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This episode of The Doctors of 
Running Podcast is sponsored by 

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Running Warehouse. 
Summer is all about logging 

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miles and gearing up for the 
busy fall racing season. 

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New daily trainers from Hoka, 
Skechers, Adidas and more are 

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ready to help you tackle your 
training. 

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The Hoka Clifton Nine has been a
favorite of the team in 2023. 

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The shoe still provides the Max 
cushion and lightweight feel of 

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its predecessors, with a 
responsive new midsole and 

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surprisingly generous upper for 
those looking for something soft

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00:00:26,370 --> 00:00:28,890
and fun. 
The new Sketchers Go Run Ride 11

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and Max Road 6 feature one of 
the squishiest new foams of the 

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year with the introduction of 
Hyper Burst Ice. 

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And finally, for those looking 
for a shoe with all the bells 

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and whistles as you prepare for 
fast marathon miles, the 

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revamped Adidas Boston 12 
provides a return to form with a

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new Light Strike 2.0 midsole 
that helps make the newest 

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Boston feel lighter and softer 
than ever before. 

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You can find all these new 
trainers and more at 

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runningwarehouse.com. 
Hello everybody and welcome to 

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the Docs Running Podcast where 
we, a group of doctors of 

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physical therapy, discuss the 
art and science of running and 

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the stuff that we put on our 
feet. 

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Today I'm hosting, my name is 
Nathan and we have Dr. Matthew 

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Klein as well as two amazing 
guests that we've had on the 

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show before, but now we're all 
in one space Together. 

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We have Andrea Paulson and Corey
Hoffman from. 

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Saucony, they're here to help us
talk about the development of 

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Power Run HG as well as the 
upcoming Kinvara Pro. 

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And so we are so thrilled to 
have these people with us. 

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We've gotten to know them pretty
well, nerding out on footwear 

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and science and production and 
all these different things. 

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We have a very like mind when it
comes to how we look at shoes. 

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So it's always fun to get in the
same room and talk about this. 

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So Andrea and Corey, thanks so 
much for joining us on the 

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podcast. 
Super happy to be back. 

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We. 
Thanks for having. 

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Us. 
Absolutely. 

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We're pumped to have you. 
So before we have them introduce

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themselves a little bit further,
a couple reminders. 

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First, we've had, like I said, 
we've had them on the podcast 

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before. 
So if you want to hear Andrea 

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and Matt go into a conversation 
about materials and film 

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properties, you can check out 
Episode #95. 

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And Corey was on talking about 
running economy as well as 

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biomechanic stuff in episode 96.
So you can go back and hear them

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talk about kind of those 
specific topics. 

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And then today, again, we're 
going to get this deep. 

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Dive into these materials before
we do that our subjective for 

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the day, we just want to hear 
because we have people from 

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Saucony here with us. 
Tell us what your favorite 

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Saucony shoe is, so you can drop
that in the comments below. 

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And we're just curious to hear 
they've come out, they they 

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produce a pretty large range of 
footwear. 

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So curious to hear as as you can
kind of tell from what the 

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Kinvara is and what the Kinvara 
Pro is. 

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There's a big range of the types
of shoes being put out. 

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So curious so if you're if 
you're listening on YouTube you 

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can comment below feel free to 
share. 

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What your favorite Saucony shoe 
is? 

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So Andrea, could you just 
introduce yourself a little bit 

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for us and for everybody who may
not have heard your previous 

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episode? 
Yeah, for sure. 

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I spent a lot of time last time 
talking about what I do. 

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I think maybe this time I'll 
talk a little bit about who I 

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am, but I do. 
I lead the product engineering 

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team and the human performance 
and innovation lab at Saucony. 

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Product engineering covers 
everything from. 

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Technical blueprints, CAD 
builds, management of molded 

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parts lasts, the R&D and 
innovation work around new 

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materials and manufacturing 
modernization. 

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I said all of this last time, 
same thing on human performance 

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side. 
I'm gonna let Cory dig a little 

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deeper there, but it's the 
physical lab where we do all of 

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the mechanical, biomechanical 
and personal preference testing 

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across all of our product. 
The way I like to explain it is,

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is that engineering creates and 
iterates and then human 

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performance investigates and 
then validates. 

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But so more personally, I've 
been with Socne almost 20 years 

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now so it's it's not my first 
job out of school, but it is my 

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first in the industry. 
My degree is in the exercise 

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sciences and but I'd say my 
background is in. 

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Product development and 
engineering. 

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I actually started in product 
testing in the lab and then 

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moved into development for about
10 years before I took over 

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engineering and then eventually 
the lab as well. 

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I think in the footwear industry
though, it's a place where a lot

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of talent has degrees or 
backgrounds and something 

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unrelated to their job titles, 
which is great. 

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I think it brings diversity and 
adds creative perspective. 

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But I think I can think of a PLM
that has a degree in history. 

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That is not the case for the lab
engineering teams. 

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Mostly everyone has a targeted 
education in a similar field 

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like kinesiology or ergonomics, 
movement science, biomedical 

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engineering, mechanical 
engineering. 

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It's fairly specialized. 
The reason I say all of this is 

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I like to be really honest in 
these discussions. 

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I do not have an Ms. I don't 
have a PhD. 

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I don't even have an MBA. 
You guys know I'm married to a 

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DPT though, so that's probably 
good for like 1 transfer credit.

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Yeah, what I do have is 20 years
of technical shoe making 

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experience, dozens of overseas 
manufacturing trips, and a whole

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heck of a lot of failed 
projects. 

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That never saw the light of day 
and maybe a few that have done 

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okay, so that's probably the 
best recap for my experience. 

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Yeah, I love that. 
Thank you. 

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And Corey, what about you? 
I. 

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Don't know how anyone can follow
that, but so for those of you 

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who haven't listened to the last
episode with me, my name's Corey

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Hoffman. 
I'm a performance engineer in 

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the lab, working very closely 
with Andrea and the rest of the 

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engineering team. 
My background is in biomedical 

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engineering, where I studied at 
TCNJ. 

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Like one of your colleagues at 
the doctor's running, I studied 

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bio mechanics and mechanical 
engineering at Penn State. 

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Sorry, Nate. 
Yeah, I still I forgot about. 

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That part I forgot. 
Otherwise you may not have had. 

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That blind side to do last time.
I'm not sure if you knew that 

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about me, but it's okay. 
Yeah, I didn't. 

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That's pretty stunned, yeah. 
And so I I didn't. 

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I've been in the Fobra industry 
now for two years, all at 

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Sokney. 
Before that I've had a couple of

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different roles in mostly kind 
of bridging the gap between 

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engineering and research. 
I've worked for a commercial 

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fitness equipment manufacturer 
for multiple different ones and 

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also. 
I've worked for an engineering 

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Consulting Group analyzing and 
investigating exoskeleton design

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and use for the Department of 
Defense. 

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So. 
So I've had, I've been very 

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fortunate throughout my career 
to have a lot of interesting 

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applications of the same kind of
core fundamental scientific 

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principles of of biomechanics 
and engineering, just kind of 

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applying them to different 
realms, so. 

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Really, really fortunate to be 
where I am, really love working 

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on the team at Saucony and 
really excited to be here to 

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chat more about what we do. 
Awesome. 

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Well, again, we always record 
these on Sunday nights. 

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Today is also Father's Day, 
which I know Father's Day means 

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a lot of things to different 
people, whether if it's good or 

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bad. 
I know it hits people in 

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different ways, but either way, 
for for y'all to give up a 

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Sunday night on a day where 
people spend time together and 

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with family, we're just thankful
that you gave up that time to be

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with us. 
So excited to go into this. 

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Conversation and where we want 
to start is talking about a 

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phone, talking about power run 
HG. 

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So for those of you who haven't 
heard about power and HG before 

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where you saw it debuted was in 
their sakeny endorphin elite, 

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which was a new kind of I hate 
to I'm always scared to say this

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in front of the people who 
created the shoe. 

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You know like where we see it as
this you know like elite long 

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distance racing shoe that's got 
a lot of stack underneath. 

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It has a pretty aggressive 
rocker geometry that's different

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than the. 
Other models that we've seen 

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from them including the 
Endorphin Pro 2 and the 

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Endorphin Pro 3. 
And so it's constructed a little

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bit different. 
It's got a very unique upper, 

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kind of, you know, trying to 
minimize as much weight as 

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possible through that upper 
while still keeping it secure. 

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And then obviously the big part 
is the foam. 

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So they have this new foam, it's
called HG and we just want to 

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talk a little bit more about 
kind of where this foam came 

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from. 
But maybe a place to start is 

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just understanding kind of the 
history of the development of. 

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Foam in general and what is 
research and development look 

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like for that, Just kind of that
realm of things. 

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Yeah, I think I'd like to say 
first that the last couple of 

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your episodes they've posted, 
they're gonna dovetail really 

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nicely into this conversation, 
at least I hope, right. 

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So getting right into it, right,
if you've heard me to speak at 

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all about product in the last 
five or six years it's been. 

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My perspective that the future 
of the running industry lies 

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entirely within polymer science 
and midsole cushioning 

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technology. 
The last time, last year I was 

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on this podcast, we talked about
super foam and I put those in 

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quotations, right And what it 
is, what quantifies this such 

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and how prolific it could 
become. 

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And I think you're starting to 
see that future arrives now 

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every brand has that new and 
improved midsole technology and 

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that gap analysis between a 
super shoes, super foam and 

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inline technology is closing, I 
think probably at an incredible 

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rate. 
You know, I'd add that. 

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So I think for today we'll get 
into the weeds on power and HG 

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and it's in more detail about 
foam testing and Rd. but I think

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it. 
Like you said, Nathan, it'd be 

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helpful to know why you might 
not care about Power Run, HG. 

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You might not care about the 
Endorphin Elite, the other two 

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shoes that we released with that
foam. 

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It might not be the shoe for 
you. 

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You might not even believe a 
word I have to say about all of 

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these benefits and and think 
it's all marketing BS. 

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I swear it's not. 
But I I understand your 

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perspective there. 
But what you should care about 

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is what it means for the 
industry, the work we do on 

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these. 
Super shoes again in quotations,

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super foams the up upfront 
costs. 

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The research to make these 
pinnacle products is what often,

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and I'll say that again often 
drives the and encourages 

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innovation downstream. 
But if you think about it, the 

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Eva of today is super foam of 
the early 2000s. 

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That's sort of a quarry quote. 
I'm gonna steal it though it's 

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it's it's that much better. 
So, you know, I'd be so bold to 

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say what's undeniable about 
these foams. 

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They're more, we'll call it 
protective. 

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And I say this all the time. 
After a marathon, you see far 

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fewer people hobbling down a set
of stairs backwards. 

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And why is that? 
It's the shoes. 

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Yeah, May I be so bold? 
Right. 

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And I'm not trying to stir 
things up between thens and 

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nows. 
Yeah, nutrition is better, yet 

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physical care is better. 
I sure assume that training 

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tactics are better. 
But footwear innovation cannot 

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be discounted or discredited 
when it comes to wear and tear 

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on the body if miles are equal, 
right? 

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So. 
And we don't. 

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I don't want to go down the 
injury rabbit injury rate rabbit

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hole, that's a whole separate 
topic for you for you. 

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But but just isolating the 
advantages of Mitzel cushioning,

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why wouldn't you want that in 
everyday product. 

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So when we start talking about 
power run HG what is power run 

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HG? 
It's a it's a PEBA based super 

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critically foamed high 
resiliency Mitzel. 

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Obviously, if you aren't a 
chemist, that means next to 

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nothing. 
That means, yeah, so, so PEBA, 

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PEBA is, is the base 
thermoplastic elastomer resin 

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that that we build the foam out 
of. 

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And I'm sure people are gaining 
familiarity with this at this 

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00:12:24,090 --> 00:12:28,290
point, right, like polyether 
block amide or amide and it's 

228
00:12:28,730 --> 00:12:32,210
very lightweight, super strong, 
yet incredibly flexible, 

229
00:12:32,210 --> 00:12:35,130
energetic material, super 
critically foamed. 

230
00:12:35,510 --> 00:12:38,350
Refers to the manufacturing 
process. 

231
00:12:39,190 --> 00:12:43,230
And if we So what we do, we have
to take this hard, rigid 

232
00:12:43,350 --> 00:12:47,550
starting form and you have to 
make it a soft, pliable, 

233
00:12:47,550 --> 00:12:51,790
finished part. 
And to do that you saturate the 

234
00:12:51,790 --> 00:12:54,710
PEBA compound with a 
supercritical fluid, which is a 

235
00:12:54,710 --> 00:12:57,990
phase somewhere between gas and 
a liquid, right? 

236
00:12:58,150 --> 00:13:00,870
Eighth grade Earth science 
taught you wrong. 

237
00:13:00,870 --> 00:13:02,230
There are more than three 
phases. 

238
00:13:03,140 --> 00:13:07,340
You do that inside an autoclave,
so a pressure cooker or a vacuum

239
00:13:07,340 --> 00:13:10,340
oven. 
So you heat it and then as you 

240
00:13:10,420 --> 00:13:15,260
as pressure is induced the part 
grows right and it draws in that

241
00:13:15,260 --> 00:13:18,380
supercritical gas. 
And then at vitrification with 

242
00:13:19,660 --> 00:13:23,500
stabilization or solidifying you
left with this midsole. 

243
00:13:23,500 --> 00:13:26,660
That's very molecularly 
consistent. 

244
00:13:26,660 --> 00:13:29,740
So, so micro molecularly 
consistent actually. 

245
00:13:29,740 --> 00:13:32,140
So like very, very small tightly
formed bubbles. 

246
00:13:32,690 --> 00:13:37,570
And that combination is what 
gets of PEBA and the SCF process

247
00:13:37,570 --> 00:13:40,930
is what gets you this super high
resilient foam. 

248
00:13:41,810 --> 00:13:44,170
Now where are we going next? 
Resilience. 

249
00:13:44,890 --> 00:13:46,930
Yeah, probably. 
Yeah, probably resilient, right.

250
00:13:48,170 --> 00:13:52,930
Yeah, So what's resiliency? 
Matt and David, you guys did an 

251
00:13:52,930 --> 00:13:55,010
awesome whole episode on this, 
right? 

252
00:13:55,010 --> 00:13:56,970
Like exploring that word. 
So I'm not gonna belabor that 

253
00:13:56,970 --> 00:13:58,930
point, but it's it's semantics, 
right? 

254
00:13:58,930 --> 00:14:02,410
It's. 
It's an adjective game like pop,

255
00:14:02,410 --> 00:14:07,650
rebound, return, bounce, 
responsiveness bringing us, 

256
00:14:07,650 --> 00:14:10,050
yeah, responsiveness, that's 
that's resiliency. 

257
00:14:10,450 --> 00:14:13,970
So the way we test for it and 
and I went into this a little 

258
00:14:13,970 --> 00:14:17,050
bit last time, we have an 
install machine, it's a tabletop

259
00:14:17,050 --> 00:14:21,650
piston that precisely measures, 
measures the dynamic material 

260
00:14:21,650 --> 00:14:25,970
properties and we impact test 
the phone mechanically. 

261
00:14:25,970 --> 00:14:29,330
So we load the material and then
we unload the material. 

262
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,400
Then we look at the difference 
between the deformation, which 

263
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,040
we'll say absorption, and then 
the rebound, which we'll call 

264
00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:39,440
that energy return, right. 
So if you math out those two 

265
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,400
differences, you get energy 
efficiency of the foam and 

266
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,760
that's the the the energy 
efficiency of power run Hg is 

267
00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,040
95%. 
Now I do want to clear up one 

268
00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:56,360
thing, the difference between 
impacting the foam alone. 

269
00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,160
And then the finished shoe, when
I say 95%, I'm talking about the

270
00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:05,080
foam because when you add in an 
upper and an out hole, if 

271
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,360
there's a plate, any of the shoe
construction that can change the

272
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,120
outcome of this test. 
So it's also super important to 

273
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:16,400
remember that the foam 
efficiency and the shoe 

274
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:20,400
efficiency improvements, I would
say wall correlated. 

275
00:15:20,850 --> 00:15:25,730
Do not ensure better human 
efficiency which improvements 

276
00:15:25,730 --> 00:15:30,250
which is running economy right. 
So I I just, I I know in 

277
00:15:30,450 --> 00:15:33,530
listening to previous episodes 
like I think that's a it's an 

278
00:15:33,530 --> 00:15:37,370
important point to focus on. 
Yeah, so I meant did. 

279
00:15:37,370 --> 00:15:37,890
You. 
That was a lot. 

280
00:15:38,010 --> 00:15:38,650
Yeah. 
I'm sorry. 

281
00:15:38,650 --> 00:15:39,370
End. 
Up for a second. 

282
00:15:39,730 --> 00:15:41,890
No, it's great. 
I think one of the key things 

283
00:15:41,890 --> 00:15:44,650
that people might forget because
we like to think about things in

284
00:15:44,650 --> 00:15:47,810
isolation, but this is a system 
just like human beings, right? 

285
00:15:47,810 --> 00:15:49,730
You can't think about the shoe 
in isolation because you're 

286
00:15:49,730 --> 00:15:51,410
going. 
You need to talk about the whole

287
00:15:51,410 --> 00:15:53,690
human being and how they as an 
individual react. 

288
00:15:53,690 --> 00:15:57,290
Not going, yeah, this shoe says 
X percent and like improvement 

289
00:15:57,290 --> 00:16:00,050
economy is like that might be 
totally different based on. 

290
00:16:00,540 --> 00:16:02,740
That unique individual, but also
thinking about what all the 

291
00:16:02,740 --> 00:16:06,180
components of the shoot be it 
out, so mid soul in soul which I

292
00:16:06,180 --> 00:16:08,340
got to give credit because you 
have. 

293
00:16:10,630 --> 00:16:12,670
Had a lot of shoes recently 
where you've really done some 

294
00:16:12,670 --> 00:16:14,790
great work with the insoles, 
where the insoles used to be 

295
00:16:14,790 --> 00:16:16,950
just pure, like that was kind of
an afterthought. 

296
00:16:16,950 --> 00:16:19,270
And now we're seeing some of the
same materials used in the 

297
00:16:19,270 --> 00:16:21,670
midsole actually put into the 
insole as well. 

298
00:16:21,670 --> 00:16:24,510
Because you're like, yeah, this 
is the first thing that people 

299
00:16:24,510 --> 00:16:27,310
interact with when they land. 
And that actually makes a huge 

300
00:16:27,550 --> 00:16:30,790
impact, we know from literature 
on perception of the ride, so 

301
00:16:30,790 --> 00:16:33,230
which is also important, think 
about that was me also going too

302
00:16:33,230 --> 00:16:33,750
long. 
It's right. 

303
00:16:34,870 --> 00:16:37,080
So I. 
I have some questions too. 

304
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,000
So one just to clarify to just 
for those who may not have heard

305
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,360
an episode on the idea of impact
testing. 

306
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,360
You're basically saying that the
like the compression of the foam

307
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,160
from the impact or let's say it 
went 100 millimeters, just 

308
00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,040
that's never like what actually 
happens. 

309
00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:53,840
Let's say it went 100 
millimeters maybe that is, I 

310
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,960
don't know what their energy 
return for this shoe would be. 

311
00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,880
It came back 95 and then there's
five that did not come back or 

312
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,520
is that not how that's how 
that's quantified or how that's 

313
00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:08,569
made sense of? 
No, not not quite. 

314
00:17:09,690 --> 00:17:12,890
So compliance. 
So when we say compliance we 

315
00:17:12,890 --> 00:17:15,849
basically mean deformation and 
and this gets into the 

316
00:17:15,849 --> 00:17:19,130
difference between elastic and 
Vista elastic materials and 

317
00:17:19,130 --> 00:17:20,970
Young's law and stress strain 
curves. 

318
00:17:20,970 --> 00:17:23,930
But I don't want to go down too 
much of A rabbit hole but like 

319
00:17:24,089 --> 00:17:27,450
stress strain curves are they 
create a hysteresis. 

320
00:17:27,450 --> 00:17:31,690
So if you if you load, if you 
load and then unload a material,

321
00:17:32,770 --> 00:17:34,970
all right, if you're listening 
imagine a banana. 

322
00:17:35,460 --> 00:17:37,700
OK. 
And the backside of the banana 

323
00:17:37,980 --> 00:17:41,180
is, is loading and then the 
belly side of the banana is 

324
00:17:41,180 --> 00:17:45,060
unloading the space between the 
loaded and unloaded values. 

325
00:17:45,060 --> 00:17:49,580
So, so how skinny your banana is
is the amount of energy lost. 

326
00:17:49,580 --> 00:17:52,980
So a skinny banana is very 
efficient. 

327
00:17:53,220 --> 00:17:57,820
So if there's 5% in between the 
the the, the, the curves, that's

328
00:17:57,820 --> 00:18:00,420
95% efficient. 
So then then we start getting 

329
00:18:00,420 --> 00:18:02,700
into dynamic compression set and
what all that means we sort of 

330
00:18:02,700 --> 00:18:04,980
fly off the backswing. 
But did that answer? 

331
00:18:05,650 --> 00:18:08,250
No, I think that that's exactly 
what I was hoping to go into 

332
00:18:08,250 --> 00:18:11,850
because I think it's hard to 
conceptualize the idea of if I 

333
00:18:11,850 --> 00:18:14,170
compress the foam and it only 
comes back a certain amount, 

334
00:18:14,170 --> 00:18:16,330
wouldn't it just flatten out 
after 20 steps. 

335
00:18:16,890 --> 00:18:19,250
So it's not how much the foam is
coming back, it's that 

336
00:18:19,250 --> 00:18:21,290
hysteresis curve. 
So that I think that's really 

337
00:18:21,330 --> 00:18:23,890
that's that's helpful. 
The other question I had in 

338
00:18:23,890 --> 00:18:28,650
terms of development of power 
and HG, you said it has this 95%

339
00:18:28,690 --> 00:18:32,040
energy return. 
What did your what does Power 

340
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:36,800
Run PB have and how are they 
made differently that allows 

341
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:38,200
that to happen? 
Yeah. 

342
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:43,600
It's it's an excellent question.
So we, I think we published PB 

343
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:52,520
at you know just under 90% and 
PB is a super critically foamed 

344
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:59,270
beaded. 
Polymer so So you take the 

345
00:18:59,270 --> 00:19:04,190
resin, you extrude it through a 
tube and you create and then you

346
00:19:04,190 --> 00:19:07,910
chop it into little beads and 
then those beads are super 

347
00:19:07,910 --> 00:19:11,910
critically foamed and then 
bolted together. 

348
00:19:11,910 --> 00:19:16,030
So you have this extra skin that
you get from the beads. 

349
00:19:16,350 --> 00:19:21,960
It's also. 
The I guess getting into one of 

350
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,440
the critiques on PB, I'm sorry, 
critiques on HG is probably a 

351
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:27,800
good way to explain the 
difference. 

352
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,360
Sure, one of the critiques on on
HG is that it it feels a little 

353
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,400
firm and and that has to do with
the mechanics of the 

354
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,040
viscoelastic properties. 
This is gonna sound like this is

355
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,720
probably gonna sound like 
nonsense but but in polymer 

356
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:47,000
science there's a big difference
between hardness and stiffness. 

357
00:19:47,380 --> 00:19:49,980
And that yeah, I know that 
sounds ridiculous if if you're 

358
00:19:49,980 --> 00:19:53,180
just a layperson but like 
hardness is the topical surface 

359
00:19:53,380 --> 00:19:56,460
deformation measurement. 
So durometer and and there's a 

360
00:19:56,460 --> 00:19:59,140
reason why you don't hear many 
of us talk about durometer 

361
00:19:59,140 --> 00:20:02,420
anymore it's it's almost 
irrelevant it's it's more of a 

362
00:20:02,420 --> 00:20:04,980
byproduct of modern these modern
foams. 

363
00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:09,940
I swear on my parents ashes like
P bit Hg is soft. 

364
00:20:10,220 --> 00:20:13,740
It's like a low 40s durometer. 
It is not a hard phone. 

365
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,440
Yeah, so but however I you know 
I I can I can understand and I 

366
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,560
hear why some folks might find 
it stiff and and perceive that 

367
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,600
as firm. 
So stiffness is the elastic 

368
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,200
deformation under load. 
So the the inverse of stiffness 

369
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,520
is compliance. 
So I'll repeat that the inverse 

370
00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:38,200
of stiffness is compliance. 
So, so this really shoots us 

371
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,480
right into the nuance of of 
human biomechanics and gate 

372
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,180
specifics and pace and. 
And frankly, shoe design, 

373
00:20:46,140 --> 00:20:50,380
geometry and construction, so 
when we play with the forces and

374
00:20:50,380 --> 00:20:54,820
contact time and energy 
efficiency, it can dramatically 

375
00:20:54,820 --> 00:20:57,500
change the perception under 
foot. 

376
00:20:57,700 --> 00:21:02,940
So how people perceive stiffness
or compliance is incredibly 

377
00:21:02,940 --> 00:21:07,060
personal. 
And probably worthy of a a whole

378
00:21:07,060 --> 00:21:09,740
nother episode but sure but 
that's but that's why we have 

379
00:21:09,740 --> 00:21:13,260
separate compounds. 
You know if if P but HG or the 

380
00:21:13,260 --> 00:21:16,700
elite geometry doesn't work for 
you individually we have other 

381
00:21:16,700 --> 00:21:21,940
options that should like PB 
which is more compliant and you 

382
00:21:21,940 --> 00:21:24,260
have to remember in our 
positions as as footwear 

383
00:21:24,260 --> 00:21:27,460
manufacturers it's it's easy to 
take our existing molds and put 

384
00:21:27,460 --> 00:21:30,060
different materials into them 
and see what changes for the 

385
00:21:30,060 --> 00:21:32,060
human like that's how we test it
so. 

386
00:21:32,460 --> 00:21:36,900
Yeah. 
So, so then with the and if I 

387
00:21:36,900 --> 00:21:39,100
guess either of you can take 
these questions too, because I'm

388
00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:41,580
starting to dip into some of 
that stuff that you might see in

389
00:21:41,580 --> 00:21:45,060
the lab, Corey. 
So when you had this new foam, 

390
00:21:45,060 --> 00:21:49,700
this HG and maybe the first step
you did is you put it in an 

391
00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:51,780
existing mold that you already 
had or something. 

392
00:21:51,940 --> 00:21:54,260
How did you end up with the 
geometry that you have because 

393
00:21:54,260 --> 00:21:56,540
it is from from what we can 
perceive here? 

394
00:21:56,850 --> 00:21:59,770
Like a later stage rocker, a 
little bit more sharp angle 

395
00:21:59,770 --> 00:22:02,170
here. 
How did you end up on the 

396
00:22:02,170 --> 00:22:05,890
geometry that you did and what 
were you seeing between kind of 

397
00:22:05,890 --> 00:22:09,330
like the types of people who 
benefited from one or the other?

398
00:22:09,330 --> 00:22:11,010
Is that part of the testing 
process? 

399
00:22:12,690 --> 00:22:14,890
It's definitely part of the 
testing process. 

400
00:22:14,890 --> 00:22:17,730
It's we did it a little 
differently. 

401
00:22:17,770 --> 00:22:21,850
We backed into Hg, not into PB 
and not out of PB. 

402
00:22:22,660 --> 00:22:27,500
So we mechanically tested HG and
found out how spectacular it 

403
00:22:27,500 --> 00:22:31,500
was. 
So what we wanted to do was 

404
00:22:31,500 --> 00:22:36,100
create a different ride profile.
It's not just about using and 

405
00:22:36,100 --> 00:22:39,300
leveraging an awesome foam, it's
it's also about creating 

406
00:22:39,300 --> 00:22:41,740
different rides and different 
experiences for different 

407
00:22:41,740 --> 00:22:45,500
runners. 
The the slotted plate is much 

408
00:22:45,500 --> 00:22:50,100
more accommodating from landing 
lateral to moving through stance

409
00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:52,700
and and. 
Excuse me, mid sans and out. 

410
00:22:52,700 --> 00:22:55,980
So that provides a different 
ride characteristic than the 

411
00:22:55,980 --> 00:22:58,980
solid plate in the pro. 
The materials obviously as we 

412
00:22:58,980 --> 00:23:01,740
just talked about that's gonna 
have a different perception 

413
00:23:01,740 --> 00:23:07,540
under foot, the aggressive toe 
spring is definitely. 

414
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:13,400
Not for everyone, I would say. 
I think some people love it. 

415
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:15,680
I sort of wish David was on the 
call. 

416
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:18,720
Yeah, that does too. 
Yeah. 

417
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,680
But but some people feel like 
it's not in the right position. 

418
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:28,120
You're not on the right it, it's
not on the the correct cadence 

419
00:23:28,120 --> 00:23:29,360
with you. 
That's I shouldn't use that 

420
00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:30,360
word. 
But yeah. 

421
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,320
And Corey, please feel free to 
jump in on the testing side if 

422
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,120
you'd like. 
Also Corey, before you jump in 

423
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:42,960
just to just to fill this in for
for David, you know y'all 

424
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,840
created a shoe that he chose 
over the alpha fly which we 

425
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,200
joked at him all the time like 
that dude, Like literally he 

426
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,280
would tell us on a Thursday I'm 
going to race in X shoe and then

427
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,330
he's like. 
Yeah, I just put the alpha fly 

428
00:23:56,330 --> 00:23:59,170
in my bag just in case, and I 
laced him up and he'll race in 

429
00:23:59,170 --> 00:24:01,210
the alpha fly anyway. 
So the fact that he laced up 

430
00:24:01,210 --> 00:24:04,970
that shoe for a marathon and he 
did PR in that race and all that

431
00:24:04,970 --> 00:24:08,530
stuff, had a good day like that 
does say something from like an 

432
00:24:08,530 --> 00:24:12,330
experience for a guy like him 
that that is. 

433
00:24:12,410 --> 00:24:14,620
And I. 
I haven't ran in the alpha fly, 

434
00:24:14,620 --> 00:24:17,380
but from a compliance feeling 
standpoint, those have got to be

435
00:24:17,380 --> 00:24:19,340
very different underfoot 
experiences. 

436
00:24:19,340 --> 00:24:22,740
Matt, you've you've ran in both,
so we don't have to belabor 

437
00:24:22,740 --> 00:24:25,100
that, but there's there's 
David's presence with us. 

438
00:24:25,100 --> 00:24:27,100
It was him choosing the shoe for
his marathon. 

439
00:24:27,100 --> 00:24:28,540
We were. 
Quite proud. 

440
00:24:28,860 --> 00:24:30,660
We will see that. 
That's cool. 

441
00:24:31,340 --> 00:24:34,820
I I would like to go back for a 
quick second because Andrea, I 

442
00:24:34,820 --> 00:24:37,810
think you did a great job. 
Talking about the difference 

443
00:24:37,810 --> 00:24:41,250
between why derometer really 
isn't frequently discussed 

444
00:24:41,250 --> 00:24:44,290
versus something like compliance
or stiffness and it's the kind 

445
00:24:44,290 --> 00:24:45,970
of the same. 
The analogy I would use for that

446
00:24:45,970 --> 00:24:52,410
is why we talk about static like
posture versus active movement 

447
00:24:52,410 --> 00:24:54,530
retail students. 
I was going, yeah, sorry, like a

448
00:24:54,530 --> 00:24:57,530
lot of those static measurements
that people take be it foot 

449
00:24:57,530 --> 00:25:00,170
scanner, stuff like that, that 
really doesn't give you vital 

450
00:25:00,170 --> 00:25:03,250
like product information about 
what the human being or even the

451
00:25:03,250 --> 00:25:07,460
product is going to do versus. 
The compliance or the stiffness 

452
00:25:07,540 --> 00:25:10,420
actually looks at what is 
happening when you're loading 

453
00:25:10,420 --> 00:25:13,300
this thing which is much more 
functional, which is and things 

454
00:25:13,300 --> 00:25:16,460
can vary completely. 
Durometer and compliance i.e. 

455
00:25:16,460 --> 00:25:19,460
stiffness can be related. 
They can also be completely 

456
00:25:19,580 --> 00:25:23,740
unrelated and not really, just 
like static posture often 

457
00:25:23,780 --> 00:25:25,740
doesn't relate to what you'll 
see with movement. 

458
00:25:25,740 --> 00:25:26,860
It's a nice place to start to 
go. 

459
00:25:26,860 --> 00:25:29,580
I wonder what's going to happen,
but it's not the final picture. 

460
00:25:29,580 --> 00:25:32,700
You have to look at things 
moving or under load, which is 

461
00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:34,420
why some people want a thing 
that because it's. 

462
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,600
Easier to measure drama, right? 
You can push into the shoe, but 

463
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,880
you're not loading it. 
It's way harder to measure 

464
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,200
stiffness, right? 
That takes much more 

465
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,520
sophisticated machinery and 
things like that. 

466
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,320
But it's this exact same 
concept. 

467
00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:49,720
I think going you got to look at
this while people are moving 

468
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,680
under load, because that's more 
functional. 

469
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:53,400
Yeah, and at different paces, 
too. 

470
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,360
You know, you might love the 
shoe at a slow pace, but you 

471
00:25:56,360 --> 00:25:58,600
might not love it at a fast pace
or vice versa. 

472
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,890
Well, yeah. 
More on that later. 

473
00:26:01,330 --> 00:26:05,050
Yeah, and it might even be worth
just to differentiate for the 

474
00:26:05,050 --> 00:26:10,250
listeners the difference between
stiffness, meaning the 

475
00:26:11,530 --> 00:26:15,250
essentially, if you imagine in 
your head the banana that Andrea

476
00:26:15,250 --> 00:26:18,770
already drew in your head a 
couple minutes ago, where 

477
00:26:19,090 --> 00:26:22,890
essentially the slope at any 
point along that banana can be 

478
00:26:22,890 --> 00:26:25,530
considered the stiffness, but 
it's probably worth 

479
00:26:25,530 --> 00:26:27,570
differentiating between that 
and. 

480
00:26:28,030 --> 00:26:31,110
The actual amount of force it 
takes to bend the entire shoe. 

481
00:26:32,150 --> 00:26:36,950
So one is a kind of shoe slash 
geometry property, right? 

482
00:26:36,950 --> 00:26:40,590
You know how much force does it 
take to bend for the listeners? 

483
00:26:40,590 --> 00:26:45,790
I just picked up a shoe and bent
it lengthwise versus the 

484
00:26:46,470 --> 00:26:49,110
material property of the midsole
itself. 

485
00:26:49,110 --> 00:26:52,390
So actually or the foam, you 
know, generically any foam where

486
00:26:52,390 --> 00:26:56,870
you apply a force to it and look
at the amount it displaces and 

487
00:26:56,870 --> 00:26:59,530
the. 
Ratio essentially of how much it

488
00:26:59,530 --> 00:27:02,930
displaces for the amount of 
force you apply would be 

489
00:27:02,930 --> 00:27:05,490
because. 
Some some things get some things

490
00:27:05,490 --> 00:27:07,890
get stiffer. 
In that sense the faster you 

491
00:27:07,890 --> 00:27:10,090
load them. 
Is that is that an accurate 

492
00:27:10,090 --> 00:27:12,090
statement for some prop some 
materials? 

493
00:27:12,090 --> 00:27:14,290
Some materials. 
Yeah, not. 

494
00:27:14,290 --> 00:27:17,570
All so it'd be clear to 
differentiate what the how your 

495
00:27:17,570 --> 00:27:20,810
shoe bends That the term is 
longitudinal bending stiffness 

496
00:27:21,170 --> 00:27:25,730
versus the mid sole stiffness is
a different concept and people 

497
00:27:25,730 --> 00:27:28,020
need to be aware of that, right?
I think that's why we use 

498
00:27:28,020 --> 00:27:30,700
compliance more often. 
That makes sense. 

499
00:27:30,860 --> 00:27:33,660
Yes. 
So, Corey, are there any things 

500
00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:37,460
when you've seen this tested in 
the lab in terms of preferences 

501
00:27:37,460 --> 00:27:42,220
or biomechanics or running 
economy, what sort of things 

502
00:27:42,220 --> 00:27:45,780
have you, just observations that
you've made when testing this 

503
00:27:45,780 --> 00:27:49,100
foam and if there's certain 
specifics you can't go into, we 

504
00:27:49,100 --> 00:27:53,210
get that so. 
Dora, my boss, my boss is on 

505
00:27:53,210 --> 00:27:56,450
with me, so if I start to 
divulge too much, I'm sure. 

506
00:27:56,450 --> 00:28:01,090
She'll stop me. 
Why did Cory's screen go play? 

507
00:28:04,890 --> 00:28:06,610
We worked out hand signals 
before the call. 

508
00:28:10,050 --> 00:28:12,330
Yes, so testing, it's 
interesting. 

509
00:28:12,690 --> 00:28:18,850
So certainly the Elite tests 
remarkably well in the lab for 

510
00:28:18,850 --> 00:28:21,640
variety. 
For for a variety of paces, for 

511
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:28,960
a variety of our testers, yeah. 
But interestingly it's not 100% 

512
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,640
of our testers test you know 
quote UN quote better and I'll 

513
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:38,120
say better as in better running 
economy in the Elite relative to

514
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:44,280
a handful of other our other 
shoes including Pro 3 and even 

515
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,680
Speed Three. 
So it really is highly a user 

516
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,750
dependent. 
But I will tell you for a large 

517
00:28:50,750 --> 00:28:54,430
percentage of people running 
economy will be superior in the 

518
00:28:54,430 --> 00:29:01,670
elite relative to a variety of 
our similarly designed product. 

519
00:29:04,110 --> 00:29:06,870
Have there been any patterns 
that have emerged with that, 

520
00:29:07,190 --> 00:29:12,230
with it within your product, or 
has it been too hard to nail 

521
00:29:12,230 --> 00:29:16,460
down what those variables are? 
That's a great question. 

522
00:29:16,940 --> 00:29:19,380
I'm not sure I would still have 
a job if I nailed the pattern 

523
00:29:19,380 --> 00:29:27,780
down exactly, but there may be 
some inklings of trends. 

524
00:29:27,860 --> 00:29:32,780
But I think we'll need closer to
8 billion data points than what 

525
00:29:32,780 --> 00:29:35,020
we have now to really land on 
that. 

526
00:29:36,380 --> 00:29:40,940
And that's honestly super smart.
Just as I'm processing like your

527
00:29:40,940 --> 00:29:43,700
ability to answer that question,
there's a lot more that you've 

528
00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:46,780
observed how smart it is to 
start talking about those things

529
00:29:46,780 --> 00:29:50,900
makes a difference because we 
even, so I work help, I help at 

530
00:29:50,900 --> 00:29:54,860
a DPT program and we talk about 
admissions and we talk about how

531
00:29:54,860 --> 00:29:58,060
do we, you know do that well 
holistically and all this stuff 

532
00:29:58,060 --> 00:30:00,900
and finding the right amount of 
data points to make admissions 

533
00:30:00,900 --> 00:30:02,940
decisions. 
If you start using just like oh 

534
00:30:02,940 --> 00:30:05,820
let in last year's cohort we 
noticed these things if you've 

535
00:30:05,820 --> 00:30:10,780
got four people that fall into. 
That's not enough to make a 

536
00:30:10,940 --> 00:30:14,260
decision that could, you know, 
really change, you know, a 

537
00:30:14,260 --> 00:30:17,460
direction of a whole industry 
or, you know in this case, 

538
00:30:17,460 --> 00:30:19,620
individuals who want to become 
PTS. 

539
00:30:19,620 --> 00:30:23,660
So there's wisdom in waiting 
until you have 800,000 data 

540
00:30:23,660 --> 00:30:27,260
points or at least enough to 
create some power in in the in 

541
00:30:27,260 --> 00:30:29,320
the decisions. 
So okay. 

542
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,120
So it's funny, y'all listen to 
our podcast which still cracks 

543
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,800
me up but that means I can kind 
of reference back to a couple 

544
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,040
things from last time. 
But one of the questions that we

545
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:43,000
did last week on the buy or sell
episode was should we get rid of

546
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,760
EDA foam and so and and throw, 
you know this PEBA and all these

547
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,440
super critical PEBA based foams.
Should that be what we use for 

548
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,680
everyday stuff when y'all think 
about power and HG and what you 

549
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,140
have with it? 
What do you envision doing with 

550
00:30:57,140 --> 00:30:59,700
that foam? 
Do you see it replacing your, 

551
00:30:59,980 --> 00:31:02,940
you know, power run foam and 
getting rid of Eva? 

552
00:31:02,940 --> 00:31:06,220
How does how do y'all as a team 
conceptualize that question? 

553
00:31:06,620 --> 00:31:11,660
Yeah, that was a fun one. 
No, we do not get, we do not 

554
00:31:11,660 --> 00:31:15,260
envision getting rid of of Eva 
foams, partially because of what

555
00:31:15,260 --> 00:31:17,940
I mentioned before. 
Eva foams are pretty good. 

556
00:31:18,820 --> 00:31:22,980
No, they they might not be 95% 
efficient, but they're over. 

557
00:31:23,180 --> 00:31:26,130
They're. 
Some of them can get pretty darn

558
00:31:26,130 --> 00:31:29,730
close and and a lot of that is 
because they're not pure Eva. 

559
00:31:29,730 --> 00:31:31,730
There's other stuff in them and 
they're at the same 

560
00:31:31,730 --> 00:31:36,450
manufacturing processes that you
can it leverage for for Pebas 

561
00:31:36,450 --> 00:31:39,850
and Tpus you you can also use in
in Evas. 

562
00:31:39,850 --> 00:31:48,330
So hard no it or yeah hard no. 
I was I I can't remember if buy 

563
00:31:48,330 --> 00:31:52,770
is yeah, yes or if it's buy and 
no. 

564
00:31:53,450 --> 00:31:59,890
I would say you you touched upon
really good bullet points in 

565
00:31:59,930 --> 00:32:02,570
answering those questions too. 
Cost is a big part of it. 

566
00:32:02,570 --> 00:32:08,610
PEBA is not inexpensive. 
Room sized autoclaves are are 

567
00:32:08,610 --> 00:32:11,250
not the most efficient way of 
making foams. 

568
00:32:11,890 --> 00:32:17,210
So there are a lot of reasons 
outside of the physical benefits

569
00:32:17,210 --> 00:32:21,170
of the foams. 
To not discard the Eva or other 

570
00:32:21,170 --> 00:32:26,290
materials you know or abandoning
pus for different reasons. 

571
00:32:26,290 --> 00:32:32,930
But the other thing is if used 
in combination which I actually 

572
00:32:32,930 --> 00:32:36,010
think was an answer to a 
different buy sell question 

573
00:32:36,010 --> 00:32:39,730
further down the line. 
But the idea that if you can 

574
00:32:39,730 --> 00:32:43,610
combine these materials and use 
them spot target them and 

575
00:32:43,610 --> 00:32:48,100
construction wise. 
It doesn't make sense to abandon

576
00:32:48,100 --> 00:32:51,740
something that is perfectly 
useful, especially at doing 

577
00:32:51,740 --> 00:32:54,620
specific things. 
So that's my answer. 

578
00:32:55,220 --> 00:32:58,220
Corey, any other thoughts on it?
I don't disagree at all. 

579
00:32:59,940 --> 00:33:02,340
You know, I think you might have
even mentioned this in the 

580
00:33:02,340 --> 00:33:07,420
episode, but there's a 
sustainability story and also a 

581
00:33:07,420 --> 00:33:12,700
price story for every single 
material, and some of that could

582
00:33:12,700 --> 00:33:14,340
be related to, you know, how 
much. 

583
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,760
Carbon it takes to make the 
material or to run the factory 

584
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,080
that makes the material but also
could just be the durability of 

585
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,440
the shoe itself. 
If you have to throw it in a 

586
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,760
landfill after 100 miles versus 
400 miles, then there's a a big 

587
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,240
story there as well. 
So you know, we like to think of

588
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,880
it in terms of just one or two 
key properties, but there are 

589
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,440
dozens of properties that go 
into you know what what makes 

590
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,600
the material or ultimately a 
product, you know right for the 

591
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,280
right context. 
That makes me think of two 

592
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:47,120
questions actually really quick.
One is, you know, from a 

593
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,960
durability standpoint, when it 
comes to something like HG 

594
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,000
versus some of the Evas that you
have, is there a difference that

595
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,800
you'll notice there and what 
should we maybe expect from a 

596
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:57,720
foam like that to maintain those
properties? 

597
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,920
And then the second one was, I 
guess I'll say the second one, 

598
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:05,000
that's a big enough question, 
durability in HG. 

599
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:11,760
Yeah, so. 
It depends and I I know that's a

600
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,400
horrible answer to the question.
It depends on a lot of different

601
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,840
things, right? 
Like it depends on you and and 

602
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,080
your size and your gate 
characteristics and all of the 

603
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,360
things I know that you have 
discussed multiple times. 

604
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:26,920
But it also depends on how you 
make the foams. 

605
00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:30,679
You know a a bead foam is 
generally speaking more durable 

606
00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:35,000
than a a non beaded foam. 
It's that's not always the case.

607
00:34:37,870 --> 00:34:41,830
Tpu's are generally speaking 
more durable than Pbo's, which 

608
00:34:41,830 --> 00:34:44,110
are generally speaking more 
durable than Eva's. 

609
00:34:44,389 --> 00:34:47,909
That's not always the case. 
It really depends on a lot of 

610
00:34:47,909 --> 00:34:53,550
different things, but generally 
speaking the the number doesn't 

611
00:34:53,550 --> 00:34:57,310
change for what we suggest you 
get out of your your your 

612
00:34:57,430 --> 00:35:01,030
mileage pursue. 
So like mileage in the Elite 

613
00:35:01,030 --> 00:35:04,910
will be similar to your mileage 
in a ride 16 from a from a foam 

614
00:35:04,910 --> 00:35:07,750
property standpoint. 
Correct. 

615
00:35:07,990 --> 00:35:13,150
The I would say that there is a 
there is a big difference in our

616
00:35:13,150 --> 00:35:15,830
beaded foams, they are far more 
durable. 

617
00:35:16,430 --> 00:35:20,550
And so like your both types of 
beaded foams that you have, you 

618
00:35:20,550 --> 00:35:21,870
see that? 
Yes. 

619
00:35:22,110 --> 00:35:26,710
And Corey, do you feel 
comfortable talking a little bit

620
00:35:26,710 --> 00:35:31,070
about Power On Plus? 
Only uncomfortable in that the 

621
00:35:31,150 --> 00:35:34,590
results are so this is a fun 
take mind numbing to believe 

622
00:35:34,590 --> 00:35:39,920
but. 
Yeah, we've so in particular, so

623
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:46,240
Triumph 20/21 would have this 
Mitzel so power run plus and I 

624
00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:49,440
think that's even showing an 
example. 

625
00:35:49,720 --> 00:35:52,440
Yeah, you reviewed it recently. 
Yep, yes. 

626
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:58,400
So we're looking in particular 
at how to quantify how long the 

627
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,400
this Mitzel will last and 
maintain its mechanical 

628
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,640
properties over prolonged 
duration of running. 

629
00:36:07,350 --> 00:36:10,150
So we're we're investigating a 
couple of different ways to 

630
00:36:11,190 --> 00:36:15,470
mechanically impose the exact 
same amount of demand on the 

631
00:36:15,470 --> 00:36:20,230
shoe over a prolonged period of 
time and then measuring 

632
00:36:20,230 --> 00:36:22,830
something about the mechanical 
properties before that test and 

633
00:36:22,830 --> 00:36:25,230
then after that test. 
So we could quantify something 

634
00:36:25,230 --> 00:36:29,230
about the the decay and maybe we
assume it's linear or you know 

635
00:36:29,230 --> 00:36:33,870
nonlinear but you know just to 
look at the difference but we we

636
00:36:34,070 --> 00:36:39,070
are are struggling to. 
Find a test that's long enough 

637
00:36:39,070 --> 00:36:42,590
and abusive enough to actually 
result in the decay in the 

638
00:36:42,590 --> 00:36:48,270
midsole properties of Power Run 
Plus, and I'm sure we have legal

639
00:36:48,270 --> 00:36:53,710
and marketing folks from sockety
that are sweating right now as 

640
00:36:53,710 --> 00:36:56,910
I'm saying this. 
But hopefully it's it's a vague 

641
00:36:56,910 --> 00:36:59,750
and generic enough that's 
doesn't put us any significant 

642
00:36:59,750 --> 00:37:01,910
trouble. 
But yeah, we're it's it's a 

643
00:37:01,910 --> 00:37:05,390
remarkably durable foam and that
it will maintain its mechanical 

644
00:37:05,390 --> 00:37:09,790
properties. 
Over very high level of abuse. 

645
00:37:10,270 --> 00:37:13,790
Yeah, I'll say your outsole and 
your upper will fail before your

646
00:37:13,790 --> 00:37:16,070
Mitzel does. 
In the in the power and plus 

647
00:37:16,070 --> 00:37:18,750
situation. 
Which is usually not the case 

648
00:37:19,270 --> 00:37:22,030
because it's usually the 
opposite that not always right, 

649
00:37:22,030 --> 00:37:23,790
but sometimes. 
Usually the mitzel will flatten 

650
00:37:23,790 --> 00:37:28,510
out lot before the upper with 
some some people that can blow 

651
00:37:28,510 --> 00:37:31,230
through the other ones quicker. 
It's pretty cool. 

652
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,680
So you're using right now, 
you're using the human test, 

653
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,360
right. 
So remind me the device that you

654
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,920
use that and I should know this,
the device that you have where 

655
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,720
you test the compound properties
or the compliance is you just 

656
00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:45,000
keep that thing pounding into 
the missile that is called 

657
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,420
please remind me. 
Impactor or. 

658
00:37:48,500 --> 00:37:51,460
We we use an Instron for impact 
testing. 

659
00:37:51,460 --> 00:37:53,300
Yeah. 
We call it impact testing, yeah.

660
00:37:53,300 --> 00:37:56,500
So you're you're using the the 
variation on this is a human 

661
00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:59,220
component that when the 
impactors been on so long that 

662
00:37:59,220 --> 00:38:01,940
all the socket employees start 
using their PTO, you know that 

663
00:38:01,940 --> 00:38:03,660
that OK, this clearly, I'm just 
kidding. 

664
00:38:05,620 --> 00:38:08,180
You joke but. 
It is really annoying machine 

665
00:38:08,220 --> 00:38:12,240
the sitting here, yeah. 
I know. 

666
00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:15,320
I still remember like dud, dud, 
like wow, does does that ever 

667
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,680
get? 
There's a restaurant in Below 

668
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:22,280
are that that room that I'm sure
hates us, but. 

669
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,770
That's pretty cool. 
You're instead of leaving a bad 

670
00:38:25,770 --> 00:38:28,250
Yelp review, you just leave that
on exactly like for a couple 

671
00:38:28,250 --> 00:38:29,730
days. 
We can't talk about it here, but

672
00:38:29,730 --> 00:38:32,930
there will be stuff coming from 
a sustainability side of stuff. 

673
00:38:32,930 --> 00:38:35,250
I know it was previewed at the 
running event, so there's stuff 

674
00:38:35,250 --> 00:38:39,490
out on it, but as it relates to 
this conversation, so it'll be 

675
00:38:39,490 --> 00:38:42,170
interesting to see kind of 
what's coming out and how that 

676
00:38:42,170 --> 00:38:45,900
goes. 
So I wanted to ask kind of just 

677
00:38:45,900 --> 00:38:48,460
the follow up question and then 
we're going to segue into our 

678
00:38:48,460 --> 00:38:51,980
second part talking about the 
the Kinvara Pro. 

679
00:38:52,180 --> 00:38:56,420
But I want to ask when it comes 
to HG, you're not selling out on

680
00:38:56,660 --> 00:38:57,980
Eva that's going to stick 
around. 

681
00:38:57,980 --> 00:39:03,180
Do you see taking the HG and 
using it in daily shoes or do 

682
00:39:03,180 --> 00:39:06,740
you think it's not really worth 
it for like a daily training 

683
00:39:06,780 --> 00:39:10,300
shoe or how do you perceive that
or that kind of thing? 

684
00:39:10,460 --> 00:39:16,270
Yeah, I I think. 
Whether it's HG or PB we have, 

685
00:39:16,270 --> 00:39:21,110
we have plans I I you know HG 
has some unique properties about

686
00:39:21,110 --> 00:39:24,630
it and in terms of manufacturing
that that is going to probably 

687
00:39:24,630 --> 00:39:29,670
keep it price wise out of some 
of the everyday product just 

688
00:39:29,830 --> 00:39:35,190
it's that's it's unreasonable at
some perspective but. 

689
00:39:37,460 --> 00:39:41,220
I guess to sort of answer that 
question I get asked, we get 

690
00:39:41,220 --> 00:39:43,500
asked a lot. 
You know is is too much energy 

691
00:39:43,500 --> 00:39:47,700
return a bad thing? 
To to which I always ask back 

692
00:39:49,180 --> 00:39:51,980
why, Why would you want less? 
Why do you want less energy 

693
00:39:51,980 --> 00:39:55,060
return? 
And if it's attenuation that you

694
00:39:55,060 --> 00:39:59,260
want or or the reduction of 
force, you can have that without

695
00:39:59,260 --> 00:40:01,350
compromising energy return. 
Right. 

696
00:40:01,510 --> 00:40:05,470
I I mean, physics wise you you 
can't be absorbing energy and 

697
00:40:05,470 --> 00:40:09,110
returning it at the same time. 
Foam wise, it it can't be done. 

698
00:40:09,230 --> 00:40:10,870
Cory and I were just talking 
about this on Friday. 

699
00:40:10,910 --> 00:40:12,910
It's the second law of 
thermodynamics, right? 

700
00:40:12,910 --> 00:40:16,270
Like if the foam isn't returning
energy back to you, you are just

701
00:40:16,270 --> 00:40:18,230
losing it. 
It's it becomes heat. 

702
00:40:18,950 --> 00:40:24,510
So and that loss of material 
properties in in running it 

703
00:40:24,630 --> 00:40:27,390
basically presents like running 
in sand. 

704
00:40:28,070 --> 00:40:29,750
Well at least the the extreme 
does. 

705
00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:34,870
So if we can't physically make a
return over 100% we can that's 

706
00:40:34,870 --> 00:40:40,830
the laws of physics and it can't
be you can't unload without 

707
00:40:40,830 --> 00:40:45,150
human dictating when right. 
It has to be post stance phase 

708
00:40:45,350 --> 00:40:48,990
right. 
So it's literally on demand 

709
00:40:48,990 --> 00:40:52,270
energy return and that that 
sounds pretty good to me let's 

710
00:40:52,270 --> 00:40:56,330
let's maximize it so. 
In terms of using it in everyday

711
00:40:56,330 --> 00:41:00,610
product, it's talking. 
We really focus on this term, 

712
00:41:00,610 --> 00:41:03,130
democratized innovation. 
If you're in our office for more

713
00:41:03,130 --> 00:41:05,610
than like a day, you're going to
hear that phrase. 

714
00:41:05,610 --> 00:41:08,170
We hammer it home because we 
don't want to. 

715
00:41:08,250 --> 00:41:11,610
We don't want to stray from it, 
honestly, and I'll go on a 

716
00:41:11,810 --> 00:41:16,460
slight tangent here, but like. 
We make a lot of comparisons and

717
00:41:16,460 --> 00:41:18,380
metaphors around the automotive 
industry. 

718
00:41:18,380 --> 00:41:21,740
I'm sure you guys have picked up
on this over the years of 

719
00:41:21,740 --> 00:41:26,780
talking to footwear people, but 
designers especially love a good

720
00:41:26,780 --> 00:41:30,860
car analogy. 
And maybe you've heard this one,

721
00:41:30,860 --> 00:41:34,620
but like everyone loves a race 
car, but we sell a lot more 

722
00:41:34,620 --> 00:41:38,380
sedans, and that sometimes that 
holds true for even the teams 

723
00:41:38,660 --> 00:41:41,140
working on the product. 
Like everybody, everybody 

724
00:41:41,140 --> 00:41:43,100
strives to work on the flashy 
new concept car. 

725
00:41:43,100 --> 00:41:46,520
But like. 
The the daily Trainer is the 

726
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,200
biggest deal. 
It's the pies, the resistance, 

727
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:50,400
right? 
Like that's your meat and 

728
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,840
potatoes. 
So again, why wouldn't we want 

729
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,600
to put these amazing foams into 
everyday products that you can 

730
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,680
benefit the most from them? 
I would, I would I guess maybe 

731
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,000
the biggest adversary to to to 
super shoes. 

732
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:08,680
Maybe it may. 
All right maybe it's the second 

733
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,720
biggest adversary to super shoes
is is the the folks feel that 

734
00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:16,290
they're unapproachable. 
Right, like that Somehow they're

735
00:42:16,290 --> 00:42:19,250
not for everyone. 
And perhaps maybe that was true 

736
00:42:19,250 --> 00:42:22,130
at first. 
There are a lot more options 

737
00:42:22,130 --> 00:42:22,690
now, right? 
Like. 

738
00:42:22,690 --> 00:42:25,890
Moreover, we have these 
lightweight, high responsive 

739
00:42:25,890 --> 00:42:30,170
protective foams in everyday 
styles that are more 

740
00:42:30,170 --> 00:42:33,370
accommodating with templates and
more reasonable costs. 

741
00:42:33,370 --> 00:42:38,850
So it's not just about running 
faster, it's about running more 

742
00:42:38,850 --> 00:42:41,810
comfortably and reaching longer 
distances and. 

743
00:42:42,340 --> 00:42:45,140
Hell extent if you're me 
extending your running career 

744
00:42:46,060 --> 00:42:48,220
and and having quicker and 
easier recoveries. 

745
00:42:48,220 --> 00:42:52,060
So that's that's really what 
democratized innovation is. 

746
00:42:52,900 --> 00:43:01,620
So whether it's HG or it's PB or
it's these these very boutique 

747
00:43:01,620 --> 00:43:04,780
Eva's if you call them, you know
this is probably the best place 

748
00:43:04,780 --> 00:43:08,540
to segue to product talk with 
Cory because we have all these 

749
00:43:08,540 --> 00:43:11,380
great phones. 
So how did we, how do we. 

750
00:43:12,110 --> 00:43:18,310
From scratch, design, engineer, 
test and validate like let's 

751
00:43:18,310 --> 00:43:22,750
call it a super shoe or super 
construction for that everyday 

752
00:43:22,750 --> 00:43:26,310
runner at everyday paces. 
And I think that's gonna answer 

753
00:43:26,310 --> 00:43:30,350
your question entirely, Nathan, 
except Matt has a question. 

754
00:43:31,550 --> 00:43:33,430
Totally. 
Matt, why don't you go and then 

755
00:43:33,430 --> 00:43:36,790
I'll yes. 
I I will actually. 

756
00:43:37,110 --> 00:43:38,830
Andrew, it's so interesting that
you said that because that is 

757
00:43:38,830 --> 00:43:40,270
exactly what is about to 
reference. 

758
00:43:40,270 --> 00:43:43,110
And like we talked about this 
when we went and visited all of 

759
00:43:43,110 --> 00:43:45,830
you going, yes, we know at that 
time, right. 

760
00:43:45,830 --> 00:43:48,550
We were concerned that, you 
know, maybe people shouldn't be 

761
00:43:48,870 --> 00:43:51,430
training in these all the time 
right there they're kind of 

762
00:43:51,430 --> 00:43:53,150
tools like to the race car 
analogy, right. 

763
00:43:53,350 --> 00:43:55,310
You know you you're going to 
want to take the race car to the

764
00:43:55,310 --> 00:43:56,710
racetrack. 
It might not be the most 

765
00:43:56,710 --> 00:43:58,750
appropriate thing to take to the
grocery store, right. 

766
00:43:58,750 --> 00:44:00,390
That's where the sedan, that 
kind of stuff. 

767
00:44:00,830 --> 00:44:03,550
I got a hand to Nathan though, 
who said said this much better 

768
00:44:03,550 --> 00:44:05,470
than I did and I think our 
concern then was. 

769
00:44:05,780 --> 00:44:07,340
We didn't know how people were 
going to spawn. 

770
00:44:07,340 --> 00:44:10,100
We didn't know if they were 
going to because it's such a 

771
00:44:10,100 --> 00:44:12,820
drastically different thing than
what was on the market then. 

772
00:44:13,260 --> 00:44:15,060
He's like that. 
That shift, I think, is what 

773
00:44:15,060 --> 00:44:17,140
we're concerned about. 
Because if you just went into 

774
00:44:17,140 --> 00:44:19,780
one of those shoes and that's 
what you trained in, yeah, if 

775
00:44:19,780 --> 00:44:21,300
you get used to it, you're going
to be fine. 

776
00:44:21,300 --> 00:44:23,740
It's the shifts back and forth 
where your body's really not 

777
00:44:24,020 --> 00:44:27,180
ready for that change that we 
start to see things that we're 

778
00:44:27,180 --> 00:44:29,540
concerned about. 
But now that the industry, all 

779
00:44:29,540 --> 00:44:32,460
that stuff has bled in, people 
are going to be more used to it.

780
00:44:32,460 --> 00:44:34,460
So I think there's less concern 
now because. 

781
00:44:34,850 --> 00:44:37,010
Like you said, we're seeing 
these boutique Evas that are 

782
00:44:37,010 --> 00:44:38,770
taking some of the same lessons 
learned. 

783
00:44:38,890 --> 00:44:41,690
We're seeing some of these foams
also in daily trainers. 

784
00:44:41,690 --> 00:44:44,210
So at this point, it's like I 
don't think there's as much 

785
00:44:44,290 --> 00:44:46,890
concern just because now it's 
everywhere. 

786
00:44:47,170 --> 00:44:50,450
Now that it's the norm, your 
bodies are going to be more used

787
00:44:50,450 --> 00:44:51,850
to it. 
Anybody coming in, that's going 

788
00:44:51,850 --> 00:44:54,530
to be their experience where as 
opposed to you're going from a 

789
00:44:54,770 --> 00:44:59,690
some of the older stiff Evas to 
a quote UN quote super foam. 

790
00:45:00,210 --> 00:45:02,690
Like that's a big shift and 
going back and forth and not 

791
00:45:02,690 --> 00:45:05,170
being ready for some of the 
things that might be required of

792
00:45:05,170 --> 00:45:07,650
you with that is going to be 
different now when they're 

793
00:45:07,650 --> 00:45:10,410
actually getting more similar 
and you're seeing this. 

794
00:45:10,410 --> 00:45:14,770
So it's okay to have a racy 
sedan now because that's what 

795
00:45:14,770 --> 00:45:17,050
we've got. 
And you're seeing that even in 

796
00:45:17,050 --> 00:45:20,210
the industry where cars are 
adapting, a lot of the race 

797
00:45:20,450 --> 00:45:23,490
things are lighter, things are 
way faster, things are more 

798
00:45:23,490 --> 00:45:25,010
streamlined and you're seeing 
that. 

799
00:45:25,410 --> 00:45:27,330
And I think footwear is not any 
different. 

800
00:45:27,770 --> 00:45:30,640
I think we could, I think. 
Go ahead Andrew. 

801
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,360
No, no, no. 
I was going to say that the, the

802
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,600
car to footwear analogies are 
deep. 

803
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,840
They run deep. 
But this is a perfect time to 

804
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,040
segue. 
We do want to also spend some 

805
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,880
time talking about the shoe 
that's coming, the Canvara Pro 

806
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,400
and curious to talk to you all 
about the development of the 

807
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:55,000
shoe, because for something 
called Canvara, it feels like it

808
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,520
couldn't be any different than 
the Canvara so. 

809
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,760
Can we first just start kind of 
with the story behind like where

810
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,520
this shoe came from and the idea
came from and why is it called 

811
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,680
Kinvara Pro? 
But why does it have Kinvara in 

812
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,880
it? 
Yeah, it it's a great question 

813
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,640
and I think a question that will
be asked a lot and hopefully I 

814
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:19,760
can point them to this episode 
in the future. 

815
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,120
So I hope I just if I say it 
once and it's really great, then

816
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,150
it'll be the last time. 
But I I think the the story 

817
00:46:27,190 --> 00:46:31,470
honestly starts back in, call it
2009, 2010. 

818
00:46:32,390 --> 00:46:36,950
It's when I started grad school.
So I just graduated from the 

819
00:46:36,950 --> 00:46:39,630
College of New Jersey and I was 
moving on to Penn State to study

820
00:46:39,630 --> 00:46:41,990
biomechanics. 
And it was a really exciting 

821
00:46:41,990 --> 00:46:46,430
time in to be in biomechanics 
research for a couple of 

822
00:46:46,430 --> 00:46:50,830
different reasons. 
And one was because of maybe two

823
00:46:50,950 --> 00:46:53,670
different publications that came
out right around the same time. 

824
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:59,760
One is Born to Run, and if any 
of the listeners haven't had a 

825
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,280
chance to read it, it's an 
interesting read, and also a 

826
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:07,440
publication in this little 
academic journal called Nature 

827
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:12,840
by Dan Lieberman. 
And Foot Strike Patterns and 

828
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,880
Collision Forces and habitually 
shot and barefoot runners. 

829
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,860
So between those two, it was. 
Maybe not the first time, but at

830
00:47:19,860 --> 00:47:22,740
least the first time in in my 
academic life that, you know, 

831
00:47:22,740 --> 00:47:27,260
biomechanics have become kind of
popular and people were it. 

832
00:47:27,260 --> 00:47:29,940
It, it had permeated through 
academia and into kind of 

833
00:47:30,060 --> 00:47:31,540
popular culture in a lot of 
ways. 

834
00:47:33,140 --> 00:47:37,620
And it it was interesting time 
for me because you know, that's 

835
00:47:37,620 --> 00:47:39,500
around the time where it really 
started to get into running. 

836
00:47:39,860 --> 00:47:43,340
And you know, it was pretty much
the reason that I'm here today 

837
00:47:43,340 --> 00:47:47,780
is because of the original 
Sakanikanvara and it was. 

838
00:47:48,570 --> 00:47:51,610
You know, a perfect example of 
what Andrea just mentioned, 

839
00:47:52,290 --> 00:47:56,690
democratized innovation. 
So it was right around this 

840
00:47:56,690 --> 00:47:59,050
time, you know, everyone's 
starting to think okay, we need 

841
00:47:59,050 --> 00:48:02,410
barefoot running and barefoot 
shoes, which is a paradox, 

842
00:48:02,410 --> 00:48:06,130
right? 
But this is when the Super 

843
00:48:06,130 --> 00:48:10,130
minimal, super lightweight, very
flexible shoes started coming 

844
00:48:10,130 --> 00:48:13,970
out, you know, zero heel toe 
offset, 0 millimeter heel toe 

845
00:48:13,970 --> 00:48:19,230
offset and. 
These were just everyone 

846
00:48:19,230 --> 00:48:22,790
everyone was scrambling to to 
make the best barefoot shoe you 

847
00:48:22,790 --> 00:48:27,590
know in quotes possible. 
And at the time Sakony thought 

848
00:48:27,590 --> 00:48:32,430
well and I'm saying Sakony in in
in a as a third party because I 

849
00:48:32,430 --> 00:48:38,310
wasn't in in the company at the 
time unfortunately but but so 

850
00:48:38,990 --> 00:48:43,270
the focus was well how do we 
take this very popular trend. 

851
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:48,000
And make it borrow aspects from 
this trend and from this 

852
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,480
research to make a shoe that's 
more accessible to everyone. 

853
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,640
So what you see in the Canvara, 
the original Canvara, it's a low

854
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,240
stack, but it's not almost 
nothing. 

855
00:48:58,240 --> 00:49:02,200
Stack, it's 4 millimeter heel to
toe. 

856
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:07,240
Offset, it's not 0 millimeter. 
It's lightweight, but it's not a

857
00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:09,440
coating of paint on your the 
bottom of your foot. 

858
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:16,240
And it basically took some bits 
and pieces of what designers 

859
00:49:16,240 --> 00:49:18,800
were starting to think about in 
the barefoot running trend, but 

860
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,400
made it more accessible so more 
people could it. 

861
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,760
It was, you know, the the 
gateway drug essentially into 

862
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,480
minimalism, for for lack of 
better term. 

863
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,800
So it, you know, in my mind, you
know, it always, it always 

864
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:32,880
became, you know, the the 
Kinvarra. 

865
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,240
The idea of the Kinvarra was 
always this kind of emphasis 

866
00:49:35,240 --> 00:49:38,200
toward making something that's 
taking a popular trend. 

867
00:49:38,660 --> 00:49:41,060
And democratizing it and making 
it more accessible for more 

868
00:49:41,060 --> 00:49:44,820
people. 
So hopefully you start to see 

869
00:49:44,940 --> 00:49:46,740
where the the path I'm 
traveling. 

870
00:49:46,740 --> 00:49:52,420
Down and enter in Canvar Pro. 
Right, so, so. 

871
00:49:52,500 --> 00:49:55,740
So tell us, I guess that yeah, 
in that in that vein. 

872
00:49:55,740 --> 00:49:57,620
So then what is this all 
stealing from? 

873
00:49:57,700 --> 00:49:59,980
I I could probably take stabs at
it, but I. 

874
00:50:00,340 --> 00:50:03,140
Of course, yeah. 
So Fast forward actually. 

875
00:50:03,180 --> 00:50:05,780
So Fast forward maybe 10 years 
or so. 

876
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,440
Minimalism is gone. 
Maybe not gone, but it's 

877
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:14,280
minimalism is a very minimal, 
you know, thought in a lot of 

878
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:18,200
people's minds. 
And you know the the original 4%

879
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:24,040
Vapor Fly comes out. 
Now this, you know, has exploded

880
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:28,080
and every, every footware 
manufacturer is making what you 

881
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:29,920
know, we're calling a quote UN 
quote super shoe, right? 

882
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:32,680
So a highly resilient, highly 
compliant. 

883
00:50:33,590 --> 00:50:39,430
Low density foam usually but not
exclusively with a plate, often 

884
00:50:39,430 --> 00:50:43,830
carbon fiber plate. 
And you know this has been a 

885
00:50:43,830 --> 00:50:48,510
really huge trend of of the you 
know the past four or five years

886
00:50:49,110 --> 00:50:53,230
and you might be thinking in 
your mind well wait a second 

887
00:50:53,230 --> 00:50:58,990
didn't soak any already try. 
Didn't we already try to make a 

888
00:50:59,230 --> 00:51:04,900
everyday you know or a. 
A more accessible carbon fiber 

889
00:51:04,900 --> 00:51:07,500
super shoe. 
The answer is yes, it was the 

890
00:51:07,500 --> 00:51:11,820
endorphin speed, right, which 
became one of the most popular 

891
00:51:11,820 --> 00:51:13,820
shoes. 
I don't know if I could say 

892
00:51:13,820 --> 00:51:18,580
ever, but it's it's it's an 
extremely popular shoe that that

893
00:51:18,780 --> 00:51:23,180
you know tested well, sold well,
and it worked well for a large 

894
00:51:23,180 --> 00:51:26,340
number of people and a large 
number of situations. 

895
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,360
Now I'm saying a large number 
because I know, Nate, you know, 

896
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:36,320
I believe you might have not 
loved the Speed 1/2 and I 

897
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,200
believe the answer was right 
related to stability. 

898
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:44,920
And I think that might have been
if if if there was a complaint 

899
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:49,240
which was very infrequent, 
probably it was related to 

900
00:51:49,240 --> 00:51:53,520
stability. 
So I think we've addressed a lot

901
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:58,490
of that in the speed 3, but. 
We we we tried to say which? 

902
00:51:58,490 --> 00:52:01,570
Is funny now. 
Now you make me happy that you 

903
00:52:01,570 --> 00:52:03,650
did. 
And then some people like, ah, I

904
00:52:03,810 --> 00:52:07,010
missed the one and the two it 
felt yeah, thank you. 

905
00:52:08,850 --> 00:52:12,810
But, but, but, but we, you know 
around maybe 2-3 years ago we 

906
00:52:12,810 --> 00:52:19,370
started to think, well if we 
started from scratch and said 

907
00:52:19,570 --> 00:52:25,810
how would we make a plated super
foam style super shoe. 

908
00:52:26,610 --> 00:52:31,450
For the everyday runner at 
everyday training paces, how 

909
00:52:31,450 --> 00:52:36,850
would we go about tackling that 
design challenge? 

910
00:52:38,050 --> 00:52:43,890
And that's kind of the impetus 
behind the name and the kind of 

911
00:52:43,970 --> 00:52:48,710
story around the Kinvar Pro. 
That makes a lot of sense from a

912
00:52:48,710 --> 00:52:51,830
linkage between the two names 
because like I said, you look at

913
00:52:51,830 --> 00:52:53,590
the shoes and they're so 
different. 

914
00:52:53,590 --> 00:52:57,110
You have huge stack, you have 
stiffness, you have a plate, you

915
00:52:57,110 --> 00:52:59,630
have like all the things, 
whereas the other one, like you 

916
00:52:59,630 --> 00:53:02,590
said it was so minimalist, but 
it was more of the origin story 

917
00:53:02,590 --> 00:53:05,670
of the shoe versus the actual 
structure. 

918
00:53:05,790 --> 00:53:07,750
I mean, the outsole is kind of 
similar, I would say. 

919
00:53:07,750 --> 00:53:10,230
Maybe that's you guys you'll 
kept that kind of. 

920
00:53:10,790 --> 00:53:12,910
You know, Ribbed Eva Exposed. 
That's. 

921
00:53:14,110 --> 00:53:23,310
Going to hate it. 
I have 50 miles on this shoe 

922
00:53:23,310 --> 00:53:25,830
right here. 
I have 50 miles. 

923
00:53:25,830 --> 00:53:27,750
I have created definitely my own
poster. 

924
00:53:27,750 --> 00:53:29,030
Loud heel bevel. 
No, it's doing. 

925
00:53:29,030 --> 00:53:30,990
Fun Yeah. 
So tell us a little bit about, 

926
00:53:31,030 --> 00:53:33,790
because this is one of those we 
actually talked about this topic

927
00:53:33,790 --> 00:53:36,270
last week too. 
So I guess it won't be last week

928
00:53:36,270 --> 00:53:39,710
at the whatever the buy sell 
episode that we that we released

929
00:53:39,710 --> 00:53:42,170
so. 
This is one of those that has a 

930
00:53:42,170 --> 00:53:45,410
really high stack height, 42 
millimeters in the heel and 34 

931
00:53:45,410 --> 00:53:49,010
in the four foot. 
So it's going above that 40 

932
00:53:49,010 --> 00:53:51,810
millimeter mark. 
You talked about you wanted to 

933
00:53:51,810 --> 00:53:54,330
start from scratch and develop a
shoe. 

934
00:53:54,770 --> 00:53:56,530
How? 
How did you actually go about 

935
00:53:56,530 --> 00:53:59,810
tackling that question and what 
sort of like testing did you go 

936
00:53:59,810 --> 00:54:01,930
through to create the shoe that 
you did and? 

937
00:54:02,790 --> 00:54:05,630
Maybe you can give me the 
evidence that I want to to buy 

938
00:54:05,630 --> 00:54:08,510
the idea of a more than 40 
millimeter. 

939
00:54:08,750 --> 00:54:11,390
Not that I'm a that, not that 
I'm super hard selling it, but 

940
00:54:11,390 --> 00:54:12,910
I'm just like, hey, show me it's
worth it. 

941
00:54:13,510 --> 00:54:16,950
So I'd love to hear about your 
development process for the 

942
00:54:16,950 --> 00:54:19,030
Kinbarr. 
Yeah, that's a that's about I 

943
00:54:19,030 --> 00:54:23,390
think 30 minutes worth of 
answering on that question. 

944
00:54:23,390 --> 00:54:27,270
But but I love it cuz I'm 
planning on talking about all of

945
00:54:27,270 --> 00:54:30,340
that anyway so. 
Just just stop me, right. 

946
00:54:30,340 --> 00:54:34,780
You've heard me speak enough and
and break it up, but so yeah, so

947
00:54:34,860 --> 00:54:36,780
So what are the design 
characteristics that we're 

948
00:54:36,780 --> 00:54:39,580
thinking about when starting 
from scratch? 

949
00:54:40,220 --> 00:54:45,940
You mentioned the stack heights 
and in particular the 8 

950
00:54:45,940 --> 00:54:50,260
millimeter offset given the fact
that it has, but I should have 

951
00:54:50,260 --> 00:54:53,740
mentioned, you know, power run 
PB directly under foot. 

952
00:54:54,360 --> 00:55:00,840
And it has a chassis or a 
carrier of power run underneath 

953
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:04,120
the plate or essentially along 
the bottom of the shoe. 

954
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:09,600
So those materials, in 
particular power on PB being so 

955
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:14,000
compliant, the 8 millimeter kind
of just static measurement of 

956
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:18,120
offset really ends up feeling a 
lot closer to a 4 millimeter 

957
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:21,360
offset just due to the fact that
it's such a highly compliant 

958
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,810
material. 
So, you know, I should be better

959
00:55:24,810 --> 00:55:27,290
about saying a static offset 
versus dynamic offset. 

960
00:55:28,090 --> 00:55:33,410
So you know, but yeah, so that's
one particular design feature. 

961
00:55:34,010 --> 00:55:36,770
One is a perfect example. 
I don't think Eva is gonna go 

962
00:55:36,770 --> 00:55:39,530
away anytime soon. 
And you see a similar idea on 

963
00:55:39,530 --> 00:55:41,970
The Tempest and that we can take
the differences in the 

964
00:55:41,970 --> 00:55:45,610
mechanical properties of these 
different foams and use them to 

965
00:55:45,610 --> 00:55:47,930
our advantage. 
So in particular with the 

966
00:55:47,930 --> 00:55:53,200
Guevara Pro. 
The the wide template, so 

967
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:57,000
essentially the the outline of 
the bottom of the shoe along 

968
00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:03,680
with the slightly less compliant
and a little bit heavier and 

969
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:07,600
higher density I should say 
power run on the bottom. 

970
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:12,120
Those two things kind of combine
to create kind of a more stable 

971
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:17,840
platform which for either a fast
runner running slow. 

972
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:21,800
Or for a slower runner just 
running at their typical pace, 

973
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:25,680
it's going to provide a a shoe 
that should be should have a 

974
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:29,880
very stable ride. 
And what I did mention between 

975
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:35,960
these two great Mitzels I or two
great foams is a carbon fiber 

976
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:40,760
plate and this is a three 
quarter length, essentially 3/4 

977
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,080
of the length of the shoe. 
Yep. 

978
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,040
So for those of you just 
listening, Nate's holding it up.

979
00:56:47,740 --> 00:56:50,260
And what what that essentially 
means is that there's no carbon 

980
00:56:50,260 --> 00:56:52,900
fiber plate directly under where
initial contact would occur, 

981
00:56:53,500 --> 00:56:55,580
meaning for most cases he'll 
strike. 

982
00:56:55,980 --> 00:56:58,860
So what that's ensuring is that 
it's going to be really, really 

983
00:56:58,860 --> 00:57:02,820
soft on initial contact, but you
still get essentially you know 

984
00:57:02,820 --> 00:57:06,380
mid foot through toe off all the
benefits that you would expect 

985
00:57:06,380 --> 00:57:09,100
and and the ride in sensation 
that you would get from a 

986
00:57:09,100 --> 00:57:12,870
typical plated shoe cool. 
And so you have the combination 

987
00:57:12,870 --> 00:57:15,430
of these two foams, a plate 
stack height. 

988
00:57:15,630 --> 00:57:18,670
What led you to making those 
decisions of how much to put in 

989
00:57:18,670 --> 00:57:22,690
of each and how you know? 
Did you you talk about different

990
00:57:22,690 --> 00:57:26,370
speeds of stuff like how did you
land on was I guess was your 

991
00:57:26,370 --> 00:57:29,410
decision for the amount of foams
dependent on what the testing 

992
00:57:29,410 --> 00:57:31,930
showed you with with the 
different speed testing or what 

993
00:57:31,930 --> 00:57:34,490
did that look like? 
Yeah, usually they're they're 

994
00:57:34,490 --> 00:57:38,610
running in in combination or in 
parallel where you'll be kind of

995
00:57:38,690 --> 00:57:41,170
testing as changes are made and 
then make changes and then go 

996
00:57:41,170 --> 00:57:44,010
back and test. 
So it's never just sit and wait 

997
00:57:44,450 --> 00:57:47,090
for results. 
Usually you're trying to get 

998
00:57:47,090 --> 00:57:51,050
information as early as possible
to to move along in parallel. 

999
00:57:52,850 --> 00:57:59,410
But usually the one of the 
bigger compromises is you pay a 

1000
00:57:59,410 --> 00:58:03,930
penalty in terms of weight, so 
you can make a more protective 

1001
00:58:03,930 --> 00:58:09,130
or a more supportive shoe, but 
you pay that penalty usually in 

1002
00:58:09,130 --> 00:58:14,250
terms of you know now you're 
carrying more stuff on your 

1003
00:58:14,250 --> 00:58:18,370
foot. 
And usually that just is a is a 

1004
00:58:18,370 --> 00:58:22,640
penalty in terms of weight. 
So that will have some 

1005
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:27,200
repercussions or not depending 
on the design of the shoe. 

1006
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:32,080
And we see that in kind of the 
testing that we did and the 

1007
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:34,840
products that we'll talk about 
very briefly. 

1008
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:38,280
Man, do you have any questions 
on that part so far? 

1009
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:43,160
Yeah, I don't. 
I have one bubbling in my mind, 

1010
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:46,440
but I'm not sure if it's totally
on topic. 

1011
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:48,520
Let it fly. 
It's a little it fly. 

1012
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:49,840
It's a little bit. 
Do you want to like? 

1013
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:51,280
Go for her. 
Come on. 

1014
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:53,280
Yeah. 
I guess my question is, so 

1015
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:56,000
what's because we're seeing a 
couple shoes like this is just 

1016
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:58,360
starting to come out with the 
the combination of two foams 

1017
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:01,480
where you've got usually more I 
guess not tradition, we got 

1018
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:04,680
these these now special Eva 
foams combined with some of 

1019
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:07,240
these what we would call super 
foams, right as mentioned. 

1020
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:13,000
Is there a term for how the 
foams interact with each other? 

1021
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,100
Does that make sense? 
Because it's got to be there's 

1022
00:59:17,100 --> 00:59:19,580
different properties. 
I'm assuming I might be totally 

1023
00:59:19,580 --> 00:59:24,420
off if you had a full slab of 
power on PV versus a full slab 

1024
00:59:24,860 --> 00:59:27,700
of power run, right. 
So but you've seen and then 

1025
00:59:27,700 --> 00:59:30,580
obviously I can understand, my 
assumption is you put, like Cory

1026
00:59:30,580 --> 00:59:32,500
mentioned this, you put the 
power on the bottom because it 

1027
00:59:32,500 --> 00:59:34,060
provides a more stable 
foundation, right. 

1028
00:59:34,060 --> 00:59:36,620
It's inherently like stiffer 
foam, right. 

1029
00:59:37,020 --> 00:59:40,020
But is there they're gonna, 
they're gonna react very 

1030
00:59:40,020 --> 00:59:43,460
differently to that amount of 
foam with those two versus one 

1031
00:59:43,460 --> 00:59:45,070
of? 
Just each correct. 

1032
00:59:45,070 --> 00:59:46,630
Is there a term for how they 
interact? 

1033
00:59:46,630 --> 00:59:49,790
Has anybody looked at that or is
it just kind of this is not 

1034
00:59:49,790 --> 00:59:51,910
important, does that? 
Make sense? 

1035
00:59:52,070 --> 00:59:55,630
I would definitely not say it's 
not important, but it's. 

1036
00:59:56,110 --> 00:59:58,750
I don't think anyone's coined a 
term for it yet. 

1037
00:59:58,870 --> 00:59:59,590
You should. 
Do that. 

1038
01:00:00,910 --> 01:00:03,550
We'll use it and make sure the 
footnote you. 

1039
01:00:05,150 --> 01:00:07,950
We can talk about it from like 
from the. 

1040
01:00:07,950 --> 01:00:10,370
Got it. 
The compliance and stiffness 

1041
01:00:10,450 --> 01:00:13,970
perspectives of each foam and 
and what we look at, but there's

1042
01:00:14,010 --> 01:00:17,210
I I don't think that there's a 
term for it to to answer that 

1043
01:00:17,210 --> 01:00:19,450
question. 
Feel like it'd be like shared 

1044
01:00:19,450 --> 01:00:24,210
compliance or like Co compliance
would be just the easier way to 

1045
01:00:24,210 --> 01:00:27,090
to do it because that's what I'm
seeing these shoes and going oh 

1046
01:00:27,090 --> 01:00:31,210
that's interesting these have a 
place but I don't know how to 

1047
01:00:31,210 --> 01:00:34,250
explain how they might be 
interacting and what what 

1048
01:00:34,250 --> 01:00:36,610
changed with it feels great or 
it's a very unique right. 

1049
01:00:36,610 --> 01:00:38,890
It's different than either one 
of the full ones. 

1050
01:00:39,260 --> 01:00:42,300
I just, you know, I'm just 
curious if anybody's coined that

1051
01:00:42,300 --> 01:00:44,420
and I'm sure that you're seeing 
that based on what I'm hearing. 

1052
01:00:45,220 --> 01:00:50,580
In terms of in terms of testing,
you know our impact tester 

1053
01:00:50,580 --> 01:00:52,140
doesn't really care what's 
underneath it. 

1054
01:00:53,220 --> 01:00:58,140
So we can quantify the the total
effect of everything that's 

1055
01:00:58,140 --> 01:01:02,620
underneath the the you know the 
endpoint as load and 

1056
01:01:02,620 --> 01:01:05,180
displacements are being measured
but. 

1057
01:01:06,260 --> 01:01:10,180
We'd have to think about how we 
actually stack up the individual

1058
01:01:10,180 --> 01:01:13,940
components contribution to that 
final force Displacement banana.

1059
01:01:17,540 --> 01:01:20,100
So are we agreeing that we're 
gonna call this Co compliance or

1060
01:01:20,100 --> 01:01:21,340
do you want the shared 
compliance? 

1061
01:01:21,340 --> 01:01:23,340
I feel like this needs to be a 
group decision, so we're talking

1062
01:01:23,340 --> 01:01:24,700
about this Co. 
Compliance works. 

1063
01:01:24,820 --> 01:01:26,860
I like it. 
You heard it here first, folks. 

1064
01:01:26,860 --> 01:01:31,860
Write that down. 
This was a joint. 

1065
01:01:32,350 --> 01:01:34,030
Joint decision. 
Entirely. 

1066
01:01:34,270 --> 01:01:38,910
I would say that Co compliance 
is most important under human to

1067
01:01:38,910 --> 01:01:42,430
Corey's point, looking at it 
mechanically you can get 

1068
01:01:42,430 --> 01:01:46,070
results, but it's it's not the 
full picture. 

1069
01:01:47,150 --> 01:01:49,430
Right. 
So I think maybe on on person, 

1070
01:01:49,430 --> 01:01:52,910
like on human testing kind of a 
question I have in relating to 

1071
01:01:52,910 --> 01:01:55,550
the design of the shoe and kind 
of some of the things you've 

1072
01:01:55,550 --> 01:01:58,390
referenced about like 
democratized innovation in the 

1073
01:01:58,390 --> 01:02:00,350
testing that you did to develop 
this shoe. 

1074
01:02:01,370 --> 01:02:04,530
Who did you find that it really 
benefits? 

1075
01:02:04,530 --> 01:02:07,730
Like when is it and what does 
benefit mean in the case of the 

1076
01:02:07,730 --> 01:02:09,450
Kinvarra Pro? 
I think those are my two 

1077
01:02:09,450 --> 01:02:11,050
questions. 
Who does it benefit and what 

1078
01:02:11,050 --> 01:02:14,050
does benefit mean based on the 
testing that you've done in your

1079
01:02:14,050 --> 01:02:16,890
lab on person? 
What a wonderful question. 

1080
01:02:16,930 --> 01:02:22,130
That's you. 
Didn't even feed me that one. 

1081
01:02:22,130 --> 01:02:23,130
You know, I. 
Came up with that. 

1082
01:02:23,130 --> 01:02:25,380
On my own. 
For teeing that. 

1083
01:02:26,100 --> 01:02:29,460
Up, I'll talk, I'll talk a 
little bit about the specific 

1084
01:02:29,460 --> 01:02:34,460
testing that we did and then 
I'll give you my conclusions 

1085
01:02:35,220 --> 01:02:38,860
that will answer the first part 
of that based on the data that 

1086
01:02:38,860 --> 01:02:44,580
we captured. 
So what we did is we quantified 

1087
01:02:44,580 --> 01:02:46,980
running economy. 
So just for a throwback to 

1088
01:02:46,980 --> 01:02:53,220
episode 96, we look at with a a 
measurement device called the 

1089
01:02:53,220 --> 01:02:57,080
metabolic cart. 
We quantify oxygen consumption 

1090
01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:00,200
and carbon dioxide production. 
The ratio of those is called the

1091
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:03,680
respiratory exchange ratio that 
feeds into a formula that can 

1092
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:09,640
predict the amount of energy 
expended by, in this case, the 

1093
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:12,840
runner, while they're engaged in
a particular activity. 

1094
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:17,960
So we quantified running the 
economy during two different 

1095
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:22,800
speeds in two different shoes 
for a cohort of different 

1096
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:25,330
athletes. 
And I say athletes, what I 

1097
01:03:25,330 --> 01:03:30,170
really mean is just individuals,
not necessarily our elite 

1098
01:03:30,250 --> 01:03:32,130
athletes or our professional 
athletes. 

1099
01:03:33,010 --> 01:03:37,410
So we had all of our testers 
come in for two different 

1100
01:03:37,410 --> 01:03:42,290
testing sessions on different 
days and we had them run in two 

1101
01:03:42,290 --> 01:03:45,770
different speeds, one of which 
I'll call comfortably hard. 

1102
01:03:46,370 --> 01:03:50,530
So it's not beyond your 
threshold pace, but just a 

1103
01:03:50,530 --> 01:03:56,800
little bit slower than that, so.
Not for that being a very 

1104
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:59,840
important threshold beyond which
it's it's difficult to quantify 

1105
01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:03,240
the amount of energy that a 
runner is consuming because it's

1106
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:06,840
steadily climbing because you're
kind of beyond your your 

1107
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:10,800
anaerobic threshold. 
And also we had those same 

1108
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:14,880
runners run in a speed, what I 
would like to call just your 

1109
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:19,680
cruising pace or you know, you 
might call it recovery pace for,

1110
01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:22,560
you know, someone you know post 
a workout the day after a 

1111
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:25,350
workout maybe. 
Or, you know, for a newer 

1112
01:04:25,350 --> 01:04:27,950
runner, it might just be their 
pace that they run in, that they

1113
01:04:27,950 --> 01:04:30,630
run at all the time. 
So it's kind of the comfortable 

1114
01:04:30,630 --> 01:04:34,870
cruising pace and then this 
pretty hard, but not beyond your

1115
01:04:34,950 --> 01:04:39,550
Uhoh pace. 
And we had all of our testers 

1116
01:04:39,550 --> 01:04:45,950
run in the Endorphin Pro 3 and 
in the Kinvarra Pro and they did

1117
01:04:45,950 --> 01:04:51,470
that and they counterbalanced or
you know, we alternated which 

1118
01:04:51,470 --> 01:04:53,070
shoe was first and which speed 
was first. 

1119
01:04:54,350 --> 01:05:00,230
Across the days and across all 
of our testers and just for 

1120
01:05:00,230 --> 01:05:03,950
A-frame of reference to put this
particular cohort, you know, 

1121
01:05:03,950 --> 01:05:08,190
just to put it in context, the 
average speed for our faster 

1122
01:05:08,190 --> 01:05:12,070
pace of the two was a little 
over 7 minutes per mile. 

1123
01:05:12,590 --> 01:05:18,270
And the average easier or kind 
of closer to recovery pace for 

1124
01:05:18,270 --> 01:05:21,910
this cohort was just a little 
bit faster than 9 minutes per 

1125
01:05:21,910 --> 01:05:24,910
mile. 
So enough to give 7:00 and 9:00?

1126
01:05:26,590 --> 01:05:28,510
Yeah, Yep. 
So they were either at that 

1127
01:05:28,550 --> 01:05:31,830
closer to 9 or closer to seven. 
And again every person was 

1128
01:05:31,830 --> 01:05:34,070
different. 
And I think that's a a unique 

1129
01:05:34,110 --> 01:05:39,390
characteristic of this 
particular experiment that you 

1130
01:05:39,430 --> 01:05:42,030
know is, is maybe more 
interesting to us as a footwear 

1131
01:05:42,030 --> 01:05:46,470
manufacturer than necessarily 
what a, a research institution 

1132
01:05:46,470 --> 01:05:50,030
you know in in academia might do
because what we're looking for 

1133
01:05:50,030 --> 01:05:52,590
is a pace that's unique to that 
individual. 

1134
01:05:54,500 --> 01:05:58,020
So rather than trying to find, 
you know, whatever your power 

1135
01:05:58,020 --> 01:06:01,740
analysis said, 18 testers that 
can all run faster than 6 

1136
01:06:01,740 --> 01:06:06,340
minutes per mile, and they can 
do it in three different shoes 

1137
01:06:06,340 --> 01:06:09,020
and two different days, and they
don't drop out of the study 

1138
01:06:09,020 --> 01:06:11,540
halfway through and they're not 
in a competitive racing season. 

1139
01:06:12,340 --> 01:06:14,060
Yeah, it becomes pretty 
difficult. 

1140
01:06:14,060 --> 01:06:17,540
I think I see Matt thinking 
about his experimental methods 

1141
01:06:17,540 --> 01:06:23,470
right now for his PhD. 
Power analysis is a yeah, Power 

1142
01:06:23,470 --> 01:06:26,750
analysis is a trigger phrase. 
I'm sorry now, just FYI. 

1143
01:06:28,750 --> 01:06:34,310
So, yeah, but so for that, we 
did that for a very particular 

1144
01:06:34,310 --> 01:06:37,910
reason. 
We wanted to make sure that it 

1145
01:06:37,910 --> 01:06:41,510
was applicable to a wide range 
of individuals. 

1146
01:06:42,050 --> 01:06:45,650
So what we wanted to do is not 
call easy pace a number, but we 

1147
01:06:45,650 --> 01:06:48,850
called easy pace a feeling. 
And that feeling is unique and 

1148
01:06:48,850 --> 01:06:51,410
specific to every single every 
single tester that came through.

1149
01:06:52,090 --> 01:06:55,440
Holla, that's great. 
Also, these people are me. 

1150
01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:57,920
You're just taught the people 
you brought in are me right now,

1151
01:06:57,920 --> 01:06:59,520
so this is great. 
Keep talking. 

1152
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:01,200
I want to hear. 
It wonderful. 

1153
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:01,440
Yeah. 
I. 

1154
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:03,360
Want to hear what? 
Happened another thing. 

1155
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:09,520
Some are, some are even slower. 
Self selected is so important. 

1156
01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:13,480
That's good to hear that from a 
consistency standpoint, not to 

1157
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:15,640
bring up my traumas in the pH. 
D, but that's one of the 

1158
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:18,170
challenges you run into. 
Is Okay. 

1159
01:07:18,330 --> 01:07:21,450
So this is individual. 
How do you standardize that? 

1160
01:07:21,450 --> 01:07:23,890
And the fact that we can 
actually standardize an effort 

1161
01:07:23,890 --> 01:07:27,210
level of our feeling is great 
cuz we finally have that answer 

1162
01:07:27,210 --> 01:07:30,210
cuz we know that that pace will 
vary incredibly. 

1163
01:07:30,210 --> 01:07:33,050
So the next fall up is Okay. 
How do we standardize this to 

1164
01:07:33,050 --> 01:07:36,410
make that more consistent, so we
know the data that we're getting

1165
01:07:36,810 --> 01:07:39,970
is actually reliable or valid. 
So that's it's great. 

1166
01:07:41,130 --> 01:07:44,290
And another thing that we didn't
specifically do. 

1167
01:07:44,600 --> 01:07:50,160
That a lot of researchers do in 
this kind of realm is we did not

1168
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:55,200
control for the weight of the 
shoe and we do that because, 

1169
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:59,360
well, the weight of the shoe is 
in and of itself a design 

1170
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:02,080
characteristic of the shoe that 
we are interested in testing. 

1171
01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:06,600
As I mentioned earlier, I think 
in specific response to one of 

1172
01:08:06,600 --> 01:08:11,680
these questions, we are adding 
more foam. 

1173
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:14,440
For a more supportive, more 
protective, more stable 

1174
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:17,080
environment. 
But we're paying that penalty in

1175
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:20,920
terms of added weight. 
And you know we've, you know you

1176
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:23,640
we can cite a couple of 
different papers over the years 

1177
01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:28,040
that have attempted to quantify 
the penalty that you pay in 

1178
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:31,720
terms of added energy 
expenditure per unit amount of 

1179
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:35,359
weight added to the shoe. 
And it's usually around 1% for 

1180
01:08:35,359 --> 01:08:40,479
every 100 grams of dead weight, 
I'll say because we know that 

1181
01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:45,790
not all weight is created equal.
But yeah, so we what we really 

1182
01:08:45,790 --> 01:08:49,950
wanted to do is quantify in part
how much penalty are we paying 

1183
01:08:49,950 --> 01:08:53,189
for, if at all are we paying for
this added weight and more 

1184
01:08:53,189 --> 01:08:56,870
supportive environment. 
Yeah, that that that word dead 

1185
01:08:56,870 --> 01:09:02,270
weight is is worth repeating 
because it's, you know, it's 

1186
01:09:02,390 --> 01:09:06,750
it's not part of the design if 
you're just adding it in in lead

1187
01:09:06,750 --> 01:09:09,790
pellets on the back of the shoe,
but it is built in. 

1188
01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:13,439
And for this scenario too you 
know the question that that 

1189
01:09:13,439 --> 01:09:16,640
someone like me if I was going 
to come buy a shoe I would want 

1190
01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:20,800
to know do I do better in that 
shoe as it is for like if I was 

1191
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:23,920
going to come and to a sockeny 
store let's just take keep all 

1192
01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:25,840
everyone else out of it. 
But if I was going to come to a 

1193
01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:28,720
Sockeny store I'd want to know 
which shoe is going to be the 

1194
01:09:28,720 --> 01:09:31,600
best for me not is this shoe 
better for me as long as the 

1195
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:34,520
weight is is equal. 
So I do like for the especially 

1196
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:37,279
for the development side on your
end like that's that's a big 

1197
01:09:37,279 --> 01:09:41,720
benefit of a of the way of. 
You know, developing a shoe, you

1198
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:44,359
can see what it is for, what it 
actually is, instead of, you 

1199
01:09:44,359 --> 01:09:47,399
know, equalizing some stuff. 
And those both have values in 

1200
01:09:47,399 --> 01:09:50,760
different ways, but that's 
actually super helpful to hear. 

1201
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:53,399
Cool. 
So what did you find? 

1202
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:59,960
Yeah, so drum roll. 
So what we found at the faster 

1203
01:09:59,960 --> 01:10:01,720
pace. 
So again, faster pace is 

1204
01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:04,800
specific to each individual. 
It averaged out to around 7 

1205
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:06,960
minutes per mile, but some 
people were faster, some people 

1206
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:08,720
were slower, but it was still 
fast for them. 

1207
01:10:09,470 --> 01:10:14,830
What we found was that the 
Endorphin Pro 3 was 2.4% more 

1208
01:10:15,270 --> 01:10:17,590
economical than the Convarra 
Pro. 

1209
01:10:19,270 --> 01:10:24,350
Which, whether or not that's 
surprising to you will kind of 

1210
01:10:24,350 --> 01:10:25,990
depend on your background and 
your experience. 

1211
01:10:25,990 --> 01:10:31,150
But it's a shoe that's designed 
to go fast, and it's your 

1212
01:10:31,150 --> 01:10:33,990
running economy is reduced or 
your running economy has 

1213
01:10:33,990 --> 01:10:38,190
improved when you're running in 
the Endorphin Pro 3 relative to 

1214
01:10:38,190 --> 01:10:41,870
the Convarra Pro. 
But what's interesting, but dare

1215
01:10:41,870 --> 01:10:46,150
I say fascinating about our 
experiment is at the easy pace. 

1216
01:10:47,110 --> 01:10:50,430
So the approaching 9 minutes per
mile on average for our cohort, 

1217
01:10:51,110 --> 01:10:54,550
There's no statistically 
significant difference in 

1218
01:10:54,590 --> 01:10:58,110
running economy between the 
Endorphin Pro 3 and the Cavarra 

1219
01:10:58,110 --> 01:11:02,830
Pro. 
The Cavarra Pro is a full 2 

1220
01:11:02,830 --> 01:11:05,990
ounces heavier than the 
Endorphin Pro 3. 

1221
01:11:08,550 --> 01:11:11,990
So we could talk about why that 
might be, but it's it. 

1222
01:11:12,070 --> 01:11:15,670
It's a pretty it's a very 
interesting finding in my 

1223
01:11:15,670 --> 01:11:17,910
opinion. 
Yeah. 

1224
01:11:17,910 --> 01:11:21,390
And I'm, I'm curious too before 
they even go into their thoughts

1225
01:11:21,390 --> 01:11:25,110
from it for you Matt, hearing 
that kind of just what's your 

1226
01:11:25,110 --> 01:11:27,910
reaction to that and your 
thoughts about what that, what 

1227
01:11:27,910 --> 01:11:30,430
that means and then we can they 
can tell us why we're wrong. 

1228
01:11:30,430 --> 01:11:36,910
I'm just kidding. 
No, no, I I. 

1229
01:11:36,910 --> 01:11:40,030
Think. 
It actually validates. 

1230
01:11:40,270 --> 01:11:44,390
It validates and opens it. 
It's how do I say this it, it 

1231
01:11:44,390 --> 01:11:47,870
validates something that I think
we were thinking about, but also

1232
01:11:48,030 --> 01:11:50,550
brings in a whole new piece. 
And I think the concept is 

1233
01:11:50,550 --> 01:11:54,710
understanding that shoes really 
are tuned to different pieces, 

1234
01:11:54,710 --> 01:11:55,950
right, in terms of how things 
are. 

1235
01:11:55,950 --> 01:11:58,070
It's kind of one of the things 
we've kind of cautioned people 

1236
01:11:58,070 --> 01:12:01,270
with, hey, should I be training 
in the Super racing shows? 

1237
01:12:01,270 --> 01:12:04,470
Like, yeah, I get this point. 
You could I don't think. 

1238
01:12:05,100 --> 01:12:07,860
It may not be the best option 
for you at easy training paces. 

1239
01:12:07,860 --> 01:12:10,940
It's it's designed and meant to 
go at a faster effort, right. 

1240
01:12:10,940 --> 01:12:13,900
It's like again, the same 
analogy with the, the race car, 

1241
01:12:13,900 --> 01:12:15,340
right? 
Could you take it to the grocery

1242
01:12:15,340 --> 01:12:16,140
store? 
Sure. 

1243
01:12:16,300 --> 01:12:19,780
Is that really the most, the, 
the most efficient thing? 

1244
01:12:20,460 --> 01:12:23,220
I don't know about that versus 
knowing, hey, the benefit that 

1245
01:12:23,220 --> 01:12:28,660
you're going to get from a 
racing shoe compared to this, 

1246
01:12:28,660 --> 01:12:31,300
what do you want to call this? 
Not a hybrid, right? 

1247
01:12:31,300 --> 01:12:33,780
What would you, how we define 
this? 

1248
01:12:34,250 --> 01:12:36,850
Every everyday plated. 
Yeah, sure. 

1249
01:12:36,850 --> 01:12:39,810
Everyday plated this, this 
combination, right? 

1250
01:12:39,810 --> 01:12:43,090
To know that they actually 
aren't different at easy paces 

1251
01:12:43,090 --> 01:12:46,090
might make you go, well, what 
might be the better option, 

1252
01:12:46,170 --> 01:12:48,010
right, in terms of this one's 
going to be a little bit more 

1253
01:12:48,010 --> 01:12:50,330
stable. 
It's actually designed for 

1254
01:12:50,330 --> 01:12:53,010
training, but still has those 
characteristics that make it a 

1255
01:12:53,010 --> 01:12:54,690
great shoe. 
That's really, I've got 50 miles

1256
01:12:54,690 --> 01:12:56,730
in my pair. 
It's comfortable, it works well.

1257
01:12:56,730 --> 01:13:00,090
I've used it for easy runs, done
some workouts in it, but long 

1258
01:13:00,090 --> 01:13:01,720
runs. 
It's a great shoe. 

1259
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:05,240
It for me personally wouldn't be
the thing I would choose for 

1260
01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:10,000
race day, I would choose the Pro
3, but for training it's really 

1261
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:12,600
comfortable and it responds 
really well. 

1262
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:15,560
So it makes sense to me because 
I think we've seen that in the 

1263
01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:18,780
evidence. 
In terms of some smaller studies

1264
01:13:18,780 --> 01:13:21,500
at the moment where we've gone, 
hey, the benefit for some of the

1265
01:13:21,500 --> 01:13:25,260
Super shoes decreases as you 
start going at slower speeds, 

1266
01:13:25,260 --> 01:13:27,340
right? 
And we quantified that first for

1267
01:13:27,340 --> 01:13:31,100
some of the studies as slower 
runners, right, or or runners 

1268
01:13:31,100 --> 01:13:33,780
that run it maybe potentially 
8910, whatever. 

1269
01:13:34,140 --> 01:13:37,140
But to know that, hey, we can 
actually design shoes that still

1270
01:13:37,140 --> 01:13:40,780
give you some benefit over a 
traditional shoe, but maybe are 

1271
01:13:40,780 --> 01:13:42,460
tuned a little bit better for 
you. 

1272
01:13:43,310 --> 01:13:45,470
Makes makes sense and I think 
that I hadn't. 

1273
01:13:45,790 --> 01:13:48,470
I thought about it more as the 
runners speed, not how is the 

1274
01:13:48,470 --> 01:13:52,510
shoe responding to them, which I
think is the more important 

1275
01:13:52,630 --> 01:13:56,310
question and probably, I guess, 
I don't know, vice versa. 

1276
01:13:56,350 --> 01:13:57,110
Yeah, did that make? 
Sense. 

1277
01:13:58,150 --> 01:14:00,590
Yeah. 
I think one of the quick 

1278
01:14:00,590 --> 01:14:03,270
reactions I have and then I want
to hear y'all's y'all have 

1279
01:14:03,270 --> 01:14:05,590
thought about you. 
You've you've had this data for 

1280
01:14:05,590 --> 01:14:07,510
a long time, so you've sat and 
you've thought about it and 

1281
01:14:07,590 --> 01:14:10,720
you've ruminated over it. 
I think one of the things for me

1282
01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:14,840
is, is even a conversation that 
we had with Jeff about like why 

1283
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:16,560
not training these things all 
the time. 

1284
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:22,040
And I think that does also in 
these things referencing a super

1285
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:27,120
shoe that has all only Peeba 
based foam because it's the most

1286
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:30,200
you know energy returning type 
material. 

1287
01:14:30,480 --> 01:14:33,960
And so if you take a shoe that 
isn't necessarily that. 

1288
01:14:34,270 --> 01:14:36,910
And you have a similar running 
economy at a slower pace. 

1289
01:14:36,910 --> 01:14:40,390
That kind of brings that whole 
conversation back into the fold.

1290
01:14:40,630 --> 01:14:43,470
And thinking about like, yeah, 
you don't necessarily need to be

1291
01:14:43,510 --> 01:14:48,550
training that to get as much 
running economy benefit in, you 

1292
01:14:48,550 --> 01:14:50,670
know, in a shoe like that 
compared to something else. 

1293
01:14:50,670 --> 01:14:52,630
But what? 
Yeah, tell tell us what what 

1294
01:14:52,630 --> 01:14:55,090
y'all have thought about. 
Curious, I also think about race

1295
01:14:55,090 --> 01:14:57,410
day for a lot of people too, but
that's a whole other part. 

1296
01:14:58,210 --> 01:15:01,890
Well, I mean you you, you both 
have made a lot of comments that

1297
01:15:01,890 --> 01:15:03,690
I think are pretty consistent 
with how we think about it, 

1298
01:15:03,690 --> 01:15:08,290
including some verbiage that's 
almost verbatim taken from write

1299
01:15:08,290 --> 01:15:10,490
ups from the past couple of 
months. 

1300
01:15:11,410 --> 01:15:15,850
But yeah, I think I think maybe 
I would I would follow up those 

1301
01:15:15,850 --> 01:15:19,730
comments with addressing 
literally the first question you

1302
01:15:19,730 --> 01:15:21,570
asked me about the Kabara Pro 
which is. 

1303
01:15:22,410 --> 01:15:24,890
I believe it was the first time.
I'm trying to remember now, but 

1304
01:15:25,410 --> 01:15:28,850
who is it good for, right? 
Yep. 

1305
01:15:28,930 --> 01:15:32,010
And I think based on the 
evidence that we have now, 

1306
01:15:32,010 --> 01:15:35,250
granted, running economy is not 
the only thing that matters. 

1307
01:15:35,250 --> 01:15:38,010
There are a lot of other 
characteristics that may dictate

1308
01:15:38,090 --> 01:15:42,250
when when a shoe should or 
should not be, you know, best 

1309
01:15:42,250 --> 01:15:47,370
suited for a particular context.
But in my mind what the data 

1310
01:15:47,370 --> 01:15:50,930
here are saying. 
Is that the Kimvar Pro is kind 

1311
01:15:50,930 --> 01:15:55,130
of tuned especially for this 
easy slash recovery pace. 

1312
01:15:55,770 --> 01:15:59,850
So what does that make it for? 
Well, in my mind it makes it for

1313
01:16:00,130 --> 01:16:04,090
any context in which slower 
running may be preferred. 

1314
01:16:05,250 --> 01:16:08,530
So that could be for those new 
to running that are trying to 

1315
01:16:08,530 --> 01:16:10,650
avoid an overuse injury but not 
overdoing it. 

1316
01:16:11,250 --> 01:16:13,890
It could be higher volume 
runners who just need an option 

1317
01:16:13,890 --> 01:16:16,170
for their easy days. 
It could be first time 

1318
01:16:16,170 --> 01:16:18,050
marathoners or for anyone for 
whom. 

1319
01:16:19,710 --> 01:16:23,310
There's no difference between 
your race pace and the kind of 

1320
01:16:23,510 --> 01:16:26,350
your everyday pace, or the pace 
that which you run at almost all

1321
01:16:26,350 --> 01:16:32,150
the time. 
Or for anyone that's looking for

1322
01:16:32,230 --> 01:16:35,430
just a product that they're 
willing to sacrifice a little 

1323
01:16:35,430 --> 01:16:40,270
bit on speed for just a more 
supportive protective 

1324
01:16:40,590 --> 01:16:42,950
environment. 
Or for, you know, dare I say, a 

1325
01:16:42,950 --> 01:16:48,040
more stable ride. 
So really, it's not for slow 

1326
01:16:48,040 --> 01:16:50,680
runners, it's not for fast 
runners, it's not for elite 

1327
01:16:50,680 --> 01:16:53,680
runners. 
It's especially it's for 

1328
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:56,400
potentially everyone depending 
on the right context, right. 

1329
01:16:56,400 --> 01:16:58,680
So as Matt says, it's a tool. 
It's the right tool for the 

1330
01:16:58,680 --> 01:17:02,440
right context. 
In thinking about what you said 

1331
01:17:02,440 --> 01:17:05,080
in terms of your testing 
protocol, you didn't test based 

1332
01:17:05,080 --> 01:17:07,080
on speed, you tested based on 
effort. 

1333
01:17:07,490 --> 01:17:10,370
And I think that was where my 
conclusions for myself would 

1334
01:17:10,370 --> 01:17:12,010
come in. 
Like when would I, you know, 

1335
01:17:12,010 --> 01:17:14,770
based on that, if I were one of 
the subjects in your study that 

1336
01:17:14,770 --> 01:17:18,530
showed that ratio of benefit, 
then I would be using this again

1337
01:17:18,530 --> 01:17:21,770
for maybe my long runs that I'm 
just out there just to get 

1338
01:17:21,770 --> 01:17:25,810
mileage in and that easy pace, 
easy pace runs and then even, 

1339
01:17:25,850 --> 01:17:27,810
you know, one of the things I 
want to do this year is I don't 

1340
01:17:27,810 --> 01:17:31,130
want to race a marathon anytime 
soon to be honest because that's

1341
01:17:31,130 --> 01:17:33,170
just a lot of work. 
But I do want to run. 

1342
01:17:33,170 --> 01:17:36,650
We have a, we have a 24 mile 
trail around Stevens Point and I

1343
01:17:36,650 --> 01:17:39,020
want to. 
Pretty maybe this fall, maybe 

1344
01:17:39,020 --> 01:17:42,180
next spring, depending on how 
I'm doing, but I want to just 

1345
01:17:42,180 --> 01:17:45,660
run the whole thing with no, no 
regard to to running fast. 

1346
01:17:45,660 --> 01:17:48,300
And like this makes me think 
maybe that would be the shoe I'd

1347
01:17:48,300 --> 01:17:52,540
pull out to, to do that in just 
because that would be what you 

1348
01:17:52,540 --> 01:17:54,700
were talking about, where it's 
not a hard effort, but it is a 

1349
01:17:54,700 --> 01:17:58,860
long distance and it's just 
wanting to remain as economical 

1350
01:17:58,860 --> 01:18:01,820
as possible at that easier pace,
so. 

1351
01:18:03,380 --> 01:18:05,620
Yeah, and I was thinking about 
too, about the people who wanna 

1352
01:18:05,620 --> 01:18:08,740
just go run a marathon and not 
necessarily race a marathon. 

1353
01:18:08,740 --> 01:18:11,020
That's that's where it was 
sitting for me too. 

1354
01:18:11,220 --> 01:18:13,460
So any other thoughts, Matt, 
from you? 

1355
01:18:15,380 --> 01:18:20,260
Yeah, that that answered. 
It and it's $180. 180 dollars? 

1356
01:18:20,260 --> 01:18:21,660
Yeah, we didn't even talk about 
price. 

1357
01:18:21,700 --> 01:18:23,260
No, why would we? 
We don't care about it. 

1358
01:18:23,980 --> 01:18:27,140
We we designed product not the 
price point, but it does yeah 

1359
01:18:27,180 --> 01:18:30,700
fall into the conversations we 
had prior about. 

1360
01:18:32,290 --> 01:18:34,930
Well, you had prior, we weren't 
involved, but I mean though it 

1361
01:18:34,930 --> 01:18:39,250
feels like we were, there you 
go. 

1362
01:18:39,930 --> 01:18:41,370
You're involved in spirit. 
We always have. 

1363
01:18:41,370 --> 01:18:45,810
You on SO the commentary around 
who are these shoes for? 

1364
01:18:45,810 --> 01:18:51,770
Well, not everyone wants or 
needs a shoe north of $200.00. 

1365
01:18:51,770 --> 01:18:55,490
That's a lot of money. 
So that goes into accessibility,

1366
01:18:55,490 --> 01:18:57,490
right? 
So you hear of terms like. 

1367
01:18:57,960 --> 01:19:01,040
Sustainability, speed, 
performance, all this stuff. 

1368
01:19:01,040 --> 01:19:03,160
But accessibility is also 
something really, really 

1369
01:19:03,160 --> 01:19:04,680
important, especially in today's
market. 

1370
01:19:04,680 --> 01:19:06,560
So that makes sense, right? 
Why? 

1371
01:19:06,640 --> 01:19:10,600
If you can, get something that's
really tuned to where you are as

1372
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:15,800
a runner or what your need is. 
Again, using the car analogy, do

1373
01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:19,080
you really need to go? 
Like, again, if you're racing, 

1374
01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:21,120
great, awesome that the race car
makes sense, right? 

1375
01:19:21,120 --> 01:19:23,000
But you're probably still not 
going to take the race car to 

1376
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:25,460
the grocery store. 
If you're the person that your 

1377
01:19:25,460 --> 01:19:28,580
daily run is at, the grocery 
store analogy, right, Which is 

1378
01:19:28,660 --> 01:19:30,660
incredibly important, right? 
We need food, right? 

1379
01:19:30,660 --> 01:19:32,580
We need those base miles. 
We need that stuff. 

1380
01:19:33,020 --> 01:19:37,460
You can find something that fits
that really well at a different 

1381
01:19:37,460 --> 01:19:40,660
price point and it's actually 
tuned specifically for that 

1382
01:19:40,660 --> 01:19:42,580
activity. 
That's something. 

1383
01:19:42,580 --> 01:19:42,980
Why? 
What? 

1384
01:19:42,980 --> 01:19:44,940
You know why? 
Why would you not choose that 

1385
01:19:44,940 --> 01:19:47,340
right chooser tools. 
It makes sense. 

1386
01:19:48,020 --> 01:19:51,100
Unless, you know, you could 
still run Easy and the Pro 3, 

1387
01:19:51,100 --> 01:19:53,260
but there's gonna be a tool 
that's going, hey, we designed 

1388
01:19:53,260 --> 01:19:55,380
it specifically for this. 
So. 

1389
01:19:55,380 --> 01:19:58,100
And it's accessible. 
This might be our last question 

1390
01:19:58,100 --> 01:20:00,620
on this shoe. 
Thank you for sharing all of the

1391
01:20:01,100 --> 01:20:02,860
it's fun to get a behind the 
scenes look. 

1392
01:20:02,940 --> 01:20:05,700
I think for us and for the 
people who listen to this just 

1393
01:20:05,700 --> 01:20:08,180
to hear how did a shoe get 
developed, I think that 

1394
01:20:08,180 --> 01:20:10,670
sometimes we try to. 
I know us too. 

1395
01:20:10,670 --> 01:20:12,830
We try to make guesses as to 
what were they trying to do 

1396
01:20:12,830 --> 01:20:14,950
here. 
Even with the relationships we 

1397
01:20:14,950 --> 01:20:18,350
have with y'all and and the 
other companies, we don't always

1398
01:20:18,350 --> 01:20:21,870
know the story. 
And the from from y'all this the

1399
01:20:21,870 --> 01:20:24,310
science side of the story, you 
know, how are you looking at 

1400
01:20:24,310 --> 01:20:28,110
people's perceptions of a shoe 
and how are you looking at the 

1401
01:20:28,110 --> 01:20:29,590
science and the running economy 
all that. 

1402
01:20:29,590 --> 01:20:33,990
So it's it's fun to hear that. 
That's another buy or sell thing

1403
01:20:33,990 --> 01:20:36,310
we talked about last week was 
training in plated shoes. 

1404
01:20:36,610 --> 01:20:40,290
Here we have a kind of a shoe 
designed for daily training. 

1405
01:20:40,810 --> 01:20:44,490
What are y'all's perspective on 
always training in a plated 

1406
01:20:44,490 --> 01:20:48,130
shoe? 
And both maybe speaking from a 

1407
01:20:48,130 --> 01:20:52,770
sockety philosophy, but also 
y'all like where are you at in 

1408
01:20:52,770 --> 01:20:55,500
that conversation? 
And then we're already. 20 

1409
01:20:55,500 --> 01:20:58,460
minutes over what we try to do 
so we can wrap it up after that,

1410
01:20:58,460 --> 01:21:00,740
but. 
It was totally worth it me, but.

1411
01:21:01,140 --> 01:21:03,660
It is for me too. 
I am learning so much which is 

1412
01:21:03,820 --> 01:21:06,460
always awesome that which is 
normal to head when Andrea, Cory

1413
01:21:06,460 --> 01:21:09,620
are on but. 
So yeah, what's your perspective

1414
01:21:09,620 --> 01:21:13,460
there? 
Yeah, I'll I'll answer for for 

1415
01:21:13,460 --> 01:21:15,900
the both of us. 
I believe pretty, I can say that

1416
01:21:15,900 --> 01:21:19,500
pretty confidently. 
Yeah, I think we almost 

1417
01:21:19,500 --> 01:21:22,060
intentionally didn't answer it. 
We we don't prescribe. 

1418
01:21:23,260 --> 01:21:30,100
What we tried to do is to design
and test and understand these 

1419
01:21:30,860 --> 01:21:32,980
mechanical tools that we're 
producing. 

1420
01:21:33,860 --> 01:21:39,220
But we leave it to people like 
you, to everyone, to the 

1421
01:21:39,220 --> 01:21:43,660
coaches, to the athletes, to the
clinicians to make that decision

1422
01:21:43,660 --> 01:21:46,780
for themselves if you choose to 
do so. 

1423
01:21:46,780 --> 01:21:49,260
We believe we've created a great
solution for that. 

1424
01:21:49,870 --> 01:21:52,790
But we don't make specific 
prescriptions. 

1425
01:21:54,830 --> 01:21:58,030
I think that's that's a 
diplomatic way of putting it. 

1426
01:21:59,590 --> 01:22:00,750
Anything you'd want to add, 
Andrew? 

1427
01:22:03,590 --> 01:22:07,070
No, that was the perfect 
diplomatic answer. 

1428
01:22:08,590 --> 01:22:13,590
It well, true, entirely true. 
I do think that we we have this 

1429
01:22:13,590 --> 01:22:17,630
question and this commentary in 
the office all the time. 

1430
01:22:18,770 --> 01:22:22,810
You know people ask us all the 
time and nobody is really happy 

1431
01:22:22,810 --> 01:22:24,730
with that answer. 
Yeah, unfortunately. 

1432
01:22:25,170 --> 01:22:30,130
But at the same time we we are, 
we are very much like you all. 

1433
01:22:30,130 --> 01:22:34,730
We want to wait and and see and 
have better answers in pocket 

1434
01:22:35,410 --> 01:22:37,010
and have better research in 
pocket. 

1435
01:22:38,610 --> 01:22:42,810
I will say at first I I I'll be 
really honest with with you and 

1436
01:22:42,810 --> 01:22:45,010
the listeners. 
I wasn't a big fan of it. 

1437
01:22:45,050 --> 01:22:50,090
I think you should. 
Be cautiously optimistic and 

1438
01:22:50,090 --> 01:22:52,810
figure out what's going on 
before you just dive into all 

1439
01:22:52,810 --> 01:22:54,690
your miles with a with a plated 
shoe. 

1440
01:22:55,610 --> 01:23:00,530
And I've been coming around more
to the idea of it, just purely 

1441
01:23:00,530 --> 01:23:03,450
anecdotally. 
But yeah, going back to the 

1442
01:23:03,450 --> 01:23:06,970
diplomatic answer, we don't, we 
don't have a perspective on it. 

1443
01:23:07,790 --> 01:23:11,150
Do you do you think from a 
practical side of Saucony future

1444
01:23:11,150 --> 01:23:15,750
development will all of your 
will like the Ride, The Triumph?

1445
01:23:15,830 --> 01:23:17,670
Are those all gonna become 
plated shoes? 

1446
01:23:17,670 --> 01:23:20,230
Is that like the philosophy or 
is they're gonna you're always 

1447
01:23:20,230 --> 01:23:22,550
gonna have non plated options 
with Socony. 

1448
01:23:22,630 --> 01:23:24,430
No, I always and never are hard 
words. 

1449
01:23:24,430 --> 01:23:25,790
I get that. 
But yeah, we never speak in 

1450
01:23:25,790 --> 01:23:32,030
absolutes, yeah. 
But if I would very much bet the

1451
01:23:32,030 --> 01:23:35,670
harm on, the answer would be no.
There we. 

1452
01:23:36,470 --> 01:23:39,750
We make different rides, and 
plates are a big part of rides, 

1453
01:23:41,150 --> 01:23:46,230
Not the shoe ride, obviously. 
And just much like the Eva 

1454
01:23:46,230 --> 01:23:51,750
question, you need to have 
different flavors for different 

1455
01:23:51,750 --> 01:23:54,670
folks. 
I think that's that's the best 

1456
01:23:54,670 --> 01:23:57,270
way of putting that cuz I 
totally with you and we actually

1457
01:23:57,270 --> 01:23:58,710
had this conversation where we 
were like. 

1458
01:23:59,140 --> 01:24:01,780
I don't know if people should be
training and now we have tons of

1459
01:24:01,980 --> 01:24:05,060
great training shoes and shoes 
that people train in all the 

1460
01:24:05,060 --> 01:24:08,460
time like the speed three. 
It has a nylon plate but people 

1461
01:24:08,460 --> 01:24:11,460
still love training in that 
shoe, right We're But at the 

1462
01:24:11,460 --> 01:24:16,500
same time I think people need to
understand what the purpose of a

1463
01:24:16,500 --> 01:24:20,020
plate is and that is to add 
longitudinal bending stiffness 

1464
01:24:20,020 --> 01:24:24,220
to make modifications to the 
right of the shoe and I think. 

1465
01:24:25,360 --> 01:24:28,960
There are some people that just 
need an inherently more stiff be

1466
01:24:28,960 --> 01:24:31,880
it stiff, compliant, stiff 
longitudinal, bending, stiffness

1467
01:24:31,880 --> 01:24:33,920
wise. 
That's not any different from 

1468
01:24:34,080 --> 01:24:37,000
adding an orthotic into a shoe 
or adding a poster. 

1469
01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:40,360
Adding it's just another way of 
of doing that. 

1470
01:24:40,360 --> 01:24:43,720
So I think some people are going
to need it, some people are not.

1471
01:24:43,800 --> 01:24:45,680
And it goes back to what our 
students hate. 

1472
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:47,240
And I was laughing earlier when 
you said this is. 

1473
01:24:47,690 --> 01:24:50,410
It depends on the person, right?
There's no straight answer. 

1474
01:24:50,410 --> 01:24:52,850
There are going to be people 
who, you know, actually they 

1475
01:24:52,850 --> 01:24:55,490
probably need a plated shoe for 
their daily miles. 

1476
01:24:55,490 --> 01:24:57,170
It just works for the and 
there's going to be other people

1477
01:24:57,170 --> 01:24:59,970
that go, you shouldn't run in a 
plated shoe because it doesn't 

1478
01:24:59,970 --> 01:25:03,690
work for you. 
But we can't make absolutes 

1479
01:25:03,730 --> 01:25:06,850
because that takes away how 
individual people are. 

1480
01:25:06,850 --> 01:25:09,090
So yeah, that makes sense. 
It's not about we're going to 

1481
01:25:09,090 --> 01:25:10,650
put plated in every shoe or take
it out. 

1482
01:25:10,650 --> 01:25:14,610
It's how do we make tools or how
like as you mentioned earlier, 

1483
01:25:14,730 --> 01:25:17,130
how do we create solutions for 
problems. 

1484
01:25:17,750 --> 01:25:20,390
And that doesn't mean that you 
apply the solution to all the 

1485
01:25:20,390 --> 01:25:23,910
problems, It just means that 
that solution works for one, 

1486
01:25:23,910 --> 01:25:27,830
maybe 2 problems. 
I think is the kind of at what 

1487
01:25:27,830 --> 01:25:29,750
what I would add, but basically 
just. 

1488
01:25:29,750 --> 01:25:32,430
And that's great because I asked
that question because people 

1489
01:25:32,990 --> 01:25:36,230
including myself like see a 
design choice within a company 

1490
01:25:36,230 --> 01:25:38,070
or like is this the direction 
they're going? 

1491
01:25:38,350 --> 01:25:40,910
And so I like I wanted to give 
you the space to kind of. 

1492
01:25:41,340 --> 01:25:43,580
I didn't know exactly what your 
answer would be, I figured I 

1493
01:25:43,580 --> 01:25:47,100
knew what it would be, but just 
being able to say no, this is 1 

1494
01:25:47,100 --> 01:25:49,900
solution to one potential 
problem as Matt was just saying 

1495
01:25:50,380 --> 01:25:51,820
I think the other. 
Interesting thing was well 

1496
01:25:51,820 --> 01:25:57,460
enough by now that it's true. 
I'd be shocked if you thought 

1497
01:25:57,460 --> 01:25:59,580
that my answer would be yes, 
we're putting plates in 

1498
01:25:59,620 --> 01:26:04,660
anything. 
I think I think two other quick 

1499
01:26:04,660 --> 01:26:06,180
things. 
Our full review is going to come

1500
01:26:06,180 --> 01:26:08,420
out on this shoe at some point 
where people get all of our 

1501
01:26:08,460 --> 01:26:09,780
thoughts from our actual 
testing. 

1502
01:26:09,780 --> 01:26:12,900
So I don't want to go into that 
now, but I I do think it's, it's

1503
01:26:12,900 --> 01:26:15,060
worth saying kind of a couple 
things. 

1504
01:26:15,060 --> 01:26:16,700
One, this is the shoe with the 
plate. 

1505
01:26:16,820 --> 01:26:20,180
It's not your, it doesn't mean 
that it's faster because it has 

1506
01:26:20,180 --> 01:26:22,460
a plate in it. 
Plates aren't again as Matt just

1507
01:26:22,460 --> 01:26:26,340
said, that's not what plates do 
only that's like maybe a small 

1508
01:26:26,340 --> 01:26:29,700
fraction of what they contribute
to but it's all within a big. 

1509
01:26:30,830 --> 01:26:32,750
Soup. 
The second thing is that just 

1510
01:26:32,750 --> 01:26:36,590
because this shoe isn't as 
economically friendly at faster 

1511
01:26:36,590 --> 01:26:40,070
paces as the endorphin Pro 3 
doesn't mean you can't run a 

1512
01:26:40,070 --> 01:26:41,790
little bit faster. 
And I've done workouts in this 

1513
01:26:41,790 --> 01:26:45,430
shoe and I have liked it because
that my warm up is really nice 

1514
01:26:45,430 --> 01:26:48,350
and easy and it feels good and 
then it does pick up just fine 

1515
01:26:48,350 --> 01:26:50,310
for those faster things. 
But just because it doesn't have

1516
01:26:50,310 --> 01:26:52,710
the same running economy benefit
as a super Shoe doesn't mean you

1517
01:26:52,710 --> 01:26:55,950
can't do workouts in it, but 
that'll that'll come out in our 

1518
01:26:56,070 --> 01:26:58,670
in our review as as well over 
time. 

1519
01:26:58,670 --> 01:27:00,580
But. 
Figured it might be worth 

1520
01:27:00,900 --> 01:27:02,820
throwing that out there. 
No, I appreciated that. 

1521
01:27:02,820 --> 01:27:05,020
I think that goes back to what I
was trying to say before about 

1522
01:27:05,020 --> 01:27:06,620
super shoes not being 
approachable. 

1523
01:27:07,740 --> 01:27:09,460
That's I think that's a 
misconception. 

1524
01:27:10,220 --> 01:27:15,420
I think that there we need to 
add more words in there much 

1525
01:27:15,420 --> 01:27:19,580
like Matt is, is coining terms 
and phrases for testing. 

1526
01:27:19,740 --> 01:27:23,460
I think we need to create some 
more categories because I think 

1527
01:27:23,460 --> 01:27:26,620
people think super shoe and they
think marathon racing shoe for 

1528
01:27:26,620 --> 01:27:28,780
only the Hyper Elite and and 
that's. 

1529
01:27:29,420 --> 01:27:31,660
That's just not it. 
Thousands and thousands of 

1530
01:27:31,660 --> 01:27:35,180
people run marathons every year 
and they're not all running them

1531
01:27:35,180 --> 01:27:39,380
at sub five minute mile. 
So we we just need, we we need 

1532
01:27:39,380 --> 01:27:42,980
to provide more product. 
So and I'd love to hear what you

1533
01:27:43,140 --> 01:27:44,740
you all think about the product 
too. 

1534
01:27:44,780 --> 01:27:47,580
We can do that when we hit. 
Yeah, we'll do that, yes. 

1535
01:27:49,540 --> 01:27:52,100
I would, I would like to add 
that even though, like this is 

1536
01:27:52,100 --> 01:27:54,220
the first time in history that 
people have been super 

1537
01:27:54,220 --> 01:27:56,700
interested in racing flats and 
you have people that are running

1538
01:27:57,020 --> 01:28:00,900
five hour marathons, running 
them in endorphin pro threes and

1539
01:28:00,900 --> 01:28:03,900
elites and things like that. 
And So what I hope and I'm kind 

1540
01:28:03,900 --> 01:28:05,860
of regretting right now and this
is part of the learning 

1541
01:28:05,860 --> 01:28:09,340
experience is going, did we 
create fear in people going oh 

1542
01:28:09,340 --> 01:28:11,380
you know, you're not running 
this pace, maybe you should 

1543
01:28:11,380 --> 01:28:13,470
rethink. 
You know what your shoe choice 

1544
01:28:13,470 --> 01:28:15,790
is and that's really that was 
not the attention. 

1545
01:28:15,790 --> 01:28:18,790
It was concerned about not 
understanding what what is going

1546
01:28:18,790 --> 01:28:20,750
on. 
So I think that is a great way 

1547
01:28:20,750 --> 01:28:22,350
of putting. 
There's more words that need to 

1548
01:28:22,350 --> 01:28:26,350
be added into there is that if 
you know what if you are a 5 

1549
01:28:26,350 --> 01:28:29,390
hour marathoner and you love the
endorphin elite and it feels 

1550
01:28:29,390 --> 01:28:32,870
great for you, go for it. 
Right that we don't want to do 

1551
01:28:32,870 --> 01:28:34,470
this. 
It's just asking the question 

1552
01:28:34,470 --> 01:28:37,900
like if you. 
Also keeping back in mind going,

1553
01:28:37,900 --> 01:28:41,580
hey this is a tool, how is there
any variation of how I might 

1554
01:28:41,580 --> 01:28:44,180
respond to this versus something
else, right? 

1555
01:28:44,300 --> 01:28:47,860
Would a Kvarra Pro be better for
me or does the Endorphin elite 

1556
01:28:47,860 --> 01:28:50,540
feel great and this is my choice
for marathon race day? 

1557
01:28:50,540 --> 01:28:53,700
Or am I finding that the indoor 
that Kvarra Pro is more 

1558
01:28:53,700 --> 01:28:55,860
comfortable, right. 
That's it's it's as you 

1559
01:28:55,860 --> 01:28:59,340
mentioned, creating solutions 
for problems and making products

1560
01:28:59,340 --> 01:29:02,260
that actually match those 
solutions so people can have 

1561
01:29:02,260 --> 01:29:03,380
options to go. 
You know what? 

1562
01:29:03,970 --> 01:29:06,530
You know what? 
I feel OK like I I know it at my

1563
01:29:06,530 --> 01:29:08,130
pace. 
These are both going to do 

1564
01:29:08,130 --> 01:29:09,930
great. 
And right now this one's feeling

1565
01:29:09,930 --> 01:29:11,610
a little bit better. 
I'm going to be that more 

1566
01:29:11,610 --> 01:29:14,010
confident to when I do this race
tomorrow. 

1567
01:29:14,250 --> 01:29:15,770
And because that's the ultimate 
thing, right? 

1568
01:29:15,770 --> 01:29:18,370
Is making people confident, 
making them enjoy this right? 

1569
01:29:18,370 --> 01:29:24,530
So that makes total sense. 
Entirely I You know, the 2021? 

1570
01:29:24,530 --> 01:29:27,450
No, the 20. 
Yeah, the 2021 Boston Marathon. 

1571
01:29:27,450 --> 01:29:30,610
The person that came in last 
before they closed the clock. 

1572
01:29:31,170 --> 01:29:34,410
Was in a pair of super shoes. 
Now you can glean a a lot from 

1573
01:29:35,770 --> 01:29:40,130
from that data point, but it 
does it folds right into what 

1574
01:29:40,130 --> 01:29:43,290
you were saying that in in terms
of okay, well whether they were 

1575
01:29:43,490 --> 01:29:47,330
in the shoes because they wanted
to be faster or whether they 

1576
01:29:47,330 --> 01:29:50,330
just wanted to feel faster or 
whatever the reason was for them

1577
01:29:50,770 --> 01:29:55,010
picking that shoe choice, we 
should be able to offer them 

1578
01:29:55,010 --> 01:29:58,250
responsible perspectives to the 
product so. 

1579
01:29:58,850 --> 01:30:01,650
Well, Andrea and Corey, thanks 
so much for giving us all this 

1580
01:30:01,650 --> 01:30:05,290
time to talk about H What does 
HG stand for? 

1581
01:30:05,410 --> 01:30:06,970
Sorry. 
Oh my gosh, I should have 

1582
01:30:07,010 --> 01:30:10,130
answered that. 
That is, I almost don't want to 

1583
01:30:10,130 --> 01:30:16,010
set the record straight on this.
It's been so fun to listen to 

1584
01:30:16,050 --> 01:30:16,810
it. 
No. 

1585
01:30:16,850 --> 01:30:17,810
Do we just? 
Guess. 

1586
01:30:18,130 --> 01:30:19,610
I will. 
I'll be honest. 

1587
01:30:19,770 --> 01:30:22,890
It stands for high grade, High 
grade. 

1588
01:30:22,890 --> 01:30:26,090
High grade, yeah. 
And I know I've read that. 

1589
01:30:28,440 --> 01:30:34,280
I will also admit internally we 
have alluded to it being a Holy 

1590
01:30:34,280 --> 01:30:37,880
Grail material, but that is not 
an official marketing name. 

1591
01:30:37,880 --> 01:30:40,840
That's not true, that's. 
What BJ has has said before, 

1592
01:30:40,880 --> 01:30:43,000
yeah, you keep our audio guy, 
yeah. 

1593
01:30:43,040 --> 01:30:45,400
You can find it in in chats and 
stuff. 

1594
01:30:45,400 --> 01:30:47,400
It's pretty funny. 
That's why I didn't want to set 

1595
01:30:47,400 --> 01:30:49,520
it straight. 
There's also I've I've even 

1596
01:30:49,520 --> 01:30:52,360
heard someone say it stood for 
Mercury, which is super 

1597
01:30:52,360 --> 01:30:54,360
creative, right? 
Like going into the element 

1598
01:30:54,360 --> 01:30:57,960
list, right? 
SFPS, SF. 

1599
01:30:58,200 --> 01:31:01,600
Masses and like wings on heels. 
That's that's that's pretty 

1600
01:31:01,600 --> 01:31:02,400
awesome. 
That's smart. 

1601
01:31:02,400 --> 01:31:05,600
I wish I'd come up with that. 
But then power and PB probably 

1602
01:31:05,600 --> 01:31:08,320
wouldn't play well into that 
though for a lightweight phone, 

1603
01:31:08,320 --> 01:31:11,910
yeah. 
When there's a peanut butter 

1604
01:31:11,910 --> 01:31:13,430
base to it. 
No, I'm just kidding. 

1605
01:31:14,350 --> 01:31:17,590
Yeah, yeah, high grade. 
HG stands for high grade. 

1606
01:31:17,630 --> 01:31:20,230
Sorry, I hate to hate to let 
y'all. 

1607
01:31:20,230 --> 01:31:21,670
Down. 
No, it's good. 

1608
01:31:22,110 --> 01:31:25,430
We can still call it Holy Grail.
So again, thanks for talking to 

1609
01:31:25,430 --> 01:31:28,070
us about the development of that
film, kind of where you see it 

1610
01:31:28,070 --> 01:31:29,830
fitted in. 
What are some of the fall backs 

1611
01:31:29,830 --> 01:31:32,430
and kind of the differences 
between these films and how they

1612
01:31:32,430 --> 01:31:34,790
can be used? 
And then obviously talking about

1613
01:31:34,870 --> 01:31:38,350
at the end here the Kinvar Pro. 
So again, thanks for giving us 

1614
01:31:38,350 --> 01:31:39,870
your Sunday night if you want 
to. 

1615
01:31:39,990 --> 01:31:41,590
Follow. 
Is there, is there someone 

1616
01:31:41,590 --> 01:31:44,470
people should follow? 
Follow y'all are y'all social 

1617
01:31:44,470 --> 01:31:47,870
people where you've put on gosh 
like stuff about this or not so 

1618
01:31:47,870 --> 01:31:50,630
much? 
I don't have a very robust no 

1619
01:31:51,270 --> 01:31:54,230
Internet footprint. 
No, I'm on LinkedIn. 

1620
01:31:54,310 --> 01:31:57,990
I probably have the world's 
lamest Instagram page. 

1621
01:31:57,990 --> 01:32:02,550
You can find me at a Skidmore 
because I went to Skidmore I. 

1622
01:32:04,270 --> 01:32:06,390
Love it. 
Yeah, you can find me on 

1623
01:32:06,390 --> 01:32:07,270
LinkedIn. 
That's about it. 

1624
01:32:07,270 --> 01:32:08,550
That's. 
Probably why we get along with 

1625
01:32:08,630 --> 01:32:10,110
you. 
Great. 

1626
01:32:10,150 --> 01:32:11,590
LinkedIn. 
Awesome. 

1627
01:32:11,910 --> 01:32:13,430
Well, thanks again for joining 
us. 

1628
01:32:13,430 --> 01:32:17,190
And UM, as with Doctor running, 
our review for the Canvar Pro is

1629
01:32:17,190 --> 01:32:19,750
going to be coming out. 
So you'll be able to find that 

1630
01:32:19,750 --> 01:32:22,470
on our website and everything 
else. 

1631
01:32:22,750 --> 01:32:25,670
As is always the case, you can 
find us on Instagram, Facebook, 

1632
01:32:25,670 --> 01:32:28,230
Twitter, LinkedIn as well and 
Doctor Running. 

1633
01:32:28,590 --> 01:32:29,230
Thanks everybody.