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Hello everybody and welcome to 
the Doctors of Running podcast 

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where we, a group of doctors 
physical therapy, discuss the 

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art and science of running and 
the stuff that we put on our 

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feet today at the round table is
founder of Doctors Running, 

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doctor Matthew Klein. 
We also have Doctor David Salas 

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and myself I'll be hosting. 
I'm Nathan Brown and the three 

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of us today are going to be 
going through a mailbag where we

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sift through all of the emails 
we get from you all and pull out

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some of them to try to answer 
your questions. 

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And I would say more 
appropriately, we respond to 

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them in a way that we can't 
directly answer a lot of these 

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questions because many of them 
are very medically based and 

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deal with very specific 
situations, which as you 

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hopefully know at this point, we
cannot provide medical here. 

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It's way too complex. 
But we love our mailbag 

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episodes. 
It'll be fun for us to dig 

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through some of your really good
questions and they're great 

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launching pads for discussions 
on other things. 

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But before we go into the 
mailbag, we want to introduce a 

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couple things that are going on 
with us at Doctors of Running 1 

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is that we just have released 
our first merch shop. 

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So there is Doctors are running 
merch available to you all if 

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you are interested. 
And so I think the easiest way 

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to get there is just in your 
search engine, Google or type in

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Doctors are running merch. 
It'll pop. 

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First thing that'll pop up is a 
link to our website. 

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And from there you'll be able to
get to the shop to be able to 

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buy some of the stuff that we 
have. 

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What we primarily have now is 
some of our logo to apparel for 

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T-shirts and a hoodie. 
So you can check that stuff out 

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as well as obviously in homage 
to Matt Klein and talking about 

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how much, how much importance 
there is in the heel bevel of a 

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shoe. 
So there's a got heel bevel 

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shirt for y'all. 
It is important. 

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We know this. 
If you've been listening, you've

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heard it maybe 2000 times, which
is an appropriate amount. 

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Anyway, we would love for y'all 
to check it out. 

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We hope that in this kind of 
holiday season, it's a nice 

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thing that you can add to your 
list of things that you may get 

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or or think about having someone
get for you. 

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Otherwise, we also want to thank
Scratch for always powering this

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podcast. 
I know for myself I've because 

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we're supplied with this stuff 
now in a way that makes it 

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easier to have. 
I've been able to use it more 

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often on runs that I normally 
wouldn't, and I just like having

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that availability. 
Still super easy on my stomach 

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which is really nice. 
I will I will say even though 

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they are nicer to give us stuff,
I still buy a lot on my own. 

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As I've gotten older and some 
other things have occurred, I've

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really enjoyed on run nutrition 
and having a good, not the 

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highest thing. 
So like if you don't like 

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excessive carbohydrates, they 
also have the like the everyday 

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drink mix, which is awesome. 
And I've kept that in a majority

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of my even fluids, which has 
been very, very helpful 

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recently. 
It's been very good. 

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All right, So what we're going 
to do is we're going to kind of 

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jump into our mailbag episode. 
And so we have a number of 

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questions from you all. 
And just as a reminder, these 

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cannot be taken as medical 
advice, but we want to walk 

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through things. 
And our first question is from 

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Bruno. 
And Bruno is asking about plates

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and the use of plates. 
So this is what Bruno says. 

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Hello, post op hallux rigidis 
patient here. 

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So if you don't know what hallux
rigidis is, it's where they did 

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probably for him, a pinning 
through the big toe joint which 

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prevents it from moving anymore.
The doctor recommends stiff. 

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Sold with rockers as you're 
probably well aware. 

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Currently using my endorphin 
shift 3 but mostly for walking. 

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I avoid running because I 
already played tennis and the 

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doctor says that's about all I 
can take anyway. 

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Ran in the Nike Ultrafly trail 
these days. 

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Super roomy toe box and stiff 4 
foot which in theory fits the 

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prescription, but I've heard in 
many places that carbon plated 

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shoes are actually terrible for 
walking. 

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Confused on what to do Thanks. 
So I guess the question is 

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basically are carbon plated 
shoes in appropriate modality or

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appropriate option for walking 
and why or why not? 

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And why may he have he have 
heard that they're a bad idea? 

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What you got, Matt? 
I'm going to start at the end 

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there that I think carbon plated
racing shoes that are designed 

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for fast running are a poor idea
for walking. 

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They are not designed for that 
speed or those kind of that kind

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of gait. 
And talking with some people 

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recently as some companies 
going, yeah, we literally we 

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don't test those on any, but a 
lot of there are faster shoes on

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anybody but elite and sub lead 
athletes. 

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So that's that's not the 
population that's in mind. 

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Now if you move away from that, 
that niche category, the A plate

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serves to create additional 
frequently longitudinals or the 

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sometimes side to side. 
Sorry, they I'm dying. 

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They serve to create stiffness 
either longitudinally, front to 

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backside to side. 
They're at They add rigidity to 

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the sole. 
And there are lots of shoes out 

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there that are daily training 
and walking shoes that are 

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actually featuring plates now 
more than ever. 

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Glide Ride Max from ASICS has a 
plate, right. 

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I always mess that up and always
forget. 

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But it's a shoe that a lot of 
people really enjoy for not. 

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Yeah, it's it. 
A lot of people enjoy it for 

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walking. 
It was designed with a variety 

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of people in mind and those, 
some people might find that 

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great, although I personally 
like the older versions because 

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even those are playing the new 
one, it's still really flexible.

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So a lot of shoes like the 
Ultrafly from Nike, they weren't

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necessary. 
They were, but they're tested on

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a large group of people. 
Everybody from your recreational

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person who and to your faster 
trail runner, which trail 

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runners inherently are going to 
have some walking and hiking 

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involved. 
You can't have a shoe that's so 

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aggressive you can't handle 
walking because that is a normal

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part of trail running. 
It happens because there's 

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something so steep you're 
fatigued. 

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It's designed for 100 plus mile 
events. 

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So that kind of shoe is actually
going to be fine. 

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So yes, plates in certain shoes 
if they're very aggressive might

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not be appropriate, but plates 
and shoes that are designated as

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long distance run, hike or daily
trainers actually might be 

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totally fine. 
So I would make sure you're 

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picking the right category and 
knowing that a plate might be an

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additional thing that you might 
look for in that category 

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because you need additional 
stiffness. 

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But that plate needs to match 
your new mechanics. 

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Because if it's creating a 
flexes, just because there's a 

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plate doesn't mean it won't 
flex. 

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If it's creating a flex point at
the joint that you no longer 

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have use of, which we're 
assuming that might not work. 

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So make sure it feels 
comfortable. 

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Yeah, I think the only thing I'd
add to this is the old way of 

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understanding plates was that 
plates were only, or these 

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carbon plates were only utilized
for the racing shoes. 

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As Matt said, we're now plates 
are thrown in everything. 

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You know, they're just, they're 
just kind of everywhere. 

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So it's not the plate that makes
them bad for walking. 

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It's all the other geometric 
design. 

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Like think about the Vapor fly, 
super narrow platform, weird 

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rocker. 
It's got a lot going on. 

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Not not great for walking, but a
lot of these other shoes are 

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going to be just fine. 
I even think Andrea just bought 

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a pair of shoes on her own. 
I think it's Anu AHNU Anu and 

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it's. 
It's made for. 

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Walking carbon plated walking 
shoe. 

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So it's not the carbon plate 
that's the problem. 

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It's the other stuff that just 
isn't appropriate. 

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I think what also for you, 
Bruno, to consider is what does 

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the plate have in terms of the 
geometry, not from a rocker 

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perspective, which is fine, but 
it's from the toe spring 

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perspective because if there is 
toe spring and a carbon plate, 

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it's just going to hold you in 
the extension that you don't 

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have. 
That's where you might have 

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issues where the shoe that you 
said the the Ultrafly isn't 

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super high toe spring, but some 
other carbon plated shoes are. 

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So that's the only other 
consideration I would make. 

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David, do you have anything? 
No, I think you guys hit pretty 

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much all of it. 
I was going to bring up Anu. 

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And then the other one is the 
Hoka Transport X that's also 

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carbon plated. 
That's meant to kind of be a 

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walking slash, kind of run it 
like a little bit of an 

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everything shoe. 
But it's definitely trying to 

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hit that kind of walking 
category and translate into some

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lifestyle wear. 
So there's definitely shoes out 

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there that are plated, yeah, 
that you don't have to 

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necessarily run in and can be 
good for walking and standing as

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well. 
But you guys hit it, I think 

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mainly looking at the geometric 
changes in the shoe, how that 

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works with standing and walking 
versus running fast are two very

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different things. 
So looking at how that impacts 

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how you stand, walk, move, and 
then as everything uppers and 

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how well it holds your foot to 
the platform because those 

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racing shoes don't always have 
the most stable platforms and 

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numbers compared to training 
shoes. 

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So yeah. 
Perfect. 

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Well, let's move on to our next 
question. 

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And this is from Nathan, not me.
Other some other Nathan that I 

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don't know, asks about some. 
Yeah, Matt, what you got? 

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Totally. 
Totally off topic and but just 

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cuz you said that we have some 
Nathan apparel that we're lucky 

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enough, I think that's actually 
because of you that actually got

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those hooked up. 
And so every time I it wasn't 

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every time I wear it, I'm just 
like, oh, look, it's Nathan's 

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company. 
It's not actually, but that's 

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just it's. 
I wore one of my Nathan like 

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shirts the other day and some 
students were like, did you get 

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personalized stuff? 
And I'm like, no, this is a 

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brand. 
I shouldn't wear this to work 

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you. 
Definitely should. 

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All right, well this other 
Nathan is asking about his knees

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and I'm going to read their 
whole message here, so just bear

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with me. 
It says, Dear talks of running. 

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I love all your content and I'm 
so thankful for all you do for 

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the running community. 
I have really flat feet and 

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obviously need stability shoes 
and my knees are not great, 

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which adds to the problem of 
finding the best shoes. 

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Two of the most comfortable 
shoes I put on my feet are the 

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Saucony Guide 17 and the Saucony
Hurricane 24. 

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Both work perfectly for my feet.
However, both options might be 

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terrible for my knees based on 
what I've read offline or 

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online. 
And I don't know what I can 

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trust online. 
However, after watching so much 

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of your contact, I trust 
content. 

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I trust what you say. 
Please help me Doctors of 

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running. 
The guide 17 is a rocker style 

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shoe which helps the feet but 
I've read it can put extra 

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stress on the knees. 
Is that correct that the rocker 

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style are good for feet but bad 
for knees? 

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I've had the same concern with 
the Hurricane 24. 

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It's extremely cushioned which 
can help foot issues, but I've 

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read it can make your knees have
to work harder. 

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Is this correct that extremely 
cushioned shoes are good for 

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feet but bad for knees? 
Lastly, what about heel toe 

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drop? 
I've read that the lower the 

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drop the better it is for the 
knees. 

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Is that correct? 
Also what it was the best drop 

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for bad knees? 
I look forward to your response,

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thanks for all you do. 
So I think there's a lot to 

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unpack here. 
A lot of them are asking how 

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does shoe design impact the 
knee? 

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Can I respond first for for a 
second here? 

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OK. 
I think to my other Nathan 

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friend, I think that the first 
thing I would say is there's a 

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lot of kind of dichotomous 
language in your question, which

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just gives me insight to how 
you're thinking about how shoes 

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and your body are kind of 
interacting where you're by that

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I mean you're using good, bad, 
where something is good for one 

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and bad for another. 
And I think that that's not 

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necessarily true. 
I think it's how does shoe 

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design change demand on the 
knee? 

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And then I think the further 
thing is demand on the knee 

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00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,280
being higher or lower, it 
doesn't necessarily mean it's 

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00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:23,320
bad as long as what you've got 
going on with your knees is we 

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00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,200
can tolerate the load that's 
shifted. 

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00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,680
So that's just globally. 
My first thing to say is I think

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00:11:28,680 --> 00:11:31,600
that there are some ways that we
could reframe some of these 

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00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,680
questions over time and kind of 
some of the assumptions too 

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00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:40,480
about how shoes interplay with 
flat feet, interplay with knees,

235
00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:42,920
all that kind of stuff. 
So that's just my first global 

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00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,880
observation where I think you 
could give yourself more credit,

237
00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,800
Nathan in that your body could 
maybe tolerate a little bit more

238
00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:53,560
then kind of this, either it's 
good or bad, maybe there's a 

239
00:11:53,560 --> 00:11:55,320
little bit of nuance in the 
middle. 

240
00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,680
So that's where I'll stop for 
now and I'll jump back in later.

241
00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,320
Go ahead, Matt. 
So I would say, Nathan, to 

242
00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,160
address some of your concerns, 
comfort is one of the best 

243
00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,240
predictors of whether a shoe is 
going to work for you. 

244
00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,360
So when you put the Guide 17 or 
the Hurricane 24 on, you know, 

245
00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,600
when you're putting a shoe on, 
don't just pay attention to your

246
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:14,840
foot. 
Go how does your knee feel? 

247
00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,280
And if you're like, yeah, this 
is feeling great, I'm not having

248
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,680
an issue, then I honestly would 
pick the shoe that's most 

249
00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:21,120
comfortable and feels like it's 
working. 

250
00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,000
And both there's a really, 
really great options. 

251
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,160
Be aware that just because you 
have flat feet does not 

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00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:27,880
necessarily mean you need 
stability. 

253
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,640
But if you're finding like, 
yeah, these stability models are

254
00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,400
actually super comfortable and 
they're feeling good, then I 

255
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,840
would not overthink this because
you can definitely get in the 

256
00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,760
weeds with this stuff. 
But when you get above them, it 

257
00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,560
really comes down because people
are so different that it really 

258
00:12:42,560 --> 00:12:45,480
comes down to like what's going 
to work best for you as an 

259
00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,560
individual. 
So if you found that stability 

260
00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:50,160
issues work for you, awesome 
that that might be a category 

261
00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,760
that's going to do well for you.
There are other things that 

262
00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:56,120
might work, stable, neutral, 
other kind of things that might 

263
00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,200
give you a little bit more 
stable platform without 

264
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,000
necessarily being in the 
stability category. 

265
00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,440
But comfort is going to be the 
biggest thing. 

266
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,400
And I think the guide in the 
hurricane are really good tried 

267
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,520
and true models. 
And Nathan, our Nathan picked 

268
00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,880
this up really well that there's
a lot of nuances and it's not as

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00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,600
dichotomous as, you know, 
sometimes the Internet makes it 

270
00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,400
seem that there's a lot of 
nuance that you can have. 

271
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,160
For example, one of the things 
you mentioned like hey drop, we 

272
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:27,880
know that typically a higher 
drop can put a little bit more 

273
00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:32,240
stress or force into the knee 
joint just because ankle might 

274
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,680
not be doing as much as you're 
in a little more plantar flexor 

275
00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:36,320
pointed foot position as you 
land. 

276
00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:38,880
And so you're going to get your 
knee going to need to shock 

277
00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:40,320
absorb more at your knee and 
hip. 

278
00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,800
That's not necessarily bad. 
It just means forces are going 

279
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:45,960
to go there. 
If you can handle that, you 

280
00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,960
know, that might be good. 
You know, some people will find 

281
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,120
with a higher drop shoe, believe
it or not, that they actually 

282
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,760
have less knee pain. 
Some people will find with a 

283
00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,040
lower drop shoe, which typically
takes force away from the knee 

284
00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:58,760
and and has to be more absorbed 
by the ankle. 

285
00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,440
There's other people who will 
find a lower drop shoe actually 

286
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,600
reduces their knee pain. 
So you have to figure out what's

287
00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,440
actually driving your symptoms 
and saying you have a bad knee. 

288
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,240
And fortunately doesn't give us 
enough information. 

289
00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,880
That's a very general term. 
We don't know what that means. 

290
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,480
And you may not know either, 
which is OK, There's no 

291
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:20,240
judgement, but know that yes, 
rockers change forces typically 

292
00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,200
up a little bit higher. 
The hurricane doesn't have as 

293
00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,680
aggressive as a rocker or the 
guide has a little bit more. 

294
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,720
But it's not something that I 
would freak out if I would be 

295
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,400
nervous about. 
You know, lower both the shoes 

296
00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:34,880
have a little lower heel drop, 
so that might put a little more 

297
00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,800
pressure in your ankle. 
And cushioning honestly isn't 

298
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,880
necessarily joint specific. 
It's typically more like the 

299
00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,560
whole chain, not necessarily one
joint. 

300
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:48,360
So I'd say to finally come to a 
close, pay attention to comfort 

301
00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,200
and pay attention to how your 
knee feels and it feels good. 

302
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:55,160
I would go run and enjoy. 
Yeah, I agree completely. 

303
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,240
I mean, I would look at it more 
from the comfort standpoint and 

304
00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:00,400
what works for your foot. 
If you know you already like 

305
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,720
something and it's working, 
don't change it. 

306
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,400
There's not really any need to 
if you really want to get into 

307
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,520
the weeds like Matt was saying, 
like it left you look at a heel 

308
00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,240
to toe drop that it's almost 
like you're standing on a little

309
00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:14,600
slant board. 
Let's say you're in like a 

310
00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,440
Mizuno wave, right? 
Or into 12mm versus, you know, 

311
00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,800
an ultra at 0. 
Like you will have a slight 

312
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,720
impact that way where you're 
kind of getting pitched forward,

313
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:24,640
but it doesn't translate 
immediately. 

314
00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,000
That's one component of a shoe 
that has many components. 

315
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,480
And so let's say you take a low 
drop and now you're in a zero or

316
00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:38,880
you're in a more minimal ultra 
versus one of the higher stack, 

317
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,880
but it's a low drop, but it's a 
highly rockered platform that 

318
00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,040
changes the way that that shoe 
interacts with your foot as 

319
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,000
well. 
And so any yeah. 

320
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:55,960
And so stack height, heel to toe
drop stable, not stable, you 

321
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,400
know, neutral, whatever. 
Like all these things create a 

322
00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,560
blend and an experience for the 
run and your bio mechanics. 

323
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,560
So I wouldn't look at it as 
like, I think I feel like we're 

324
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,120
compartmentalizing these a 
little too much and just focus 

325
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:09,320
on the experience you get on 
foot. 

326
00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,520
That would be essentially what I
would take home with this. 

327
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:18,720
I totally agree with y'all. 
I think when you go back and try

328
00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,160
on these shoes and you're 
finding them that they work for 

329
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,000
you, especially if you're in a 
position where you're you're 

330
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:25,320
running in the guide in the 
hurricane. 

331
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:27,360
They feel great both for your 
feet and knees. 

332
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,000
And just you're having that 
concern of like, oh, could this 

333
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,960
be bad for my knees? 
I would say no, if that's if 

334
00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,600
it's not that you're running in 
this and your knees really bug 

335
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:37,360
you only when you put this shoe 
on. 

336
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,600
I would just kind of take what 
you've read online. 

337
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,000
And I would say even if the 
literature show that there's 

338
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,920
increased stress in the knee or 
something like that, ultimate, 

339
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,400
you're just learning that your 
body can tolerate whatever that 

340
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:50,640
shoe is putting through your 
knee. 

341
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,200
So I agree with Matt David and 
just kind of go based off of 

342
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,240
comfort and let it ride. 
What you said about how load 

343
00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,960
shifts is true. 
Increased rocker might shift 

344
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,240
load up to the hip or the knee. 
Increased stack height may shift

345
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,400
or sorry drop would shift load 
up to the hip and the knee. 

346
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,680
Those things can happen. 
And then with with cushioning, 

347
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,960
when you have a highly cushioned
shoe, you have overall limb 

348
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,440
stiffness, which for knee from a
knee perspective could be good 

349
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,520
or bad. 
It could be good because it 

350
00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,640
increases your running economy, 
which is left less energy 

351
00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:27,760
absorption through the knee 
because you have less 

352
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,120
excursions, there's less work 
done at that joint. 

353
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,040
Or it could be worse because 
there's slightly higher impact. 

354
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,320
So it depends on what bothers 
the knee or not. 

355
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:40,160
But I agree, I would go based 
off of comfort, go based of what

356
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,560
feels good. 
I'd also say with the guide to 

357
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,640
if you're just worried about 
this rocker, the guide is 

358
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,480
flexible enough where it's not 
really, it's not really really a

359
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,080
rocker platform. 
Like there's enough flexibility 

360
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:56,840
where it's it's going to allow 
you to use that 4 foot rocker in

361
00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:58,640
there. 
Anything to add? 

362
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:05,640
No, All right, we're going into 
our next question from 

363
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:07,320
Christina. 
They asked on Instagram, what 

364
00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,880
are your opinions on 
intentionally cutting holes and 

365
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,080
running shoes the upper or like 
the the liner to customize them 

366
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,160
to your foot? 
Are there specific places where 

367
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,440
it's totally fine to cut a hole 
or where you really don't want 

368
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:21,640
to cut? 
What issues could potentially, 

369
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,560
or sorry, what issues could be 
potentially remedied by cutting 

370
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:28,640
a hole in your shoe? 
Perhaps like cutting the top of 

371
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,120
the heel to remove pressure from
the Achilles? 

372
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,240
So what? 
What are your thoughts on 

373
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,120
cutting holes in uppers or 
liners? 

374
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:40,480
OK, has anyone else done this? 
Yes, yes, I have. 

375
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:41,560
Good. 
OK, I'm not. 

376
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,000
I'm not the only one that makes 
me feel good. 

377
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:43,520
OK. 
What? 

378
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:45,520
Were you going to say David? 
Somebody else go for it. 

379
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:51,000
I have I I tore apart shoes when
I was in college and early PT 

380
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,840
school, modifying them in all 
kinds of ways. 

381
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,400
Sometimes they work, sometimes I
just wrecked the shoe 

382
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:57,680
permanently and couldn't return 
it. 

383
00:18:57,680 --> 00:18:59,800
So I want somebody else to go 
first before I. 

384
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,800
Yeah, I mean, I don't think 
there's anything inherently bad 

385
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,480
with making small modifications.
I know some people who have 

386
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,760
issues with swelling might put 
like little slits in the sides 

387
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,200
of the upper sometimes, or 
they'll cut out little things in

388
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,520
the insole to give him a little 
bit more room, let's say, for 

389
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,880
the great toe or for some of the
other areas. 

390
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,000
I think small modifications like
that, as long as the integrity 

391
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,440
of the shoe, you know, maintains
its integrity, like, I think 

392
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,840
you're pretty good. 
And it seems pretty like a 

393
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,560
pretty innocent modification to 
make If you're like 

394
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,080
Frankensteining the whole thing 
and the thing's barely holding 

395
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:34,760
itself together. 
Maybe not. 

396
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,680
You know, I think you just got 
to ask yourself kind of a 

397
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,800
platform integrity and a safety 
question, you know, as to what 

398
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,320
actual modifications you're 
making on the shoe. 

399
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,640
Myself, we kind of used to 
always joke that I kind of had 

400
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,400
this Unicorn foot and everything
always seemed to work for me. 

401
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:53,880
I've never made a modification 
to a shoe. 

402
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:58,520
I've never had to, you know, so 
I, I don't know, I, I, I can't 

403
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:02,080
like fully speak to that on an 
anecdotally like. 

404
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,000
From personal experience, I 
think the most I've ever done is

405
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,800
maybe change a sock liner from 1
shoe to another. 

406
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:14,200
I think that's all I've ever 
made a modification on a shoe or

407
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,440
did a or change the lacing up 
just a little bit. 

408
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,240
But that's again that's not 
changing the shoe itself. 

409
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,880
So. 
Yeah, I've, I've done a couple 

410
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,880
and I've also helped patients 
make some modifications to their

411
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:26,840
shoes as well. 
So the ones I've done for myself

412
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:28,760
have included cutting like sock 
liner stuff. 

413
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,640
So when I was having my foot 
stuff, I cut areas to relieve 

414
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,000
pressure from the bottom of the 
foot. 

415
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,400
In the same way when I've had 
people who've had Morton's 

416
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,800
Neuroma, I've cut offloading 
spots within the area that 

417
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:42,640
they're having kind of that 
pressure sensation. 

418
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,680
So I've done small cutouts of 
sock liners. 

419
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,960
I think as long as you're not 
when I put it on, it should feel

420
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,040
fine or when patients put on it 
should feel fine. 

421
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,920
If it feels like this is awful, 
Nope, that's not the right 

422
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,240
modification. 
The other thing that I've had 

423
00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,600
seen patients do, I haven't done
this myself. 

424
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,000
Matt, you could talk about what 
you've done a little bit more, 

425
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:06,640
but cutting parts of the toe box
just widen up kind of that that 

426
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,320
neck of the into the toe box or 
that distal part for like the 

427
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,800
big toe or the little toe, 
depending on what side there was

428
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,520
a little bit of pressure. 
I think my only consideration 

429
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,800
for any sort of cutting of the 
upper is like if you completely 

430
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,040
get rid of the security of the 
upper or you cut it in a way 

431
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,280
that's going to take your 
durability and justice, put it 

432
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,000
in the toilet, then is it worth 
it? 

433
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,040
And if it was a foreseeable 
thing or it's like, oh, I love 

434
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:32,120
this shoe. 
I'm just going to cut it. 

435
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:35,880
Maybe you just get a different 
shoe, But I'm guessing what 

436
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,040
happens is, you know, you get 
like 3 weeks into using this 

437
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,600
shoe and then you're like, this 
kind of bothers me. 

438
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,200
And then you, you make a little 
cut. 

439
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:44,800
So, Matt, what have you done and
what do you? 

440
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,640
Think what have I not done is 
kind of a better question. 

441
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:52,880
So in PT school, I did a less 
fancy version of what Golden 

442
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,880
Harper did with his shoes, where
he was smart enough to put him 

443
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,880
in a microwave and warm up so we
could take this off. 

444
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,760
I just took a buzz saw to a Nike
Pegasus and made it a zero drop 

445
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,200
shoe, and it kind of worked. 
It's accepted. 

446
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,880
Yeah, accepted was like question
angle. 

447
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,120
So accidentally turned it into a
wet shoe and gave myself some 

448
00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:17,120
really bad like Peroneus. 
Longest issues I have taken. 

449
00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:21,600
I have cut and pulled out a heel
counter before out of the ASICS.

450
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,720
One of the original hyper speeds
with shoes that were bugging my 

451
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,200
Achilles. 
I would take the the like heel 

452
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,760
part of like the Achilles tab 
but I'd slice it in half. 

453
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,000
I have cut out chunks of the 
upper that were put like pushing

454
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,560
on my feet. 
I've done the like making like 

455
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,280
small slits. 
Try to increase the volume the 

456
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,000
for patients I go to town on 
insoles, I will cut them up. 

457
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,240
I will add things. 
There's some really awesome like

458
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,760
like pads you can get that like 
metatarsal lifts and things like

459
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:52,480
that. 
You can make super easy 

460
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,840
modifications to insoles or cuts
cut part out to adjust for like 

461
00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,400
varus and valgus position. 
So I do this stuff all the time.

462
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,240
I just make sure I have a stock 
insole that I give them so they 

463
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,360
can try it first before they do 
it the real one because David 

464
00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:07,760
Nathan hits on the head. 
If you're going to do this 

465
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,840
stuff, you got to make sure you 
do not compromise the integrity 

466
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,760
of the shoe or the upper. 
So that's where you can run into

467
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:16,080
trouble. 
And by the way, once you do 

468
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,360
this, you're not going to get 
return this shoe like don't 

469
00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:20,680
don't be that person because 
they're going to be like what's 

470
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,040
wrong? 
Which I definitely tried to do 

471
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,200
it and got this interesting note
back from a not running 

472
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,400
warehouse but a certain company 
going what the hell did you do 

473
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,080
to this? 
And I was like, it just wasn't 

474
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:32,920
working. 
This is not returnable. 

475
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,760
They did not refund me, which 
they had every right to not do 

476
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,480
so did you? 
Did you? 

477
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,960
Expect to get refunded like 
really like this is their but 

478
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:42,920
their to. 
Be fair, this is like college. 

479
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,000
This is like like Matt 2021 
years old. 

480
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,680
So I don't think my frontal lobe
was working that well, but I was

481
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,920
thinking, I was hoping. 
So yes, there are things that 

482
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,280
you can do. 
I would always encourage you to 

483
00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:00,000
do less as more and practice on.
Also, please tell me it was the 

484
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,240
Pegasus that you tried to return
after bringing a book. 

485
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,480
No, no, it wasn't. 
It was a different it was a 

486
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,040
different shoe that I'd I'd 
tried to cut the shoe out of and

487
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,280
I was like it was did not that 
fell apart and I was like, maybe

488
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,160
I can know the peg was nice 
because I got that for free and 

489
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,920
I was like, well, it's free. 
I'm going to you know, the heels

490
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:19,160
too high. 
I like everything else about 

491
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:20,040
this shoe. 
Let me just one. 

492
00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:23,000
Of the heel counter shoes where 
you like went physically removed

493
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,480
a heel counter and then sent it 
back and was like, hey, I don't 

494
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,800
know what happened here. 
Yeah, that didn't. 

495
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:30,520
Did you, Was that in your 
minimalist phase? 

496
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,400
The the yeah. 
A lot of that, yes, that was in 

497
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,760
the minimal phase and then as my
at one point in PT school, my 

498
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,560
Hagglund the formerly got really
irritated then I would be then 

499
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,440
my Achilles was irritated. 
I would cut the back just a 

500
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,680
little bit, not too much just so
it could split because a lot of 

501
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,440
companies that that time moved 
away from the split Achilles 

502
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:52,840
tab. 
So it would really irritate 

503
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,040
because it was just the rounded 
one that would dig in there. 

504
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,280
And so it was an easy thing that
I could do very minimally and 

505
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,400
create my own split heel tab. 
So yes, you can do this stuff. 

506
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,600
Just I would encourage you to 
practice on old shoes that you 

507
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,360
don't need, just to make sure 
you master this and think less 

508
00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:12,000
is more. 
But never compromise the 

509
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:13,840
integrity of the upper because 
then you're going to start 

510
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,680
getting blisters. 
Things are going to start 

511
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,080
sliding around or it's going to 
compromise the shoe. 

512
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,200
So I would say just this can be 
done. 

513
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,120
Be careful. 
There are some brilliant shoe 

514
00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:26,560
Cobblers out there that are 
amazing who I've gotten a couple

515
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,800
of that I've met throughout the 
years who do this really well 

516
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,400
professionally. 
So that actually might be the 

517
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,840
people to contact if you 
absolutely love a shoe but need 

518
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:36,960
something modified. 
Those those individuals are 

519
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,040
geniuses and they can do it 
without compromising the 

520
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:41,720
integrity of the shoe. 
All right. 

521
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,760
So before we move on to our next
question, I have a off script 

522
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,680
question for you all. 
So it is December 1st when we're

523
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,280
recording this. 
So we just got this is the end 

524
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:55,960
of Thanksgiving weekend. 
Our family does what some people

525
00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,200
might call the very traditional 
meal like Turkey, mashed 

526
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,080
potatoes, stuffing, gravy, 
etcetera etcetera. 

527
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,560
Is that what y'all do? 
1st is my first question. 

528
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,560
Yeah. 
To some extent, OK, if you have 

529
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,480
at least some familiarity with 
that of that, what is one thing 

530
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,080
that you think could be 
completely removed forever and 

531
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,680
not be missed for you? 
For me, oh, easy. 

532
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:27,000
Two things, any kind of like 
mushed up like yams or like 

533
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,920
cranberry juice. 
I I can't do those textures like

534
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,560
cranberry sauce. 
Yeah, I have a hard time with 

535
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,160
those Yeah, I don't know, I I 
just, I have a hard time with 

536
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,240
those. 
Give me all the green bean 

537
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:44,600
casserole stuffing, Turkey, 
gravy, biscuits, potatoes, give 

538
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,200
me all of it. 
But those I, I, I try every year

539
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,920
I try, you know, because some, 
it's always like you get the 

540
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,120
whole plate, someone serves it, 
you know, and then it's like, 

541
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:54,800
I'm trying to be polite and be 
nice. 

542
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,760
But every, every year, yeah, 
the. 

543
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:00,440
Cranberries. 
I think it's the cranberry 

544
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:01,480
sauce. 
You get rid of it. 

545
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,080
Cranberries. 
That's wild. 

546
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,480
Probably the cranberries before 
the yams and then the yams after

547
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,520
that. 
Wow, Matt. 

548
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:09,800
Well. 
I think this is going to cause 

549
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:11,520
like permanent divide between 
dog. 

550
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:12,280
And. 
Right. 

551
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:15,480
Putting in my resignation, all 
right. 

552
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,080
This is also going to make a lot
of people hate me, but I also 

553
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,600
don't like gravy and I, I really
haven't. 

554
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,800
So I, I, I understand it's a 
staple. 

555
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,280
It's just something that if I 
had it, I just, I just wouldn't 

556
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,120
need it. 
The other thing, I have to admit

557
00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:35,920
that I am very spoiled that my 
mom has made this like cranberry

558
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:37,440
sauce. 
It's like this mix of 

559
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,760
cranberries, oranges, all this 
stuff that has been awesome to 

560
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:45,720
put on Turkey and the cranberry 
like gel, whatever that is from 

561
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,920
the can. 
I think it's gross. 

562
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,160
Yeah. 
So that is what I would get rid 

563
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,960
of. 
You guys the correct answer. 

564
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,320
Is so you just like stupid all? 
Needs to be there. 

565
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,360
No, we make our own. 
I didn't make our own sauce. 

566
00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:00,640
That's a trick. 
See, that's different. 

567
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,040
Like making your own is 
completely different. 

568
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:04,600
Just. 
Do you know how families make 

569
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,360
their own? 
I think it's this pretty split 

570
00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:08,560
thing. 
I think a lot of people like the

571
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,200
canned stuff. 
We we do like we we boil down a 

572
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,400
cranberry sauce with like some 
other stuff within it. 

573
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,840
It sounds like very similar to 
what Matt gets, which is a very 

574
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,160
different experience than like 
the cut up kind of canned 

575
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,280
cranberry. 
And that's more my experience. 

576
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:23,640
I'm not judging. 
Yeah, yeah. 

577
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,280
I just the correct. 
When this comes out on YouTube, 

578
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:27,920
we're going to lose like half of
our subscribers. 

579
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:29,480
As I said, the correct answer 
is. 

580
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,280
Some bougie cranberry sauce. 
More. 

581
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,600
Required. 
It's almost as bougie as pesto 

582
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:41,440
pizza for your very basic pizza.
I don't sound like a Sabbath. 

583
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,040
I felt so validated when 
somebody commented. 

584
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,440
If you were talking, we're 
referring back to like couple 

585
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,200
podcast episodes earlier. 
I almost commented about the 

586
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:55,280
skimboarding we were talking. 
But somebody validated me by 

587
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,520
saying like, of course somebody 
in Socal is talking about pesto 

588
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,200
pizza being like the most basic 
pizza you can think of. 

589
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,200
It was amazing. 
But we're going to move forward.

590
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:06,680
Thank you for indulging me and 
I. 

591
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,400
Didn't know that you could say 
nothing. 

592
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:09,680
Hey. 
Try ask the question. 

593
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:11,080
That's baiting. 
Us and I didn't. 

594
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,680
I was baiting you, so let's move
forward. 

595
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,240
Darth Mate. 
We got we have another question 

596
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,680
from Paul. 
Paul's asking about trail shoes 

597
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:26,520
and he says I have a 80 kit 80K 
ultra coming up in February and 

598
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,720
I'm wanting to get some opinions
and some options for trail shoes

599
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:31,120
which offer a more cushioned 
ride. 

600
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,400
The event where I'm doing is 
very mountainous terrain and 

601
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,480
predominantly rocky and very 
hard but very well groomed as 

602
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,680
it's a popular mountain biking 
route so they don't have to be 

603
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,560
super technical. 
I've done the event before and 

604
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,560
the last time the shoes excuse 
me I wore where the Solomon 

605
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,680
Supercross were more technical 
and grippy but not very 

606
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,680
cushioned so by the end the feet
were very sore from fatigue. 

607
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,880
I've run in Hokas and Brooks a 
lot in the past so I know I like

608
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,120
those but I'm not averse to 
other brands. 

609
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,200
I also use orthotics to cure 
some of my mild over pronation 

610
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,360
and flat feet, so shoes which 
are friendly to orthotics would 

611
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,120
be great. 
I was originally thinking Hoka 

612
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,520
speed goats. 
I currently own some older model

613
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,200
Challenger Fives but not sure 
about the Brooks line, maybe the

614
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,600
Calderas? 
How do the Hoka Challengers 

615
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,360
compare to the Speed goats 
cushion wise? 

616
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,160
Or is there anything else you'd 
recommend? 

617
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,760
I also live in New Zealand and 
it can be difficult to get 

618
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:23,520
certain models from other 
brands. 

619
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,520
Thanks. 
Yeah, I mean, 80 K is a long way

620
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,280
to go. 
You know, the one of the 

621
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,280
Calderas? 
I was thinking the Catamount one

622
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,000
night when you said Caldera. 
So actually, yes, my my brain 

623
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,120
was thinking the wrong shoe. 
Caldera's probably fine. 

624
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,080
Yeah, they're really high 
stacked one which they. 

625
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,360
Have the divide as well. 
Wait, but no, Caldera is higher 

626
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,880
device, isn't it? 
It's their longest running trail

627
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,120
shoe. 
The cascade caldera is. 

628
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,200
Higher than that, yes. 
Thank you. 

629
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:57,720
I just couldn't remember 
Cascadia. 

630
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,080
I'm thinking Caldera too. 
Yes, but and but I will say 

631
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,560
Cascadia is very well known and 
somebody correct me if I'm 

632
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,960
wrong, that the Cascadia 
actually takes orthotics. 

633
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,800
No, it does. 
I was going to say Cascadia and 

634
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,400
Speed Goat where where I was 
going with that. 

635
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,200
But yeah, I think they're, if 
you already know, you like those

636
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,200
companies, they have solid trail
models, especially for longer 

637
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,640
distance stuff. 
You know, 80 K is an odd race 

638
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,520
distance. 
I'm not sure I've heard of an 80

639
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:31,240
Ki mean 60 K, 100K, sixty mile. 
I don't know, I've never heard 

640
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,040
80 Ki. 
Think the Caldera was the one 

641
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,280
that popped into my head first 
from Brooks. 

642
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,800
That's kind of the highest 
stack, very cushioned, a little 

643
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,480
bit of a rocker ride, definitely
on the heavier end and more of 

644
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:47,240
like a kind of plot along sort 
of of runner, but very nice. 

645
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,160
I think it I think it's a pretty
nice shoe. 

646
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,600
I think the other one that 
popped into my head from a 

647
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,600
highly cushioned standpoint are 
going to be more of you got to 

648
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,560
figure out what type of 
cushioning you like because the 

649
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,120
speed Goat is great. 
I love the speed Goat it is. 

650
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,520
It does have a lot of foam 
underneath, but it is firmer, 

651
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,480
like it's a firmer high amount 
of cushioning. 

652
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,280
And if you want, if you like 
Hoka, but you want something 

653
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,880
that's a softer cushion, the 
Tectonex 3. 

654
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,240
And even if you check out the 
Tectonex 2, that's going to have

655
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,160
a very significantly different, 
especially the three. 

656
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,600
The three is a new foam compound
that they have in there much 

657
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,920
softer cushioning in comparison 
to what you're getting with the 

658
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,280
speed GOAT. 
So I don't know how well it 

659
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,400
would take an orthotic per SE, 
but it might be worth checking 

660
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,560
out, especially if you can. 
I think that there's it's just a

661
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,520
lot softer in comparison to what
you get with the speed GOAT. 

662
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,200
The other company that I would 
recommend maybe considering is 

663
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,480
Saucony. 
They have a number of cushioned 

664
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,720
trail shoes. 
Two of them that come into my 

665
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,200
mind are the Endorphin Edge. 
So that's going to be their kind

666
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,600
of Peeba based foam, so really 
highly cushioned with a carbon 

667
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,680
plate in it. 
And then the other one that 

668
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,960
comes into my shoes, the Exodus 
Ultra, very highly cushioned. 

669
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:00,920
It's got kind of a core of 
Peeba. 

670
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,760
And I think that that one from 
my experience running in the 

671
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,880
winter is pretty cushioned. 
I see that Matt clearly 

672
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,800
disagrees with me on that one. 
But I think that those two, in 

673
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,440
my opinion, are the higher 
cushioned shoes from Saucony's 

674
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,600
line. 
The only thing I would disagree 

675
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,480
with because I'm writing a 
review of the Exodus 3 Ultra 3 

676
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:19,760
right now and I found it to be 
incredibly firm. 

677
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,600
However, I think it will 
actually take an orthotic really

678
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,240
really well. 
It does have that power on PB. 

679
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,200
It does not have a plate so you 
don't have to worry about those 

680
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,000
interacting. 
What's the other non plated PBA 

681
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,240
foamed socketty? 
The Rift. 

682
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,920
It's not the edge. 
The Rift Rift also might be a 

683
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,280
really really. 
That's my opinion, but that's my

684
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,400
opinion. 
That escalated so quickly. 

685
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,520
If you want another non company 
who want the New Balance hero is

686
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,200
pretty good too. 
And it's got a little bit of 

687
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,360
volume and space to it as well. 
So that's that's a pretty solid.

688
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:57,240
Option no no, you keep. 
Going talk about the Rift and 

689
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,720
what you think about it, it 
could be a good option. 

690
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,360
I'd love the shoe. 
I liked the underground foot 

691
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,360
foot feel more, but go ahead. 
I loved it a lot more than the 

692
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,120
edge because I found like the 
edge wasn't that stable and then

693
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,239
the Rift kind of gave me what I 
was looking for. 

694
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,080
Plus the flexibility I feel like
would take an orthotic better 

695
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,320
and the insole is a little bit 
thicker in the Rift compared to 

696
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:19,760
the edge. 
Although when when are we going 

697
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,360
to have an are we going to have 
an edge too? 

698
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:22,760
Is that going? 
To I don't know, they haven't 

699
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:23,960
really. 
The only thing they've been 

700
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,679
updating is the peregrine. 
That's like the only thing that 

701
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:29,920
I've been seeing them update. 
So I don't know if I know that 

702
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,679
they have been extending their 
kind of production times in a in

703
00:34:34,679 --> 00:34:37,760
a purposeful way of like making 
sure that their updates are real

704
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:39,800
updates and not just changing 
the upper. 

705
00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:44,719
So that could be part of it. 
So 100% agree with you 2, I 

706
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,840
think Cascadia Caldera from 
Brooks is great. 

707
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,199
Brooks is just a company that 
typically does experiment and a 

708
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,239
lot of their shoes do work 
really well with orthotics. 

709
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,040
So that's something you need. 
I think that's a really, really 

710
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:56,719
good option. 
I wouldn't do the Catamount 

711
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,040
because it's much more minimal 
and I don't there is a plate in 

712
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:01,400
there. 
Not that it's carbon, but I 

713
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,120
don't know how that's going to 
take an orthotic and it's 

714
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:05,160
definitely. 
Lower stack. 

715
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,560
The. 
That's like the lower stack 

716
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,280
racing one. 
Yeah, for sure. 

717
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,320
I think why am I forgetting 
there are a couple of Salomon 

718
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,880
shoes that actually do have, 
They're like more cushion. 

719
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,560
But you know, Salomon isn't the 
softest writing company out 

720
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:22,440
there and they're typically not 
designed for orthotics. 

721
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,840
So that's not one I would 
normally suggest Hoka, Speed 

722
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:27,560
Goat and even the updated 
Challenger. 

723
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,200
I really like the new 
Challenger. 

724
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,760
I think it's got a deeper, it's 
a, it's a very stable neutral 

725
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,880
shoe. 
It's not plated. 

726
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,840
It's also one that has a thicker
insole, which can take 

727
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:39,760
orthotics. 
Although over ultra distances 

728
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,640
you might want to modify your 
size just because Hoka's do tend

729
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,800
to fit a teeny bit more narrow. 
And so that one you might have 

730
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,360
to experiment with first in 
terms of optimizing the right 

731
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,920
size with your orthotic. 
And then New Balance I think is 

732
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,640
another good, good one. 
I really was looking forward to 

733
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,320
seeing if they had an update. 
But a really big favorite trail 

734
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,720
shoe of mine from them has been 
the New Balance Moore Trail V3, 

735
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:06,080
which it is. 
It is heavy, but it's got a nice

736
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,560
soft, bouncy midsole. 
And I really was surprised I 

737
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,360
could use that on trail on road.
It was so tall and the insole's 

738
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,640
really thick again, so you it 
cannot take orthotic. 

739
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:18,960
So I would I would call it the 
Moore V3 trail from New Balance 

740
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,320
as being another really, really 
good option, But you got options

741
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,440
there. 
And I think comfort again, is 

742
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,880
going to be key. 
And also, as Nathan mentioned, 

743
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,000
be cautious because, you know, 
just because something's higher 

744
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:31,600
stack doesn't necessarily mean 
it's going to have the 

745
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,080
cushioning that you want. 
And that's the challenge. 

746
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:36,800
And I think, you know, the 
Exodus Ultra 3 is a great 

747
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,880
example as I'm running the 
reviews like this is like 

748
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,040
weirdly firm. 
I don't feel the power on PB in 

749
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:42,320
here. 
That's odd. 

750
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,880
Or what was the other shoe we 
mentioned that's on the firmer 

751
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,920
side? 
Speed goats firmer, yeah. 

752
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,800
Yeah, that's like it's great. 
I love that shoe, but it's it's 

753
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,840
yeah, it's on the firmer so, but
that's also why it works for me 

754
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:56,600
because it's a little more 
stable in. 

755
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,920
That like for Solomon, the Ultra
Glide 3 is a little bit more 

756
00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:01,880
cushioned. 
That was my favorite trail shoe 

757
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,560
either last year, the year 
before whenever I whenever it 

758
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,400
came out. 
And it's again, it's firmer, but

759
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,920
I think that the cushioning is 
enough where and it's just so 

760
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,360
smooth where that's what I 
prefer. 

761
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,320
But I've never ran a 50K in 
anything ever. 

762
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,240
So I it's not like I can say 
from experience this is it. 

763
00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:23,000
But I think, yeah, I, I think 
the ones that we've talked about

764
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,040
are, are super solid. 
Quails 50 miles give or take. 

765
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,200
I'm thinking like 8K would be 
just shy of five miles, so 49. 

766
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,600
Yes. 
Andre K is 62. 

767
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:36,240
Miles, Yeah. 
So it'll be around. 

768
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,120
It'll be around 50 miles this 
race will be. 

769
00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:40,920
Yeah. 
What do y'all think about the 

770
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:44,320
Ultrafly? 
That's fine. 

771
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,680
From AI, think from an orthotic 
perspective, yeah. 

772
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:51,880
Is the insole. 
I don't think the insole's 

773
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:53,840
removable. 
Somebody correct me on that. 

774
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,080
I don't. 
I don't think it is. 

775
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,400
Yeah, if you got it right there 
behind you, I'd have to leave 

776
00:37:58,400 --> 00:37:58,760
the. 
Room. 

777
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,240
I swear I was looking at this. 
I swear I was looking at this 

778
00:38:01,240 --> 00:38:04,520
the other day. 
Doing it live. 

779
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,720
Exploring his dungeon? 
Yeah, exploring his. 

780
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:09,000
Dungeon our eyes. 
What what? 

781
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:10,680
What can we see on that wall 
over there? 

782
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,400
I think I see a fast R2. 
I think is that the ultra, the 

783
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,960
the carbon 20, it does come out 
I was wrong all right. 

784
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:25,000
Ultrafly comes out. 
Sorry, it's pretty thin, but it 

785
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,040
does come out. 
Do you think that could take an 

786
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,960
orthotic? 
It depends on your foot size. 

787
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,640
I felt like there was, I felt 
like there was ample width, but 

788
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,800
it was kind of shallow. 
So it depends on if lower volume

789
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,400
you need the volume, if it's 
like a super thick orthotic or. 

790
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:41,880
The plate's not that aggressive 
either, which is nice. 

791
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,520
Like it's stiff and it helps 
roll you along, but it's not 

792
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,680
like a like aggressively. 
Stiff. 

793
00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:51,160
It's a nice, it's a nice shoe. 
Yeah, well, there's like 30 

794
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,040
shoes to consider. 
Hope that's helpful. 

795
00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:00,360
I do think we we kind of like 
gave some categories from high 

796
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:01,880
higher cushioning to lower 
cushioning. 

797
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,920
And then what type of cushioning
where it's the Super soft, where

798
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,560
you'll get in kind of the edge 
super soft quote in quotes 

799
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:10,120
because it's trails. 
So it's usually a little bit 

800
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,840
firmer anyway, but you got the 
edge and you have the tectonics 

801
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,040
and then you have the highly 
cushioned, but slightly firmer 

802
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:19,520
and speed goat ultra glide 
caldera, that kind of stuff. 

803
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,280
Caldera probably sits in the 
middle of of those. 

804
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,920
But all right, anything else you
want to add on this one? 

805
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,080
No, I think we're good. 
I mean, there's some, a few 

806
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,520
ASICS models, but unfortunately 
I don't think we any of us have 

807
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:32,560
any experience with that. 
So. 

808
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,320
So I can't comment on the. 
Their trail? 

809
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,000
You just ran recently in some 
Adidas trail stuff didn't you? 

810
00:39:38,240 --> 00:39:43,160
Anything fit the bill here? 
Oh, the probably not. 

811
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,240
I mean the ultra. 
The speed ultra is actually I 

812
00:39:48,240 --> 00:39:52,000
really like it and I it just it 
doesn't have a removal insole 

813
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,000
though, so and it's definitely 
not midfoots, not stable. 

814
00:39:55,240 --> 00:39:58,000
So that's not a shoe I think I 
would suggest for somebody with 

815
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,520
mild stability needs over that 
distance. 

816
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:06,800
The speed does have ruble 
insole, but the shoe is fairly 

817
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,840
narrow and that would probably 
not take an orthotic very well. 

818
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:16,960
The gravic is. 
Super firm and it's not going to

819
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,760
be cushioned at all. 
It might be able to take your 

820
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,520
thought if you do a bigger size.
But yeah, I don't think a lot of

821
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,640
the Adidas models are, are 
probably going to be an option 

822
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,240
here. 
Unless there's one that I'm 

823
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,760
missing because I those are the 
three that I've tried. 

824
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,720
I know that they have a few 
other ones that I I don't know 

825
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:36,040
to be honest. 
Great. 

826
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,680
All right, Well, let's move on 
to our final question for the 

827
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,000
night, this from Tim Coleman. 
He's asking. 

828
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,160
Hey, Dr. Crew, I've been running
consistently for about 10 years 

829
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,880
with only a couple of issues 
with injury until the last two 

830
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:52,440
years, all on my right leg. 
I'm in my mid 30s, active job, Q

831
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,680
care PT. 
Shout out to Q care PTS and 

832
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,520
strength trained regularly with 
both dual and single leg 

833
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,560
exercises. 
I've noticed that on runs my 

834
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,040
right knee seems to be 
collapsing more immediately than

835
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,720
my left, to a degree that feels 
noticeably asymmetrical. 

836
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:09,960
There are not. 
There may not be a great answer,

837
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,080
but I was curious to get 
thoughts regarding changes in 

838
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,800
gait mechanics over time 
prompting the need for more 

839
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:17,640
stability or guidance through 
footwear. 

840
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,600
I feel I do a good job with 
maintenance of strength, but I 

841
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,840
have a difficulty keeping my 
right leg mechanics in, 

842
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:27,280
particularly given some of my 
nagging issues like SSI, joint 

843
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,560
dysfunction, hip flexor strain. 
Most recently I've always worn 

844
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,080
neutral shoes with shoes like 
the Saucony Ride and Endorphin 

845
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,240
Shift in speed making up a bulk 
of my miles. 

846
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:41,800
Currently considering trialling 
a mild stability option based on

847
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:43,840
the published UR Stability shoe 
guide. 

848
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,320
Thanks for the input. 
All right, first of all, shout 

849
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,800
out to Tim who's a neuroclinical
specialist and is a boss and has

850
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,960
been a long time follower. 
So absolute shout out there. 

851
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,440
We know who you are. 
Great, I would say that the to 

852
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,920
address the first question I'm 
able might let you to take the 

853
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,280
remainder is that yeah, your 
bodies bodies change frequently 

854
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,000
over time. 
So I would I would definitely 

855
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,040
never get married to a certain 
category, especially if you're 

856
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,480
planning on running for a long 
time, because your body's going 

857
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,400
to change your foot size might 
change. 

858
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,840
Your mechanics are definitely 
going to change with be age or 

859
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,400
anything else. 
Like, you know, as as males, we 

860
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,000
kind of get a little lucky, but 
women have massive changes that 

861
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,480
occur during, during before, 
after pregnancy, for example. 

862
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,120
There's some interesting 
evidence coming out with the 

863
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,680
changes that happen with 
menopause in terms of hormonal 

864
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:33,960
things that change. 
So yeah, like all your mechanics

865
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,520
can, if you're lucky enough, 
they stay the same through your 

866
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:37,200
life. 
Awesome. 

867
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,440
But change is very, very normal.
So don't get married to a shoe 

868
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,000
category. 
Instead, try to find what 

869
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,880
category is comfortable and 
working for you. 

870
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:48,480
And the one that keeps you 
healthy is probably the one 

871
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:49,480
that's going to work best for 
you. 

872
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,360
So if you're, you want to try a 
stability shoe, I think going 

873
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,640
mild stability might be the best
option because a lot of the 

874
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,960
shoes that you mentioned are on 
the stable neutral like the 

875
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:03,120
shift, rest in peace. 
Although we're having are we, 

876
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:05,360
this is off topic. 
We're having a somewhat 

877
00:43:05,720 --> 00:43:07,720
replacement the Endorphin. 
I think. 

878
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,160
After the Kevara Pro, I think 
that like what do we? 

879
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:11,600
We haven't tried this up yet, 
but. 

880
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,480
Visually it looks very much like
the Kevara Pro, which isn't 

881
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,720
quite what the shift was. 
They're they're not quite the 

882
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,360
same anyway. 
Yeah, we're still looking for 

883
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,320
our shift replacement by the way
too, so don't worry. 

884
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:25,960
But some of the shoes you 
mentioned are stable neutral. 

885
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:29,960
So a mild stability shoe might 
not be a bad thing to try. 

886
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,040
And I think that's a lot better 
than just getting really 

887
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:33,600
aggressive going. 
Oh, I'm going to do like a Max 

888
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:38,400
stability shoe because we know 
that aggressive change is also a

889
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,400
risk for injury. 
So making some mild 

890
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,520
modifications are great. 
And I think a mild stability 

891
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,360
shoe is great because that's a a
type of shoe that often work for

892
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,040
people with neutral or stability
needs. 

893
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:50,760
So I I think that's a great 
option. 

894
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,720
Yeah, like Matt said, I mean, I 
agree with everything he said. 

895
00:43:55,720 --> 00:43:58,840
Like things can change over 
time, especially if you've had a

896
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,800
recurrent type of like let's say
the hip flexor, the SI joint, 

897
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,080
like things where you kind of 
have like proximal movements 

898
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,000
where like maybe you're not 
extending quite as far. 

899
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:07,200
And once that, I don't know, I 
can't see you. 

900
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:11,000
But your mechanics might change 
over time. 

901
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,720
You know, the way you land, the 
way your stride opens up, things

902
00:44:13,720 --> 00:44:17,200
might be a little bit different.
And if you have a kind of a 

903
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,240
visceral feeling that there's an
asymmetry there and maybe you 

904
00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:24,040
just need a little bit more 
support on one side, then maybe 

905
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,560
a mild stability could work. 
And I, I think of things like an

906
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:30,480
A6 GT 2013. 
I think of like a Cartu Oconee 

907
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,200
shoes that give you just a 
little bit of guidance. 

908
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:34,800
Yeah. 
The fulcrum on the side we use 

909
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:35,680
is good. 
Pebble. 

910
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:36,120
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

911
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,600
No, I'm just making faces. 
I didn't, I no, I just didn't 

912
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:41,320
like the the you didn't like 
that color. 

913
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,520
You're totally right. 
I didn't. 

914
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,240
Like you, I like I, I think it's
stable. 

915
00:44:47,240 --> 00:44:49,680
I think you're totally right. 
I didn't like it. 

916
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:51,080
It's blasphemy. 
What did? 

917
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,360
What didn't you like about it? 
I just felt like it was like 

918
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:58,520
the, the fulcrum just felt kind 
of clunky and it was just, I 

919
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:00,800
don't know, I maybe I just 
wanted more cushion and it was 

920
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:02,560
like a little firmer than. 
I it's always been a firm. 

921
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,320
It's always been a firm. 
It sounds like you want it to be

922
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,800
something that it's not. 
Don't make the iconi be 

923
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:09,880
something. 
That's not literally, that's 

924
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,600
hey. 
Don't ask it to change. 

925
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:14,520
It's just be in itself man, you 
know? 

926
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,600
It's like it's running it like, 
OK, I'm not running into this 

927
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:20,280
shoe. 
David, somebody else got the 

928
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,600
review. 
Well, if it does work for you, 

929
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,040
it actually is a really nice 
shoe. 

930
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:30,760
It is so angry. 
Nice enough to like probably 

931
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,960
just miss making a mark at the 
end of the year here for me, but

932
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,000
it's one of my favorite trainers
of the year, of this year, so. 

933
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:43,400
It's a classic David pick, so 
simple and so effective for him.

934
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:45,960
It's great. 
It's great. 

935
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,480
I think one of the a couple of 
the questions that don't 

936
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,360
necessarily go into the shoe 
realm for this question for you,

937
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,360
Tim. 
But I think when I hear about 

938
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,440
types of injuries that surround 
low back, sacral region 

939
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,680
discomfort, maybe hip flexor 
stuff like sick things 

940
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,520
surrounding the hip. 
I think my questions go to are 

941
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,000
some of your mechanical 
differences, not due to strength

942
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,200
issues, but due to some 
inhibition due to discomfort in 

943
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:12,880
the region. 
So then maybe the muscles of the

944
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:16,800
hip that control some of the the
knee in and out in the thigh 

945
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:20,440
angle maybe though. 
And yeah, maybe those have more 

946
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,680
of an interplay than just the 
pure strength that you're 

947
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:25,840
seeing. 
And so the mechanics changes 

948
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:27,600
you're noticing are related to 
that. 

949
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:29,760
And when you're doing your 
strengthening, I also don't know

950
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,440
if you're just doing the 
strengthening, the lifting, or 

951
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:34,880
if you're adding kind of that 
neuromuscular component where 

952
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,240
you're thinking about form. 
I don't think that form is in 

953
00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:39,720
bio. 
Mechanics are always king. 

954
00:46:39,720 --> 00:46:42,240
That's not how our bodies need 
to function. 

955
00:46:42,240 --> 00:46:43,960
There isn't a quote right way to
move. 

956
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,680
However, you can train your 
brain and body to move in 

957
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,200
certain ways over time with 
specific types of practice. 

958
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,320
He knows this better than I do 
because he's a neuro specialist.

959
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:55,840
So I shouldn't even talk to him 
about this. 

960
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:59,760
He's like, yeah dude, I know. 
But you know, that could just be

961
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,520
stuff to consider. 
You know, the interplay of the 

962
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,000
types of discomforts you have 
and how that may be 

963
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,640
neuromuscularly played into some
of your movement. 

964
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,080
I also don't know if you have 
taking a video of yourself 

965
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,320
running from the front or from 
behind on a treadmill, but it 

966
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,000
might be nice to do that. 
And if you haven't looked it up,

967
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,920
you could probably, you know, 
through a pub Med search or 

968
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,480
something find Brian 
Heiderscheitz like 2D analysis 

969
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,840
reliability study. 
So he has kind of a 2D analysis 

970
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,200
form that physical therapist can
use. 

971
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,280
And you could use that to see, 
oh, are there meaningful 

972
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,800
biomechanical changes or is it 
more perception? 

973
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:38,200
So that's always my other 
question. 

974
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,200
When people feel differences, 
it's is it differences you're 

975
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,160
feeling or is it differences 
that can be seen? 

976
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,800
Because I think those are also 
different as well because 

977
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,760
perception and movement are two 
different things when it comes 

978
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:52,640
to stress on the body. 
So I have lots of thoughts in 

979
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:57,120
that realm, but I don't have any
actionable things because 

980
00:47:57,240 --> 00:47:59,680
obviously we're not working 
together one-on-one. 

981
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:04,680
What we're going to say, Matt. 
This is also not a diagnosis and

982
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,560
the kind of similar thing, but I
would also just based on the 

983
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:11,000
locations of symptoms, make sure
and I this is a top down versus 

984
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,640
bottom up approach, but I would 
just double check lumbar spine 

985
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,120
because a lot of the stuff in 
the lower lumbar, if it's 

986
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,280
annoyed or stiff like a 
oftentimes stiffness may not get

987
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:23,120
better with strength training. 
You might actually do might need

988
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,840
to work on some mobility and get
things moving a little bit more 

989
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,160
because there's a lot of those 
lower facet joints can certainly

990
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:32,920
refer symptoms and cause some 
inhibition and, and stuff down 

991
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,720
there at what might appear 
because it's a common referral 

992
00:48:35,720 --> 00:48:38,640
to the what seems like an SI 
joint or can cause some 

993
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,560
inhibition to some of the deep 
hip rotators, which may or may 

994
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:42,840
not. 
I'm not diagnosing, but just 

995
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,840
saying I would double check and 
go through your like basic 

996
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,600
lumbar range of motions and see 
if you can reproduce anything 

997
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:50,080
and cut. 
Try to again, figure out like 

998
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,800
strength is really important, 
but it doesn't necessarily treat

999
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:56,360
every single thing most 
effectively. 

1000
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,360
Strength is going to be the best
thing from an injure prevention 

1001
00:48:58,360 --> 00:48:59,960
standpoint, from resilience 
standpoint. 

1002
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,040
But when you're looking at some 
tissue changes like this, make 

1003
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:06,560
sure you've got the the right 
intervention you need to address

1004
00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:08,520
this. 
And whether it's motor control 

1005
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:10,720
as Nathan was mentioned, which 
is going to be something 

1006
00:49:10,720 --> 00:49:13,560
definitely in your wheelhouse or
trying to figure out, you know, 

1007
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:17,040
I think you have some very good 
options and which one you choose

1008
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,800
to go through I think is going 
to be positive regardless. 100% 

1009
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:24,880
agree. 
All right, So anything else 

1010
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,120
before we sign off for the day, 
gentlemen? 

1011
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:30,080
Are we going to have a surprise?
I was going to come up with one 

1012
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,360
but my mind went blank so I've 
got nothing. 

1013
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,200
So if someone else wants to 
bring a question on us, should. 

1014
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,480
We do another like pizza 
question. 

1015
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:40,720
Can't do pizza? 
David's too fancy for that. 

1016
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,360
Why not? 
We could do like an action 

1017
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:46,440
sports question. 
Please no. 

1018
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:49,800
Because that's Nate's world over
there. 

1019
00:49:51,720 --> 00:49:53,920
But then I'm going to sit here 
and just awkwardly, like, I 

1020
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:58,120
don't know, man, let's see. 
I don't know man, what do we 

1021
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,640
got? 
Can I do something absolutely 

1022
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:02,760
blasphemous? 
Is it air friendly? 

1023
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:05,040
Like it? 
Yeah, it is. 

1024
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,240
But I might. 
It's it's friendly, it's 

1025
00:50:08,240 --> 00:50:10,200
appropriate. 
But this might cause enough 

1026
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:11,880
issues, I might get kicked off 
to you. 

1027
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:13,160
OK. 
I think we're fine. 

1028
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:14,840
Let's go for it. 
OK. 

1029
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:21,120
So if you had to describe like 
Thanksgiving meal as a pizza. 

1030
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:23,920
What would that pizza be? 
So dumb. 

1031
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:28,560
I said this might be 
blasphemous. 

1032
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,920
So, you know, it's got a lot of 
toppings, a lot of things going 

1033
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:33,280
on, and it's all on the same 
plate. 

1034
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:36,640
There we go. 
I thought you were going to say 

1035
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:38,840
pesto. 
All right I actually have a 

1036
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:45,000
question but I think have you 
well this BJ's this could we 

1037
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,360
don't really edit much of this 
and BJ's like yes I do y'all 

1038
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:53,320
just don't know. 
So have you both been testing 

1039
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:57,720
the hookah that we were sent? 
Which the the mock X2. 

1040
00:50:57,720 --> 00:50:59,800
Mock X2. 
Mock X2 that came in right 

1041
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,960
before I left for Thanksgiving, 
so I have not run in it yet. 

1042
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,760
I just, I got back last night, 
yeah. 50 miles in it. 

1043
00:51:07,240 --> 00:51:09,840
I have 50 miles in it. 
I've done every type of workout 

1044
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,040
in it. 
And I just did a comparison 

1045
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,800
video review between version 
one. 

1046
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:16,880
OK. 
So what I want to hear from from

1047
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:21,480
you, Matt is I know you compared
version one to version 2, but 

1048
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:26,120
where do you compare it to in 
terms of other brands like the 

1049
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:29,760
most comparable shoe, other 
brands where it fits a similar 

1050
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:33,320
kind of training companion 
categorical shoe, where it's 

1051
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,040
lighter weight plated training 
shoe? 

1052
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:40,200
I definitely see it fitting in 
the Super trainer category, but 

1053
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,560
there's there's two, there's two
like subcategories of that. 

1054
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:47,400
Now there's your like heavier 
super trainer that's got like 

1055
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,400
the Max stack height in the 
cushioning, whatever, blah, 

1056
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,160
blah. 
And then there's the lighter 

1057
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:52,760
group. 
And the most common shoe that 

1058
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:54,640
people are going to know is 
going to be the Super Blast, 

1059
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,880
which I know is not plated, but 
that shoe is stiff as all all 

1060
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,960
belief. 
So I honestly see the mock X2 

1061
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:09,280
fitting very similarly to a shoe
like the Super Blast 2 or the 

1062
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,880
Mizuno Wave Neo Vista, which I 
know isn't the stiffest shoe, 

1063
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:15,480
but it's also plated. 
And I know it's super fault, but

1064
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:18,440
that's a just a bouncy ride 
that's a little bit lighter in 

1065
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:21,520
that like high to low 9 range, 
That's really, really bouncy. 

1066
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:24,720
That can be used as a daily 
trainer and as a worker shoe and

1067
00:52:24,720 --> 00:52:28,240
honestly is going to be a really
great long distance ratio for a 

1068
00:52:28,240 --> 00:52:30,800
majority of the public. 
And I think it's a great 

1069
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,360
alternative and better option 
than a lot of the Super shoes 

1070
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:36,440
out there. 
So those are kind of the two 

1071
00:52:36,720 --> 00:52:40,600
that stuck out to me most being 
the really high stack height 

1072
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:44,680
more more, not fully, but a 
little more super foam and a 

1073
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:47,800
little stiffer ride is kind of 
where I'm seeing that faster 

1074
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:49,760
super trainer fit in. 
Perfect. 

1075
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,960
Well, thank you everybody for 
joining us on this podcast 

1076
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:57,000
journey. 
I also want to thank both of you

1077
00:52:57,240 --> 00:53:01,240
for the friendships over the 
last over many years. 

1078
00:53:01,240 --> 00:53:04,480
Now five years since we since 
Matt, you asked us to come join 

1079
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,240
Dor. 
It's it's been a fun community 

1080
00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:10,360
for me. 
So part of my Thanksgiving sort 

1081
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:15,240
of reflections included thinking
about Dor and what this has been

1082
00:53:15,240 --> 00:53:19,640
for, for me professionally, 
socially, and for our family 

1083
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:20,720
too. 
Like there's been a lot of 

1084
00:53:20,720 --> 00:53:23,840
really cool things that have 
come from this and just thankful

1085
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:28,280
for for you both thankful for 
Bach and Andrea and BJ. 

1086
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,800
I think we have just a such a 
cohesive and fun team and it 

1087
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,600
makes this side gig really, 
really fun. 

1088
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:40,240
So thank you both and to 
everyone who's been on this 

1089
00:53:40,240 --> 00:53:42,200
journey with us. 
It helps make it worth it, you 

1090
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,120
know, being able to interact 
with you all and to help us 

1091
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:47,840
continue to do things that we 
hope are helpful to you. 

1092
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:52,840
That's why we do this as we want
to create content and knowledge,

1093
00:53:53,240 --> 00:53:57,120
ways to hear about ideas in ways
that are helpful for people. 

1094
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:59,280
So thank you for joining along 
with us. 

1095
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:03,120
It's always super humbling for 
us to have people care about the

1096
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:05,880
words we say and the words that 
we write and the things that we 

1097
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:10,080
try to put out there. 
So we are super thankful for all

1098
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,000
of you. 
So I know this will come out 

1099
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:14,880
couple weeks after Thanksgiving,
but hopefully we can still be in

1100
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:18,120
a thankful spirit at the time 
and hope you all have a great 

1101
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:18,680
rest of your day.