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Today's episode of the doctors 
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that's inside. 
Tracker.com, and doctors are 

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looking. 
Hello everyone and welcome to 

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the dock spring podcast, where 
we a group of doctors to 

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physical therapy. 
The Art and Science of running 

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and the stuff that we're putting
on our feet. 

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And, and today, at the round 
table is just dr. 

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Matthew Klein and myself, Nathan
Brown. 

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I'll be your host and Matt is 
going to be dropping in some 

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knowledge. 
Talking about the evolution of 

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what we coin, quote unquote, 
stability shoes, what the 

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progression of that has looked 
like over the last number of 

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years. 
And then we're going to be 

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giving an update for 2023 and 
some of the trends that we're 

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seeing now we'd like, to revisit
this conversation because one of

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our purposes and starting 
doctrine of running was To have 

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conversations surrounding some 
of the marketing that may go out

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about shoes. 
That might lead people in a 

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direction to have false beliefs 
about what shoes do what their 

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purpose is and what we can count
on them for and in the realm of 

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stability, I think is where we 
see this conversation, going 

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off, the rails, the most. 
And so we're really excited to 

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continue to try to enter this 
space and have these 

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conversations because it spans 
more Beyond just what we're 

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seeing instructions of shoes. 
It also talks about what we 

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believe about biomechanics of 
running, so, Man, I'm excited to

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hear what you have to say in 
terms of updating us on this. 

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But before we get to you, we are
pulling this to the crowd and 

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asking you all four are 
subjected to the week. 

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How do you define a stability 
shoe or do you call it a 

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stability shoe to have another 
term that you like to use 

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instead of stability shoe? 
So we'd love to hear from you. 

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How do you define a stability 
shoe? 

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And is there, another term that 
you like to use? 

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But Matt, let's kick it over to 
you. 

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We're going to go over 
everything about the anatomy. 

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Ami of these shoes and kind of 
what these definitions are. 

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So why don't we just start 
there? 

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And you can just kick us off. 
Yeah, this is going to be a 

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little intense. 
So I'm going to ask the 

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listeners viewers to be patient 
because this has evolved quite a

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bit. 
I'm going to start back at the 

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beginning. 
We're back when even before I 

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was working a running stores 
which is a good decade plus ago 

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where when I first got in and 
was kind of being exposed to 

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this and going hey you 
categorize shoes based on 

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neutral or stability the 
stability. 

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That was the big categories 
outside of. 

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Of daily training and racing. 
So that was really all we had. 

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And what I was taught in stores,
was hey, if you see any motion 

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excessive motion ankle, which 
were for that time, they're 

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calling, you know, any 
pronation, right? 

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Anything you want to give them a
stability shoe and I was like, 

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well, I do a lot of that. 
I guess I should have a 

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stability shoe, and I found 
that. 

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Some of them felt good in 
others. 

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Felt terrible and gave me pain 
in other areas. 

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So, that kind of chat was an 
early challenge for my thought. 

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Process and going with, that 
doesn't really make sense. 

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So, we'll fall, I'll follow in 
with how I've kind of learned 

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this and what in the industry is
adapting to it. 

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But the original definition of a
stability shoe was really one 

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that had these mechanisms in 
place to control pronation. 

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And so I want to clear out that 
pronation refers to a Molech. 

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What we call a try planar motion
is at its emotion. 

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It is not a static position. 
I just had a student on Friday 

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asked me this as we were doing 
posture and gait if you are 

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Ending still in your foot 
collapses and it's in one 

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position. 
That's not pronation pronation 

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describes a normal motion. 
It can, it's a combination of 

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foot e-version, abduction, and 
Ankle dorsiflexion. 

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So you have to have all three of
those and be moving for this to 

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be considered pronation just 
sitting that in that position 

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could be any one of those in 
most commonly it's eavers which 

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comes with quite a bit from a 
from the posterior part of the 

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Foot and Ankle, usually subtalar
joint but there's a lot of 

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Places in the foot, you can 
actually get that motion. 

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So the design of a stability 
shoe was such to basically stop 

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that because we thought that 
everybody needed to have a 

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totally strength. 
Ankle, if you went inside it 

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all, it was well, you know, the 
thought was that any amount of 

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pronation was pretty much the 
cause, or the culprit for the 

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majority of foot and ankle, or 
even knee and hip injuries. 

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We now know that's not 
necessarily true, but that's 

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what was thought at the time. 
And everybody did things to 

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correct it, right? 
Correct. 

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And Most commonly what you would
see is through this more dense 

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material on the medial or inner 
side of the foot called a post 

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or second density foam. 
And the idea was that hey that 

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thing was going to stop you. 
If you try to pronate, it was 

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going to stop you and help, keep
keep you forward instead of 

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rolling off to the side. 
So that looked, you know, 

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sometimes shoes wouldn't be very
clear. 

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Like, you have the phone with 
the same color. 

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Other times, would be like this 
gray material like this block. 

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They would sit here. 
There were different amounts 

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you'd have some in the heel. 
So, Of the mid-foot, some would 

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span the entire length of the 
shoes. 

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Some had additional plastic 
pieces, like the Brooks Beast. 

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Which is this, like insane, what
we call motion control, which is

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the highest level of stability 
at that time. 

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So it was mild stability, 
moderate stability, and then you

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got into motion like motion 
control up higher. 

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So that was the primary method 
you need to have a post. 

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There were some other things 
that people talked about the 

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other one was a wedge idea where
the actually of the foam density

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or there actually was an Actual 
wedge that was kind of shaped 

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like this. 
Your foot would sit into that 

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higher medial side and wouldn't 
be able to roll in. 

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Those were not as common, one of
the rare shoes of people. 

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Not may not realize is actually 
a Nike Lunar Glide, actually 

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have a little bit of a wedge 
based on how the soul in the 

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firmness was designed over. 
There was also a plastic piece 

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in there. 
It was like your foot was on our

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on a ramp. 
So, from the, the inside of the 

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shoe is higher than the outside 
of the shoe. 

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So that's what kind of that 
wedge. 

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He's talking about. 
It, it was pledged sideways, so 

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that That it would be higher on 
the inside and lower on the 

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outside, right? 
And those were not very common 

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and off the top of my head, 
maybe I'm blanking. 

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The only one I can think of it. 
Does that now, is the New 

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Balance Von go, which at least 
in the van Gogh? 

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V5 is there any other my totally
misinterpreted that? 

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Well, I think it's not exactly 
how they have a progressive, a 

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progressive film density, which 
some other ones, I think the 

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adrenaline touted that for a 
number of years, but it's not 

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actually pitched sideways. 
So I don't think there's any No 

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of that use the wedge model and 
I think they're wedges for us as

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pts was a very common thing for 
a while when treating trying to 

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treat knee osteoarthritis. 
The idea was you'd put this 

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wedge and at the ankle, that 
creates a certain force from the

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ankle, which then goes up the 
chain to the knee and would 

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offload, one of the compartments
and you would do a lateral wedge

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or media wedge depending on the 
person's condition. 

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And I think that you still hear 
that conversation with how 

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Brooks does their stability is, 
they're always looking at the 

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knee. 
See, that's what they're, you 

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know, Matt Trudeau looks at that
stuff a lot. 

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And yeah, tries to think how can
the foot affect the knee but 

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that's, that's been pretty 
common in physical therapy, 

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practice in rehab, but not as 
explicitly. 

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That's usually something we at 
would add into a shoe, it's not 

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super common now to do this 
because the evidence on, it's 

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pretty poor, but it's yeah, 
usually, it wasn't built into 

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the shoes more often put in 
underneath the sock liner or 

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something like that. 
So, put in either with an 

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orthotic or that kind of thing. 
So, yeah. 

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So thanks. 
Like the yeah. 

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The so yeah. 
The big idea was we want to try 

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to correct this and control 
this, the challenge with that 

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is, as we got more evidence, we 
found that even with shoes that 

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are supposedly motion control, 
people were still Pro dating. 

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They were. 
In fact, some people would 

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actually have the exact same 
amount of pronation or movement 

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regardless of what you put them 
in. 

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Which made us go. 
That's weird. 

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Right by people would rip. 
So by mechanically things aren't

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necessarily changing with all 
these different things for 

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putting in there. 
And some people would report it,

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made them feel better. 
Some people said oh I don't like

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this so you know that there were
we came about that you know 

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maybe something you to change 
maybe we're not getting the 

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whole picture on this and even 
though that's what was seen in 

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the evidence, even in the early 
2000s, even before that things 

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really weren't changing in the 
running industry. 

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We were continuing both from an 
industry-wide standard as well 

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as in running stores as well as 
in meetings with for companies, 

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that was the conventional 
wisdom. 

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Even though the research 
Especially from an individual 

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going to hear a lot from been 
oneg and even Simon. 

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Barr told we talked about, this 
isn't really how this stuff 

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works but people wouldn't 
initially listen. 

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Now, in recent years, we've been
fortunate that people are 

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certain challenges in that 
research is people are now 

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looking the risk going. 
Hey, this isn't really catching 

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everyone, we thought this was a 
catch-all thing but pronation is

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emotion. 
It's not describing a pathologic

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thing and just like any motion, 
it can be good. 

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It can be problematic but it 
really depends. 

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In the person. 
So that's where this is started 

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to evolve and I got to give been
on it credit for coming up with 

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the concept of the Comfort 
filter and the movement and 

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movement, paradigms that people 
kind of moving unique ways and 

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sometimes it can be problematic,
but sometimes it can actually be

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just their style and if you 
change that, it can be an issue.

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And that's the issue with people
need to remember, this is the 

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same thing with the foot. 
Strike thing is the same thing. 

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We even see with glued activated
people. 

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I get really psyched about good 
activation now. 

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Yeah, that works really well for
some people but You cannot 

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simplify the entire population 
down to one joint, right? 

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People are complex need to 
figure out why and how they're 

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moving. 
And that takes a lot more than 

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0. 
You just pronate you know here's

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an issue. 
So this is evolved to kind of I 

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don't want to take credit for 
this but like the like that term

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we tend to use is more like 
guidance in that. 

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It's these shoes what you really
want is that you want them to 

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help guide you forward. 
You don't necessarily want them 

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to force you in different 
directions. 

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You just want to help them Get 
you forward in however, way that

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works for you. 
So, I am not as somebody, as 

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somebody mentioned this. 
I think, in a comment on YouTube

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that I thought that thinking, 
that I thought posts were bad. 

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So these second density. 
Oh no, those work. 

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Great for some people. 
But the idea is, with the New 

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Concept is guidance. 
You're trying to understand how 

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with as many people as possible.
Can you facilitate forward 

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motion? 
That means not just thinking 

228
00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,100
about pronation. 
It could be going laterally too 

229
00:10:55,100 --> 00:10:58,300
far, so which is kind of hard 
right? 

230
00:10:58,300 --> 00:11:01,000
Trying to capture everybody at 
once as Very difficult thing. 

231
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,100
So, things are changing a little
bit and we've got a couple new 

232
00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:07,900
components that we've talked 
about that all dive into in just

233
00:11:07,900 --> 00:11:09,600
a second. 
What do you think? 

234
00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,900
Are some of the shoes that have 
kind of really changed some of 

235
00:11:13,900 --> 00:11:17,000
the conversation thinking back? 
I think one that pops into my 

236
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,300
head is the Keanu light, like 
the first one. 

237
00:11:20,300 --> 00:11:22,500
Yes, I'm out of that. 
But like, what other what other 

238
00:11:22,500 --> 00:11:26,600
shoes are in that conversation 
of changing from, you know, a 

239
00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,400
very stiff shoe that has stiff 
meaning it didn't like to They 

240
00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,000
purposely didn't bend and they 
had that post on the side. 

241
00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:34,300
What were some of those first 
shoes? 

242
00:11:34,300 --> 00:11:37,900
I started to shift the 
conversation or the the look of 

243
00:11:37,900 --> 00:11:39,800
what we would call a quote 
unquote, stability shoe. 

244
00:11:40,100 --> 00:11:43,500
Yeah, they were a good number. 
I mean, the the bias one would 

245
00:11:43,500 --> 00:11:47,000
be talking about the Saucony 
Tempest that had as a stability 

246
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,000
shoe that a lot of people that 
neutral mechanics like having, 

247
00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:52,300
you know, these these guide 
look. 

248
00:11:52,300 --> 00:11:54,700
Well, I can't really call it 
guide rails just because that's 

249
00:11:54,700 --> 00:11:58,000
Brooks but having material on 
the side that and offsetting 

250
00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,800
between a softer foam and a 
firmer. 

251
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,800
Form and being able to hey can 
we try to keep you centered? 

252
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,100
Speaking of Brooks? 
That's another company that I 

253
00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:06,900
think when they added in the 
guide rails. 

254
00:12:06,900 --> 00:12:08,600
Yes. 
The shoes like the adrenaline 

255
00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:10,800
which is one of the most popular
running shoes. 

256
00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,500
Not just ability but the one of 
the most popular running shoes 

257
00:12:13,500 --> 00:12:17,900
United States they moved away 
from only having a second 

258
00:12:17,900 --> 00:12:21,100
density, second density foam or 
a post and they started adding 

259
00:12:21,100 --> 00:12:25,500
these things called guide rails 
and all quite a long time ago, 

260
00:12:25,500 --> 00:12:28,700
actually relatively what it's 
been like for five years. 

261
00:12:28,700 --> 00:12:31,000
So they were kind of A little 
early to that. 

262
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,200
And so they had these things on 
both the medial and lateral 

263
00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:35,700
side. 
So inner and outer side of foot 

264
00:12:35,700 --> 00:12:37,900
trying to go, hey, we're going 
to pretend like, like almost 

265
00:12:37,900 --> 00:12:39,700
like like bumper Lanes. 
When you're bowling, you're 

266
00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:42,200
gonna try to just keep you 
moving forward, wherever you 

267
00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,600
might go, because people don't 
just always drop fall in One 

268
00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,200
Direction. 
Sometimes they kind of go back 

269
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,600
and forth and that's not 
actually a bad thing. 

270
00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,600
You just shoot it that truly 
support you in your, in your 

271
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,100
forward transition rather than 
tries to push you in one way. 

272
00:12:56,100 --> 00:12:59,300
So Brooks was an early adopter 
of that with the adrenaline, I 

273
00:12:59,300 --> 00:13:02,900
don't know. 
I am forgetting the, the even 

274
00:13:02,900 --> 00:13:07,200
the shoe before the adrenaline 
that they had, it was it wasn't 

275
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:08,900
the Ravenna. 
There was another one that was 

276
00:13:08,900 --> 00:13:10,300
supposed to have this new foam 
in it. 

277
00:13:10,300 --> 00:13:12,000
I remember running it in the 
streets of Pomona. 

278
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,800
Why can't I remember this? 
But definitely definitely Brooks

279
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,800
another company that even for a 
longer time was challenging that

280
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,600
I got to give credit to Mizuno 
because they really haven't used

281
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:24,900
post. 
They used plates and they 

282
00:13:24,900 --> 00:13:26,500
expanded the plates in different
ways. 

283
00:13:26,500 --> 00:13:28,900
Instead of having yet, you know,
they have it a little thicker on

284
00:13:28,908 --> 00:13:30,700
the medial side. 
But still a little bit on the 

285
00:13:30,700 --> 00:13:32,700
lateral side know, trying to 
kind of compress and move you 

286
00:13:32,700 --> 00:13:36,800
forward. 
So there's been touches of this 

287
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,400
here and there from different 
companies, but it didn't really 

288
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:45,200
become mainstream until the 
probably the last maybe two, you

289
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,000
two or so years that people are 
going. 

290
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,200
You know what some of these Main
Line, stability shoes. 

291
00:13:50,500 --> 00:13:53,600
How can we adapt these little 
bit better to work with a 

292
00:13:53,608 --> 00:13:55,400
variety of people? 
Realizing that post work. 

293
00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,600
Great for some people but not 
for others. 

294
00:13:57,900 --> 00:13:59,800
So it wasn't just one. 
Yeah. 

295
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,600
Yeah, what do you what do you 
think? 

296
00:14:02,100 --> 00:14:04,300
What do you think? 
We're the things that push the 

297
00:14:04,300 --> 00:14:08,100
industry to make some changes? 
Do you think it was sales or do 

298
00:14:08,100 --> 00:14:12,300
you think it was science or like
some research that came out? 

299
00:14:12,300 --> 00:14:15,000
Like what were the things that 
actually like led to some of 

300
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,000
these changes? 
Because the shoes are looking 

301
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:18,300
different. 
Yes. 

302
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,200
And what do you, what do you 
think it is? 

303
00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,800
I think it was a combination of 
all the things you mentioned. 

304
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,400
I think, you know, I always talk
about this. 

305
00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,100
I think the minimalist thing 
definitely had an influence 

306
00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:29,400
because there was a lot of 
people pooh-poohing, spilled a 

307
00:14:29,408 --> 00:14:30,700
going on. 
Oh, you don't need this. 

308
00:14:30,700 --> 00:14:32,200
This is a waste. 
Like you should be using your 

309
00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,100
natural mechanics and some 
people can do that. 

310
00:14:34,500 --> 00:14:37,600
Some people can't write be very 
careful of extremes. 

311
00:14:37,700 --> 00:14:39,700
It's usually somewhere in the 
middle that you're going to find

312
00:14:39,700 --> 00:14:41,800
that kind of optimal balance. 
That is not a pun that's 

313
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:43,800
intended, but it just turned out
like that. 

314
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,700
So part of it was rethinking 
going. 

315
00:14:46,700 --> 00:14:48,700
Do, does everybody actually need
this? 

316
00:14:48,700 --> 00:14:51,400
And is this the best form? 
There was also the research that

317
00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:53,600
was coming out from individuals,
like been oneg and the many 

318
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,400
others that showed. 
Hey, this is doing to the foot. 

319
00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,100
We thought it was and then also 
the by mechanical model of our 

320
00:14:59,100 --> 00:15:01,300
understanding. 
In challenge where we see people

321
00:15:01,300 --> 00:15:04,000
with certain biomechanics and we
found that actually trying to 

322
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,000
change them caused more issues 
or like, oh, so this isn't 

323
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,000
lining up. 
We need a new something, a new 

324
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:11,700
understanding. 
And then, as mentioned, been 

325
00:15:11,700 --> 00:15:14,800
oneg, coming up with the 
preferred motion pathway, and 

326
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:16,200
then the Comfort filter is 
going. 

327
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,900
You know, certain people move in
a certain way and you're the 

328
00:15:18,900 --> 00:15:22,900
footwork really needs to support
their preferred movement path. 

329
00:15:22,900 --> 00:15:25,900
Whatever that is and you can 
guide a little bit but you may 

330
00:15:25,900 --> 00:15:27,000
not always want to mess with 
that. 

331
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,900
And then the other thing is 
Despite all these by mechanical 

332
00:15:29,900 --> 00:15:31,700
models. 
Yes, bike meant by mechanics 

333
00:15:31,700 --> 00:15:34,200
applies sometimes, but we found 
that Comfort is a major 

334
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,000
predictor of someone's success 
with a running shoe. 

335
00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,000
So going, you know, there are 
plenty of people who have very 

336
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,600
stiff rigid feet. 
They do very well with a medial 

337
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:44,600
post, they just find it 
comfortable. 

338
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:46,800
There are mechanisms, we don't 
understand yet. 

339
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,900
And there are others who have 
very flat feet where the 

340
00:15:49,900 --> 00:15:51,400
conventional like hey you have 
flat feet. 

341
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,000
You need our support and they do
terribly and they do fine in a 

342
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,100
neutral shoe, right? 
It's it was challenging to 

343
00:15:58,100 --> 00:15:59,400
realize. 
Things aren't matching. 

344
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,400
We have to kind of move in a 
different way and then the 

345
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,400
industry because of a lot of the
stuff they actually started. 

346
00:16:04,500 --> 00:16:06,300
We started losing stability 
issues going. 

347
00:16:06,300 --> 00:16:09,300
Hey, based on current things. 
Some of these aren't selling, as

348
00:16:09,300 --> 00:16:12,800
well as our inline neutral shoes
Brooks was really smart because 

349
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,700
they took their neutral shoe and
basically said, hey, here's the 

350
00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:19,200
new version. 
And we're going to put the guide

351
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,900
rails on this and that's our 
stability shoe or going to not 

352
00:16:21,900 --> 00:16:24,200
confuse the consumers much. 
There's not two totally 

353
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,100
different shoes and they're 
still doing that but there was a

354
00:16:27,100 --> 00:16:30,300
significant decrease. 
People buying these shoes not 

355
00:16:30,300 --> 00:16:32,400
saying everybody got rid of it, 
there are still people that love

356
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,500
the Keanu or in super upset if 
that ever went away. 

357
00:16:34,500 --> 00:16:38,500
But it was it was D, the sales 
are decreasing. 

358
00:16:38,500 --> 00:16:43,300
So companies had to go, we need 
to evolve since our, our, our 

359
00:16:43,308 --> 00:16:47,100
understanding and our customers 
understanding is evolving as 

360
00:16:47,100 --> 00:16:48,500
well. 
So it's as usual is 

361
00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:50,700
multifactorial. 
Yeah, that's interesting. 

362
00:16:50,700 --> 00:16:54,600
I think two quick things one. 
I feel like we also have to give

363
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,000
a nod to Matt Trudeau for the 
preferred movement parallel. 

364
00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,700
Yes, I think that's I think 
that's his Baby and then been, 

365
00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:02,200
oh, kind of like co-signed on it
if I'm no idea if I'm 

366
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:03,800
remembering right? 
Yeah, I'm sorry. 

367
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,599
Yeah, for sure. 
I'm sorry. 

368
00:17:07,300 --> 00:17:09,599
It's okay. 
I think just making sure we give

369
00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:13,200
him a quick nod for that but 
he's I mean he leads the, the 

370
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,599
research lab at Brooks, but he 
has a history of working in 

371
00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:19,800
independent labs and did a lot 
of development of those kinds of

372
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,700
models, really smart guy. 
And then the other guy, by the 

373
00:17:23,700 --> 00:17:27,300
way, it last started in his Ph.D
would like wrist and handle and 

374
00:17:27,300 --> 00:17:29,900
stuffy, yeah. 
And then now like foot like 

375
00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:32,500
Footwear biomechanics expert, 
which is pretty awesome, pretty 

376
00:17:32,500 --> 00:17:35,000
cool. 
Another thing that I've heard 

377
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,200
very often through my time, like
before I was a PT and even when 

378
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,500
I was early in my career, when I
didn't quite have a grasp on 

379
00:17:42,500 --> 00:17:44,800
some of these Concepts and what 
I really thought about them, and

380
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,300
why a couple things that I heard
was often, that new Runners 

381
00:17:48,300 --> 00:17:49,600
should get a shoe with 
stability. 

382
00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:52,900
And then I also remember just a 
good friend of mine who we were 

383
00:17:52,900 --> 00:17:54,100
going to run a marathon 
together. 

384
00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:56,400
He's like, yeah, I just picked 
up a stability shoe because I 

385
00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:00,200
figured by the time I'm at mile.
20, I'm going to be tired and 

386
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,300
having that extra support is 
going to be really helpful. 

387
00:18:03,300 --> 00:18:05,300
So, is there any Merit to those 
things? 

388
00:18:05,300 --> 00:18:07,900
That new Runners should use 
stability, shoes, and that we 

389
00:18:07,900 --> 00:18:11,000
should use debility shoes for X.
We're going to get tired because

390
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,800
we need that extra support. 
When we do get tired or is that 

391
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:16,800
kind of? 
What should we do with those 

392
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:18,500
kinds of thoughts? 
Because logically, they can make

393
00:18:18,500 --> 00:18:21,700
sense, you know, they can be 
convinced for a while and I just

394
00:18:21,700 --> 00:18:23,900
want to know what your thoughts 
are on those kinds of 

395
00:18:23,908 --> 00:18:25,600
statements. 
Yeah and those are those are 

396
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:27,300
great questions. 
I could definitely understand 

397
00:18:27,300 --> 00:18:30,200
where those came from. 
I think it's really, you know, 

398
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,100
I'm sorry, I know that our 
students hate us for this. 

399
00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:34,800
It's going to depend. 
I think there isn't Merit, 

400
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,500
except for certain populations 
of people that maybe might need 

401
00:18:37,500 --> 00:18:39,200
it. 
And it goes into who actually 

402
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,000
needs us to bility shoe. 
So a new Runner, right? 

403
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:46,300
So if you are just getting into 
running, you really if possible 

404
00:18:46,300 --> 00:18:49,600
need to go, find a running store
where you can try some stuff on 

405
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,300
and figure out if it's 
comfortable and then you need to

406
00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:56,300
go run it for my conversation, 
with Simon Barr told. 

407
00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,200
Our thought is one of the 
biggest things you're getting 

408
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,200
used. 
To as a new Runner, is the 

409
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,000
impact of running dealing with 
the forces and all that stuff. 

410
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,900
So, you know, some people might 
need it. 

411
00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:08,100
If they have a, they have a 
little harder time, controlling 

412
00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:09,500
that motion. 
They need a little bit more 

413
00:19:09,500 --> 00:19:11,700
guidance, but I would definitely
not say it's a blanket 

414
00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:14,000
statement. 
And, you know, we talked about 

415
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,300
how maybe new Runners might 
benefit from a shoe with more 

416
00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:21,400
cushioning and maybe a stable 
neutral shoe potentially but 

417
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,100
immediately assuming they're 
going to benefit from a 

418
00:19:23,108 --> 00:19:26,300
stability shoe is probably not 
the best because there are many 

419
00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:28,400
people that do not work well 
with them. 

420
00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:31,100
And that actually might cause 
more issues, so I don't think 

421
00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:34,900
that's, there's Merit to that 
thought. 

422
00:19:34,900 --> 00:19:36,800
I understand where it comes from
because that's what one of the 

423
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,100
things I was told back in the 
day, but I think it will depend 

424
00:19:40,100 --> 00:19:42,300
on. 
You need to figure out is that 

425
00:19:42,300 --> 00:19:44,000
comfortable? 
And look at their history. 

426
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,800
Have they had any issues related
to pronation? 

427
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:49,200
Or what have you? 
Because that's really what the 

428
00:19:49,208 --> 00:19:52,300
evidence says, if you have a 
history of these issues, then 

429
00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:54,900
maybe you should consider that. 
But if you don't, I would stick 

430
00:19:54,900 --> 00:19:57,500
with what we call a stable 
neutral, more cushion stable, 

431
00:19:57,500 --> 00:20:00,900
neutral shoe, All right, and I 
think, I think one of the big 

432
00:20:00,900 --> 00:20:04,500
things that we have in our back 
pocket is there's a good amount 

433
00:20:04,500 --> 00:20:08,100
of huge studies and systematic 
reviews, looking at risks for 

434
00:20:08,100 --> 00:20:12,200
injury and they have Footwear as
a category and the things that 

435
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:17,100
have been found in the biggest 
systematic review, we have from,

436
00:20:17,100 --> 00:20:19,600
I think it's from 2014, so it's 
been a while. 

437
00:20:20,100 --> 00:20:22,500
It would be interesting, maybe 
if there's anything changes with

438
00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:26,200
some of the new Footwear 
technology but what the things 

439
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,900
that they found that increased 
risk for Is being a new Runner 

440
00:20:29,900 --> 00:20:33,400
within your first two years of 
running having an injury in the 

441
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,300
last 12 months, and running more
than 40 miles per week. 

442
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,900
Those are the only three things 
that really stick out as being 

443
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,900
high, evidence for risk of 
injury shoes. 

444
00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:48,200
Just are so hard to nail down 
and so should a new my opinion 

445
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,900
on this. 
That question my own question is

446
00:20:50,900 --> 00:20:52,200
that lamed answer my own 
question? 

447
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:56,500
Maybe a little bit but I think 
my research is by the way. 

448
00:20:57,700 --> 00:20:59,900
Sure that's a Good point. 
Well, I exist. 

449
00:20:59,900 --> 00:21:02,600
So let me go for it out. 
Except you're getting your 

450
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,600
answer from other data points 
but I agree. 

451
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,600
I understand, right? 
But my take on that question. 

452
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,300
About shouldn't you Runners have
stability issues? 

453
00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:14,400
I'm like, probably not or I 
wouldn't Bank on that, but go 

454
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,200
try on shoes. 
The best we have right now is 

455
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,300
find the thing. 
That's most comfortable that 

456
00:21:18,300 --> 00:21:19,900
could change in two years from 
now. 

457
00:21:20,300 --> 00:21:23,600
I'd probably what. 
Yeah, but for right now, go 

458
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,300
ahead and try out. 
What's most comfortable for you.

459
00:21:27,500 --> 00:21:32,000
I had a Young High School 
freshman Runner and their 

460
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,700
parents were asking me some 
questions and I that was my 

461
00:21:34,700 --> 00:21:37,200
recommendations for them. 
It wasn't go get a stability 

462
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,000
shoe. 
They said we were told we should

463
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,700
get a shoe. 
That's has some stability, some 

464
00:21:41,700 --> 00:21:43,700
arch, support built-in. 
What do you think on that? 

465
00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:48,800
And my recommendation was that 
maybe but I would say probably 

466
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,000
not needed. 
I would go find something that 

467
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,000
actually feels good under your 
foot and gave him some 

468
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,400
recommendations for cheap shoes 
because high schoolers grow. 

469
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,300
So that was my, that's my 
recommendation. 

470
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,800
Station that's also challenging 
as the term arch support is 

471
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,600
definitely a Hot Topic or it's a
what not a hot topic was the 

472
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,400
does work. 
It's a buzzword and I don't I 

473
00:22:08,408 --> 00:22:10,000
don't mean. 
Hopefully, this doesn't come 

474
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:11,000
off. 
Rude. 

475
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,400
You have to realize the majority
of healthcare professionals. 

476
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:18,900
Have zero training on Footwear. 
Yeah and very have little not so

477
00:22:18,900 --> 00:22:20,900
they'll go oh more arch support 
is better. 

478
00:22:20,900 --> 00:22:22,800
All this stuff wouldn't really 
for some people like actually be

479
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,000
detrimental so be very careful 
with that. 

480
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,900
Unless the unless you really 
know, hey, I Would really 

481
00:22:28,900 --> 00:22:31,900
benefit because I have this 
pathology this, pathology and 

482
00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:33,800
the evidence suggested that 
might be beneficial. 

483
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,100
They can't give you that just to
get a shoe with arch support. 

484
00:22:37,100 --> 00:22:39,900
I would, I would ask some more 
questions about that, just 

485
00:22:39,900 --> 00:22:42,400
because it is a buzzword, and 
people often will say that when 

486
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,700
they might mean something else, 
which is something I've run into

487
00:22:44,700 --> 00:22:48,500
where people might mean, they'll
say I want more support, and 

488
00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:51,600
what they don't realize is the 
support, usually means art 

489
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,900
support and they are meaning, I 
want more cushioning. 

490
00:22:54,300 --> 00:22:58,100
So make sure you clarify like 
what exactly you talking about 

491
00:22:58,100 --> 00:22:59,200
why? 
Why should I have this? 

492
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,900
But back on topic that second 
question. 

493
00:23:02,900 --> 00:23:05,300
You brought up going a hey, I 
want to stability shoe because 

494
00:23:05,300 --> 00:23:09,000
I'm going to fatigue later in 
like a longer race. 

495
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,500
Yeah. 
Again it's, that's it. 

496
00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:14,600
If you're someone that needs 
that there might be some Merit 

497
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:16,100
to that, but you're not going to
know that. 

498
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:18,700
Unless you kind of test it out 
on long runs, which you should 

499
00:23:18,700 --> 00:23:22,500
be doing before your goal race 
and figuring out, hey, if I use 

500
00:23:22,500 --> 00:23:25,500
its ability shoe, does it 
actually make me feel better in 

501
00:23:25,500 --> 00:23:27,700
those later miles? 
If it does, there might be some 

502
00:23:27,700 --> 00:23:31,200
Merit for You as an individual 
using that but you're assuming 

503
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,600
that your foot is the only thing
that's going to that's impacting

504
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,600
your mechanics and that's 
fatiguing right? 

505
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,800
Because you're also going to 
have other muscles up. 

506
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,500
The chain that are good fatigue 
and you might find for certain 

507
00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:44,200
people, yet the foots, the 
primary issue a little stability

508
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,400
later on, might be good but if 
not that actually could cause 

509
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,100
some issues if your foot is 
really how you shock absorb and 

510
00:23:51,100 --> 00:23:53,900
you take that away. 
And now you have to use more of 

511
00:23:53,900 --> 00:23:56,000
like if your hip is the thing 
that's fatiguing. 

512
00:23:56,300 --> 00:23:57,700
So it's a fancy way of saying 
it. 

513
00:23:57,700 --> 00:24:01,000
Might, But it also might not it 
also be might be more 

514
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,200
problematic. 
So you have to figure out, hey 

515
00:24:03,300 --> 00:24:06,300
test, it just like people ask 
like, hey should I use a Super 

516
00:24:06,300 --> 00:24:07,600
Shoes? 
Like, well go find out, if 

517
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,800
actually helps you on those long
runs because the last thing you 

518
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,500
want is to use something, you 
think is going to help you, but 

519
00:24:12,500 --> 00:24:14,600
then when you get to, those 
miles is actually causing you a 

520
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:18,000
problem. 
So again, it will depend on what

521
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,500
the person needs. 
These shoes are tools and 

522
00:24:20,500 --> 00:24:24,100
finally figuring out which tool 
works for you is going to be the

523
00:24:24,108 --> 00:24:25,900
biggest thing. 
You can assume that they will 

524
00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:29,000
work the same for everyone, 
which I know As people not said,

525
00:24:29,008 --> 00:24:31,200
it's listen to this, but that's 
that's the reality. 

526
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,400
And so if we go into the topic 
of the shoe construction itself,

527
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,400
can we talked about the history 
of posts? 

528
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,600
Yeah, I kind of used the word 
new technology. 

529
00:24:42,900 --> 00:24:45,800
Is there really any new 
technology that's being used in 

530
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,300
stability shoes or what? 
What when we say technology I 

531
00:24:49,308 --> 00:24:51,700
think that word can even get 
lost in translation. 

532
00:24:51,700 --> 00:24:53,800
Like what do we mean by 
technology? 

533
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,600
As it comes to current structure
of stability shoes, and what do 

534
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,100
they look like? 
Yeah, I have to I have to admit,

535
00:25:00,100 --> 00:25:03,100
I don't think the actual 
technology is totally new. 

536
00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:06,200
I think the understanding is new
because all the factors are 

537
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,100
things that, you know, you and I
were commenting on and shoes 

538
00:25:09,100 --> 00:25:11,500
years ago, like, hey, there's a 
side wall and nobody was 

539
00:25:11,500 --> 00:25:14,500
intending for some of these 
things to add stability, but 

540
00:25:14,500 --> 00:25:15,900
they did. 
And that's part of what? 

541
00:25:15,900 --> 00:25:18,500
Doctors running. 
As someone who needs a little 

542
00:25:18,500 --> 00:25:20,500
stability. 
I didn't want to just run and 

543
00:25:20,500 --> 00:25:22,800
stability because I wanted to 
see other things and try other 

544
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,400
things. 
So, it's really taking things 

545
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,600
that were already there and 
going, oh, this actually works. 

546
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,400
So, how do we All of this a 
little bit more so speaking of a

547
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:32,500
couple things. 
So yeah. 

548
00:25:32,500 --> 00:25:34,800
So the New Balance 860 is a 
great example. 

549
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,500
The shoe I'm holding right now 
of a shoe that blends the stuff 

550
00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:39,900
really well. 
Yes, you got a medial post here.

551
00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:41,700
This little outline for the 
listeners. 

552
00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:45,600
It's on the inner side of the 
medial side of more dense foam 

553
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,700
on the inner side. 
But there's these other things 

554
00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:51,300
that companies were using more 
to secure the foot rather than 

555
00:25:51,300 --> 00:25:54,500
provide guidance for stability. 
But some of these three things 

556
00:25:54,500 --> 00:25:56,600
include sidewalls, right? 
These think they're part of the 

557
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,900
midsole that comes up along the 
the edge of the shoe Hoka was 

558
00:25:59,900 --> 00:26:02,800
really popular for use in this 
to try to like lock the foot 

559
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,100
down and kind of have it sit in 
the midsole because when you 

560
00:26:05,100 --> 00:26:09,000
have a very tall shoe the 
tallest shoot is the more 

561
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,200
inherently unstable. 
It is from the softer foam 

562
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,800
zorbing up higher. 
So they figure out how do we 

563
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:15,100
like, keep the foot on the 
platform. 

564
00:26:15,100 --> 00:26:18,300
So one idea was, hey, let's have
the sole come up around the 

565
00:26:18,300 --> 00:26:22,400
foot, which not intentionally, 
that actually tends to work 

566
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,400
really well for some people to 
help, keep them forward, because

567
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,000
they'll run the soul to trying 
to move. 

568
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,000
That way when you say work 
really well, Yeah. 

569
00:26:29,900 --> 00:26:32,300
What do you mean by that? 
And how do you know, it works 

570
00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:33,900
really well? 
Like, what does that? 

571
00:26:33,900 --> 00:26:36,200
What does that mean? 
Does it mean that you've seen 

572
00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:39,000
studies on treadmills? 
That look at pronation, or like,

573
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,200
what do you mean by that? 
Yeah, that's a good question. 

574
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,700
Because right now, we had don't 
have any evidence on this stuff,

575
00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:46,200
this really, it sounds terrible 
but it's testimonial and 

576
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,000
practicing and practice on 
myself and other people 

577
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,900
experimental all of us 
experimenting where people go. 

578
00:26:51,900 --> 00:26:53,300
That's it little. 
Yeah. 

579
00:26:53,300 --> 00:26:57,400
So it's like, wait, say it 
again, I said that's one level 

580
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:05,600
of evidence like that. 
It's part of it part of it. 

581
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,400
That's true. 
Yeah but it came from going, you

582
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,900
know, hey I can, why is it that 
I can wear this shoe that 

583
00:27:10,900 --> 00:27:13,800
supposedly neutral and I don't 
have the issues that I normally 

584
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,100
get in a quote-unquote neutral 
shoe and it's like, oh, I can go

585
00:27:17,100 --> 00:27:19,600
run 15-20 miles on this, and I 
was getting the same thing. 

586
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,200
People were telling me the same 
thing suggesting this, and 

587
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,800
again, it didn't always change 
people's mechanics, but it made 

588
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,400
them feel better. 
And they didn't have a lot of 

589
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,200
the issues or fatigue problems. 
They Add with kind of classic 

590
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,300
neutral shoes. 
So like, oh, that's interesting.

591
00:27:32,300 --> 00:27:34,600
I wonder if there's some Merit 
to this and more. 

592
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,700
We've kind of tested ESX. 
We all we have right now is 

593
00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:39,200
expert opinion, but it seems to 
be working well for certain 

594
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,300
groups of people that do well 
myself being one of them. 

595
00:27:42,300 --> 00:27:45,400
So these things called sidewalls
are one thing we're kind of 

596
00:27:45,408 --> 00:27:48,200
comes up. 
And so they'll usually, it's my 

597
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,400
opinion, is that it works 
better, if it's on both sides of

598
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,400
the shoe because you don't want 
to push somebody too far One 

599
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,300
Direction you want to keep them 
in the middle. 

600
00:27:54,900 --> 00:27:57,400
The Brooks The Brook. 
Stability issues. 

601
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,300
Also do a great job. 
Job with this with the guide 

602
00:27:59,300 --> 00:28:01,400
rails because it's on the 
lateral and medial side even 

603
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,300
with the post. 
So sidewalls is one way an old 

604
00:28:05,300 --> 00:28:07,700
old way. 
So this is definitely not new is

605
00:28:07,700 --> 00:28:09,900
the last or the shape of the 
shoe, right. 

606
00:28:09,900 --> 00:28:13,200
So a lot of shoes, especially as
the in this is older concept, 

607
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,000
like the racing shoes have two 
very curved last meeting. 

608
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,100
Even though your foot might be 
straight, the midsole curved 

609
00:28:19,100 --> 00:28:24,200
around in the arch was cut out 
and the another concept for 

610
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,000
older stability, shoes was 
filling in the the mid-foot and 

611
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:29,900
a more Street. 
Last had give you a little bit 

612
00:28:29,900 --> 00:28:33,200
more resistance side to side. 
So people they thought would 

613
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,800
kind of go forward a little bit 
that isn't a New Concept but 

614
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,200
it's being used more frequently.
Now we're going hey, you know, 

615
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:40,500
maybe if you want to make this 
shoe a little bit more 

616
00:28:40,500 --> 00:28:43,400
inherently, stable, don't cut 
the mid-foot out. 

617
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,200
Look at other ways to cut weight
because maybe we want this to be

618
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,600
a little bit more like stable 
inherently. 

619
00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:51,400
So, when you have pieces cut 
out, unless you add more 

620
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,000
stiffness, you might fall into 
that direction. 

621
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,600
So, filling things in was one 
way, which goes to another thing

622
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,600
called soulflayer. 
And that's That refers to how 

623
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,700
far yeah go for it before you go
to the soulflayer, just to make 

624
00:29:02,700 --> 00:29:06,300
sure that we're using terms 
right on last. 

625
00:29:06,300 --> 00:29:10,800
Are you currently referring to 
the the interaction between the 

626
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:11,700
shoot? 
I think. 

627
00:29:11,700 --> 00:29:12,900
Yeah. 
But the interaction between the 

628
00:29:12,900 --> 00:29:15,500
shoe and the ground, correct. 
So you're talking about the 

629
00:29:15,500 --> 00:29:18,800
platform structure. 
So the platform as interacts 

630
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,300
with the ground is, yeah. 
All the way filled in now and 

631
00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:26,100
not cut out in the middle, like,
I'm thinking back to man, like 

632
00:29:26,100 --> 00:29:34,200
the classic Asics. 
Kayano like six years ago, had a

633
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,900
plastic shank in the middle but 
no rubber coverage, and it was 

634
00:29:37,900 --> 00:29:40,100
not all the way filled in. 
So you're talking about the 

635
00:29:40,100 --> 00:29:43,500
interaction, the last is that is
the shape of the foot that they 

636
00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:46,800
build the upper around and the 
platform that your foot goes on 

637
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:48,900
not the contact to the ground. 
So right. 

638
00:29:48,900 --> 00:29:49,200
Right. 
Right. 

639
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:50,800
Yeah. 
That whole section was all about

640
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:51,700
platform. 
Yeah. 

641
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,400
Platform shoe. 
Contact with the ground but a 

642
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,700
great example of a straight 
lasted shoe which again the 

643
00:29:57,700 --> 00:30:01,200
thought was Was and I can see 
why they think this the this the

644
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,200
more straight, right? 
So the mid-foot is filled in 

645
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:05,800
right? 
The more straight, the shoe is 

646
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:07,000
supposed more. 
Stable. 

647
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,200
It was the Saucony Echelon which
is a neutral shoe technically, 

648
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,300
but it's a great example for 
years of what I think is stable 

649
00:30:13,300 --> 00:30:15,000
neutral shoe. 
Is it? 

650
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,000
You can see the midsole it's not
curved, it's not leaving any One

651
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:19,600
Direction. 
It's very, very straight. 

652
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,800
So that concept was hey, the 
more straight last shoe was the 

653
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,900
more inherently stable just 
because you got kind of more 

654
00:30:24,900 --> 00:30:27,000
foam on both sides. 
Yeah. 

655
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,100
So soulflayer is Of the similar 
concept, we're talking about 

656
00:30:30,100 --> 00:30:34,200
having the soul, extend farther 
beyond the foot and what the 

657
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,100
conventional wisdom was and this
has been used in orthopedic 

658
00:30:37,100 --> 00:30:39,100
shoes for years, but then 
running shoes. 

659
00:30:39,100 --> 00:30:40,300
What? 
Hey, guess we can use this. 

660
00:30:40,700 --> 00:30:43,900
If you have a part of the 
midsole extending out, you are 

661
00:30:43,900 --> 00:30:46,700
going to get inherent resistance
into that motion. 

662
00:30:46,700 --> 00:30:49,800
So if you go up solar flare 
lateral, when you are rolling 

663
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,700
through that, if you try to roll
out, there's just geometrically.

664
00:30:52,700 --> 00:30:54,800
There's more stuff in the way. 
So it's going to have more 

665
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,500
resistance that if you have more
Soulful immediately, you're 

666
00:30:57,500 --> 00:31:00,600
going to have more or resistance
to that same direction. 

667
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,800
So they can use essentially 
geometry of the of the shoe to 

668
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,700
provide resistance to different 
directions, all along the length

669
00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:11,800
of the shoe. 
So I think that that's been a, I

670
00:31:11,808 --> 00:31:14,400
think from a technology 
standpoint, it's been the 

671
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:20,200
combination of new Foams that 
overall might have an, it does 

672
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,600
have an impact on how our bodies
interacting with the ground. 

673
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,200
So these new phones are doing 
that and now you're you're using

674
00:31:28,500 --> 00:31:32,100
Old strategies, with newt New 
materials. 

675
00:31:32,100 --> 00:31:33,700
And I think that's what we're 
seeing. 

676
00:31:33,700 --> 00:31:36,400
These shoes are more 
approachable for a lot of people

677
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,700
and less harsh. 
They just don't feel as extreme.

678
00:31:39,700 --> 00:31:42,700
I think that's, that's how I 
would describe the last two 

679
00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:45,700
years of stability issues as 
they become less extreme, and 

680
00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:48,300
more approachable for the 
masses. 

681
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,700
I would definitely agree. 
There is one again. 

682
00:31:50,700 --> 00:31:53,700
It's still working on Geometry 
but some shoes have now been 

683
00:31:53,700 --> 00:31:57,000
working on actually having okay,
I guess that's actually not new 

684
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,600
because even posted That right 
where you had two different 

685
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,300
densities of foes Foams, but now
people are tending to put those 

686
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,300
like firmer densities on both 
sides of the foot and having 

687
00:32:06,300 --> 00:32:09,300
soccer phones in the middle. 
So, the contrast is the same, 

688
00:32:09,300 --> 00:32:12,400
but I agree with you where and 
some people have complained 

689
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,100
about this. 
So we're over the last couple 

690
00:32:14,100 --> 00:32:17,600
years, stability, shoes have 
gotten a lot less aggressive, 

691
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,400
and that might be partly. 
Trying to make them feel a 

692
00:32:19,408 --> 00:32:21,600
little bit more broad of people 
because the old ones. 

693
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,400
If you, you know, I've and I 
think, you know, Nathan, you 

694
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,100
might be a good example of this.
Where in the past early on, 

695
00:32:28,300 --> 00:32:30,500
Doing this. 
You are very sensitive stability

696
00:32:30,500 --> 00:32:31,800
shoes. 
And you know, the second, you 

697
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,700
put one on and start bugging 
you, but I think you've had a 

698
00:32:33,700 --> 00:32:36,400
couple experiences reason. 
You're like I should not be 

699
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,200
liking those but this is 
actually doing really, really 

700
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,300
well for my foot right? 
And my body. 

701
00:32:41,300 --> 00:32:43,500
I can you give us a couple 
examples of how that's worked 

702
00:32:43,500 --> 00:32:44,500
for you. 
Yeah. 

703
00:32:44,500 --> 00:32:46,700
I remember who, what was what's 
the? 

704
00:32:46,700 --> 00:32:50,500
It was a, it was one of the 361 
stability shoes, 361, sensation.

705
00:32:50,500 --> 00:32:51,900
I still remember. 
I don't know why I can't 

706
00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:53,900
remember the exact I still 
fishing for. 

707
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,800
I remember the exact place I was
at when you told me that for 

708
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,700
some reason, Even I have no, I 
was in Pasadena on a run and 

709
00:33:00,700 --> 00:33:01,900
remember you sent me that 
message? 

710
00:33:01,900 --> 00:33:05,300
I looked, I don't know why is 
that, but but that was a very 

711
00:33:05,300 --> 00:33:08,200
classic like what would be 
considered a moderate stability 

712
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:12,500
shoe at the time and I would get
two miles into any, any run with

713
00:33:12,500 --> 00:33:16,900
a shoe like that and I would 
just get louder on the pain and 

714
00:33:16,900 --> 00:33:21,200
my foot would just feel weird. 
So, I just didn't have a lot of 

715
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,100
luck with it, pretty much any 
shoe like that. 

716
00:33:23,100 --> 00:33:26,700
So I stopped testing stability, 
shoes for a while and then in 

717
00:33:26,700 --> 00:33:29,500
the last couple years, The other
one that I actually didn't do 

718
00:33:29,500 --> 00:33:34,900
well with was the Kayano light 
to and I think that the flaring 

719
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,100
was just so much for me. 
So it felt because of how I 

720
00:33:38,100 --> 00:33:40,800
landed because it's flared out. 
That also increases the lever 

721
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,700
arm when you land depending on 
where you land and so it really 

722
00:33:44,900 --> 00:33:47,000
Jarred be One Direction. 
So I didn't do well with that 

723
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,800
shoe just from like a enjoyment 
standpoint. 

724
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,700
I didn't get hurt in it but 
shoes like even the forza from 

725
00:33:53,700 --> 00:33:55,900
Skechers r.i.p. 
I don't think they're making 

726
00:33:55,900 --> 00:33:57,600
that you anymore. 
I know. 

727
00:33:57,900 --> 00:33:59,600
But Get yours. 
Come on, you can do it. 

728
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,100
That's you. 
I did well with, I did well with

729
00:34:03,100 --> 00:34:04,900
the most recent Triumph. 
All right. 

730
00:34:04,900 --> 00:34:07,600
P or no? 
Sorry hurricane. 

731
00:34:07,900 --> 00:34:08,800
Yeah. 
All right, P. 

732
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:13,199
Again I did well with that you 
we think the trying to Triumph 

733
00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:15,300
is still around. 
I think the Triumph of this are 

734
00:34:15,300 --> 00:34:17,300
planning to keep it around. 
Yeah. 

735
00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:22,500
The Tempest I did well with and 
then New Balance the prism I did

736
00:34:22,500 --> 00:34:26,400
well within the vong go. 
So there's a lot of these shoes 

737
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,600
now that I just said, I'm not. 
Issues with anymore and a part 

738
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,199
of that could be that I'm 
changing, right? 

739
00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:35,400
So yeah, we know that ye are our
bodies and our running. 

740
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,699
And I might be just more 
resilient now than I was three 

741
00:34:38,699 --> 00:34:41,699
or four years ago, just because 
I've had more miles under my 

742
00:34:41,699 --> 00:34:45,500
belt, but I do think from a what
I feel when I run standpoint it 

743
00:34:45,500 --> 00:34:49,199
just definitely feels. 
Like I said, less extreme more 

744
00:34:49,500 --> 00:34:52,800
more smooth. 
And yeah, I don't know, just a 

745
00:34:52,808 --> 00:34:54,199
clunky anymore. 
Yeah. 

746
00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:57,500
I think they have improved like 
even something as classic as the

747
00:34:57,500 --> 00:35:01,300
recent Actions of the Keanu and 
the in spill, the Asics Keanu, 

748
00:35:01,300 --> 00:35:03,800
and the Mizuno Wave, Inspire 
like these. 

749
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,700
You know, I've liked these for 
patients, but for me, I've 

750
00:35:06,700 --> 00:35:09,100
always found these fairly clunky
and been like, hey, when I get 

751
00:35:09,100 --> 00:35:12,300
these on like, oh gosh, she's 
gonna be some rough miles, but I

752
00:35:12,308 --> 00:35:14,100
gotta get this for the people, 
great. 

753
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,900
But what I have found like, I 
actually enjoy putting these on 

754
00:35:17,900 --> 00:35:21,300
and I'm actually someone who as 
I've progressed I'm going, I'm 

755
00:35:21,300 --> 00:35:23,100
going the opposite way. 
And Nathan were, I actually have

756
00:35:23,100 --> 00:35:26,100
been a little more sensitive to 
stability shoes now and I'm kind

757
00:35:26,100 --> 00:35:27,600
of doing a little bit better in 
neutral stuff. 

758
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,800
That said, these feel lighter. 
The stability is definitely less

759
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,300
aggressive. 
And I know some people might 

760
00:35:33,300 --> 00:35:36,500
worry like, oh, it's, you know, 
I have less of it, but I say, I 

761
00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:39,600
think these shoes are more more 
well-rounded where you're 

762
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,400
getting it instead of just 
getting it from one particular 

763
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,300
area. 
They're now using kind of a 

764
00:35:44,300 --> 00:35:47,200
variety of methods where yes, 
the aggressiveness decreases or 

765
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,300
the, I don't know if you can 
call the level of stability, but

766
00:35:50,300 --> 00:35:53,500
it's coming down the way that 
feels more accessible to people 

767
00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:57,500
that can handle this and also is
kind of helping too. 

768
00:35:58,500 --> 00:36:01,700
I'm hesitant to use this word 
but support or I say, let's say 

769
00:36:01,900 --> 00:36:04,300
help guide your foot in a 
greater variety of ways. 

770
00:36:04,300 --> 00:36:06,200
So instead of being super 
aggressive, it's kind of going. 

771
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,300
Let's gently use a cup of like a
couple different restaurants so 

772
00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:12,000
one doesn't end up being too 
extreme and I can see that 

773
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,400
across the industry. 
Yeah, cool. 

774
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,200
So I've had a couple more 
questions for you. 

775
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,700
I think one we would be remiss 
and people would ask for this if

776
00:36:22,700 --> 00:36:25,600
we didn't bring it up. 
But what about those people who?

777
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,800
So we talked about pronation and
the term over. 

778
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:29,300
Our nation's thrown out a lot. 
Yeah. 

779
00:36:29,300 --> 00:36:31,300
What about people who are 
worried about going the other 

780
00:36:31,300 --> 00:36:33,100
way? 
The people usually say, I have a

781
00:36:33,100 --> 00:36:34,700
higher Arch. 
What should I be thinking about 

782
00:36:34,700 --> 00:36:38,400
with stability or I supinate. 
What should I do if I run on the

783
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,700
outside of my foot? 
What do we think about stability

784
00:36:41,700 --> 00:36:44,300
in those? 
I put stability again and air 

785
00:36:44,300 --> 00:36:46,800
quotes because of the nebulous 
nature of it. 

786
00:36:46,900 --> 00:36:49,100
What do you think about it for 
people in that category? 

787
00:36:49,100 --> 00:36:51,400
And how do you approach that 
from a fashion perspective? 

788
00:36:51,700 --> 00:36:53,600
You know, at regardless, which 
motion? 

789
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,700
Even if you go too far lateral, 
you need people. 

790
00:36:56,700 --> 00:36:57,900
You need just as much of 
attention. 

791
00:36:58,100 --> 00:36:59,400
Right. 
And I think what's really nice 

792
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,700
is instead of just going over, 
only going to handle people to 

793
00:37:01,700 --> 00:37:04,700
go in her inside. 
A lot of these shoes are 

794
00:37:04,700 --> 00:37:07,400
intentionally putting some of 
these messes on the outside 

795
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,000
because the goal is not to force
you. 

796
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,400
In One Direction is to keep you 
more centered. 

797
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,600
So people that supinate or they 
supinate beyond what they can, 

798
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,700
they can handle, there is plenty
of stuff if even a lot of 

799
00:37:18,700 --> 00:37:21,100
traditional media, stability, 
shoes, you're seeing side walls 

800
00:37:21,100 --> 00:37:23,400
in the outside. 
The Tempest is a great option 

801
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,400
where you've had the concept of 
stability on both the lateral 

802
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,600
and medial side of the foot. 
But I'm thinking of the, the 

803
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,400
Hoka araki was actually an early
early start to this where and 

804
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,400
the same thing with the Brooks 
choose where you have a guide 

805
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,000
rail on that lateral side so 
it's trying to keep you 

806
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,100
centered. 
So people that have the 

807
00:37:42,100 --> 00:37:44,200
sensitivity to going too far 
out. 

808
00:37:44,300 --> 00:37:46,700
It is important. 
You can find stuff like that 

809
00:37:46,700 --> 00:37:49,400
shoes that have lateral solar 
flare or lateral side walls. 

810
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,300
There are now more options for 
you and even in the racing stuff

811
00:37:52,300 --> 00:37:55,400
that you'll see, so that is 
important to pay attention to. 

812
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,300
But you have to figure out is 
that motion actually Causing you

813
00:37:58,300 --> 00:38:00,100
a problem because oftentimes, 
you'll kind of see it on a 

814
00:38:00,100 --> 00:38:02,100
treadmill and your kind of 
freaked out because people use 

815
00:38:02,100 --> 00:38:04,800
the term over supination or 
overpronation. 

816
00:38:05,100 --> 00:38:08,100
And you have to realize we 
actually haven't defined a 

817
00:38:08,100 --> 00:38:10,600
specific amount of what that 
like a certain number of 

818
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,700
degrees. 
It's considered over pronation 

819
00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:15,500
or supination. 
I never once somebody suggested 

820
00:38:15,500 --> 00:38:18,000
it might be 10 degrees but 
that's just what you can see, 

821
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,200
visually, right? 
Like his, anything under 5 to 10

822
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,200
degrees, you can't really see. 
So nobody has confirmed that 

823
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,300
this degrees of pronation or 
disagrees and supination causes 

824
00:38:26,300 --> 00:38:28,800
issues. 
It's hey Hey, I tend to go a 

825
00:38:28,808 --> 00:38:31,600
little too far out this way and 
I'm having some issues as that 

826
00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:35,400
our Associates that that tissue 
is being stretched by that 

827
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,500
motion. 
So it logically I wonder if this

828
00:38:37,500 --> 00:38:40,100
might help. 
Yeah, you can find that. 

829
00:38:40,100 --> 00:38:41,600
I do have to comment really 
quick. 

830
00:38:41,700 --> 00:38:44,600
Your arch. 
Height has not been found to be 

831
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,500
a predictor of injury risk 
because you're looking at static

832
00:38:47,500 --> 00:38:49,600
or you got to look at it moving.
There's been some very good 

833
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,300
military studies that have 
looked at. 

834
00:38:51,300 --> 00:38:55,400
Hey, is prescribing shoes based 
on Arts High a valid way of 

835
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,500
changing injuries and the answer
was no. 

836
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,300
Almost no influence on 
prescribing shoes based on 

837
00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:03,000
archetype so I'm really 
encouraged. 

838
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:07,800
Yes, having a higher lower arch 
in terms of like the amount of 

839
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,100
insulin, the shoe some people 
will notice, right? 

840
00:39:10,100 --> 00:39:12,400
Is that lining up? 
Is that comfortable for you? 

841
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,400
But don't assume the height of 
your arch. 

842
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,600
Necessarily has is indicates 
what level of stability. 

843
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,000
Or what, what you need, it's 
more the motion, and if you're 

844
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,700
having issues associated with 
that motion, that's more 

845
00:39:24,900 --> 00:39:26,700
important. 
You have any thoughts on that? 

846
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,900
Yeah. 
Yeah, maybe a few. 

847
00:39:29,900 --> 00:39:32,300
I think what I think it is 
interesting. 

848
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:37,200
Yeah matching shoe type or foot 
type 2 shoe doesn't work people 

849
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,200
who have. 
It's funny how we spend so much 

850
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,500
time talking about pronation and
pronation related injuries. 

851
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:47,700
But those who have like very 
rigid arches, there is a higher 

852
00:39:47,700 --> 00:39:52,000
defeat risk for people with that
type of foot for bone stress 

853
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,700
injuries. 
And so, I think it's funny that 

854
00:39:54,700 --> 00:39:57,000
we don't give that as much 
attention, but when I do think 

855
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,600
it's really helpful. 
Is this are all of the cushion 

856
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,400
type shoes that are out there 
and I think that that might be 

857
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,800
your best bet is finding 
something that has some lateral 

858
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:11,100
solar flare and a good amount of
cushion that might be something 

859
00:40:11,100 --> 00:40:13,100
to try and if it's comfortable 
cool. 

860
00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:16,100
I also think about some of the 
issues are starting to have 

861
00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:17,900
more. 
I think it's more common to have

862
00:40:17,900 --> 00:40:23,400
a lateral heel bevel in shoes 
and my personal take on that 

863
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,500
unless it's something extreme 
like the audios Pro to was I 

864
00:40:27,500 --> 00:40:31,300
wouldn't Let a lateral heel 
bevel, scare you away from from 

865
00:40:31,300 --> 00:40:33,700
a shoe. 
If you are someone with more of 

866
00:40:33,700 --> 00:40:36,600
a who feel like you run on the 
outside of your foot that bevel 

867
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,000
part won't impact the entire 
part of your gate. 

868
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,600
In my opinion, I don't know if 
you disagree with me on that map

869
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,700
but usually they're, they're a 
little bit more mild and just 

870
00:40:45,700 --> 00:40:48,600
they just make that Landing 
smooth but they're not pushing 

871
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,100
you out to the outside most of 
the time. 

872
00:40:51,100 --> 00:40:54,100
But you have a different opinion
on that, not really. 

873
00:40:54,100 --> 00:40:56,400
I think it does come down to 
individual people because I've 

874
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,200
had individuals that Can you go 
a little far out where they've 

875
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,600
been very sensitive that but 
other ones are like, yeah, it's 

876
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,700
fine, it'll depend on where the 
motion is have try and remember 

877
00:41:04,700 --> 00:41:08,500
there is some research on bevels
that I found like lateral bevels

878
00:41:08,500 --> 00:41:13,000
that I found recently and if 
they think they can like slow 

879
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,400
down Motion in terms of how 
quick you're going medial but to

880
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,500
what degree each person is going
to respond to that, it's going 

881
00:41:19,500 --> 00:41:23,200
to vary depending on where you 
land real and bead of where 

882
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:24,000
you're going. 
Right. 

883
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:28,400
It so yeah I mean, I don't think
you should be afraid of Anything

884
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,000
unless, you know, from 
experience that that thing you 

885
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,900
don't tend to work well with. 
So yeah, I agree with you on 

886
00:41:33,900 --> 00:41:36,000
that. 
So what if I'm one of these 

887
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:41,500
people who from, from a friend, 
from a healthcare provider, from

888
00:41:41,500 --> 00:41:46,600
a PT that I was told that I need
a stability shoe, can I run in a

889
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,800
neutral shoe or do I need? 
Let's kind of maybe land the 

890
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,300
plane here or do I still need to
stability shoe? 

891
00:41:52,500 --> 00:41:55,700
Yeah, that's a great question. 
And this is actually one the one

892
00:41:55,700 --> 00:41:57,800
of the reasons why I actually 
started looking at these 

893
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,400
Elements going. 
Hey, is someone when I was young

894
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:01,700
that was told you needed, 
stability. 

895
00:42:01,700 --> 00:42:03,100
Shoot him. 
Like, I hate this. 

896
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,200
Well, we got way better 
stability shoes. 

897
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,200
Now that we do that, but they 
were clunky. 

898
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:13,300
They were uncomfortable, but 
like any shoe, right? 

899
00:42:13,300 --> 00:42:17,300
If you get take time to get used
to it or like he's into it. 

900
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,800
I really don't think there 
unless you find something that 

901
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,800
you like your foot really. 
Doesn't like if you generally 

902
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,500
need stability, it's okay to run
a neutral shoe, right? 

903
00:42:26,500 --> 00:42:29,900
If you find it comfortable. 
So if you give your body time to

904
00:42:29,908 --> 00:42:33,200
get used to it, there's really 
no problem with it's probably 

905
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:34,200
the same thing going the other 
way. 

906
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:35,700
If you're like you know what, 
I'm really interested in 

907
00:42:35,708 --> 00:42:37,800
something like the Tempest or 
I'm really interested in 

908
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,100
such-and-such shoe that it works
really well with the rest of my 

909
00:42:40,100 --> 00:42:43,700
body but I'm just nervous about 
the stability if you take time 

910
00:42:43,700 --> 00:42:45,800
to get used to it and you're 
he's your body and there's 

911
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,700
really no she can't run in, 
right? 

912
00:42:48,700 --> 00:42:51,100
You just have to find is going 
to work for me and can my body 

913
00:42:51,100 --> 00:42:53,700
adapt to it. 
So one of the reasons I started 

914
00:42:53,700 --> 00:42:57,800
talking about side walls or 
solar flare or the shape of the 

915
00:42:57,900 --> 00:43:02,700
Also was because I did do well 
with stability shoes, but I 

916
00:43:02,700 --> 00:43:05,400
wanted to want to run a neutral 
shoes to write the majority of 

917
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,100
racing shoes out there are 
neutral. 

918
00:43:07,100 --> 00:43:10,700
And yeah, I comments on shoes 
like the audios Pro 3 and 

919
00:43:10,700 --> 00:43:12,900
certain ones that tend to be a 
little bit more stable than 

920
00:43:12,900 --> 00:43:14,500
others. 
I comment on that all the time, 

921
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,200
but they're still neutral shoes.
So the answer is yes, but 

922
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,300
sometimes you can look for other
mechanisms that add guidance 

923
00:43:21,300 --> 00:43:23,300
there, that might work a little 
bit better for you. 

924
00:43:23,500 --> 00:43:26,000
And there might just be some 
shoes to the like totally wobbly

925
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:27,000
and you still want to run in 
them. 

926
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,300
And I I would probably start 
with some shorter distances if 

927
00:43:30,300 --> 00:43:34,600
they're really comfortable and 
easier way in and just like any 

928
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,100
tissue in your body in any 
training concept, if you overdo 

929
00:43:38,100 --> 00:43:41,300
it and you do more than your 
body can handle and you don't 

930
00:43:41,300 --> 00:43:44,200
recover enough from it, then you
might have an injury. 

931
00:43:44,300 --> 00:43:47,100
Was it purely? 
The shoe is probably a 

932
00:43:47,100 --> 00:43:49,600
combination of factors. 
So, yes, if you have stability 

933
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,400
to use, you can still run in a 
neutral shoe, right? 

934
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,200
It's you're not going to you. 
You will not suddenly combust 

935
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,700
upon this first. 
Step, your post hit will Explode

936
00:43:58,700 --> 00:44:01,900
off your body but you're 
probably going to need to ease 

937
00:44:01,900 --> 00:44:04,600
into it and probably work on 
some strength stuff, but you'll 

938
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,700
probably be fine if you're smart
about it, right? 

939
00:44:08,500 --> 00:44:12,200
That's great. 
And so now we're in 2023 and I 

940
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:14,600
just kind of want to hear your 
thoughts on what shoes you've 

941
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,800
tried that you like so far from 
a stability standpoint and ones 

942
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,900
you're excited about. 
And I do think I want to say one

943
00:44:19,900 --> 00:44:22,700
other thing. 
I think something that the new 

944
00:44:22,700 --> 00:44:25,300
foam technology has forced upon 
us. 

945
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,400
When I say us, it's not actually
us But Footwear designers is 

946
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,300
finding ways to take this really
compliant means squishy and 

947
00:44:33,300 --> 00:44:35,100
flowing. 
She and Steven, how do we? 

948
00:44:35,100 --> 00:44:35,900
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

949
00:44:35,900 --> 00:44:39,100
How do we make it runnable? 
And they've had to do things, 

950
00:44:39,100 --> 00:44:42,200
like, widen the base. 
That the foot platform that the 

951
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,500
shoot platform is they've had to
add sidewalls do anything that 

952
00:44:45,500 --> 00:44:48,500
they can to create some 
structure around these Foams, 

953
00:44:48,700 --> 00:44:50,600
which I think has been made them
think. 

954
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,200
Oh, we can use our old 
materials, which are really nice

955
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,100
for these neutral shoes and just
create a stability shoe out of 

956
00:44:57,100 --> 00:44:59,500
these old. 
Was so what kind of getting this

957
00:44:59,500 --> 00:45:01,500
like and they fit? 
I think that all these shoes 

958
00:45:01,500 --> 00:45:03,600
feel less harsh. 
Because now we've learned a lot 

959
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,700
about how do we stabilize really
unstable, quote-unquote, 

960
00:45:07,700 --> 00:45:11,800
unsuitables foam and materials. 
We can take those Concepts and 

961
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,400
put them in slightly, more 
structured, phone, materials and

962
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,200
have something that's really 
runnable. 

963
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,900
Which is a great, which is great
news because I think that there 

964
00:45:19,900 --> 00:45:24,300
aren't any of those they're 
still Clunkers around, but not 

965
00:45:24,300 --> 00:45:26,100
as often. 
But let's go to 2023. 

966
00:45:26,100 --> 00:45:27,700
What are you excited about for 
this year or what? 

967
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,000
Have you ran in already that 
you're really impressed by? 

968
00:45:30,300 --> 00:45:33,300
Yeah, I think it's not a 
stability shoe. 

969
00:45:33,300 --> 00:45:36,300
The, the one that I was really 
surprised in speaking of 

970
00:45:36,300 --> 00:45:38,700
alternative ways has been the 
Saucony Echelon. 

971
00:45:38,700 --> 00:45:41,700
Again, it is technically a 
neutral shoe, but just this 

972
00:45:41,700 --> 00:45:44,800
concept with the straight last, 
the side walls, all the stuff I 

973
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,700
really enjoyed this and Nathan, 
don't he? 

974
00:45:47,700 --> 00:45:52,100
You know, this a don't judge me,
but I have been nursing a mild 

975
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,500
felon Geo fracture. 
That I've been running on, 

976
00:45:54,500 --> 00:45:57,200
probably more than I should, I 
East into it so but it's been a 

977
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:58,600
great shoe. 
That that's a whole I'm 

978
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,100
definitely judging you. 
I'm not going to not judge you 

979
00:46:01,100 --> 00:46:03,800
for rescuing broken, but it's, 
yeah, I don't, it's not a broken

980
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:05,600
foot. 
It's a broken toe, but that's a 

981
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:06,800
mildly. 
It's fine. 

982
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,800
It's healing your toes. 
Not your foot. 

983
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:10,900
Cool. 
It's not you. 

984
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,200
Well, yeah, I'm just trying to 
differentiate it. 

985
00:46:13,300 --> 00:46:16,500
If my metatarsal was broken. 
I would have a be doing a very 

986
00:46:16,500 --> 00:46:18,800
different thing, but that's more
in the foot. 

987
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:23,800
So I really enjoyed it because 
it's yeah, it's just, it's 

988
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,600
really come a long way. 
And it's again, it's coming into

989
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:28,700
that more guidance, kind Dov 
idea. 

990
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:33,200
Others shoes that I've tried the
Inspire 19, which is coming out 

991
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,900
very soon, actually, probably by
the time this this video, or 

992
00:46:36,900 --> 00:46:38,900
this podcast comes out, it'll be
out. 

993
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,300
Is also another one. 
I've really enjoyed where I was 

994
00:46:41,300 --> 00:46:44,000
a little nervous because 
sometimes the really high drop 

995
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,200
and can be a problem in the last
version was super clunky, but 

996
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,000
the foam. 
It's lighter. 

997
00:46:49,100 --> 00:46:52,100
It transitions a lot better, 
it's really comfortable. 

998
00:46:52,100 --> 00:46:54,300
And again, didn't feel like I 
was getting forced in a certain 

999
00:46:54,300 --> 00:46:55,800
way. 
Because again, Mizuno typically 

1000
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,700
does this well. 
So the Inspire was a One that 

1001
00:46:58,700 --> 00:47:01,000
I've really enjoyed. 
It's really come a long way as a

1002
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,200
stability shoe, but most is 
tougher this year, haven't tried

1003
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:05,800
yet. 
But I'm drooling over because I 

1004
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,300
think this is actually the year 
where stability issues make a 

1005
00:47:08,300 --> 00:47:10,700
small come back. 
Were actually adding models, 

1006
00:47:11,100 --> 00:47:13,400
instead of getting rid of them. 
Because, as I mentioned earlier,

1007
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,600
stability, issues have been the 
number have been dropping and 

1008
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:18,600
now we're actually seeing a 
couple being added. 

1009
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,600
So, the ones that I'm really 
excited for, I'm not tested yet,

1010
00:47:21,900 --> 00:47:26,000
the Puma it's forever. 
Run Nitro where they're using 

1011
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:27,600
the concept of side walls of 
some foam. 

1012
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,900
Geometries I'm very excited to 
see what Puma does. 

1013
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:33,900
The other ones that I'm really 
excited for is that new balance 

1014
00:47:33,900 --> 00:47:36,200
Von go V60? 
The Bongo has been like this, 

1015
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,000
kind of feel like it's been this
Dark Horse where like, people 

1016
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:40,400
really have to pay as much 
attention to it. 

1017
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,500
When people tried, like I really
like this for some weird reason 

1018
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:48,200
on they are totally redoing that
shoe with all the concepts from 

1019
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,800
Guidance, with side walls, with 
all this, like The Wider 

1020
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,900
platform. 
So I'm very excited to see what 

1021
00:47:53,900 --> 00:47:57,300
they do with that. 
The Saucony Tempest to should be

1022
00:47:57,300 --> 00:47:59,000
coming out. 
I don't know what that's going 

1023
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,300
to look like, I don't know if 
it's an upper change, your soul 

1024
00:48:01,300 --> 00:48:03,100
change. 
Well, the other shoes are really

1025
00:48:03,100 --> 00:48:06,400
excited for is the inline one. 
So shoes, like, the New Balance,

1026
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,500
862 the Keanu, they are changing
very quickly. 

1027
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:11,700
So I don't know what the next 
versions of those look like, but

1028
00:48:11,700 --> 00:48:15,400
I am really excited to see what 
happens because the idea of 

1029
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,100
stability is definitely evolving
and I think it's evolving at a 

1030
00:48:18,108 --> 00:48:21,700
quicker rate as we start going, 
how do we make this work for 

1031
00:48:21,700 --> 00:48:25,100
more people and realize that 
stability isn't just for people 

1032
00:48:25,100 --> 00:48:27,300
who pronate? 
It's how do we keep people a 

1033
00:48:27,308 --> 00:48:28,200
little bit? 
Or centered. 

1034
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,400
And what does that even mean? 
So that's what I'm excited 

1035
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:32,700
about. 
Let's see where things go. 

1036
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:34,100
Anything that you're excited 
for. 

1037
00:48:35,100 --> 00:48:38,100
No, I don't get super excited 
about stability shoes. 

1038
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:42,300
No, just no, I'm excited. 
Just to just keep trying out. 

1039
00:48:42,300 --> 00:48:44,500
What what what comes around, but
right? 

1040
00:48:44,500 --> 00:48:48,000
Yeah, nothing, nothing super in 
particular regarding, you know, 

1041
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:49,500
stability category. 
She's that. 

1042
00:48:49,500 --> 00:48:52,200
I'm excited about but I know you
are and that's why we have 

1043
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,000
multiple people on the team 
because we have white interest. 

1044
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:59,200
So yes we are. 
Glad that everyone joined us for

1045
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,000
this episode. 
It was fun to kind of rehash. 

1046
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,100
Your thoughts. 
Matt on what stability? 

1047
00:49:04,100 --> 00:49:08,100
Quote-unquote stability means in
Footwear and talking about the 

1048
00:49:08,100 --> 00:49:10,200
types of questions that research
is asking. 

1049
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:13,700
And even just the running, 
researchers in the labs with 

1050
00:49:13,700 --> 00:49:16,800
research, we will never see, 
unfortunately. 

1051
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,200
But it makes sense. 
I get it, but it's nice to see 

1052
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,900
the change in direction of the 
questions and how materials are 

1053
00:49:22,900 --> 00:49:24,900
starting to shape these new 
shoes that make them more 

1054
00:49:24,900 --> 00:49:28,200
runnable and more enjoyable. 
And I think it will Be fun to 

1055
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:30,800
see what do I think? 
The Tempest opened up? 

1056
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,800
Probably a new wave of shoes 
from other companies. 

1057
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,100
I have this feeling that stuff. 
They may not have been the only 

1058
00:49:36,100 --> 00:49:38,000
ones working on a shoe like 
that. 

1059
00:49:38,100 --> 00:49:41,100
But I think that more companies 
are going to have offerings that

1060
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,700
are lighter weight with a more 
resilient and compliant foam. 

1061
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,000
That should be a lot of fun. 
But yes, this is fun to hear 

1062
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,900
your update. 
Matt and we hope to talk to you 

1063
00:49:50,900 --> 00:49:54,200
all soon and hear from you. 
You can always reach out to us 

1064
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,700
at darks, is running podcast at 
gmail.com, or follow us on. 

1065
00:49:57,700 --> 00:50:00,200
Instagram, Facebook, Twitter at 
doctors of running. 

1066
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:01,200
We'll see y'all next time.