1 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,120 Hello everyone, and welcome to the Doctors of Running podcast 2 00:00:13,120 --> 00:00:16,280 where we, a group of doctors of physical therapy, discuss the 3 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:18,680 art and the science of the stuff that we're putting on our feet. 4 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,520 I'm Andrea Myers, and today we have a very special guest with 5 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,880 us, Doctor Alan Lim, the founder of Scratch Labs. 6 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,880 Doctor Lim, thank you so much for joining us today. 7 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:30,320 We're so excited to have you on the. 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:34,840 Pod Yeah, thanks for having. Me Scratch is also this year's 9 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:39,320 sponsor of the pod, so we also are very appreciative of all of 10 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,280 your support of our podcast. We love your products. 11 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,240 I've been using them, I think since you started Scratch Labs 12 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:51,160 back in 2012. So thank you for providing many, 13 00:00:51,160 --> 00:00:53,040 many great products over the years. 14 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,040 For those of you who aren't familiar with Doctor Lim, he 15 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,520 received his doctorate from the Applied Exercise Science 16 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,400 Laboratory at the University of Colorado at Boulder. 17 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,720 His doctoral work focused on the use of portable power meters to 18 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,600 better understand the demands associated with professional 19 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,000 cycling. After graduating, Allen worked 20 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,400 on the Pro Cycling Tour as a sports scientist and coach for 21 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,200 the FONAC, Garmin and RadioShack professional cycling teams. 22 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,680 After leaving the Pro Tour in 2012, Allen founded Scratch 23 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:30,280 Labs, a sports nutrition company based in Boulder, Co where he 24 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:32,440 leads product development and innovation. 25 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,920 He has also helped co-author 3 cookbooks with Chef Bo Thomas, 26 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,760 The Feed Zone Cookbook, Feed Zone Portables and the Feed Zone 27 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,680 Table which I have all three. They are awesome and highly 28 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,000 recommend. So again, thanks so much for 29 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,480 joining us. And 1st off, can you just tell 30 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:52,680 us what led you to starting Scratch Labs? 31 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,360 You know, I think the start of Scratch Labs, like many things 32 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:58,080 in life, was a bit of a happy accident. 33 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,760 I never really identified or saw myself as an entrepreneur or a 34 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:06,400 business person. But you know, my time at on the 35 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,520 Pro Tour was up. I needed a way to support 36 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,160 myself. I had been making sports drinks 37 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,560 and different, you know, sports nutrition products for the 38 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,120 athletes I worked with when I was on the Pro Cycling tour. 39 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,960 And a lot of these athletes who I formerly worked with were 40 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,600 asking me for these products. And so with my really good 41 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,640 friend Ian McGregor and Aaron Foster, we literally started 42 00:02:29,640 --> 00:02:34,880 making this stuff in, you know, first some little blenders at in 43 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:39,000 in my own kitchen and then using paint shaker at our local 44 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,360 hardware store. Initially we thought it was kind 45 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,160 of, you know, maybe a funny little joke. 46 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,440 But we started to really hear from, you know what, what I 47 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:49,680 might call everyday athletes that we're having a big, big 48 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,000 impact on making the best part of their day even better. 49 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:59,360 And found, you know, a lot of learning, a lot of meaning, a 50 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,200 lot of curiosity out of it all. And so just followed our nose 51 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:08,840 and, you know, decided to try something new with the aim of 52 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,960 helping others to become better while still participating in, 53 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,880 you know, the the sports that I love. 54 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,520 I think that being a sports scientist and coach on the Pro 55 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,480 Cycling tour is a really, really hard life. 56 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,120 You're on the road all the time. I wanted to continue to 57 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,000 participate in that life, but I wanted to have a more 58 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,400 unconditional relationship with it, which meant that I had to 59 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,120 find a way to become financially stable. 60 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:36,240 So you know, in many ways Scratch Labs has allowed me to 61 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:40,280 continue working at a very high level in sport, but instead of 62 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,720 the athletes having to worry about hiring me, Scratch 63 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:46,960 effectively sponsors me to help the athletes. 64 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:49,600 That's awesome. And also, when you're working on 65 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,160 the Pro Tour, there's not a lot of time for your own personal 66 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,760 enjoyment of cycling or running or whatever your own outlet is. 67 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,560 So I'm sure you probably have a little more time to get out on 68 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:05,160 the bike these days. Yeah, it, you know, initially in 69 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,560 the first couple of years of starting scratch, probably the 70 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,080 first decade, it was really, really hard. 71 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:12,560 I mean, it probably got worse before it got better. 72 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,920 But, you know, the last two or so years, yeah, I've been able 73 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,560 to enjoy getting out on the bike more and taking better care of 74 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,520 myself as the company has grown and become more stable. 75 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,680 And, you know, it's been a nice, a nice thing. 76 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:28,960 That's awesome. Well, congratulations. 77 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,200 It's good to be at that point. And yeah, I remember when Secret 78 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,560 drink Mix had first come out and people were talking about it. 79 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:40,080 And back then, the options for electrolyte drinks really were 80 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,320 not that great. I remember 1 brand in 81 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,320 particular, if you didn't wash your bottles 30 minutes after 82 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,080 you rode, you had a science experiment pretty quickly. 83 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,040 Yeah. And some just didn't taste that 84 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,760 good and some just didn't have the ingredients that you needed. 85 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,920 So you guys have really nailed it on the head with the various 86 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,960 offerings that you have, but your products have kind of 87 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,640 evolved since you started. So can you tell me kind of how 88 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,320 that development process worked and how you've come to the line 89 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,520 that you have currently? It always comes from the 90 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,040 athletes, it always comes from conversations and from, you 91 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,200 know, the, the, the solving of problems for them. 92 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:25,160 Our sports drink mix hasn't changed all that much. 93 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,400 If anything, it does have a little bit more sodium. 94 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,920 We keep the formula extraordinarily simple. 95 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,120 It's really just sucrose and glucose, so simple sugars. 96 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:41,600 It has an amount of sodium that is on average, the amount that 97 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,400 someone loses in sweat, which is about 800 milligrams of sodium 98 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,480 per liter. And then we just use freeze 99 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,360 dried fruit or dehydrated fruit juice to flavor the drink and 100 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,000 that's it. This was the first product that 101 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:57,080 we started with, and since then we've added other products to 102 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,960 our line. We've added a very complex 103 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,600 carbohydrate drink mix, something we call super high 104 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:07,680 carb to the line, which is made out of a complex starch called 105 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,960 highly branched cyclic dextrin. This allows more calories to be 106 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:17,320 put into a given volume of water so that you can get more 107 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:22,160 calories through liquid fuel. The carbohydrate is complex 108 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:27,200 enough that it digests at a rate that better matches the 109 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,560 absorption of carbohydrate or glucose through the small 110 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:32,280 intestine. So what that means is 111 00:06:32,280 --> 00:06:35,760 effectively you don't get a traffic jam, you don't get a 112 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,000 bunch of little molecules into the gut that could cause GI 113 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,920 distress at once. What you have is very, very big, 114 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:47,280 very dense carbohydrate that breaks apart in slower time 115 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:50,440 frame. You've added a recovery drink 116 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,120 mix, which is basically, you know, our version of chocolate 117 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,320 milk or or orchata or strawberry milk. 118 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,880 We also have a vegan recovery drink mix product. 119 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:02,920 And then we have some products like energy chews and energy 120 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,240 bars. And finally, you know, my whole 121 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,400 adage has always been you can cook your own food, you can make 122 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,320 your own sports trips. You don't necessarily have to 123 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,960 buy products from our, you know, from scratch or from other 124 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,040 companies. And so This is why we wrote the 125 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,640 Feed Zone Cookbook series with Chef Bijou. 126 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,560 In the same light, this is also why we started the Scratch Labs 127 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,120 Cafe in Boulder, Co, a place where athletes can come and 128 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,280 connect, learn, be inspired and have great food before and after 129 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:38,360 their, you know, big adventures. I haven't had the chance to 130 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,040 visit your guys in Boulder, but I've heard that your cafe is 131 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,200 quite a place, so hopefully someday and I. 132 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,560 It's awesome. I think your cookbooks really 133 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,880 for cyclists in particular, change just options of what you 134 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,760 could eat on the bike 'cause you go on a six hour ride. 135 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,120 I don't know if you know this. I was a professional cyclist 136 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:02,280 2015, 20 years ago. You get tired of bars and gels 137 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,040 and you know, I, I don't need to tell you that, but just being 138 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,640 able to make something like those rice cakes in your book 139 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,000 where it tastes, it is real food. 140 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,920 You can vary up the ingredients so you don't get tired of it. 141 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:17,800 It makes you want to keep eating. 142 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,320 That was really a revolutionary for cycling and I'd love to get 143 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:26,720 your input on, you know, runners would love those same options. 144 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:31,600 It's just we're a little more limited by storage issues and 145 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,720 digestive issues. I can't really imagine myself 146 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:38,760 eating a rice cake while, you know, doing a 20 mile long run. 147 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,400 So do you have anything that you recommend to runners? 148 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,320 Like if they just don't want to use a gel or chews or whatever, 149 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,480 they want real food. What are some go TOS that you 150 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,480 recommend to your athletes? I think it really depends on how 151 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,640 long they're running and what the intensity is, the duration. 152 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,800 I do think that first and foremost if an athlete is well 153 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,800 fueled and they have a high carbohydrate diet, then they 154 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,360 will have enough glycogen on board to cover, you know 155 00:09:08,680 --> 00:09:13,600 anywhere from 15 to 20 miles. So I think that there is at 156 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:20,680 times an over concern about, you know, consuming a lot of of of 157 00:09:20,680 --> 00:09:23,640 food and drink when we're working out when those workouts 158 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,680 are under 2 hours. So if the workout is under 2 159 00:09:27,680 --> 00:09:31,560 hours, my general recommendation is just make sure that you're 160 00:09:31,560 --> 00:09:36,080 eating properly during the week during your training life and 161 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,280 especially 3 hours before you work out. 162 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,760 And that if your blood sugar is a little low or you feel a 163 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,840 little under or it's going to be a particularly intense workout, 164 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:50,320 I'll usually have athletes drink, you know, anywhere from 165 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:55,480 250 to 500 mills of carbohydrate right when they start their 166 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,280 workout. So that's yeah, 50 to 100 grams 167 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:03,760 in 250 to 500 mills of water. So we'll use our super high carb 168 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:08,880 product and make it at about a 20% carbohydrate solution. 169 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:13,720 That's 20 grams per 100 mills and you know they'll have a 170 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:15,680 bolus of carbohydrate right when they start. 171 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,760 And usually that allows runners not to have any GI distress, but 172 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,800 it allows them to keep their blood sugar at a much higher 173 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:28,000 level during their workout. I think that for the ultra 174 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:33,120 endurance runners and crowd, it really depends on the intensity, 175 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:34,520 right? You've got to make some 176 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,160 calculations to figure out what is the minimum amount of 177 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,120 carbohydrate you need to have to keep your blood sugar off. 178 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,920 There is a lot of research that's involved because or using 179 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,840 a combination of fat and carbohydrate during exercise and 180 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,280 that ratio can change depending upon the intensity for a given 181 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,680 individual. Usually sports drink mix is 182 00:10:54,680 --> 00:10:58,840 enough. And usually, you know, some 183 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:04,600 simple foods can work as long as there's not a lot of fiber, as 184 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,040 long as it's very, very simple and there's not a lot of kind of 185 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,400 access. So, you know, as an example, 186 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:16,080 I've had runners boil just little potatoes, add a little 187 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:19,360 bit of salt, maybe a little bit of Parmesan or olive oil and 188 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:23,080 wrap them up in paper foil. And that's usually simple enough 189 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:29,320 that it works out OK, You know, But this is about a lot of 190 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,120 experimentation, both what you eat when you're not exercising 191 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,640 as well as what you're eating during exercise. 192 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,680 There is a limit to what the gut can absorb. 193 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:41,280 And often times those limitations are also based upon 194 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,840 temperature. And so if you're overheating or 195 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,960 you have heat stress or you're not keeping yourself cool, that 196 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,720 could actually be the real bottleneck to absorbing 197 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,720 carbohydrate and, you know, keeping your blood sugar up. 198 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,960 So yeah, lots of options. I'd start with making sure 199 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,280 you're well fed. And that is the number one most 200 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,200 important recommendation, I think, you know, and as 201 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,400 endurance athletes, we can get caught up in like the 1% where 202 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,760 is we need really need to focus on the 99% sleep, proper 203 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:18,880 nutrition most of the day when we're not exercising, decreasing 204 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,080 stress where we can strength training, you know, all of the 205 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,560 basic things that people know they should do, but they're not 206 00:12:25,560 --> 00:12:28,600 as exciting is talking about like, oh, this fancy new 207 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:33,400 nutrition product or yeah. Yeah, yeah, you can't eat your 208 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,520 way into fitness. And I think that there is a 209 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:41,280 misnomer when athletes here, what is being consumed by the 210 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,560 most elite athletes who have the highest level of fitness, who 211 00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:47,880 have the highest level of energy expenditure, For those athletes, 212 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,360 they have to eat proportion to their energy expenditure. 213 00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:53,520 So a lot of this also depends on, well, how many calories are 214 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,960 you burning? And I do think that a lot of 215 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:00,920 people overestimate how much work they're doing when they're 216 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,960 out on a run. You know, I think a very, very 217 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,480 simple rule this is, you know, over generalized, but every 218 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,400 mile, whether you walk or run is going to burn about 100 219 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,040 calories. So and you know for most people, 220 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,840 if they are on a high carbohydrate diet, they'll 221 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,360 likely have about 2000 calories worth of glycogen on board, 222 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,320 which is the storage form of carbohydrate which your body can 223 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:27,680 use as that, you know, high octane fuel during high 224 00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:31,400 intensity exercise. So I was listening to you on 225 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,920 another podcast recently and you had mentioned, you know, that 226 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,400 you have your athletes drink a high carb bottle right before 227 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,560 starting and that you also recommend not eating in the one 228 00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:45,960 to two hours before exercise, which of course makes sense 229 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:47,720 because you don't want a blood sugar crash. 230 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,560 So that interested me because I work out in the morning, I get 231 00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:55,040 up an hour before I'm going to go run. 232 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,880 I eat a bowl of oatmeal and I can go run. 233 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,360 And I don't have any symptoms of, you know, blood sugar crash. 234 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:06,040 But for people like me, would it actually be better to not eat 235 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:10,000 that hour before and just take something right before heading 236 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,080 out? Or is it more so you figure out 237 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,800 what works for you? Yeah, I, I don't know. 238 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:19,200 I would say it's what works for you and that's a very easy 239 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:24,720 experiment for you to do. So I'm not, I'm not a believer 240 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,680 in any particular way or like fact per SE. 241 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,960 I'll say that differently. I'm not a believer in any 242 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:37,160 particular fact. I am a believer in the process 243 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:42,360 of the scientific method as a way and so you can do that 244 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:47,520 experiment yourself and actually try a different approach. 245 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:53,160 Meaning sleep an extra hour, have you know, 50 to 100 grams 246 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,840 of carbohydrate right as you start your workout and see if 247 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,480 you perform better, see if you feel better, see if you go 248 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,800 faster. Do this a few times on the same 249 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,680 course and then go back to the oatmeal and see how you feel. 250 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,920 You can also buy a blood glucose sensor and monitor your blood 251 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,960 sugar and see which results in a more consistent and elevated 252 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:19,000 blood sugar during the exercise. And you can monitor whether or 253 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,240 not that increase in blood sugar during exercise is associated 254 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,880 with better performance as well. So I would encourage you to 255 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,080 experiment. I would also say that being able 256 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:33,040 to eat an hour before exercise is not the norm, so while it 257 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,240 might work for you, it's usually not where I would start someone. 258 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,760 Yeah, understood. Yeah, we're all an end of one, 259 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:42,240 right? What works for me is going to 260 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:47,520 work for you. So we know scientific facts, but 261 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,840 that doesn't mean that those facts applied the same to 262 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:52,840 everybody. Well, yeah, that's right, 263 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,160 because most scientific facts are based on an average. 264 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:56,720 They're based on a normal distribution. 265 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,840 And depending upon where you end up on the scatter plot, you 266 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:04,680 know, if you're on one far side, you know, 1 standard deviation 267 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,840 over versus 2 standard deviations over, you're talking 268 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:09,680 about being a totally different beast. 269 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:14,360 Of course, and also, you know, thanks to Stacey Sims and other 270 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,680 researchers, there are finally some exercise Physiology 271 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,560 research studies being done specifically on women. 272 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,160 But for many, many years, most studies were done on men. 273 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:30,240 So a lot of the nutrition research that, you know, I had 274 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:35,880 access to 20-30 years ago didn't apply to me as accurately as 275 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,720 perhaps it could have now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 276 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:41,800 I think what's important when you read the scientific 277 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,320 literature is you read the methods and you try to 278 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,960 understand whether or not you can replicate those methods, you 279 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:53,040 know, for yourself. Obviously, you know, today it's 280 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,000 a lot easier to do than in the past because there are so many 281 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,000 tools available to us to self monitor, whereas in the past 282 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,160 there were not, You know, you had to go to a laboratory to 283 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,720 measure power output. You had to go to a laboratory to 284 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,880 measure, you know, blood lactate or you know, your blood sugar 285 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,160 during exercise. Now you can make most of those 286 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,440 measures with very common devices that are connected to 287 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:16,520 your phone. Right. 288 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,839 It's pretty incredible what is available at the consumer level 289 00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:21,880 now. I think blood glucose monitors 290 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,240 are going to become more and more popular for all endurance 291 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,880 athletes. I wanted to, I'm glad you 292 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,280 brought that up. I wanted to ask you what you 293 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:35,960 think about sweat rate sensors. Some companies have, you know, a 294 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,880 little sticker you put on and then it reports to an app and 295 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,520 helps you figure out your sweat rate and sodium loss. 296 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,920 Do you have an opinion on those? Is there one that's better than 297 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,560 others? Or how would you have athletes 298 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:49,440 figure out their sweat and sodium? 299 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,360 Yeah, I think that the easiest way to measure sweat rate is and 300 00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:56,560 the most accurate way to measure it is using a scale. 301 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,560 So if you simply measure your body weight before and after, 302 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,560 and you do a little bit of accounting as to what you drink 303 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:07,120 during your activity, then you can basically take the weight 304 00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:11,840 difference, add back the water volume that you consumed and 305 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:16,480 that amount of body weight loss where 1 kilogram is equal to 306 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:20,720 1000 mills, right? And you know, you add up the 307 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,840 rest of your fluid in mills divided by your time of exercise 308 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:29,120 is your sweat rate. And that's very, very simple to 309 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,840 understand. What's harder to understand is 310 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,360 what your sodium concentration is. 311 00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:39,040 And this bears, this is really, really important because 312 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,480 dehydration, hydration is not just about water volume. 313 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,680 It's also about electrolyte balance. 314 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,880 And so, you know, our body is trying to do 2 things. 315 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,120 It's trying to maintain or replace. 316 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,880 It wants to maintain or replace the water that we've lost, but 317 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,880 it also wants to maintain an appropriate concentration of 318 00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:00,400 sodium in our bloodstream. When we sweat, we also not just 319 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,440 lose water, but we also lose sodium. 320 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:06,080 And the sodium that we lose can be highly, highly variable. 321 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:12,640 It's, you know, probably amongst one of the top most genetically 322 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,400 variable traits and phenotypically variable traits 323 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,040 in the human species. So whereas, you know, there 324 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:24,640 might be a, a range of height, the range of sodium loss is, is 325 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,560 like, you know, threefold that, fivefold that tenfold that of 326 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,280 differences that you might see in normal adult height for a 327 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:37,040 gender. Because of that, understanding 328 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,800 how much salt you lose can be very, very important. 329 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,400 But there's one very easy way to do that beyond direct measure, 330 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:49,640 and that is simply to weigh yourself and to drink to thirst, 331 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,680 because the thirst mechanism is triggered by two basic things. 332 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,760 It's triggered by the maintenance of electrolyte 333 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:58,640 balance. So there is what's called 334 00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:02,840 hypernatremic trigger, where if your blood sodium concentration 335 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,520 goes up too high because you're losing water, then you get 336 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,040 thirsty. The other trigger is something 337 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,640 called the hypovolemic trigger. So if you're losing water and 338 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,840 your blood volume is going down. Your blood pressure goes down. 339 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:16,520 That's another trigger for thirst. 340 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,160 There are many other triggers for thirst, but those are 341 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,800 probably the most substantial. Now, assuming that during 342 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,200 exercise your blood pressure is up, then a primary trigger now 343 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,280 is going to be the maintenance of electrolyte balance. 344 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:35,080 So if I lose 1000 milligrams of sodium per liter of sweat and I 345 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:39,160 exercise for an hour on a very hot day and lose an entire liter 346 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,760 of sweat, a whole Nalgene model, right? 347 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:47,680 Because that liter of sweat at 1000 milligrams is more dilute 348 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,600 than blood, which is about 3000 milligrams of sodium per liter 349 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,080 of blood. What ends up happening is my 350 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:59,880 sodium concentration increases, I get triggered to want to 351 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:04,800 drink, and if I drank plain water I would only end up 352 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:11,560 drinking about 2/3 of a liter or 750 mills in order to satiate my 353 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:16,600 thirst or bring my electrolyte concentration back to normal 354 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:22,360 because there's not as much salt in the pool right since I've 355 00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:27,280 lost some. So what's very interesting is 356 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:32,600 that if I am drinking plain water to thirst and I am losing 357 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:38,680 a decent amount of sodium, your thirst mechanism will never get 358 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,200 you to drink more water than what you've lost. 359 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,160 Because your thirst mechanism doesn't want you to dilute out 360 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,600 your blood sodium value, doesn't want you to get hypernutrientic. 361 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,400 Diluting out your blood sodium concentration can have a ton of 362 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,880 impact on your nervous system. Sodium is essential for 363 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,280 conducting nerve signals across our body from our brain and an 364 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,160 important kind of control element. 365 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:09,640 So here's the deal. If you go out and exercise and 366 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,080 you lose a certain amount of body weight and say you're 367 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,880 drinking plain water to thirst, all you have to do to kind of 368 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,560 calibrate your sodium intake is start adding back some salt. 369 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:25,440 And eventually you'll find a point where you make your drink 370 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:30,400 mix salty enough that by drinking to thirst, there is no 371 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,920 longer a weight lost. And so there's a way to kind of 372 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,920 self titrate how much sodium you need. 373 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,040 So rather than just assuming that there's a prescriptive 374 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:45,720 amount of either sodium or water you need to drink, you can do a 375 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,520 simple experiment of weighing yourself before and after 376 00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:53,320 incrementally increasing the sodium you intake until you get 377 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:57,080 to a point where you're no longer losing body weight. 378 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,720 And if you know how much water that is and how much salt that 379 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,760 is, you know, the concentration of the sodium in your sweat in 380 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,280 theory or at least pragmatically, you know how much 381 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,120 salt you need to consume to encourage your thirst so that 382 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:14,720 you staying in both electrolyte balance as well as water 383 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,000 balance. You can also, you know, go to 384 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,880 different laboratories or you know, exercise, you know, phys 385 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,720 labs or you can come to the Scratch Labs office and we can 386 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:29,600 directly measure how much sodium you lose in your sweat and that 387 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,480 will get you in the ballpark. There are a number of different 388 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,760 devices that do it now. They range in their consistency. 389 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:42,840 I generally like the H drop, which is both a sweat rate 390 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:49,000 analysis wearable as well as a sodium concentration wearable. 391 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,240 I find that my experience with it has been that the sweat rate 392 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:59,200 is not very accurate, but that the sodium concentration is 393 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,000 within range of what we measure. So it's not a bad device, but 394 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,560 it's hit or miss. We've gotten some bad devices, 395 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,560 We've gotten some really, really good devices from them, but I 396 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,160 think that it's probably the one that I would recommend. 397 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,960 I would back up the sweat rate with a scale though. 398 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,680 And I think the very, very simple conclusion of that whole 399 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,840 little dissertation there is replace what you lose. 400 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,280 We lose salt and we lose water when we exercise. 401 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,040 We also burn fuel. If you can replace at least half 402 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,960 the fuel you're burning and replace most of the water and 403 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,960 salt that you're losing during exercise, you will perform 404 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,120 better. Right. 405 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,480 And I like how you explain this because you it's not a simple 406 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,560 concept, but it is simple to figure out for yourself. 407 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,040 It doesn't have to be some magical system. 408 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:54,560 You don't need to pay for some crazy, you know it's just figure 409 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,360 out what you lost, replace it, see how you feel. 410 00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:58,880 That's right. That's right. 411 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,080 You need some salt. You need a scale, you need 412 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,160 water. We're in a good place and in the 413 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,360 States to to have access to most of those things. 414 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,160 I think so, yes. So we've really dovetailed 415 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,320 nicely into the first topic I wanted us to talk about. 416 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,920 But here at Dor, we love to go on tangents. 417 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,360 So thank you for these excellent tangents so far. 418 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:24,800 So you, the podcast I listened to on you are very good at 419 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:29,000 explaining scientific concepts. And you know, I think back to my 420 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:34,280 college days and all of the best, smartest professors taught 421 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,840 the one O 1 level classes because if you can teach basic 422 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:44,240 concepts to undergrads, then it's that's much harder than 423 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,880 teaching advanced concepts to people who already get it. 424 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,920 So I would like you to do a little sports nutrition one O 1 425 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,920 for us because, you know, you and I understand all of these 426 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,880 terms. But you know, when I deal with 427 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,120 patients or bike fitting clients, a lot of people would 428 00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:02,640 have a, you know, minimal understanding of even what the 429 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,080 word glycogen means. So if you could just help our 430 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,640 listeners understand some of these basic terms. 431 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,080 So first, let's just start with glycogen. 432 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,720 What is it? Why do we always talk about it? 433 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,440 Why is it so important for us as endurance athletes? 434 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,360 Yeah. So glycogen is the storage form 435 00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:24,800 of carbohydrate and muscle. We have 3 primary fuels that we 436 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,560 we can use to exist. We can use fat, we can use 437 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,360 carbohydrate. And in some extreme cases we can 438 00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:36,000 break down protein and use the carbon backbone from protein to 439 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,600 fuel ourselves. And, you know, that's kind of in 440 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:43,280 a extreme starvation type of state or an extreme exercise 441 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,120 state. But primarily we use fat and 442 00:26:46,120 --> 00:26:49,080 carbohydrate to fuel. The relationship between fat and 443 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,800 carbohydrate in terms of when we use it for a fuel depends on 444 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,640 intensity. So when we're sitting here just 445 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,920 talking to one another, we're primarily using fat. 446 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:03,040 It costs more oxygen to use fat, and there are more steps in 447 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,840 utilizing fat. As we increase intensity and 448 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,920 oxygen becomes more scarce, we start to use proportionately 449 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:15,680 more carbohydrate. That carbohydrate, which is 450 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:21,400 critical for high intensity work, though, is limited because 451 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,720 the storage capacity for carbohydrate is much, much 452 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,040 smaller than the storage capacity of fat. 453 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:32,440 We could probably walk for days for, you know, a hundred 200 454 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:37,120 miles on fat, but only be able to run at a high intensity for 455 00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:40,640 20 miles on stored glycogen. And so there's a 456 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,440 disproportionate amount of fat in our body that we can use for 457 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,040 fuel, but that necessitates that we slow down and go very slow. 458 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:52,000 Whereas if you're a competitor, you need that carbohydrate to be 459 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,560 able to go hard and to go fast. The other thing is, is that we 460 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,200 can't completely utilize all of the fat we have unless we 461 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,360 maintain the metabolic pathways that help us to burn fat. 462 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,240 And those metabolic pathways are dependent upon the breakdown of 463 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,560 carbohydrate as a substrate because that carbohydrate 464 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,840 provides some of the backbone material for those biochemical 465 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,680 pathways. One simple analogy is this is 466 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:24,080 that carbohydrate is like the Wick and fat is like the wax, 467 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,680 and you can't burn the wax without a little bit of Wick. 468 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,640 A Wick, if you had a bunch of it and only burned that would burn 469 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,640 really fast and really, really hot. 470 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,640 The wax is more ample. It burns for a very, very long 471 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,360 time. But if you don't have a little 472 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,200 bit of that Wick to burn it, then you just have a big puddle 473 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,520 of melted wax, right? That that isn't being used for 474 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:54,120 any useful work. With that in mind, glycogen, 475 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,680 again, is how we store that carbohydrate. 476 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,040 It's a very, very complex molecule. 477 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:06,600 It's a molecule that is comprised of individual glucose 478 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:11,480 units, which is the basic currency for fuel for the human 479 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,760 body, for all cells. That glucose you can think of as 480 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,800 a little Lego piece. You can think of different types 481 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:25,840 of starches like sugar, for example, sucrose AS2 Lego pieces 482 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,240 click together one say blue, one say yellow. 483 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,840 There's different types of of simple sugars, glucose and 484 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,600 fructose. You can think of something like 485 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:42,560 maltodextrin as a straight chain of say blue Legos just all 486 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,760 connected together. These glucose units, in a long, 487 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:49,800 long Choo Choo train, you can think of a very complex starch 488 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,320 like a potato, and something that has more branches. 489 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:58,760 You can think of muscle glycogen as a bunch of Lego pieces all 490 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,840 stuck together in a big old ball. 491 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,760 So it's in essence maybe one of the most efficient ways to get a 492 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:10,120 bunch of Lego pieces crunched together into a single little 493 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,000 space. And as the body needs glucose, 494 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,480 it breaks off these individual glucose units off that glycogen 495 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,440 molecule at a very, very high rate to be able to fuel the 496 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,240 body. What is very interesting though 497 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,120 is that we use the glycogen in the muscle that we are 498 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,680 contracting. So even though I have glycogen 499 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:35,160 in my arms, if I am cycling and using my legs, I can't use the 500 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,560 glycogen or carbohydrate stored in my arm. 501 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,240 I can only use it in the muscle that is contracting because 502 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,760 there's a direct pathway where that glucose breaks down and 503 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,720 feeds the active muscle. We can't break down glycogen and 504 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,000 release that glucose from another muscle circulated 505 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,720 through blood to that active muscle. 506 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,560 And so it's ultimately limited. The only place where that 507 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,920 happens is through the glycogen stored in liver. 508 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,200 And so when we have a good breakfast or a meal before 509 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,400 exercise, we replenish that liver glycogen. 510 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,320 And the liver can be a storehouse for glucose along 511 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,320 with muscle glycogen. The Lego analogy is excellent. 512 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,520 I love that. And so next, if we can talk a 513 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,520 little bit about protein. So we all know we should eat 514 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,800 protein and we probably don't eat enough of it. 515 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,080 But why is protein important for endurance athletes? 516 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,160 And two, we've also all heard about this recovery window after 517 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,840 exercise, like first 30 minutes, you've got to get some protein 518 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,720 in you, some carbs in you. Well, why is that? 519 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:37,600 And is there really a recovery window? 520 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,560 Do I really need to freak out about getting it in in 30 521 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,720 minutes or is there a longer window? 522 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,880 Well. First and foremost, protein. 523 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,360 They're the, they're the building backbone of all of our 524 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,320 structure, our muscle, of our, you know, much of our tissue is 525 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,320 ultimately protein. And when, you know, we exercise 526 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,480 or even if we don't exercise, we are constantly turning over 527 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,520 cells, we're constantly turning over protein. 528 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,160 And so we need a little bit of protein just as a substrate to 529 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,640 replace the broken bricks in our house, right? 530 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:17,200 That's ultimately it. But, you know, you might have 50 531 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,080 kilograms worth of bricks in your house. 532 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:25,920 You probably only need to take in, you know, 50 grams of 533 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:31,200 protein, not kilograms. So, you know, a lot less to 534 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:36,320 replace the bricks that are turning over in endurance 535 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:42,200 exercise where you might get in a severe energy deficit and you 536 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,120 might start using protein as a fuel. 537 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,280 That's a state that some, you know, people may may have 538 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,600 experienced. They'll smell a lot of urea or 539 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,400 in their sweat, which is like literally their sweat smells 540 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,320 like pee. It's gross. 541 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,080 If you've exercised long enough to break down protein, you'll 542 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,520 smell that ammonia in your sweat. 543 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:08,960 You'll also smell it in your urine more so than than normal. 544 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,720 In those cases, you might need to increase your protein intake 545 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:17,840 to 1.5, even 2G per kilogram. The only other situation is if 546 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,040 you're trying to build muscle mass, but that also takes the 547 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,960 stimulus of strength training. So if you are in a strength 548 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,200 training mode and you're lifting enough weights that especially 549 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,040 eccentric loading where you're getting a little bit of damage 550 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,280 to tissue and that, you know, muscle is beginning to remodel, 551 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,840 you may need more protein so that you have the bricks to 552 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,840 build that the new house. Outside of that though, for most 553 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,440 endurance athletes, it's carbohydrate that primarily 554 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:46,960 rules in the amount of carbohydrate you need. 555 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:52,400 You know, maybe say loading for a big endurance event a few days 556 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,760 before at 10 grams per kilogram is 10 times more than the 557 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,720 protein that you might actually need. 558 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,680 You know, with respect to a recovery window, yes, there is a 559 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:08,199 recovery window and maybe the idea of recovery window is not 560 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,560 as good of a term as a refueling window. 561 00:34:13,159 --> 00:34:19,520 One thing to realize is that glucose, carbohydrate can only 562 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,280 get back into muscle to resynthesize glycogen. 563 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:29,199 If you have a hormone called insulin in your bloodstream, 564 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:35,360 insulin can basically allow a cell to recapture that Lego 565 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:40,120 piece or that glucose. The only other thing that can do 566 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:45,960 that is a contracting muscle. So if you are exercising and 567 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,840 you're consuming a lot of carbohydrate, the mere fact that 568 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,840 a muscle is contracting can pull glucose into the muscle without 569 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:58,840 the need for insulin. That effect creates a 570 00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:04,680 sensitivity or enhances the sensitivity to insulin post 571 00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:08,960 exercise. So towards the end of workout, 572 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,640 if I eat a lot and I'm still exercising, I'll pull more of 573 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:17,800 that glucose into the muscles that are contracting than other 574 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,680 tissue. And so I'll preferentially 575 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:24,720 refuel the muscles that were, you know, depleted after 576 00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:28,920 exercise up to say, an hour, hour and a half after exercise, 577 00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:32,720 the food that I eat which raises blood sugar, which causes 578 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,880 insulin to be released, that effective insulin will be 579 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,880 stronger on the muscles that have been active. 580 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:45,240 And so more of the food that I eat after exercise goes back to 581 00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:48,760 the specific muscles that were used during exercise. 582 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,680 One way to think of it is the refrigerator versus the freezer, 583 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,520 right? Where the refrigerator is the 584 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,320 muscle and the freezer is kind of everything else that can 585 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:04,400 store say fat or carbohydrate, but that it takes a long time to 586 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,720 thaw. If I am sedentary and I haven't 587 00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:13,000 exercised for a long time and I eat 1000 calories, insulin will 588 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,360 have effect of all the cells in my body. 589 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,440 Insulin will open up the freezer as well as the refrigerator and 590 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,560 pack all those calories in preferentially. 591 00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:26,760 But after exercise, especially immediately after exercise, 592 00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:33,080 insulin will primarily open up the refrigerator and not just 593 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,840 the whole entire refrigerator, but the refrigerator that leads 594 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:41,640 to the to to muscles that were actually used during exercise. 595 00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:44,560 Another great analogy. I really like that. 596 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:49,800 Thank you for that description. I know that we have a time limit 597 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,840 here, so I have a ton of questions for you, but I think 598 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,080 that one of the more interesting ones for our listeners, and you 599 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,080 alluded to this earlier. So a lot of us are marathon 600 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,320 runners who are on this podcast or who listen, and we've all 601 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,320 experienced bonking at some point. 602 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,160 So what happens from a physiological perspective when 603 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,760 someone bonks? And why in the marathon does it 604 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,040 seem to always happen at mile 18 to 20? 605 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:21,840 Yeah, first bonking is when our blood sugar drops and we become 606 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,280 effectively hypoglycemic. Our brain and our nervous system 607 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,240 can only use glucose as a fuel source. 608 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,680 So even though our muscles, as I said earlier, can use both fat 609 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:36,240 and carbohydrate as well as protein, our brains can only use 610 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:41,160 glucose or broken bits of glucose as a fuel source, say 611 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:46,920 like lactate. When our blood sugar drops, our 612 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:53,000 brain basically falls apart. And when our brain doesn't get 613 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,080 the fuel it needs, when our nervous system doesn't get the 614 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,840 fuel it needs, there is this idea that our brain shuts us 615 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:02,520 down. And so as long as you're 616 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,920 hypoglycemic, even if you have plenty of fuel on board, you're 617 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,960 not going to be able to exercise at a high capacity because your 618 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:14,160 brain is going to govern that intensity #2 the reason why it 619 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:19,160 happens At mile 18 to 20, again, as a gross generalization, we 620 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,240 burn about 100 calories for every mile that we go. 621 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:27,360 So at 18 to 20 miles, that's 1800 to 2000 calories. 622 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:33,200 And in lower leg muscle mass in general, people store about 1800 623 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,400 to 2000 calories worth of glycogen. 624 00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:39,800 The marathon is an event where people are trying to run the 625 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,520 distance as hard as they can, which means that they're 626 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,680 primarily burning carbohydrate. So at mile 18 to 20 you can 627 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,800 expect that someone is going to be between 600 to 800 calories 628 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,560 short of a Happy meal. One way that you can improve 629 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,280 that is by greatly increasing the carbohydrate you take in the 630 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,640 week before that marathon so that you can go up from 1800 or 631 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:08,720 2000 to maybe 2200 or 2300 right calories worth of glycogen. 632 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:13,760 The other thing that you can do is you can onboard probably or 633 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:18,920 in the range of 400 to 500 calories right at the start of 634 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,760 the marathon. And this was a tactic that we 635 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,520 had developed with Gwen Jorgensen when she was kind of 636 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:30,920 between her triathlon world and her kind of marathon stint with 637 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,640 Nike Bauerman. That's how the Super high carb 638 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,200 product was actually developed. It was developed for Gwen to 639 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:43,400 figure a way to give her an extra 100 grams or 400 calories 640 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:47,280 right at the start line so that she didn't have to fuel at all 641 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,360 and only needed to hydrate during the marathon. 642 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:56,640 The marathon is so intense that you're breathing at a rate that 643 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,080 you can't even really drink or eat. 644 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,120 So another tactic, and I've seen this done before with elite 645 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,920 marathoners, is as they come through a feed zone to get those 646 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,240 precious calories and that hydration in, they literally 647 00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:13,160 stop. They drink, they consume their 648 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,040 fuel, and then they start hauling ass. 649 00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:19,680 Maybe they lose 10 seconds. That they gain back that extra 5 650 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,080 to 6 miles. Oh yeah, and you see that if you 651 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:28,600 watch Pona or Niece, all of the top athletes are walking the aid 652 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,720 stations just to get their calories in. 653 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:32,400 That's right. That's right. 654 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:34,840 Yeah, that's right. So there you go. 655 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,200 All relates back to, you know, to glycogen. 656 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,680 And glycogen is the key. All right, well, we will get you 657 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:45,360 to your next appointment on time. 658 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,960 So if people want to find out more about Scratch, just go to 659 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:54,640 www.scratch.com. You've got all your nutrition 660 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,040 products on there. You've got links to the books I 661 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:03,160 believe, and Scratch is kind enough to give our listeners a 662 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,160 discount code on their first purchase on the Scratch website. 663 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,440 It's just Doctors of Running all caps. 664 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,960 We'll throw that in the show notes so you guys can use it. 665 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:14,880 And as always, leave us a review. 666 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,840 We love hearing from you and maybe we can convince Dr. Lim to 667 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,120 join us again and maybe answer some of your guys's questions. 668 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,560 Yeah, I'd be very, very happy to do so. 669 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,480 This is a rabbit hole and it's a lot of fun to talk about. 670 00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:33,080 It is well, thanks again so much and hope to see you again soon. 671 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:34,800 OK. Thank you.