253
01:08:51,642 --> 01:08:55,368
Metaspeed Edge and Sky got under
six, if I remember correctly, or

1254
01:08:55,368 --> 01:08:56,609
right around six. 
Yeah. 

1255
01:08:56,609 --> 01:09:00,703
And the Metaspeed Ray was 4.5 
ounces, and that was like, holy 

1256
01:09:00,703 --> 01:09:02,071
crap. 
Yeah, you know. 

1257
01:09:02,071 --> 01:09:06,363
And then now, fast forward one 
year and four or five months 

1258
01:09:06,363 --> 01:09:09,066
later, which isn't even, like, 
that much time. 

1259
01:09:09,066 --> 01:09:11,403
Yeah. 
You've got the Hyperwarp Pure, 

1260
01:09:11,403 --> 01:09:14,245
4.9 ounces. 
You got Valkyrie Elite, 5.2 

1261
01:09:14,245 --> 01:09:17,080
ounces. 
You've got the new Adidas shoe 

1262
01:09:17,180 --> 01:09:20,526
that's, like, what, 100 grams or
whatever. 

1263
01:09:20,526 --> 01:09:24,825
Like, it's insane, like, how 
quickly things are moving. 

1264
01:09:24,825 --> 01:09:26,857
It is. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1265
01:09:26,857 --> 01:09:27,755
Wild. 
Yeah. 

1266
01:09:27,755 --> 01:09:30,898
Awesome. 
Well, this was so much fun, 

1267
01:09:30,898 --> 01:09:33,591
David. 
I always love recording with 

1268
01:09:33,591 --> 01:09:36,687
you. 
I'm excited for you to break 

1269
01:09:36,687 --> 01:09:39,332
your own course record on that 
segment. 

1270
01:09:39,332 --> 01:09:41,830
It's gotta go sub-five. 
It has to. 

1271
01:09:41,830 --> 01:09:44,572
Yeah, yeah. 
You gotta take the Pure out and 

1272
01:09:44,572 --> 01:09:46,700
do it. 
It'll go on the Pure. 

1273
01:09:46,700 --> 01:09:50,478
I feel like the Valkyrie Elite, 
so that was actually an example 

1274
01:09:50,478 --> 01:09:52,260
there. 
The foam was so soft. 

1275
01:09:52,260 --> 01:09:54,339
Yeah. 
And, like, and it's so bouncy. 

1276
01:09:54,500 --> 01:09:57,572
Like it's so responsive, but 
like if there is any little bit 

1277
01:09:57,572 --> 01:10:00,900
of instability in your step or 
like if I'm turning over and I'm

1278
01:10:00,900 --> 01:10:04,215
getting tired and I just start 
rotating a little bit or I just 

1279
01:10:04,215 --> 01:10:07,785
I start like having a little bit
of side to side movement to my 

1280
01:10:07,785 --> 01:10:10,080
steps like the shoe will respond
to that too. 

1281
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:12,304
Right. 
And I felt like I was fighting 

1282
01:10:12,304 --> 01:10:14,640
the shoe in the second half of 
that mile for sure. 

1283
01:10:16,140 --> 01:10:19,564
Also, I probably am not in 
proper shape to be going for 

1284
01:10:19,564 --> 01:10:23,559
those paces anyways. 
But I don't think that would 

1285
01:10:23,559 --> 01:10:27,624
have happened to me in the Pure.
I know that shoe. 

1286
01:10:27,624 --> 01:10:31,490
I like the foam. 
It's also a little bit lower in 

1287
01:10:31,490 --> 01:10:33,106
stack. 
Feels a little bit grounded. 

1288
01:10:33,106 --> 01:10:34,720
Like good traction, good 
forefoot stability. 

1289
01:10:34,919 --> 01:10:38,680
Like I think I would have been 
able to get that sub five on 

1290
01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:42,878
that shoe that day probably. 
So yeah, I got to go do it one 

1291
01:10:42,878 --> 01:10:45,310
of these days. 
I got to drag that out. 

1292
01:10:45,310 --> 01:10:46,120
Yeah. 
All right. 

1293
01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:47,740
Well, thank you to our 
listeners. 

1294
01:10:48,040 --> 01:10:50,984
As always, we love to hear from 
you. 

1295
01:10:50,984 --> 01:10:53,368
Send us an email, 
doctorsofrunning@gmail.com, or 

1296
01:10:53,368 --> 01:10:56,536
message us on our various social
media channels, and we'll see 

1297
01:10:56,536 --> 01:10:57,399
you next time.