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This episode of The Doctors are 
Running podcast is sponsored by 

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our friends at Running 
Warehouse. 

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Find reviews on all four Super 
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Running and have a 
runningwarehouse.com to shop 

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00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:50,670
today. 
Hello and welcome to the Doctors

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of Running podcast, where we, a 
group of doctors of physical 

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therapy, discuss the art and the
science of the stuff we're 

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putting on our feet. 
I'm Andrea Myers and I'm here 

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with Nathan Brown, and we've got
a really special guest with us 

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today, Ashley Matteo, who is an 
excellent journalist and editor 

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in the running world. 
She's here to talk to us about 

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all things. 
Journalism, writing, social 

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media, how she got into what 
she's currently doing. 

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So thank you, Ashley, so much 
for joining us and welcome. 

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Thank you for having me. 
I'm excited to chat with you 

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guys. 
Yeah. 

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Thank you for taking the time 
out of your busy day to join us.

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You're just telling us earlier 
that it's pretty hot out there 

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in Denver getting out in the 80 
degree weather this morning? 

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It's nothing like marathon 
training through the summer, 

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especially at altitude. 
Yeah, the best for your ego for 

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sure. 
Yeah, it really. 

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It's humbling. 
So I want to go ahead and 

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introduce Ashley and then have 
her give our listeners a little 

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bit of background on herself. 
So like I said, Ashley is an 

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awardwinning journalist and 
editor. 

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She currently works as a 
freelance editorial consultant. 

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She was previously the site 
director of Red Book and the 

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deputy digital editor editor at 
Shape. 

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Her writing has appeared in such
outlets as the Wall Street 

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Journal, Time Runner's World 
Women's Running, Men's Journal 

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Health, Women's Health, 
Bicycling and more, many of my 

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favorite publications to read 
about running and cycling. 

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She received her degree in 
journalism from Boston 

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University and she is also a 
certified running coach and 

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Ashley lives in Denver. 
So once again, welcome Ashley. 

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Could you tell our listeners a 
little bit more about both your 

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journalism background and your 
running background? 

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Of course, it's kind of funny to
me because. 

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I went into journalism and if 
you had told me one day I'd be 

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writing about running, I would 
have laughed in your face 

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because I didn't run. 
I thought running was an insane 

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thing to do and a form of 
exercise that I avoided at all 

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costs. 
I actually started in music 

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journalism and thought that I 
would be, you know, almost 

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famous going on tour and writing
for Rolling Stone. 

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And I was sort of on that path 
and it just wasn't as fulfilling

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as I hoped it would be. 
Honestly, it was kind of 

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exhausting. 
It's a lot of going to concerts,

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you know, being out until 4:00 
AM, it's very much a be seen 

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kind of industry. 
You know, you have to be at the 

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right parties and the right 
places. 

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And it just, I got tiring, like 
literally tiring. 

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And I ended up moving through a 
couple different publications 

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and getting to shape magazine 
where I was a deputy editor. 

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And a deputy editor means you 
kind of oversee all of the 

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sections, so you're not. 
You know, specifically beauty or

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fashion or Wellness or anything,
You're top editing all of it. 

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And obviously Shape is a fitness
magazine at its core, and the 

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fitness world just seemed so 
much happier. 

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People were just more positive. 
They were healthier, they were 

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more welcoming. 
It just had a better vibe. 

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And while I was working at 
Shape, I got invited to do a 

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half Ironman, which I deleted 
the e-mail because I was like, 

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that's insane. 
Who wants to do something like 

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that? 
I didn't run bike or swim at 

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that point. 
I was like, no thank you, But I 

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was also kind of at this 
crossroads of just doing 

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Boutique Fitness and, you know, 
classes that I wasn't really 

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finding a community. 
I didn't really feel drawn to 

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any particular type of class 
that I was doing. 

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And a coworker also got the 
invite and she said she was 

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going to do it. 
And I was like, wait, if you can

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do that, then I can do that. 
So we ended up doing 1/2 

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Ironman. 
So do it. 

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And yeah, we did it. 
I did not drown during the swim,

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which seemed like a strong 
possibility. 

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I thought cycling was going to 
be my favorite and the easiest 

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because it's something that I 
have done. 

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Not seriously, but I grew up 
bike riding. 

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My dad is a big cyclist. 
But then running is what stuck, 

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running is what felt the best 
and on many different levels, 

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and I just wanted to keep doing 
it after that race and here we 

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are. 
Well, big thanks to the person 

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who sent out the e-mail. 
Right. 

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Thank you, Iron Man, for 
inviting me to that. 

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Yeah, that's awesome. 
So before we get into the main 

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part of the episode, I want to 
ask our subjective question for 

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both our listeners and for you, 
Ashley. 

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So what are your favorite 
sources for running information?

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Where do you get your info? 
For your own personal running, 

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or even for the articles or the 
videos that you do? 

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I think it sort of depends on 
what I'm looking for. 

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I think if it's my own writing. 
I'm looking at all kinds of 

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sources, whether that's academia
or doctors associated with 

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medical institutions, hospitals,
whatever, social media. 

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I feel like that has become a 
huge platform for connecting 

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with experts as long as you vet 
them properly, which we can get 

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into. 
But in terms of running content 

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and reading about running, there
are still a lot of journalists 

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out there that are doing 
incredible work, a couple that I

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really like to follow. 
And read our Aaron Strout, 

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Amelia Benton, Sarah Lorge, 
Lorge Butler, Cindy Kuzma. 

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These are writers who've been 
doing this for a very long time.

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And they are so plugged in to 
the industry, and I feel like 

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the stories that they have 
access to and that they tell are

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really important. 
And so when I'm reading about 

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running, those are the people, a
few of the people that I kind of

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gravitate towards. 
But then when I'm looking for 

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sources outside of writers. 
I start with social media a lot 

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of the time. 
And it's funny with social media

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now even, you know, like you 
said, you can connect to a lot 

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of scholars that way as well. 
I think about like Rich Willy. 

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So he's kind of one of the 
bigger wigs in running research,

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and he puts some of his findings
up on their Instagram page 

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through some useful you know, he
doesn't post all the time. 

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He posts, you know, every once 
in a while with very thoughtful 

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posts. 
But you can reach out to him 

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that way, and you can also have 
access to some of the data that 

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they're getting in their lab. 
And so you can get the gamut 

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now. 
And for from this our side of 

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things too, it's nice to see 
researchers become a little bit 

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more accessible as well to the 
community. 

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Because if we silo ourselves too
much, sometimes you don't get 

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enough cross talk that can make 
either the research more 

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tangible or vice versa and 
actually having to influence 

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what's going on in the real 
world. 

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So yeah, it's funny how social 
media is. 

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There are the positives and the 
negatives to social media, but 

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when you wield incorrectly, 
there's a lot of power there. 

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Yeah, I think it's sort of 
equalized access to a lot of 

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people. 
I used to have to go through 

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publicist every time that I 
wanted. 

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To speak with an expert, whether
it was somebody affiliated with 

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the hospital or university or a 
brand, if it was an athlete, I 

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had to go through their agent or
their PR. 

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Now I can DM an athlete. 
It's not guaranteed that they're

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going to respond, but some of 
them, I have enough of a 

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relationship where if I'm like, 
hey, I'm working on a story like

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this, would love to include your
thoughts. 

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They will respond. 
And that's incredible. 

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It just cuts out a whole layer 
of red tape that can make a 

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story drag on. 
You know, for weeks and all of a

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sudden you, just like you, have 
access to that person and you 

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can. 
Your content is much more 

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timely, I think, that way. 
Yeah, I totally agree. 

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It's social media has opened up 
the world to the rest of the 

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world. 
And I think Nathan's comment 

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about researchers being online. 
I love it because it's hard. 

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I think it just gives another 
way for people to access the 

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information that these 
researchers are working on, and 

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in a different way than like 
doing a online scholarly search.

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I think it brings their research
to people who maybe wouldn't 

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have otherwise found their the 
articles that they've written. 

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So it benefits both the 
researcher because. 

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It can help them get more 
funding, help them find 

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subjects, etc, But it also helps
everyday people because it's 

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bringing accurate information to
people who maybe otherwise 

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wouldn't have found those 
scholarly articles. 

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I've even seen on Twitter 
researchers responding directly 

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to everyday people who are 
asking questions about their own

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training. 
OK, you shared this study, but 

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this is the type of runner I am 
or this is the type of running 

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that I'm doing right now. 
Is this right? 

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Is this wrong? 
Should I be changing something? 

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And obviously a researcher 
doesn't have the time to answer 

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every single question, but I 
think it's pretty cool that 

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anybody can go ask these experts
how to apply that expertise in 

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real life. 
It is, yeah. 

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Something like that would have 
been unthinkable even 15 years 

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ago, right? 
Yeah. 

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All right. 
So let's move on to the main 

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part of our episode today. 
So first, we just want to talk 

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to you a little more about being
a writer. 

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And I just love the story about 
how you got into running. 

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Because really it was something 
you didn't want to do at all, 

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and it ended up kind of changing
your career and your life, 

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right? 
So we want to talk to you more 

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about content creation. 
So once you decided that you 

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loved running and that's what 
you wanted to write about, how 

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did you get into writing about 
running? 

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And you were at a publication 
that already made sense for you 

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to write about running. 
So did you just like, volunteer 

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to be the running journalist or 
how did that work? 

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Well, it didn't even need a 
title like that, you know. 

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I just started pitching ideas 
that. 

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Revolved around my questions 
about running. 

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You know, why is it so much 
harder to run in the heat? 

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Or why am I not recovering as 
quickly as it seems other people

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are? 
Or what is a he'll workout? 

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You know, like whatever those 
very basic questions were, you 

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know, back in 2015, we didn't 
have that content at that point.

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And so I just started writing 
that content, and I was also 

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writing a ton of other stuff. 
In the in the health and 

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Wellness sphere, but it kind of 
a well-rounded approach to 

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fitness. 
So it wasn't just 100% running. 

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And then I left shape to go to 
Redbook where it was not a 

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health and Wellness magazine and
it was great. 

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I wanted that director title. 
I wanted that managerial 

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experience, but I did not. 
I missed writing about running. 

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Like it just I wrote a little 
bit about it. 

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I was able to freelance for some
other publications within the 

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same umbrella company about 
running, but at that point I was

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getting more and more into the 
sport myself and. 

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I wanted a stronger outlet or 
more outlets where I could 

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actually talk about that as 
opposed to working for one 

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publication. 
And so then in 2017, I decided 

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to go freelance, and that was 
when I made the full commitment 

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to, again, I don't just write 
about running, but really, 

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really focusing on running and 
fitness and health. 

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And sometimes there's some 
travel stuff in there, sometimes

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there's some other random stuff.
But I would say more than 75% of

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what I do is running and 
fitness. 

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And what was that transition 
like for you're going from 

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00:12:53,450 --> 00:12:56,810
working in a managerial role at 
Redbook to freelance? 

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00:12:56,810 --> 00:13:00,090
I'm sure that must have been 
quite a not just culture shock, 

230
00:13:00,130 --> 00:13:04,850
but like life rhythm shock. 
It actually wasn't so much. 

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00:13:04,930 --> 00:13:09,010
I had been freelance once before
when I had been laid off, which 

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is a rite of passage in the 
media industry at this point. 

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And that time was really scary 
because I didn't have any. 

234
00:13:18,220 --> 00:13:21,220
Safety net set up. 
I didn't know how to freelance. 

235
00:13:21,220 --> 00:13:22,940
I didn't have those contacts 
yet. 

236
00:13:23,500 --> 00:13:25,460
And so there were a couple 
months of just fear. 

237
00:13:25,580 --> 00:13:30,020
You know, I I would take any 
assignment, any, any kind of 

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00:13:30,020 --> 00:13:32,900
work, whether it was what I 
wanted to write about or not, as

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00:13:32,900 --> 00:13:35,980
long as I was getting a paycheck
because I was so afraid, You 

240
00:13:35,980 --> 00:13:37,820
know, how am I going to pay my 
rent in New York? 

241
00:13:39,020 --> 00:13:41,540
I was looking for a full time 
job because I didn't know how to

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00:13:41,540 --> 00:13:45,180
freelance and didn't want to be 
doing it from this place of 

243
00:13:45,180 --> 00:13:49,560
fear. 
And I eventually got a full time

244
00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:52,320
freelance job which basically 
means you are working full time 

245
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:57,800
but not getting benefits. 
Love the media industry and it 

246
00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,560
was nice because I could 
freelance while I was at that 

247
00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:01,560
job. 
So. 

248
00:14:02,420 --> 00:14:04,820
Sure. 
I was doing that nine to five 

249
00:14:04,820 --> 00:14:09,060
job, but also writing for 
self.com at the time. 

250
00:14:09,060 --> 00:14:11,460
And I was doing a certain number
of blogs per day, getting a 

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00:14:11,460 --> 00:14:14,500
certain rate per day, and that 
helped me stockpile some money. 

252
00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:18,020
And after I think it was like 8 
months I was at that job, I 

253
00:14:18,020 --> 00:14:22,600
decided that I wanted. 
To be freelance and go to Europe

254
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,680
for six weeks and freelance from
Europe and do that whole thing. 

255
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:30,840
So I did, and that was a lot 
less scary because I had had 

256
00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,320
that safety net set up and I I 
knew what I needed to make in 

257
00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:38,280
order to pay my bills and I had 
some connections and whatnot. 

258
00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:42,280
So when I left Redbook that 
second time, that was my choice.

259
00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:46,440
And so, before I officially had 
my last day, I was able to put 

260
00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:50,680
some, you know? 
Some plans in motion for 

261
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,240
assignments. 
I had my first assignment for 

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00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,720
Runners World before officially 
leaving my job. 

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00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:00,400
So, you know, that was when 
print paid a little better and 

264
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,880
you could have you know one or 
two assignments and feel like 

265
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:07,480
you were you're okay. 
But yeah, it it felt a lot 

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better to make that transition 
when it was my choice versus 

267
00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,130
when I was at the whims of. 
Corporation. 

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00:15:14,130 --> 00:15:16,810
And so it actually felt 
wonderful. 

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00:15:16,850 --> 00:15:23,050
I was very excited to be in what
I thought was total creative 

270
00:15:23,050 --> 00:15:26,890
control of my career. 
It's not quite that way when 

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00:15:26,890 --> 00:15:29,610
you're a freelancer because 
obviously it depends on getting,

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00:15:29,690 --> 00:15:32,050
you know, your career, depends 
on getting assignments approved 

273
00:15:32,090 --> 00:15:36,130
and actually, you know, getting 
paid to do those things. 

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00:15:36,490 --> 00:15:41,730
But being able to work on my own
timeline, pitch the ideas that I

275
00:15:41,730 --> 00:15:44,310
wanted to write. 
Have the flexibility in my 

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00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:46,390
schedule that I wanted. 
I. 

277
00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:48,270
It would be hard for me to give 
that up now. 

278
00:15:49,070 --> 00:15:51,350
It's not. 
Don't get me wrong, it is a 

279
00:15:51,350 --> 00:15:54,110
hustle like freelancing is not 
for the faint of heart. 

280
00:15:54,110 --> 00:15:55,630
You need to have really thick 
skin. 

281
00:15:56,390 --> 00:15:59,870
There's a lot of rejection. 
It is a everchanging industry. 

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00:16:00,310 --> 00:16:05,750
But I don't think there's a lot 
more security in fulltime media 

283
00:16:05,750 --> 00:16:09,470
jobs at the moment. 
And so being a freelancer and 

284
00:16:09,470 --> 00:16:12,380
having this. 
Wealth of experience over the 

285
00:16:12,380 --> 00:16:14,220
past. 
I don't know what is it like 7 

286
00:16:14,220 --> 00:16:18,060
years at this point. 
It would be hard to give that up

287
00:16:18,060 --> 00:16:21,340
now, and I'm sure things have 
changed from when you started to

288
00:16:21,340 --> 00:16:22,900
now. 
But when it comes to being a 

289
00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:26,540
freelancer and getting 
assignments, does it look like 

290
00:16:26,540 --> 00:16:28,420
you reaching out and pitching 
ideas? 

291
00:16:28,420 --> 00:16:30,340
Does it look like them reaching 
out to you? 

292
00:16:30,500 --> 00:16:33,100
Has that changed over time? 
What does that connection point 

293
00:16:33,220 --> 00:16:36,340
look like? 
It's a little bit of both and 

294
00:16:36,340 --> 00:16:38,900
that the ratio of that can 
change month to month. 

295
00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:40,500
So there are some months where 
I'm. 

296
00:16:41,250 --> 00:16:44,730
Pitching a ton. 
And any assignments I'm getting 

297
00:16:44,730 --> 00:16:47,170
are coming from my own ideas. 
And then there are other months 

298
00:16:47,170 --> 00:16:49,850
where editors are looking for 
specific stories and they're 

299
00:16:49,850 --> 00:16:52,170
coming to me asking me to write 
certain things. 

300
00:16:52,770 --> 00:16:54,930
I like that. 
I like when there's a good mix, 

301
00:16:54,930 --> 00:16:58,530
because coming up with ideas on 
your own all the time, it's 

302
00:16:58,530 --> 00:17:01,050
really hard, especially with 
other things going on in the 

303
00:17:01,050 --> 00:17:03,330
world. 
I mean, the past three years 

304
00:17:03,330 --> 00:17:06,930
have been brutal. 
I think for creative industries 

305
00:17:06,970 --> 00:17:09,930
it's very hard to use your 
brain. 

306
00:17:10,859 --> 00:17:13,780
In a creative way, 100% of the 
time. 

307
00:17:14,380 --> 00:17:17,020
And your livelihood relies on 
that, you know? 

308
00:17:17,300 --> 00:17:20,700
It's a lot of pressure. 
And sometimes I don't have good 

309
00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:24,060
ideas, sometimes the ideas just 
aren't coming, and then 

310
00:17:24,060 --> 00:17:28,700
sometimes I have all the ideas 
and I can't place them or 

311
00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:33,020
whatever. 
I think what has changed a lot 

312
00:17:33,060 --> 00:17:37,120
in the past. 
Three to five years is what 

313
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,880
publications are looking for, 
and so that's also something you

314
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:42,880
always have to be adjusting for 
as a freelancer. 

315
00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:46,800
As much as I would love to write
the kind of stories that I want 

316
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:51,080
to write, all of the time trend 
pieces, service pieces. 

317
00:17:51,810 --> 00:17:53,930
Human interest pieces. 
That's just not what 

318
00:17:54,250 --> 00:17:56,010
publications are looking for all
the time. 

319
00:17:56,010 --> 00:18:00,090
Now, unfortunately, you know, 
there was a time when every 

320
00:18:00,090 --> 00:18:02,890
magazine pivoted to video and 
there was a time when every 

321
00:18:02,890 --> 00:18:06,010
magazine relied on Facebook for 
their, you know, their 

322
00:18:06,010 --> 00:18:09,210
engagement strategy. 
Now there's a ton of ecom and 

323
00:18:09,250 --> 00:18:14,490
SEO is a huge priority. 
So my workload sort of depends 

324
00:18:14,490 --> 00:18:18,210
on what publications are looking
for and what needs they have 

325
00:18:18,290 --> 00:18:20,330
month to month, month to month 
changes. 

326
00:18:21,460 --> 00:18:25,980
It's great interested in hearing
how what you write about has 

327
00:18:25,980 --> 00:18:30,900
changed, like let's say over the
past like 5 to 10 years or well,

328
00:18:30,900 --> 00:18:34,780
when you started writing about 
running 2015 ish, right? 

329
00:18:35,180 --> 00:18:39,860
So what? 
When editors contact you and ask

330
00:18:39,860 --> 00:18:43,460
you to write a story, has the 
focus of those. 

331
00:18:44,350 --> 00:18:48,190
Articles changed. 
What are you seeing different 

332
00:18:48,190 --> 00:18:54,750
just in 2023 compared to 2018? 
In 2023, I would say the main 

333
00:18:54,750 --> 00:18:57,670
focus of almost every 
publication, whether it's a 

334
00:18:57,670 --> 00:19:03,830
running publication or a 
publication that is broader, 

335
00:19:04,710 --> 00:19:06,710
like somewhere like CNN for 
example. 

336
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,440
It's ecom. 
Ecom is driving so much of 

337
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,400
content these days and there is 
nothing wrong with that at all. 

338
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,360
I love testing gear and 
reviewing gear and writing those

339
00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:20,360
roundups. 
What I miss is the outlets that 

340
00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:26,560
used to publish bigger service 
packages or trend stories. 

341
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,440
I'll tell you a sad example of 
that was I once wrote. 

342
00:19:31,930 --> 00:19:34,010
Do you remember? 
I forget what year I said it was

343
00:19:34,010 --> 00:19:35,690
2022. 
It might have just been last 

344
00:19:35,690 --> 00:19:38,770
year when every brand was 
putting out a women's specific 

345
00:19:38,770 --> 00:19:42,410
running shoe. 
I had a beautiful package put 

346
00:19:42,410 --> 00:19:47,490
together for women's running the
print magazine and it was just 

347
00:19:47,490 --> 00:19:49,290
looking at the trend. 
Why is this happening now? 

348
00:19:49,290 --> 00:19:51,410
Obviously women have been 
running for years. 

349
00:19:51,410 --> 00:19:52,930
Why are we finally paying 
attention to them? 

350
00:19:52,930 --> 00:19:56,650
What has prompted these brands 
to finally start investing money

351
00:19:56,650 --> 00:19:59,970
in research labs to study what 
women need versus what men need?

352
00:20:01,310 --> 00:20:04,270
And then what are these shoes? 
How are they different from a 

353
00:20:04,270 --> 00:20:07,830
unisex shoe or a male shoe? 
And it was a really cool story, 

354
00:20:07,830 --> 00:20:11,790
just like a moment in time had a
had a great package laid out for

355
00:20:11,790 --> 00:20:14,030
print, and then the print 
magazine folded. 

356
00:20:15,790 --> 00:20:18,630
So it lives online. 
The story, I mean, the story is 

357
00:20:18,630 --> 00:20:20,110
still a good story. 
I'm still really proud. 

358
00:20:20,150 --> 00:20:22,790
It's still there. 
It still was published 

359
00:20:22,830 --> 00:20:27,630
obviously, But there is 
something different, you know, 

360
00:20:27,670 --> 00:20:30,990
between a print magazine package
when you're flipping through an 

361
00:20:30,990 --> 00:20:34,830
8 page story or something like 
that, versus scrolling through a

362
00:20:34,830 --> 00:20:37,510
story of that length online. 
It's a lot easier I think to 

363
00:20:37,550 --> 00:20:40,550
lose interest online and click 
over to something else and 

364
00:20:40,550 --> 00:20:44,510
whatnot. 
A similar type of package like 

365
00:20:44,510 --> 00:20:47,750
that would be something I did a 
long time ago for actually. 

366
00:20:47,750 --> 00:20:50,550
This was my first freelance 
story for Runner's World about 

367
00:20:50,550 --> 00:20:55,470
symmetry and why you will never 
be a symmetrical runner and how 

368
00:20:55,470 --> 00:20:58,870
to address imbalances, how they 
can show up in your running, why

369
00:20:58,870 --> 00:21:00,750
strength training is important, 
something like that. 

370
00:21:00,750 --> 00:21:05,670
And you have, I think it was, 
let's say, 8 pages, but you have

371
00:21:05,670 --> 00:21:09,390
the meat of the story, which is 
the copy, you know, explaining 

372
00:21:09,870 --> 00:21:12,870
this thought. 
And then there was a section on 

373
00:21:12,870 --> 00:21:15,550
strength training moves, and 
then there was a section on, 

374
00:21:15,550 --> 00:21:18,070
like tests you can do to 
discover imbalances. 

375
00:21:18,550 --> 00:21:20,790
And again, it just like that 
wouldn't translate quite the 

376
00:21:20,790 --> 00:21:26,580
same way online. 
And so I miss publications that 

377
00:21:26,580 --> 00:21:30,260
have the space for those kind of
stories because I see so many 

378
00:21:30,260 --> 00:21:33,540
different trends and it's much 
harder to place those trend 

379
00:21:33,540 --> 00:21:35,340
stories these days in my 
opinion. 

380
00:21:35,420 --> 00:21:37,700
That may not be true for every 
journalist out there, but that's

381
00:21:37,700 --> 00:21:40,260
what I've found over the past 
couple years. 

382
00:21:40,380 --> 00:21:43,180
It's become a lot harder to get 
those sort, those sort of 

383
00:21:43,180 --> 00:21:45,940
stories assigned. 
Are there any publications that 

384
00:21:45,940 --> 00:21:48,220
are still doing those kind of 
stories? 

385
00:21:48,460 --> 00:21:50,900
That's a great question. 
If there are, like hit me up, I 

386
00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:55,300
would love that. 
Yeah. 

387
00:21:55,420 --> 00:21:57,900
Yeah, I'm sure there are. 
There obviously are. 

388
00:21:57,940 --> 00:22:01,460
A great piece, for example, was,
I don't know if you guys read 

389
00:22:01,460 --> 00:22:04,900
the Atlantic story about Hoka 
becoming like the millennial 

390
00:22:04,900 --> 00:22:07,740
shoe. 
That's a great story. 

391
00:22:07,940 --> 00:22:11,340
Like not running specific, 
obviously, But how this, this 

392
00:22:11,340 --> 00:22:15,300
particular sneaker brand became 
something that used to be very 

393
00:22:15,300 --> 00:22:19,020
niche and now you can see it 
like, I have friends who wear 

394
00:22:19,020 --> 00:22:22,100
them in a fashion way, like out 
at night, like, what are you 

395
00:22:22,140 --> 00:22:23,980
doing? 
That's my marathon shoe. 

396
00:22:25,940 --> 00:22:27,900
So, I mean, people are 
definitely still writing these 

397
00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:29,820
stories, don't get me wrong, 
They're still out there. 

398
00:22:29,900 --> 00:22:33,220
I just think it's a lot harder 
to place them because the real 

399
00:22:33,220 --> 00:22:38,000
estate and the budgets don't 
support as many of those 

400
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:42,040
stories. 
You know something we do a lot 

401
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:47,640
at Dor is we're combining our 
work as PTS with content 

402
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,320
creation in Dor. 
So you're a certified running 

403
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,320
coach and have been for a number
of years. 

404
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,720
How did getting certified change
how you write, if any? 

405
00:22:58,120 --> 00:23:01,200
And how did it inform what you 
wrote about? 

406
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,060
Well, I originally got certified
to inform my writing. 

407
00:23:05,180 --> 00:23:09,060
That was the only goal. 
I didn't think that I should 

408
00:23:09,060 --> 00:23:11,980
work with runners or could work 
with runners because what I knew

409
00:23:11,980 --> 00:23:16,300
of of coaching at that point was
people who, you know, grew up as

410
00:23:16,300 --> 00:23:17,900
runners. 
They were collegiate runners, 

411
00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:22,020
high school runners, whatever it
was, they've been doing this for

412
00:23:22,020 --> 00:23:23,860
years. 
Or they had exercise science 

413
00:23:23,860 --> 00:23:26,500
backgrounds. 
You know, they studied this in 

414
00:23:26,500 --> 00:23:27,700
school, in grad school, 
whatever. 

415
00:23:27,700 --> 00:23:29,900
And so I was like, I'm just 
doing this so that I can be a 

416
00:23:29,900 --> 00:23:32,870
better writer. 
And I do think it helped. 

417
00:23:32,870 --> 00:23:37,470
It made it made it a lot easier,
I think, to cover certain topics

418
00:23:37,470 --> 00:23:41,870
without having to find someone 
to cite for every little fact. 

419
00:23:41,870 --> 00:23:44,670
You know, you should run. 
You're easy runs easy, says so. 

420
00:23:44,670 --> 00:23:48,510
And so now I can just say that 
because I was starting to know 

421
00:23:48,510 --> 00:23:51,910
all of these things, but I still
felt like as a journalist, I had

422
00:23:51,910 --> 00:23:54,670
to make sure I was citing an 
expert so that the reader would 

423
00:23:54,670 --> 00:23:57,910
understand that this is 
legitimate knowledge, not 

424
00:23:57,910 --> 00:23:59,910
something that I'm just saying 
because I write for Runner's 

425
00:23:59,910 --> 00:24:02,890
World or whatever it is. 
So that was sort of how it 

426
00:24:02,890 --> 00:24:07,050
started. 
And I do think it made my 

427
00:24:07,170 --> 00:24:11,370
writing better because it made 
me more interested in the 

428
00:24:11,370 --> 00:24:14,010
science behind running instead 
of it just being something that 

429
00:24:14,010 --> 00:24:17,210
I did that made me feel good. 
I started to understand why it 

430
00:24:17,210 --> 00:24:20,170
made me feel good, why I was 
getting better at it, why I 

431
00:24:20,170 --> 00:24:24,450
wasn't getting better at it. 
And that also inspired new story

432
00:24:24,450 --> 00:24:27,930
ideas. 
But I also just I When did I get

433
00:24:27,930 --> 00:24:33,430
certified? 
I first got certified in 2019, 

434
00:24:33,510 --> 00:24:39,430
right before moving out to 
Colorado, and I just wanted to 

435
00:24:39,430 --> 00:24:43,150
be as immersed in the running 
world as possible after I got 

436
00:24:43,150 --> 00:24:46,390
here. 
It was such a strong community, 

437
00:24:46,590 --> 00:24:52,200
and I really loved feeling like 
I belonged to that community. 

438
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,040
And so I continued writing about
running. 

439
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:57,560
I continued learning about 
running. 

440
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,880
I got a second certification, 
and after I got that second 

441
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:02,360
certification, I was like, could
I do this? 

442
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,400
Could I work with real runners? 
Is my knowledge enough? 

443
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:11,360
And I spoke with a coach based 
in Boulder, a strength coach, 

444
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:16,150
and he invited me to team up 
with him to be a running coach 

445
00:25:16,270 --> 00:25:18,470
through his gym. 
And I was like, well, me, like, 

446
00:25:18,470 --> 00:25:19,870
why would you want to work with 
me? 

447
00:25:19,870 --> 00:25:22,710
Like, am I legit enough? 
Total imposter syndrome. 

448
00:25:22,990 --> 00:25:24,310
And he was like, what are you 
talking about? 

449
00:25:24,310 --> 00:25:26,590
Like you've been doing this for 
almost 10 years. 

450
00:25:26,590 --> 00:25:29,910
Like, not only do you have your 
certifications, but also you've 

451
00:25:29,910 --> 00:25:32,310
been interviewing athletes and 
experts, and you have that 

452
00:25:32,310 --> 00:25:34,670
knowledge to apply to people as 
well. 

453
00:25:34,670 --> 00:25:39,720
And I was like I do, that's 
that's a very good point. 

454
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:44,360
And so I started with him and 
have just sort of grown it from 

455
00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:46,560
there. 
And it's certainly it's not my 

456
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,920
not making a living as a coach, 
but that was never really the 

457
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:51,560
goal. 
I don't want to be a full time 

458
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,720
coach. 
I want to work with, you know, a

459
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:58,560
handful of people who have goals
but also want to have fun with 

460
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:03,720
running and help them, you know,
get the most out of it that they

461
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,690
can. 
Nathan and I are both parttime 

462
00:26:06,690 --> 00:26:10,370
coaches as well. 
And so I I think your story 

463
00:26:10,370 --> 00:26:13,410
about that strength coach, you 
know, telling you all of the 

464
00:26:13,410 --> 00:26:16,170
great attributes about yourself 
that make you qualified as a 

465
00:26:16,170 --> 00:26:17,730
great coach is such a great 
story. 

466
00:26:17,730 --> 00:26:21,770
Because sometimes we just need 
somebody else to tell us 

467
00:26:21,970 --> 00:26:24,850
everything we already know. 
And then it's like, wow. 

468
00:26:25,830 --> 00:26:28,590
Yeah, I can do this. 
I do sound like a good coach. 

469
00:26:29,030 --> 00:26:31,470
Yeah. 
When I got into coaching, I had 

470
00:26:31,470 --> 00:26:36,030
no intention of coaching ever. 
And I was injured and one of my 

471
00:26:36,030 --> 00:26:38,950
friends asked me to coach her 
and I was like, what do you want

472
00:26:38,950 --> 00:26:40,550
me to coach you for? 
I'm not a coach. 

473
00:26:40,550 --> 00:26:42,670
I wouldn't be a good coach. 
And you know, same thing. 

474
00:26:42,670 --> 00:26:44,750
She told me why I would be a 
good coach for her. 

475
00:26:44,750 --> 00:26:50,630
And it's like, well, maybe I 
will be a, you know, I started 

476
00:26:50,630 --> 00:26:53,580
with her and it's. 
Coaching is so rewarding. 

477
00:26:53,580 --> 00:26:57,260
Like, it's one thing to work 
hard for yourself, but then to 

478
00:26:57,260 --> 00:26:59,260
help somebody else achieve their
goals. 

479
00:26:59,300 --> 00:27:02,460
I find to be even more 
fulfilling than like my own 

480
00:27:02,460 --> 00:27:06,220
athletic pursuit. 
And like, I could never give up 

481
00:27:06,220 --> 00:27:08,220
coaching. 
Even if I was only coaching one 

482
00:27:08,220 --> 00:27:11,420
person, I don't think I would 
ever give it up because of just 

483
00:27:11,420 --> 00:27:14,900
how fulfilling it is to help 
somebody in that manner. 

484
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,400
With that longevity, yeah, the 
longevity of that connection is 

485
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,360
is pretty special and walking 
through a lot of ups and downs 

486
00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:26,440
with what the coaching journey 
and the running journey is, 

487
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,360
because everybody's going to 
have those ups and downs, 

488
00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:30,200
whether they're physical or 
mental or whatever. 

489
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,480
It is a different type of 
relationship and the shift from 

490
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,770
that. 
Coming from, like, being a 

491
00:27:35,770 --> 00:27:37,810
physical therapist into some 
coaching realm. 

492
00:27:38,050 --> 00:27:39,410
Even you, Andrea, you're the 
one. 

493
00:27:39,490 --> 00:27:45,010
You told me that I could do it. 
I was like, oh okay, do either 

494
00:27:45,010 --> 00:27:46,930
of you watch Survivor? 
No. 

495
00:27:47,770 --> 00:27:49,450
No Survivor. 
Sorry. 

496
00:27:49,690 --> 00:27:52,930
This feels this feels like so at
the end there's something called

497
00:27:52,930 --> 00:27:55,250
the final Tribal council where 
they each have to make their 

498
00:27:55,250 --> 00:27:59,250
case as to why they should win. 
And there's inevitably, every 

499
00:27:59,250 --> 00:28:01,610
couple seasons, there's someone 
who is clearly like. 

500
00:28:02,340 --> 00:28:05,500
Has A has a clear reason why 
they should win, but they don't 

501
00:28:05,500 --> 00:28:08,180
see it and it's not till the 
show's over. 

502
00:28:08,180 --> 00:28:11,860
And then everybody from, like, 
the Survivor nation, like, tells

503
00:28:11,860 --> 00:28:13,620
them This is why you should have
won. 

504
00:28:13,620 --> 00:28:16,100
They're like, oh man, if I could
go back, I probably could have 

505
00:28:16,100 --> 00:28:18,820
vouched for myself as to why I 
should be the sole Survivor. 

506
00:28:18,900 --> 00:28:22,460
That's all of our experiences. 
Yeah, a lot of impostor syndrome

507
00:28:22,460 --> 00:28:24,700
for everybody. 
Well, I also think, like, 

508
00:28:24,740 --> 00:28:30,820
running is so mental that it's 
so helpful to have somebody not 

509
00:28:30,820 --> 00:28:35,010
in your head telling you that 
you can do these things that you

510
00:28:35,010 --> 00:28:38,330
might not believe you can do. 
And I think I feel like Steve 

511
00:28:38,330 --> 00:28:40,130
Magnus has posted about this a 
lot. 

512
00:28:40,130 --> 00:28:44,530
But anybody can download a plan 
from the Internet or cobble 

513
00:28:44,530 --> 00:28:46,930
together a training plan and 
like it'll get them most of the 

514
00:28:46,930 --> 00:28:51,290
way there for sure. 
It's not rocket science, but so 

515
00:28:51,290 --> 00:28:56,470
much of what having a coach does
for you is to help you believe 

516
00:28:56,470 --> 00:28:57,870
in yourself. 
Like, I think of it almost as 

517
00:28:57,870 --> 00:29:00,950
like a therapist rule sometimes.
I'm not a therapist by any 

518
00:29:00,950 --> 00:29:05,150
means, and I don't think I am, 
but I do think having somebody 

519
00:29:05,150 --> 00:29:10,670
to voice your fears or your 
insecurities to or voice your 

520
00:29:10,670 --> 00:29:13,430
big goals to and say this is 
something I really want to do, 

521
00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:16,350
but I'm scared of how I'll get 
there. 

522
00:29:17,070 --> 00:29:21,520
Just sharing that with somebody 
makes it more likely, I think, 

523
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,760
and makes you more empowered to 
go after whatever it is. 

524
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,560
I mean, so I don't coach myself.
I could never coach myself. 

525
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,320
I wouldn't like, I would do 
nothing. 

526
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,080
I have a coach and he prescribes
workouts and I'm like, this is 

527
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,000
psychotic. 
There's no way I can do this. 

528
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,360
And then I do it and I'm like, 
oh, you are right. 

529
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,900
He's like, I know. 
I would. 

530
00:29:42,980 --> 00:29:44,900
I think I agree with your 
Ashley. 

531
00:29:45,020 --> 00:29:48,260
So much of coaching is not like 
the writing of the training plan

532
00:29:48,260 --> 00:29:51,540
because yeah, anyone could go 
online and get a generic 

533
00:29:51,540 --> 00:29:55,060
training plan and you know, 
probably not come out of that 

534
00:29:55,060 --> 00:29:59,260
completely unscathed, but you 
know get decently fit. 

535
00:29:59,620 --> 00:30:02,460
But so much of it is helping 
people deal with. 

536
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,880
Like balancing training with 
their life or self doubt, or 

537
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,800
knowing that when you get to 
number six of eight, eight 

538
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,640
hundreds on the track, how 
you're going to feel and it's 

539
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,440
normal to feel that way. 
Like that's what that's where 

540
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,040
coaching makes the difference in
someone's life. 

541
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:27,200
Yeah, being that voice of not 
just a reason, but voice of. 

542
00:30:27,610 --> 00:30:30,650
I've been there. 
I know how you're gonna feel. 

543
00:30:30,890 --> 00:30:33,570
It's OK to feel this way. 
And you'll get through it. 

544
00:30:33,570 --> 00:30:35,210
And here's how you can get 
through it. 

545
00:30:35,650 --> 00:30:40,210
Yeah, even when you know, I mean
I've run 13 marathons at this 

546
00:30:40,210 --> 00:30:43,170
point I know exactly what a 
marathon is gonna feel like. 

547
00:30:43,410 --> 00:30:46,530
I still want that pre race call 
where I talk it through with my 

548
00:30:46,530 --> 00:30:50,970
coach and you know can say all 
the dumb things that I know are 

549
00:30:50,970 --> 00:30:56,330
not gonna happen. 
Like I remember when New York in

550
00:30:56,330 --> 00:30:59,690
2021 was a month after Chicago 
and I just remember sitting on 

551
00:30:59,690 --> 00:31:02,050
Staten Island being like what if
I forget how to run? 

552
00:31:02,850 --> 00:31:06,810
Like what if I just forget how 
to do it and like I'd like talk 

553
00:31:06,810 --> 00:31:09,570
myself down off this ledge of 
like of course you know how to 

554
00:31:09,570 --> 00:31:11,250
run. 
Like you just ran a marathon 4 

555
00:31:11,250 --> 00:31:12,730
weeks ago. 
You will be fine, just start 

556
00:31:12,730 --> 00:31:15,490
moving. 
But that's kind of what I think 

557
00:31:15,570 --> 00:31:19,610
a coach is there to help you do.
Talk yourself off those ledges 

558
00:31:19,610 --> 00:31:22,330
when all of the noise gets in 
the way. 

559
00:31:23,410 --> 00:31:26,980
They're the ones who can be 
like, OK, I hear you and I get 

560
00:31:26,980 --> 00:31:31,220
it, but let's bring this back to
reality, totally. 

561
00:31:31,900 --> 00:31:34,020
And you did not forget how to 
run. 

562
00:31:34,060 --> 00:31:36,500
I did not. 
I only did not forget how to 

563
00:31:36,500 --> 00:31:37,500
run. 
I Pr'd. 

564
00:31:37,580 --> 00:31:40,540
So look at that. 
It went great. 

565
00:31:45,060 --> 00:31:48,580
That's awesome. 
I think this conversation kind 

566
00:31:48,580 --> 00:31:50,980
of dovetails nicely into the 
next section. 

567
00:31:51,470 --> 00:31:54,550
To talk about social media and 
the first question I want to ask

568
00:31:54,550 --> 00:31:58,030
you, and I think talking about 
how you became a coach to better

569
00:31:58,030 --> 00:32:01,790
inform your writing, this is the
best time to bring this up. 

570
00:32:02,070 --> 00:32:06,590
So there are a ton of 
influencers out there, sites 

571
00:32:06,590 --> 00:32:09,230
that give out advice about 
running training. 

572
00:32:09,750 --> 00:32:13,350
You can have Steve Magnus at one
point in your feed and then you 

573
00:32:13,350 --> 00:32:19,470
can have, you know, Marathon 
Girl 052978 and they're both 

574
00:32:19,470 --> 00:32:21,200
giving out. 
Running advice. 

575
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,560
And I don't know if that second 
one is a real account. 

576
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,320
So if it is, I'm not actually 
talking about a real person. 

577
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:32,040
They're just a disclaimer. 
So how can our listeners know 

578
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,360
who is a good source of 
information, if they're 

579
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,520
scrolling Instagram or Facebook 
or Twitter or whatever, and 

580
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,520
versus someone who's maybe just 
giving, like their own personal 

581
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,560
opinion or personal experience? 
How it doesn't? 

582
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,840
Could you give our listeners a 
few tips on how they might 

583
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,840
differentiate between accounts 
like that? 

584
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:59,880
Yeah, I think both kinds of 
accounts have value, but I think

585
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:04,840
you have to look at them from a 
perspective of are you looking 

586
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,200
to be inspired or or are you 
looking to be educated? 

587
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:14,200
And if you're looking to be 
educated, it's very important to

588
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,360
vet the type of account that 
you're consuming content from. 

589
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:23,040
I think if you are going to take
advice from an Instagram 

590
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,880
account, that person should be 
certified. 

591
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,840
They should be actively coaching
athletes. 

592
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,380
You should be able to find 
testimonials from those athletes

593
00:33:33,380 --> 00:33:36,460
or see that they're sharing, you
know, feedback from those 

594
00:33:36,460 --> 00:33:39,340
athletes, whatever it is, some 
some kind of proof that they are

595
00:33:39,340 --> 00:33:42,740
actually working with people. 
And they should also be 

596
00:33:42,740 --> 00:33:45,100
continuing their education as a 
coach. 

597
00:33:45,140 --> 00:33:47,420
You know, are they sharing 
studies that they're interested 

598
00:33:47,420 --> 00:33:49,780
in? 
Are they sharing, I don't know. 

599
00:33:49,860 --> 00:33:53,300
You know, articles that they 
think would benefit athletes? 

600
00:33:54,380 --> 00:33:57,380
I think the inspirational 
content is also great. 

601
00:33:57,420 --> 00:34:00,780
It's so cool to scroll through 
social media and see people 

602
00:34:00,780 --> 00:34:03,740
doing incredible running things 
or being honest about the hard 

603
00:34:03,740 --> 00:34:05,380
parts of running. 
That's great too. 

604
00:34:05,780 --> 00:34:09,780
But if you are just blindly 
following somebody who is only 

605
00:34:09,780 --> 00:34:13,500
sharing their running 
experience, that's not 

606
00:34:13,500 --> 00:34:19,860
expertise, that's opinion. 
And you might share some of 

607
00:34:19,860 --> 00:34:22,540
their opinions or their opinions
might resonate with you. 

608
00:34:22,940 --> 00:34:26,940
But if you want science backed 
expertise that will help you be 

609
00:34:26,940 --> 00:34:28,900
a better runner. 
You need to be consuming that 

610
00:34:28,900 --> 00:34:32,460
from somebody who has that 
background where they, you know,

611
00:34:32,699 --> 00:34:37,780
whether they're ADPT like you 
guys or a physical therapist in 

612
00:34:37,780 --> 00:34:44,739
a lab somewhere or a sports MD 
or a sports psychologist or a 

613
00:34:44,739 --> 00:34:48,540
coach on a, I don't know, pro 
athlete team. 

614
00:34:49,219 --> 00:34:52,620
Those are people who spent time 
studying the sport and have 

615
00:34:52,620 --> 00:34:55,659
really immersed themselves in it
beyond just what they do. 

616
00:34:56,820 --> 00:34:59,100
And I think that's what gives 
them a more well-rounded 

617
00:34:59,780 --> 00:35:02,860
foundation of expertise to share
as opposed to somebody who 

618
00:35:03,180 --> 00:35:06,900
started running and loves it and
wants to share their journey. 

619
00:35:08,220 --> 00:35:10,580
It yeah. 
So if you if you go on a, if you

620
00:35:10,580 --> 00:35:14,500
go on a like a Instagram account
and they have some educational 

621
00:35:14,500 --> 00:35:16,780
content, whatever, but they're 
also selling a product. 

622
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:21,240
So it could be for a specific 
like product like mobile board, 

623
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,280
you know, and I'm just throwing 
that out there just because that

624
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,480
is a something that I use that I
like to use with my patients 

625
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,880
that I work with. 
Or if it's a coach who's giving 

626
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,760
out like advice but they're also
selling their coaching services,

627
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,320
does that change how you would, 
how would you would view kind of

628
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,040
that page at all or or Yeah, 
does that have any change into 

629
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,280
it? 
I don't think it would change. 

630
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,040
I think everything that I just 
said still applies. 

631
00:35:45,970 --> 00:35:49,210
Like you still need to vet that 
person, especially if they're 

632
00:35:49,210 --> 00:35:51,810
Hawking specific products. 
Because I think there are a lot 

633
00:35:51,810 --> 00:35:56,170
of influencers out there who do 
make a living through 

634
00:35:56,170 --> 00:36:00,730
sponsorships and collaborations 
online, and there's nothing 

635
00:36:00,730 --> 00:36:03,890
wrong with that. 
But you, as a consumer of that 

636
00:36:03,890 --> 00:36:09,800
content, need to do your due 
diligence in vetting them and 

637
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:11,840
the product. 
Just because they use it doesn't

638
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,080
mean it will work for you. 
Just because they're, you know, 

639
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,280
sharing a 20% discount code 
doesn't mean that's a legitimate

640
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,920
product. 
If they're selling coaching 

641
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,520
plans, that's a different story.
That would not ever make me 

642
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,720
think any less of somebody. 
But again, the same thing 

643
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:31,080
applies. 
Like, are they certified? 

644
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:33,360
Do they have expertise, 
coaching. 

645
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,560
And also, you have to know that 
if you're buying a downloadable 

646
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,160
training plan where they're not 
giving you feedback, you know, 

647
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:46,840
weekly or whatever, or you can't
ask them questions, then that's 

648
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,200
not going to be as good as a 
training plan as a one-on-one 

649
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,760
coach. 
That doesn't mean it's bad, it 

650
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,880
just means you need to then have
some expertise on your own. 

651
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,050
You know, so many beginner 
runners will download plans. 

652
00:36:59,050 --> 00:37:01,210
I mean that's this is how I 
started training for marathons 

653
00:37:01,210 --> 00:37:03,690
too. 
I would, I would download, let's

654
00:37:03,690 --> 00:37:05,370
say a Runner's World or like Hal
higged in. 

655
00:37:05,370 --> 00:37:07,250
I feel like that's a really 
popular one with beginner 

656
00:37:07,250 --> 00:37:08,890
runners. 
And those are great. 

657
00:37:09,850 --> 00:37:13,090
But you, that's how you learn 
what to do and what not to do 

658
00:37:13,090 --> 00:37:15,770
because, you know, I downloaded 
one that was like a very high 

659
00:37:15,770 --> 00:37:18,770
mileage training plan. 
And I was so, so burned out by 

660
00:37:18,770 --> 00:37:21,250
the time I got, you know, four 
weeks out from the race. 

661
00:37:21,250 --> 00:37:22,690
And I was like, I can never do 
this again. 

662
00:37:22,690 --> 00:37:24,530
I was like, I need to work with 
a coach who can. 

663
00:37:24,650 --> 00:37:28,300
Who can tell me what is 
appropriate for my fitness 

664
00:37:28,300 --> 00:37:31,260
level? 
And so I think that's something 

665
00:37:31,260 --> 00:37:34,300
that people need to be really 
careful. 

666
00:37:35,740 --> 00:37:38,220
If you are going to download a 
plan from somebody because 

667
00:37:38,220 --> 00:37:44,940
they're an incredible social 
media influencer, you need to 

668
00:37:44,940 --> 00:37:46,380
know what you're getting into 
with that plan. 

669
00:37:46,580 --> 00:37:49,780
If you're not prepared to adjust
it for your life or you don't 

670
00:37:49,780 --> 00:37:53,540
know how to, you know, tweak 
workouts for your fitness level,

671
00:37:53,540 --> 00:37:56,620
whatever, then you'd be better 
served by hiring a coach. 

672
00:37:56,700 --> 00:37:59,420
It may be more expensive, but 
that investment is going to pay 

673
00:37:59,420 --> 00:38:04,540
off a lot more in the long run. 
I did a newsletter on this topic

674
00:38:04,540 --> 00:38:08,180
once and Jason Fitzgerald, who 
does the Strength Running 

675
00:38:08,180 --> 00:38:11,060
podcast, he had a great quote, 
which I'm gonna butcher because 

676
00:38:11,100 --> 00:38:14,660
my memory is terrible. 
But it was basically like, are 

677
00:38:14,660 --> 00:38:18,220
they an influencer first? 
Who does coach, or are they a 

678
00:38:18,220 --> 00:38:20,180
coach that also uses social 
media? 

679
00:38:20,300 --> 00:38:23,400
And so I think that's something 
that you have to think about 

680
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,520
when you are consuming that kind
of content. 

681
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,400
What is the person's main 
priority? 

682
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:32,000
Is it just to build a community 
and an audience and make a 

683
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,360
living that way through those 
branded collaborations, through 

684
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,960
selling, selling, training 
plans? 

685
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:43,040
Or are they a coach that has 
decided to use social media to 

686
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,680
further their, the reach of 
their expertise? 

687
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:47,480
Those are two very different 
things. 

688
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:53,010
And so I think that's on the 
social media user or consumer or

689
00:38:53,010 --> 00:38:56,290
whatever we call them that's on 
them to do that research. 

690
00:38:57,290 --> 00:38:59,930
Yeah, I think that's a really 
nice distinction because so I 

691
00:38:59,930 --> 00:39:03,250
lead a bio mechanics running lab
and within that is we're kind of

692
00:39:03,250 --> 00:39:05,610
the coaching's house. 
So I like to have a social media

693
00:39:05,610 --> 00:39:08,730
account to try to put out stuff 
that I think can help people 

694
00:39:08,730 --> 00:39:11,730
that they don't need me when I 
want for and some ideas for 

695
00:39:11,730 --> 00:39:13,650
exercises on conditions, 
whatever. 

696
00:39:14,490 --> 00:39:18,050
But we also sell the services 
that we do, you know, like we're

697
00:39:18,050 --> 00:39:20,170
trying to connect people to 
those opportunities. 

698
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,000
And so I I agree with you very 
much on you know the presence of

699
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,600
selling something doesn't 
discredit it, but it does for me

700
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,680
make me think like that. 
Question is, are they here 

701
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,320
selling this product so that you
know are they growing this to 

702
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,760
sell the product or are they 
like producing something really 

703
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,040
good and they use this as a 
platform to grow. 

704
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,720
So I I love that distinction 
that you well that Jason brought

705
00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:45,400
to us for you. 
Yes. 

706
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,600
Thank you, Jason. 
You know, I feel the same way. 

707
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:52,230
I am leading a small group for 
the New York Marathon for 

708
00:39:52,230 --> 00:39:54,310
training and it's kind of a 
hybrid. 

709
00:39:54,310 --> 00:39:56,590
It's not one-on-one coaching, 
but it's not like here's your 

710
00:39:56,590 --> 00:40:00,350
PDF, Godspeed. 
We have monthly checkins. 

711
00:40:00,350 --> 00:40:04,350
They all have direct access to 
me and Chris is the strength 

712
00:40:04,350 --> 00:40:06,150
training coach. 
So any questions that they have 

713
00:40:06,150 --> 00:40:08,870
to ask, they will get a response
within 24 hours. 

714
00:40:09,030 --> 00:40:11,430
And it's not just like through 
Instagram DM, like we have a 

715
00:40:11,430 --> 00:40:15,150
whole channel, you know, a 
community chat for it, so. 

716
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,280
I understand that coaching can 
be expensive for a lot of 

717
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,120
people, and I felt like this was
a way to kind of do the best of 

718
00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:25,600
both worlds. 
It's more affordable, but you're

719
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,160
still getting direct 
communication with a coach, 

720
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,720
which I think is key. 
You know, these plans are great 

721
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,000
if you know what you're doing, 
if you have lots of experience, 

722
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:36,720
especially with something like a
marathon. 

723
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,680
But life happens, things come 
up, you need to adjust. 

724
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:41,680
You have a vacation, you get 
sick. 

725
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,840
Whatever, you have an injury or 
a niggle start popping up that 

726
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:47,560
you need to address. 
You need to be able to talk to 

727
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,680
somebody. 
And just sending a DM isn't the 

728
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:56,360
best method to me in my opinion.
Yeah, and I totally agree with 

729
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,920
that. 
It's the direct communication 

730
00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:04,540
when things come up because. 
No training block ever goes 100%

731
00:41:04,540 --> 00:41:09,540
to plan, and as athletes, we're 
very bad at making adjustments 

732
00:41:09,540 --> 00:41:11,900
in the moment. 
We usually need somebody else to

733
00:41:12,460 --> 00:41:15,820
help us reason it through. 
Yeah, I think that's one of the 

734
00:41:15,820 --> 00:41:18,060
hard things about the running 
community. 

735
00:41:18,060 --> 00:41:21,220
I think it draws a lot of really
Type A people, myself included. 

736
00:41:21,700 --> 00:41:26,100
And I love following a plan. 
If you give me a plan, I will 

737
00:41:26,100 --> 00:41:31,280
follow it to a T, to my 
detriment in a lot of Catos. 

738
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,360
And so if you don't know, like 
at this point also because I 

739
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,760
have coaching certifications 
now, Like I could course correct

740
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,120
if something happened in the 
middle of a marathon build. 

741
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,240
But that's why I have a coach, 
because I don't want that mental

742
00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:49,400
load on myself. 
And I don't think that other 

743
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,440
runners should have that either.
I think that if you're going to 

744
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:58,500
invest the time into something 
like going for a PR or doing a 

745
00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:02,340
long distance race like a 
marathon, it's worth it for 

746
00:42:02,340 --> 00:42:06,420
those few months to get a coach.
Or if you think that you might 

747
00:42:06,420 --> 00:42:09,020
want to do that one day and 
you're just getting into 

748
00:42:09,020 --> 00:42:12,020
running, that's actually 
probably the best time to hire a

749
00:42:12,020 --> 00:42:16,220
one-on-one coach. 
Because then you can like, avoid

750
00:42:16,340 --> 00:42:20,180
all of the beginner issues that 
plague runners. 

751
00:42:20,180 --> 00:42:23,140
You know, like doing too much 
too soon or running too fast all

752
00:42:23,140 --> 00:42:26,050
the time. 
And that's that's what a coach 

753
00:42:26,050 --> 00:42:30,330
is there to do to help you, kind
of like to save you from 

754
00:42:30,330 --> 00:42:34,250
yourself kind of. 
And I don't know, I think like 

755
00:42:34,250 --> 00:42:38,370
to me that's worth the money 
100% because then like you know 

756
00:42:38,370 --> 00:42:43,970
you're spending all this money 
on $275 racing shoes and you 

757
00:42:43,970 --> 00:42:48,490
know, multiple race entry fees. 
Like there was some study, not 

758
00:42:48,490 --> 00:42:53,190
study, a survey about how much 
runners spend per year. 

759
00:42:53,190 --> 00:42:56,390
And I can't remember the exact 
amount of money, but let's say 

760
00:42:56,390 --> 00:43:00,150
it was like around 800. 
That's a lot of dollars to spend

761
00:43:00,150 --> 00:43:02,670
on a sport. 
And if you go out, like if you 

762
00:43:02,670 --> 00:43:05,550
commit to doing that and buying 
all the gear and signing up for 

763
00:43:05,550 --> 00:43:08,630
the races, but then you injure 
yourself, you know, before you 

764
00:43:08,630 --> 00:43:11,590
can even use any of that, What's
the point? 

765
00:43:12,230 --> 00:43:14,750
Use that money towards a coach 
who can help you get there in a 

766
00:43:14,750 --> 00:43:17,450
healthy way. 
I tell people, injuries are 

767
00:43:17,450 --> 00:43:21,930
expensive, so getting a coach 
usually costs less than all the 

768
00:43:21,930 --> 00:43:24,730
money you're going to spend 
trying to undo your injury. 

769
00:43:25,250 --> 00:43:28,330
So in the end, you'll probably 
have a better outcome with 

770
00:43:28,330 --> 00:43:32,330
whatever your fitness goals are.
But avoiding that injury also 

771
00:43:32,330 --> 00:43:34,210
usually saves you quite a bit of
money. 

772
00:43:34,490 --> 00:43:35,850
You know? 
Think how much money you spend 

773
00:43:35,850 --> 00:43:39,730
on massage or oh, your calf is 
always tight so you bought a 

774
00:43:39,730 --> 00:43:42,600
third gun. 
And you needed a few PT 

775
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,680
sessions, but you've got a high 
deductible and you had to go see

776
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,720
the orthopedist. 
Like that adds up to a year of 

777
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:54,200
coaching pretty quickly. 
So yeah, yeah, really quickly. 

778
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:59,040
Yeah, I 100% agree with that. 
I never want to get to a point 

779
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,920
where I have an injury that 
costs more than well, I don't 

780
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:05,560
spend a lot of my own gear, but 
you know what I mean? 

781
00:44:06,700 --> 00:44:11,220
I don't want to be like for me 
to be sidelined would be so sad 

782
00:44:11,220 --> 00:44:17,540
and such a like negative overall
in my life that that has value 

783
00:44:17,540 --> 00:44:18,700
too. 
I don't want that. 

784
00:44:18,700 --> 00:44:22,100
I'd rather spend the money I 
need to to train smart and stay 

785
00:44:22,100 --> 00:44:26,500
healthy. 
Then, you know, risk not being 

786
00:44:26,500 --> 00:44:29,700
able to do what I love. 
We're we're talking about health

787
00:44:29,700 --> 00:44:32,030
too, and. 
We've also been talking about 

788
00:44:32,030 --> 00:44:36,030
social media and vetting and how
reliable are these things? 

789
00:44:36,030 --> 00:44:39,790
What do we know about the 
reliability of like the of the 

790
00:44:39,790 --> 00:44:42,470
top influencers in this like 
fitness world? 

791
00:44:42,710 --> 00:44:46,470
And like, yeah, can you can you 
just you kind of reference this 

792
00:44:46,470 --> 00:44:48,590
a little bit, but like is there 
anything that we know concrete 

793
00:44:48,590 --> 00:44:52,590
about, like how reliable they 
are and you know, just how that 

794
00:44:52,590 --> 00:44:56,070
can influence our health overall
and whether being engaged in the

795
00:44:56,150 --> 00:44:57,910
media world is healthy for us as
runners. 

796
00:44:57,910 --> 00:44:58,950
Do you have thoughts on that 
too? 

797
00:44:59,310 --> 00:45:03,270
Yeah, I had flagged a couple 
studies that I have referenced 

798
00:45:03,750 --> 00:45:07,910
over the past couple years as 
I've been reporting on the 

799
00:45:08,270 --> 00:45:12,510
mental health side of running. 
I think that is the part of 

800
00:45:12,510 --> 00:45:15,150
running that is most interesting
to me because it's something 

801
00:45:15,150 --> 00:45:19,550
that I deal with a lot from an 
influencer perspective. 

802
00:45:19,550 --> 00:45:23,470
There was a study that came out 
that said approximately 2/3 of 

803
00:45:23,470 --> 00:45:26,910
the top 100 fit fluencers. 
So not not just running, but 

804
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:32,160
fitness influencers in general. 
They lack reliable guidance and 

805
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,360
promote messages that could 
potentially harm your mental or 

806
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,600
physical health. 
So not hate like. 

807
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:44,920
That's bad 2/3. 
Like, come on, that's too high. 

808
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:51,870
But I don't love that. 
And then I also deal a lot with 

809
00:45:51,870 --> 00:45:56,790
the mental effects of things 
like wearables and social media 

810
00:45:56,790 --> 00:45:59,510
platforms, whether it's 
Instagram or Strava. 

811
00:45:59,510 --> 00:46:04,390
And so I had found this study a 
while ago for a story that said,

812
00:46:04,790 --> 00:46:09,190
like using tracking platforms 
like Strava and Nike, my fitness

813
00:46:09,190 --> 00:46:11,950
Pal, any of those kind of 
platforms is great. 

814
00:46:11,950 --> 00:46:15,030
If you're using that as a way to
support other runners, encourage

815
00:46:15,030 --> 00:46:17,310
other runners, be a part of the 
community, that's awesome. 

816
00:46:17,590 --> 00:46:19,950
I love that. 
But if you're using it as sort 

817
00:46:19,950 --> 00:46:26,950
of a destination for kudos or 
praise public support, if that's

818
00:46:26,950 --> 00:46:30,710
what's, like, fueling your use 
of them, then then you're more 

819
00:46:30,710 --> 00:46:35,670
likely to be obsessive about 
exercise, which is bad, and 

820
00:46:35,670 --> 00:46:37,670
experience higher stress levels,
also bad. 

821
00:46:37,950 --> 00:46:43,210
So I'm very careful about how I 
use those platforms. 

822
00:46:43,210 --> 00:46:47,290
I think Strava is one that is 
practically ubiquitous at this 

823
00:46:47,290 --> 00:46:51,490
point, and it's great, but I 
never look at other people's 

824
00:46:51,490 --> 00:46:53,010
workouts. 
I don't wanna know what you're 

825
00:46:53,010 --> 00:46:54,010
doing. 
I don't care. 

826
00:46:54,330 --> 00:46:57,130
Like I'll kudos you because I 
think it's great that you got 

827
00:46:57,130 --> 00:46:58,970
out there and did something. 
But I don't wanna see your 

828
00:46:58,970 --> 00:47:00,890
splits. 
I don't wanna see how far you 

829
00:47:00,890 --> 00:47:04,070
went. 
Like, it's just to me that is 

830
00:47:04,070 --> 00:47:06,510
your journey. 
And I need to protect my journey

831
00:47:06,830 --> 00:47:09,750
because when I get too caught up
in what other people are doing, 

832
00:47:09,910 --> 00:47:12,270
it makes me feel bad about what 
I'm doing. 

833
00:47:12,270 --> 00:47:14,550
Like, why am I not running that 
many miles a week? 

834
00:47:14,910 --> 00:47:16,190
Oh, we're running the same 
marathon. 

835
00:47:16,190 --> 00:47:18,990
Why isn't my long run, as long 
as your long run? 

836
00:47:18,990 --> 00:47:21,670
And it's like, no, no, no, no, 
this is not. 

837
00:47:21,670 --> 00:47:25,310
You have no concept of the 
context around their training, 

838
00:47:25,310 --> 00:47:29,030
the nuances of their daily life.
Putting that kind of energy into

839
00:47:29,030 --> 00:47:32,870
that is not good and expecting 
that kind of feedback from other

840
00:47:32,870 --> 00:47:35,870
people. 
You know for to to log on to 

841
00:47:35,870 --> 00:47:39,510
Strava and like refresh for 
those likes or Instagram to be 

842
00:47:39,510 --> 00:47:41,550
just waiting for people to 
comment and engage with your 

843
00:47:41,550 --> 00:47:43,110
content. 
It's just like it's a not 

844
00:47:43,590 --> 00:47:47,350
doesn't feel great after a 
certain amount of time because 

845
00:47:47,710 --> 00:47:51,510
it starts to mess with your why 
of why you're running, why 

846
00:47:51,510 --> 00:47:54,590
you're doing this, why you're 
training for this particular 

847
00:47:54,590 --> 00:47:57,770
race. 
And I don't know, I find it 

848
00:47:57,770 --> 00:48:00,490
really important to put 
boundaries up around that kind 

849
00:48:00,490 --> 00:48:04,370
of social media consumption 
because I have let it get to me 

850
00:48:04,650 --> 00:48:06,970
in the past. 
And there was another study just

851
00:48:07,410 --> 00:48:10,890
remembering this one. 
People who share health related 

852
00:48:10,890 --> 00:48:14,010
data on social media are more 
likely to feel a pressure to 

853
00:48:14,010 --> 00:48:16,890
perform, and I relate to that 
very hard. 

854
00:48:18,050 --> 00:48:22,010
I love social media. 
I love sharing my fitness 

855
00:48:22,010 --> 00:48:24,050
journey or my expertise or 
whatever it is. 

856
00:48:24,250 --> 00:48:26,690
That's how I got into this. 
Like when I was training for 

857
00:48:26,690 --> 00:48:29,930
that Iron Man back in 2015, my 
friends thought I was insane. 

858
00:48:29,930 --> 00:48:31,410
None of them did anything like 
this. 

859
00:48:31,410 --> 00:48:34,930
They had no concept of what 
training for a race like that 

860
00:48:35,330 --> 00:48:37,890
entailed. 
And I found a community online 

861
00:48:37,890 --> 00:48:39,450
and that community was 
incredible. 

862
00:48:39,450 --> 00:48:42,170
And they would give me tips on, 
oh, you're doing this race, this

863
00:48:42,170 --> 00:48:44,890
is what the swim is like. 
Or you should look into this 

864
00:48:44,890 --> 00:48:46,690
thing for the bike or whatever 
kind of. 

865
00:48:46,690 --> 00:48:48,330
I mean, that was a long time 
ago, so I don't remember the 

866
00:48:48,330 --> 00:48:52,910
particular advice, but finding 
that community is really what 

867
00:48:52,910 --> 00:48:56,750
hooked me into the fitness world
and I wouldn't give that up for 

868
00:48:56,750 --> 00:48:58,950
anything. 
But like I said, I think it's 

869
00:48:58,950 --> 00:49:04,070
really important to a create 
awareness around how you use 

870
00:49:04,070 --> 00:49:07,150
social media and be set up 
boundaries to make sure you're 

871
00:49:07,150 --> 00:49:10,350
doing that in a healthy way and 
that can be different for 

872
00:49:10,390 --> 00:49:11,830
everybody. 
Absolutely. 

873
00:49:11,830 --> 00:49:14,670
It's kind of like back in the 
day of print magazines. 

874
00:49:15,070 --> 00:49:18,470
All of the studies that found 
like if you looked at like any 

875
00:49:18,470 --> 00:49:21,430
of the women's fashion 
magazines, like yourself, esteem

876
00:49:21,430 --> 00:49:23,590
was lower, your body image was 
poor. 

877
00:49:23,590 --> 00:49:26,910
All of that. 
Now if you're obsessively 

878
00:49:26,910 --> 00:49:30,510
looking at people's workouts on 
Strava or like scrolling on 

879
00:49:30,510 --> 00:49:34,110
Instagram and seeing everybody's
like perfect videos of them 

880
00:49:34,110 --> 00:49:38,990
running, it can damage your self
esteem and feelings of self. 

881
00:49:39,110 --> 00:49:41,190
Self worth in a similar manner 
and I. 

882
00:49:41,270 --> 00:49:45,190
I think it is important for 
people to be aware of, like you 

883
00:49:45,190 --> 00:49:49,190
said, how they're using these 
platforms and the effect it has 

884
00:49:49,230 --> 00:49:51,550
on them. 
I just wanted to reiterate, 

885
00:49:51,550 --> 00:49:55,310
that's where it comes down to 
you setting up healthy 

886
00:49:55,310 --> 00:49:57,150
boundaries, because this isn't 
going away. 

887
00:49:57,710 --> 00:50:03,390
It's a part of our life and like
it or not, it's becoming an even

888
00:50:03,550 --> 00:50:07,550
bigger part of sport. 
And there are pluses and 

889
00:50:07,550 --> 00:50:10,860
negatives to that. 
But it comes down to the user. 

890
00:50:10,860 --> 00:50:13,940
If you are somebody who is 
triggered by people sharing 

891
00:50:13,940 --> 00:50:19,780
their paces, and if you see that
somebody ran a 9 minute easy 

892
00:50:19,780 --> 00:50:23,100
mile and you feel like you need 
to do that, but really you 

893
00:50:23,100 --> 00:50:26,910
should be running a 10 minute 
easy mile, that's on you. 

894
00:50:26,990 --> 00:50:29,510
It's not on that other person on
social media. 

895
00:50:29,510 --> 00:50:32,550
So you are the one who has to 
either remove yourself from it. 

896
00:50:32,750 --> 00:50:36,870
That may mean leaving Strava or 
for me personally, I stopped 

897
00:50:36,870 --> 00:50:40,270
sharing paces on Instagram. 
I found that when I was 

898
00:50:40,270 --> 00:50:41,750
training. 
I don't even remember what race 

899
00:50:41,750 --> 00:50:44,880
it was. 
I kept seeing other people 

900
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,520
sharing their paces and 
questioning my own workouts. 

901
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,720
And should I be going faster? 
They're training for the same 

902
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:54,760
race then, like, why am I not 
doing that level of volume or 

903
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:58,160
hitting those paces yet? 
And I finally just decided to 

904
00:50:58,160 --> 00:50:59,520
stop. 
And I did a story on this. 

905
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:00,600
I think it was for Runner's 
World. 

906
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,520
When you stop sharing things, 
you're less likely to pay 

907
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,160
attention to them from other 
people. 

908
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:10,560
And so obviously I share my pace
on Strava. 

909
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,080
But to me, Strava is not a 
platform I spend a ton of time 

910
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,600
on. 
Instagram is really where, like,

911
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:17,800
if I'm gonna worry about mental 
health things, it's coming from 

912
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,800
Instagram. 
So I stopped sharing my pace, 

913
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:24,080
and I stopped caring about it as
much. 

914
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,400
That's big. 
I think the more that we share 

915
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:31,160
stuff, the more it can get 
ingrained with what we perceive 

916
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:35,920
as our identity as a runner. 
And so you can lose your why if 

917
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:37,800
your why wasn't? 
Because I wanna be. 

918
00:51:38,610 --> 00:51:41,450
The best runner in the world or 
the most cool looking runner in 

919
00:51:41,450 --> 00:51:44,650
the world If that's not your why
and you try to like make your 

920
00:51:44,650 --> 00:51:48,010
life about posting things in a 
in a certain way it can just 

921
00:51:48,010 --> 00:51:50,050
start to seep in. 
And I think as you're talking 

922
00:51:50,050 --> 00:51:52,970
about setting up boundaries, it 
takes a very honest reflection 

923
00:51:52,970 --> 00:51:56,770
of what happens to you when you 
post or when you don't post, or 

924
00:51:56,770 --> 00:51:59,370
when you look at somebody else's
thing or if you click into it. 

925
00:51:59,850 --> 00:52:02,330
It the and the honest reflection
part is sometimes hard because 

926
00:52:02,330 --> 00:52:04,890
it starts to reveal stuff about 
yourself that you might not want

927
00:52:04,890 --> 00:52:07,340
to admit. 
And I think that's one of the 

928
00:52:07,340 --> 00:52:11,660
harder parts of the process. 
And I think for myself, I know, 

929
00:52:11,660 --> 00:52:14,180
I don't know Andrew for you, but
like for myself, when I get 

930
00:52:14,180 --> 00:52:18,060
injured, that's a really hard 
thing to, like, be real about 

931
00:52:18,060 --> 00:52:19,900
sometimes because I'm a physical
therapist. 

932
00:52:20,420 --> 00:52:24,060
So I shouldn't get hurt. 
I'm also coaching runners to 

933
00:52:24,140 --> 00:52:26,460
like not help them, to get to 
help them not get hurt. 

934
00:52:26,620 --> 00:52:29,820
So I also shouldn't get hurt. 
But I get hurt. 

935
00:52:29,820 --> 00:52:32,020
I'm hurt right now and I'm 
haven't been running for a 

936
00:52:32,020 --> 00:52:34,740
little while. 
So it's it's one of those you 

937
00:52:34,740 --> 00:52:38,340
have to embrace that reality of 
of what's going on instead of 

938
00:52:38,340 --> 00:52:43,180
trying to create a facade that 
portrays something that's not 

939
00:52:43,180 --> 00:52:45,820
real. 
And but again, it takes that 

940
00:52:46,100 --> 00:52:49,800
real reflection on. 
An honest reflection on what 

941
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:53,360
happens to me when when I post, 
when I look, when I would ever 

942
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:55,600
to be able to set those 
boundaries so. 

943
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:58,400
Yeah, I would. 
I would definitely agree with 

944
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:02,160
that, Nathan. 
I was a cyclist actually, before

945
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:06,160
I got back into running a few 
years ago and I was injured for 

946
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:09,400
almost a year and couldn't ride 
and I wasn't running, so I was 

947
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,950
basically hiking. 
And I just had to delete Strava.

948
00:53:12,950 --> 00:53:15,990
And like, I didn't want to see 
what my friends were doing on 

949
00:53:15,990 --> 00:53:17,710
their bikes. 
I didn't want to see like the 

950
00:53:17,710 --> 00:53:21,590
races I was missing out on. 
Because for me it was just I 

951
00:53:21,590 --> 00:53:25,430
needed to forget about that 
because I was injured. 

952
00:53:25,430 --> 00:53:29,270
I just, I didn't want to see it.
But then, of course, as I got 

953
00:53:29,270 --> 00:53:31,990
back on the bike, back came 
Strava. 

954
00:53:31,990 --> 00:53:36,110
You know, but you just have to 
know where you're at and you 

955
00:53:36,110 --> 00:53:38,350
know whatever part of life 
you're in and. 

956
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,600
If you need to delete Strava 
while you're injured or sick or 

957
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:46,920
you know don't have time to run 
because you know you have really

958
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:50,760
busy job or you just had a baby 
or something, then do that for 

959
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:54,880
your own mental health. 
Nobody is forcing you to be on 

960
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:59,880
Strava or be on Instagram. 
Like just self assess and decide

961
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:02,320
what is best for you at a given 
time. 

962
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,600
Those platforms, like you said 
Ashley, aren't going anywhere. 

963
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:07,720
They'll be back when you want 
them back. 

964
00:54:08,350 --> 00:54:11,070
Yeah. 
I do think whether you are using

965
00:54:11,070 --> 00:54:15,270
those platforms as a part of 
your business or you're just a 

966
00:54:15,510 --> 00:54:18,550
regular social media user, 
there's still this pressure to 

967
00:54:18,550 --> 00:54:22,750
perform and to, you know, have 
incredible running photos and, 

968
00:54:23,030 --> 00:54:28,510
you know, detail every minute 
of, you know, your race day or 

969
00:54:28,510 --> 00:54:30,310
whatever. 
And I do all those things too. 

970
00:54:30,310 --> 00:54:34,190
So I'm not judging it, but I 
think that pressure to perform 

971
00:54:34,990 --> 00:54:37,390
can be really detrimental to 
some people. 

972
00:54:37,390 --> 00:54:38,790
Some people love it and that's 
great. 

973
00:54:39,070 --> 00:54:42,070
But there have been, you know, I
go through faces sometimes I do 

974
00:54:42,070 --> 00:54:47,110
love it, and sometimes I feel 
like I don't have enough to 

975
00:54:47,110 --> 00:54:50,510
share or I don't feel in a space
that I want to share. 

976
00:54:50,950 --> 00:54:53,310
And Nathan, you also made me 
think of this. 

977
00:54:54,910 --> 00:54:57,990
I think a lot of times when we 
look at running social media, 

978
00:54:57,990 --> 00:55:02,730
it's relentlessly positive. 
You know, it's I love this. 

979
00:55:02,810 --> 00:55:04,970
Anybody can do it. 
It's so accessible. 

980
00:55:04,970 --> 00:55:07,970
It's so great. 
You know, exercises, my therapy,

981
00:55:07,970 --> 00:55:10,170
all that kind of stuff, which is
great. 

982
00:55:10,290 --> 00:55:12,690
You know that that's great that 
it's a positive community. 

983
00:55:12,690 --> 00:55:16,250
But I also think there are a lot
of people in the community who 

984
00:55:16,250 --> 00:55:17,810
don't feel positive all the 
time. 

985
00:55:18,010 --> 00:55:19,370
I don't feel positive all the 
time. 

986
00:55:19,570 --> 00:55:21,850
I deal with depression. 
And I finally, like, started 

987
00:55:21,850 --> 00:55:25,250
talking about that because I did
feel this pressure to perform 

988
00:55:25,530 --> 00:55:28,930
and be this happy runner, you 
know, sharing my expertise and 

989
00:55:28,930 --> 00:55:31,730
talking about how much I love 
this thing when there were some 

990
00:55:31,730 --> 00:55:34,890
days where I, like, didn't want 
to get out of bed and running 

991
00:55:34,890 --> 00:55:38,130
made me feel worse. 
And I think being transparent 

992
00:55:38,130 --> 00:55:42,130
about those sides of things too 
is really important because I 

993
00:55:42,130 --> 00:55:44,610
guarantee there are runners out 
there who can relate to that. 

994
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,520
I'm I think this has been a 
really great conversation about 

995
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:53,560
social media and I want to move 
on to the hottest topic in the 

996
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:55,880
online world, which of course is
AI. 

997
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:59,920
And you know, it's broken into 
everything we know. 

998
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,680
We've seen some really terrible 
articles that it's written about

999
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:09,520
shoes and everything else. 
So what are your thoughts on AI 

1000
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:14,280
and how the journalism world is 
using it now and what you think 

1001
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:18,180
the future of it is? 
I mean, I don't love it, like 

1002
00:56:20,180 --> 00:56:24,820
and I think everybody talking 
about how it's going to steal my

1003
00:56:24,820 --> 00:56:27,980
job don't love that either. 
No. 

1004
00:56:27,980 --> 00:56:32,340
But I also don't think that 
that's true because I've seen AI

1005
00:56:32,340 --> 00:56:35,580
generated copy and it's bad. 
Like, it's really bad. 

1006
00:56:35,980 --> 00:56:41,330
So I think my job is OK once 
these big corporations realize 

1007
00:56:41,330 --> 00:56:43,810
that this may not be the best 
move. 

1008
00:56:43,810 --> 00:56:48,210
You know we're going from 
pivoting to video to ecom to A I

1009
00:56:49,090 --> 00:56:54,210
I don't, I don't think A I is 
going to be a great option for 

1010
00:56:54,210 --> 00:56:56,770
these companies. 
I think that what A I does at 

1011
00:56:56,770 --> 00:56:59,370
this point from an editorial 
perspective, it just it 

1012
00:56:59,530 --> 00:57:03,210
regurgitates things. 
So it's either regurgitating 

1013
00:57:04,230 --> 00:57:07,110
other content that already lives
on the Internet or it's 

1014
00:57:07,110 --> 00:57:11,030
regurgitating product stacks, 
you know, for gear reviews. 

1015
00:57:11,510 --> 00:57:16,870
And that is to me like the 
lowest form of copy if you're 

1016
00:57:16,870 --> 00:57:22,670
just regurgitating other stuff 
and you can 100% tell when a 

1017
00:57:22,670 --> 00:57:24,590
human has written something 
versus a machine. 

1018
00:57:24,590 --> 00:57:29,070
It just a I lacks like the 
nuance and the creativity and 

1019
00:57:29,070 --> 00:57:32,940
the personal insights that go 
into a review. 

1020
00:57:32,940 --> 00:57:34,740
I'll I'll use reviews as an 
example for now. 

1021
00:57:34,740 --> 00:57:40,420
Like a I cannot tell you how a 
hydration belt felt during an 18

1022
00:57:40,420 --> 00:57:42,180
mile run. 
It can't. 

1023
00:57:42,300 --> 00:57:47,060
All it can do is use similarly 
written stories from the 

1024
00:57:47,060 --> 00:57:51,540
Internet and product specs for 
that hydration belt and string 

1025
00:57:51,540 --> 00:57:55,780
them together in a way that is 
like coherent I'm sure, but 

1026
00:57:56,060 --> 00:58:00,200
lacks any kind of 
personalization and any anything

1027
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:03,040
more informative than what you 
would find just in the bullet 

1028
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:09,000
points on a products web page. 
So I don't, I'm not super 

1029
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:13,000
worried. 
Hopefully I think that it has 

1030
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:18,360
some place in content. 
It may be in summarizing bullet 

1031
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:25,880
points for news stories or there
may be use cases for it in like 

1032
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:30,520
legal writing or I don't know, 
maybe even some scientific 

1033
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:34,440
writing when it comes to like 
condensing points, you know, 

1034
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:37,920
something like that. 
But we are not there yet. 

1035
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:42,560
And so I think any publication 
that is using it, like I hope 

1036
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:46,080
they're using it very cautiously
because we've seen a lot of 

1037
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:51,600
cases where it has just straight
up made-up studies or made-up 

1038
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:55,950
information, made-up sources. 
I said I could use it in legal 

1039
00:58:55,950 --> 00:58:59,390
cases, but like there was a news
story about how some lawyer used

1040
00:58:59,390 --> 00:59:05,390
ChatGPT and like it just made-up
cases that it cited in the 

1041
00:59:05,390 --> 00:59:07,150
brief. 
So it's just like it's just 

1042
00:59:07,190 --> 00:59:10,750
making things up because it's 
copying a format of what an 

1043
00:59:10,750 --> 00:59:13,750
article or what a case brief or 
what a study should look like 

1044
00:59:13,750 --> 00:59:15,790
and that doesn't benefit 
anybody. 

1045
00:59:15,870 --> 00:59:18,830
So I hope that publications are 
using it really, really 

1046
00:59:18,830 --> 00:59:21,910
cautiously. 
I think that's what scares me 

1047
00:59:21,910 --> 00:59:26,570
about it is. 
Lack of wise use of AI because 

1048
00:59:26,770 --> 00:59:30,410
like you just said, so I was 
doing some stuff so I helped 

1049
00:59:30,410 --> 00:59:34,090
teach at the university around 
here and just like kind of, and 

1050
00:59:34,090 --> 00:59:36,050
I'm also in grad school. 
So just thinking about what 

1051
00:59:36,050 --> 00:59:39,890
happens and yeah, the studies 
were made-up. 

1052
00:59:40,390 --> 00:59:45,390
And I know for for most people, 
when they read something, they 

1053
00:59:45,390 --> 00:59:48,670
either don't care that citations
exist or they see that they 

1054
00:59:48,670 --> 00:59:51,030
exist and they'll Scroll down 
like, Oh yeah, look, it's cited,

1055
00:59:51,030 --> 00:59:53,950
it's a real thing. 
And most people don't go through

1056
00:59:53,950 --> 00:59:56,870
the process. 
So it's going to be really easy 

1057
00:59:56,870 --> 01:00:01,070
to, you know, create this 
article through AI that has 

1058
01:00:01,070 --> 01:00:04,150
these sources that claim to back
up XY or Z. 

1059
01:00:05,410 --> 01:00:08,130
And then the reality is there's 
no source there. 

1060
01:00:08,130 --> 01:00:11,690
But it seems more valid because 
there's a citation listed even 

1061
01:00:11,690 --> 01:00:12,730
though it's not real. 
That's. 

1062
01:00:12,890 --> 01:00:16,450
Like scares me about it. 
It it looks yes, exactly. 

1063
01:00:16,770 --> 01:00:19,770
It's like, oh, no, like that's a
scary thing, you know? 

1064
01:00:20,890 --> 01:00:23,730
And it's just gonna take, it's 
all the more important to find 

1065
01:00:23,730 --> 01:00:26,250
the people who you can trust 
through kind of that vetting 

1066
01:00:26,250 --> 01:00:28,330
system. 
And it just takes more work to 

1067
01:00:28,330 --> 01:00:31,010
make sure that you're getting 
reliable information. 

1068
01:00:31,690 --> 01:00:35,530
I do think on the flip side. 
A lot of fitness machines are 

1069
01:00:35,530 --> 01:00:41,050
now using a I, you know, within 
their computer models, you know,

1070
01:00:41,050 --> 01:00:45,890
behind a tonal or a bike or 
whatever it is, and I think that

1071
01:00:45,930 --> 01:00:49,290
is cool. 
That use of a I in fitness is 

1072
01:00:49,290 --> 01:00:51,130
very interesting to me and I've 
covered it a lot. 

1073
01:00:51,450 --> 01:00:56,890
That said, it's also not 100% 
there yet, and just because you 

1074
01:00:56,890 --> 01:01:01,370
know some machine is using a I 
to determine the right weights 

1075
01:01:01,370 --> 01:01:05,320
for you in a given moment. 
That is cool. 

1076
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:09,960
But again, having a coach who 
can understand the nuance of 

1077
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:13,120
where you are. 
So, like, your tonal might say 

1078
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:19,280
that you can lift, you know, 40 
pounds on one arm that day, but 

1079
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:21,480
what if you're really stressed 
or you hadn't recovered from 

1080
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:25,360
something, or you're getting 
sick And like, a coach is 

1081
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:27,080
somebody who takes those things 
into account? 

1082
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:31,520
And so I think when it comes to 
using a I within fitness, that's

1083
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:34,400
really cool. 
But you can still benefit from 

1084
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:38,960
the AI human hybrid. 
So having a coach there, 

1085
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:42,560
something like tonal where there
is a coach leading it and you're

1086
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:47,400
also getting AI in the machine. 
They can cue you to change 

1087
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:51,120
things if you're not responding 
to what the machine is 

1088
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:52,680
automatically populating for 
you. 

1089
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:59,080
So I think there's more use case
for AI in that side of fitness, 

1090
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:02,200
but I don't want to see it in 
editorial. 

1091
01:02:04,830 --> 01:02:08,030
I just don't and I don't want to
see it in training plans ever. 

1092
01:02:09,470 --> 01:02:13,270
There's a big push in the 
Cycling World to use AI for bike

1093
01:02:13,270 --> 01:02:17,550
fitting, and I'm also a bike 
fitter and it's just horrifying 

1094
01:02:17,550 --> 01:02:22,390
what people think bike fitting 
is and the fact that AI would be

1095
01:02:22,390 --> 01:02:27,870
capable of producing a equal or 
better fit to a well trained 

1096
01:02:27,990 --> 01:02:29,910
human bike fitter. 
Like why? 

1097
01:02:30,070 --> 01:02:31,470
Why? 
Why do we need that? 

1098
01:02:33,100 --> 01:02:34,980
Because it's going to the. 
Human. 

1099
01:02:37,100 --> 01:02:43,940
I know I I am 100% on your side,
but there's a lot of people in 

1100
01:02:43,940 --> 01:02:48,460
the cycling industry who think 
that someday they will design an

1101
01:02:48,460 --> 01:02:54,060
AI generated bike fitting system
and they will be very rich and 

1102
01:02:54,460 --> 01:02:58,140
bike fitting will be brought to 
the masses by your computer. 

1103
01:02:58,730 --> 01:03:02,890
I just think like AI is coming 
from this place of like how can 

1104
01:03:02,890 --> 01:03:06,970
we streamline every single thing
and be as productive as 

1105
01:03:06,970 --> 01:03:09,210
possible. 
And you know, at least from a 

1106
01:03:09,210 --> 01:03:11,930
editorial standpoint, it's like 
OK, how can we turn out even 

1107
01:03:11,930 --> 01:03:14,250
more content? 
It's like, well, is that churn 

1108
01:03:14,250 --> 01:03:16,210
even benefiting anybody at this 
point? 

1109
01:03:16,210 --> 01:03:21,250
To me getting sucked into that 
like you need to write X number 

1110
01:03:21,250 --> 01:03:25,010
of articles and hit X number of 
views you know per page or 

1111
01:03:25,250 --> 01:03:30,220
monthly uniques it like. 
It sacrifices the quality of the

1112
01:03:30,220 --> 01:03:34,780
content, and if you have good 
content, you're going to engage 

1113
01:03:34,780 --> 01:03:39,340
people more. 
More content doesn't necessarily

1114
01:03:39,420 --> 01:03:43,340
engage people in a better way. 
Maybe you're getting more eyes 

1115
01:03:43,340 --> 01:03:44,860
on it, but are they sticking 
around? 

1116
01:03:44,860 --> 01:03:48,340
No, because if it's a shitty 
review, they're not going to 

1117
01:03:48,340 --> 01:03:51,420
come back for more reviews. 
And so, I don't know, I feel 

1118
01:03:51,420 --> 01:03:55,320
like our whole. 
Societal approach to optimizing 

1119
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:59,720
literally everything and being 
as productive as possible 24/7. 

1120
01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:04,320
It's exhausting and I'm tired of
it and I really would love for 

1121
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:06,320
the pendulum to start swinging 
in the other direction. 

1122
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:10,680
Well, so much of it is taking 
the human out of whatever you're

1123
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:12,600
talking about, whether you're 
talking about like. 

1124
01:04:13,100 --> 01:04:19,860
Self checkout lanes or AI 
generated training plans or AI 

1125
01:04:19,860 --> 01:04:22,860
coaches inside of your tonal or 
AI bike fit. 

1126
01:04:23,380 --> 01:04:26,580
Humans are the most expensive 
variable when it comes to a 

1127
01:04:26,580 --> 01:04:32,580
business, and replacing humans 
with a machine to people who 

1128
01:04:32,580 --> 01:04:37,980
count beans sounds good, and it 
looks good on paper, but the 

1129
01:04:37,980 --> 01:04:42,020
quality of the product that you 
get is often much worse. 

1130
01:04:42,670 --> 01:04:44,310
And then what happens to all the
humans? 

1131
01:04:44,950 --> 01:04:46,270
Exactly. 
What do we do? 

1132
01:04:47,470 --> 01:04:52,070
No, it's the it's a fighting 
battle of values like, I mean 

1133
01:04:52,230 --> 01:04:56,310
it's a much like bigger value, 
you know system thing that 

1134
01:04:57,030 --> 01:05:00,270
unfortunately leads to some of 
this stuff, yeah. 

1135
01:05:00,830 --> 01:05:04,070
Well, now that we've gone in an 
entirely different direction 

1136
01:05:04,270 --> 01:05:10,790
with this podcast, let's just 
talk briefly Ashley about. 

1137
01:05:11,660 --> 01:05:14,260
The changes that we've been 
talking about from like print 

1138
01:05:14,260 --> 01:05:18,820
journalism to social media and 
everything online, and I think 

1139
01:05:18,820 --> 01:05:22,180
you've touched on it a little 
bit, but how do you deal with 

1140
01:05:22,180 --> 01:05:25,220
burnout with relation to content
creation? 

1141
01:05:25,220 --> 01:05:29,300
If, I mean, I don't produce a 
ton of content, I produce some. 

1142
01:05:29,300 --> 01:05:32,100
And sometimes, yeah, you're 
just, you don't want to get in 

1143
01:05:32,100 --> 01:05:35,020
front of the camera, you don't 
want to do this or that. 

1144
01:05:35,020 --> 01:05:38,780
So how do you feel about always 
producing content? 

1145
01:05:38,780 --> 01:05:40,660
How do you deal with the 
pressures of that? 

1146
01:05:41,420 --> 01:05:43,980
I mean, am I? 
I don't know. 

1147
01:05:45,300 --> 01:05:47,460
I don't think I'm doing 
particularly well with it all 

1148
01:05:47,460 --> 01:05:52,380
the time. 
Burnout is very, very, very 

1149
01:05:52,380 --> 01:05:54,740
real. 
And as I said earlier, I think 

1150
01:05:54,740 --> 01:06:00,180
the last three years especially,
it's become a massive problem. 

1151
01:06:01,500 --> 01:06:05,580
You know, you've got less and 
less staff writers who are 

1152
01:06:05,660 --> 01:06:09,660
incredibly overworked, more and 
more freelancers and. 

1153
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:15,400
Like the industry has just kind 
of deteriorated to this point 

1154
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:21,920
where trying to play stories 
feels impossible and you're just

1155
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:25,600
churning out the ecom driven 
stories, the SEO stories, which 

1156
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:28,600
you can have value, but they 
aren't always the most 

1157
01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:31,800
creatively fulfilling stories. 
And so how do you find a balance

1158
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:35,560
between those stories and then 
stories that you really want to 

1159
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:38,280
tell? 
And so I I don't know. 

1160
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:40,780
I mean. 
I don't have a solution for it 

1161
01:06:40,860 --> 01:06:45,620
yet. 
I am burned out 90% of the time.

1162
01:06:48,060 --> 01:06:51,740
I think one of the ways that I 
have been dealing with it is 

1163
01:06:51,740 --> 01:06:58,260
moving over to more social media
content because using I'll use 

1164
01:06:58,260 --> 01:07:00,340
Instagram because that's my main
platform. 

1165
01:07:00,380 --> 01:07:05,100
Using Instagram as a way of 
telling stories has been a fun 

1166
01:07:06,500 --> 01:07:08,460
different challenge than 
writing. 

1167
01:07:09,540 --> 01:07:12,020
You know, an 800 to 1200 word 
story. 

1168
01:07:12,900 --> 01:07:15,860
And I have to, like, flex 
different creative muscles. 

1169
01:07:15,860 --> 01:07:19,220
I have to learn how to be on 
camera, which I'm kind of 

1170
01:07:19,220 --> 01:07:22,820
awkward about. 
I have to, you know, learn video

1171
01:07:22,820 --> 01:07:26,220
editing and some sound editing 
to some extent. 

1172
01:07:26,220 --> 01:07:29,100
And you have to learn what 
resonates with people and what 

1173
01:07:29,100 --> 01:07:31,740
doesn't And how, like, sometimes
the things you spend the most 

1174
01:07:31,740 --> 01:07:33,460
time on, like, fall completely 
flat. 

1175
01:07:33,460 --> 01:07:35,620
And then you post a stupid 
little video that took you 10 

1176
01:07:35,620 --> 01:07:38,700
seconds and that goes viral and 
you're like, what? 

1177
01:07:39,180 --> 01:07:44,300
But having that as an outlet has
been a fun, different challenge,

1178
01:07:44,300 --> 01:07:47,620
which offsets some of the 
burnout that comes from doing 

1179
01:07:47,620 --> 01:07:51,180
the same thing over and over 
again for traditional media. 

1180
01:07:52,340 --> 01:07:54,780
I also started my own 
newsletter, which is something I

1181
01:07:54,780 --> 01:07:57,700
do have creative, total creative
control over. 

1182
01:07:58,540 --> 01:08:00,620
And so, you know, there have 
been a lot of stories that I 

1183
01:08:00,620 --> 01:08:03,580
haven't found. 
Homes for over the past couple 

1184
01:08:03,580 --> 01:08:06,940
years and now I have a place 
that I can share those. 

1185
01:08:07,140 --> 01:08:08,980
Does it have the same kind of 
reach yet? 

1186
01:08:09,020 --> 01:08:11,340
As you know, some of the 
publications that I've written 

1187
01:08:11,340 --> 01:08:15,660
for, no. 
But I also have a decent 

1188
01:08:15,660 --> 01:08:18,100
audience on social media. 
So sharing the newsletter to 

1189
01:08:18,100 --> 01:08:21,340
social media and then trying to 
drive audience over to that 

1190
01:08:21,340 --> 01:08:25,890
platform substack. 
Has also been a fun challenge. 

1191
01:08:25,930 --> 01:08:28,210
And again, nobody's editing my 
stories. 

1192
01:08:28,210 --> 01:08:33,170
Nobody's twisting the idea, you 
know, from a trend story into an

1193
01:08:33,210 --> 01:08:35,550
econ story. 
I'm just getting to write the 

1194
01:08:35,550 --> 01:08:36,790
story the way that I would write
it. 

1195
01:08:36,870 --> 01:08:40,590
And I'm getting to respond to 
people's questions. 

1196
01:08:40,830 --> 01:08:42,590
What what kind of content do 
they want? 

1197
01:08:42,590 --> 01:08:46,109
I'm able to address that 
directly, and I hear their 

1198
01:08:46,109 --> 01:08:47,390
feedback. 
I can't tell you how many 

1199
01:08:47,390 --> 01:08:49,910
stories I've submitted to 
magazines that just get 

1200
01:08:49,910 --> 01:08:52,630
published and I get no feedback 
whatsoever. 

1201
01:08:52,830 --> 01:08:54,870
They're barely edited. 
Editing is a good thing. 

1202
01:08:54,870 --> 01:08:57,790
I want to be edited. 
I want somebody to make my story

1203
01:08:57,910 --> 01:08:59,750
better. 
But the reality is so many 

1204
01:08:59,750 --> 01:09:02,149
editors are overworked that they
don't have time. 

1205
01:09:02,620 --> 01:09:04,180
Is it clean? 
Does it all make sense? 

1206
01:09:04,180 --> 01:09:07,700
Great, they put it up. 
But being able to interact 

1207
01:09:07,700 --> 01:09:09,740
directly with the people who are
reading the stories and answer 

1208
01:09:09,740 --> 01:09:13,260
their questions on my newsletter
has been a nice way for me to 

1209
01:09:13,260 --> 01:09:15,580
just feel good about the stuff 
that I'm writing. 

1210
01:09:15,580 --> 01:09:19,899
And that has kind of offset some
of the burnout. 

1211
01:09:20,100 --> 01:09:24,420
But is it a long, you know, is 
it a sustainable solution? 

1212
01:09:24,580 --> 01:09:26,620
I don't know. 
I'm not getting paid for it, so 

1213
01:09:27,540 --> 01:09:29,899
that makes it hard. 
Yeah. 

1214
01:09:30,460 --> 01:09:33,340
You know, you never know in a 
year, yeah. 

1215
01:09:33,939 --> 01:09:36,420
So it's it's a hard balance, I 
think. 

1216
01:09:36,460 --> 01:09:40,140
And I think one of the hardest 
parts about freelancing right 

1217
01:09:40,140 --> 01:09:44,180
now is just how do I even say 
this? 

1218
01:09:44,180 --> 01:09:49,380
It's like the lack of 
appreciation for writing as a 

1219
01:09:49,380 --> 01:09:54,540
talent and a skill. 
Writers are so undervalued. 

1220
01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:59,280
And it is very hard to be 
constantly advocating for 

1221
01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:04,720
yourself, asking for fair rates,
you know, asking for the scope 

1222
01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:07,480
of work to be accurately 
reflected in that rate. 

1223
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:11,920
It's it's hard because there 
have been a lot of places I've 

1224
01:10:11,920 --> 01:10:17,600
had to say no to because I can't
feasibly make a living on 

1225
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:20,440
stories that are that low 
paying. 

1226
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:25,120
And it sucks to have to put a 
value on things like that or to 

1227
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:28,120
be undervalued that way. 
And like, no, I know I'm worth 

1228
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:29,640
more than that. 
I'm good at what I do. 

1229
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:32,840
I have this expertise. 
You know, I've been doing this a

1230
01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:37,360
very long time. 
Why is that not being recognized

1231
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:39,320
or why does that feel like it's 
not being recognized? 

1232
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:40,840
And I know it's not just me that
feels that way. 

1233
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:46,120
I know that's like a system wide
issue, but it is very exhausting

1234
01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:52,230
I think to constantly be asking.
For more when more is just 

1235
01:10:52,230 --> 01:10:54,710
what's fair. 
Not, you know, you're not asking

1236
01:10:54,710 --> 01:10:57,950
for exorbitant rates like 
nobody's asking for a $4.00, a 

1237
01:10:57,950 --> 01:11:00,670
word assignment like, you know, 
carry on Sex in the City. 

1238
01:11:00,670 --> 01:11:03,790
That's never going to happen. 
But like $2.00, a word for a 

1239
01:11:03,790 --> 01:11:05,630
print magazine, I used to get 
paid that. 

1240
01:11:06,310 --> 01:11:09,470
That's gone. 
Like it's impossible to get that

1241
01:11:09,470 --> 01:11:11,990
these days. 
But when you're writing a story,

1242
01:11:12,230 --> 01:11:16,910
what people forget is or what 
people sometimes don't know. 

1243
01:11:17,750 --> 01:11:19,550
Is. 
It's not just the words on the 

1244
01:11:19,550 --> 01:11:22,350
page. 
I'm not just, you know, taking 

1245
01:11:22,350 --> 01:11:26,270
words from my brain and putting 
them on a document online. 

1246
01:11:26,950 --> 01:11:29,470
I am finding the sources. 
I'm interviewing the sources. 

1247
01:11:29,470 --> 01:11:31,870
I'm calling in the products. 
I'm testing the products. 

1248
01:11:32,190 --> 01:11:33,990
I'm reading the scientific 
papers. 

1249
01:11:34,270 --> 01:11:36,750
I'm following up with the 
authors. 

1250
01:11:36,830 --> 01:11:41,790
I'm like chasing down those 
products from the PR people at 

1251
01:11:41,790 --> 01:11:44,310
different companies. 
Then I'm writing the story. 

1252
01:11:44,430 --> 01:11:48,140
Then I'm editing the story. 
If it has edits, you know, then 

1253
01:11:48,140 --> 01:11:49,860
I'm like following up for 
invoicing. 

1254
01:11:49,860 --> 01:11:54,460
There's so many administrative 
things that are not reflected 

1255
01:11:54,460 --> 01:11:57,580
in, you know, just the word 
count. 

1256
01:11:58,260 --> 01:12:02,980
And that I think is the hard 
part to advocate for it. 

1257
01:12:02,980 --> 01:12:06,740
Like you, I know, I know that 
editors know what goes into a 

1258
01:12:06,740 --> 01:12:11,060
story, and it's very hard to 
accept certain scenarios where 

1259
01:12:11,060 --> 01:12:14,420
you're just like, why are you 
not respecting my time? 

1260
01:12:15,110 --> 01:12:17,750
The time and expertise that goes
into doing something like this, 

1261
01:12:17,950 --> 01:12:20,590
you want to assign it to, you 
know, a 22 year old who has no 

1262
01:12:20,590 --> 01:12:24,710
editorial experience. 
OK, but you're going to end up 

1263
01:12:24,710 --> 01:12:26,430
doing a lot more work on your 
end. 

1264
01:12:26,470 --> 01:12:28,990
You're going to have to rewrite 
that story or you want to use 

1265
01:12:28,990 --> 01:12:30,110
AI? 
Great. 

1266
01:12:30,310 --> 01:12:31,670
You're going to have to rewrite 
that story. 

1267
01:12:31,670 --> 01:12:34,110
You're going to have to Fact 
Check every aspect of that 

1268
01:12:34,110 --> 01:12:36,910
story. 
When you hire a good writer and 

1269
01:12:36,910 --> 01:12:39,590
pay them fairly, it's making 
your job easier. 

1270
01:12:39,790 --> 01:12:42,510
So that's that's a hard thing I 
think right now to deal with. 

1271
01:12:45,020 --> 01:12:48,580
That's my Ted talk on 
freelancing and freelance rates 

1272
01:12:48,620 --> 01:12:50,820
right now. 
Clearly it gets me heated, but 

1273
01:12:52,660 --> 01:12:55,020
it's hard. 
It's a hard part of the industry

1274
01:12:55,020 --> 01:12:58,900
right now. 
Yeah, I it is certainly not the 

1275
01:12:58,900 --> 01:13:03,540
same in healthcare, but I 
certainly can feel you and you 

1276
01:13:03,540 --> 01:13:06,900
know you get paid to see a 
patient, but that rate doesn't 

1277
01:13:06,900 --> 01:13:09,780
include all the time you spend 
when the patient isn't there. 

1278
01:13:10,490 --> 01:13:14,530
Calling the doctor, doing your 
documentation, filling out extra

1279
01:13:14,530 --> 01:13:20,050
insurance paperwork and it seems
like across many industries 

1280
01:13:20,050 --> 01:13:25,330
people are being asked to do 
more for less pay and it is very

1281
01:13:25,330 --> 01:13:29,570
frustrating when you feel like 
what you have put so much time 

1282
01:13:29,570 --> 01:13:35,490
and effort into is continually 
being devalued by the people who

1283
01:13:35,610 --> 01:13:38,130
pay you. 
I feel like there's this idea 

1284
01:13:38,130 --> 01:13:41,460
that. 
Journalism or gear testing or 

1285
01:13:41,460 --> 01:13:45,540
writing for online is something 
that people do as a hobby now. 

1286
01:13:46,260 --> 01:13:47,860
And it's like, no, it's a real 
job. 

1287
01:13:48,540 --> 01:13:51,100
This is something that people 
studied and went to school for 

1288
01:13:51,100 --> 01:13:54,580
to develop those skills and 
have, you know, over a decade's 

1289
01:13:54,580 --> 01:13:59,220
worth 2 decades worth of 
experience doing and that all of

1290
01:13:59,220 --> 01:14:02,020
that goes into making them the 
writer that they are. 

1291
01:14:02,900 --> 01:14:07,020
It makes me sad to think of 
renowned publications. 

1292
01:14:07,610 --> 01:14:11,650
Using people who are doing this 
as a hobby or people who you 

1293
01:14:11,650 --> 01:14:14,810
know are retired now and just 
want to write about shoes for 

1294
01:14:14,810 --> 01:14:19,330
fun like and so they accept 
lower rates which then devalues 

1295
01:14:19,610 --> 01:14:23,130
everyone who is trying to make a
living and a career off of this 

1296
01:14:23,130 --> 01:14:26,970
and it just I don't know why 
that happened. 

1297
01:14:26,970 --> 01:14:31,330
That shift where it seems like 
this is like a fun hobby you can

1298
01:14:31,330 --> 01:14:34,810
do for like some extra cash like
no, I I went to school for this.

1299
01:14:35,090 --> 01:14:38,380
I studied this. 
I had big dreams about making 

1300
01:14:38,380 --> 01:14:40,780
this a career and it's just it 
gets harder and harder every 

1301
01:14:40,780 --> 01:14:45,340
year. 
So last topic, because we don't 

1302
01:14:45,340 --> 01:14:47,660
want to take up too much of your
time, Although I feel like we 

1303
01:14:47,660 --> 01:14:50,580
could talk to you for five hours
about various things. 

1304
01:14:52,100 --> 01:14:55,820
So let's talk about shoes. 
What are you running in right 

1305
01:14:55,820 --> 01:14:58,500
now? 
What are your favorites and what

1306
01:14:58,500 --> 01:15:01,380
are you gonna race New York in? 
Oh my God, so many things. 

1307
01:15:03,020 --> 01:15:05,460
My shoe collection is. 
Horrifying. 

1308
01:15:06,540 --> 01:15:11,860
It really warrants a whole room 
at this point and it stresses me

1309
01:15:11,860 --> 01:15:13,020
out. 
No judgment. 

1310
01:15:13,500 --> 01:15:16,260
Yeah, but that's what I need. 
I need like this wall. 

1311
01:15:16,260 --> 01:15:18,980
If this wasn't my like, living 
room wall, I would do that. 

1312
01:15:18,980 --> 01:15:21,140
I just don't want to look at 
shoes 24/7. 

1313
01:15:21,220 --> 01:15:24,020
Yes. 
What am I looking to like? 

1314
01:15:24,580 --> 01:15:26,740
Small town, Central Wisconsin? 
Yeah. 

1315
01:15:26,820 --> 01:15:27,980
See. 
You've got the square foot. 

1316
01:15:28,020 --> 01:15:29,860
Same as. 
Yeah, exactly. 

1317
01:15:30,100 --> 01:15:33,300
House costs. 
The same as like a studio apt a 

1318
01:15:33,300 --> 01:15:37,540
lot of other places. 
On the plus side, I have more 

1319
01:15:37,540 --> 01:15:39,660
than double the square footage 
than I had in New York. 

1320
01:15:39,660 --> 01:15:41,260
So we've we've moved up in the 
world. 

1321
01:15:42,060 --> 01:15:43,980
I can't even imagine what I 
would have done with my shoe 

1322
01:15:43,980 --> 01:15:45,820
collection there if I was still 
there. 

1323
01:15:46,660 --> 01:15:52,260
What am I loving right now? 
New York I think I'm running in 

1324
01:15:52,380 --> 01:15:59,240
the Hoka Rocket X2. 
I was not a big hookup person 

1325
01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:02,960
before this year, and the 
revamps that they've done have 

1326
01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:04,960
like finally gotten me on the 
bandwagon. 

1327
01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:08,960
Like the Rocket X2 just feels so
fast whenever I put it on. 

1328
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:11,120
I actually, the first run I did 
with a friend, we were like 10 

1329
01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:12,600
minutes in. 
I was like I could run a 

1330
01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:14,800
marathon on these. 
She was like, we've run a mile. 

1331
01:16:15,380 --> 01:16:17,740
And I was like, yeah, I know, 
but I can tell. 

1332
01:16:19,500 --> 01:16:23,300
So I'm really enjoying that for 
speed stuff and that will most 

1333
01:16:23,300 --> 01:16:27,220
likely be my marathon shoe. 
I also really liked their mock X

1334
01:16:27,260 --> 01:16:33,140
upgrade or update. 
I'm a big fan of carbon plates 

1335
01:16:33,140 --> 01:16:36,100
in everything, like put a carbon
plate in every shoe possible and

1336
01:16:36,100 --> 01:16:38,900
I would love it. 
I know that is not recommended 

1337
01:16:39,220 --> 01:16:43,560
and I'm trying to vary things. 
But let's see, what am I running

1338
01:16:43,560 --> 01:16:45,680
in Carbon right now? 
I really like the New Balance 

1339
01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:50,160
Super Comp trainer. 
I have to give the V2 a few more

1340
01:16:50,160 --> 01:16:52,400
runs. 
I feel like it got a little less

1341
01:16:52,400 --> 01:16:55,360
fast than the V1, which makes me
sad. 

1342
01:16:56,200 --> 01:17:01,960
But I love a high stack. 
I also like the Adidas Prime X 

1343
01:17:02,200 --> 01:17:06,920
I've been enjoying that one. 
That is a nice long run shoe for

1344
01:17:06,920 --> 01:17:11,000
me. 
I'm trying to think what else is

1345
01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:17,120
like top of my pile right now. 
So you live really high, like 50

1346
01:17:17,120 --> 01:17:18,720
millimeters. 
I'm like getting. 

1347
01:17:19,040 --> 01:17:24,040
As much, yes. 
I also I really like the Vapor 

1348
01:17:24,040 --> 01:17:28,600
Fly 3 update. 
I can't wait for an Alpha Fly 

1349
01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:31,240
three. 
I didn't love the Alpha Fly Two,

1350
01:17:31,480 --> 01:17:33,840
unfortunately. 
So I've been spending a lot more

1351
01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:36,520
time in the Vapor Fly. 
What else? 

1352
01:17:38,820 --> 01:17:40,820
I have some new ones that I 
can't talk about yet. 

1353
01:17:43,860 --> 01:17:46,380
I'm excited. 
I have the the Sakani Kinvara 

1354
01:17:46,380 --> 01:17:50,020
Pro en route and I'm like give 
it to me like get it here. 

1355
01:17:50,020 --> 01:17:52,500
Where is it? 
Because when I saw that at Teary

1356
01:17:52,500 --> 01:17:55,620
this year I was like that looks 
like something I will love 

1357
01:17:55,700 --> 01:17:56,900
running in. 
That's cool. 

1358
01:17:57,500 --> 01:18:01,300
But I recently tested a bunch of
trail shoes and so I feel like 

1359
01:18:01,300 --> 01:18:05,220
that's all like top of mind. 
I still have not found my go to 

1360
01:18:05,220 --> 01:18:07,780
trail shoe though. 
Which ones have you tried on the

1361
01:18:07,780 --> 01:18:09,830
trail? 
Oh my God, so many. 

1362
01:18:09,910 --> 01:18:13,870
I just tried the Nike Ultrafly, 
which I thought I would love. 

1363
01:18:14,510 --> 01:18:17,350
I didn't love the upper on that.
It felt a little like loose and 

1364
01:18:17,350 --> 01:18:23,070
flexible and I don't know, my 
ankles felt a little unstable in

1365
01:18:23,070 --> 01:18:24,790
it. 
So maybe not on technical 

1366
01:18:24,790 --> 01:18:27,510
trails, but other trails. 
I also really like the Nike 

1367
01:18:27,510 --> 01:18:33,910
Pegasus Trail, The four I think 
was the most recent update, and 

1368
01:18:33,910 --> 01:18:36,270
the Zagma Zagama, however you 
say that. 

1369
01:18:36,870 --> 01:18:42,230
Okay, those are two I liked. 
Man, it's hard when they're not 

1370
01:18:42,230 --> 01:18:44,430
like staring at you in the face.
Yes. 

1371
01:18:44,550 --> 01:18:46,470
Have you tried the Endorphin 
Edge? 

1372
01:18:46,750 --> 01:18:48,670
I haven't tried that one. 
I haven't tried any. 

1373
01:18:49,390 --> 01:18:54,270
The only one I tried was the 
Peregrine St. the softer one, 

1374
01:18:54,270 --> 01:18:56,430
and I actually did really like 
that. 

1375
01:18:57,030 --> 01:18:59,310
The lugs on that felt really 
good. 

1376
01:19:00,210 --> 01:19:03,370
I also really like the La 
Sportiva Cyclon for trail. 

1377
01:19:03,770 --> 01:19:07,090
I did A30K in that and just like
I don't know something about the

1378
01:19:07,330 --> 01:19:11,050
the like half Gator on it and 
the boa dials. 

1379
01:19:11,090 --> 01:19:13,370
It's really nice. 
I just tried the Speed lands for

1380
01:19:13,370 --> 01:19:16,690
the first time, didn't do like a
real run in them yet. 

1381
01:19:16,690 --> 01:19:18,890
So I still need some more time 
with them. 

1382
01:19:18,890 --> 01:19:22,530
But they were very comfortable 
and I really like the idea of 

1383
01:19:22,610 --> 01:19:27,050
like modular shoes and shoe. 
Personalization and 

1384
01:19:27,050 --> 01:19:29,050
customization, that's a story I 
would love to write for 

1385
01:19:29,050 --> 01:19:30,130
somebody. 
We'll see. 

1386
01:19:30,690 --> 01:19:35,290
But it's been interesting to see
how many brands are offering 

1387
01:19:35,890 --> 01:19:38,770
some kind of customization or 
personalization, whether it's 

1388
01:19:38,770 --> 01:19:43,010
like just the brand Hilma 
offering three different shapes 

1389
01:19:43,010 --> 01:19:46,810
for each shoe, or Speed Land, 
which lets you, you know, build 

1390
01:19:46,810 --> 01:19:48,610
the shoe exactly as you would 
want. 

1391
01:19:49,010 --> 01:19:53,850
So yeah, other stone. 
I need to open the closet. 

1392
01:19:54,860 --> 01:19:57,540
I wonder if the edge would be 
worth trying for you for trail. 

1393
01:19:57,540 --> 01:20:00,220
Just cuz you like high stack and
you like the carbon plate. 

1394
01:20:00,300 --> 01:20:03,460
It's got both of those sold, so 
I was. 

1395
01:20:03,500 --> 01:20:07,060
Thinking that for you too, Yeah.
Get the have to ask them for 

1396
01:20:07,060 --> 01:20:09,540
that. 
I I don't know the way I feel. 

1397
01:20:10,300 --> 01:20:12,740
I also I love all the Adidas 
carbon plated ones. 

1398
01:20:12,740 --> 01:20:18,100
The Jakumesan has like a like 
lower stack but snappy fast 

1399
01:20:18,100 --> 01:20:20,780
track shoe. 
I wear that one a lot and the 

1400
01:20:20,780 --> 01:20:23,180
audio is pro I've I've worn in 
marathons. 

1401
01:20:24,850 --> 01:20:30,410
I have also been trying to wear 
less carbon, so I've gone to the

1402
01:20:30,490 --> 01:20:36,290
New Balance More V4 as like a 
everyday trainer which has been 

1403
01:20:36,290 --> 01:20:40,770
really comfortable. 
Also the 1080 is great, one that

1404
01:20:40,770 --> 01:20:44,330
I was actually disappointed with
and I not to like trash anybody 

1405
01:20:44,610 --> 01:20:46,410
because I know other people 
really like this shoe. 

1406
01:20:46,610 --> 01:20:50,930
I was so excited about the 
Mizuno Wave Rebellion Pro. 

1407
01:20:51,810 --> 01:20:56,650
It looked so beautiful and like 
that big slab of foam and the 

1408
01:20:56,650 --> 01:20:59,490
rocker bottom, and it just 
didn't do it for me. 

1409
01:21:00,210 --> 01:21:01,530
So cool. 
Didn't work for me either. 

1410
01:21:01,650 --> 01:21:04,010
Yeah, it's so cool. 
Mine's right there. 

1411
01:21:04,330 --> 01:21:05,490
Yeah. 
Do you have the black and white 

1412
01:21:05,490 --> 01:21:06,970
one? 
I do. 

1413
01:21:07,090 --> 01:21:08,130
Yeah. 
It's beautiful. 

1414
01:21:08,130 --> 01:21:11,850
That's a beautiful shoe. 
Yeah, I'll probably wear it just

1415
01:21:11,850 --> 01:21:14,970
because it's pretty. 
The heel geometry was too much 

1416
01:21:14,970 --> 01:21:17,970
for me, just with how and where 
I land and yeah. 

1417
01:21:18,480 --> 01:21:20,800
Oh, I also forgot like all the 
A6 ones that I love, the 

1418
01:21:20,800 --> 01:21:25,560
Novoblast, the Super Blast and 
the the Meta Speed. 

1419
01:21:25,560 --> 01:21:30,840
I just ran Tokyo in the meta 
speed Piard, so you know, But 

1420
01:21:30,840 --> 01:21:34,080
the Super Blast has been a 
really nice option for longer 

1421
01:21:34,080 --> 01:21:38,840
runs to get that like super foam
feeling without a carbon plate. 

1422
01:21:39,080 --> 01:21:40,120
Because I just. 
I feel like I've been 

1423
01:21:40,120 --> 01:21:42,600
overstressing my legs with 
carbon a little bit lately. 

1424
01:21:43,720 --> 01:21:47,120
As my coach. 
So trying to vary it up a little

1425
01:21:47,120 --> 01:21:49,680
bit because like why wouldn't 
you want to wear super shoes all

1426
01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:51,480
the time? 
They make you feel incredible. 

1427
01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:54,800
If you want, there's a case 
series that just came out. 

1428
01:21:54,800 --> 01:21:57,400
If you want a reason to consider
not wearing super shoes. 

1429
01:21:58,280 --> 01:22:02,480
This is a case series, I think, 
published in JOSBT, which is the

1430
01:22:02,480 --> 01:22:05,200
journal of Orthopedic and Sport 
Physical Therapy. 

1431
01:22:05,200 --> 01:22:08,880
But it's a case series on five 
navicular stress fractures. 

1432
01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:12,740
I saw that with wearing wearing.
Super shoes. 

1433
01:22:12,740 --> 01:22:16,020
So that could help help your 
brain with that maybe, I don't 

1434
01:22:16,020 --> 01:22:18,300
know. 
My problems seem to be more in 

1435
01:22:18,300 --> 01:22:23,540
the like mine are more in the 
post tip area, so OK up the leg,

1436
01:22:23,580 --> 01:22:27,180
which I don't know is if it's 
like 100% related to carbon or 

1437
01:22:27,180 --> 01:22:30,060
just like upping my intensity on
the track or what because it's 

1438
01:22:30,060 --> 01:22:31,860
in my right leg. 
We'll see. 

1439
01:22:31,860 --> 01:22:33,980
I'm getting a needle tomorrow. 
We'll see what they say. 

1440
01:22:35,170 --> 01:22:37,090
What am I doing wrong at this 
point? 

1441
01:22:39,330 --> 01:22:41,410
Also to update us. 
Yes. 

1442
01:22:47,370 --> 01:22:43,130
And that's only. 
I also don't want to put like 

1443
01:22:43,570 --> 01:22:46,050
the goal of research is not to 
throw it out to scare people. 

1444
01:22:46,050 --> 01:22:49,930
So that was more of a joke. 55 
examples. 

1445
01:22:49,930 --> 01:22:53,810
So it's like, it's hard to, you 
know, there is some backlash to 

1446
01:22:53,810 --> 01:22:55,690
carbon play to choose. 
You shouldn't wear these all the

1447
01:22:55,690 --> 01:22:56,970
time. 
Like these should be meant for 

1448
01:22:56,970 --> 01:22:58,730
race day. 
And I'm like, I don't know. 

1449
01:22:58,730 --> 01:23:04,650
I'm not a fast runner, I mean. 
Relatively sure, but like I'm 

1450
01:23:04,650 --> 01:23:07,690
not an elite runner. 
I'm not running the paces that 

1451
01:23:07,690 --> 01:23:09,890
they studied the original Vapor 
Fly at. 

1452
01:23:09,890 --> 01:23:13,450
You know, I'm definitely not 
getting the same kind of speed 

1453
01:23:13,450 --> 01:23:18,170
benefit from carbon plated shoes
as a faster runner might, but 

1454
01:23:18,330 --> 01:23:21,690
what I found is that running, 
especially running long runs in 

1455
01:23:21,690 --> 01:23:26,730
a carbon plated shoe, my legs 
just feel like 99% of the time, 

1456
01:23:26,730 --> 01:23:29,830
except for right now. 
Way less beat up the next day. 

1457
01:23:30,030 --> 01:23:34,750
Like I was doing long runs and 
old alpha flies for the past 

1458
01:23:34,750 --> 01:23:38,470
like 2 years because they just 
like my legs just felt less beat

1459
01:23:38,470 --> 01:23:41,070
up and I felt like I could get 
back into my training faster. 

1460
01:23:41,070 --> 01:23:44,790
So I wasn't running faster but I
was feeling better overall. 

1461
01:23:45,070 --> 01:23:47,590
So I don't know, I think they 
affect everybody different. 

1462
01:23:47,630 --> 01:23:51,630
Obviously it depends on how you 
run and your speed and all that,

1463
01:23:51,630 --> 01:23:53,780
so. 
I just know you should alternate

1464
01:23:53,780 --> 01:23:55,860
your shoes and you shouldn't 
wear the same type of shoe all 

1465
01:23:55,860 --> 01:23:57,780
the time. 
And so, I mean, I literally 

1466
01:23:57,780 --> 01:24:02,820
alternate my shoes every single 
run, but trying to take some of 

1467
01:24:02,820 --> 01:24:05,740
the carbon out for now just to 
keep everything healthy. 

1468
01:24:07,740 --> 01:24:10,740
Well, and the key is when you do
start running into trouble to go

1469
01:24:10,740 --> 01:24:13,540
see somebody, which is that 
that's what you're doing 

1470
01:24:13,540 --> 01:24:14,740
tomorrow. 
So yes. 

1471
01:24:15,100 --> 01:24:18,660
I mean, I probably should have 
gone a couple weeks ago, but 

1472
01:24:18,660 --> 01:24:20,980
we're going now and so that's 
the important thing. 

1473
01:24:24,400 --> 01:24:27,280
Well, Ashley, thank you so much 
for joining us today. 

1474
01:24:27,280 --> 01:24:30,560
This has just been a really 
great conversation and like I 

1475
01:24:30,560 --> 01:24:32,960
said, I wish we had more time to
talk to you because I think we 

1476
01:24:32,960 --> 01:24:37,440
could talk about a lot more. 
We will throw in the show notes,

1477
01:24:37,440 --> 01:24:41,760
your website where people can 
find you on social media if they

1478
01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:44,160
want to sign up for your 
newsletter, which I am going to 

1479
01:24:44,160 --> 01:24:46,800
sign up for right after we get 
done recording here. 

1480
01:24:48,760 --> 01:24:50,960
Any closing thoughts from you, 
Ashley? 

1481
01:24:51,780 --> 01:24:54,220
No, this has been super fun. 
Like you said, I could keep 

1482
01:24:54,220 --> 01:24:56,460
talking to you guys for hours 
about this kind of stuff and 

1483
01:24:56,460 --> 01:24:57,900
hopefully we'll get a chance to 
do it again. 

1484
01:24:57,900 --> 01:25:00,620
All right. 
Well, thanks so much to our 

1485
01:25:00,620 --> 01:25:02,420
listeners. 
Thank you for listening. 

1486
01:25:02,580 --> 01:25:06,140
We love it when you leave us a 
review, leave us a comment in 

1487
01:25:06,140 --> 01:25:10,060
the show notes. 
We're on every social media, 

1488
01:25:10,060 --> 01:25:14,020
Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, 
Pinterest, I think. 

1489
01:25:14,020 --> 01:25:17,180
Thank you, Bach threads, 
Twitter. 

1490
01:25:17,180 --> 01:25:20,580
So you know where to find us and
we will see you next time.