Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Doctors of Running Podcast,
where we, a group of Doctors of Physical Therapy, discuss the
art and science of running and the stuff that we put on our
feet. Today at the round table, we
have the founder of Doctors of Running, Dr. Matthew Klein, as
well as Dr. David Salas, and I am also here.
I'm Nathan Brown. I'll be facilitating today, but
I think we have maybe one of the more exciting announcements
we've ever had as a team. As you all know at this point,
we've been partnering with Rabbit — but we finally get to
drop some gear that we are doing in a collaboration with them.
We have been so excited to be able to do this and create gear
that's actually good to run in. And so we are going to be having
a pre-sale for the Doctors of Running and Rabbit collab
apparel that's going to be open from June 3rd to June 17th.
And then the gear, if you order it, will ship usually during the
week of July 6th. So we got three of the kind of
mainstay stuff from Rabbit that we just love.
I've said it before, I'll say it again.
The EZT and the EZT long sleeve are maybe the most comfortable
materials I've ever had in a shirt.
So we got the short sleeve — what I'm wearing.
We also got the long sleeve. That's what Matt is in.
And we also got the Go-To Hoodie, which is what David is
wearing right now. All those will be available for
the EZ T collection. Those are going to be in both
men's and women's styles and colors.
And then for the hoodie, that's unisex sizing.
But we're super thrilled to have this collab going and hope that
you jump on this train with us. And if you've been looking for
some Doctors of Running apparel that you can actually run in and
use — but this stuff is versatile, so you can use it for
chilling too — please, please jump in with us.
We're super excited and thankful to Rabbit that they are
launching this with us. You'll see links to where you
can purchase this all over our website, in show notes, all that
kind of stuff. So just keep an eye out and jump
on it quick because we've only got it open during this pre-sale
window. So thanks to Rabbit for making
this happen. We've been super excited about
it and more stuff to come. So let's jump forward into our
in-for-testing segment. What have you all been running
in? I can go first because I'm not
running. So...
That's so true. Do you want to talk about that?
Yeah, I mean, it's my own fault, right?
Like, I wasn't running that much.
I got super excited about Boston and I was like, yeah, let's do
it. We're talking maybe 20-mile
weeks — 20 to 30 mile weeks as I got closer.
And it's the weird thing where my body is very capable of doing
the thing. It's just I don't have the
adaptations to adequately recover from it.
And so in the month leading up to it, you know, I had like a
19-miler, a 23-miler, a really hilly 16 — and honestly, those
were probably my longest efforts going into the race.
And I figured, "Oh, I can go 23. I can go 26.
Like, I'm fine." Which, for the most part, I was
— as far as physically being able to do the thing.
Yeah, you completed it. But it was a lot of acute
overload going into the race, and then you have the race
itself. Short sleep, travel — probably
lump a lot of that in too. And then I get home.
I took a week off from running. I was not sore anymore probably
about three-ish days out, but I decided to wait a little bit
longer. I started running again maybe
about a week or so after. And I think I strung together
like a 9 and a 12 miler or something.
No, 13. Yeah, a 9 and a 13, like pretty
much back to back — and again, I still wasn't even running that
much before that. My foot started hurting
basically immediately — like the next day, it would have been a
Saturday run, and then Sunday, probably Monday or Tuesday-ish.
It started hurting. And then I took like a week off,
and then I kind of got a little excited and went to the track.
And then it flared again. And I'm just chilling now.
So it'll be a week, I think, on Tuesday that I've taken off
since the last time. But I'm really sorry for the
trail fans out there, because I was actually really excited to
get in some of those trail shoes and get some of those reviews
out. So I'm heavily delayed on those
at the moment. But once I get going again, I'll
be sure to go slow and steady, get the consistency back up, and
do it the right way this time so that we don't have to have this
happen again. And fingers crossed, I'll be
running this week. I could still feel it a little
bit. I was originally thinking of
running tomorrow, but I'm not going to.
I already just made that decision to call it off right
before recording. But yeah, it'll come back
around. As far as testing too — I also
want to get a tech review. I got a new watch.
Oh yeah. Shout out to the Montecito
Trails Foundation. They were doing a short film
screening — not just for one film.
It was a series of films shown, but my friend Nick and they were
hosting it, and it was at a local brewing company — super
wholesome event, a bunch of people coming together and
watching films together. They had some raffles and stuff,
and I entered, and I ended up winning a Suunto Run.
So I would like to get a tech review out for that too.
But I haven't run in the darn watch because I haven't been
running. But I've been playing around
with it and got things customized and stuff.
So hopefully we can get a tech review out for that coming up
pretty soon too. But yeah, that's kind of what
happened. It was just the overload that we
were talking about. It doesn't matter — like I said
on the last episode I was on — eating, sleeping, yada yada — if
it's a mechanical overload, it's a mechanical overload, and if
your tissue's not ready for it, it's not ready for it.
So yeah, we manifested that one. Go team.
We're all human. Can I ask you some reflective
questions on it? Yeah — if it doesn't require
that kind of reflection. Boston was awesome.
No, 100%. I think my question is more two
different sides of it. The first question I had was —
if you could identify a factor that maybe could have mitigated
it: do you think there was anything you could have changed
afterwards that would have helped?
Because you kind of made it through.
Okay — if you could go back, what would maybe have been a
smarter move for your post-marathon re-engagement with
running? Are there ways you would have
done that differently? Oh, just start smaller.
I mean, I think I did like a 3-mile run, and then I did a 13,
and then a 9. And it's kind of tough too
because a lot of my background was competitive running, and a
lot of my friends run far and they run fast.
And for me to run with my friends — Oh, so you did that
with them? Yeah, but it wasn't their fault
at all. It was me.
Like, I started the run and I was like, "Oh, I might go 5 or
6," and then we were that deep and I was like, "Yeah, I feel
fine. We can keep going.
I'm good." You know?
Dude, that is my experience with my friends too, because they
were doing the ultra stuff. We talked about this on the pod
last fall — they were doing the ultra stuff.
I was building pretty decently, but very fast because they were
running long. They'd been training for it for
a while. I was like, "Maybe I'll just do
it with them." And then lo and behold, stress
fracture for me. And I think there's something in
there that you said that happens to a lot of runners I work with
— and for myself — where it's like, in the run, I feel fine.
Like, I went last fall and I did the 20-miler.
That wasn't the problem because I couldn't feel it in the
moment. It was kind of that recovery
part afterwards. So I think there's a level of
discipline I really have to work on personally — and that's why I
have a running coach right now, because I don't have enough
discipline on my own, so they tell me not to run more.
And it's working right now, because I know I'd be running
like crazy. But I was just curious on that
side of things. So.
Yeah, and that's funny because I'm usually not the one to run
too much. I'm usually on the lower end of
mileage. But yeah.
I mean, when you're not running that much to begin with, then
any kind of running beyond a certain capacity becomes a lot
of running — such as running a marathon.
My second question for you was going to be about how you
decided how much time to take off before you try running
again, because I think a lot of runners run into that scenario.
It's like, something starts hurting.
You're not exactly sure what it is — or you even do know what it
is — but you're trying to figure out, "Okay, how many days off
should I take?" What's been your personal
approach in this, and how are you choosing to take a certain
amount of time off? Well, there was this review for
the Saucony Triumph 24 and this other review for the Brooks
Ghost 18 that I really wanted to get done so that I could do
these trail reviews. I'm not going to lie.
That had a heavy, heavy influence when I was planning my
mileage and coming back. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But no, I mean — make sure I'm not sore and day-to-day things
are easy. Like, none of that feels
difficult or whatever. Going up and downstairs totally
normal. Everything feels like normal,
normal. And then I think I did try one
run where I started and my quads and my calves got a little
crampy on me and I just shut it down right away.
And then waited a few more days and things felt okay.
So I went for like a 3-mile shakeout or something and that
went okay. And then I think I did another
3-miler and then I was like, "Okay, it feels fine."
And then I just scaled it way too quick.
If I had just stayed at the 3, I probably would have been fine.
But I wanted more. I mean, more like — now that you
have pain and you've taken time off — how are you deciding when
you go back and try again? Oh, I mean, similar factors,
right? I want to feel good day to day.
I want to make sure — like, I just went on a walk with my wife
before coming on, and I could feel my foot a little bit
towards the end of the walk. And it's like, okay, if I can
feel my foot at the end of a walk, I probably shouldn't be
running tomorrow. So that was kind of the deciding
factor, even though it felt relatively normal the whole day
up until that point. So I don't know — get the
day-to-day things first, and then maybe just go for a short
mile or two. And if it feels good there, just
slowly scale and really just get the consistency back up.
I mean, that's kind of what I'm looking at.
I don't really have any objective return-to-run
measures. I'm not going to put myself
through any kind of formal screening of whether or not I'm
going to go run. Right.
And to be fair, there is no
official evidence-based return-to-run screening program.
It's still theoretical, and there's some decent stuff in the
bone stress fracture literature. But in terms of a general
overuse injury — you'd have to have your own system set up.
And plus, I figure if I can return to run on a broken foot
slash toe — I mean... to be fair, that was not one of my
brighter moments. And second of all, it was a
distal digit that I was able to unload, and that probably has
caused some lasting permanent damage.
So that's something I'm going to pay for at some point.
True. But yeah — and you could
probably see the consequences. Like, if you see my right arm
here shifting a little bit, I am pressing into my heel and like
my plantar fascia a little bit. And if I'm still fidgeting with
it and playing with it, I'm not running.
And especially this time — this is not a second time, right?
Where I kind of like sneak back in.
It's like, no, no, no. Let's just hard reset it.
I have nothing on the calendar right now.
I don't have a thing to prove to anyone.
So I'm just like, let's get this good.
We'll come back and then we'll get that Inov-8 and that Agravic
— and the Salomon Ultra Glide too.
I've got the list in my head. I'm like, and I know the routes
I want to run. And I'm like, gosh, I just want
to start. But it's all good.
Just one thing at a time. More important than the shoe
reviews. You are more important than shoe
reviews. Yeah.
I've got a few that I've been running in.
The first is the Puma Magnify Max 2.
I've talked about it a little bit, but I've gotten more time
in it and I really liked it. I think — oh, you have it too
now, Matt. Great.
It's been really enjoyable and smooth for me.
On the spectrum from firm to soft, it's on the middle to firm
side of things. Like, it's not a squishy pillow
— which I actually appreciated about it.
So I've just been a fan of this shoe.
I've used it for a lot of walking around too.
And it's worked really well. I think for people who want
something that operates off of a pretty gradual but smooth
rocking platform for walking as well — if they want to have
something that decreases demand on their big toe or on their
Achilles — I think this could actually potentially help with
that, in terms of the stiffness that does exist within the shoe.
So I've liked this one overall. Nothing fancy, but just very
serviceable as a trainer — really, really been good.
Do you want to say anything else about it, Matt, before I go to
my next one? I am enjoying this shoe so much
more than the first version. I think they cleaned up just a
little bit of the rear foot — for those who are watching, I'm
sorry, I hit my microphone with the shoe — I'm sorry, I hit my
microphone with the shoe. There was just a lot more
posterior flare in version one that made the shoe feel super
slappy. I did not enjoy that — which
Andrea did, because she doesn't land there.
Whereas this has been toned down a little bit in the rear foot.
Again, it's not perfect, but it's better.
And then just a much smoother transition.
I'm getting a little bit more out of the shoe.
I'd also agree it's not the softest thing on the market, but
you're definitely aware you are off the ground by a decent
amount. The upper is also like — this is
a knit, right? Am I crazy on that?
It's like a mesh. Mesh-knit, whatever.
It's pretty comfortable. So I've definitely enjoyed that.
I'm hoping to get some more miles out of these and see if
they last. Good.
Another shoe that I have a video out on — it's the Salomon Gravel
Concept shoe, and it was a limited edition shoe, so I won't
take too much time on it. But I will say a couple things.
One, I really loved the midsole. It's a really nice, poppy,
little bit soft — but it just compresses and rebounds with
you. That's super nice.
And so I hope they bring this midsole into other shoes as they
keep going. I mean, the shoe is at a pretty
crazy price point for the type of performance.
You done it. I think it's $250, and it really
is meant to be this kind of hybrid super trainer — so kind
of a super shoe trainer for the road and super shoe trainer for
the trails. I don't think it has enough
stability for technical trails and doesn't have enough grip for
it, but it works really well for that road-to-trail type stuff.
The other odd thing about the shoe is the flex point is like
right in the middle of the shoe. There's a plate in here, but I'm
guessing it's only a forefoot plate or something.
I just find that really bizarre. To be fair — like I said — I
have absolutely loved running in this.
Like, in terms of running experience, it's been really
enjoyable. I like that there's a good
cutout here through the rear foot, so that does splay out a
little bit and give a little bit of stability on the slightly
softer foam. The upper is actually really
nice too. So there are a lot of things to
like about it. I'm just curious what their plan
is, because they did a limited edition run — so I don't know if
they're testing the market just to see if people are interested,
or if it's like, "Hey, let's try this.
Let's see how people respond to the midsole and let's put it
into more stuff." I hope they put it into more
stuff because the midsole is really enjoyable, really fun.
And like I said, I got a video out on that if you want more of
my thoughts on it. The other shoe I've been getting
some miles in is the new ASICS Novablast 6, and they've made
some pretty significant changes from a structure and composition
standpoint in the midsole. I also created a video that will
probably be out by the time this comes out — or at least close to
it — comparing this to previous versions, because I've really
liked the Novablast series. But what they did is they
created this podular design in the forefoot that is supposed to
enhance that trampoline effect the Novablast has kind of become
known for — where they had that pod, and just in terms of the
geometry, you would bounce off of it.
They now took that podular area and they put FlightFoam Turbo²
in that, and you can see it in the bottom of the shoe — but it
actually extends all the way to the entire width of the forefoot
in its full thickness. So it goes all the way up to
where your foot's contacting the ground.
So in theory, this thing would be a lot more poppy, a little
bit more pep. But I don't know why, but I
haven't experienced that. It just feels like another
Novablast — maybe a little bit firmer than the other version,
which doesn't really make a lot of sense.
Even in the heel where there's not that pod — it just feels
firmer. But it's the same other midsole
compound, same stack — a lot of stuff is the same.
They just redid this dual-density midsole in the
forefoot. So if you like the Novablast,
you'll probably enjoy running in this shoe.
I think that's safe to say. Matt, did you — you've gotten
some miles in it? Yeah, I've got almost 30, 40
miles in this shoe. I just did a long run in it.
It really took me a second to get over the initial geometry —
just because the way it's set up, there's a heel area, and
just the way things are designed, there's a little bit
more material on the lateral side than the medial.
And it was kind of weird because if you look at it — yeah,
there's a crease point on the lateral side.
So it should collapse laterally — but there's also this like
superior lateral flare right here where — not in the lower
part of the midsole, it's up higher — and it feels like it's
pushing me inward immediately, but it's not at the same time.
So I think what happened is — it looks like they widened the
sole, and Andrea said it felt like she was in a ditch.
Yeah. I asked them about that.
They didn't try to change the ground contact point.
I asked ASICS about that. But yeah, keep going.
So what is this thing? So yeah, they played with the
geometries out here, but not the ground contact.
Right. Right.
But what is this for? What is this for?
They didn't really talk about it.
I could definitely feel it when I'm running that it kind of
pushes me inward a little bit, but I think there are also just
some other components to this shoe where — I think the FF
Blast Max is a tiny bit firmer than the previous version, and
that's just how it feels underfoot.
The FlightFoam Turbo² does take a second to break in.
I think on my long run, I kind of enjoyed it — not from a speed
perspective, because like many Novablasts, this is a very
slappy shoe. I think it's that idea of trying
to trampoline you off the forefoot.
Some people are going to like that.
I don't, honestly. It broke in a little bit on the
long run, but it just feels really hard on my anterior
tibialis and all the muscles on the anterior side of my shin —
just controlling that plantarflexion on the way down.
But yeah, it's improved. It's definitely a Novablast.
It feels a little bit lighter. It's just oddly — it took a
while to break in. Now I can appreciate it.
Which kind of aligns with the Superblast 2 a little bit —
where the Superblast 2 kind of found its sweet spot a little
bit later for me in terms of how many miles I got on it.
Yeah, it's definitely not a shoe you put on and go, "Wow."
It's like, "Huh. Okay."
And then, you know, if you're a fan of the Novablast series,
you're going to like it. It's definitely a little bit
different in terms of the geometry, but the core component
is still there. And I think Novablast fans will
like it. I — man.
Yeah — what I like is that they're trying to lean into what
I've loved about the Novablast. So I think conceptually they
have a lot to build off of, and maybe as I get even more miles
on this it'll come alive a little bit.
And I think the other thing ASICS has done in the past —
they didn't specifically speak to why the shaping is exactly as
it is. They sculpted it a certain way
on purpose, I'm sure. But it's not the first time
they've sculpted midsoles. Like, I think back to the first
GlideRide — they had a big concavity on the inside, so it's
kind of bulbous on the inside, and then it had that V shape on
the lateral side. And you would move a little bit
laterally in that shoe. It had a medial bias.
So it would push you to the outside.
And so they do that. They play around with stuff.
And I wonder exactly what they were thinking there.
Yeah. It's a Superblast 3.
I have one other shoe that I've been running in, but I can pull
a David and I can't talk about it right now.
So it was awesome. First run in, I was like, "This
would be one of my favorite shoes this year."
Somebody's got to not be able to talk about something.
Exactly. Matt, you got anything else?
I have two other things. I have the Mizuno NeoVista 3,
which I am partially enjoying and partially not.
I am really enjoying the new midsole.
They've got some really good sculpting — I think this is one
of the best versions of the midsole material yet.
Really liking it, bouncy. It is a trainer, but I would
definitely put this in the performance trainer category —
where it can handle easy miles but also does very well doing
some tempo stuff, tempo run kind of efforts.
I did tempo on the treadmill and I was like, "Oh, I'm really
enjoying this." The upper is definitely
streamlined except for one area. It's probably the most snug of
the NeoVista models thus far. A lot of them had a lot of
stretch, a little bit wider. This one fits much more snug and
low volume. So I can appreciate that because
the upper holds a lot better. And I think they really got it —
except for the heel. And what I'm struggling with is
the same thing I struggle with in the NeoZen 2 — is the way the
padding and the heel is designed.
Not a stiff heel counter, so that's fine.
It should work for me. But the padding is thin right at
the back of the calcaneus, and there's this big pod that shoots
out and presses directly on my Achilles tendon.
I really don't like that. So I am running through that.
It is aggravating that. But outside of that, it's a
great shoe. Just that little extra piece
right here that's just irritating.
I mean, I'm trying to figure out — can I break it in?
Is it going to get better? But I'm getting miles on it.
So that's the only thing I'm not liking.
Everything else is really interesting.
Some lateral bias because of the way the lateral piece here is
sculpted — which just collapses a lot more on the lateral side
than medial. And yeah, just another
interesting shoe and take on the NeoVista series.
Awesome. Oh, and...
I have the Puma Deviate Nitro Pure.
Yeah — they have a different version of this called the
Impure, and it's really just — I'm just kidding.
This is an interesting shoe.
I really enjoy it. I was jogging around in it.
I just got it today. We took Isabel to the park.
My legs are fried. I've done two long runs in a row
because Regina wanted to do a long run, then she wanted to do
a group long run. So my legs are a little trash,
but Isabel was running around and I was jogging around in
this, playing soccer with her, and I'm like, "I'm really
enjoying this." I'm enjoying a non-plated shoe
with a little better foam. I'm like, "Yeah, I'm looking
forward to trying this for a workout."
But so far, so good. The fit is a little bit low
volume. I'm definitely getting a lot of
pressure on the top of my big toe.
So I'm assuming the upper is probably going to need to break
in, or people are probably going to need to consider a half size
up. But outside of that pressure,
it's fine. So, yeah — very interesting so
far. Very excited for it.
Yeah, that's one I'm eager to try out as well because I think
it's $150. Oh gosh — I hate to say it, but
like, that's on the cheaper end of trainers right now.
And I think there are other shoes that when I've heard you
talk about it and others talk about it — I'm wondering if it's
like an Adizero SL kind of shoe. Is that the right comparison?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. For that shoe?
Yeah, that's kind of the category where companies are
competing. You've got the Pure now from
Puma, the Evo SL from Adidas, the Azura from Saucony, the
Elite — I mean, I know — I'd also say the FuelCell Rebel from
New Balance. I think that fits a little bit
more in this category. I know why you said that, David.
I totally get it. I think the Rebel might fit a
little bit more in that lightweight trainer, performance
trainer type category. Although some people are
probably going to race in that. Yeah, the performance — it's
nice to see the non-plated performance trainer make a
return, because I'm not being negative about plates, but we
don't need one in every single shoe.
It's nice to have just a simple "get out the door" shoe.
If you're new to running, something you might want to run
a little quicker in — like, experience a lighter shoe
without having to drop $300 on something crazy and go, "Hey,
can I still run quick in this?" And I'm totally on a tangent
here. I have not run in a
carbon-plated super shoe for like a month plus now.
Just after the race that didn't go great because I was sick.
I've just been doing everything in non-super shoes.
I mean — it was — the Endorphin Elite 3 is going to work great
for some people. It's too unstable for me on a
hilly course when I'm sick. But yeah.
I've just been doing everything in non-super shoes, right?
Super trainers occasionally, but like — it's been an interesting
experience. Great.
But more on that later. Well, that's what we got in for
testing. We always want to thank Scratch
Labs for fueling the in-for-testing segment and what
we've been talking about. Yes, Matt.
Okay, so I did go buy my own Scratch stuff.
The — what is it? The cucumber lime?
Is that the flavor they sent? That is...
I judge people so hard. They were like, "I like cucumber
water," and I'm like, ugh. Gross.
Not the cucumber — not the cucumber water.
It's the people — I'm like, "Oh, gross."
But I'm just kidding. But now I'm like, this is so
good and so refreshing. So I have also bought more of
that. Better than watermelon?
Yeah, actually. Yeah.
Because I'm not running. I think it's cucumber lime.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cucumber lime.
Yeah. So it's great on runs.
The watermelon's also great. I have tons of bags of that
because I bought a bunch, but yeah, man, it's really
refreshing. And it's been very helpful
because one of the things I don't do very well is hydrate
here in Oregon, because I'm like, "Well, it rains
occasionally. So why should I do it?"
Yeah, so just a half scoop — and I know Scratch has a non-caloric
version — a half scoop is really helpful for getting me to
hydrate throughout the day. So yeah, it's really good.
And I am very embarrassed that I made fun of people that like
this. So maybe that's karma.
I love to hear it. I'll try it when I go back.
Well, if you want to try it, I'll bring some when I come to
work in a couple days. Nice.
Tomorrow's Memorial Day — not going to be there.
Yes. If you are wanting to try out
any Scratch Labs stuff for any of your hydration, nutrition,
in-run or out-of-run needs, you can go to scratchlabs.com.
You can use the code DOCTORSOFRUNNING — that would
get you 20% off your first order.
But today we need to do a mailbag.
Mailbags are always a good time. We've got lots of really fun
questions from people all over the place in different phases of
life, and we get to talk through some of the things that they've
got impressed on their minds because of what's going on in
their lives. And we're going to talk about it
here. This isn't medical advice.
We're just trying to use these topics as a launching point to
talk about different ideas and how we may approach them
hypothetically. So let's jump into it.
The first question is from Marius, and they're asking this.
"I wanted to ask your advice on replacing the Brooks Hyperion 2.
I really love the shoe because of its versatility, firm and
direct ride, and close-to-the-ground feeling.
I use it for a wide range of faster running — from 5K pace
workouts to tempo runs and sometimes even easier runs.
So roughly about 2:30 per kilometer to 5 minutes per
kilometer pace. I also have a normal daily
trainer for easy and recovery runs.
So the replacement doesn't necessarily need to cover all of
my easy mileage as well. However, I value the Hyperion 2
because it feels controlled and natural enough to handle a broad
range of paces. I was thinking about the Adidas
Adizero Adios 9 as a possible replacement, but would love to
hear your thoughts and what you would recommend.
Would you recommend the Adios 9 or something different?
But if one shoe can't replace it, they would also be open to a
two-shoe setup — one shoe for the really faster workouts, one
more versatile daily option that could keep that direct contact
and natural feel. What do y'all think?"
Matt's holding up the shoe. I am.
Rest in peace, Hyperion 2. There's not a lot of stuff on
the market anymore like that. I'm curious, David, Nathan — can
you think of anything that's remotely similar?
Topo Cyclone 3. That's all I got.
That's literally what I had. I wrote it down beforehand.
I'm like, "Topo Cyclone 3 was..." like the closest
comparison I can think of where it's a relatively natural feel,
good foam, contained, can run really fast in it.
And the Hyperion — here's the challenge — the Hyperion didn't
have like a fancy, magical foam. You said Spectre, right?
No, no — that's the Cyclone. No, no, no.
Cyclone. Cyclone.
The Cyclone does have a super foam.
Yeah, it's PEBA, but it's like — it's modern.
It's a PEBA foam. It is.
And it's not that — it's not that soft though.
It feels like a normal foam. I mean, to me it doesn't.
But — okay, fine. Cyclone, not Spectre — where the
Spectre is much higher up. The Cyclone is like, what?
I don't even know if it's over 30.
It's definitely in the lower stack range.
So I think you two are right. I think that might be the
closest thing. The only challenge to that — and
correct me if I'm wrong — the Hyperion is an 8-millimeter
drop. Where that you're going to get a
little bit lower. So if you're going to make that
transition, be aware that you're going to have to let your calves
and Achilles tendons get used to that stuff.
The Adios 9 is very similar. It's much lighter.
I have done tons of miles in the shoe and I feel very embarrassed
that I never actually went and reviewed it.
I really need to do that. It's been awesome.
It's a very simple shoe. It's definitely priced a little
bit higher than what it is, in my opinion.
It's kind of like one of the old school racing shoes.
Not stiff at all. There's a little midfoot shank
in there. Very — gosh, why am I blanking
on it — the Lightstrike Pro foam.
Really, really nice, simple, simple, simple, but quick
feeling. A much better ground feel
compared to many of the other things out there, which makes
sense. It's under 30 millimeters.
That said, it's going to be much lighter and more aggressive than
the Hyperion. So kind of a two-shoe setup
might be — hey, use something like this for your faster stuff.
It's definitely fine as a trainer for people that do
minimal distance. The durability is phenomenal, by
the way. I have like 60, 70 miles and I'm
not wearing through anything here.
This has been great. That said, it's more of a fast
shoe for most people, so you'd have to have something you could
transition with — and maybe the Cyclone.
I just said that wrong again. The Cyclone — maybe as a better
all-arounder, because that's kind of how it's designed.
So that's my opinion. Sorry that took so long.
The other one — kind of the Adizero SL from Adidas.
That one feels like it's kind of adjacent.
It's a little bit higher up, but — Evo SL.
Yeah, sorry. Not Adizero SL, so — that's
higher. That's not quite in the moderate
stack height range. I might be wrong.
I'm pretty sure that's more like 35 plus.
Yeah. Was it?
It was 35. Yeah, the Evo SL is 37/30.
That one doesn't have as much of that ground feel, though.
Like, the way that the foam feels — the Hyperion 2 really
did. And then the Hyperion 3 was —
I'm not even going to talk about it.
But the Cyclone 3 is my top choice.
I'm just coming up with other things that are semi-similar.
I think you're right. Cyclone is a really great
option. Just going to be a different fit
— Hyperion 2 actually had a surprisingly wide fit.
Remember us talking about it? A little bit low volume in the
midfoot, wider in the forefoot. Yeah.
Yep. It's nice foam.
RIP. Yeah, it was great.
RIP, man. RIP, Hyperion GTS 2 as well.
Yeah. Cry.
That was a big day. I think we might have shed a
single tear. Yeah, shed a lot more than that.
I might have shed two. Hey, you know, all would be
forgiven if Brooks is like, "Hey, we've had the Hyperion
Elite GTS. We've been hiding it from you,
but we're going to release it." All would be forgiven.
Hey, now it's out in the ether. Maybe somebody will pick it up.
All right, our next question is from Stuart, and Stuart asked
this. "Enjoy your site.
Find it very informative. My wife is having issues with
what has been diagnosed as Achilles tendinopathy.
Your article on the subject was quite helpful, especially the
shoe recommendations. She cannot run due to physical
issues, but likes to go on 4 to 5 mile brisk walks to help
maintain fitness. Additionally, we both wear
indoor shoes — just shoes for around the house that don't
leave the house for cleanliness and hygienic reasons.
So she's looking for two pairs to help with her pain.
She's icing a lot and has cut back on the walks.
I understand your recommendation.
Your recommended shoes are for running, but figured there would
still be a good list for walking as well.
We were looking at some of the shoes on the list, but found
that the generation of shoes has changed.
So — cue for us to go update the article with the new shoes —
what would be the best fit. For example, in the article it
says Nimbus 27. It's been replaced by the 28, et
cetera. The question is this — and I
think this is a good talking point — would we be safe in
going with the newer version of the shoes on the list?
Or is it likely that there was enough change that we should not
assume they would be appropriate to help with Achilles
tendinopathy?" Since I was one of the people
that wrote that, I would say: be careful with that.
We need to go update it, just because there have been some
very aggressive changes recently — whereas in the past, people
used to complain that, "Oh, companies don't really make big
changes." Now it's the opposite, where
every version — bam — totally new shoe, big changes, stuff
like that. So the nice part is that those
shoes, while they are a generation older, are still on
the market, and so they're still going to be available —
hopefully at a cheaper price. So that's still relevant.
The new stuff's going to be different.
The new Nimbus is a stiffer shoe, and I found that while I
like the snappiness, it did put a little bit more pressure on
the Achilles tendons — because if you have a shoe that's too
stiff, even if it is rockered, and you're pushing into that,
it's more load through the Achilles tendon.
So I would go with that list, and we'll go update it for sure.
But I would be cautious of that a little bit.
I think, interestingly, there has been a change in the pattern
for shoe updates — beyond just how companies choose to make one
version to the next. I feel like even 5 years ago, it
would be: year one is kind of an overhaul, year two is an upper
update, year three is more of an overhaul, year four is an upper
update, year five — and it was kind of following that pattern.
Now some companies are spreading out their release timing — so
instead of every year, a release — now they might do 18 months or
even 24 months. I think that's changing the
approach for these updates where they're a little bit more
involved, versus just trying to crank out a new model.
I think that's what you're talking about there, Matt, with
— these shoes aren't just a quick upper update.
There's actual substantive change for a lot of the models.
That's not all of them, but I think it's harder to just assume
it's going to be the same. In terms of shoes I would
suggest — and I had mentioned it for my in-for-testing — if they
were liking the Nimbus 27, I would go check out the Magnify
Max 2. I think that would be a great
walking shoe. I would also check out the Ghost
Max — 3 or 4 now. Sorry — Ghost Max 4.
Those could be options for this situation that would be good for
that walking use with that rocker profile.
Yeah, man. Because what Nathan's talking
about is — yeah, it's nice to have a little bit higher drop.
And we're going to actually probably hit this question a
little bit later, but there aren't really a ton of high-drop
shoes anymore on the market. They're kind of all gone.
So the other thing is — a little higher drop, a little more
rocker profile, especially in the forefoot, will help offload
the Achilles tendon. So yeah, I think the Magnify Max
2 is a great option for that. That was a great suggestion.
Yeah, I was thinking — you could either go with the rocker design
or the high drop, or a little bit of both.
But I like Ghost Max. I like — oh my gosh, I'm
blanking. You just said it.
And it's all the stuff you said is good.
The only other one I'm thinking of — and I see it in the image
behind Klein there — is the On Cloudrunner 3.
I like that option. A little bit more flexible up
front, but it's a firmer sole, a little bit higher drop, wider
base, and it's an excellent walking shoe.
One of my favorite walking shoes on the market right now, period.
It's on your right. Oh, you're grabbing the Vomero?
No, I'm grabbing — I'm grabbing something...
Yeah. And that's not a bad option
either. Another good one.
Yeah, that's another good one. Probably one of the higher-drop
shoes out there, but very rockered in the forefoot,
especially. That's good.
I think this is one of the best Nike trainers out there right
now. It's an excellent shoe.
I do like that shoe. Yep.
So there are some options. So I'm going to actually jump us
— jump us to another question that's kind of in line with
this, and we can always circle back if we need to.
But this is Kenneth writing about the loss of
12-millimeter-drop shoes. This is what Kenneth says.
"Maddie, who owns our local running store, recommended that
I listen to one of your podcasts a year ago, and I've been a fan
ever since. I'm hoping that you can help me
solve my problem. I've always been susceptible to
Achilles tendinosis. I'm 60 and average 20 miles per
week. Historically, I had a midfoot
strike, but as I've slowed down with age, I seem to heel strike
more. Sidebar — totally cool.
That's totally fine. Here we go.
The Brooks Ghost became my go-to shoe years ago, and I rarely had
flare-ups. Unfortunately, the change from
12-millimeter to 10-millimeter drop in the Ghost 17 didn't work
well for me, leading to more frequent Achilles issues.
I did listen to your show with Dr. Karin Silbernagel on
Achilles injuries. Sidebar again — if y'all haven't
listened to that, go back and find it.
Phenomenal episode. She's a wealth of knowledge on
Achilles injuries, and I have been much more consistent with
strengthening exercises, which have helped a lot.
You've mentioned that with current designs, drop isn't
everything, but it isn't clear to me what else I should be
looking for. Can you explain what shoe
geometry and features I should look for, and suggest some
neutral shoes I might try to replace my trusty Ghosts?"
So I can jump in on this because this individual fits right in
with my research population. And yeah — past 58, it's one of,
as we become masters runners, it's one of the injuries we're
most susceptible to. I'm going to go on a little
sidebar and talk about the fact that — yeah — there are no more
high-drop shoes. Okay?
The highest you're going to find is 10 — Nike makes a good number
of them, Brooks makes a good number of them.
That's really it. Except — actually — the Saucony
Triumph 24, David — is that 10, right?
Oh, that's a good question. 43 stack.
I think it's either 8 or 10. Yeah, so there are not as many
out there as there used to be, right?
Most of them sit in the 6 to 8 millimeter range — which is
decent for most people, but for those with Achilles issues, it's
not the most fun thing in the world.
I have struggled with this problem.
And so the things that can be helpful — like we just mentioned
earlier — is a forefoot rocker. And a forefoot rocker is
basically this upward curve in the front of the shoe.
What that does — naturally in your foot, you have a forefoot
rocker: it's your toes being able to extend and naturally
roll you over the front of your foot.
If they couldn't do that, it'd be like trying to get over a
stiff board, which would create more stress on the Achilles
tendon. That's fine if you're running
fast. If you're just trying to run
efficiently and save energy and reduce stress on the foot and
ankle, that's really important. And that's where a shoe like the
Magnify Max 2 — where anyone that has this large curve in the
front can actually take pressure off the Achilles and the calf
and allow you to roll forward more — you just know it's going
to shift workload up towards your knee and your hip.
Now, not every forefoot rocker is made the same.
If it's a really long forefoot rocker — it starts far back.
Those tend to be better for this.
The ones that are really short and steep — those tend to add a
lot of stiffness. So it still depends: the quality
of it, what that geometry looks like.
There's a little nuance there. I was going to say — what's
important with that — it's not just that it has the visual
curve. It's also got to be kind of
stiff. Like if it just flexes all the
way, then it's not really a rocker platform.
I think of the 1080 or even the Triumph — which is a
10-millimeter drop, you said, David, right?
You confirm that. It's too flexible.
So you don't actually operate on a rocker.
It's got to be something you can't bend much in your hands
from front to back. Well, that's a helpful feature.
Yeah. So Nathan's absolutely right.
It's got to be a stiff forefoot rocker that'll help maintain
that. And it's got to feel
comfortable, because there are even ones that'll be too stiff,
and that works against you. So it's got to be the right
stiffness, the right geometry — just for you — and you're not
going to know that until you go try a few things on.
Now, there is something I have done that's been an external
add-on that's been much more helpful.
And that comes in with adding a heel lift.
I've had some flares so bad that the only way to keep going —
even walking — was to add a heel lift.
Now, I've tried about eight different types.
I went and ordered all these different things off Amazon.
They're only a couple bucks. I went, "Hey, let me try these
out." And I probably need to write a
review at some point. But the ones I like the most —
these are $9 on Amazon — is ProFoot.
We have no financial relationship with them.
They have no idea we're doing this.
I like this the best because it fit the best and stayed the most
secure out of all the different heel lifts I tried.
A heel lift — basically, you put it underneath the insole of the
shoe, and it just lifts your heel up a little bit and creates
a higher drop. Now, the 10-millimeter-drop
shoes don't work well with it. It makes the shoe too high drop.
It's too much. They tend to work better with
shoes that are more in that 6 to 8-millimeter-drop range,
especially 6 — because this adds quite a bit.
So if you're still going, "I like this shoe, it's not high
enough drop for me" — you can totally add one of these in.
They're flexible in terms of you can pull them out, put them in
another shoe. They're very cheap.
You can use them in rotation. So a heel lift has been really
helpful for me when things have been too flared up and I just
need to offload stuff. So that may be great.
And what I like about the ProFoot is the foam — it
integrates super well with other midsoles.
Some of the other ones were either stiff and I could feel
they were in there. This one just feels like it's
lifting me up and I don't feel anything else, which has been
really nice. It's another option.
David, do you have more thoughts?
I think that's great. I mean, I was thinking heel
lifts myself. I didn't have a company name to
drop though, so I'm going to take that note for myself.
And who knows? I might even go purchase one
right after we get off and try it out for my own foot and
Achilles stuff. So it was the foot first, and
then my Achilles, and now it's both.
Love it. Yeah.
Yep. Although the Achilles is
starting to feel better — now it's more just the foot again.
I think it just needs to rest. My reflection on this question
was — one, huge kudos to them for picking up the idea of doing
the hard work first, like, "Let's do the strengthening
thing." And then the second is what
y'all already have said: the real features you're looking for
are a slightly higher drop where you can find it, but then really
that stiff rocker platform — one that's a bit more gradual — will
be the most helpful. Yep.
And if you can't find the higher drop you want on a shoe that you
like — throw in a heel lift. $9 for two, by the way. $9 for two.
There are a couple companies that did $10 for one.
And I was like, I'm not going to create a greater leg length
asymmetry. It is totally normal.
Yeah, put it in both. Just to clarify, by the way —
it's very rare for people to actually have legs of the same
length. We are asymmetrical creatures.
So that's just the way we are.
But don't create a much larger one.
Yeah, do both. All right, here's our next
question. This is from Jack.
Jack asks this. "I've been a longtime lurker
slash reader of your website. And I really appreciate..."
I love that word. Oh my gosh.
I do. "I appreciate the level of
detail you go into when reviewing shoes.
I was wondering if you'd be able to help recommend me a pair.
I'm looking to invest in some road-to-trail runners for — you
guessed it — road-to-trail running and some walking.
I run on pavement, through fields, and on gravelly paths.
Important to note is that I have a wider than average lateral
lower midfoot — as in, the lower part of my midfoot sticks out
considerably more than the rest of my foot.
I have a naturally low arch, and I frequently break through toe
boxes. So anything with toe protection
on the big toe is great. Do people have thoughts?"
Salomon Aeroglide Gravel? Gravel.
Yeah, that's literally what I wrote.
Oh, they have kind of their gravel version...
So like, that aggravated the lateral side of my foot.
Personally. Version 3 was a lot better.
Version 4 was not — a lot of ridging.
Version 3 — I'm trying to think, but I can't remember what the
fit was. I liked the fit.
Toe box was a little reinforced. I can't remember if there was
extra room in the lateral midfoot.
For me it was more about the tread than the actual fit.
I don't remember it being too problematic fit-wise.
Yeah, I think — like you, David — I couldn't do version four.
Yeah, it just aggravated me. But I mean, it's definitely
worth a shot. It's a good option if it does
work for you. Yeah — get version 3 on sale, to
be honest. Do you have the Cloud Soma on
you, Klein? Uh, yeah.
I actually — well, but that's kind of more snug.
That's a little bit... but it's excellent road-to-trail with
pretty good versatility. It really is.
Yeah. I'm a little hesitant with that
lateral midfoot because it does get kind of lower volume here,
but all the other things work extremely well.
The transition between road and trail — just having the way that
the clouds kind of come up and create a weirdly stable ride —
I'm just a little bit worried about that lateral midfoot based
on that. Nathan, do you got something?
I have two that I was thinking of.
Oh, I was thinking the Aeroglide.
I don't think it's worth going and getting the Concept,
probably because it's $250. But it also has — what I was
going to show — lateral sidewalls that go pretty far
into the midfoot to forefoot. So if that's where your foot is
jutting out, this probably might not be the option for you.
But the one that came into my mind — it's a trail shoe, but it
has worked really well for me on road — is the North Face Vectiv
Enduris 500. How about that for an option?
Oh, that's a good one. Dude, great option.
Yeah, that's a great choice. The lugs are only 4 millimeters,
but the foam is so great that it feels awesome on the road.
So for me, this was the number one shoe that came into my mind.
I was like — and the fit is super, super accommodating.
So this is my number one. This is like — gosh — top trail
shoe of the year so far for me, I think.
I like the Ultra Glide from Salomon.
Did you? And actually, that one's not too
bad on road either, because it has like that bulbous outsole
pattern. It's really compliant when you
land. Yeah, that was a really
interesting outsole, for sure. I will say — Nathan, you've hit
it on the head — just because it's got that wider fit, and the
midfoot, I don't think, is going to be a bother.
But it's definitely a full-on stable neutral.
So I think that's a great idea. Yeah.
Cool. All right, we've got our next
question here. It's from Enda.
They ask: "Big fan of the podcast, and you've helped me
guide many patients as a PT to using appropriate running shoes
for their needs. That's awesome.
I see a lot of people who require medial support or
guidance for lower leg issues like posterior tibial
tendinopathy, and I'm normally able to recommend well in this
area — recently with shoes like the Kayano 32 or the Saucony
Azura, even though that's not technically a stability shoe."
This is all their words. Sorry.
"However, I've struggled to get the same response with people
suffering from medial compartment knee OA.
I feel like it should be the same style of shoe offering
increased medial support to offload the medial knee, but I'm
open to correction here — but my patients with this issue tend
not to respond well to this type of shoe.
Do you have any go-to current shoes to assist with medial
compartment knee OA?" Can I jump on this?
Sure. Yeah, so what you have to
realize — what happens at the foot does affect the knee.
There's kind of some variability about this.
But typically, the evidence suggests if you do medial
stability — or especially a medial wedge or a varus wedge —
it's actually going to compress the medial compartment more, and
that tends to be more irritating.
People with medial compartment OA actually do better with a
lateral wedge or a valgus wedge, because that actually forces
that compartment open more. And so there's been some
evidence on that. So it's kind of the opposite —
where sometimes that's conflicting, because you get
people with that and posterior tibial tendinopathy, or you get
medial knee compartment OA plus some medial ligament issues, or
some insertional tendinopathies in that area, plus some meniscus
stuff. So it's going to be really
complicated — but purely medial compartment, the evidence
suggests you basically use more lateral stability, because that
essentially opens that space. Yeah, I was going to say the
same thing — I was like, "Oh, it actually could be the opposite."
And that would make sense why this might not have been working
well. As you said, there's some
variability in this, but I was thinking about — I couldn't come
up with the exact shoes — but in terms of construction, I was
thinking of shoes that had a little bit of a medial cutout,
or something that allowed the shoe to collapse immediately a
little bit more. Are there ones that come to your
mind? David just said it — Aeroglide.
There's a lateral — there's a lateral...
That's the way to circle back, because that's what I was going
through in my head. I'm like, it's not the most
aggressive thing, right? But it's still subtle enough
that it might create some mild medial guidance.
But yeah — gosh, I've written about this a few times.
And now I'm blanking. Some of the older ideas — which
should be kind of like that, but not as much anymore.
Not as much. You know — actually, the Adizero
Boston, weirdly enough, with the lateral outsole design — that's
not the right term — I appreciate it.
Sorry. Sorry.
I did not use that correctly. The pods actually jut out
laterally, because they're meant to bounce immediately.
That's why the shoe has not worked for me.
That may be one — but again, I don't know how aggressive it's
going to be. But you can also just create a
lateral wedge or use a felt insert in the shoe.
Like, you can buy this on Amazon and put it underneath the insole
— actually push them up to be a little bit more into a valgus
position by putting it on the lateral side.
But you've got to be careful because you have to do it
optimally. My take on that is like — give
it a shot. If it works, it does.
If it doesn't, it doesn't. You know — don't see it as a
silver bullet as a practitioner, right?
Like — give it a shot, do a treatment trial of it.
If you can — even like we always had some Microlight foam, I
think it was called — just these — it was like a little EVA foam
roll-up sheet that you could just cut however you wanted to.
And so we would just cut what we wanted, tape it onto the insole
of a shoe, and just see how people respond to it — just do
some treatment trials. David, do you have anything else
you want to add? Do you know what they should do?
The Fast R 3 would be a great option because of this big
medial — just kidding. Just kidding.
Don't do a super shoe. You lost me.
No, I think you guys described it really well.
It's like — what can happen on one end could actually create a
compensation on the other end and change the angle from a
biomechanical standpoint. I think you guys hit it really
well — and really just looking for some lateral outsole flare
and/or lateral bias. Which I'm super sensitive to,
but I haven't had too many shoes knock me out besides the
Aeroglide in recent history where I'm like, "Oh geez, I
cannot run in this for this reason."
Right. There've been a few others that
are escaping me right now, and I definitely wrote about this
recently. I remember Andrea was super
sensitive to something with the lateral bias recently, but I
can't remember exactly what it was.
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, especially in the net.
Yeah. Especially in the forefoot for
Andrea — because she lands really far forward, if that hits
too early for her, she just does not gel with it.
Her words, not mine. All right, we have one more
question for the evening. So this is a question from
Karen, and they're asking this. "Hope y'all are doing well.
I quite enjoy your site and hoping you might have some
recommendations for a daily trainer slash non-plated super
trainer based on the below preferences and shoes I have
enjoyed and not enjoyed as much. So here's — bear with me — I'm
going to give all the ideas here.
This is the context they gave us.
Lightweight runner, 63 kilograms, relatively high
cadence — running in the 180s to 190 steps per minute.
Marathon training, typically in the hot, humid Singapore
conditions. Generally prefers lighter,
responsive shoes that feel like they have a quick turnover.
Tends not to enjoy heavier, structured or supportive shoes,
or overly chunky, heavy-feeling shoes.
Shoes they've really enjoyed in the past: Nike Streakfly —
'probably my favorite recent shoe, would be perfect if they
made a longer distance version.' Really enjoyed the Nike Vaporfly
4% and the Vaporfly 4, the On Cloudflow, and the Saucony
Kinvara 15. Shoes they did not enjoy so
much: the Nike Pegasus Plus — 'didn't dislike it, but found it
a bit bigger in profile and less responsive and exciting than
they had hoped.' The Adizero Evo SL — 'have not
run in it, but it felt chunkier and more structured than
expected when they saw it in person.'
And the Hoka Bondi, chunky Brooks, and similarly highly
cushioned, supportive shoes generally.
This is what they say they seem to enjoy the most: Lightweight
shoes with low feelings of inertia, responsive foam and
quick turnover, natural transitions, minimal heel
interference, or less structured sensations in the shoe — a
'super shoe sensation' without necessarily having a carbon
plate. Would really appreciate your
insights. They'll also be in Japan
soon-ish, so very open to unconventional or Japan market
suggestions as well." Topo Cyclone 3.
Yeah, I mean, that's definitely the big one that was screaming.
But I was trying to think of other examples.
But yes — Cyclone 3. Doesn't want high stack, wants
light — clearly, based on the theme, it's like more moderate
to maybe a little bit lower stack height.
That fits the bill — unfortunately, there's not a lot
of stuff. New Balance Rebel, kind of.
Not as good as the Cyclone, but that one would — it's fast
enough. My only hesitation with the
Rebel is it's probably going to feel really soft.
But it's lower. Not by much — it is, but not
like today's standards, not by that much.
Not like the Cyclone. Not like the Kinvara and stuff
like that. We haven't tested the Kinvara in
a while. What happened?
Have they been making them? I don't know.
They still make them. They're updating them?
They are. They just — we didn't get sent
them. But what else?
Honestly — that's kind of it — I mean, Adios 9.
Also — we just talked about — the Adidas Adizero Adios 9.
It has a shank, but it's not plated — especially in the
forefoot — so there's a little teeny bit of structure, but it's
lighter, definitely good ground feel, a little bit snappier
foam. Another option if you want to go
race or run a little quicker. Very light.
This is nice. RIP Brooks Hyperion 2.
I'll say it again. Oh man.
Yeah, the 3 definitely went a little higher.
The shoe I keep — the shoe I can't talk about — I would also
put in this category based on their description.
I think that shoe's too high stack.
I haven't even put it on. Or ran in it yet.
I haven't. It's a different — it's a
different animal. It's a different animal.
I love that Nate's the one that isn't talking about things now.
What about the Mizuno NeoZen 2? That might be a little too soft.
Yeah, I think that's a little bit — a little bit too much
bounciness, I feel like — but it dances on the line of it,
though. Yeah, the — our Surfer Next.
The Surfer Next thing. No, yeah, that's what I'm
talking about. Okay, got it.
Yeah. And in my head I was thinking —
yeah, Surfer Next — but I said just Surfer.
That feels a little bit too flat for me.
Like, it doesn't give me a super shoe-ey feel.
We haven't tested a ton of this, but what about some of the road
stuff from Inov-8? Oh, I'm not sure.
I haven't. Any X-Step stuff?
Or like Anta? I was kind of thinking that in
my head, but Anta likes to plate their shoes.
So like the C202 GT and even the regular trainers — a lot of them
have shanks and plates. Same with XTEP, actually.
They do a lot of like PEBA-type foams.
I was literally thinking that, though.
I was like — in the Asian market — what are the other shoes out
there? And yeah.
Wasn't there like a 361 Mira ST or something you were looking
at, Klein? That looked like it might be in
that kind of general area. So yeah — that's plated though,
too, right? The 361 Mira ST is plated.
An interesting shoe — if they wanted to race, there's the
Meraki Nude 2, because it is plated, but it doesn't
necessarily feel like that — because they're just trying to
save so much weight. Why am I thinking Skechers?
Is that the one you're thinking? Yeah, that's what I was thinking
of, right? It is.
It is, it is a good one. It is technically plated.
There's an H-shaped plate, but the foam is so good — and it's
so affordable and rolls so nice. It kind of fits in line with a
lot of those other things. It's quick, for sure.
Maybe still — Yeah, I think that's another good option,
actually. Yeah, I like that.
I'd say: Cyclone, Rebel — those are my three, if I'm thinking.
Yep. Yeah, I think the Rebel could be
an interesting one. It won't feel as fast, but the
foam has that like responsive feel to it.
It just feels really lively. It just isn't as fast as the
earlier versions of the Rebel kind of used to be.
But I think it's worth them giving a shot based off of their
list and what they've liked in the past.
But once the Saucony Kinvara was listed, I was like, "Dang, this
is a Cyclone conversation." Yeah — natural feeling, almost a
racing flat, but still a trainer.
Yeah. I'm surprised ASICS doesn't have
anything like that. I was thinking about their
lineup and the closest thing for non-plated performance would be
like the Superblast or even the Novablast, for some degree.
Do they still have the Hyperspeed?
Yeah, but that's like an EVA, like — I mean, it's not a super
shoe-feeling shoe. It kind of works, though.
Yeah. I had daily miles in those when
we reviewed it. That was only like a year ago.
So I imagine it's still around. It's a Hyperspeed vibe.
So it's like, what — $100? Maybe a little bit more than
that? It is $100.
Yeah. Yeah.
And that's what it is, right? It's a simple EVA, lightweight
flat trainer kind of hybrid. So it's not super by any means,
but it checks the other boxes. For what it's worth, though,
it's nice. I did like the shoe.
So we just want to thank everybody for coming on this
journey with us. As a reminder — we're dropping
this collab with Rabbit. And it just means a lot that
we're in a space where we get to do that.
And that's because you all have been on this journey with us.
So when we get these questions and we have people who are in
high school and we have people who are in Singapore and we have
people who are next door — it's really humbling for us to be
able to do this. So thanks for being on this
journey with us. And we hope that dropping stuff
like this that y'all can get your hands on is one small way
we can say thanks. And we're just very glad to be
doing this whole thing with you all.
So appreciate it. And as always, you can reach out
to us at doctorsofrunning@gmail.com if
you want to add other questions for us that we might be able to
discuss here on the podcast. Thanks, everybody.