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Many people think we're only 
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running, but that would be 
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team wide favorite. 
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compression socks she's tried 
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feeling too tight to suck. 
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Find your next pair at 
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Hello everybody and welcome to 
the Doctors Running Podcast 

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where we, a group of doctors to 
physical therapy, discuss the 

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art and science of running and 
the stuff that we put on our 

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feet. 
We have a fun table here today 

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at the Round Table we have Dr. 
David Sauce, Dr. Matthew Klein, 

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and I'm your host, Nathan Brown.
We're excited to be with you all

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catching up, talking about life 
a little bit. 

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We had a good subjective for you
because of all the life changes 

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that have been happening on our 
team this summer. 

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We want to hear a little bit 
about that from you. 

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And then we're going to be 
talking about Maximal trainers 

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and kind of brainstorming and 
working together to kind of kind

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of shop. 
What's the workshop? 

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That's the word I was looking 
for. 

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We're going to workshop our. 
Of what a Maximal Trainer really

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is, where does the scale get 
tipped into that? 

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And then we're gonna talk about 
the ones that would fall into 

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that definition and the ones 
that are out on the market and 

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talk about the differences 
between them and potential 

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implications for the runner. 
And we might also dip into a 

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little bit of conversation 
about. 

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Training in plated shoes, what 
we know about it, what we think 

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about it, if there's any 
research out on it, we're going 

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to dive into that as well. 
But let's start with our 

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subjective question for the day 
and we just want to hear from 

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you all. 
How do you balance? 

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Life, family, work and running. 
What are the things that you do 

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to keep those things in balance?
What keeps you on a healthy, 

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sustainable track? 
We want to hear tips and tricks 

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from you all, or things that 
haven't worked. 

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Sometimes we learn from the 
things that don't work just as 

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well, so in that vein. 
Matt, we want to start with you.

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You just had a baby. 
Tell us about what this 

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transition has been like into 
being a father and how again 

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that bring in how that impacts 
your balance with running and 

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things like that. 
We'd love to hear from you. 

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Yeah, I appreciate that. 
So Isabella's 80 client is 

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currently, as of this video, no 
14 ish days old. 

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I can't do math right now 
because I haven't slept in a 

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while. 
So that's I should clarify, I 

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was the one that didn't have the
baby. 

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It was my wife that had the 
baby, although I was there 

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supporting her through her 45 
hour labor with two active hour 

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active delivery. 
It was quite intense. 

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But yeah, outside of the biggest
thing I think is for those who 

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are well seasoned parents, you 
know, the first several weeks 

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you don't sleep much at all. 
So trying to balance that out, 

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I'm very lucky being a 
professor, that this happened 

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right as the semester ended. 
And so I take a bunch of paid 

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time off and then I've I've got 
two weeks where I can work, but 

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I'm working from home and my I'm
starting my second year, so a 

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lot of my content is already 
kind of ready. 

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I just got to refine it. 
So that's made that easier. 

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But not sleeping. 
Having to have a little one who 

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eats, poops and does that on 
like on the hour, sometimes more

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frequently. 
Having to constitute laundry. 

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Making sure I support my wife so
I, you know, kind of a support 

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staff right now because I can 
change diapers, but I can't 

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really breastfeed. 
I mean I tried. 

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Can't really breastfeed. 
I can't. 

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No, no, I tried. 
She doesn't like that. 

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No, I was trying to distract 
her. 

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You're like, hey, maybe I can 
fake her out. 

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She got really mad, so I guess 
don't do that. 

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She also doesn't like bottles. 
But yeah, just the not sleeping.

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Making sure I'm supporting my 
spouse has meant that I've had 

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to change even from like being 
in the hospital for 3-4 days 

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straight, modifying my running 
obviously. 

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So my wife was nice enough as 
she is a pro runner to go. 

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Hey, you know you need to get 
this. 

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So I took one day off from 
running and then she was like, 

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you're a little angsty, so go 
run. 

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So it's been as someone for the 
last several years who's run 

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twice a day. 
Most of the time it's been, 

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yeah, I'm not really worried 
about my mileage. 

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I'm just going to go out there 
for a run that started at 5 

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miles and it's slowly over the 
last two weeks, has built up to 

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7-8 with the occasional 10. 
But it's consolidating, going 

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all right, I'm going to talk 
with my wife. 

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Is it okay If I go for run, I'm 
going to have to keep it to like

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maybe somewhere from six, maybe 
8. 

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You know, it's kind of depends 
on her time. 

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So it's just being very flexible
is the key in going. 

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I'm not going to get a great 
workout every day. 

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Sometimes I'm just happy if I 
can get out the door and it's 

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just being flexible with that 
and because you never know 

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what's going to, what's going to
come up. 

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And luckily Isabelle has been 
very healthy thus far and that 

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we haven't had any issues. 
But yeah, you never know. 

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So, yeah, and obviously, yeah. 
We've talked to you a lot but 

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congratulations again on the on 
the new baby that's really it's 

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it's a pretty life changing 
thing. 

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Yeah. 
Really really is rocks your 

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world in a really cool way. 
So. 

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Congrats to you too, yeah. 
And then the other the other guy

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on here, David, got married. 
Tell us about kind of what 

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married life has been like for 
you and kind of, if anything, 

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what's changed or what hasn't 
changed? 

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Yeah. 
So I mean we've been together 

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six years now and we've lived 
together for three. 

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So it's been had, there hasn't 
been too much change, you know, 

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as far as post married life. 
Amber is going through the last 

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name changing process currently,
so that's a lot of things just 

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on that plate. 
Thankfully I don't have to do 

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any of that, so for me 
everything's been pretty much 

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the same, but we've been just 
doing our best to keep things 

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steady, keep the stress down. 
You know, the last few months 

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have been stressful and I 
probably wasn't wise to race so 

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close to the wedding, I feel 
like. 

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You know, it's just high stress 
environments, you know, 

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basically full time training, 
essentially full time working, 

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planning the wedding, getting 
everything going. 

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Like every free moment of time I
was emailing vendors or you 

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know, just figuring things out. 
And so it's actually been a 

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little bit more relaxing. 
I was just going to say. 

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Our weekends, Yeah, like we 
haven't. 

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Like I was just talking to her 
about this before coming on 

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where it's like. 
I mean, we have like chores and 

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stuff to do and catch up on, but
it hasn't been what it has been 

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the last few weekends, you know,
or for the last, like honestly, 

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months, you know, where it's 
just like every weekend it 

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slammed with something and 
trying to balance that between 

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the training, the working, I 
mean everything with doctors are

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running as well, right? 
Like, we're constantly writing 

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articles and reporting and doing
things. 

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And it was hilarious because I 
took a blood test right before. 

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And my cortisol was like through
the roof. 

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So hopefully it's a little bit 
lower now, but just trying to be

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mindful. 
I mean, we're talking about 

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balancing life and all of those 
things. 

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And it's kind of, I kind of felt
myself go over that tipping 

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point, you know, And I had a bad
race, you know, wedding was 

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great, you know, honeymoon was 
great. 

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Everything went solid. 
I took a week, a little over 

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like a week and a halfish off of
running and. 

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And it was nice. 
And then, but now I got to get 

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back on the train and ready for 
CIM and kind of hop back into it

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and going from like almost 
nothing, straight back into the 

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full schedule again was a little
bit of a rough transition there.

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But we're coming around and 
yeah, just trying to prioritize 

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schedule, make sure I'm 
sleeping. 

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That's probably the biggest 
thing is if I'm not sleeping and

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I keep spreading myself then 
things get hard so. 

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And I think a difference for you
and us is you are in a in a 

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stage of you're running. 
Journey and career that you are 

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trying to reach very high 
performance goals and get. 

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I don't know if you've said it 
out loud that you want a Olympic

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qualifier time trial whatever, I
don't. 

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I don't know if you've said that
out loud, but like you're you're

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in that world where you could, 
you couldn't take. 

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Marks a little fast, but OTQ 
would be. 

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Yeah, I think. 
I think you've got that and and 

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so that's a whole other part of,
you know? 

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Like the running for Matt and I 
can be that flexibility for you 

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with the goals that you're going
for. 

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There's a little less 
flexibility with what happens on

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the running side of things, and 
so that's a whole other part of 

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your life that you have to 
juggle. 

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I also have to say I had the 
privilege of going out to the 

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wedding and two takeaways. 
One is David is right, Santa 

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Barbara has the best tacos. 
I had like, the best Taco of my 

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life there. 
At Florida Maze or whatever. 

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Florida Maze. 
It was amazing. 

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So good. 
The second thing is that I hope 

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to talk about my kids the way 
that David's mom talks about. 

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Oh yeah, like your mom is in 
love with you to the end. 

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Like you could do no wrong. 
And I hope that I can support my

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kids the way that your mom 
supports you. 

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It was really sweet to hear her 
like toast in front of 

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everybody. 
She just adores you and we 

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definitely need a Molly shout 
out. 

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Shout out to David. 
Yes. 

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Yeah, I, Janna and I just were 
like, that's how we want to talk

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about our kids, you know? 
So we're that was one of our 

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favorite parts of the the 
wedding day and dancing, because

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that was obviously really fun. 
Yeah, you, you hit that dance 

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floor hard. 
Yeah, Nate gets down. 

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Y'all and I were very impressed.
Janna and one of Jan and my 

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favorite things to do in in life
is to go to weddings and dance 

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together. 
Like, it's our mission to, like,

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make friends on the dance floor.
And so, like, at your wedding. 

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00:09:56,450 --> 00:10:00,610
We met somebody who we kind of 
got close with by the end of the

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00:10:00,610 --> 00:10:03,690
night, So we accomplished our 
goal of like just getting down 

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with people and having a lot of 
fun. 

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00:10:05,010 --> 00:10:09,810
So dance floors are our passion 
for sure at weddings. 

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00:10:11,010 --> 00:10:12,530
Cool. 
Well, thanks you guys for 

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00:10:12,530 --> 00:10:18,090
updating us on your lives. 
But let's move into the main 

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segment of the night. 
So what we want to do now is we 

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00:10:20,770 --> 00:10:23,930
want to workshop what does it 
really mean for something to be 

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00:10:23,930 --> 00:10:25,850
categorized as a Maximal 
Trainer? 

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00:10:25,850 --> 00:10:27,610
And then we're gonna go into 
details from there. 

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00:10:27,610 --> 00:10:29,250
But let's just start it off 
What? 

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00:10:29,290 --> 00:10:32,330
What comes to your mind? 
When you think of Max Trainer, 

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what comes to your mind? 
I I think for me, I'd love to 

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00:10:36,450 --> 00:10:38,690
start this off because I am. 
I've been thinking about this 

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00:10:38,690 --> 00:10:41,450
for a while because in the past 
when we used to say Max trainer,

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we'd be like oh these couple 
shoes that have attained the 

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00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,000
like 30 they're in the 30 
millimeters for stack height 

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00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:52,720
that's now like moderate right. 
So to me I think of hey these 

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shoes are get are at 40 
millimeters or going beyond is 

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where my brain is going. 
And it's not just these very 

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00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,480
specific carbon plated super 
foam shoes. 

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00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:07,180
There's several quote UN quote 
inline daily trainers that have 

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00:11:07,180 --> 00:11:09,780
now done the same thing. 
So I think there's a line that's

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00:11:09,780 --> 00:11:13,100
getting blurred where we used to
have this separate category and 

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now it's like well the normal 
stuff is doing that now. 

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So I think it's a little 
challenging to go. 

225
00:11:19,380 --> 00:11:22,300
Are we defining a specific like 
the carbon plated super foam 

226
00:11:22,300 --> 00:11:24,340
stuff or just defining this by 
stack high? 

227
00:11:24,340 --> 00:11:26,020
I think we have to talk about 
that too. 

228
00:11:26,820 --> 00:11:29,100
I agree with that thought 
because I think what? 

229
00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,400
Ends up becoming the entity that
defines something as maximal. 

230
00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,960
Like is it you know, is it media
companies or reviewers like us 

231
00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,280
and other review like groups 
calling something maximal? 

232
00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,960
Or is it like the couple studies
that come out that say the 

233
00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,240
difference is between minimal 
and maximal footwear, and like 

234
00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,720
the definition of maximal in 
that group which would be more 

235
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,200
of that traditional trainer like
30 millimeters? 

236
00:11:51,470 --> 00:11:55,270
So yeah, where does that, you 
know, cuz that's where we look 

237
00:11:55,270 --> 00:11:59,190
at this is the effect of a 
quote, maximal trainer on a 

238
00:11:59,190 --> 00:12:01,710
body. 
The studies don't include these 

239
00:12:01,710 --> 00:12:05,950
40 plus yet they're including 
thirty like our normal training 

240
00:12:06,150 --> 00:12:08,310
like drops and stuffs or stack 
heights. 

241
00:12:08,710 --> 00:12:09,990
Yeah, yeah. 
David, what you got? 

242
00:12:10,270 --> 00:12:13,310
I think it can also be company 
dependent as well, like when I 

243
00:12:13,310 --> 00:12:16,670
take a look at what it means to 
be a maximum stack height shoe, 

244
00:12:17,110 --> 00:12:19,790
I almost think of it similar to 
how I think of the ultra 

245
00:12:19,790 --> 00:12:22,230
marathon. 
And an ultra can be anything 

246
00:12:22,230 --> 00:12:25,390
from 27 miles up to 100 plus, 
right? 

247
00:12:25,750 --> 00:12:29,750
200 and 300, yeah. 
Two, yeah, 240, what is it? 

248
00:12:29,750 --> 00:12:33,230
Moab is, yeah, two, but yeah, 
yeah. 

249
00:12:33,230 --> 00:12:35,790
So, but I think of it in that 
way because there's some 

250
00:12:35,790 --> 00:12:38,030
companies where they 
traditionally do stay a little 

251
00:12:38,030 --> 00:12:41,430
bit lower. 
So like their Max cushion or Max

252
00:12:41,430 --> 00:12:44,430
stack offering, it is their Max 
stack offering. 

253
00:12:44,430 --> 00:12:47,070
It just might not be 45 
millimeters or something that 

254
00:12:47,230 --> 00:12:50,980
another company offers. 
So, but with that said, I feel 

255
00:12:50,980 --> 00:12:54,580
like it almost always does land 
right around that 40 millimeter 

256
00:12:54,580 --> 00:12:56,620
mark. 
That does seem to be kind of the

257
00:12:56,620 --> 00:12:59,780
common number a lot of the 
companies now you just held up 

258
00:12:59,780 --> 00:13:04,180
the Ghost Max was 43, right? 
And that's a good question. 

259
00:13:04,590 --> 00:13:06,750
What was the? 
We'll go to Stats and Intel on 

260
00:13:06,750 --> 00:13:07,470
that. 
We'll get it. 

261
00:13:07,510 --> 00:13:09,150
Yeah, yeah. 
Yeah, We'll get that later. 

262
00:13:09,150 --> 00:13:13,790
But like the Nimbus was over 40.
Yeah, Yeah, our trainer was over

263
00:13:13,790 --> 00:13:15,030
40. 
Now it's at 40. 

264
00:13:15,230 --> 00:13:17,310
Yeah. 
But yeah, a lot of these 

265
00:13:17,310 --> 00:13:19,110
companies really leaning into 
it, right? 

266
00:13:19,110 --> 00:13:21,110
And that's crazy for something 
like the Nimbus has been around 

267
00:13:21,110 --> 00:13:23,230
for so long ago. 
All right, now the standard is 

268
00:13:23,230 --> 00:13:24,910
above 40. 
We're like, this is a 

269
00:13:25,030 --> 00:13:27,470
traditional daily trainer. 
At least it was. 

270
00:13:27,470 --> 00:13:31,230
So anyway, not to interrupt, but
yeah, I agree. 

271
00:13:31,790 --> 00:13:35,770
Nathan, what do you think? 
Yeah, I I think, I think I'm 

272
00:13:35,770 --> 00:13:38,170
torn. 
I think that there's a level of,

273
00:13:39,330 --> 00:13:41,970
I think there's definitely a 
level of relativity here where 

274
00:13:42,450 --> 00:13:46,530
maximal has always been a, at 
least in like the like anybody's

275
00:13:46,530 --> 00:13:49,170
mind is you're not if you're 
not, like if you're not. 

276
00:13:49,170 --> 00:13:51,930
Diving into the literature, 
maximal is defined by what you 

277
00:13:51,930 --> 00:13:55,650
think is big. 
So these shoes that used to be 

278
00:13:55,650 --> 00:13:58,850
just what we see as typical now,
everything sits in what was 

279
00:13:58,850 --> 00:14:02,540
maximal 10 years ago. 
And so I think there's a lot of 

280
00:14:02,540 --> 00:14:05,740
relativity kind of like what 
what David, what you were saying

281
00:14:06,620 --> 00:14:10,500
with especially even within 
companies, Topo's maximal shoe 

282
00:14:10,780 --> 00:14:13,180
might be different than ASICS 
maximal shoe. 

283
00:14:13,420 --> 00:14:16,500
And before we had the Nimbus 25 
and before we had the Super 

284
00:14:16,500 --> 00:14:19,540
blast, you know, did ASICS have 
a maximal? 

285
00:14:19,950 --> 00:14:23,350
Stack height shoe like because 
their Nimbus was in the mid 30s 

286
00:14:23,350 --> 00:14:25,750
or a little bit less even and 
that would have been their most 

287
00:14:25,750 --> 00:14:27,670
cushioned shoe. 
Do they even have a Max stack 

288
00:14:27,670 --> 00:14:29,870
shoe? 
We do have information from 

289
00:14:29,870 --> 00:14:33,550
stats and Intel that the Ghost 
Max stack heights are 39 in the 

290
00:14:33,550 --> 00:14:36,390
heel 33 in the four foot. 
Thanks stats and info. 

291
00:14:36,950 --> 00:14:39,510
Stats and info is really a BJ or
or Casper. 

292
00:14:40,030 --> 00:14:41,270
That's. 
Very curious, yeah. 

293
00:14:42,190 --> 00:14:45,110
We got to think of a fun way to 
refer to him, anyway. 

294
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:47,920
So I think that there is a level
of relativity. 

295
00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:52,480
I also think that there has to 
be because why do we care about 

296
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,160
if something is maximally 
stacked or not. 

297
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,680
And I think it's a combination 
of runner experience and what do

298
00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,400
we know about the impact on the 
body. 

299
00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,240
And there are changes. 
We've we've seen a number of 

300
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:04,640
studies, they've kind of all 
shown slightly different things,

301
00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,680
but there are differences on the
forces that go through the body 

302
00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:10,920
when you do have more cushioning
and versus less. 

303
00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:15,440
And so I think it does matter on
a numbers level, but numbers of 

304
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:16,040
stack. 
Right. 

305
00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:20,720
It's not the only factor because
there's also foam type and how 

306
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:22,200
you know how compliant that foam
is. 

307
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:23,960
What's the resilience? 
What's your rocker like? 

308
00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,480
There's too many factors that 
play into the impact of a shoe 

309
00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,880
on the body. 
Where Max maximal cushioning is,

310
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,160
is so many parts, there's so 
many moving parts. 

311
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,640
So that's just a couple of my 
initial thoughts. 

312
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,400
I was right about to say 
materials do play a huge role 

313
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,440
too in the footwear experience. 
So. 

314
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,400
It's like if you have a really 
firm foam and it's at 35, 

315
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,040
sometimes it doesn't feel that 
high and you have a really 

316
00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,720
compliant foam at 35 and you 
think you're about to fall off 

317
00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,000
the platform. 
So it just depends on how they 

318
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,800
build the shoe and other things 
as well. 

319
00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,440
I was, I was going to say that I
feel like when you start getting

320
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,280
this high and this is actually 
what I'm going to talk about in 

321
00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:05,560
our Stinson 7 review is when you
do get that high, well not 

322
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,480
everybody does this. 
There are some kind of 

323
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:09,240
requirements to make sure this 
shoe works. 

324
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,990
Like you have to have a rocker 
if the shoe is that tall because

325
00:16:12,990 --> 00:16:14,710
the the foam's not going to 
flex. 

326
00:16:14,710 --> 00:16:19,590
There's been a couple of shoes 
like the the sketchers, the Max 

327
00:16:19,590 --> 00:16:23,830
Rd. at least the the old one 
used to be taller but have these

328
00:16:23,830 --> 00:16:27,270
very deep flex screws, but they 
don't do that anymore and 

329
00:16:27,270 --> 00:16:30,910
they've gotten even taller and 
you get that that high, right? 

330
00:16:30,910 --> 00:16:34,830
If you have deep flex screws, 
now you're super unstable, so 

331
00:16:34,830 --> 00:16:37,830
you kind of need that stiff 
rocker soul to make this work. 

332
00:16:38,450 --> 00:16:40,450
I was going to say that seems to
be a requirement, but then I 

333
00:16:40,450 --> 00:16:43,210
realized that not everybody does
that and I can definitely make a

334
00:16:43,210 --> 00:16:47,890
breaker shoe because yeah, the 
taller you get that things don't

335
00:16:47,890 --> 00:16:49,930
really flex the same way, so 
you're going to have to create 

336
00:16:49,930 --> 00:16:51,850
artificial mechanism to get that
roll for it. 

337
00:16:51,850 --> 00:16:55,970
So you do need the rocker, but I
guess not everybody does it 100%

338
00:16:55,970 --> 00:16:58,490
well. 
So I was in a not completely 

339
00:16:58,490 --> 00:17:01,730
right statement on my part. 
Do we think that a maximally 

340
00:17:01,730 --> 00:17:05,490
stacked or sorry I shouldn't say
maximally stacked, a maximally 

341
00:17:05,490 --> 00:17:09,359
cushioned shoe? 
Does it, does it require 

342
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,280
softness or I think about like I
don't think so. 

343
00:17:13,319 --> 00:17:15,960
I think about the shift would be
an example that would be, you 

344
00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:21,040
know, I think that's a 3935 
stack, but it's a firmer foam 

345
00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:26,079
and just kind of does that fit 
in the maximal cushioning 

346
00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:28,560
category? 
Yeah, I mean I think if like the

347
00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,160
CRAFT CTM Ultra as well and 
yeah, that's a. 

348
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,640
Couple other shoes where it's 
like there's plenty of cushion 

349
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,260
under foot, it's just not soft. 
I would agree it doesn't have to

350
00:17:38,260 --> 00:17:40,540
be soft. 
I think you can still provide a 

351
00:17:40,540 --> 00:17:44,940
high level of protection and 
have a firmer midsole and that 

352
00:17:44,940 --> 00:17:48,900
happens all the time. 
But the regardless of this level

353
00:17:48,900 --> 00:17:52,260
of softness, so you're still the
leg is now it become an extended

354
00:17:52,260 --> 00:17:55,220
lever arm. 
So that is going to change how 

355
00:17:55,460 --> 00:17:59,020
how different torques happen 
throughout the joints up above 

356
00:17:59,020 --> 00:18:04,090
it will start to shift forces up
higher, but the softness I think

357
00:18:04,090 --> 00:18:07,210
is a is a different very or the 
compliance is a different 

358
00:18:07,810 --> 00:18:09,210
variable. 
Yeah. 

359
00:18:09,210 --> 00:18:13,290
And and we talked with sockety 
recently and you know the the 

360
00:18:13,290 --> 00:18:17,250
difference in compliance is that
one factor and then how each of 

361
00:18:17,250 --> 00:18:21,050
us strikes the ground changes 
how that formed, how the foam 

362
00:18:21,050 --> 00:18:23,890
deforms under our foot. 
So if one of us strikes and has 

363
00:18:23,890 --> 00:18:27,610
a very high velocity of 
compression of the foam, that 

364
00:18:27,610 --> 00:18:29,610
would have a different. 
The foam itself would have a 

365
00:18:29,610 --> 00:18:30,850
different reaction than if 
somebody more. 

366
00:18:30,970 --> 00:18:33,090
Gradually compresses it 
depending on your striking 

367
00:18:33,090 --> 00:18:35,610
mechanics, right. 
So then what is compliance 

368
00:18:35,610 --> 00:18:39,410
really mean unless it's placed 
in function underneath 

369
00:18:39,410 --> 00:18:42,130
somebody's body. 
But I do think there's a couple 

370
00:18:42,130 --> 00:18:45,330
pieces that we've circled around
that we do have some research 

371
00:18:45,330 --> 00:18:47,570
towards. 
One of them is the impact of 

372
00:18:47,570 --> 00:18:49,490
compliance and how soft a foam 
is. 

373
00:18:50,810 --> 00:18:52,570
That's kind of soft is more 
subjective. 

374
00:18:52,570 --> 00:18:54,090
Compliance is more measurable. 
But. 

375
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,680
Kind of higher to help people 
understand what we're talking. 

376
00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:59,960
About, Yeah. 
It's like how much it compresses

377
00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:01,280
and. 
Yes. 

378
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,080
But the idea is here that we've 
talked about one of them being 

379
00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,040
the impact of a more compliant 
foam on mechanics, and then the 

380
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,640
other one is rockers on 
mechanics. 

381
00:19:13,190 --> 00:19:18,030
Those two things do have changes
to our bodies and and have been 

382
00:19:18,030 --> 00:19:21,430
shown to change forces as well. 
So I think about the study that 

383
00:19:21,430 --> 00:19:25,950
looked at maximized stack shoes 
versus those, who those that 

384
00:19:25,950 --> 00:19:28,110
were not and so they were using 
an Adidas shoe. 

385
00:19:28,110 --> 00:19:30,510
I can't remember it's been too 
long since I've run this study, 

386
00:19:30,510 --> 00:19:31,990
so I'm sorry that I'm butchering
this. 

387
00:19:32,390 --> 00:19:37,550
But but they did find less 
impact forces in the shoe that 

388
00:19:37,550 --> 00:19:40,030
had the cushioning in that that 
came through the rest of the 

389
00:19:40,030 --> 00:19:42,110
body, which I think is which I 
think is an important 

390
00:19:42,110 --> 00:19:45,790
distinction that. 
Even that shoe which was not a 

391
00:19:45,790 --> 00:19:51,470
40 plus had the changes compared
to like a 15 and below stacked 

392
00:19:51,470 --> 00:19:54,230
shoe. 
So and that didn't have that was

393
00:19:54,230 --> 00:19:58,110
a standard Eva foam that was not
some fancy peebacks anything 

394
00:19:58,110 --> 00:20:00,630
like that. 
And then we also know rockers 

395
00:20:00,630 --> 00:20:04,050
have a have a. 
An impact as well or you have 

396
00:20:04,050 --> 00:20:07,970
shift of forces away from you 
have decrease in planner forces,

397
00:20:08,130 --> 00:20:12,530
so then you have decreased calf 
demand, increased demand up at 

398
00:20:12,530 --> 00:20:14,450
the knee and the hip. 
And then the other one I wanted 

399
00:20:14,450 --> 00:20:17,050
to mention was the softer more 
compliant foams lead to 

400
00:20:17,050 --> 00:20:20,050
reflexive stiffening of the 
joints up above. 

401
00:20:20,050 --> 00:20:23,400
So running on something super 
soft, you have this reflexive 

402
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,560
stiffening in your your joints 
like you're just to stabilize 

403
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:28,840
everything. 
So we know there's changes. 

404
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,640
What's the threshold at which 
those things happen? 

405
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,160
I don't think we know. 
I think that's going to be too 

406
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,200
individual, right? 
Like we've seen these things, 

407
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,880
but people need to realize that 
these are averages, right. 

408
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,600
There are going to be exceptions
to these rules, like when A 

409
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:43,800
great example of this and this 
hasn't really been. 

410
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,160
This is more anecdotal, but this
goes to the like we know. 

411
00:20:48,490 --> 00:20:51,450
That different people respond 
better to different levels of 

412
00:20:51,450 --> 00:20:55,650
stiffness in a shoe. 
So the stiffer shoe is often 

413
00:20:55,650 --> 00:20:58,570
times the more like if you go 
beyond that level, your planet 

414
00:20:58,570 --> 00:21:00,210
flexors and a lot of your 
muscles are going to have to 

415
00:21:00,210 --> 00:21:02,250
work harder to get over that 
shoe, right? 

416
00:21:03,210 --> 00:21:06,010
The kind of the IT goes to the 
opposite or if it's too 

417
00:21:06,010 --> 00:21:08,610
flexible, you're still going to 
have to work really hard to get 

418
00:21:08,610 --> 00:21:11,450
over that thing. 
So it's a balance if that rocker

419
00:21:11,450 --> 00:21:13,890
isn't set up correctly. 
We know know this from the 

420
00:21:13,890 --> 00:21:16,070
evidence. 
That will create a more stiff 

421
00:21:16,070 --> 00:21:17,870
shoe because you're it's the 
rocker. 

422
00:21:17,870 --> 00:21:19,990
A lot of that has to be based 
around not only the different 

423
00:21:19,990 --> 00:21:23,390
ankle rockers of your foot, but 
also wear that first metatarsal 

424
00:21:23,390 --> 00:21:26,630
phalangeal joint, that big, that
toe joint, it it's got to line 

425
00:21:26,630 --> 00:21:27,750
up. 
If it doesn't line up, it's 

426
00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:31,710
going to feel really stiff. 
So again, it's going to be, it's

427
00:21:31,710 --> 00:21:33,230
going to be variable depending 
on the person. 

428
00:21:33,230 --> 00:21:37,470
Some people we know like softer 
shoes, some people we know like 

429
00:21:37,790 --> 00:21:39,510
stiffer shoes. 
So I think it's that you're 

430
00:21:39,510 --> 00:21:40,670
right. 
I don't think we're going to be 

431
00:21:40,670 --> 00:21:43,780
able to find that that. 
Exact thing for everyone. 

432
00:21:44,060 --> 00:21:46,060
But that goes into what we 
always talk about, that shoes 

433
00:21:46,060 --> 00:21:48,060
are tools, that each person's 
going to be totally different. 

434
00:21:48,060 --> 00:21:51,020
There's no such thing as a best 
shoe for everyone. 

435
00:21:51,260 --> 00:21:54,100
It's trying to find, hey, you 
got to put some work into this. 

436
00:21:54,100 --> 00:21:56,820
You're going to have to find out
what works for you, what you 

437
00:21:56,820 --> 00:22:00,180
like, and then you can go from 
there, which is really hard 

438
00:22:00,180 --> 00:22:02,940
because we're talking about like
everybody likes the randomized 

439
00:22:02,940 --> 00:22:04,860
control trials, the really big 
studies. 

440
00:22:05,100 --> 00:22:07,580
But unfortunately you only get 
an average of the population 

441
00:22:07,580 --> 00:22:09,380
from that. 
And that's where the small case 

442
00:22:09,380 --> 00:22:11,660
studies are really beautiful, 
because that helps you see. 

443
00:22:12,130 --> 00:22:15,970
The more individual component of
a lot of the of of experience 

444
00:22:15,970 --> 00:22:18,210
and stuff like that. 
Like I'm a quantitative person, 

445
00:22:18,450 --> 00:22:21,050
I like data. 
All power to Nathan who's done 

446
00:22:21,050 --> 00:22:24,570
some qualitative stuff that does
not like I get doing a 

447
00:22:24,570 --> 00:22:27,610
subjective exam and like, but 
for like doing that as research 

448
00:22:27,930 --> 00:22:31,050
still doesn't make sense to me. 
That's a strong rules here. 

449
00:22:31,170 --> 00:22:33,410
That's strong language that I've
done some of that stuff. 

450
00:22:33,890 --> 00:22:35,890
I am planning to do some of that
stuff. 

451
00:22:42,490 --> 00:22:44,450
I will still say all power to 
you. 

452
00:22:35,890 --> 00:22:37,770
OK, got it. 
I've done nothing with 

453
00:22:37,770 --> 00:22:40,530
qualitative research though. 
That is what I am learning and 

454
00:22:40,530 --> 00:22:45,450
what I plan to do for my. 
Thank you. 

455
00:22:45,450 --> 00:22:47,490
I'm like, where are the rules? 
I don't understand that. 

456
00:22:47,610 --> 00:22:50,730
Oh no, there are rules here. 
I'm like, where it's great, it's

457
00:22:50,810 --> 00:22:52,690
equally important. 
It's equally important. 

458
00:22:52,930 --> 00:22:55,770
So here's a case study for you, 
for y'all and tell me how you 

459
00:22:55,770 --> 00:22:58,690
process through this. 
So these are not specifically 

460
00:22:58,690 --> 00:23:03,650
trainers, but you have, let's 
take the let's take an Adidas to

461
00:23:03,650 --> 00:23:10,010
ADI these shoes, you have the 
Adidas Audi 0 Pro 3 and you have

462
00:23:10,010 --> 00:23:24,650
the Takumisen 9. 
Different plates, different 

463
00:23:24,650 --> 00:23:14,890
plates. 
Is the Takumisen are they both 

464
00:23:14,890 --> 00:23:18,650
maximally, you know, cushioned? 
Is only one of them maximally 

465
00:23:18,650 --> 00:23:20,730
cushioned? 
They have the same foam, same 

466
00:23:20,730 --> 00:23:22,570
plates. 
The big difference is going to 

467
00:23:22,570 --> 00:23:25,690
be stack. 
Offensive. 

468
00:23:25,770 --> 00:23:27,770
And I got that wrong. 
So sorry, but we have. 

469
00:23:27,770 --> 00:23:29,690
Different rods but different 
materials. 

470
00:23:30,050 --> 00:23:32,370
Different rockers, flatter 
geometry, different shoes 

471
00:23:32,370 --> 00:23:33,650
entirely. 
But yes, I see where we're 

472
00:23:33,650 --> 00:23:34,650
going. 
Continue. 

473
00:23:34,890 --> 00:23:38,570
Be nice to Nathan. 
This is a good no. 

474
00:23:38,690 --> 00:23:40,010
I love. 
I love this weekend. 

475
00:23:42,690 --> 00:23:45,450
I need you to keep me straight. 
So can we make it before you 

476
00:23:45,450 --> 00:23:48,050
guys start to give each other a 
hard time, 23 minutes. 

477
00:23:48,770 --> 00:23:52,450
So we have those two shoes. 
Are they both maximally stacked?

478
00:23:52,450 --> 00:23:54,130
Is one of them maximally 
stacked? 

479
00:23:54,450 --> 00:23:56,250
Or are neither of them maximally
stacked? 

480
00:23:56,810 --> 00:23:58,570
What do you got? 
I would say they're both 

481
00:23:58,570 --> 00:24:00,730
stacked. 
I would. 

482
00:24:01,910 --> 00:24:05,510
There was there was a dude that 
ran like a 208 marathon in the 

483
00:24:05,510 --> 00:24:08,950
Adidas Tekumi Sen like, so does 
that long ago? 

484
00:24:08,990 --> 00:24:12,790
Does running fast to shoe mean 
that it does that define it as 

485
00:24:12,790 --> 00:24:15,990
maximally stacked then? 
No, but like people have run 

486
00:24:15,990 --> 00:24:19,150
marathons and flat shoes, but 
it's 33 millimeters. 

487
00:24:19,150 --> 00:24:22,030
We were talking about materials 
like that's it's 33, right? 

488
00:24:22,030 --> 00:24:25,830
I'm pretty darn sure 33 
millimeters of stack of Light 

489
00:24:25,830 --> 00:24:29,350
Strike Pro, which is already a 
very compliant, very soft foam. 

490
00:24:30,420 --> 00:24:33,140
It's not rockered. 
It's not like the other shoes 

491
00:24:33,140 --> 00:24:36,780
where you have this like super 
high up, like rounded surface 

492
00:24:36,780 --> 00:24:38,900
with a really stiff plate that 
you're kind of just rolling 

493
00:24:38,900 --> 00:24:41,940
forward the whole time. 
It definitely has more flex to 

494
00:24:41,940 --> 00:24:44,140
the front of it with the rods 
being a little bit more 

495
00:24:44,140 --> 00:24:46,180
flexible. 
It's definitely a flatter 

496
00:24:46,180 --> 00:24:49,700
geometry, but it's still, it's 
still very cushioned. 

497
00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:52,260
I mean, I've run 15 plus mile 
runs in that shoe fine. 

498
00:24:52,820 --> 00:24:55,100
Matt, what do you think? 
I'm going to take the opposite 

499
00:24:55,300 --> 00:24:58,460
of this where I will agree that 
the Shakumi Sen, as someone who 

500
00:24:58,460 --> 00:25:00,980
loves the Shakumi Sen, is 
running every single version of 

501
00:25:00,980 --> 00:25:05,260
it, that it is far higher stack 
height than it was right back in

502
00:25:05,260 --> 00:25:07,340
the day. 
I still have a pair of 1 and 

503
00:25:07,340 --> 00:25:10,500
twos. 
Oh that's gloriously hold it 

504
00:25:10,500 --> 00:25:14,820
cool and had several of the 
pairs that I did 20 mile runs in

505
00:25:14,820 --> 00:25:17,060
back in the day, which I don't 
think I could ever do again. 

506
00:25:18,540 --> 00:25:25,010
But yes, it's taller. 
Now, but I think it's not quite 

507
00:25:25,010 --> 00:25:28,330
getting all the maximalist boxes
that I would want. 

508
00:25:28,330 --> 00:25:32,610
Whereas the Adios Pro 3, that's 
definitely a maximal super shoe.

509
00:25:32,850 --> 00:25:36,290
It's got the foam, it's got the 
geometry, it's got the rods, not

510
00:25:36,290 --> 00:25:38,930
plates, but it's still in my 
mind got a fairly stiff 

511
00:25:39,250 --> 00:25:43,130
stiffening agent, right? 
So I would, I would give that 

512
00:25:43,130 --> 00:25:46,770
one the maximum 1 the Jakumi Sen
I think relatively now. 

513
00:25:47,620 --> 00:25:51,020
Is not that full level maximal 
shoe? 

514
00:25:51,060 --> 00:25:53,940
At least not it's not being 
advertised as such, but I'd also

515
00:25:53,940 --> 00:25:57,260
say the the increased 
flexibility, the more moderate 

516
00:25:57,260 --> 00:26:02,260
stack height. 
Now I would say no, but I think 

517
00:26:02,260 --> 00:26:04,580
you could still run long 
distances in it. 

518
00:26:04,580 --> 00:26:06,700
But just because you could run 
long distances and it doesn't 

519
00:26:06,820 --> 00:26:10,180
make it maximalist or not, I 
think it's more you. 

520
00:26:10,940 --> 00:26:13,540
There is something really 
interesting you said, you said 

521
00:26:13,540 --> 00:26:16,200
because of the stiffening agent.
It's not. 

522
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,720
Does it have to have a 
stiffening agent to be a maximal

523
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,520
shoe? 
No, but I think I was talking 

524
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,400
about race like super shoes and 
racing flats, so. 

525
00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:26,880
Cuz the question is it a maximal
shoe? 

526
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,200
Yeah, maximal shoes. 
I'm not not a that's. 

527
00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:33,360
Completely race aside, very 
racing side, Okay, that's very 

528
00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:34,800
fair. 
Then I'm gonna say. 

529
00:26:35,130 --> 00:26:37,330
Just because it says 5K10K 
doesn't mean. 

530
00:26:37,490 --> 00:26:40,290
No, I get it. 
But I would say it's not close. 

531
00:26:40,290 --> 00:26:42,610
It is. 
It's taller than it used to be, 

532
00:26:42,930 --> 00:26:45,930
but there's plenty of normal 
stack high daily trainers at 

533
00:26:45,930 --> 00:26:49,210
that same level now. 
So I would say yes it's more 

534
00:26:49,210 --> 00:26:53,010
maximal than it was in the in 
the in the past, but by today's 

535
00:26:53,010 --> 00:26:59,370
standards no, because you're not
getting that like fortyish so. 

536
00:26:59,370 --> 00:27:02,770
I would say I feel like it's 
more cushioned than say the 

537
00:27:02,770 --> 00:27:05,360
Craft CTM. 
That's fair. 

538
00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:07,160
But I thought we were talking 
like Max's. 

539
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:08,920
We're talking cushioning though,
right? 

540
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,400
You can have different 
cushioning properties. 

541
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,480
I mean. 
But the Craftsy is 4040 

542
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,240
millimeters 30. 
Right. 

543
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,520
So like if if I mean this is 
completely subjective, but like 

544
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,560
if I feel like if there's a 
little bit more cushioning or 

545
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,120
like a softer experience or just
a more protective experience in 

546
00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:29,440
Takumi than doing the craft, and
the craft is a maximal shoe, why

547
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,000
can't the tekumi be a maximal 
shoe? 

548
00:27:31,420 --> 00:27:33,820
My argument would be, again, 
because the cushioning is 

549
00:27:33,820 --> 00:27:38,060
subjective, somebody might have 
a very different feel with that.

550
00:27:38,100 --> 00:27:41,340
So like someone like me, I 
compress the heck out of foam. 

551
00:27:41,340 --> 00:27:45,220
So for me, I can still feel some
of the firmness like, but 

552
00:27:45,220 --> 00:27:48,900
there's still a little bit more 
like mid soul that I can feel 

553
00:27:48,900 --> 00:27:54,400
underneath the. 
The Kraft shoe, the Chikumi Sen 

554
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,760
You guys know how hard I land. 
Like you can hear me from David,

555
00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,760
can hear me run from Santa 
Barbara. 

556
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,920
He's like, oh, Matt's finally 
going out for his run, right? 

557
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,200
I can hear the thud, but I can. 
I compress that shoe, and with 

558
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,560
how much I compress it, I can 
still get surprisingly good 

559
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,920
ground feel. 
All right, I got another 

560
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:13,920
question for you. 
I've got another shoe to throw 

561
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,760
in here because I think we're 
we're dancing around this idea 

562
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,120
of our own experiences as 
defining them as match mall and 

563
00:28:20,120 --> 00:28:22,370
other things. 
So, I think so. 

564
00:28:22,370 --> 00:28:24,770
Another shoe. 
So David, this one's starting 

565
00:28:24,770 --> 00:28:30,250
with you because you're putting 
Takumisen in it at 33 or 32 

566
00:28:30,290 --> 00:28:33,570
millimeters. 
What about the Ride 16? 

567
00:28:33,610 --> 00:28:37,330
It has 35 millimeters. 
In the heel is the ride 16A 

568
00:28:37,330 --> 00:28:41,170
maximal trainer from Saucony. 
Yeah, that's a great question. 

569
00:28:41,650 --> 00:28:45,210
I think because of the materials
and the experience on foot, it 

570
00:28:45,210 --> 00:28:49,210
isn't it's it's a normal feel. 
It's a very traditional high 

571
00:28:49,210 --> 00:28:52,040
drop training kind of feel. 
They've done a lot of things 

572
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,240
that have cleaned it up. 
It's got a nice, you know, 

573
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,080
transition to it. 
In some ways it feels like some 

574
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,560
of those Max Stack shoes is 
having that gentle rocker a 

575
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:01,360
little bit more flexibility 
upfront. 

576
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:05,520
Also less foam, You know, they 
took some of the outsole out to 

577
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,320
make it a little bit more plush 
under foot of the experience. 

578
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:13,440
But I would still say that if I 
compared let's say the Ride 16 

579
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,840
with something like the 
Endorphin Pro 3. 

580
00:29:16,530 --> 00:29:18,970
And you just took the plate out 
of it and just had like power 

581
00:29:18,970 --> 00:29:22,090
MPB that would be way, way, way,
way softer, you know what I 

582
00:29:22,090 --> 00:29:23,890
mean? 
I'm trying to think if they have

583
00:29:23,890 --> 00:29:25,770
something more comparable. 
I got another. 

584
00:29:26,770 --> 00:29:27,810
I got another. 
Which is right? 

585
00:29:28,130 --> 00:29:31,250
Well, I was gonna say Triumph, 
which is 37 millimeters, but 

586
00:29:31,250 --> 00:29:33,090
power run twice, yes. 
And the triumph? 

587
00:29:33,090 --> 00:29:37,250
I have it right here, yeah. 
I would consider that, yeah. 

588
00:29:37,290 --> 00:29:39,690
And it's a softer foam, much 
more compliant. 

589
00:29:39,690 --> 00:29:43,210
And that experience is it feels 
much more plush and maximal to 

590
00:29:43,210 --> 00:29:43,810
me. 
Yeah. 

591
00:29:43,810 --> 00:29:47,050
So it's more it's more the foam 
experience for you than the 

592
00:29:47,050 --> 00:29:50,490
stack. 
So even if potentially if the if

593
00:29:50,490 --> 00:29:53,890
the triumph, or if the right if 
the triumph only had 35 

594
00:29:53,890 --> 00:29:57,610
millimeters of stack, it still 
could be in your mind more of a 

595
00:29:57,610 --> 00:30:00,690
maximal definition because of 
the foam experience under foot. 

596
00:30:01,210 --> 00:30:04,430
Could be, yeah. 
So the, so how are we defining 

597
00:30:04,430 --> 00:30:06,550
this then? 
So I see where you're going. 

598
00:30:06,750 --> 00:30:09,110
I see it's like, wait, are we 
defining this by a certain level

599
00:30:09,110 --> 00:30:12,590
of stack height, right? 
Like it's got to be above 37 or 

600
00:30:12,590 --> 00:30:15,430
above 40 to be considered 
maximalist. 

601
00:30:15,470 --> 00:30:17,390
I know it's what we're talking. 
It's just thinking out loud 

602
00:30:17,390 --> 00:30:19,630
going you. 
Know you did say like if it was 

603
00:30:19,630 --> 00:30:21,950
a hard cutoff at like OK, well 
it has to be 40. 

604
00:30:21,950 --> 00:30:24,950
Well, you take a lot of shoes 
that are 39 and 37 out, right? 

605
00:30:25,070 --> 00:30:28,030
Yeah, there's a good number of 
maximalist super shoes out there

606
00:30:28,030 --> 00:30:31,750
that that aren't at the 40 mark.
Another shoe that I'm not going 

607
00:30:31,750 --> 00:30:36,630
to give the stack height on, but
is the Clifton 9A Maximal 

608
00:30:37,150 --> 00:30:41,030
Maximally Cushioned Trainer. 
I with how everything has 

609
00:30:41,030 --> 00:30:45,150
shifted, I kind of throw it in 
the normal training category. 

610
00:30:45,150 --> 00:30:50,670
Now it's what I don't what is 
this stack, I don't think Before

611
00:30:50,670 --> 00:30:52,550
I give that Matt, what's your 
answer on the Clifton? 

612
00:30:52,750 --> 00:30:54,550
It's pretty low. 
There's an It's too much. 

613
00:30:54,830 --> 00:30:58,720
I have. 
I think I'm biased to say yes 

614
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,200
because I remember when that 
shoot came out and I was 

615
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:02,720
working. 
Around, but I used to be like 

616
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,680
the Max cushion used. 
To be the maximal shoot which 

617
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:10,360
which also like kind of goes, 
messes with my argument almost 

618
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,120
about the two can be sent. 
Let's go. 

619
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,360
This is why this is such a fun 
conversation. 

620
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:19,880
All right, what do you got, 
Matt? 

621
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,360
What's your answer? 
I'm I'm going to say yes, based 

622
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,230
on. 
All the features and I'm. 

623
00:31:26,230 --> 00:31:29,670
Sure, you're going to tell me 
that it's actually like 35 

624
00:31:29,670 --> 00:31:31,830
millimeters? 
No, it's not going to look like 

625
00:31:31,830 --> 00:31:35,550
an idiot. 
So so I have this looked up on 

626
00:31:35,550 --> 00:31:38,030
running Warehouse because we 
didn't get specs from hookah. 

627
00:31:38,030 --> 00:31:41,950
So running warehouse has the 
heel at 40, the Clifton 9. 

628
00:31:42,350 --> 00:31:45,990
The Clifton 9 heel, probably 
with the with the sock liner, is

629
00:31:45,990 --> 00:31:50,590
at 40 and the four foot is at 
35, according to Running 

630
00:31:50,590 --> 00:31:55,190
Warehouse. 
So OK, got my bias and say so I 

631
00:31:55,190 --> 00:31:58,990
think that just let's like let's
look at from a from an 

632
00:31:58,990 --> 00:32:02,310
experience perspective. 
David's answer says that a 33 

633
00:32:02,310 --> 00:32:05,830
millimeter shoe with, you know. 
With Light Strike. 

634
00:32:05,830 --> 00:32:09,630
With Light Strike Pro gets you a
Max cushion shoe, whereas a 40 

635
00:32:09,630 --> 00:32:13,510
millimeter stack doesn't, but a 
39 in the shift does. 

636
00:32:14,030 --> 00:32:17,790
So I I think the reason I'm not 
trying to call you out, David, 

637
00:32:17,950 --> 00:32:22,430
but I think I think how we 
define this is really 

638
00:32:22,430 --> 00:32:23,910
interesting. 
If we go off of our own 

639
00:32:23,910 --> 00:32:26,550
subjective experience, what does
that even mean? 

640
00:32:26,550 --> 00:32:29,510
Like is it just that we that it 
feels protective and how much 

641
00:32:29,510 --> 00:32:33,070
value does that have for us in 
terms of either you know forced 

642
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,640
reduction or easier recovery 
because we don't have as much 

643
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,640
muscle breakdown, we don't know 
those actual results. 

644
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:40,920
And I just think it's 
fascinating. 

645
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,120
What we do know is that even the
the shoes within that like low 

646
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,800
30s stack have the changes 
biomechanically and force wise 

647
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,840
with the normal Eva that we see 
in the in the Ride 16. 

648
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,960
You know, that kind of stuff is 
shown to give you those benefits

649
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,200
from what we know from the 
research so far. 

650
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,240
So I think I don't know if I'm 
being clear, probably not. 

651
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,560
I really am. 
But the idea of our subjective 

652
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,920
subjective experience is going 
to highlight the interplay of 

653
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,040
foam geometry and and stack 
height altogether. 

654
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,920
Whereas all three of those still
might give us the the benefits 

655
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,400
that we know of so far, but some
of these other ones are less 

656
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,320
well defined. 
We're seeing some of the stuff 

657
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,920
come out with these new foams 
and kind of how that changes the

658
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,960
breakdown of our musculature and
all that kind of stuff. 

659
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,480
And I think that might end up 
playing a bigger role in how we 

660
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,480
define maximalist in the future.
I just don't think we have a 

661
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,880
solid definition yet, which is 
why we're having this 

662
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:39,720
conversation. 
All right, so and I'm. 

663
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,720
Defined defined maximalist 
trainer now. 

664
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:47,440
Well, a trainer versus shoe is. 
Different maximal shoe, fine 

665
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,320
maximal shoe. 
I would say a protective 

666
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:56,280
experience, something that 
doesn't feel like when you land 

667
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,320
on the ground, you feel like you
have adequate cushion under your

668
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,520
foot and you feel like it's 
something higher than a normal 

669
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,600
shoe would give you. 
I guess is what I would say. 

670
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,639
And that's probably your 
traditional Eva Thirtyish, 

671
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:09,840
right? 
Like, I don't know. 

672
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,639
Like, I think of like a Nike 
Pegasus or. 

673
00:34:13,170 --> 00:34:17,889
What used to be the A6 cumulus, 
that shoe has changed a lot or 

674
00:34:17,889 --> 00:34:21,730
like like any of those the 
Saucony ride, you know like I 

675
00:34:21,730 --> 00:34:26,050
think the flagship neutral shoes
880 and obviously things have 

676
00:34:26,050 --> 00:34:28,610
changed in the last couple years
with a lot of these designs. 

677
00:34:28,610 --> 00:34:31,730
But when I think of like 
traditional shoe, that's kind of

678
00:34:31,730 --> 00:34:34,810
what I think and something 
beyond that is kind of what I 

679
00:34:34,810 --> 00:34:39,530
consider the Max cushion or Max 
category to be and to be fair 

680
00:34:39,530 --> 00:34:42,750
when with the Takumi. 
This is also on like the lowest 

681
00:34:42,750 --> 00:34:45,630
end possible, like it's like 
category yes or no. 

682
00:34:45,790 --> 00:34:49,830
I'm saying yes but it could very
easily go no for a lot of 

683
00:34:49,830 --> 00:34:51,310
people. 
Like it's like right on the line

684
00:34:51,310 --> 00:34:56,670
I feel like and what OK, so 
David, in your in your approach 

685
00:34:56,670 --> 00:35:00,070
to this right now it's very 
individualized towards the 

686
00:35:00,070 --> 00:35:03,750
runner's experience knowing that
pretty much every shoe is 

687
00:35:03,750 --> 00:35:07,590
technically maximal as we know 
it from a research perspective 

688
00:35:07,630 --> 00:35:10,270
right now most shoes are coming 
out as maximal shoes. 

689
00:35:11,060 --> 00:35:12,540
So you're looking at this 
individual. 

690
00:35:12,540 --> 00:35:18,060
So if any, would you say that 
there is a benefit to having a 

691
00:35:18,060 --> 00:35:22,340
shoe like that for a runner and 
why you're also looking 

692
00:35:22,380 --> 00:35:23,380
something up? 
I get this. 

693
00:35:23,460 --> 00:35:26,260
I'm looking I'm on Adidas's 
website right now to see what 

694
00:35:26,340 --> 00:35:29,940
they classify as so. 
Can I can I throw? 

695
00:35:29,980 --> 00:35:33,290
Can I throw something in here? 
So it sounds like what David? 

696
00:35:33,290 --> 00:35:35,530
I don't know, Nathan, I still 
want to hear how you define it, 

697
00:35:35,530 --> 00:35:39,210
but it sounds like it's a it's 
really not a set number, but 

698
00:35:39,210 --> 00:35:44,290
it's a comparison to the norm. 
So a sockety ride in 880, those 

699
00:35:44,290 --> 00:35:47,050
stack heights have increased in 
recent years. 

700
00:35:47,050 --> 00:35:48,650
They did not used to be that 
tall. 

701
00:35:49,810 --> 00:35:53,850
So, but a maximal shoe is going 
to be whatever is higher than 

702
00:35:53,850 --> 00:35:57,650
what when the average is even if
the average is moving upwards. 

703
00:35:58,090 --> 00:36:00,450
Yeah, I I'm. 
Misunderstanding that. 

704
00:36:00,910 --> 00:36:03,390
No, I think that's what I think.
That's kind of what we've been 

705
00:36:03,390 --> 00:36:10,150
saying and I for me right now I 
think that maximal as as I've 

706
00:36:10,150 --> 00:36:16,070
defined it in my head, which has
been shoes that lead to the the 

707
00:36:16,070 --> 00:36:19,790
changes in mechanics and force 
like attenuation. 

708
00:36:21,950 --> 00:36:25,150
Pretty much every trainer from 
major running companies falls 

709
00:36:25,150 --> 00:36:30,110
into that category now right. 
So my new definition for maximal

710
00:36:30,470 --> 00:36:34,870
is going to be relative to 
everything else, so everything 

711
00:36:34,870 --> 00:36:36,870
is maximal, right? 
Now that's not true. 

712
00:36:36,870 --> 00:36:39,150
There are shoes that are not 
maximal for the most part. 

713
00:36:39,150 --> 00:36:42,390
Most things are maximal as it 
relates to the. 

714
00:36:42,910 --> 00:36:46,590
Research changes. 
Maximal like I said, not 

715
00:36:46,590 --> 00:36:52,350
everything, but I think my 
biggest questions relate to show

716
00:36:52,350 --> 00:36:56,510
me, show me the differences 
between shoes that have certain 

717
00:36:56,510 --> 00:37:01,190
types of foams and the impact on
our bodies both from a recovery 

718
00:37:01,190 --> 00:37:03,230
standpoint. 
And when I say recovery, I more 

719
00:37:03,230 --> 00:37:06,550
mean like how much does your 
body break down or how much, you

720
00:37:06,550 --> 00:37:09,430
know, byproduct do you create 
within the same type of run with

721
00:37:09,430 --> 00:37:11,550
multiple shoes in the same 
training session. 

722
00:37:12,270 --> 00:37:15,230
And I think that goes beyond 
running economy that you know, 

723
00:37:15,230 --> 00:37:17,990
cuz I think there's some studies
out there with that we talked 

724
00:37:17,990 --> 00:37:23,550
about with Sakeni 2 on the 
Kinvara Pro versus the endorphin

725
00:37:23,550 --> 00:37:26,070
Pro 3. 
But I don't know. 

726
00:37:26,070 --> 00:37:28,830
I think that everything's 
maximal, but in the same way as 

727
00:37:28,830 --> 00:37:31,790
David. 
It's like what's maximal is 

728
00:37:31,790 --> 00:37:34,990
going to be relative to the to 
the mean, which now everything 

729
00:37:34,990 --> 00:37:37,230
is maximal. 
So it's now just like more 

730
00:37:37,230 --> 00:37:39,910
maximal and it is based on 
experience, but we don't know 

731
00:37:39,910 --> 00:37:43,190
really what that does and who it
does it to and why we would 

732
00:37:43,350 --> 00:37:45,470
care. 
That's my opinion, which is a 

733
00:37:45,470 --> 00:37:48,070
non opinion in some ways. 
Well, what if? 

734
00:37:48,910 --> 00:37:52,310
Now, this could be a wild thing 
to say, but what if maximal is 

735
00:37:52,310 --> 00:37:53,670
just relative to the company's 
lineup? 

736
00:37:54,830 --> 00:37:58,110
Like, what if it's like it's 
just maximal for them and that's

737
00:37:58,110 --> 00:38:02,670
their maximal shoe, and that's 
OK, versus like comparing their 

738
00:38:02,670 --> 00:38:05,710
maximal shoe to the rest of all 
of the other companies? 

739
00:38:05,710 --> 00:38:09,630
It's like, well, let's say our 
highest offering is 35. 

740
00:38:10,610 --> 00:38:13,290
And they tend to just have a 
philosophical, you know, they 

741
00:38:13,290 --> 00:38:14,850
like to keep things a little bit
lower. 

742
00:38:15,170 --> 00:38:18,570
And then you look at a shoe 
that's like 47, like the SC 

743
00:38:18,570 --> 00:38:21,090
trainer one. 
And it's like, well, it's not 

744
00:38:21,090 --> 00:38:22,970
maximal because the SC trainer 
exists. 

745
00:38:23,130 --> 00:38:25,490
It's not maximal because the 
nimbus exists or the Super 

746
00:38:25,490 --> 00:38:28,730
blast. 
Like what if for them it is Max 

747
00:38:28,730 --> 00:38:31,770
cushion like a lot of people 
would you guys classify the on 

748
00:38:31,770 --> 00:38:33,930
cloud monster? 
Would that be a Max category 

749
00:38:33,930 --> 00:38:35,930
issue? 
It's an honest question. 

750
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,280
I haven't been an honest 
question, I haven't been 

751
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,760
answering much of these. 
But again, with my current 

752
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,400
thing, yes, pretty much 
everything is maximal. 

753
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,920
I would kind of. 
I put my maximal around 30. 

754
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,680
So I'm going to throw this out 
here that I think there are two 

755
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,760
categories that we are dancing 
around. 

756
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,800
But I think now there's a 
maximal category and there is a 

757
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,160
super Max, and I think that's 
where you start getting into the

758
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,080
the SC trainer one or the Super 
Max. 

759
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,680
This is math research brain 
talking. 

760
00:39:07,220 --> 00:39:09,500
I I think there are it. 
Has to be categorized. 

761
00:39:09,580 --> 00:39:11,860
There's no gay area that has to 
give. 

762
00:39:12,820 --> 00:39:17,740
Me a break, but I think that 
there are additional categories 

763
00:39:17,740 --> 00:39:22,300
here, like at today's world 
strapping on a Cliff. 

764
00:39:22,460 --> 00:39:27,460
Like if I go from the GT2000, 
which is I guess taller than it 

765
00:39:27,460 --> 00:39:29,580
used to be, but it's still in 
that like 30. 

766
00:39:29,580 --> 00:39:33,380
I think it's 30 two and a half 
24 1/2 stack height, which by 

767
00:39:33,380 --> 00:39:35,540
today's standards fairly 
moderate if not. 

768
00:39:35,850 --> 00:39:37,770
I guess it's not slightly low, 
but it's more moderate, right? 

769
00:39:37,930 --> 00:39:39,610
And it's I'm really enjoying the
shoe. 

770
00:39:39,850 --> 00:39:45,930
If I go from this to a Clifton 
or like, I think the probably 

771
00:39:45,930 --> 00:39:47,530
the better example would be the 
Arahi. 

772
00:39:47,530 --> 00:39:50,650
Given the similarity with 
stability, that doesn't throw me

773
00:39:50,650 --> 00:39:53,130
off as much anymore, right? 
Just because that it's like, 

774
00:39:53,130 --> 00:39:55,490
yeah, the Arahi is more of a 
maximal, it's got a little more 

775
00:39:55,490 --> 00:39:58,410
higher stack height, but that 
difference isn't as big. 

776
00:39:58,410 --> 00:40:01,570
But I would still categorize the
Arahi as a maximal stack height 

777
00:40:01,570 --> 00:40:06,000
shoe. 
But if I go from the GT2000 to a

778
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,720
prime X, that's a different 
story. 

779
00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:11,280
I'm like, I am very well. 
This comes back to subjective. 

780
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,320
I got them qualitative data, 
baby. 

781
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,200
Yeah, I think that there is so 
much subjectivity. 

782
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:23,600
And going back to your thought 
David, on like a lineups maximal

783
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,680
definition, I think there is 
some truth there. 

784
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,720
But I also give the caveat of 
like, but some things aren't 

785
00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:32,620
maximal, like if, right? 
If Zero came out with a Max 

786
00:40:32,620 --> 00:40:36,420
stack shoe that had five 
millimeters of foam, like that's

787
00:40:36,540 --> 00:40:39,380
not the same thing. 
That's not going to be maximal 

788
00:40:39,620 --> 00:40:43,900
and even like to, you know, 
until recently like Newton has 

789
00:40:43,900 --> 00:40:46,140
been lower too, right. 
So they haven't put a lot of 

790
00:40:46,140 --> 00:40:49,220
foam underneath to their newer 
stuff coming out that they're 

791
00:40:49,220 --> 00:40:53,020
starting to change, but I think.
I I think that there is, there 

792
00:40:53,020 --> 00:40:55,900
is some threshold that I do 
think that and I I need to look 

793
00:40:55,900 --> 00:40:58,220
up that study that used that 
Adidas shoe. 

794
00:40:59,020 --> 00:41:02,580
But I and and then there was the
other study that looked at the 

795
00:41:02,580 --> 00:41:06,340
type of cushioning and the 
difference in higher and lower 

796
00:41:06,340 --> 00:41:09,140
BMI and how that changed things 
with injury as well. 

797
00:41:09,380 --> 00:41:12,300
But I I think that there is a 
threshold study, right? 

798
00:41:12,340 --> 00:41:15,140
Yeah, that was malso. 
Yeah, I think that there's a 

799
00:41:15,140 --> 00:41:18,420
couple. 
There is a threshold of true 

800
00:41:18,420 --> 00:41:20,340
what I would consider like true,
maximal. 

801
00:41:20,460 --> 00:41:24,220
But right now, because 
everything sits up there, there 

802
00:41:24,260 --> 00:41:27,100
is going to be a defined maximal
which is where the the. 

803
00:41:27,140 --> 00:41:31,540
I think the ASICS conversation 
is really good because before 

804
00:41:31,540 --> 00:41:35,620
the Super blast and before the 
Nimbus 25 they didn't have like 

805
00:41:35,620 --> 00:41:38,500
what what the company would say 
is their maximum maximal cushion

806
00:41:38,500 --> 00:41:41,420
trainer, right? 
Because the Nimbus wasn't that. 

807
00:41:41,970 --> 00:41:44,450
Crazy different. 
But now it is like the there's a

808
00:41:44,650 --> 00:41:47,250
clear difference between the 
experience and the feel of the 

809
00:41:47,250 --> 00:41:50,250
Nimbus 25 and the cumulus, where
I feel like those were getting 

810
00:41:50,250 --> 00:41:53,290
so close together over the last,
you know, three or four years. 

811
00:41:53,570 --> 00:41:57,890
So I do think that there's some 
truth right now in stratifying 

812
00:41:57,890 --> 00:42:02,170
what's maximal related to the 
the company's line, which does 

813
00:42:02,170 --> 00:42:04,890
come down to experience and feel
under foot. 

814
00:42:05,650 --> 00:42:09,530
Sometimes even more than stack 
height because the Bondi and the

815
00:42:09,530 --> 00:42:13,330
Clifton are about the same, but 
they feel very different under 

816
00:42:13,330 --> 00:42:18,570
foot as well from Hoka. 
Supposed to be their Max 

817
00:42:18,570 --> 00:42:16,090
offering? 
So I think that there is 

818
00:42:16,090 --> 00:42:17,050
something there, but there's 
also. 

819
00:42:18,970 --> 00:42:22,770
Right, right. 
So wait, can we go back? 

820
00:42:22,930 --> 00:42:23,850
Let's go back a second. 
Yeah. 

821
00:42:24,370 --> 00:42:26,530
I have a question. 
Yeah, what's the question? 

822
00:42:27,130 --> 00:42:30,850
The Adidas Adi 0SL. 
Where does that lie? 

823
00:42:31,410 --> 00:42:33,810
Oh crap. 
So it would be again, for me, 

824
00:42:33,810 --> 00:42:37,450
it's maximal because it's going 
to be around. 

825
00:42:37,450 --> 00:42:39,050
It's maximal because 
everything's maximal. 

826
00:42:39,050 --> 00:42:41,690
Well, not everything, but like 
most of these trainers, but it 

827
00:42:41,690 --> 00:42:44,650
doesn't feel like a maximal 
maximally cushioned trainer 

828
00:42:44,650 --> 00:42:48,170
today. 
OK, How about, I would say 

829
00:42:48,170 --> 00:42:52,090
traditional stack height? 
What about, what about the 

830
00:42:52,090 --> 00:42:50,570
Boston 12? 
Yeah, for today's. 

831
00:42:53,930 --> 00:42:57,090
Yeah, Boston 12. 
I'm going to say that's more 

832
00:42:57,090 --> 00:42:59,050
maximal. 
I'm going to lean that way a 

833
00:42:59,050 --> 00:43:02,150
little bit. 
Again, OK, maximal, but I'd also

834
00:43:02,150 --> 00:43:04,590
say it. 
I would say it's pretty similar 

835
00:43:04,590 --> 00:43:07,790
to the SL, but feels a little 
more cushioned because of the 

836
00:43:07,790 --> 00:43:09,670
foam type. 
I think that's great, I'm going 

837
00:43:09,670 --> 00:43:10,990
to say. 
And what's more for Boston? 

838
00:43:11,590 --> 00:43:13,510
OK. 
And what do you feel is more 

839
00:43:13,510 --> 00:43:15,230
cushioned, the Boston or the 
Takumi? 

840
00:43:15,590 --> 00:43:20,870
Haven't ran a takumi about I've 
solved myself in this opinion 

841
00:43:21,110 --> 00:43:24,070
I'm going to get the Boston is 
far like we're talking Boston 

842
00:43:24,070 --> 00:43:26,480
12, right? 
Boston 12, OK. 

843
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,120
Because Boston 1110 and slightly
different. 

844
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,560
They were very firm. 
Yeah, I'm going to give the 

845
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:39,080
Boston 12A more cushioned ride. 
OK, what if I told you that the 

846
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,080
ADI 0SL and the Boston have the 
same stack height? 

847
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,200
I believe it. 
And that the Takumi is only two 

848
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,560
millimeters off. 
I do think that the experience 

849
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,960
is you're talking only about 
stack height though. 

850
00:43:51,370 --> 00:43:53,850
I know, and I think there's more
looking at experience, right? 

851
00:43:53,890 --> 00:43:54,370
Right. 
Yeah. 

852
00:43:54,370 --> 00:43:56,650
I think there's more factors 
that go into that. 

853
00:43:57,410 --> 00:44:01,850
So there's more Light Strike pro
in the in the Boston 12 and then

854
00:44:01,850 --> 00:44:03,810
in the SL. 
There's still that little pod in

855
00:44:03,810 --> 00:44:06,010
the SL. 
But I think I think that gets 

856
00:44:06,010 --> 00:44:08,290
down to what you're saying, 
David, of materials. 

857
00:44:08,290 --> 00:44:11,690
The materials matter, but we 
don't in my, I don't know, I'm 

858
00:44:11,690 --> 00:44:13,770
excited to read more about like 
what are the material 

859
00:44:13,770 --> 00:44:16,890
differences actually do. 
We don't know that yet as well 

860
00:44:16,930 --> 00:44:20,210
as we just know that both the SL
and the 12. 

861
00:44:20,740 --> 00:44:23,700
Boston 12 are going to get you 
those similar changes from a 

862
00:44:24,100 --> 00:44:28,580
force distribution perspective, 
but there might be more cool 

863
00:44:28,580 --> 00:44:33,300
things that come from the 12 
having more Light Strike Pro or 

864
00:44:33,300 --> 00:44:35,420
even the Takumi Sen, even though
it's a little bit lower. 

865
00:44:36,020 --> 00:44:38,060
Well, I'm going to throw in 
additional stuff in terms of 

866
00:44:38,060 --> 00:44:40,460
geometry being really, really 
different between the two of 

867
00:44:40,460 --> 00:44:43,420
those. 
The stiffening agents in the, 

868
00:44:43,540 --> 00:44:45,660
which I know, David, I know 
you'd be like, yeah, it's also 

869
00:44:45,700 --> 00:44:48,380
Takumi Sen, but the level of 
flexibility is very different 

870
00:44:48,380 --> 00:44:52,000
between those stiffening agents.
Between that and the boss, he's.

871
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,000
Saying an ass have a rocker is 
what he's trying to say. 

872
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,800
That's what he's trying to say. 
No, it's I'll let you finish but

873
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,640
that's what he's wanted that it.
But I am kind. 

874
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:02,840
I was thinking about that 
earlier right that it's got to 

875
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,680
be a little bit more rockered to
be maximal. 

876
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:07,680
But I already mentioned that 
that kind of gets thrown out of 

877
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:09,680
the window with some of the 
previous, like Sketcher for 

878
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:11,880
example, when they had the Max 
Rd. 

879
00:45:12,650 --> 00:45:14,330
So. 
But that's the tape we probably 

880
00:45:14,370 --> 00:45:17,410
the Max Rd. is a maximal shoe. 
If you have I. 

881
00:45:17,570 --> 00:45:20,210
Still think? 
Relatively new generation foam 

882
00:45:20,330 --> 00:45:23,450
with 39 millimeters of stack 
height, 10 millimeter drop. 

883
00:45:24,730 --> 00:45:28,010
Would that in your eyes, like 
not knowing anything else about 

884
00:45:28,010 --> 00:45:30,570
the shoe, would that kind of 
fall in that maximal category? 

885
00:45:30,690 --> 00:45:33,050
He said this sound careful. 
Tread lightly. 

886
00:45:33,210 --> 00:45:37,530
He's setting aside it sounds 
like it, but it it depends on 

887
00:45:38,170 --> 00:45:42,320
the other components because you
only gave me drop and stack 

888
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:43,440
height. 
There are other things that I 

889
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:45,880
think. 
Relatively new generation phone.

890
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,400
There's other things that are 
going to go into that. 

891
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:53,600
I would say probably I was as 
you know me, I'm saying yes it 

892
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:55,400
is maximus stacked because 
everything is. 

893
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,640
And then secondly, I bet it 
would feel like the Super Max, 

894
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,650
super Max stacked. 
You said maximally stacked. 

895
00:46:03,650 --> 00:46:05,850
You didn't say maximal. 
Sorry, maximally cushioned. 

896
00:46:05,850 --> 00:46:08,090
That's been, we've been. 
We're maximally cushioned, yeah,

897
00:46:08,090 --> 00:46:10,450
yeah, maximally cushioned. 
We've been saying Max stack and 

898
00:46:10,450 --> 00:46:12,250
probably when we Max. 
Cushioned and if it was the 

899
00:46:12,250 --> 00:46:14,570
highest cushioning offering from
the company. 

900
00:46:14,570 --> 00:46:16,370
I'd say yes. 
Give me, what are you? 

901
00:46:16,490 --> 00:46:19,970
Talking about 29, it's got full 
Nitro foam. 

902
00:46:20,690 --> 00:46:23,540
It's the magnify too. 
Now there's not a rocker on it, 

903
00:46:23,660 --> 00:46:25,740
like, that's what I'm saying. 
Like this is a very traditional 

904
00:46:25,740 --> 00:46:27,940
shoe. 
It's a it's a very light, very, 

905
00:46:27,940 --> 00:46:30,660
very light. 
Now I can see like looking at 

906
00:46:30,660 --> 00:46:32,860
this thing, there's a very 
different rocker. 

907
00:46:33,860 --> 00:46:36,220
That's so grudge. 
Every shoe has a little rocker. 

908
00:46:36,380 --> 00:46:39,420
Say rocker was the only thing. 
I mean every. 

909
00:46:39,820 --> 00:46:42,900
There's no stiffening agent and 
it's a relatively natural 

910
00:46:42,980 --> 00:46:45,100
transition to say this is a had 
to be. 

911
00:46:46,380 --> 00:46:50,580
So I would say there had to be. 
So here's what. 

912
00:46:50,620 --> 00:46:53,980
Very different one looks like a 
clear ellipses and this one 

913
00:46:53,980 --> 00:46:56,220
looks like a normal shoe. 
Yeah, I still want to try that. 

914
00:46:56,220 --> 00:46:57,540
It's. 
A good one. 

915
00:46:57,540 --> 00:46:59,300
It's really nice. 
It's highly cushioned. 

916
00:46:59,340 --> 00:47:01,620
So here here's what I want to. 
Here's what I want to do. 

917
00:47:01,660 --> 00:47:03,500
Can you send that to me if 
Puma's listening? 

918
00:47:04,380 --> 00:47:07,420
Gosh, I want to try. 
It but I'm not the Max category.

919
00:47:07,660 --> 00:47:10,620
I really like it, but it's not 
like the other Max. 

920
00:47:11,830 --> 00:47:14,750
That's the Max. 
That's the shoe that you held 

921
00:47:14,750 --> 00:47:16,350
up, David. 
And I don't even think you said 

922
00:47:16,350 --> 00:47:18,270
the name, but it's the Magnify 
2. 

923
00:47:18,310 --> 00:47:22,110
Magnify 2 for Puma, yeah. 
So magnify 2 it is their Max 

924
00:47:22,110 --> 00:47:24,470
cushion offering Magnify or 
magnify. 

925
00:47:24,910 --> 00:47:27,070
Magnify. 
Magnify is from topo. 

926
00:47:27,550 --> 00:47:30,150
Also Braid Shoe. 
It's a zero drop shoe. 

927
00:47:30,150 --> 00:47:34,190
It's amazing. 
OK, so I want to start to wrap 

928
00:47:34,190 --> 00:47:36,510
up this conversation. 
Really, this conversation has 

929
00:47:36,510 --> 00:47:41,030
been a brainstorming session 
about what defines. 

930
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:45,120
Maximal cushioning What defines 
maximally cushioned trainer? 

931
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,120
And we definitely don't have an 
answer. 

932
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,280
I think what we could agree upon
is that we have it. 

933
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,760
We have a shoe. 
If a shoe has a certain amount 

934
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,720
of cushioning that has been 
found in a couple of those 

935
00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:01,840
studies that shows changes in 
force attenuation, that is going

936
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,920
to and that is going to be 
considered a maximal shoe. 

937
00:48:05,890 --> 00:48:08,930
But now since everything falls 
into that category, we don't 

938
00:48:08,930 --> 00:48:14,530
know who is going to have a more
cushioned experience in each and

939
00:48:14,530 --> 00:48:16,210
we have to try to tease those 
things out. 

940
00:48:16,210 --> 00:48:18,570
And I think we have more work to
do in terms of defining them. 

941
00:48:18,730 --> 00:48:21,970
But I think if we have like a 
category for maximal cushioned 

942
00:48:21,970 --> 00:48:24,220
shoe of the year. 
You're probably gonna get 

943
00:48:24,220 --> 00:48:27,420
something that would fall into 
more of a super Max category 

944
00:48:27,580 --> 00:48:31,020
whereas like the Clifton would 
probably go more into like a 

945
00:48:31,020 --> 00:48:33,540
daily trainer category. 
When I was thinking about the 

946
00:48:33,540 --> 00:48:37,460
Clifton, I would think that's a 
daily trainer, not what's my 

947
00:48:37,460 --> 00:48:40,380
best Max stack shoe of the year 
or Max cushion shoe of the year.

948
00:48:40,580 --> 00:48:45,580
So I think from there's it's, 
it's messy and that's OK, but we

949
00:48:45,580 --> 00:48:48,260
do have to move forward because 
we only got about, we got a 

950
00:48:48,260 --> 00:48:53,110
couple minutes left. 
I want to revisit a conversation

951
00:48:53,110 --> 00:48:56,030
that we had previously about our
thoughts on training and super 

952
00:48:56,030 --> 00:48:58,390
shoes. 
We can't belabor this too much, 

953
00:48:58,750 --> 00:49:02,230
but I there has been a new case 
series that's come out about 

954
00:49:02,230 --> 00:49:06,990
this that we want to touch on. 
It's a study that looked at 5 

955
00:49:07,030 --> 00:49:11,950
runners who had been habitually 
training in maximally stacked. 

956
00:49:13,670 --> 00:49:16,310
Super shoes. 
So they had carbon fiber plates 

957
00:49:16,310 --> 00:49:19,790
that were curved with an S plate
and they all five of these 

958
00:49:19,790 --> 00:49:22,350
athletes had navicular stress 
fractures. 

959
00:49:22,350 --> 00:49:25,430
So for those of you who don't 
know, the navicular bone is one 

960
00:49:25,430 --> 00:49:29,750
of the bones in the foot is kind
of at the top part of the arch. 

961
00:49:30,670 --> 00:49:33,670
And so all five of these 
athletes had been habitually 

962
00:49:33,670 --> 00:49:38,190
training in super shoes and had 
navicular stress fractures. 

963
00:49:38,430 --> 00:49:41,870
The biomechanical thought behind
this is that the shape of the 

964
00:49:41,870 --> 00:49:45,310
plate and the compliance of the 
foam led to increased 

965
00:49:45,470 --> 00:49:48,270
compressive forces at the top of
that bone and tension at the 

966
00:49:48,270 --> 00:49:51,070
bottom because of how the 
navicular bone could move 

967
00:49:51,070 --> 00:49:53,510
through that compliant foam. 
But how it gets stopped by some 

968
00:49:53,510 --> 00:49:56,990
of the plate geometry and then 
that led to a stress fracture. 

969
00:49:57,770 --> 00:50:01,650
So do y'all have any other 
reflections on that study or 

970
00:50:01,970 --> 00:50:06,370
thoughts on what should we think
about training in carbon plated 

971
00:50:06,610 --> 00:50:08,850
super shoes? 
Well, there was another study 

972
00:50:08,850 --> 00:50:13,050
that came out recently looking 
at stack height changes every 5 

973
00:50:13,050 --> 00:50:17,530
millimeters was like 30354045. 
That's another that's a whole 

974
00:50:17,610 --> 00:50:19,250
other study, yeah. 
Right. 

975
00:50:19,250 --> 00:50:19,890
No, but. 
Running. 

976
00:50:20,010 --> 00:50:21,410
Economy, right. 
Yeah. 

977
00:50:21,490 --> 00:50:24,930
But one of the findings of that 
study was that the rate of 

978
00:50:25,050 --> 00:50:27,450
eversion was higher in the 
higher. 

979
00:50:27,770 --> 00:50:32,330
Velocity shoes, so aversion just
meaning in close chain in 

980
00:50:32,330 --> 00:50:36,690
isolation it's your ankle and 
foot moving outside, but we 

981
00:50:36,690 --> 00:50:40,090
stand and we move and we don't 
do that when we're standing. 

982
00:50:40,090 --> 00:50:42,850
Like what that looks like 
functionally when you're landing

983
00:50:42,850 --> 00:50:45,650
it's basically a controlled 
pernation moment where the sub 

984
00:50:45,650 --> 00:50:48,210
tailor joints kind of coming 
down like this and it helps with

985
00:50:48,210 --> 00:50:50,610
shock absorption. 
But the rate of that collapse 

986
00:50:50,610 --> 00:50:53,610
essentially immediately was 
higher in those higher stack 

987
00:50:53,610 --> 00:50:56,700
shoes as well. 
So that's also something to 

988
00:50:56,700 --> 00:51:00,780
consider because you're taking 
these compliant foams and it's 

989
00:51:00,780 --> 00:51:03,260
showing that like the higher you
go up, the more you're going to 

990
00:51:03,260 --> 00:51:05,460
have. 
And in that study, which was 

991
00:51:05,460 --> 00:51:07,340
interesting was that there 
wasn't really that much of a 

992
00:51:07,340 --> 00:51:10,220
change in running economy not 
significant enough to actually 

993
00:51:10,340 --> 00:51:13,100
mean anything between those 
stack heights. 

994
00:51:13,100 --> 00:51:15,060
But where I'm going with that 
essentially is. 

995
00:51:16,240 --> 00:51:19,400
We don't know a lot of this 
stuff, but some of the stuff we 

996
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:21,880
do know is that your foot's 
going to move through more of 

997
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:23,800
that range. 
Like that's just going to happen

998
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:28,000
when it's more compliant. 
And if the mechanisms of those 

999
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,600
navicular stress fractures was 
impacts with the plate, well, 

1000
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,440
then ideally you probably 
shouldn't smash your navicular 

1001
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:37,640
into a plate every single day. 
But I'm just a huge fan of 

1002
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:41,080
variety and changing loading 
forces and, you know, taking 

1003
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:42,720
care of yourself. 
On top of that. 

1004
00:51:42,720 --> 00:51:44,000
We don't know what their sleep 
habits were. 

1005
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:45,280
We don't know what their diet 
habits were. 

1006
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,400
We don't know. 
All of those other things that 

1007
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:52,800
go along with it as well. 
But all of those things aside, 

1008
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:57,640
if you load your foot the exact 
same way all of the time, that 

1009
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:00,760
also isn't good. 
So I think just having a little 

1010
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,360
bit of variety in there probably
would be better. 

1011
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:07,640
So I I'm still not a fan of the 
daily training, you know, 

1012
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:11,240
workouts, racing, like 
everything, all in the same 

1013
00:52:11,240 --> 00:52:15,050
shoe. 
I don't know, I just think it's 

1014
00:52:15,050 --> 00:52:16,610
too much of the same repetitive 
motions. 

1015
00:52:16,930 --> 00:52:18,850
Go ahead Matt. 
I'm going to throw this out 

1016
00:52:18,850 --> 00:52:20,930
there. 
So I, I agree with David and I'm

1017
00:52:20,930 --> 00:52:24,650
going to quote one of Malzo's 
studies on the fact that one of 

1018
00:52:24,650 --> 00:52:28,490
the few things we know that can 
decrease injury risk is having a

1019
00:52:28,490 --> 00:52:30,810
a variety of footwear, right. 
You expose your body to 

1020
00:52:30,810 --> 00:52:32,330
different stresses on different 
days. 

1021
00:52:32,330 --> 00:52:35,530
Shoes are tools, use the tool 
appropriately for each thing. 

1022
00:52:35,810 --> 00:52:38,730
Obviously strength training is 
the other thing that's in there 

1023
00:52:40,170 --> 00:52:43,580
but and that I forgot where I 
was going with this. 

1024
00:52:43,620 --> 00:52:47,980
Hold on. 
I have a newborn dad brain right

1025
00:52:47,980 --> 00:52:52,700
now where I'm like I had a 
thought and then I don't sleep I

1026
00:52:52,700 --> 00:52:56,460
I get that and I can see my my 
challenge this is this is this 

1027
00:52:56,460 --> 00:52:58,740
is good right. 
So case studies are great for 

1028
00:52:58,740 --> 00:53:01,900
starting research. 
You have to be very careful not 

1029
00:53:01,900 --> 00:53:04,420
to pull conclusions from them 
because there is such a small 

1030
00:53:04,420 --> 00:53:07,180
sample size. 
You know it's going, hey, let's 

1031
00:53:07,180 --> 00:53:12,030
now get a large like get a huge 
variety of people survey, have 

1032
00:53:12,030 --> 00:53:14,590
them go, hey, what should you 
training in what injury as you 

1033
00:53:14,590 --> 00:53:17,390
had see if you can get a little 
bit more correlational data. 

1034
00:53:17,470 --> 00:53:19,270
But it is correlational data. 
At the end of the day. 

1035
00:53:19,710 --> 00:53:22,710
I will say that I think for the 
let's talk, I'm going to talk 

1036
00:53:22,710 --> 00:53:24,790
about the outliers and then 
averages. 

1037
00:53:24,790 --> 00:53:27,670
I think for the average 
population, average runner 

1038
00:53:28,510 --> 00:53:31,150
training in these all the time 
is probably not going to be the 

1039
00:53:31,150 --> 00:53:33,630
best idea. 
I think that you should use them

1040
00:53:34,150 --> 00:53:37,310
as the tools they are. 
You should have a normal shoe, 

1041
00:53:37,550 --> 00:53:40,750
maybe have one of these like 
plated shoes, you know, and use 

1042
00:53:40,750 --> 00:53:42,670
them appropriately. 
Use it for faster runs, use it 

1043
00:53:42,670 --> 00:53:44,350
maybe for a longer run, but then
get out of it. 

1044
00:53:44,350 --> 00:53:46,990
So you have that variety. 
I do think that there are a set 

1045
00:53:46,990 --> 00:53:50,350
of outliers who cannot handle 
that at all and another group 

1046
00:53:50,510 --> 00:53:53,630
who that's all they can run in, 
right, that they need the 

1047
00:53:53,630 --> 00:53:56,950
compliance and stiffness that 
interesting mix and that might 

1048
00:53:56,950 --> 00:54:00,720
be what helps them run. 
My great example for this, I 

1049
00:54:00,720 --> 00:54:02,600
have a bunch of. 
I'm still doing my study by the 

1050
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:03,760
way. 
So anybody listening if you're 

1051
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:07,080
over 50 years old in Southern 
California, have Achilles or cat

1052
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:09,720
problems, please help me. 
I need more subjects. 

1053
00:54:09,720 --> 00:54:11,960
I need 11 more. 
Please. 

1054
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:14,400
I really want to get this done 
so I can spend more time with my

1055
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:18,760
daughter. 
I there are a lot of who are 

1056
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:21,480
going like yeah, basically the 
only thing I can I train in now 

1057
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,990
are these these super shoes and 
I've had some people going yeah 

1058
00:54:24,990 --> 00:54:27,950
I want to participate in your 
study as a healthy person, but I

1059
00:54:27,950 --> 00:54:30,390
can't because you said I can't 
use super shoes during the 

1060
00:54:30,390 --> 00:54:32,310
testing. 
But yeah, because I there can be

1061
00:54:32,310 --> 00:54:33,590
some influence on your 
mechanics. 

1062
00:54:33,990 --> 00:54:36,270
So I think it's a balance of 
going for again the average 

1063
00:54:36,270 --> 00:54:38,510
person probably don't do that 
right. 

1064
00:54:38,510 --> 00:54:40,710
Probably have a variety of 
things so we know that decreases

1065
00:54:40,710 --> 00:54:42,750
injury. 
But there are two other groups 

1066
00:54:42,750 --> 00:54:44,870
that you need to figure out if 
you're a part of going are you 

1067
00:54:44,870 --> 00:54:46,670
the ones that are really 
sensitive this and you need to 

1068
00:54:46,670 --> 00:54:49,330
be very careful with how much 
you do in this or are you the 

1069
00:54:49,410 --> 00:54:52,290
the one group that that's all 
you can handle to be able to 

1070
00:54:52,290 --> 00:54:53,330
run? 
Because the last thing we want 

1071
00:54:53,330 --> 00:54:55,730
to do is tell you don't wear 
this shoe when you're like, this

1072
00:54:55,730 --> 00:54:57,810
is the only thing that allows me
to do this activity. 

1073
00:54:58,410 --> 00:55:00,770
So I don't want to say it 
depends, but I think there's 

1074
00:55:00,890 --> 00:55:06,890
there's we got to be careful 
pulling conclusions from a case 

1075
00:55:06,890 --> 00:55:09,410
study when case studies are 
phenomenal for going, let's look

1076
00:55:09,410 --> 00:55:12,930
at some individuals and then 
let's set up what we can do with

1077
00:55:12,930 --> 00:55:16,730
larger studies. 
I think I totally agree there 

1078
00:55:16,730 --> 00:55:20,500
and our. 
Tone on this conversation from 

1079
00:55:20,500 --> 00:55:23,940
the beginning has been We don't 
have enough data to actually 

1080
00:55:23,940 --> 00:55:26,100
know from a research 
perspective. 

1081
00:55:26,100 --> 00:55:30,060
It took us till 2010 to actually
know how minimalist footwear 

1082
00:55:30,060 --> 00:55:33,460
impacted the runner in terms of 
injury, even though we knew it 

1083
00:55:33,460 --> 00:55:35,860
way before, you know. 
But we're starting to see the 

1084
00:55:35,860 --> 00:55:38,300
trickling of this stuff, and our
tone from the beginning has 

1085
00:55:38,300 --> 00:55:40,010
been. 
We don't really know the 

1086
00:55:40,010 --> 00:55:42,570
impacts, but we do know that it 
changes stuff. 

1087
00:55:42,570 --> 00:55:45,330
When things are drastically 
different, it's probably not 

1088
00:55:45,330 --> 00:55:49,170
smart to jump Full Sail into it 
and to maintain some moderation.

1089
00:55:49,170 --> 00:55:52,250
So I think we stay in that in 
that realm, As you said, we 

1090
00:55:52,250 --> 00:55:56,290
can't over generalize a case 
series of five people. 

1091
00:55:56,330 --> 00:55:59,970
That would be irresponsible. 
But it does give us another 

1092
00:56:00,250 --> 00:56:03,890
touch point of things to 
consider when thinking about 

1093
00:56:03,890 --> 00:56:06,090
what should I be training in, 
what should I not be training 

1094
00:56:06,090 --> 00:56:07,090
in? 
Is there value? 

1095
00:56:07,090 --> 00:56:09,010
There is there not. 
And I think that's where I. 

1096
00:56:09,170 --> 00:56:11,370
Want to learn more? 
Because I you, you go talk to, 

1097
00:56:11,850 --> 00:56:14,930
you know, Jeff Burns and he 
talks about the effects of these

1098
00:56:14,930 --> 00:56:18,290
foams in the benefit for our 
running economy and our ability 

1099
00:56:18,290 --> 00:56:20,930
to handle more training for 
better performance because you 

1100
00:56:20,930 --> 00:56:22,490
might not have as much muscle 
breakdown. 

1101
00:56:23,130 --> 00:56:25,770
That's another side of the 
equation, and I think injuries 

1102
00:56:25,770 --> 00:56:28,650
also happen when you overtrain. 
But if these shoes can prevent 

1103
00:56:28,650 --> 00:56:30,410
you from overtraining, why 
wouldn't you want to use them? 

1104
00:56:30,610 --> 00:56:34,010
You have all these different 
sides of things, and it's not 

1105
00:56:34,010 --> 00:56:37,930
super clear, but I think 
moderation is a big, important 

1106
00:56:37,930 --> 00:56:39,370
thing. 
Matt, you got one more thing, 

1107
00:56:39,570 --> 00:56:41,290
bring it up. 
I'm gonna throw the other side 

1108
00:56:41,290 --> 00:56:43,890
of this and I gotta give a shout
out to Andy Burfoot, who has 

1109
00:56:43,890 --> 00:56:47,730
been so nice to reach out and 
communicate with me on Masters 

1110
00:56:47,730 --> 00:56:49,650
runners. 
And it's been really fun to get 

1111
00:56:49,650 --> 00:56:52,170
to eat like E, meet him and get 
to know him. 

1112
00:56:52,530 --> 00:56:55,890
But he put up a recent again 
another small like case series 

1113
00:56:55,890 --> 00:57:00,890
case study on this group that 
compared those who trained 

1114
00:57:00,890 --> 00:57:03,490
through a season using 
traditional racing flat like 

1115
00:57:03,490 --> 00:57:06,130
lower stack racing flats and 
super shoes. 

1116
00:57:06,130 --> 00:57:09,090
And what they found is although 
the people that use the 

1117
00:57:09,090 --> 00:57:13,610
traditional flats were more sore
and kind of like like definitely

1118
00:57:13,610 --> 00:57:16,980
more sore, like higher perceived
muscle soreness, they actually 

1119
00:57:16,980 --> 00:57:20,700
their economy improved more than
the group that used the Super 

1120
00:57:20,700 --> 00:57:22,460
shoes. 
Which makes sense, right? 

1121
00:57:22,460 --> 00:57:26,380
If you if you, the more your 
body adapts to stress. 

1122
00:57:26,540 --> 00:57:30,140
So if you have the same training
between two groups, it makes 

1123
00:57:30,140 --> 00:57:32,460
sense, you're going to have 
higher adaptations if you don't 

1124
00:57:32,460 --> 00:57:35,340
get hurt, you don't overdo it in
the more traditional thing. 

1125
00:57:35,500 --> 00:57:38,140
Whereas what's coming with the 
Super shoes is yeah, you're 

1126
00:57:38,140 --> 00:57:40,140
right. 
It's allowing us to do more. 

1127
00:57:40,340 --> 00:57:42,460
So if you do more, you'll get 
maybe those same things. 

1128
00:57:42,460 --> 00:57:45,380
But if you know, I think the 
other thing goes the same way, 

1129
00:57:45,380 --> 00:57:48,300
it might be good if you're 
training in these super shoes 

1130
00:57:48,300 --> 00:57:51,340
all the time or these Maxwell 
shoes, it might be really good 

1131
00:57:51,340 --> 00:57:53,820
to go. 
Hey, every once in a while just 

1132
00:57:53,940 --> 00:57:56,540
spend a little time and 
something a little bit less, 

1133
00:57:56,540 --> 00:57:58,140
right? 
Because you you will adapt to 

1134
00:57:58,140 --> 00:58:00,060
things. 
If you if you stay in one thing 

1135
00:58:00,060 --> 00:58:02,420
too long, if that's all, if you 
know it's all you can do, that's

1136
00:58:02,420 --> 00:58:04,660
a different story. 
But if you have the flexibility,

1137
00:58:04,900 --> 00:58:09,420
if you adapt too far one side, 
all the potential risks of that,

1138
00:58:09,420 --> 00:58:11,380
you're going to be exposed to 
where you go, hey, let me kind 

1139
00:58:11,380 --> 00:58:15,250
of spread stuff out a little bit
again that that moderation and 

1140
00:58:15,250 --> 00:58:16,410
that variation I think is going 
to help. 

1141
00:58:16,410 --> 00:58:19,450
My great example is I'm really 
enjoying my pair, my 2 pairs of 

1142
00:58:19,450 --> 00:58:22,770
zeros right now where I'm going 
from, you know, running for a 

1143
00:58:22,770 --> 00:58:26,330
mile in a super minimalist shoe 
to then running in the Primex 

1144
00:58:26,330 --> 00:58:29,490
strung to the next day, which is
50 millimeters stack height. 

1145
00:58:29,930 --> 00:58:33,490
And it's actually like it's it's
kind of pleasant. 

1146
00:58:33,490 --> 00:58:36,410
It's a little shock to the 
system going that variety feels 

1147
00:58:36,410 --> 00:58:38,570
good because like, oh, I'm using
something different. 

1148
00:58:38,930 --> 00:58:42,160
I know this is kind of a going a
little too long here, but I 

1149
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:45,560
think, I think variety, variety 
is key here. 

1150
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:48,800
Unless you cannot handle that, 
that's a different story. 

1151
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:51,400
But you should be looking how do
I get a variety of things as 

1152
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:53,360
their bodies kind of like a 
little variation. 

1153
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:56,000
It's how we adapt. 
Totally. 

1154
00:58:56,840 --> 00:58:59,440
Well, this has been great. 
This is a fun conversation. 

1155
00:58:59,920 --> 00:59:03,200
We this is our first time kind 
of testing out a little bit of 

1156
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:05,960
the more brainstorming side of 
things instead of having a solid

1157
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:08,960
thing and we got to bring you 
into some of our process of how 

1158
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:12,320
we think through discussions. 
So I hope y'all enjoyed this. 

1159
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:15,520
I think the last thing that I 
want to leave you with is this 

1160
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:18,920
would be my, I think my second 
episode like this, but I'm now 

1161
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:22,300
bald. 
Somebody calls it BBC, which 

1162
00:59:22,300 --> 00:59:24,860
means bald by choice. 
I am thinning and I've been 

1163
00:59:24,860 --> 00:59:26,060
thinking about going bald for a 
while. 

1164
00:59:26,060 --> 00:59:28,580
I finally just shave the head. 
But the other subjective 

1165
00:59:28,580 --> 00:59:31,940
question is what bald person do 
you think I look like the most? 

1166
00:59:32,180 --> 00:59:35,620
Jana's pick is? 
And I I guess I didn't really 

1167
00:59:35,620 --> 00:59:37,500
know this thing, but she thinks 
it's Stanley Tucci. 

1168
00:59:38,140 --> 00:59:39,580
That's her pick. 
Yeah. 

1169
00:59:39,580 --> 00:59:40,340
Stanley Tucci. 
Glasses. 

1170
00:59:40,580 --> 00:59:45,380
Yeah, but but but y'all can. 
You don't have to answer this. 

1171
00:59:45,380 --> 00:59:46,660
That was more of a joke than 
anything. 

1172
00:59:46,820 --> 00:59:49,020
But thanks for joining us for 
these this episode. 

1173
00:59:49,500 --> 00:59:52,460
As always, please subscribe to 
this please. 

1174
00:59:53,180 --> 00:59:56,340
Subscribe to this podcast and 
leave a review that really helps

1175
00:59:56,340 --> 00:59:58,660
this thing grow. 
We appreciate you following 

1176
00:59:58,660 --> 01:00:01,380
along with us, and if you're on 
YouTube, please subscribe there 

1177
01:00:01,380 --> 01:00:03,140
as well. 
You can follow our other 

1178
01:00:03,140 --> 01:00:07,700
information on on YouTube and 
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1179
01:00:07,700 --> 01:00:10,140
pretty much anywhere that you 
would get socials, including 

1180
01:00:10,140 --> 01:00:12,060
Threads, so we'll see you all 
next time.